|
On June 03 2010 13:32 Sheth wrote:
I watched TLO vs. Sen. Your both (iEchoic, koppik) miss understanding the mech were reffering to in this thread. Why don't you watch one of the three reps posted at the OP. TLO Didn't play that sort of mech. I'm going to bed now, so sleep well in your knowledge that T is not overpowered at all, and that your really just that much better then the zergs you beat.
TLO opened mech-heavy and was forced to adjust throughout the rest of the series because he realized that Sen was too smart for that.
Why don't you post a replay of Sen losing a series to Mech?
|
On June 03 2010 13:13 iEchoic wrote:
It's hilarious to see Zerg players endlessly crying about T Mech when Sen is going from place to place rolling the living piss out of strong Mech players.
The excuse I always hear after this is "well, Sen is amazing!"? So? If something can be beaten with sufficient skill, it's not imbalanced.
Oh, ok. If Strategy A takes very little skill and beats every other strategy except Strategy Q performed flawlessly, all is well (hyperbole, please don't argue that mech takes skill or more than one strat works; I am argueing against iEchoic's absurd generalization on balance, not the build specifically). Of course mech is possible to beat, but if it leads to an 80% average win rate it's absurdly imbalanced.
It's very difficult to evaluate this situation objectively as the very term "imbalance" is subject to interpretation, we all have racial biases and we don't have access to full statistical information. We have no choice but to go by the fallible opinions of the community, and the aggregate opinion of non-terran players (even at the top level, see op) is overwhelmingly that mech is too powerful. The onus is on you to provide some magical solution which doesn't involve godlike mechanics if you want to argue with zerg's elite when you do not even play the race.
|
The terran mech complaints remind me of back in the days of Command and Conquer Red Alert 2. People would complain that Allied tech was too strong, and I would simply tell them, keep the pressure on, I play soviets, and guess what, if the allied get a chance to tech high, like a battle lab (equivalent of hive tech, t3 tech, thor tech, etc... in sc2 kinda) then YOU are doing something wrong, not the game.
I feel this game is the same, it's just taking longer for most people to figure it out.
|
On June 03 2010 13:34 3clipse wrote: We have no choice but to go by the fallible opinions of the community, and the aggregate opinion of non-terran players (even at the top level, see op) is overwhelmingly that mech is too powerful
That list is a joke, the thread-maker has an agenda. There's no doubt he expended far more effort trying to find voices that agree with him than disagree with him.
Every time I see Zerg vs Mech replays I just see the zerg players spamming roaches and hydras into mech. Every. Single Time. Even high-level players (with the exception of sen). It's like banging your head against the wall and hoping it fixes the problem eventually.
|
i'm starting to think that iechoic is a troll
|
In concerns to OP. I do not believe Blizzard is going to make a patch to nerf tanks saying "We dumbed down tanks =) "
|
On June 03 2010 13:36 Aberu wrote:
The terran mech complaints remind me of back in the days of Command and Conquer Red Alert 2.
I stopped reading here
|
Rainbow did a pure mech. He got four thors to hold off mutas, some turrets, sensor towers, did very effective hellion harass, and got eaten alive by Check. What he did wasn't appreciably different from what QXC did, but Check first attacked at the seven minute mark and didn't stop attacking until he won.
IdrA viewed it as view of "imbalance" of mech because Rainbow won one game in bo7, even though the two had about equal ladder ranking pre-patch 12, playing a similar number of games with a similar win ratio. But I think it's actually a better argument for, at least at very high level competition, mech being fine.
|
On June 03 2010 13:37 drewbie.root wrote:
i'm starting to think that iechoic is a troll
First sign that you have no argument: just label the other person a troll.
Sarcasm aside, I'd suggest some Zerg players pick up mech and play it. You'll learn that it does have several weaknesses (or just watch Sen, who is very good at exploiting them).
|
On June 03 2010 13:39 Trok67 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 13:36 Aberu wrote:
The terran mech complaints remind me of back in the days of Command and Conquer Red Alert 2. I stopped reading here
Well you shouldn't have. The truth is that game was highly competitive as well, and there were people that would complain that allied tech was better than soviet tech. But the fact was, that was part of the balance of the game, soviet's job was to not let allied tech up. I think that zerg's job is to get map control, and contain the enemy and harass their econ whilst still holding their own macro strong.
Does anyone use nydus worms? Does anyone overlord drop on these mech turtlers?
|
On June 03 2010 13:41 Aberu wrote:
Does anyone use nydus worms? Does anyone overlord drop on these mech turtlers?
A large majority of the replays posted in this thread by adherents of the 'mech is too strong' philosophy involve the zerg players throwing massed hydras and roaches into the mech army, unfortunately.
|
On June 03 2010 13:36 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 13:34 3clipse wrote: We have no choice but to go by the fallible opinions of the community, and the aggregate opinion of non-terran players (even at the top level, see op) is overwhelmingly that mech is too powerful That list is a joke, the thread-maker has an agenda. There's no doubt he expended far more effort trying to find voices that agree with him than disagree with him. Every time I see Zerg vs Mech replays I just see the zerg players spamming roaches and hydras into mech. Every. Single Time. Even high-level players (with the exception of sen). It's like banging your head against the wall and hoping it fixes the problem eventually.
It would make sense to provide an alternative solution while you're criticizing their gameplay. Mutas? Severely countered by thors which have nearly seige tank range. Broodlords? Even if you get the tech, vikings easily prevent you from using them. For every option zerg has, terran seems to have the perfect hard counter with absurd range.
|
On June 03 2010 13:41 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 13:39 Trok67 wrote:On June 03 2010 13:36 Aberu wrote:
The terran mech complaints remind me of back in the days of Command and Conquer Red Alert 2. I stopped reading here Well you shouldn't have. The truth is that game was highly competitive as well, and there were people that would complain that allied tech was better than soviet tech. But the fact was, that was part of the balance of the game, soviet's job was to not let allied tech up. I think that zerg's job is to get map control, and contain the enemy and harass their econ whilst still holding their own macro strong. Does anyone use nydus worms? Does anyone overlord drop on these mech turtlers?
how many do we need to repeat the same damn things ? Nydus worm ONLY WORKS if the terran player is BAD and don't spot the nydus worm in his base. Drop overlord for what ? See all our army getting killed by tank spread among his base ? He can also simply deny our drop and just go into our base and simply destroy our base, base switch isnt at the advantage of the zerg player.
And the balance of the game is not suppose to be like : Race A should win before 10 min otherwise race A loose.
|
On June 03 2010 13:42 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 13:41 Aberu wrote:
Does anyone use nydus worms? Does anyone overlord drop on these mech turtlers? A large majority of the replays posted in this thread by adherents of the 'mech is too strong' philosophy involve the zerg players throwing massed hydras and roaches into the mech army, unfortunately.
I agree, I think that mech isn't too strong. I think I agree with the argument that the seige tanks should be able to miss shots, and shouldn't have such perfect AI. Our ultralisks can miss hitting marauders, why can't the seige tanks overkill?
But overall, I'm on your side. I think the top zerg players mentioned before in this thread as well that also say mech is too strong play extremely heavy macro games early on with defensive spine crawlers and spreading creep. They play this like it's zerg from sc1.
Even Idra (who has the best macro out of any zerg player imo) is guilty of pretty much just sticking to roaches and hydras, and maybe infestors. There are other units and there has to be a way of using them.
|
On June 03 2010 13:41 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 13:39 Trok67 wrote:On June 03 2010 13:36 Aberu wrote:
The terran mech complaints remind me of back in the days of Command and Conquer Red Alert 2. I stopped reading here Well you shouldn't have. The truth is that game was highly competitive as well, and there were people that would complain that allied tech was better than soviet tech. But the fact was, that was part of the balance of the game, soviet's job was to not let allied tech up. I think that zerg's job is to get map control, and contain the enemy and harass their econ whilst still holding their own macro strong. Does anyone use nydus worms? Does anyone overlord drop on these mech turtlers?
But those would cut into the unbeatable rouch/hydra spam!.. Oh wait! 
|
On June 03 2010 12:50 Sheth wrote:
Ok I've taken your crap for a while here xnub, calling me a woodleague player and saying I'm blatantly bad. Xnub, why don't you go win something, ANYTHING, and until then just leave the big boys alone. Ok?
You normaly don't play like that i don't know if you were sleepy or just gave up on the 3rd match or what. Sry you play those 2 games very badly i mean come on you built 3 infetor pits there in one of the games out from your nat you clearly stoped careing and just gvae up or were really really sleepy.
Not saying you play like that all the time you don't but those 2 match you did play like a wood legue player lol you got to admit it. People keep bringing it up as a reason terran mech is OP and im sry you know you can't use those 2 games lol. But ya terran 200/200 that fare in the game can be called OP early mid is fine still. Just that crit #.
And if it helps im sry if i hurt you feelings did not mean to just bad replay for any sort of example verg vs terran.
|
On June 03 2010 13:33 drewbie.root wrote:
iEchoic, TLO didn't abuse it properly, and IMO me or qxc can execute it much better, if anyone wants to step up to the challenge, i will play anytime ok?
This is actually a great idea.
Seriously. Instead of this idiotic bickering in the thread, you and qxc should just sit down and do a couple of series with some killer players, and post the replays. It should be pretty obvious what's what after that.
|
On June 03 2010 13:47 Orange Goblin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 13:33 drewbie.root wrote:
iEchoic, TLO didn't abuse it properly, and IMO me or qxc can execute it much better, if anyone wants to step up to the challenge, i will play anytime ok? This is actually a great idea. Seriously. Instead of this idiotic bickering in the thread, you and qxc should just sit down and do a couple of series with some killer players, and post the replays. It should be pretty obvious what's what after that.
With commentary I'd watch it, sounds like a plan!
Better yet how about a stream on TL about the Do's an Don'ts of ZergvsMech? ^.^
|
I see a lot of people here saying that all Zerg has to do is use Nydus and OV drops. They are failing to realize that Sensor Towers render drops and Nydus useless. Vikings will be on the overlords before they have a chance to drop units and tanks/thors will already be on their way to mop up any units that actually made it on the ground.
In my opinion, scrap Sensor Towers.
|
On June 03 2010 13:45 Trok67 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 13:41 Aberu wrote:On June 03 2010 13:39 Trok67 wrote:On June 03 2010 13:36 Aberu wrote:
The terran mech complaints remind me of back in the days of Command and Conquer Red Alert 2. I stopped reading here Well you shouldn't have. The truth is that game was highly competitive as well, and there were people that would complain that allied tech was better than soviet tech. But the fact was, that was part of the balance of the game, soviet's job was to not let allied tech up. I think that zerg's job is to get map control, and contain the enemy and harass their econ whilst still holding their own macro strong. Does anyone use nydus worms? Does anyone overlord drop on these mech turtlers? how many do we need to repeat the same damn things ? Nydus worms ONLY WORKS if the terran players is BAD and don't spot the nydos worm in his base. Drop overlord for what ? See all our army getting killed by tank spread among his base ? He can also simply deny our drop and just into our base and simply destroy our base, base switch isnt at the advantage of the zerg player. And the balance of the game is not suppose to be like : Race A should win before 10 min otherwise race A loose.
I'll agree that the drops aren't the best idea, but how many of these top players have incorporated ultras? None, ultras were rebalanced as anti mech, but for some reason no one uses them. And the nydus isn't just for in the base to blow it up, it's also for ledges to attack mineral lines and have unscouted high ground advantage in early/mid.
Also that kinda is how a game that has a supply cap of 200 (CnC games with no supply cap, or any supply at all), sounds to me! I mean if you can't beat them unit for unit, why not beat them when unit for unit you win in some way?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
