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OK i think the real problem is the thor's AA. it doesnt make sense... In BW when you had units that did splash to air. valks / sairs. they did lots of little damage shots.. so that spreading and armor upgrades could really help. Thors do insanely large damage ,... and also bonus to light? if they do insane damage AA shouldnt it be bonus to massive? They effectively blow mutals out of the air so fast with insane damage that there is not time to spread and macro... if you try to spread.. they will just blow away one clump move on to the next and so on... where with sairs they might take a while to kill 1 clump before moving to your other clump . giving you time to spread again. If sairs had a slow rate 42 splash attack ... would you really be able to micro against them? Or if valks had 400 hp and no scourge exist could you possibly beat them?
Heres 1 suggestion i thought of . make it so when infestors NP a unit they can swap their energy with the units. So if my infestor survives ( wasnt targetted eg bad micro by terran) i can possibly have taken the thors energy , and get another NP or fungal growth maybe... Its alot of maybes, but it at least rewards the player whos microing well.
Im talking about there would have to be an upgrade for the infestor and a swap energy button you would have to click.
Ok this is a ridiculous idea probly . but also infestor should have an innate ability ( similar to immortal) where it only takes damage to its energy , so it can only die with 0 energy. We can call it Psionic shield or something cheezy. This would be great in tandem with the Energy Swap idea. cause then if you micro fast your chance to escape your infestor goes up,, but your chance to get of another spell goes down against a good microing terran. Also this would make ghosts have an important role in ZvT as well.
Wait wait cut those ideas... Just give Infestor increased energy regeneration underground... Perfect.
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In Broodwar, zerg had leverage when facing mech and that was the mutalisk. A combination of buffed missle turrets, thor splash damage, and viking range really hard counters mutalisks into the ground.
When you faced tanks in broodwar, you hard countered them with mutas to abuse the lack of terran mobility. This forced the terran to cut into his tank totals with goliaths. The difference is, mutalisks could actually go toe to toe with goliaths and SC1 turrets. Now goliaths do splash, missle turrets are on steriods, and valkyries can attack ground and air. This gives terran 3 solid options for battling air, 2 of which do formidable on the ground as well. There is little tension between the powerful immobile force that is terran mech and terran anti air. Mutalisks no longer have the option of dictating the pace of the game because after a certain point, they just get countered too hard.
Nothing is going to stop siege tanks from dominating ground force, this is their purpose. Their weakness is mobility and air units. However, zerg air harass becomes obsolete way too quick, when it should be a strong force to be reckoned with all game for the entire game.
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Terran have better map control then Zerg?...
Wow, I haven't been playing much, been addicted to LOL lately. But, I do not see how Terran can have better map control then Zerg in high level play.
Further more this whole "late game when he has 200/200" blah blah blah, really by the time he gets 200/200, a zerg should have like +2 bases on the terran. Most maps leave terran so exposed, I don't see how turtling is that effective past 2 bases. Zerg just aren't using drops, nydus to their full extent imo.
Hell if Terran is FE try rushing w/ mass lings/banelings I guarantee you will see results.
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On June 03 2010 09:14 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
MoMaN did an excellent job of abusing Lz and playing mind games sniping expansions and doing a great job of using drops fake drops nydus worm everything people are always saying the zerg has to do to beat mech and he STILL lost...
Mech can feel overpowered, but let's not exaggerate. MoMaN lost that game because he didn't build a Spire. After MoMaN killed Lz's gold, Lz's economy was trashed; he didn't have nearly enough gas to build Thors or Vikings in any significant quantity. Transitioning to air instead of throwing away roaches against Tanks would have won MoMaN the game. His loss doesn't have anything to do with mech balancing issues.
EDIT: Do note that I agree with the general idea of the OP; mech against Zerg does need some work. But the Lz vs. MoMaN game doesn't prove anything. Late game Lz just built Tanks because MoMaN didn't even threaten air.
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IMO they should just take out a race (Terran).
2-race RTS games are much easier to balance ^^ Red Alert 2 anyone?
Jokes aside, I fully endorse this idea. It was a huge part of TvP in SC1 to actually micro your tank fire on different blobs of dragoons while your vultures clean up the zealots in front supported by mines.
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Zergs just havent been playing creative enough. Honestly mutalisks are the key for staling long enough to do some great tech switches to throw the Terran off.
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mutalisks are the key for staling
So true. Key for staling to the point of being out of the game.
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On June 03 2010 14:43 kidcrash wrote:
In Broodwar, zerg had leverage when facing mech and that was the mutalisk. A combination of buffed missle turrets, thor splash damage, and viking range really hard counters mutalisks into the ground.
When you faced tanks in broodwar, you hard countered them with mutas to abuse the lack of terran mobility. This forced the terran to cut into his tank totals with goliaths. The difference is, mutalisks could actually go toe to toe with goliaths and SC1 turrets. Now goliaths do splash, missle turrets are on steriods, and valkyries can attack ground and air. This gives terran 3 solid options for battling air, 2 of which do formidable on the ground as well. There is little tension between the powerful immobile force that is terran mech and terran anti air. Mutalisks no longer have the option of dictating the pace of the game because after a certain point, they just get countered too hard.
Nothing is going to stop siege tanks from dominating ground force, this is their purpose. Their weakness is mobility and air units. However, zerg air harass becomes obsolete way too quick, when it should be a strong force to be reckoned with all game for the entire game.
I totally agree, 3 thors shoudln't be able to shit on 15 mutas. If the AOE damage wasn't there or at least was reduced terrans would be forced to back their tanks up with not only thors but marines as well, opening up some real options for zerg.
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On June 03 2010 14:49 DooMDash wrote:
Zergs just havent been playing creative enough. Honestly mutalisks are the key for staling long enough to do some great tech switches to throw the Terran off.
Yeah.. thats it, were not creative enough. I'm pretty sure that between all of the top Z players just about every variation has been attempted, some working better than others. At the end of the day it doesn't work.
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2 words... spawn broodlings.
I used to love the old queen...
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On June 03 2010 13:58 iEchoic wrote:
If you're sitting your thor in the middle of nowhere trying to defend multiple bases where it cannot be repaired
This is how you should've finished this sentence.
You are completely retarded
On June 03 2010 14:49 DooMDash wrote:
Zergs just havent been playing creative enough. Honestly mutalisks are the key for staling long enough to do some great tech switches to throw the Terran off.
wth are you talking about? Haven't we already established nothing a zerg makes can straight up beat a mech army with good composition?
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I'm not trying to say the match up is fine, but MOST zergs are just engaging head on in Diamond league. The match up does need some adjustments, but I don't think its as hard as some Zerg players make it out to be....
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The Moman game only proves balance. Lz actually had better income for the most part of the game. Moman had like 7 bases with no drones and the same income as Lz. If you look at the first battle with the fake drop Lz has a more expensive army than Moman. When lz starts to move down to Mo's expansions 30 speedlings would have wtfpwned all the tanks(either by droppping on them or catching them unsieged). Not to mention that at any time aftert the first battle if the zerg morphed 20 mutas it would have been GG. All the game long Moman uses ONLY 2 UNITS! - roaches and hydras. Lz has tanks, hellions, ravens, vikings and thors. Now what do you expect? A two zerg unit composition army should wtfpwn a well rounded and complete terran army?
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On June 03 2010 14:58 sadyque wrote:
The Moman game only proves balance. Lz actually had better income for the most part of the game. Moman had like 7 bases with no drones and the same income as Lz. If you look at the first battle with the fake drop Lz has a more expensive army than Moman. When lz starts to move down to Mo's expansions 30 speedlings would have wtfpwned all the tanks(either by droppping on them or catching them unsieged). Not to mention that at any time aftert the first battle if the zerg morphed 20 mutas it would have been GG. All the game long Moman uses ONLY 2 UNITS! - roaches and hydras. Lz has tanks, hellions, ravens, vikings and thors. Now what do you expect? A two zerg unit composition army should wtfpwn a well rounded and complete terran army?
lol, the problem is that zerg doesnt have ANY OTHER OPTION than those 2 units. We can invent some other super strong units but they dont exist...
infestor = useless against mech
mutalisk = completely raped by thors
zerglings = raped by hellions and tanks (and also thor since we cant surrond them aswell as before)
ultralisk = completely useless (show first 2 replays)
broodlords = raped hardly by vikings
corruptor = also raped by viking
Did i forget any unit ?
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why are you guys running units into tanks. tanks are 3 food. If you see alot of tanks just go all mutas. Dont even have to get curropters. just straight muta. It takes a pretty long time for t to get max. z should be maxed before then.It he has thors just go to his base and kill stuff there. All this whining on how t mech is unbeatable is really counter productive.
I mean z should be 1 base up on t anyway. You should max faster because of cheaper units and faster production rate/build time. pound for pound mutas kill everything the terrans have outside of thors. if he has thors then just fly else where and kill his bases.
I swear, I have yet to see a t win a tournament and people are crying about how imbalanced t is.
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Ok Zerg will get mutas and they will harass terran expansions until they decide to push.And when they push whats zerg answer????The fetal position???
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On June 03 2010 14:55 Wr3k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 14:49 DooMDash wrote:
Zergs just havent been playing creative enough. Honestly mutalisks are the key for staling long enough to do some great tech switches to throw the Terran off. Yeah.. thats it, were not creative enough. I'm pretty sure that between all of the top Z players just about every variation has been attempted, some working better than others. At the end of the day it doesn't work.
Yes please you should really explain your theory to maka (T) who lost vs cool (Z) in a prize money BO5 tournament. Im sure he was just not paying enough attention considering that maka said quoute "We need to win to feed ourselves".
Name one terran who won a tournament since patch 11? TLO lost TvZ BO% vs Sen with a mech strat he claimed it was unbeatable on EU server. Day9 even made a daily on how imba that strat was. Still Sen wtfpwnedkkthxbyebye him w/o too much trouble. But im sure you zerg guys who post here tried everything and did everything perfecly and Sen/Cool/Dimaga are just lucky to kill terrans in every tournament.
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Alright, I read like the first 7 pages and just really want to say this.
In BW, Zerg's response to terran late game was the defiler right? Dark swarm + lurker vs mech, or dark swarm + ultraling vs infantry. I didn't play BW as competitively as Starcraft 2, so those examples are surely a little inaccurate but its the general idea.
Blizzard WANTS ultralisks to be the solution to Terran mech and the Marauder with the Infestor playing a similar role as the defiler. As bad and terrible as people make ultralisks out to be, has anyone actually seen a mass army of frenzied ultralisk charge at a Terran mech army? In the Qxc vs Sheth game, he surely had the time to make a large infestor/ultraling army and confront this immobile mech army. I watch streams all the time and it's almost always 1-2 ultralisks and rarely more than maybe 5, and never frenzied. Ultralisks have a lot of health and in numbers take a TON of damage before falling. With lings backing them up and some well placed neural parasites, the ultralisks will do some serious damage. I haven't seen this ultilized in Starcraft 2.
Avilo presenting his nydus strategy might be a bad strategy, but it doesn't matter. His point is he isn't convinced that every possible strategy has been exhausted and I'm not either.
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On June 03 2010 09:29 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 09:27 dethrawr wrote:
Its the same in SC1, if zerg lets terran get 200/200 mech zerg will lose.
I don't think its really imbalanced, zerg needs to start using mech's immobility against them with nydus/doom drop play.
Also your 'fix' would be awful :l lol what? I seem to recall plague/swarm/ultralings easily dominating the largest of armies in BW If terran doesnt kill zerg and lets zerg sit on 4+ gas and hive tech then GG for terran imo
If the Terran matches the zerg's resources Terran wins.
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On June 03 2010 15:12 Slipspace wrote:
Alright, I read like the first 7 pages and just really want to say this.
In BW, Zerg's response to terran late game was the defiler right? Dark swarm + lurker vs mech, or dark swarm + ultraling vs infantry. I didn't play BW as competitively as Starcraft 2, so those examples are surely a little inaccurate but its the general idea.
Blizzard WANTS ultralisks to be the solution to Terran mech and the Marauder with the Infestor playing a similar role as the defiler. As bad and terrible as people make ultralisks out to be, has anyone actually seen a mass army of frenzied ultralisk charge at a Terran mech army? In the Qxc vs Sheth game, he surely had the time to make a large infestor/ultraling army and confront this immobile mech army. I watch streams all the time and it's almost always 1-2 ultralisks and rarely more than maybe 5, and never frenzied. Ultralisks have a lot of health and in numbers take a TON of damage before falling. With lings backing them up and some well placed neural parasites, the ultralisks will do some serious damage. I haven't seen this ultilized in Starcraft 2.
Avilo presenting his nydus strategy might be a bad strategy, but it doesn't matter. His point is he isn't convinced that every possible strategy has been exhausted and I'm not either.
Dark swarm was terrible against mech in bw iirc
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EPT
