lol, avilo's been trying to push this crappy nydus thing since the stream on sunday. so far ive seen him get shot down by idra multiple times and now you guys. I think he wants all the pros and mods to hate him (very comical to watch).
Anyways, i think sensor towers play a large role in the strength of mech (as does the smart shot thing). When the terran goes a mech build, the thing to exploit is immobility through harassment and drops and nydus and all that jazz. But with the large range of sensor towers, the terran has plenty of time to spot and intercept any attempt at harassment. so the zerg is left with fail harassment attempts and and army that he can't directly engage.
I also think increasing the tank supply may help the zerg situation, because since roaches got the supply nerf, zerg players have half as big an army to take on the tank ball.
The QXC vs Sheth match was for the LAST PATCH. As for the LZ vs Moman match in this patch, did Moman explore Ultralisks?
Furthermore, it should be like BW where a 200/200 Terran army should beat a 200/200 P and 200/200 Z army because Terran are IMMOBILE in SC2. Zerg have Nydus and the overlords that you HAVE TO build can be used for DROPS - as opposed to Medivacs which are wasted resources for a drop if a Terran goes Mech.
LZ was absolutely right when he said a Zerg player HAS TO UTILIZE MOBILITY to beat a Terran player and ditto for Protoss. When the top Korean pros switch over to SC2, they will ABUSE the mobility of Z and P and at that time, we will all be asking Blizzard to nerf Z and P because pro Korean Z and P players will have a field day with T players.
On June 03 2010 09:14 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Okay before any of you start crying about omg it's not broken I was going to upload more replays but I kept getting errors on half of them so watch these two and try not to claw your eyes out.
Okay moving on, terran mech in the lategame once they get full upgrades and sieged up and fully 200/200 with ravens and energy for spells you CAN NOT beat it. Now the thing is there should be no unbeatable strategy there should be no point at which you have to GG without fighting because you can't win. There needs to be a way to break a strategy with good control or good macro and after Sheth wound up suiciding a combined total of almost 20k minerals and 10k gas it's clear that macro isn't the way to go.
Okay anyways I don't want this to be an argument on if terran mech is broken or not but obviously it probably will so I'm going to move on to my possible fix. I think one of the major factors is not the stats on the terran mech as it works quite well against protoss and if there is an actual nerf to mech then it breaks tvp mech viability and a buff to zerg ground breaks zvp. This is the dilemma people facing this have had to think about for quite a while. The solution is actually amazingly simple once I thought of it.
Remove this:
Siege tanks have a smart AI that refuses to overkill targets, it sounds good it seems like a great idea at first because oh tanks wound up wasting a lot of shots vs fast units like speedlings in broodwar. But the problem is without the tanks wasting shots it's not possible for a zerg ground army to get into position to kill anything more than just a few tanks. Again watch the replays if you disagree, I think that if the smart AI is removed so that tanks waste shots a zerg will still take HEAVY losses but if they're in a situation that Sheth was in where he was ridiculously far ahead in macro able to rebuild 200/200 armies in less than a minute it would then be possible to break the mech.
TL;DR remove the smart targetting on siege tanks so that they are forced to waste shots on the first wave of zerg units and maybe a zerg in dominant macro position can break mech without actual balance changes.
edit:
As for zerg being more mobile and having to abuse the immobility of Mech watch this replay MoMaN did an excellent job of abusing Lz and playing mind games sniping expansions and doing a great job of using drops fake drops nydus worm everything people are always saying the zerg has to do to beat mech and he STILL lost...
Early and mid game is fine for mech its when you get to the 200/200 it with a good mix of raven/thors and viks and turrents/seansor towers around the map is when it becomes imba vs zerg. Best way to fix it is to fix the unit that is made to be good vs tank and shit the ultra right now its broken as hell.
Also the come on the sheth-vs-qxc match everyone knows sheth was not even trying anymore from the start of those matchs watch the 10000 mistakes and fuck up he does. He was playing like a wood legue player sry can't use those for anything lol. T
he Moman guys harsment was fail and late /shrug his first attack / harsment was at 18 min when he was 200/200 and the terran was 180 sry thats not what people are talking about harsment. Moman showede you what not to do cause he used no creep spread taht was good no early drops no early mutas picking at sides no early burrow raochs. but anyways ya
Ultras need to be fix to fix the late game problem at 200/200. Make them highest threat target in game make it so they take no splash dmg only direct hits will hurt them. Thick armor and all. Also make it so that spalsh does not happen off any hits that hit them. Soak tank dmg tanks allways hit them first win. Also help zerg with colos 10 colos get some ultras.
On June 03 2010 11:06 Wayra wrote: I think tanks are underpowered, they should have an alternate fire mode that shoots bullets for close range and air like in halo. They should make missile turrets also attack ground and have +3 armor so Terrans can more easily defend against mutas. In addition give ghost a special ability like...nerve gas that kills any biological unit in range, kinda like the emp except for zergs. In addition have vikings be able to plant aerial mines, that work as spider mines but only affect air units. Oh and have the nuclear bombs dropped by banshees and increase the radius and power of nuclear bombs so that it 1 hit any biological unit. Because common, radiation should be lethal to all biological units...in addition, make nuclear craters radioactive for 273 sec. Meanwhile, no creep can grow on it.
I also think that helions are too week, infernal lighter should come already upgraded. Biological units that get hit are on fire. While on fire, it cannot attack. Units on fire slowly dies. In addition, units that are on fire can spread the flames to adjacent units and structures. I think that will add an interesting aspect to the micro for zergs. Have the helions a larger spread or least attack faster. But that would make it slightly imba, so maybe scratch the last idea. Instead have helions fire do extra dmg buildings. I mean it makes sense cause fire should destroy buildings.
Oh and protoss voidrays are wayyyy too imbalanced, have it's range nerf to 2, and make it slower than the viking by .2112
On June 03 2010 09:51 Zozo wrote: People still seem to think that walking into 15 siege tanks in sc1 was possible, it wasn't, even with the poor AI.
The problem is that the overall tank dmg is higher, and reducing attack speed would pretty much limit TvP and make TvT even longer.
I think every zerg whining just has all his units on group1, and can't be assed to spread his mutas to kill the thors. The solution would be increase siege/unsiege time by one second, then again, as soon as the good players start spreading their mutalisks, mech will return to total trash.
On a obvious side note: For every thor made, less tanks are in the field. 10 spread mutas rape thors. Overseers delay thors. Play.
LOL it's so fun to listen to somebody who never have played zerg at all. PLEASE show me a replay of you killing 3/4 thors with mutas with your AWSOME mutas micro. I just can't wait to see that :D
Cause you can get 4 thors before 10 mutalisks right? You can't pull off 200/200 3/3 7 factories in 10 minutes. Let's not pretend it's NR20
If you watch the games you are going to see how vulnerable lz was while teching.
haha, no against 10 mutalisk 1 thor with some marines or 2 thor will be enough. And if the terran see youre doing a ton of mutalisk, he'll himself make a ton of thors/viking. And since thors are also very good against ground there is no risk he will waste any money with that.
Isn't that the whole point? make him waste gas on stuff other then tanks?
Less tanks, stronger lings.
no, firstly youre wasting way more ressource with mustalisk which will be completely useless since he has 2-3 thors and secondly he doesnt waste gaz at all since thor do pretty well against every zerg ground and air units. He will have less tank but more thors and you will definitely have a lot less of ground army
And how is he going to move out if he has to leave his thors to defend scvs? build 20 turrets early game? If he does, then you will have way more forces.
Lol you just don't get it, you were saying that you can beat thors with mutalish, i just answered that this is NOT THE CASE, i don't say mutalisk can't harass scv, but you can't relay on them to beat his army that's all. Yes you can make mutalisk, it will delay him a bit since he will have to make 2-3 towers and 1 or 2 thors, but that's ALL. Maybe it will buy you some time to get an economical advantage over him but that's pointless since you just can't beat his army.
To all the people who think that all top zerg players suck hardly and they are super skilled and have found the way to beat easily mech terran. Plz play zerg, beat a strong mech terran and give us the replay. If the mech terran doesn't make a lot of mistake, and iwithout some kind a rush/all-in it's just impossible to beat him.
On June 03 2010 10:44 pyr0ma5ta wrote: If you let the Terran get 200/200 full upped, you deserve to lose. The 200/200 mech army is unbeatable in BW too, but it's not imba either.
Saying these kind of statements is telling people that they have to go for allins or timing attacks to beat mech and if you rush to broodlord corruptors you're open to timing attacks.. tell me how this is viable.
Sorry, but you're wrong. There's any number of vulnerable points in mech TvZ. If you're not Nydus Worming and harassing and being everywhere on the map, you deserve to lose to a 200/200 army. If you're losing to max mech, you should play the other side of the matchup, find where it's weak, and find the way to hit there as Zerg. As a Terran player who mechs in every matchup nowadays, I have lost in many ways to Zerg, but never if I am allowed 2 bases and to get a third running. Use tunneling claws, Mutas, lings, Infestors, Nydus's, whatever. Just don't let me sit and pump out of 8 facs with 2 spinning Armory, because if you do, I have no pity for your impending loss.
On June 03 2010 09:27 dethrawr wrote: Its the same in SC1, if zerg lets terran get 200/200 mech zerg will lose.
I don't think its really imbalanced, zerg needs to start using mech's immobility against them with nydus/doom drop play.
Also your 'fix' would be awful :l
I agree sir. People need to actually get good and stop crying Imba on things they can't beat. For instance, today I saw ret's stream he jus got tunneling for roaches and massed them along with banelings vs mech. Then tunneled his little cute roaches on to Terran's mineral lines. After that it was gg.
This is the root problem of ZvT balance discussion. All of these suggested "counters" for mech builds are quirky one-offs that require your opponent to be semi-afk / just plain worse than you at the game. Burrowed roaches, sneaky nydus, sneaky infestors, mineral line drops are not viable counters to mech - they're supplemental tactics to what should be an actual counter.
On June 03 2010 11:09 StarcraftMan wrote: The QXC vs Sheth match was for the LAST PATCH. As for the LZ vs Moman match in this patch, did Moman explore Ultralisks?
Furthermore, it should be like BW where a 200/200 Terran army should beat a 200/200 P and 200/200 Z army because Terran are IMMOBILE in SC2. Zerg have Nydus and the overlords that you HAVE TO build can be used for DROPS - as opposed to Medivacs which are wasted resources for a drop if a Terran goes Mech.
LZ was absolutely right when he said a Zerg player HAS TO UTILIZE MOBILITY to beat a Terran player and ditto for Protoss. When the top Korean pros switch over to SC2, they will ABUSE the mobility of Z and P and at that time, we will all be asking Blizzard to nerf Z and P because pro Korean Z and P players will have a field day with T players.
.
Lol seriously did you see how badly ultralisk died against tanks ? Do you really think 50 hp will make a huge difference ? and stop talking about mobility...
MoMan played he just screwed up a big confrontation, never put drones on the second extractor at his natural (after he destroyed the tank on the ledge) and didn't put drones on the second gas at his third for quite a long time (the minerals were about mined out). It wasn't surprising that he was gas limited on his reinforcements given he was essentially operating on two bases worth of gas.
Again, though, MoMan never attacked once until 18 minutes into the game, and I think that might be the strategic issue. That's about the same timing as Sheth, actually, who didn't really attack until around 18 minutes had passed. And that was great against bio balls, since your maxed army will trade pretty evenly with the ball, and then you can reinforce vastly more quickly than the terran.
Ok there's some faults in your logic so let's start from the top.
On June 03 2010 10:53 avilo wrote: Yo, "bro," show me a replay of top Zergs even DOING IT. None have yet developed it into their game. People are so hard headed it's amazing.
You guys that are saying "OMG THAT DOESN'T WORK" have barely even developed it or worked it into your game or seen anyone that has developed it to a good level.
I assume you mean you amazing Nydus attack. Here's a hint: When you can't find a top pro that will even TRY to do a strat it's more than likely it's because it sucks.
You guys that are saying "OMG THAT DOESN'T WORK" have barely even developed it or worked it into your game or seen anyone that has developed it to a good level.
Again the strat is not viable. Sure 2k/2k is less than 10k/10k. But you're forgetting something: 12k/12k > 10k/10k. O yeah especially when the whole strategy is about as viable as a mass recall is. Seriously Mass Recall might even be more viable than 20 nydus networks.
O yea here's another problem with that strat: This. It will beat your 20 nydus worms 11 times out of 9. O wait...
So many people here sound exactly like the naysayers in SC BW when it first was developing, "ARBITERS ARE STUPID, TOO MUCH GAS NO ONE WOULD EVER USE IT FOR MASS RECALLS AROUND THE MAP, are you stupid?! That's way too much gas and not viable!!!!"
Yes 1999 was a very different time however.
"OMG, corsairs?! Lofl they suck!!"
I really hope you are not insuating that you have made a discovery like Bisu did. Cause you can stop right there.
"Protoss fast expand?! LOL you're a noob that'll never work, you're gonna get rolled."
Really.....
So many people in this thread are being like that. Try it, and develop it b4 you start saying the "that doesn't work."
Remind me why ANYONE should listen to you over any of the baller ass players in this thread saying it's broken.
It's broken.
Sure doing magic tricks with Nydus worms may be fun but there's like 2000 different ways you can get rolled doing that.
can you explain me what i must do before this 18 minuts with my units vs terran tower all his base and got so many tank and thor and viking on siege? Öô waiting
In your game vs LZgamer why didn't you tech switch to mutas slightly before or right when you killed his thors. There was nearly 5mins of time in which he had little anti air (2 turrets, a viking or two) with 5 - 6 mutas, which you could have easily afforded you would have won.
Also in my experience, 50 - 20 Diamond using speedlings early on really helps limit the amount of siege tanks they can afford because they may have to get more rines. That way when you push out with your initial hydras you wont suddenly face 4 fast siege tanks.
On June 03 2010 11:19 koppik wrote: MoMan played he just screwed up a big confrontation and never put drones on the extractor at his natural (after the tank destroyed it) and didn't put drones on the second gas at his third for quite a long time (the minerals were about mined out). It wasn't surprising that he was gas limited on his reinforcements given he was essentially operating on two bases worth of gas.
Again, though, MoMan never attacked once until 18 minutes into the game, and I think that might be the strategic issue. That's about the same timing as Sheth, actually, who didn't really attack until around 18 minutes had passed.
so you're suggesting an all in timing attack as the answer? terran is not unbeatable early and early-mid game that's not really the issue at all, but if terran is a good enough player, like LzGaMeR or QXC and just afk and take 3 bases, its really really close to unstoppable, IdrA is switching to P just for PvT, that should open some people's eyes...
there's someone saying "all zerg just switch to T find out the weakpoint and switch back" why do we need to do that, when most Top Terran players agree with us already.
200/200 terran should be able to beat 200/200 zerg
200/200 terran should not be able to kill 10+ waves of 200/200, with minimal losses.
Also, with workers, a maxed army of roaches/ultras/infestors which Sheth used mainly came out to about a 3000~ mineral cost and 1000-2000 gas cost. That is pretty damn low in my books.
This is kinda funny. Tanks are no better than they were in broodwar.
Not to mention, seeing as how i watched every one of those games, BOTH sheth and Moman ran 200/200 armies of ground units into a TANK LINE 3 TIMES. 3 TIMES. YES ILL SAY IT AGAIN FOR EFFECT 3 TIMES. (sheth was more like 5 times)
Had either one of the literally switched to make 15 mutas (particularily momans game) they would have crushed those terran builds. LZ never had more than 3 thors on the field and 2-4 vikings, they were almost alwasy out protecting his tanks. With mutas MoMan could have raped LZ's bases/expansions, if he moved his thors back, he could have raped his tanks. Same thing for Sheth.
he buillt 4 Ultra armiers, 4! and they all died against tanks REPEATEDLY. He could have teched to broodlords 3 times over, but instead stayed with Ultras. Zerg has fantastic air units, why Zerg dont seem to want to build them, and want to continually run GROUND UNITS into sieged tanks and crying imbalance is beyond me.
On June 03 2010 11:14 pyr0ma5ta wrote: As a Terran player who mechs in every matchup nowadays, I have lost in many ways to Zerg, but never if I am allowed 2 bases and to get a third running. Use tunneling claws, Mutas, lings, Infestors, Nydus's, whatever. Just don't let me sit and pump out of 8 facs with 2 spinning Armory, because if you do, I have no pity for your impending loss.
Dude, even with 4-5 bases at 200/200 zerg have no reliable way to bet a close to 200/200 T that only have 2 bases.
Tunneling claws are nullified by a single missile turret at your ramp.
Nydus is very difficult if you spread out ANY buildings or units in your base (lets not talk about the sensor towers lol, are you aware that nydus can only be placed if you have vision at the spot?. Main use of nydus is mobility between own bases/islands, you can only do it into an enemy base if the owner screws up majorly.
Infestors? You can maybe stick up some vikings if you are lucky, but the range issues are still there.
Mutas vs Turret and Thors are useless that's the problem i think the best way of my game! in this game, its i must pick my island, make broodlord and take my gaz on the 4th 5th expand! :p But its hard because he can make viking really quick, but another think i must do a spire for switch 8 mutas or soemthing for playing with the timing! :p
But please dont say "before 18min you need to attack" because that is impossible!
lzgamer says moman should have dropped his main after he killed his two expos and moman/zerg should have abused their mobility more. wtf? moman did a fake drop, cut lz's army in half, killed two expos, and he has to defend his base after because a million +3 attack tanks could have killed zerg's entire base and why trade 4 bases for 2? How many drops do you want zerg to do? The problem is with 10 or more siege tanks zerg can't get enough roaches out to kill them and everything melts to siege tanks. I think the only way moman could have won is by transitioning to broodlord/corrupter while doing the roach attack because it's the only thing that can touch upgraded tanks.
On June 03 2010 11:25 Jinsin5 wrote: 200/200 terran should be able to beat 200/200 zerg
200/200 terran should not be able to kill 10+ waves of 200/200, with minimal losses.
I heartily agree with this statement.
I feel that at this point, Zerg does not posses the tools to reliably break late game mech armies. Its not that terran needs a huge nerf, its just they need an adjustment so that this particularly strategy is toned down slightly.
EPT
show me a replay of you killing 3/4 thors with mutas with your AWSOME mutas micro. I just can't wait to see that :D![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dNA17.jpg)
i think the best way of my game! in this game, its i must pick my island, make broodlord and take my gaz on the 4th 5th expand! :p But its hard because he can make viking really quick, but another think i must do a spire for switch 8 mutas or soemthing for playing with the timing! :p 
