EPTHow to fix TvZ Mech - Page 43
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lew
Belgium205 Posts
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
The blue post about the m/u being 50/50 is really deceptive because obviously zerg can baneling bust or sneak a nydus and win a lot of games until people figure out how to deal with it. Also like you said burrowed roaches are winning some games and they've helped me win my fair share but it's really just terran screwing up and they'll figure out how to deal with this in the future on ladder even at the lower levels. Another thing: did you knew that zerg should always stay 1 base ahead of the terran? This was also the case in sc1. I see a lot of zergs just staying on 2 or 3 bases and then complaining if they lose to a terran having the same amount of bases as them. Yes I've lost a lot of games where I was two bases ahead although not saturated yet. I greatly favored a macro game before and I pretty much always take my third asap if t or p takes their second. I'm starting to lean towards being more aggro and ending the game earlier though just because I haven't seen many games where zerg was able to beat terran able to get to a 200/200 army on two bases than games where zerg went for muta roach. It may be one of those "balanced at high levels of play" things like terran/toss was in SC1, but consistantly beating terran mech as zerg is beyond my abilities. Beating a Zerg WITH mech is absolutely trivial when I play terran though, so I really don't think any of this "stop a-moving noob" applies. Stopping mech is definitely alot harder than playing mech. I can totally accept this if it was the precedent set my blizzard in the first place, but they keep doing stupid s@#t like nerfing void rays, queen speed, roach burrow movement speed (although they made them faster again), and lol at mind controlling ultras because they want to balance the game at lower levels. Maybe it's balanced at the highest and lowest levels of play and everyone else in plat/diamond is screwed until we hopefully figure it out. Maybe the maps are just good for tanks like other people have said and it's more of a map issue. I'll try to shut up until after the tlo thing though. | ||
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lew
Belgium205 Posts
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st3roids
Greece538 Posts
On June 08 2010 02:09 guitarizt wrote: I don't even know why I respond to these anymore but if people would actually read some of the posts in the thread a lot of people are complaining about the game being broken since there's no way for zerg to win past mid game which isn't good for the game if it's just zerg trying to win early and if they dont they lose. Most of us have seen the sen vs tlo, cool vs maka, and demuslim vs sen. They're the only two zergs I know of that are having some success but I haven't seen anyone win consistently in late game yet. All the zerg players complain about not being able to touch mech then it sounds like a bunch of non diamond league people or people who don't play zerg say to abuse mobility which is what you can say for any matchup on nearly any map and no one's posting any reps or vods of them actually doing it which doesn't help my perception of them. Im all for balance , to the degree this can be acheived , however since you watch these games you can clearly see that sen is nothing special at least in these games. It makes so many mistakes like suicide blind drops that fail , not having a single observer to kill the ghost and win ( in the later games ) been 1a , never i mean NEVER takes initiative and plays defensive all the time , never deviates from the same build and so on , yet hes manage fine vs the best terran player atm. Like i said i dont think the point of been a zerg player is giving too much space to terran or toss players to go 200/200 fully upgrade. Heck even idra who loves macro games doesnt let his opponets go 200/200 most of the times attacks and keeps pushing after 100/100 non stop. again im not claiming that everything is balance but it does seem that the best players have picked zerg or toss to play and this is a factor as well. | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
On June 08 2010 02:24 lew wrote: Zergs are also screwing up by 1a moving. Provide me 1 replay where a zerg loses while not 1a moving and I would be surprised. I can provide 1000 replays of zergs losing because they 1a'ed into a siegetank line. Would people stop saying that?^^; You make it sound like the zerg sees sieged up tanks with bio up front and just runs in his army while going back to his base. I'm sure it LOOKS like a-moving but that's because there isn't much a zerg can do with roaches and hydralisks that doesn't involve at some point engaging the army. I flank and dance back and forth every game against mech. All it does is make me lose units gradually without killing any of his tanks. Yes you can try to turn it into a base race by running around the tanks and hope he doesn't have 3 more tanks behind his wall, yes you can try to stall him with air units, but I'd love for you to show me how to micro my ground army to kill tank/bio. I'm not even being sarcastic. If you really know how to micro what kinds of units to kill off a tank/bio army I'll shut up immediately and play said style. So far people know of broodlords. It's not that hard of a question: Terran has tanks and bio -> he's creeping up to your base -> how do you kill that army? "you can never engage that army" is a pretty silly answer for an RTS. | ||
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Meff
Italy287 Posts
Since you fond of replays heres one zerg player won vs mech one and is a sen vs tlo game ( care to find me a better terran player atm btw ? ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTxvXHT9_3g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO52eCNTdRc That's not really mech. It's an heavy air opening, followed by marines to hold off the mutas for a while, with a transition into mech once the game is already lost. As far as I can tell, the final push has two hellions (without preigniter), four thors, two tanks, eighteen marines, one medivac and three vikings. On June 08 2010 02:15 lew wrote: I am a terran player, diamond (which says nothing ofcourse). A bluepost said the stats are 50/50, and that's just because TvZ is sooo imba (sarcasm)... If you lose to mech then: 1) you are 1a-moving 2) your opponent is better, which is actually possible... First off: a stat such as win ratio does not mean that a matchup is balanced. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that terran had a strategy that was overpowered against zerg and one that was overpowered against protoss. This means that they'd raise in ranks (thanks to the power of the race, not thanks to their skill) until the matchmaking system (which is designed to keep everybody at 50% WR) put them against opponents that are so much better than them that the win rates stay at 50%. I'm not claiming that this is what is happening, I'm just saying that extracting balance information out of that particular stat is a misuse of statistics. | ||
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lew
Belgium205 Posts
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Cashout
115 Posts
On June 06 2010 05:28 authoritah wrote: when is it going to be aired? | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On June 08 2010 04:02 lew wrote: It's okay for me if they nerf tanks. Ball vs Ball will just return. As if those little nerfs will do anything... Really, how much has been changed from where everyone said Mech is totally useless to the point where everyone said it's totally IMBA? It's definitely more about ppl learning how to get away with certain BO's, so I'm sure if TLO is sayin' he found a way to beat Mech with Zerg, it's easily possible... Just learn to play instead of whining. | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
On June 08 2010 04:40 kickinhead wrote: As if those little nerfs will do anything... Really, how much has been changed from where everyone said Mech is totally useless to the point where everyone said it's totally IMBA? It's definitely more about ppl learning how to get away with certain BO's, so I'm sure if TLO is sayin' he found a way to beat Mech with Zerg, it's easily possible... Just learn to play instead of whining. Err, tank splash changed, terran anti-air changed and most importantly roaches changed. I'm not saying that there isn't a way to deal with tanks, but saying that it's people "learning how to play" that all of a sudden made mech viable is silly. I've been trying mech every patch. It went from useless to "overpowered" without me improving my skill much. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
I used to be a low diamond terran player, but lately I have been praciticing other races. Protoss came very easy to me, and while I still think I make a lot of mistakes, this race is so easy to play. Im like 7-0 with protoss against plat/gold players in patch 15. With zerg however I am around 10-20. And I struggle against both prtoss and terran. It seems to me the only way I can win with zerg is to have twice as many expansions as the terran player, and even then I have trouble taking out his base when he has a few Siege tanks to defend. I would like to see the siege tank splash dmg nerfed from 50% to 35 % or something like that. This could be combined with a reduce in the time it takes to siege/unsige from 4 sec to 3 sec, so that they would still be usefull. This will slightly increase the mobility of the tanks, but make them weaker in a battle. They will still be extremely strong and terran will win most of the even battles. But when zerg is like 25%+ food ahead he will likely be the favoruite to win. Ultra should get a slight health boost so they would not get countered by units like mauruders and zealots. Probably to around 550 + a reduce in unit size. This should make zerg have much better chances against both protoss and terrans. Maps like desert oasis or scrap station should be changed or removed though, as it is too difficult for terran to defend the muta harass. | ||
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tubs
764 Posts
And TLO just rapes. Big difference is that instead of how Sheth had 90-100 supply in workers, TLO only had around 60-70 supply, giving TLO a larger 200 supply army. He also cut queens (didn't have a queen at every hatch) to free up more supply for his army. Finally at some expansions he only saturated gas workers and didn't bother saturating minerals. That freed up more supply for his army. He didn't bother with nydus worms. Didn't really worry too much about drops. Just straight up fought a war of attrition on multiple fronts, weeding down the terran army until he won. Anybody watching it should note that Jinro made nearly the maximum number of tanks and thors possibly with his 200/200 supply. If he made air such as vikings, he would have had even less tanks and the ultralisks that TLO kept massing would have even been stronger versus his expansions. | ||
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PhoenixM1
United States178 Posts
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PhoenixM1
United States178 Posts
On June 08 2010 11:57 tubs wrote: So Day9 is currently doing episode 131 on TLO's macro zerg versus Jinro's terran mech. Both play late game 200/200 supply on prenerf tank patch. That's right - on the patch this whiney thread was complaining about. And TLO just rapes. Big difference is that instead of how Sheth had 90-100 supply in workers, TLO only had around 60-70 supply, giving TLO a larger 200 supply army. He also cut queens (didn't have a queen at every hatch) to free up more supply for his army. Finally at some expansions he only saturated gas workers and didn't bother saturating minerals. That freed up more supply for his army. He didn't bother with nydus worms. Didn't really worry too much about drops. Just straight up fought a war of attrition on multiple fronts, weeding down the terran army until he won. Anybody watching it should note that Jinro made nearly the maximum number of tanks and thors possibly with his 200/200 supply. If he made air such as vikings, he would have had even less tanks and the ultralisks that TLO kept massing would have even been stronger versus his expansions. So TLO beat Jinro once. Grats to TLO now maybe we should look at the bigger picture eh? | ||
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
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st3roids
Greece538 Posts
On June 08 2010 12:10 DooMDash wrote: The bigger picture being people complaining about a match up thats fine? How do we fix this? it never about balance is about i want my cookie back , always . Its so retarted because a build is considered op the "top" uber leet zerg players switching to terrans i wonder for how many patches till they switch back to zerg or toss . Aint that funny or what. ps now that terran mech strat is beatable how terrans will win vs zerg ? | ||
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Trok67
France384 Posts
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
On June 08 2010 12:27 Trok67 wrote: terran mech is beatable ? that's new It's maybe a new SC2 concept, but think about all the crazy things that were considered good back in SC1 early days... most of them don't even exist anymore. It had nothing to do with balance, and everything to do with new things / a different way of playing the game. | ||
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wintergt
Belgium1335 Posts
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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