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On June 03 2010 13:50 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 13:44 3clipse wrote:Mutas? Severely countered by thors which have nearly seige tank range. I think this is a HUGE misconception. Thors are not a great counter for Mutas. Sure, Thors beat Mutas if they get in a fight with eachother, impressive. If you define counter by 'what wins when both things a-move eachother', then yeah, it's a fantastic counter. Having a unit that beats your opponent's unit is worthless if you surrender control of the entire map to have it. You cannot defend multiple bases with a Thor. You need turrets, which are a money sink. You can not attack without static defenses or without leaving a significant amount of defense at home. Zerg players have this strange misconception that because Mutas beat Thors, and they have mutas and the opponent has thors, they're losing the game. You control the entire map, have the other player contained, and have much better scouting info. If you can't make something of that, you're doing it wrong.
are you completely stupid man? please stop posting in here.
1 thor + 2 turrets > 10 muta
2 thor + 2 turrets > 15 muta
3 thor + 4 turrets > 30 muta
Does that sound cost efficient to you ? Also if the terran upgrades his thors ( which he obviously will ) it will be even worse of a raping, oh yea and the building armor upgrade + turret range upgrade. lol.
You say that turrets are a money sink, and t needs mass defense blah blah blah, but theres a few things you are forgetting. Minerals do not matter AT ALL for terran when he is doing this strat, the only thing that is important is gas, T will always have enough excess minerals to spam turrets or CC's or repair or marines in bunkers or hellions or w/e. Also you are obviously not watching the replays or possibly even reading the OP, because qxc did not attack at all, he just turtled for the ENTIRE game, and waited until the zerg ran out of resources, so your idiotic points about not being able to attack are completely irrelevant to this thread.
Also, I watched the TLO vs sen games, and TLO went mass vikings, that is not even close to the strategy that we are saying his imba, mass vikings is not IMBA, its downright bad and TLO deserved to lose, so get off sen's nuts, because he will not beat me or qxc doing this style ok?
Lastly, even in a standard MMM game, muta harass is really not hard to deal with at all. you are just bad if you think otherwise ok? Like you said, muta are terrible in a head on fight, so all you have to do is make 3-4 turrets at each base, enough to buy you some time to reinforce if the mutas decide to commit to a counter when you move out. I used to have the most problems with mass lings into muta into baneling style vs zerg, but then i realized that 2 thor + 8 rine + the rest of your money going into marauders will insta - kill all the mutas. I also realized that this style is relatively low eco, because you have to use all your larva on units, and just taking a fast 3rd exp with bunkers + PF + turrets, and taking the game into late game is pretty much invincible.
I don't understand how this one troll idiot noob thinks that he is smarter than 20 people who are higher skilled than him ????? seriously wtf, are you serious? are you reading what you type?
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iEchoic are you trolling?I mean seriously you have to be brain dead to think that Mech vs Zerg is balanced.Your main argument is that Sen can stop it???So what everyone else is just bad?Does that mean that all terran players are good because they can beat zergs?Or does that mean that when two evenly skilled players,one terran and one zerg play against each other the terran player will ALWAYS WIN simply because countering mech requires RIDICULOUS amount of skill?In a balanced game the person with the superior skill will always win,this here is not the case.Your main argument is that 1 person can stop it so it's not imba...so all other thousands of players are just bad and even tho they may be better players than their terran opponents they still deserve to loose because they are not the all mighty Sen.Please respond to this post.
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Threads like this really irritate me. On one side we have several high skilled progames and casters and on the other saide we have some low skill no names telling them they need to play better ? Really ? You think sheth or catz thinks mech is imba cause he lost that one game OP posted ?? Get your head out of your ass . They probably played hundreds of games by this point, and have an incomparable amounts of game knowledge to all those random trolls here.
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On June 03 2010 14:14 HaZzZaRd wrote:
iEchoic are you trolling?I mean seriously you have to be brain dead to think that Mech vs Zerg is balanced.Your main argument is that Sen can stop it???So what everyone else is just bad?Does that mean that all terran players are good because they can beat zergs?Or does that mean that when two evenly skilled players,one terran and one zerg play against each other the terran player will ALWAYS WIN simply because countering mech requires RIDICULOUS amount of skill?In a balanced game the person with the superior skill will always win,this here is not the case.Your main argument is that 1 person can stop it so it's not imba...so all other thousands of players are just bad and even tho they may be better players than their terran opponents they still deserve to loose because they are not the all mighty Sen.Please respond to this post.
hey man, his main Sen argument comes from 2 games where TLO went MASS VIKINGS in the EARLY GAME vs sen, i don't think he even read the OP LOL
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During all patches until 10-th - zergs crashed every terran on every tournament. And now when situation changed - instead of experemenentating and creating new buildorders they start whining. And i have to say - everything depends on server. European zergs are useless. They have no clue what to do at all. I don't take Dimaga, since i haven't played him forages. American zergs are quite ahead, it's way harder to play with them. Korean zergs - well you know all - why talking... Noone in world right now can win hot-top korean zerg in bo7. Why talking about imbalance in TvZ then?
I also want to point out - that koreans terrans almost no use pure tech, except the shortest maps 2 factories rush. I hope you have enough brains and don't think they simply don't know about such "imba"
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I will chime in to agree that TvZ mech is really the only thing I felt was OP in my time in beta. I played terran pre-patch 13 at platinum level and started using this strat once it started becoming more popular then proceeded to have a 20+ game winning streak against zerg. Now these aren't exactly pro level games but still decently skilled and it does show that assuming equal skill the mech terran will come out on top the vast majority of the time which should not be the case IMO. You can't expect 99.9% of zerg to harass and outsmart at the level of Sen or other top Zerg pro's, while on the other hand mech play requires very little thought and is basically 1a2a. I can't offer any great solutions myself but I did like Antimage's suggestions a couple of pages back.
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On June 03 2010 14:19 3D.Strelok wrote:
During all patches until 10-th - zergs crashed every terran on every tournament. And now when situation changed - instead of experemenentating and creating new buildorders they start whining. And i have to say - everything depends on server. European zergs are useless. They have no clue what to do at all. I don't take Dimaga, since i haven't played him forages. American zergs are quite ahead, it's way harder to play with them. Korean zergs - well you know all - why talking... Noone in world right now can win hot-top korean zerg in bo7. Why talking about imbalance in TvZ then?
I'm pretty sure the top zerg players are actually trying different things and its NOT working. I have tried everything I can think of and still get stomped by good terrans.
The only time I have really beat a good terran when he went mech was when I went muta - into fast broodlord and even then that was more likely then not a fluke for me to even win. If you have been paying attention at all in tvz its ridiculous just how strong mech rapes a zerg army...
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That is not the point even if this build can be stopped by someone that plays 12 hours a day does that mean that terran mech is not OP because it CAN be stopped?To my understanding the person with the higher skill should ALWAYS win.
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Hi, not to be a pest or anything since this discussion is over my skill level but it seems there is an easier answer than nerfing AI. The main issues for not Nydus/dropping seems to be it can't be done effectively. So why not nerf sensor tower, and shave a bit of time off the nydus (5 seconds?) which, I'd think, would have a far lesser impact on over all game balance. I wouldn't need a long explanation for why it can't work. A simple high level player saying it couldn't work would be enough, but it really sounds like this is what the discussion keeps circling around. The counter not being effective enough.
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On June 03 2010 14:14 HaZzZaRd wrote:Your main argument is that Sen can stop it???So what everyone else is just bad? I think the argument is that, at least at the top level, there really hasn't been many good examples of terran mech dominating. QXC vs Sheth is a good example, but it was just one style of play and there were certainly potential places where he could have won (earlier in the match--not near the end). There are examples of turtling terran mech getting owned at the top level too--like from Sen or Check.
Saying you know "oh, it's broken: after the 30 minute mark, if the Terran and Zerg have split the map, the zerg can't do anything" doesn't say that much, even if it's definitely the case.
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On June 03 2010 14:21 blade55555 wrote:
I'm pretty sure the top zerg players are actually trying different things and its NOT working.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124584
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124953
2 biggest tournaments.
1 tournament - zergs 1,2,4
2 tournament - zergs 1, 3-4.
We can add also TL.invitational. But there will be also zerg second place. And protoss, not terran on first.
You know when i ask all zergs - why the hell korean zergs own everyone and you can't - they always answer: "These korean zergs - don't have any good terrans to play against". And when i ask - and tell me terran who will beat those koreans - they never talk about personalities, but about strategies. Very funny thing.
On June 03 2010 14:21 blade55555 wrote:
I have tried everything I can think of and still get stomped by good terrans.
Are you top player?
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Why has no one pointed out that one player does not necessarily represent a large enough sample size to make a claim? When I see people say "but sen can win" it made me think about this tidbit about the map medusa:
The original map was very difficult for Terran against Protoss; though the statistics do not appear terribly imbalanced at first glance (39-18 in favor of Protoss) they become much more damning once you realize that Flash went 7-1 against Protoss on the map, without which the statistics reduce to a dismal 38-11.
which is from : http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Medusahttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Medusa
So was the map balanced? Because T progamers who werent named Flash were getting smashed by Protoss players. So let me ask, would you tell those T progamers who practice 10 hours a day and have coaches to get better and quit whining?
As an interesting side note after 2008 they remade the map.
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Lulz, zerg spammers crying they can't mass muta and get an instant win.
QQ more.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 03 2010 14:31 Santriel wrote:
Lulz, zerg spammers crying they can't mass muta and get an instant win.
QQ more.
Actually if you read the thread you would realize zerg aren't crying about not being able to mass muta. Should read the thread before commenting next time methinks  .
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Ok lets talk about top Diamond level then.Every single Zerg I know is getting owned by terran mech.They have map control,better apm,30-40 supply advantage and they still have NO CHANCE.Is that balanced?
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On June 03 2010 13:36 iEchoic wrote:
That list is a joke, the thread-maker has an agenda.There's no doubt he expended far more effort trying to find voices that agree with him than disagree with him.
What I find the most disturbing is that 2 of the replays between Sheth vs QXC are from the LAST PATCH and that before starting this thread, Raelcun didn't wait a few days for Zerg players to test the new balance.
Crying imbalance immediately after the new patch is just silly - at least give some time for the players to come up with new strats following this new patch.
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On June 03 2010 14:39 StarcraftMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 13:36 iEchoic wrote:
That list is a joke, the thread-maker has an agenda.There's no doubt he expended far more effort trying to find voices that agree with him than disagree with him.
What I find the most disturbing is that 2 of the replays between Sheth vs QXC are from the LAST PATCH and that before starting this thread, Raelcun didn't wait a few days for Zerg players to test the new balance. Crying imbalance immediately after the new patch is just silly - at least give some time for the players to come up with new strats following this new patch.
Fully, fully accept!!! Give it at least 1-2 months and see how it goes
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Uh, we know exactly what's in the patch. Nothing is changed in the situation OP is describing.
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On June 03 2010 14:41 3D.Strelok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 14:39 StarcraftMan wrote:On June 03 2010 13:36 iEchoic wrote:
That list is a joke, the thread-maker has an agenda.There's no doubt he expended far more effort trying to find voices that agree with him than disagree with him.
What I find the most disturbing is that 2 of the replays between Sheth vs QXC are from the LAST PATCH and that before starting this thread, Raelcun didn't wait a few days for Zerg players to test the new balance. Crying imbalance immediately after the new patch is just silly - at least give some time for the players to come up with new strats following this new patch. Fully, fully accept!!! Give it at least 1-2 months and see how it goes
See the problem is that we do not have 1-2 moths if you want to play a balanced game when it comes out....
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On June 03 2010 14:41 3D.Strelok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 14:39 StarcraftMan wrote:On June 03 2010 13:36 iEchoic wrote:
That list is a joke, the thread-maker has an agenda.There's no doubt he expended far more effort trying to find voices that agree with him than disagree with him.
What I find the most disturbing is that 2 of the replays between Sheth vs QXC are from the LAST PATCH and that before starting this thread, Raelcun didn't wait a few days for Zerg players to test the new balance. Crying imbalance immediately after the new patch is just silly - at least give some time for the players to come up with new strats following this new patch. Fully, fully accept!!! Give it at least 1-2 months and see how it goes
How do any of the changes affect the matchup at all?
Oh wait drops are more expensive to research now and um... well.... Infestors are easier to position so when they die they're in a better spot?
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EPT
