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On June 03 2010 09:37 r33k wrote:
The problem isn't really the tanks being too smart, their faster firing rates is what really allows them to be less akin to crucial mistakes once they reach critical mass.
In BW you could time pincer attacks to strike between two volleys, in SC2 the shot cooldown will already be over when you'd send the second wave in to flank them.
ZvT right now pretty much revolves around broodlords/baneling drops because they are the two only units that are able to exploit the rapid splash damage of the tanks, and quite frankly I don't have any thoughts on how to prevent this. Critical mass will always feel imbalanced while playing.
I think the biggest problem in the critical mass stage is that units in sc2 seem to be so much bigger then sc1 units and the area in the center of the map seems to be so much more compact. I think that if the maps were changed to have larger center areas flanking would be easier.
I think changing the AI on the tanks would make going mech vs protoss far more difficult. The 1/1/1 terran build I see is becoming much more popular vs toss. Because if you decide to rush for a MM ball and the toss goes for early void rays or dt you can get screwed so hard.
I'm not gone say that tank mech is op or not. Definately at critical mass the terrans have a great advantage. But the zerg player needs to keep the presure up on the terrans expansions ect. There is a limit to how much mech you can build off of one base (possibly your natural too) if your mech army suffers damage before the mass stage.
Against Toss the main armored units that your tanks will be shooting are: stalkers, immortals(that have lost their shields), and collosus. This leaves the following ground units temp, dt, probes, and lots. A toss player with mass lots usually encouages the terran to get burner hellions so their tanks to spend alot of time shooting them. Sentries are weak and templar hopefully will get sniped by your tanks or emped. DT shouldnt be a problem for the rest of your army as long as you get detection.
My suggestion is if zvt is that broken on critical mass to make the following 2 changes. Change the siege tank's damage from 60 to something like 30damage +30 armored or 40+20 armored or something like that. Also change the ultralisk to where it ignores +vs armored stuff. Which possibly help in pvz as well. It shouldn't change tvp too much as the tank will still be doing full damage to the things it usually shoots at. Against the zerg it will still kill lings fast as either 30(s) or 40(s) will kill them. Roaches being considered armored will take it full force. Hydras having low health and slow should still get melted away pretty fast. However the ultralisk running in first would be taking a measly 30-40 damage which would allow them to tank for the rest of your units.
Possibly a similar change to the thor's ground attack as well so it still kills armored units just as fast but against light not so much.
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Thor has a smart cast ability also just like the tank. Vikings have a multi cast that is likely smart cast as well. To be fair practically every unit in the game has a smart cast ability. I don't believe a tank nerf will do too much to break the synergy of a mech-bio ball. Since most, if not all the units, have a form a smart cast and they multi-cast. At least the OP is going in the right direction though with requesting a change to make units more micro dependant.
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I am a crap player over-all, but this fix seems a little off to me. I dislike lowering the AI for any reason on a practical level. Why not make it easier for Zerg to exploit the immobility of the Mech army? Nerf sensor tower range seems like it could have some effect since drops and Nydus Canals would be more viable. I am just a crap Silver League player though, so I won't pretend to know if that would have any larger consequences, or if it would be enough.
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On June 03 2010 12:03 Antimage wrote:Those terrans didn't realize how strong mech was, and didn't turtle up midgame in order to get to the late game. If they did, they would have been unstoppable. This thread isn't about how Z can never beat T, it's that if T follows a defensive strategy for a while, losing map control while massing more mech, there is a point where Z has no chance to beat them. Shouldn't we wait until a terran actually makes a build that's really shown to be unstoppable before worrying about the possibility of it? I guess TheLittleOne's TvZ build was thought to be "invincible" for a little while, before he lost to Sen and IdrA.
I mean, I think IdrA's examples for mech imbalance were Sen vs. TLO and Check vs Rainbow. The zerg won both of those match-ups, though, so they aren't the greatest examples.
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fu antimage, p has these things called carriers
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On June 03 2010 12:21 koppik wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 12:03 Antimage wrote:Those terrans didn't realize how strong mech was, and didn't turtle up midgame in order to get to the late game. If they did, they would have been unstoppable. This thread isn't about how Z can never beat T, it's that if T follows a defensive strategy for a while, losing map control while massing more mech, there is a point where Z has no chance to beat them. Shouldn't we wait until a terran actually makes a build that's really shown to be unstoppable before worrying about the possibility of it? I guess TheLittleOne's TvZ build was thought to be "invincible" for a little while, before lost to Sen and IdrA. I mean, I think IdrA's examples for mech imbalance were Sen vs. TLO and Check vs Rainbow. The zerg won both of those match-ups, though, so they aren't the greatest examples.
idra's example was stupid because he said those terrans should never take a game off those zergs but TLO took the first game off sen with a bunker rush, didnt even use mech. Just eing idra made a bad example doesnt change the fact ZvT is imba
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On June 03 2010 12:21 koppik wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 12:03 Antimage wrote:Those terrans didn't realize how strong mech was, and didn't turtle up midgame in order to get to the late game. If they did, they would have been unstoppable. This thread isn't about how Z can never beat T, it's that if T follows a defensive strategy for a while, losing map control while massing more mech, there is a point where Z has no chance to beat them. Shouldn't we wait until a terran actually makes a build that's really shown to be unstoppable before worrying about the possibility of it? I guess TheLittleOne's TvZ build was thought to be "invincible" for a little while, before he lost to Sen and IdrA. I mean, I think IdrA's examples for mech imbalance were Sen vs. TLO and Check vs Rainbow. The zerg won both of those match-ups, though, so they aren't the greatest examples.
i used those examples because there havent been many high level public games with terrans using pure mech yet, in those 2 examples terrans executed mech poorly vs zergs who were way better than them and still won games, but if you just look at the gameplay itself its pretty apparent there are problems.
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I don't understand why people freak out about how a timing window being the only opportunity to win against the opponent is bad. If a build has a huge flaw, abuse it >.>
The replays showed a Zerg player letting a Terran player max out their armies. What happens when you attack before then?
If I see a replay where EVERYTHING is tried by the Zerg player (and all perfectly executed), and cannot beat a Terran player, I'll concede that Mech is imba. Until then, I'm going to assume that people like to turtle a bit too much (or what have you).
Also, if it is indeed a problem, wouldn't buffing Zerg units be a much better fix than saying "lolol Siege Tanks sux nao"? They were terrible before the splash fix; what makes you think that killing their AI will make them not imba, but still usable?
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After watching those replays I thought on commenting a couple of things that IMO are the reason why Terran mech feels so strong, and to a point it actually is (I play Terran btw, nothing great ofc, so not really disagreeing with people that commented already like Gretorp etc).
1) The biggest disadvantage of the mech army (immobility) is really not that great when you have 10 sensor towers to monitor where all of the attacks are coming and act accordingly. I think they got overlooked during the beta. Also all 3 attacking units you usually have in the mix (tanks, thors, vikings) have this huuuge attack range which sometimes is abused. Maybe you should be able to build only a couple of them or have them with a lower radius than now, but certainly not have them cover the entire freaking map.
2) Tank supply count could/should be increased by 1 maybe? Especially after the roach change. In both replays, QXC had what, 6-7 tanks just chilling in his base? Maybe 2-3 to defend a worm or something is ok but that many is just wrong.
3) Infestors can't really do anything in mech tvz since they die instantly to tanks in addition to being vastly outranged and that really narrows down the options a zerg player has when engaging in a battle. It almost feels that suiciding entire armies is the only way to go.
All that said, I still I think it is early to have absolute judgements because, really, who knows what strategies or changes lie ahead.
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a 200/200 Tank/Thor/Viking push is really unstoppable, it's like releasing the kraken for selfish purposes.
I think it's very simple to just make the tank go dumb ass like in SC:BW, just let it overkill stuff unlike the genius that we have right now.
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On June 03 2010 09:27 dethrawr wrote:
Its the same in SC1, if zerg lets terran get 200/200 mech zerg will lose.
I don't think its really imbalanced, zerg needs to start using mech's immobility against them with nydus/doom drop play.
Also your 'fix' would be awful :l
......What? I've beat plenty of 200/200 terrans in sc1. Simply letting them macro should not be the nail in your coffin
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I would love to see the Overkill AI removed, just to see how mech fares for a week or two.
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On June 03 2010 12:24 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 12:21 koppik wrote:On June 03 2010 12:03 Antimage wrote:Those terrans didn't realize how strong mech was, and didn't turtle up midgame in order to get to the late game. If they did, they would have been unstoppable. This thread isn't about how Z can never beat T, it's that if T follows a defensive strategy for a while, losing map control while massing more mech, there is a point where Z has no chance to beat them. Shouldn't we wait until a terran actually makes a build that's really shown to be unstoppable before worrying about the possibility of it? I guess TheLittleOne's TvZ build was thought to be "invincible" for a little while, before he lost to Sen and IdrA. I mean, I think IdrA's examples for mech imbalance were Sen vs. TLO and Check vs Rainbow. The zerg won both of those match-ups, though, so they aren't the greatest examples. i used those examples because there havent been many high level public games with terrans using pure mech yet, in those 2 examples terrans executed mech poorly vs zergs who were way better than them and still won games, but if you just look at the gameplay itself its pretty apparent there are problems. What was poor about the mech play for TLO and Rainbow? And is Rainbow really much worse than Check? Rainbow was #2 on the Asian ladder pre-patch 12, right, and he has a significant Broodwar background. Besides, it's definitely possible for a better player to drop a couple games in a Bo7 to an inferior player, even if it was perfectly balanced.
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On June 03 2010 12:04 Trok67 wrote:
17173 cup was before the roach nerf and thor buff as far as i remember. Moreover most terran player played bio at this time.
Uh no. You're completely wrong. The tournament just finished recently, it was after the roach nerf. And most (literally all) of the asian terrans play 1/1/1 build (ie: mech or avilo's opening). It's only the US/EU terrans that stuck to MMM for so long.
On June 03 2010 12:03 Antimage wrote:
Those terrans didn't realize how strong mech was, and didn't turtle up midgame in order to get to the late game. If they did, they would have been unstoppable. This thread isn't about how Z can never beat T, it's that if T follows a defensive strategy for a while, losing map control while massing more mech, there is a point where Z has no chance to beat them.
Those terrans were playing mech style 1/1/1 build long before anybody other than avilo on US/EU even considered it. So you got that part backwards. They realized how strong mech was long before people outside of asia caught on (except for avilo really with his ghost mech build). I still think avilo came up with it first, but I digress.
In one game I watched, I think it was maka versus cool maybe (or check, not sure) - maka tried to turtle mech on steppes of war. Everybody, including the commentators, were saying how much of a mech favored map it was. Then the zerg surprised everybody by beating maka on that map.
And maka is probably the best mech terran in the world right now. Ever since I started watching him in the early days of PlayXP, he has been going mech. He has far more experience, and far more tournament wins going mech than any other terran. And he still loses to cool's zerg all the time.
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maka doesnt use mech.. he either does 1 base 2 fac + marine allins or plays bio + 2 fac tank
do you people not even watch the games you're commenting on? you really think tlo and rainbow executed well in those games? tlo barely even uses sensor towers.
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On June 03 2010 12:41 IdrA wrote:
maka doesnt use mech.. he either does 1 base 2 fac + marine allins or plays bio + 2 fac tank
do you people not even watch the games you're commenting on? you really think tlo and rainbow executed well in those games? tlo barely even uses sensor towers.
Its same thing for 90 % of the zerg's game showen in the thread so far the zergs just failed and don't execute. I mean the sheth QXC one is blatantly bad lol.
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United States2095 Posts
Ok I've taken your crap for a while here xnub, calling me a woodleague player and saying I'm blatantly bad. Xnub, why don't you go win something, ANYTHING, and until then just leave the big boys alone. Ok?
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Way too dramatic of a change, you need to make them 2 supply and 100 gas again if you want to do this.
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On June 03 2010 12:41 IdrA wrote:
maka doesnt use mech.. he either does 1 base 2 fac + marine allins or plays bio + 2 fac tank
do you people not even watch the games you're commenting on? you really think tlo and rainbow executed well in those games? tlo barely even uses sensor towers.
I don't have the energy to argue about ZvT mech anymore. It's bad enough playing it, reliving it on the forums is even worse. Glad to see you and other high profile players actually taking the time to try and spell it out though.
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On June 03 2010 12:50 Sheth wrote:
Ok I've taken your crap for a while here xnub, calling me a woodleague player and saying I'm blatantly bad. Xnub, why don't you go win something, ANYTHING, and until then just leave the big boys alone. Ok?
"Well YOU can't do it, so I'm doing great!"
>.> He's not criticizing you. He's saying that the replay is not the best example for making an "X is imba" claim, which is true. Unless, of course, you claim that you played superbly well?
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EPT
