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On June 03 2010 15:06 Trok67 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 14:58 sadyque wrote:
The Moman game only proves balance. Lz actually had better income for the most part of the game. Moman had like 7 bases with no drones and the same income as Lz. If you look at the first battle with the fake drop Lz has a more expensive army than Moman. When lz starts to move down to Mo's expansions 30 speedlings would have wtfpwned all the tanks(either by droppping on them or catching them unsieged). Not to mention that at any time aftert the first battle if the zerg morphed 20 mutas it would have been GG. All the game long Moman uses ONLY 2 UNITS! - roaches and hydras. Lz has tanks, hellions, ravens, vikings and thors. Now what do you expect? A two zerg unit composition army should wtfpwn a well rounded and complete terran army?
lol, the problem is that zerg doesnt have ANY OTHER OPTION than those 2 units. We can invent some other super strong units but they dont exist... infestor = useless against mech mutalisk = completely raped by thors zerglings = raped by hellions and tanks (and also thor since we cant surrond them aswell as before) ultralisk = completely useless (show first 2 replays) broodlords = raped hardly by vikings corruptor = also raped by viking Did i forget any unit ?
thor = useless agains infestor NP also crap vs zerglings
maraude/hellion/tanksr=useless vs mutalisk
hellions =uselss vs roaches
marauders = useless vs hydra
BC = uselss vs corruptor
Blord > all terran ground
See wut I did thare?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 03 2010 14:45 Corwin wrote:
Mech can feel overpowered, but let's not exaggerate. MoMaN lost that game because he didn't build a Spire. After MoMaN killed Lz's gold, Lz's economy was trashed; he didn't have nearly enough gas to build Thors or Vikings in any significant quantity. Transitioning to air instead of throwing away roaches against Tanks would have won MoMaN the game. His loss doesn't have anything to do with mech balancing issues.
I agree with this completely, the Lz game was a bad example. MoMaN could have easily ended the game with a simple air transition.
I think the thread has gotten derailed from its original idea, that zerg vs. mech can get to a point in the game where it's just no longer balanced. He wasn't arguing that mech cannot be beaten with zerg at anytime by anyone. Sure these games could have been won earlier if zerg did things differently but that isn't the point.
Although a lot of you don't seem to care about late game balance, that's what this is about. What it came down to is that zerg had half the map and unlimited resources but no real options.
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On June 03 2010 15:13 lu_cid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 15:12 Slipspace wrote:
Alright, I read like the first 7 pages and just really want to say this.
In BW, Zerg's response to terran late game was the defiler right? Dark swarm + lurker vs mech, or dark swarm + ultraling vs infantry. I didn't play BW as competitively as Starcraft 2, so those examples are surely a little inaccurate but its the general idea.
Blizzard WANTS ultralisks to be the solution to Terran mech and the Marauder with the Infestor playing a similar role as the defiler. As bad and terrible as people make ultralisks out to be, has anyone actually seen a mass army of frenzied ultralisk charge at a Terran mech army? In the Qxc vs Sheth game, he surely had the time to make a large infestor/ultraling army and confront this immobile mech army. I watch streams all the time and it's almost always 1-2 ultralisks and rarely more than maybe 5, and never frenzied. Ultralisks have a lot of health and in numbers take a TON of damage before falling. With lings backing them up and some well placed neural parasites, the ultralisks will do some serious damage. I haven't seen this ultilized in Starcraft 2.
Avilo presenting his nydus strategy might be a bad strategy, but it doesn't matter. His point is he isn't convinced that every possible strategy has been exhausted and I'm not either. Dark swarm was terrible against mech in bw iirc
Mostly true, but it at least gave your army enough damage reduction to actually get a few attacks off and damage his army. As it is right now, you can throw 100 supply worth of zerg army at a mech ball and the terran would only lose maybe 4 or 5 units. I'm not saying that this was what people did (it certainly was not ideal), but you could at the very least slowly chip away at his army if you had map control and an economic advantage.
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On June 03 2010 15:14 sadyque wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 15:06 Trok67 wrote:On June 03 2010 14:58 sadyque wrote:
The Moman game only proves balance. Lz actually had better income for the most part of the game. Moman had like 7 bases with no drones and the same income as Lz. If you look at the first battle with the fake drop Lz has a more expensive army than Moman. When lz starts to move down to Mo's expansions 30 speedlings would have wtfpwned all the tanks(either by droppping on them or catching them unsieged). Not to mention that at any time aftert the first battle if the zerg morphed 20 mutas it would have been GG. All the game long Moman uses ONLY 2 UNITS! - roaches and hydras. Lz has tanks, hellions, ravens, vikings and thors. Now what do you expect? A two zerg unit composition army should wtfpwn a well rounded and complete terran army?
lol, the problem is that zerg doesnt have ANY OTHER OPTION than those 2 units. We can invent some other super strong units but they dont exist... infestor = useless against mech mutalisk = completely raped by thors zerglings = raped by hellions and tanks (and also thor since we cant surrond them aswell as before) ultralisk = completely useless (show first 2 replays) broodlords = raped hardly by vikings corruptor = also raped by viking Did i forget any unit ? thor = useless agains infestor NP also crap vs zerglings maraude/hellion/tanksr=useless vs mutalisk hellions =uselss vs roaches marauders = useless vs hydra BC = uselss vs corruptor Blord > all terran ground See wut I did thare?
obviously you dont play zerg so let me help you : NP thor doesnt work because infestor are instantly killed by tank, infestor range = 9, tank = 13 ok, and yes some zerg units counter some terrans units, but there is NO hard counter,
so the composition tank + thor + hellion + viking finally just rape every composition of zerg army as long as terran adapt slighty his comp
seriously do you guys just listen to all the things that have been said ? because you dont add anything to the debate here
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Mutas just get destroyed by Terran. The way Zerg dealt with Mech/Tank play in SC1 was revolved around DS and good mutalisk sniping. Now the Thor is basically a giant turret with tons of HP and AA splash with insane AA range (oh, and it can move). Zerg literally has nothing that can absorb shots from Mech play that is now even efficient in not overkilling.
I think nydus play can be good, but it shouldn't be the only option. Doom drops are good too, but I feel like a lot of games where that does happen, the Terran is sieged half was across the maps and then just abandons his base and kills the Zerg while most of his units are away. Then 90% of the time in base trading, Terran is going to come out on top with the whole MULE-ing and floating structures.
EDIT: Roaches need to be rebuffed a bit. They were a decent a decent option back then, now they are just crap. Tunneling claws was pretty good at catching Terran sieges offguard if there weren't any detectors, but no one even gets roaches anymore because they've been nerfed to hell.
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On June 03 2010 15:14 sadyque wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 15:06 Trok67 wrote:On June 03 2010 14:58 sadyque wrote:
The Moman game only proves balance. Lz actually had better income for the most part of the game. Moman had like 7 bases with no drones and the same income as Lz. If you look at the first battle with the fake drop Lz has a more expensive army than Moman. When lz starts to move down to Mo's expansions 30 speedlings would have wtfpwned all the tanks(either by droppping on them or catching them unsieged). Not to mention that at any time aftert the first battle if the zerg morphed 20 mutas it would have been GG. All the game long Moman uses ONLY 2 UNITS! - roaches and hydras. Lz has tanks, hellions, ravens, vikings and thors. Now what do you expect? A two zerg unit composition army should wtfpwn a well rounded and complete terran army?
lol, the problem is that zerg doesnt have ANY OTHER OPTION than those 2 units. We can invent some other super strong units but they dont exist... infestor = useless against mech mutalisk = completely raped by thors zerglings = raped by hellions and tanks (and also thor since we cant surrond them aswell as before) ultralisk = completely useless (show first 2 replays) broodlords = raped hardly by vikings corruptor = also raped by viking Did i forget any unit ? thor = useless agains infestor NP also crap vs zerglings maraude/hellion/tanksr=useless vs mutalisk hellions =uselss vs roaches marauders = useless vs hydra BC = uselss vs corruptor Blord > all terran ground See wut I did thare?
thor = useless agains infestor NP also crap vs zerglings HARD COUNTERS MUTAS great vs roaches
maraude/hellion/tanksr=useless vs mutalisk Tanks HARD COUNTER ALL GROUND easily kills infestors
hellions =uselss vs roaches HARD COUNTERS ZERGLINGS good vs hydras
marauders = useless vs hydra Amazing vs roaches
BC = uselss vs corruptor bc are useless period.....
Blord > all terran ground GETTING OWNED BY VIKING
See wut I did thare?
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On June 03 2010 15:12 Slipspace wrote:
Alright, I read like the first 7 pages and just really want to say this.
In BW, Zerg's response to terran late game was the defiler right? Dark swarm + lurker vs mech, or dark swarm + ultraling vs infantry. I didn't play BW as competitively as Starcraft 2, so those examples are surely a little inaccurate but its the general idea.
Blizzard WANTS ultralisks to be the solution to Terran mech and the Marauder with the Infestor playing a similar role as the defiler. As bad and terrible as people make ultralisks out to be, has anyone actually seen a mass army of frenzied ultralisk charge at a Terran mech army? In the Qxc vs Sheth game, he surely had the time to make a large infestor/ultraling army and confront this immobile mech army. I watch streams all the time and it's almost always 1-2 ultralisks and rarely more than maybe 5, and never frenzied. Ultralisks have a lot of health and in numbers take a TON of damage before falling. With lings backing them up and some well placed neural parasites, the ultralisks will do some serious damage. I haven't seen this ultilized in Starcraft 2.
Avilo presenting his nydus strategy might be a bad strategy, but it doesn't matter. His point is he isn't convinced that every possible strategy has been exhausted and I'm not either.
I wouldn't count Avilo's opionion for really anything as before when Terran was struggling I guess a bit vs zerg he would scream how imbalanced zerg was and how easy zerg was and Terran couldn't win if the game went past 10 minutes (yet there were matches by good players at the time proving him wrong). Guess what as soon as Terran's mech gets boosted and almost every zerg player is struggling against it so hard right now he says its because zergs don't know how to play. Not trying to be rude but I wouldn't go by his opinion  .
Also to note mech is beatable but that doesn't mean its balanced... Its so hard to beat a good terran player who goes mech as zerg its ridiculous. I don't see how anybody is saying mech is balanced its just every other zerg player is bad I mean really? Lots of good terran players are agreeing its so easy to beat a zerg as mech it just is I don't know how people can say its balanced :S.
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On June 03 2010 15:14 sadyque wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 15:06 Trok67 wrote:On June 03 2010 14:58 sadyque wrote:
The Moman game only proves balance. Lz actually had better income for the most part of the game. Moman had like 7 bases with no drones and the same income as Lz. If you look at the first battle with the fake drop Lz has a more expensive army than Moman. When lz starts to move down to Mo's expansions 30 speedlings would have wtfpwned all the tanks(either by droppping on them or catching them unsieged). Not to mention that at any time aftert the first battle if the zerg morphed 20 mutas it would have been GG. All the game long Moman uses ONLY 2 UNITS! - roaches and hydras. Lz has tanks, hellions, ravens, vikings and thors. Now what do you expect? A two zerg unit composition army should wtfpwn a well rounded and complete terran army?
lol, the problem is that zerg doesnt have ANY OTHER OPTION than those 2 units. We can invent some other super strong units but they dont exist... infestor = useless against mech mutalisk = completely raped by thors zerglings = raped by hellions and tanks (and also thor since we cant surrond them aswell as before) ultralisk = completely useless (show first 2 replays) broodlords = raped hardly by vikings corruptor = also raped by viking Did i forget any unit ? thor = useless agains infestor NP also crap vs zerglings maraude/hellion/tanksr=useless vs mutalisk hellions =uselss vs roaches marauders = useless vs hydra BC = uselss vs corruptor Blord > all terran ground See wut I did thare?
Yes you wrote a incoherent string of poorly spelled unit names while acting kind of toolish with a meme.
Note how the person you quoted used, for four out of the six units, used the word "raped", while you, for every example, gave examples of "uselessness".
In other words, Marauders do nothing against mutalisks, but they are not countered by mutalisks. On the other hand, not only would a Zergling be useless against a banshee, it is also "raped" (countered) very heavily by units like Hellions and Siege Tanks.
Also Battlecruisers beat corruptors cost for cost.
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On June 03 2010 14:49 DooMDash wrote:
Zergs just havent been playing creative enough. Honestly mutalisks are the key for staling long enough to do some great tech switches to throw the Terran off.
what stalling? qxc didnt attack once the whole game on steppes / lt lol........
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I am really starting to think this boils down to thor AA being too good. Mech wasn't OP when thor AA sucked. There should be some negative about making 10 tanks. In BW if you had a tank heavy force and Z went heavy mutas, you would lose. There was this relationship where muta>tank, goliath>muta, hydra>goliath, and tank>hydra. No such relationship exists in SC2 because thors AA is just too good.
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have you seen the koreans play zerg vs mech? i don't see them complaining.
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Thor splash should be removed.That way Terran will have to actually play the game instead of getting 10 tanks, 3 thors.4-5 hellions and roflstomp zerg...
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On June 03 2010 15:25 Wr3k wrote:
I am really starting to think this boils down to thor AA being too good. Mech wasn't OP when thor AA sucked. There should be some negative about making 10 tanks. In BW if you had a tank heavy force and Z went heavy mutas, you would lose. There was this relationship where muta>tank, goliath>muta, hydra>goliath, and tank>hydra. No such relationship exists in SC2 because thors AA is just too good.
It was a good relation too. And the person with the better micro always won that match. It seems like micro is now less significant in this match up now (at least for Terran) and it tends to show as armies grow in numbers.
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On June 03 2010 15:21 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 15:12 Slipspace wrote:
Alright, I read like the first 7 pages and just really want to say this.
In BW, Zerg's response to terran late game was the defiler right? Dark swarm + lurker vs mech, or dark swarm + ultraling vs infantry. I didn't play BW as competitively as Starcraft 2, so those examples are surely a little inaccurate but its the general idea.
Blizzard WANTS ultralisks to be the solution to Terran mech and the Marauder with the Infestor playing a similar role as the defiler. As bad and terrible as people make ultralisks out to be, has anyone actually seen a mass army of frenzied ultralisk charge at a Terran mech army? In the Qxc vs Sheth game, he surely had the time to make a large infestor/ultraling army and confront this immobile mech army. I watch streams all the time and it's almost always 1-2 ultralisks and rarely more than maybe 5, and never frenzied. Ultralisks have a lot of health and in numbers take a TON of damage before falling. With lings backing them up and some well placed neural parasites, the ultralisks will do some serious damage. I haven't seen this ultilized in Starcraft 2.
Avilo presenting his nydus strategy might be a bad strategy, but it doesn't matter. His point is he isn't convinced that every possible strategy has been exhausted and I'm not either. I wouldn't count Avilo's opionion for really anything as before when Terran was struggling I guess a bit vs zerg he would scream how imbalanced zerg was and how easy zerg was and Terran couldn't win if the game went past 10 minutes (yet there were matches by good players at the time proving him wrong). Guess what as soon as Terran's mech gets boosted and almost every zerg player is struggling against it so hard right now he says its because zergs don't know how to play. Not trying to be rude but I wouldn't go by his opinion . Also to note mech is beatable but that doesn't mean its balanced... Its so hard to beat a good terran player who goes mech as zerg its ridiculous. I don't see how anybody is saying mech is balanced its just every other zerg player is bad I mean really? Lots of good terran players are agreeing its so easy to beat a zerg as mech it just is I don't know how people can say its balanced :S.
Please don't get me wrong, I certainly don't agree with Avilo's solution. But he at least has the balls to tell people they haven't exhausted the options and I think thats true as well, but with the strategy explored in my earlier post, and not his.
I kind of pride myself in playing Starcraft because the balance in this game is not like WoW. I've played that game and people constantly cry nerf and it's deafening. I pride myself in playing Starcraft because I like to believe that Starcraft players are above that.
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On June 03 2010 15:25 Wr3k wrote:
I am really starting to think this boils down to thor AA being too good. Mech wasn't OP when thor AA sucked. There should be some negative about making 10 tanks. In BW if you had a tank heavy force and Z went heavy mutas, you would lose. There was this relationship where muta>tank, goliath>muta, hydra>goliath, and tank>hydra. No such relationship exists in SC2 because thors AA is just too good.
Even though it's not a fair trade, 4 mutas can take out 1 thor if you're careful not to bunch them up. If all terran has for air defense is thor then a full-out muta switch will kill him. That just doesn't work when there's a few marines sprinkled in the mix, which there always are since the rest of the army is so gas heavy.
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I think some of the reason there's so much crying about TvZ is because most people are not playing in Pro circles...
The skill gap between Terran and Zerg on lower levels is astounding. Most Zerg players i've played against in platinum/gold have about 150 + apm and good macro/micro. Terran players around 30 apm and require little no macro.
Zerg are busy scouting the map, constantly positioning units, preparing for cheese, constantly spawning larvae and macroing while harassing and trying to bust the wall early before his mech is too high to win. This requires a decently skilled player. It truly isn't easy to do...
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are you completely stupid man? please stop posting in here.
1 thor + 2 turrets > 10 muta
2 thor + 2 turrets > 15 muta
3 thor + 4 turrets > 30 muta
Does that sound cost efficient to you ? Also if the terran upgrades his thors ( which he obviously will ) it will be even worse of a raping, oh yea and the building armor upgrade + turret range upgrade. lol.
Hi I'm just a nobody jumping into the topic, and I'm a zerg who thinks Terran mech is imbalanced against Zerg (so I'm not trying to be disagreeable), but I just want to comment on the numbers above. I've been playing around with a unit tester to practice different scenarios (I know it doesn't exactly represent actual gameplay).
1 thor + 2 turrets I can consistently beat with 9 mutas.
2 thors with 8 mutas
2 thors + 2 turrets with 11-12 mutas
3 thors + 4 turrets with 23 mutas
^Tested with 3-3 upgrades on both Mutas and Thors, Thors/Turrets both clumped and spread out (i.e. w/ and w/out muta's splash), and barely any micro on my part. This is of course done by flying the whole muta group over the current target, and not by attack moving, so that they never form a vulnerable arc.
The resource cost--in particular gas--for the Zerg is much higher than the Terran to win the above fights, but so long as it does take out all of his in-base defense, it may be considered tactically sound if it allows you to wipe out his workers or other key buildings, or force units to retreat from elsewhere on the map, overall weakening his position.
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On June 03 2010 15:25 Wr3k wrote:
I am really starting to think this boils down to thor AA being too good. Mech wasn't OP when thor AA sucked. There should be some negative about making 10 tanks. In BW if you had a tank heavy force and Z went heavy mutas, you would lose. There was this relationship where muta>tank, goliath>muta, hydra>goliath, and tank>hydra. No such relationship exists in SC2 because thors AA is just too good.
yeah I think Thor is just too good at the moment, I don't know why Blizzard reduced their size (i guess it was patch 12 or 13) because as they said themselves "Thor didnt really need that"
Thor is just too good against mutalisk while they are also very good against ground unit. Blizzard need to find them their role.
Are thors the AA terran unit and therefore should be good against air but really bad against ground (like goliaths were), in this case they should reduce the ground dammage and change the air dammage so it will be slightly less strong against mutalish and a bit stronger against others air units (void rayds / banshee / broodlords)
or are thors some kind of strong polyvalent unit and therefore their AA power should be really reduced
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On June 03 2010 15:32 CheezDip wrote:Show nested quote +
are you completely stupid man? please stop posting in here.
1 thor + 2 turrets > 10 muta
2 thor + 2 turrets > 15 muta
3 thor + 4 turrets > 30 muta
Does that sound cost efficient to you ? Also if the terran upgrades his thors ( which he obviously will ) it will be even worse of a raping, oh yea and the building armor upgrade + turret range upgrade. lol.
Hi I'm just a nobody jumping into the topic, and I'm a zerg who thinks Terran mech is imbalanced against Zerg (so I'm not trying to be disagreeable), but I just want to comment on the numbers above. I've been playing around with a unit tester to practice different scenarios (I know it doesn't exactly represent actual gameplay). 1 thor + 2 turrets I can consistently beat with 9 mutas. 2 thors with 8 mutas 2 thors + 2 turrets with 11-12 mutas 3 thors + 4 turrets with 23 mutas ^Tested with 3-3 upgrades on both Mutas and Thors, Thors/Turrets both clumped and spread out (i.e. w/ and w/out muta's splash), and barely any micro on my part. This is of course done by flying the whole muta group over the current target, and not by attack moving, so that they never form a vulnerable arc. The resource cost--in particular gas--for the Zerg is much higher than the Terran to win the above fights, but so long as it does take out all of his in-base defense, it may be considered tactically sound if it allows you to wipe out his workers or other key buildings, or force units to retreat from elsewhere on the map, overall weakening his position.
SCV can repair thors and turrets
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On June 03 2010 15:18 Trok67 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 15:14 sadyque wrote:On June 03 2010 15:06 Trok67 wrote:On June 03 2010 14:58 sadyque wrote:
The Moman game only proves balance. Lz actually had better income for the most part of the game. Moman had like 7 bases with no drones and the same income as Lz. If you look at the first battle with the fake drop Lz has a more expensive army than Moman. When lz starts to move down to Mo's expansions 30 speedlings would have wtfpwned all the tanks(either by droppping on them or catching them unsieged). Not to mention that at any time aftert the first battle if the zerg morphed 20 mutas it would have been GG. All the game long Moman uses ONLY 2 UNITS! - roaches and hydras. Lz has tanks, hellions, ravens, vikings and thors. Now what do you expect? A two zerg unit composition army should wtfpwn a well rounded and complete terran army?
lol, the problem is that zerg doesnt have ANY OTHER OPTION than those 2 units. We can invent some other super strong units but they dont exist... infestor = useless against mech mutalisk = completely raped by thors zerglings = raped by hellions and tanks (and also thor since we cant surrond them aswell as before) ultralisk = completely useless (show first 2 replays) broodlords = raped hardly by vikings corruptor = also raped by viking Did i forget any unit ? thor = useless agains infestor NP also crap vs zerglings maraude/hellion/tanksr=useless vs mutalisk hellions =uselss vs roaches marauders = useless vs hydra BC = uselss vs corruptor Blord > all terran ground See wut I did thare? obviously you dont play zerg so let me help you : NP thor doesnt work because infestor are instantly killed by tank, infestor range = 9, tank = 13 ok, and yes some zerg units counter some terrans units, but there is NO hard counter, so the composition tank + thor + hellion + viking finally just rape every composition of zerg army as long as terran adapt slighty his comp seriously do you guys just listen to all the things that have been said ? because you dont add anything to the debate here
stop being stupid. You just listed zerg units and it's terran counter. He did the same with zerg to show that every unit has a counter and your comment is pointless. Take your own advice next time
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EPT
