EPT
How to fix TvZ Mech - Page 2
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South Africa3627 Posts
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Zozo
Brazil2579 Posts
The problem is that the overall tank dmg is higher, and reducing attack speed would pretty much limit TvP and make TvT even longer. I think every zerg whining just has all his units on group1, and can't be assed to spread his mutas to kill the thors. The solution would be increase siege/unsiege time by one second, then again, as soon as the good players start spreading their mutalisks, mech will return to total trash. On a obvious side note: For every thor made, less tanks are in the field. 10 spread mutas rape thors. Overseers delay thors. Play. | ||
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deth
Australia1757 Posts
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
On June 03 2010 09:51 Zozo wrote: People still seem to think that walking into 15 siege tanks in sc1 was possible, it wasn't, even with the poor AI. The problem is that the overall tank dmg is higher, and reducing attack speed would pretty much limit TvP and make TvT even longer. I think every zerg whining just has all his units on group1, and can't be assed to spread his mutas to kill the thors. The solution would be increase siege/unsiege time by one second, then again, as soon as the good players start spreading their mutalisks, mech will return to total trash. On a obvious side note: For every thor made, less tanks are in the field. 10 spread mutas rape thors. Overseers delay thors. Play. You don't seem to understand whats going on here lategame with mass vikings and ravens with huge amoutns of energy mutas and corruptors are useless seeing as point defense drone will nullify most of the shots of the mutas/coprruptors and he will even be able to HSM your flyers as well if you're in bad position. If you're going air you CANT let him get ravens or you just lose so it becomes a timing attack almost allin to rush corruptor broodlord and if it doesntw rok you lose. | ||
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deadbutmoving
United States66 Posts
I had a match where I outmanuvered the terran player in every aspect: economy, upgrades, harass, and he still kills me with mech. When I watched the replay he was at 150 food while I was 200 food maxed and his tanks, Helions, and Thors still raped me. I think the only solution is mass drop, nydus worm, or broodlords. It seems that when a terran army reaches critical mass the zerg player cannot fight without broodlords. Even on open ground where the zerg player can outflank the terran player, It's still almost impossible to beat a mass terran mech army with ground units alone. WE NEED DARK SWARM BACK!!! | ||
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NovaTheFeared
United States7226 Posts
On June 03 2010 09:51 Zozo wrote: People still seem to think that walking into 15 siege tanks in sc1 was possible, it wasn't, even with the poor AI. The problem is that the overall tank dmg is higher, and reducing attack speed would pretty much limit TvP and make TvT even longer. I think every zerg whining just has all his units on group1, and can't be assed to spread his mutas to kill the thors. The solution would be increase siege/unsiege time by one second, then again, as soon as the good players start spreading their mutalisks, mech will return to total trash. On a obvious side note: For every thor made, less tanks are in the field. 10 spread mutas rape thors. Overseers delay thors. Play. You're not talking about the same phase of the game as the topic. | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
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Craton
United States17256 Posts
On June 03 2010 09:51 Zozo wrote: People still seem to think that walking into 15 siege tanks in sc1 was possible, it wasn't, even with the poor AI. Are you just talking about ZvT? You could also do things like swarm, dropping on the tanks while moving units in, and a quick switch to muta tech to pick off a bunch of tanks to make that push in easier. You can't accomplish any of that versus modern SC2 mech at that point in the game. | ||
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EnderW
United States170 Posts
On June 03 2010 09:51 Zozo wrote: People still seem to think that walking into 15 siege tanks in sc1 was possible, it wasn't, even with the poor AI. The problem is that the overall tank dmg is higher, and reducing attack speed would pretty much limit TvP and make TvT even longer. I think every zerg whining just has all his units on group1, and can't be assed to spread his mutas to kill the thors. The solution would be increase siege/unsiege time by one second, then again, as soon as the good players start spreading their mutalisks, mech will return to total trash. On a obvious side note: For every thor made, less tanks are in the field. 10 spread mutas rape thors. Overseers delay thors. Play. hmmm.. Troll? or just someone who doesn't take the time to read threads and understand the discussion? | ||
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skYfiVe
United States382 Posts
You will no longer just win fights as mech by sieging all 20 tanks at once and instagibbing an army. It will depend on superior positioning and being able to spread your tanks. It will come down to superior skill and micro, such as having to micro templar, ghosts, or infestors. It will come down to superior spread and positioning, not purely unit composition. This wouldn't effect early game hardly at all, as people will learn to spread tanks and they will be the same as tanks in SC1, and that is the way everyone wanted them at the start of beta... so why complain now when they are OP. | ||
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ROOTdrewbie
Canada1392 Posts
On June 03 2010 09:57 Senx wrote: So why not abuse the immobility of T mech with doom drops and nydus worms? watch the replays man | ||
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Myown
Canada8 Posts
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jusayO
Canada60 Posts
Possible changes I've been thinking of that aren't ludicrous are either removing splash damage from the Thor's javelin's, or removing/reducing the bonus to light if they must keep splash damage. It's really not fair to zerg to have the token mutalisk as vulnerable in the air, as their ground is vulnerable to the tanks. This would also help phoenixes/warp prisms as I am quite biased, you know... Looking out for my own interests too! Of course this would just force the terran into making more vikings or marines, but I feel if zerg players can get that one chance to break the line it would be okay. In those QXC vs Sheth replays, and LZ's games I have watched TvZ lately I've noticed sensor towers are what makes it almost impossible to break with burrow play. Do you feel removing this structure to add back in the element of surprise would be an equal fix? It's really not fair in my mind to not have to scout to know when you're being dropped, or when your opponent is burrowed. | ||
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Zozo
Brazil2579 Posts
On June 03 2010 09:55 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: You don't seem to understand whats going on here lategame with mass vikings and ravens with huge amoutns of energy mutas and corruptors are useless seeing as point defense drone will nullify most of the shots of the mutas/coprruptors and he will even be able to HSM your flyers as well if you're in bad position. If you're going air you CANT let him get ravens or you just lose so it becomes a timing attack almost allin to rush corruptor broodlord and if it doesntw rok you lose. On June 03 2010 09:56 NovaTheFeared wrote: You're not talking about the same phase of the game as the topic. It's just like broodwar, if you let a Terran get 18 vessels, how are you going to win? You have to keep that number down with scourge. | ||
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
#1 for me would be the way siege tanks scale. Siege tanks get a whopping +5 per upgrade according to liquipedia. That's insane when compared to the scaling of armor. A siege tank hitting 5 targets will deal 60 more damage total (12 per target) in a 3/3 vs 3/3 fight compared to a 0/0 vs 0/0 fight. So not only do tanks hit a critical mass late game they also scale at a pretty crazy rate. Something like +3/upgrade would probably balance out how ridiculous they can become late game without ruining their effectiveness overall that much. The second problem, in my mind, is how well and how quickly Terran can turtle up vs air harass. I'd look into seeing what could be done to increase the missle turret build time. I don't know about other zergs, but the problem to me with muta harass is that it's so expected and obvious off one base. An enemy Terran can turret up soooo fast (25s per turret) to support their thor defenses. Also Terran can move out across the map at an alarming rate due to how fast the turrets come down. Slowing down their crawl would give Zerg more time to harass them. Potentially a third problem might be the Thor build rate. A thor is 6 pop in 60 seconds, the fastest of the massive units. A thor is also the more well rounded of all the massive units with no real weakness due to its range and ability to hit air and ground. It can also be repaired and blah blah blah. Anyways if a Thor built in a little longer, like 65s or 70s it might just open up more time for the Zerg to get some stuff done. The time at which thors come out make factories EXTREMELY efficient population wise. In the time it takes to make 12 food of Thors the terran could only have made 8 of siege tanks, ~5.7 of vikings, or 8 pop of Hellions (without reactor). The point is that for a high pop unit Thors are very time efficient for the amount of pop the take up. On the zerg side I'd probably consider lowering Nydus worm spawn time to make them a little easier to get off. A Terran paying attention is going to have a really easy time stopping any worms from spawning. If the nydus spawn time was 16 or 18 seconds I think they'd be a little more serious of a threat. Anyways more so than the specific examples I think we just need some baby steps more than anything. Drastic changes like this are going to either make Terran useless or have wide rippling effects that we don't want. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
I tried 3/3 corrupter vs 3/3 vikings and corrupters win. Without PDD the corrupters win in a straight up battle which is good since they are only AA and vikings have their mode shift and range working for them. You run corrupter brood lord around and force vikings away from tanks where infestors can fungal growth and neural parasite ravens. edit: last thing. Increase corrupter speed slightly so vikings can't kite them so efficiently. | ||
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
to those of you who think that you have a good winning rec against Mech or that you have trouble with zerg even when using mech, that's just skill difference, in high level games a really good terran will leave you little to no chance of winning mid into lategame and after that, period. | ||
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Doso
Germany769 Posts
I remember at the beginning of the beta everyone was like OMFG Tanks suck, now they have 10 hp more and everyone is like OMFG imba. | ||
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
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