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How to fix TvZ Mech - Page 2

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Subversion
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
South Africa3627 Posts
June 03 2010 00:49 GMT
#21
I have been having this exact problem. I was under the impression that if Zerg has more bases and tons of cash, they're unbeatable. I thought it was up to the other races to PREVENT Zerg from getting supreme macro. But Terran mech just absolutely roflstomps any army. Thors and vikings and even marines are too damn strong against air, and siege tanks are a sick joke
Zozo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Brazil2579 Posts
June 03 2010 00:51 GMT
#22
People still seem to think that walking into 15 siege tanks in sc1 was possible, it wasn't, even with the poor AI.

The problem is that the overall tank dmg is higher, and reducing attack speed would pretty much limit TvP and make TvT even longer.

I think every zerg whining just has all his units on group1, and can't be assed to spread his mutas to kill the thors. The solution would be increase siege/unsiege time by one second, then again, as soon as the good players start spreading their mutalisks, mech will return to total trash.

On a obvious side note: For every thor made, less tanks are in the field. 10 spread mutas rape thors. Overseers delay thors. Play.
EGM guides me
deth
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Australia1757 Posts
June 03 2010 00:55 GMT
#23
Well thinking about it more I think that the problem isn't in the balance or interaction of zerg forces and terran mech, its the layout of maps which ultimately end up favoring mech in battles. LT is probably the best map in the pool right now for zerg because they have so many options for army movement, while the rest of the maps really force zerg to engage mech armies in the most ludicrous positions.
Raelcun
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States3747 Posts
June 03 2010 00:55 GMT
#24
On June 03 2010 09:51 Zozo wrote:
People still seem to think that walking into 15 siege tanks in sc1 was possible, it wasn't, even with the poor AI.

The problem is that the overall tank dmg is higher, and reducing attack speed would pretty much limit TvP and make TvT even longer.

I think every zerg whining just has all his units on group1, and can't be assed to spread his mutas to kill the thors. The solution would be increase siege/unsiege time by one second, then again, as soon as the good players start spreading their mutalisks, mech will return to total trash.

On a obvious side note: For every thor made, less tanks are in the field. 10 spread mutas rape thors. Overseers delay thors. Play.


You don't seem to understand whats going on here lategame with mass vikings and ravens with huge amoutns of energy mutas and corruptors are useless seeing as point defense drone will nullify most of the shots of the mutas/coprruptors and he will even be able to HSM your flyers as well if you're in bad position. If you're going air you CANT let him get ravens or you just lose so it becomes a timing attack almost allin to rush corruptor broodlord and if it doesntw rok you lose.
deadbutmoving
Profile Joined May 2010
United States66 Posts
June 03 2010 00:56 GMT
#25
Yea Im having the same problem vs terrans. Tanks are OP.

I had a match where I outmanuvered the terran player in every aspect: economy, upgrades, harass, and he still kills me with mech. When I watched the replay he was at 150 food while I was 200 food maxed and his tanks, Helions, and Thors still raped me.

I think the only solution is mass drop, nydus worm, or broodlords. It seems that when a terran army reaches critical mass the zerg player cannot fight without broodlords. Even on open ground where the zerg player can outflank the terran player, It's still almost impossible to beat a mass terran mech army with ground units alone.

WE NEED DARK SWARM BACK!!!
"When in doubt, ATTACK!" George S. Patton
NovaTheFeared
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States7226 Posts
June 03 2010 00:56 GMT
#26
On June 03 2010 09:51 Zozo wrote:
People still seem to think that walking into 15 siege tanks in sc1 was possible, it wasn't, even with the poor AI.

The problem is that the overall tank dmg is higher, and reducing attack speed would pretty much limit TvP and make TvT even longer.

I think every zerg whining just has all his units on group1, and can't be assed to spread his mutas to kill the thors. The solution would be increase siege/unsiege time by one second, then again, as soon as the good players start spreading their mutalisks, mech will return to total trash.

On a obvious side note: For every thor made, less tanks are in the field. 10 spread mutas rape thors. Overseers delay thors. Play.


You're not talking about the same phase of the game as the topic.
日本語が分かりますか
Senx
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Sweden5901 Posts
June 03 2010 00:57 GMT
#27
So why not abuse the immobility of T mech with doom drops and nydus worms?
"trash micro but win - its marine" MC commentary during HSC 4
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17256 Posts
June 03 2010 00:57 GMT
#28
On June 03 2010 09:51 Zozo wrote:
People still seem to think that walking into 15 siege tanks in sc1 was possible, it wasn't, even with the poor AI.


Are you just talking about ZvT?

You could also do things like swarm, dropping on the tanks while moving units in, and a quick switch to muta tech to pick off a bunch of tanks to make that push in easier. You can't accomplish any of that versus modern SC2 mech at that point in the game.
twitch.tv/cratonz
EnderW
Profile Joined March 2010
United States170 Posts
June 03 2010 00:58 GMT
#29
On June 03 2010 09:51 Zozo wrote:
People still seem to think that walking into 15 siege tanks in sc1 was possible, it wasn't, even with the poor AI.

The problem is that the overall tank dmg is higher, and reducing attack speed would pretty much limit TvP and make TvT even longer.

I think every zerg whining just has all his units on group1, and can't be assed to spread his mutas to kill the thors. The solution would be increase siege/unsiege time by one second, then again, as soon as the good players start spreading their mutalisks, mech will return to total trash.

On a obvious side note: For every thor made, less tanks are in the field. 10 spread mutas rape thors. Overseers delay thors. Play.


hmmm.. Troll? or just someone who doesn't take the time to read threads and understand the discussion?
Learn from the mistakes of others, because you wont live long enough to make them all yourself.
skYfiVe
Profile Joined April 2010
United States382 Posts
June 03 2010 00:58 GMT
#30
I don't understand everyone's complaints about the implementation of an AI that results in overkill. It is the exact same as Starcraft 1.

You will no longer just win fights as mech by sieging all 20 tanks at once and instagibbing an army. It will depend on superior positioning and being able to spread your tanks. It will come down to superior skill and micro, such as having to micro templar, ghosts, or infestors. It will come down to superior spread and positioning, not purely unit composition.

This wouldn't effect early game hardly at all, as people will learn to spread tanks and they will be the same as tanks in SC1, and that is the way everyone wanted them at the start of beta... so why complain now when they are OP.
"1baseiwa"
ROOTdrewbie
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1392 Posts
June 03 2010 00:58 GMT
#31
On June 03 2010 09:57 Senx wrote:
So why not abuse the immobility of T mech with doom drops and nydus worms?

watch the replays man
www.root-gaming.com
Myown
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada8 Posts
June 03 2010 00:59 GMT
#32
Realcun is totally right, and i also think that your idea is good enough, even by massing and timing your attack, tanks still dont waste their shot anymore so zerg has basically not a lot of options and if you add those Raven's guided bombs it's hopeless. It quite funny tho I just spoke about those 2 matchs like 2hours ago in another post =) I like the idea.
jusayO
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada60 Posts
June 03 2010 00:59 GMT
#33
Raelcun, I agree with you and have been saying it myself. You can't even use broodlords to make tanks friendly fire and destroy themselves at the moment, and to me... That just isn't right.

Possible changes I've been thinking of that aren't ludicrous are either removing splash damage from the Thor's javelin's, or removing/reducing the bonus to light if they must keep splash damage. It's really not fair to zerg to have the token mutalisk as vulnerable in the air, as their ground is vulnerable to the tanks. This would also help phoenixes/warp prisms as I am quite biased, you know... Looking out for my own interests too!

Of course this would just force the terran into making more vikings or marines, but I feel if zerg players can get that one chance to break the line it would be okay.

In those QXC vs Sheth replays, and LZ's games I have watched TvZ lately I've noticed sensor towers are what makes it almost impossible to break with burrow play. Do you feel removing this structure to add back in the element of surprise would be an equal fix? It's really not fair in my mind to not have to scout to know when you're being dropped, or when your opponent is burrowed.
무릎의 춤이 더 즐겁게 훨씬 때 스트리퍼가 울고있다
Zozo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Brazil2579 Posts
June 03 2010 00:59 GMT
#34
On June 03 2010 09:55 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 03 2010 09:51 Zozo wrote:
People still seem to think that walking into 15 siege tanks in sc1 was possible, it wasn't, even with the poor AI.

The problem is that the overall tank dmg is higher, and reducing attack speed would pretty much limit TvP and make TvT even longer.

I think every zerg whining just has all his units on group1, and can't be assed to spread his mutas to kill the thors. The solution would be increase siege/unsiege time by one second, then again, as soon as the good players start spreading their mutalisks, mech will return to total trash.

On a obvious side note: For every thor made, less tanks are in the field. 10 spread mutas rape thors. Overseers delay thors. Play.


You don't seem to understand whats going on here lategame with mass vikings and ravens with huge amoutns of energy mutas and corruptors are useless seeing as point defense drone will nullify most of the shots of the mutas/coprruptors and he will even be able to HSM your flyers as well if you're in bad position. If you're going air you CANT let him get ravens or you just lose so it becomes a timing attack almost allin to rush corruptor broodlord and if it doesntw rok you lose.



On June 03 2010 09:56 NovaTheFeared wrote:

You're not talking about the same phase of the game as the topic.


It's just like broodwar, if you let a Terran get 18 vessels, how are you going to win? You have to keep that number down with scourge.
EGM guides me
Raelcun
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States3747 Posts
June 03 2010 01:01 GMT
#35
Oh oh thanks a lot now tell me how to use a scourge in sc2
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-03 01:03:56
June 03 2010 01:02 GMT
#36
I think there are a few things that could be done that would be less extreme than this suggestion.

#1 for me would be the way siege tanks scale. Siege tanks get a whopping +5 per upgrade according to liquipedia. That's insane when compared to the scaling of armor. A siege tank hitting 5 targets will deal 60 more damage total (12 per target) in a 3/3 vs 3/3 fight compared to a 0/0 vs 0/0 fight. So not only do tanks hit a critical mass late game they also scale at a pretty crazy rate. Something like +3/upgrade would probably balance out how ridiculous they can become late game without ruining their effectiveness overall that much.

The second problem, in my mind, is how well and how quickly Terran can turtle up vs air harass. I'd look into seeing what could be done to increase the missle turret build time. I don't know about other zergs, but the problem to me with muta harass is that it's so expected and obvious off one base. An enemy Terran can turret up soooo fast (25s per turret) to support their thor defenses. Also Terran can move out across the map at an alarming rate due to how fast the turrets come down. Slowing down their crawl would give Zerg more time to harass them.

Potentially a third problem might be the Thor build rate. A thor is 6 pop in 60 seconds, the fastest of the massive units. A thor is also the more well rounded of all the massive units with no real weakness due to its range and ability to hit air and ground. It can also be repaired and blah blah blah. Anyways if a Thor built in a little longer, like 65s or 70s it might just open up more time for the Zerg to get some stuff done. The time at which thors come out make factories EXTREMELY efficient population wise. In the time it takes to make 12 food of Thors the terran could only have made 8 of siege tanks, ~5.7 of vikings, or 8 pop of Hellions (without reactor). The point is that for a high pop unit Thors are very time efficient for the amount of pop the take up.


On the zerg side I'd probably consider lowering Nydus worm spawn time to make them a little easier to get off. A Terran paying attention is going to have a really easy time stopping any worms from spawning. If the nydus spawn time was 16 or 18 seconds I think they'd be a little more serious of a threat.

Anyways more so than the specific examples I think we just need some baby steps more than anything. Drastic changes like this are going to either make Terran useless or have wide rippling effects that we don't want.
Logo
knyttym
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States5797 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-03 01:15:17
June 03 2010 01:03 GMT
#37
Have point defense drone not affect corrupters. Since terran mech rapes everything on the ground allow zerg some air control with corrupter broodlord.

I tried 3/3 corrupter vs 3/3 vikings and corrupters win. Without PDD the corrupters win in a straight up battle which is good since they are only AA and vikings have their mode shift and range working for them. You run corrupter brood lord around and force vikings away from tanks where infestors can fungal growth and neural parasite ravens.


edit: last thing. Increase corrupter speed slightly so vikings can't kite them so efficiently.
ROOTCatZ
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
Peru1226 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-03 01:07:02
June 03 2010 01:03 GMT
#38
I DO DECLARE, hopefully you can post the interviews where we interviewed some of the best zergs outside of korea, and some of the better terrans even agree with us. Added to that impressive list that was interviewed during the KOTH event that we hosted ( Machine, Sheth, Dimaga, MoMaN and a few more including my humble opinion) + the fact that Artosis & IdrA agree as well... pretty much the Zerg Elite that are able to agree with us (as they all speak english) are all having the same problems, some people might think that there are ways to beat late mech, and yeah you can... but you have to outplay your opponent HEAVILY, MoMaN vs Lzgamer is a great example of everything going right for zerg and playing SUPER smart and still losing... its a simple fix and it shouldn't break any other matchups for Terran, I was discussing this with gretorp as well early and he agrees with this and even thinks this would make the TvT matchup a lot more fun, as right now marauders are barely viable TvT cause tanks crush everything.

to those of you who think that you have a good winning rec against Mech or that you have trouble with zerg even when using mech, that's just skill difference, in high level games a really good terran will leave you little to no chance of winning mid into lategame and after that, period.
Progamerwww.root-gaming.com
Doso
Profile Joined March 2008
Germany769 Posts
June 03 2010 01:04 GMT
#39
It's not broken, no need to remove something from the AI just to make Zerg players feel better.
I remember at the beginning of the beta everyone was like OMFG Tanks suck, now they have 10 hp more and everyone is like OMFG imba.
Raelcun
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States3747 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-03 01:04:58
June 03 2010 01:04 GMT
#40
I'll try to compile all those interviews later CatZ I have to liek do soem video magic to splice them all together.
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