EPTHow to fix TvZ Mech - Page 5
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ROOTdrewbie
Canada1392 Posts
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jusayO
Canada60 Posts
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:38 drewbie.root wrote: it is a fact, mech is 100% broken imba gg zerg cant win lategame, anyone who disagrees is stupid. Spoken like a champ. Mech is insane broken. Raelcun's solution actually makes sense however... And would make warp prisms useful for something other than warp in harass. On June 03 2010 10:40 jusayO wrote: ^ Drewbie for President. I'll second that notion. | ||
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pyr0ma5ta
United States458 Posts
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D3lta
United States93 Posts
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Zozo
Brazil2579 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:20 Ruthless wrote: Anyone who says that this isnt broken has never tried playing against it. I can promise that. It is broken, but the AI change doesn't fix it, it only limits the use of tanks in TvP. Zerg needs a tool or a vulnerability to play with. Any of these would help it: Tank siege time, sensor tower price/tech, thor splash research/cannon free, corruptor attack animation(PDD free), ultra armor upgrade changed to reduce aoe based dmg, corruption also reducing attack speed, viking acceleration nerf... | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:35 Senx wrote: Biggest issue in my eyes is actually maps. Maps are way too small and has way to many corridors and no room for the zerg to manover his forces. This is a bad way to look at it. While partially true, we shouldn't be forced to have every map have insanely wide open areas. A choked up map should give Terran a slight advantage maybe and be part of the map picking strategy in a series. A choked up map shouldn't be an instant lose for zerg and a complete 'ban' as a map layout. With BW the game was insanely well balanced that it'd be insane to try and correct map dependencies. With SC2 it's still very early in its career and rather than just accept problems like these we should work towards fixing the racial issues so that we can have a wider variety of balanced maps. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:21 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: @avilo Do the math on nydus worms please, to build multiple nydus worms at the same time you need ANOTHER nydus network. Each network is 200/200 each worm is 100/100 so each worm in a multiple nydus worm strategy is 300/300 to make 5-10 worms at the same time you're talking 1500/1500 or 3000/3000 you have to be kidding me. @raelcun, do the math on late game please. Suiciding 10,000/10,000 resources is less than building 2k/2k worth of nydus worms and then being able to do damage. Use your head, and get out of the mindset, "omg imba." I know mech can be frustrating to see or play against if you do not like that style, but that does not mean you throw basic math and logic out the window solely to prove your religious point about mech being imba. On June 03 2010 10:22 shlomo wrote: Lolol @ avilo so 1000/1000 for 10 worms, hoping 1 will get through to spit out units one at a time? rofl. A likely story bro. You have not used nydus a lot I bet. You can place multiple worms down with multiple nydus networks. And you can also unload from multiple worms simultaenously. And also, it cost a bit more than 1000/1000 for 10 worms, but it is cheapter than stubbornly suiciding 10,000/10,000 worth of resources into a siege tanked up ramp.  On June 03 2010 10:23 EnderW wrote: Indeed, all these people crying "USE NYDUS WORMS" have obviously not played both sides of this matchup. It's really really sad how many people use such terrible logic to support their points. I now also play Zerg, so I do in fact play both sides of the match-up. Nydus worms are amazing. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:38 drewbie.root wrote: it is a fact, mech is 100% broken imba gg zerg cant win lategame, anyone who disagrees is stupid. Is teamliquid really allowing such posts as these now? Or is it OK since it's beta? | ||
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:44 pyr0ma5ta wrote: If you let the Terran get 200/200 full upped, you deserve to lose. The 200/200 mech army is unbeatable in BW too, but it's not imba either. Saying these kind of statements is telling people that they have to go for allins or timing attacks to beat mech and if you rush to broodlord corruptors you're open to timing attacks.. tell me how this is viable. On June 03 2010 10:45 avilo wrote: @raelcun, do the math on late game please. Suiciding 10,000/10,000 resources is less than building 2k/2k worth of nydus worms and then being able to do damage. Use your head, and get out of the mindset, "omg imba." I know mech can be frustrating to see or play against if you do not like that style, but that does not mean you throw basic math and logic out the window solely to prove your religious point about mech being imba. You have not used nydus a lot I bet. You can place multiple worms down with multiple nydus networks. And you can also unload from multiple worms simultaenously. And also, it cost a bit more than 1000/1000 for 10 worms, but it is cheapter than stubbornly suiciding 10,000/10,000 worth of resources into a siege tanked up ramp. I now also play Zerg, so I do in fact play both sides of the match-up. Nydus worms are amazing. Show me a replay of this working bro, if there are tanks sieged in his main you can't fit 10 worms into his main and there are standing forces waiting to kill the worms. qxc had tanks in his main just hanging out anyway this wouldnt work. | ||
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Karma_
Canada40 Posts
Late game zerg is so weak, even against protoss. They just need to make a high tier unit that's actually decent at busting this - presumably the ultralisk - but that unit just dies too hard to rauders or thors unless micro'd flawlessly with infestor which is pretty tough and expensive to do. Sieges in general just reach this critical mass where they become extremely powerful. It's not a gradual increase like in sc1 where even large numbers of sieges could be busted if you out macro. Conversely 1-2 sieges is actually pretty weak unlike sc1 where 1-2 was actually decent | ||
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Trok67
France384 Posts
On June 03 2010 09:51 Zozo wrote: People still seem to think that walking into 15 siege tanks in sc1 was possible, it wasn't, even with the poor AI. The problem is that the overall tank dmg is higher, and reducing attack speed would pretty much limit TvP and make TvT even longer. I think every zerg whining just has all his units on group1, and can't be assed to spread his mutas to kill the thors. The solution would be increase siege/unsiege time by one second, then again, as soon as the good players start spreading their mutalisks, mech will return to total trash. On a obvious side note: For every thor made, less tanks are in the field. 10 spread mutas rape thors. Overseers delay thors. Play. LOL it's so fun to listen to somebody who have never played zerg at all. PLEASE show me a replay of you killing 3/4 thors with mutas with your AWSOME mutas micro. I just can't wait to see that :D | ||
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:46 avilo wrote: Is teamliquid really allowing such posts as these now? Or is it OK since it's beta? TL.net is probably allowing it because it is true. | ||
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MoMaN-
France202 Posts
But the fact is if the Terran play perfect Meca with timing and without mistake and the Zerg do the same, Terran win! :p Terran can do some mistakes more of zerg and he still win, and if Zerg do some mistake he is so behind! I dont know if you can understand! Its not impossible to win vs Terran, because when you are zerg you wan do perfect game and no mistake and hope terran do some mistakes!! :p | ||
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skYfiVe
United States382 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:48 Wr3k wrote: TL.net is probably allowing it because it is true. This. When one of the best Terrans on the server can say this, it probably isn't so much trolling sir. | ||
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:48 Wr3k wrote: TL.net is probably allowing it because it is true. Drewbie is a top level terran player so he's giving credit to the thread in general so yes this post is acceptable. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:27 Logo wrote: I know hahaha. I laughed out loud at the comment of building 10 nydus worms. Especially since they can all be killed pretty quickly, especially since the Zerg has to wait to see which nydus network to put all of his units in. Hahahahahaha. The thing about a lot of this discussion is that people aren't thinking about the stuff you don't see. The Mech build offers a TON of flexibility way more so than the zerg. So a lot of these theorycrafted solutions may be cute and work say once, but Terran can quickly adapt to deal with how these threats play out. Um, it's posts like yours that make ME lol. You are one of the stubborn crowd that you think you know everything about the game and have decided something is 100% undoubtedly imba when you do not even know how a nydus even works. Before you talk, try using the thing. It's a global tunnel network, like tunnels in zero hour. The main nydus network building, you can build multiple of, those are the only ones that matter if you lose all of the main ones, then the network is down. You put all of your units into any nydus worm or main network building and your units are available from any worm/nydus network on the map. It is global. You can unload from anywhere on the map. It's not a "cute" thing, it's something Zergs are not currently doing or abusing enough. | ||
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:33 EnderW wrote: I will agree that the games of Sheth vs QXC are not optimal depictions of this matchup A) Sheth didn't play very well in the late game B) Sheth didn't use all his options well. But I have seen/played tons of high level games where the players DID play well late game, and DID get corruptors/brood lords w/ 3/3 air and 3/3/3 ground, and still had similar results. Alright, so... i'll make it easier for you if you wanna go by names, i'll list the zergs that agreed on stream / interview or this thread and other private chats that terran mech is TOO strong, as well as terrans, and people against, just to be a bit less biased, im trying to take into account every top player i've talked to or heard their personal opinion on this matter: WHO AGREE THAT MECH IS TOO STRONG LIST: Zerg: Dimaga, MoMaN, IdrA, Artosis, Sheth, Machine, CatZ, SUGGY, SLush Terran: Drewbie, Gretorp, CauthonLuck, Joseki, MorroW Protoss: HuK, sKyfive, KiWiKaKi Note: It's Dimaga's Birthday, happy B-day Dmytro! I hope this is a nice gift for you! WHO DISAGREE THAT MECH IS TOO STRONG LIST: Zerg: Terran: LzGaMeR, Louder, Avilo Protoss: if you are a top player or know the position of a top player in this matter and want to be added to either one of the lists plz send me a PM, I just thought this would give the rest of you guys a broader understanding of what most top players think. I was just talking to Dimaga and he will help me to update this list tomorrow with some european names, I asked him for all opinions he can gather and to be as unbiased as possible. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:46 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Saying these kind of statements is telling people that they have to go for allins or timing attacks to beat mech and if you rush to broodlord corruptors you're open to timing attacks.. tell me how this is viable. Show me a replay of this working bro, if there are tanks sieged in his main you can't fit 10 worms into his main and there are standing forces waiting to kill the worms. qxc had tanks in his main just hanging out anyway this wouldnt work. Yo, "bro," show me a replay of top Zergs even DOING IT. None have yet developed it into their game. People are so hard headed it's amazing. You guys that are saying "OMG THAT DOESN'T WORK" have barely even developed it or worked it into your game or seen anyone that has developed it to a good level. So many people here sound exactly like the naysayers in SC BW when it first was developing, "ARBITERS ARE STUPID, TOO MUCH GAS NO ONE WOULD EVER USE IT FOR MASS RECALLS AROUND THE MAP, are you stupid?! That's way too much gas and not viable!!!!" "OMG, corsairs?! Lofl they suck!!" "Protoss fast expand?! LOL you're a noob that'll never work, you're gonna get rolled." So many people in this thread are being like that. Try it, and develop it b4 you start saying the "that doesn't work." | ||
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Zozo
Brazil2579 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:47 Trok67 wrote: LOL it's so fun to listen to somebody who never have played zerg at all. PLEASE show me a replay of you killing 3/4 thors with mutas with your AWSOME mutas micro. I just can't wait to see that :DCause you can get 4 thors before 10 mutalisks right? You can't pull off 200/200 3/3 7 factories in 10 minutes. Let's not pretend it's NR20 If you watch the games you are going to see how vulnerable lz was while teching. | ||
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