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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
On June 03 2010 11:44 kNyTTyM wrote: what? When did I ever say a 200/200 hydra ultra army would beat a maxed tank line? Because that is exactly what happened in those games that everyone is up in arms about, And I am suggesting the EXACT same thing would have happened in Broodwar. | ||
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lu_cid
United States428 Posts
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
On June 03 2010 11:47 lu_cid wrote: Alright I watched the moman vs. lz game yesterday on the stream, and at the time I was agreeing with the commentators saying that moman outplayed his opponent and still lost. However after watching the replay I don't believe he really outplayed lz. He had SO many gas geysers in the second half of the game that weren't even mining, and lz had very minimal anti air in his army during his final push into 6. I honestly think a broodlord/muta switch would have dominated lz, which would have been simple if moman had been mining gas as he should have been (and built a spire at some point) This is entirely the point I was trying to make, Thank you | ||
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tubs
764 Posts
Sure, letting a terran get to 200 supply full of tanks, thors, vikings, and ravens is going to just rape zerg ground armies - and that issue needs to be addressed somehow. But more aggressive zergs like Cool (aka Fruit Seller) and Sen destroy mech terrans well before it even gets to that point. So you really can't just do a global nerf. If the early and mid game are made weaker for the terran the top korean and chinese zergs will dominate terrans even more. Late late game needs to be addressed though. | ||
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ROOTdrewbie
Canada1392 Posts
On June 03 2010 11:42 Half wrote: Nerf Thors. The issue is that Thors are pretty much the only Hardcounter in the game, maybe along with Infestors against Mothership, which is irrelevent. You're a scenario where 2 Thors invalidate any amount of Mutalisks, and as soon as Terran gets Thors up, combined with freakin 24 damage missle turrets, Mutalisks are no long valid unit choices. Mechs main vulnerability is it's mobility. Currently, the means for zerg to exploit this are too limited. Specifically, because of the Viking and the Thor. A single thor at a base renders muta harass impossible. You literally need upwards to fifteen mutalisks to kill a single thor supported by SCV's. 1500/1500 investment, and many of them will die. With 2 missle turrets, it becomes impossible. i like this guy's idea ;D maybe just take away thor's splash dmg, and see what happens | ||
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Lefnui
United States753 Posts
On June 03 2010 09:27 dethrawr wrote: Its the same in SC1, if zerg lets terran get 200/200 mech zerg will lose. It's a problem regardless of whether or not Terran has reached 200 food. That's hardly even relevant. | ||
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
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skYfiVe
United States382 Posts
On June 03 2010 11:54 iG.CatZ wrote: nah drew if you do that then muta go from not-viable to almost imbalanced and shuts down mech completely as you'd need marines to play against it limiting terran's options. What do you think of something such as a multishot. Maybe the thor should shoot at a max of 2-3 targets. | ||
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
On June 03 2010 11:57 skYfiVe wrote: What do you think of something such as a multishot. Maybe the thor should shoot at a max of 2-3 targets. hrmm that could be a fix to some extend | ||
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koppik
United States676 Posts
On June 03 2010 11:49 tubs wrote:In the 17173 world cup, zergs DOMINATED the tournament (it was an all zerg final) even against mech terrans. The difference was those zergs didn't sit around twiddling their thumbs for 20 minutes doing nothing but macro to 200 supply. They actually attacked throughout the game. Also, they built a lot more mutalisks EVEN against an opponent pumping thors. Exactly. The real issue here is that "20 minute no rush" was pretty much ideal to deal with MMM, but it's the worst idea to deal with mech. So zerg's comfortable with dealing with MMM have to use a totally different strategy against mech.Also, add that 7 out of 8 of the Ro8 in the ASM#2 were zerg. The one lone(r) terran got knocked out in that round. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On June 03 2010 11:53 Lefnui wrote: I'm glad that you compiled a list of opinions. Far too often people fail to realize that most of the stronger players agree that Terran Mech is imba. You mean most of the stronger European/American players. There's very little knowledge of Asian players' opinions on the subject (perhaps Artosis/Idra can shed some light), and 6 of the 8 Korean players in the Ro16 of the 17173.com World Cup were Zergs. | ||
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Zozo
Brazil2579 Posts
On June 03 2010 11:57 skYfiVe wrote: What do you think of something such as a multishot. Maybe the thor should shoot at a max of 2-3 targets. Would that include a a change to full pure dmg also? I think it could work, but could lead TvT even harder towards tank/viking. | ||
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Deusen
United States2 Posts
On June 03 2010 11:29 MoMaN- wrote: Mutas vs Turret and Thors are useless that's the problem  i think the best way of my game! in this game, its i must pick my island, make broodlord and take my gaz on the 4th 5th expand! :p But its hard because he can make viking really quick, but another think i must do a spire for switch 8 mutas or soemthing for playing with the timing! :p But please dont say "before 18min you need to attack" because that is impossible!  LZ expanded at 10 minutes. He had 4 marines in a bunker for AA, 0 turrets. You had Lair, hydra den, 8 hydras, ranged upgrade coming, and 600 banked gas. Now, what if those 8 hydras were 8 mutas? Sure LZ could have scouted it and built some thors or vikings, but at the cost of tanks. I do think mech needs to be toned down, or zerg needs a better counter, but the LZ game isn't a great display. QXC had a more balanced composition and growth. What is up with all the complaints about thors? Didn't Sen destroy 4 thors w/ nothing but mutas? | ||
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skYfiVe
United States382 Posts
On June 03 2010 12:02 Zozo wrote: Would that include a a change to full pure dmg also? I think it could work, but could lead TvT even harder towards tank/viking. I'm really not sure. Just as a general concept. Their dps could stay the same, as it would still be a large amount of damage. | ||
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Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
On June 03 2010 11:49 tubs wrote: I've watched these replays and I've also watched the 17173 world cup streams. The 17173 world cup wasn't full of chumps either. We're talking the best korean, asian, and european players from all over the world. Comparing the two, there is a drastic difference. In the 17173 world cup, zergs DOMINATED the tournament (it was an all zerg final) even against mech terrans. The difference was those zergs didn't sit around twiddling their thumbs for 20 minutes doing nothing but macro to 200 supply. They actually attacked throughout the game. Also, they built a lot more mutalisks EVEN against an opponent pumping thors. Sure, letting a terran get to 200 supply full of tanks, thors, vikings, and ravens is going to just rape zerg ground armies - and that issue needs to be addressed somehow. But more aggressive zergs like Cool (aka Fruit Seller) and Sen destroy mech terrans well before it even gets to that point. So you really can't just do a global nerf. If the early and mid game are made weaker for the terran the top korean and chinese zergs will dominate terrans even more. Late late game needs to be addressed though. Those terrans didn't realize how strong mech was, and didn't turtle up midgame in order to get to the late game. If they did, they would have been unstoppable. This thread isn't about how Z can never beat T, it's that if T follows a defensive strategy for a while, losing map control while massing more mech, there is a point where Z has no chance to beat them. And in the spirit of the thread's title, "How to fix TvZ Mech" (without screwing up the other matchups, you have to keep in mind the thing about TvP as well: Terran, when going mech, is strong/unstoppable late game against protoss. Same theory- if they turtle up and take their time, they can slowly beat you down while you can't even get close. And it doesn't help that EMP makes it even easier for them to do that. I've been complaining about this for about a month now... Alright, so how to fix it: The main problem stems from the tank and the viking. Simply put, siege mode gives bonus damage, makes upgrades way too strong, does not overkill, while the reduced firing rate literally is not a penalty at all since terran's response is just to get more and more tanks (since the critical mass is so much stronger in SC2 than SC1) as they have no reason to fight earlier on. Also, the viking is too strong anti-air, has too high range that no other air unit can match (or ground to air for that matter), and is too inexpensive. I think a nerf is in order for both units, or at least a strengthening of the responses of the other races since we don't have stasis/dark swarm to force things back into our favor. My suggestions: Tank: have the unsieged damage increase, but have the sieged damage decrease in comparison. I know, it sounds counter-intuitive, but besides changing the mechanics of the game or buffing the other two races, this seems easiest. The tank is fine when not in siege mode, and probably should get a buff too. However, in siege mode, the insane range is just ridiculous, and the way the units clump up in this game make them even stronger. Viking: decrease their firing range. Simply put, the corruptor and the phoenix can't do anything since the viking can just sit above the terran player's turrets and/or thors laughing while the other races' ground-to-air can't approach due to tanks. Sure, corruptors have the devourer ability and the phoenix can lift units up so it seems like they are stronger in comparison to vikings that have assault mode which does no significant damage. However, the phoenix is too fragile late game, especially with EMP, to get into close range and use that ability, and zerg has no follow up DPS that can actually approach the terran ball to make use of the corruptor ability. Simply put, they are nice to have mid game but once it gets late game, where balance is most essential, they do absolutely squat. These units either need a range buff, an HP buff, a damage buff, or honestly anything else that will let them be useful at that point of the game (which conveniently, is what Blizzard likes- every unit to have a purpose, except the archon). That's all. | ||
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Trok67
France384 Posts
On June 03 2010 12:01 TheYango wrote: You mean most of the stronger European/American players. There's very little knowledge of Asian players' opinions on the subject (perhaps Artosis/Idra can shed some light), and 6 of the 8 Korean players in the Ro16 of the 17173.com World Cup were Zergs. 17173 cup was before the roach nerf and thor buff as far as i remember. Moreover most terran player played bio at this time. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On June 03 2010 11:51 drewbie.root wrote: i like this guy's idea ;D maybe just take away thor's splash dmg, and see what happens I've advocated making the Thor into a limited AntiAir Tank. Thats basically what it is right now, but it's in tank mode ALL THE TIME. I'd advocate giving it a costly ability (~100 mana) that causes it to play it's current weapons warm up ability, then blow the living shit out of any air units in a ~6 range radius with mass Valkyrie style missles. I've literally had 12 mutalisks die just from accidentally getting 7-8 range away from two thors. It's normal attack would do bonus damage versus structures, to kind of emulate its demolition capabilities. It's stunning attack would be removed, because it's an ability that is only useful against thors and other ultralisks. One is pointless, the other is completely counterproductive. Does the ultralisk really need an ability specifically made to counter it and only it? (I play random, and used to enjoy Terran the most. Now I like Zerg...games way more fun when you're race's standard play is currently highly problematic so you have to play out of the box to win) | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On June 03 2010 12:04 Trok67 wrote: 17173 cup was before the roach nerf and thor buff as far as i remember. Moreover most terran player played bio at this time. Patch 12 (Roach nerf) went live May 13. The playoffs for the World Cup began on the 19th. | ||
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mskaa
Denmark155 Posts
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Santriel
Belgium33 Posts
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