On June 03 2010 13:34 3clipse wrote: We have no choice but to go by the fallible opinions of the community, and the aggregate opinion of non-terran players (even at the top level, see op) is overwhelmingly that mech is too powerful
That list is a joke, the thread-maker has an agenda. There's no doubt he expended far more effort trying to find voices that agree with him than disagree with him.
Every time I see Zerg vs Mech replays I just see the zerg players spamming roaches and hydras into mech. Every. Single Time. Even high-level players (with the exception of sen). It's like banging your head against the wall and hoping it fixes the problem eventually.
It would make sense to provide an alternative solution while you're criticizing their gameplay. Mutas? Severely countered by thors which have nearly seige tank range. Broodlords? Even if you get the tech, vikings easily prevent you from using them. For every option zerg has, terran seems to have the perfect hard counter with absurd range.
Because all of these perfect counters cost nothing, right? Letting the Terran player go unharmed while harvesting enough gas to get a significant amount of Tanks, Thors, and Vikings is the Zerg player's fault. Not to mention going out of your way to get Sensor Towers to say "lolno" to drops (which is false. If you see a bunch of sensor towers...So what? If they're out of position, they're out of position)
On June 03 2010 13:44 3clipse wrote:Mutas? Severely countered by thors which have nearly seige tank range.
I think this is a HUGE misconception. Thors are not a great counter for Mutas. Sure, Thors beat Mutas if they get in a fight with eachother, impressive. If you define counter by 'what wins when both things a-move eachother', then yeah, it's a fantastic counter.
Having a unit that beats your opponent's unit is worthless if you surrender control of the entire map to have it. You cannot defend multiple bases with a Thor. You need turrets, which are a money sink. You can not attack without static defenses or without leaving a significant amount of defense at home.
Zerg players have this strange misconception that because Mutas beat Thors, and they have mutas and the opponent has thors, they're losing the game. You control the entire map, have the other player contained, and have much better scouting info. If you can't make something of that, you're doing it wrong.
On June 03 2010 13:34 3clipse wrote: We have no choice but to go by the fallible opinions of the community, and the aggregate opinion of non-terran players (even at the top level, see op) is overwhelmingly that mech is too powerful
That list is a joke, the thread-maker has an agenda. There's no doubt he expended far more effort trying to find voices that agree with him than disagree with him.
Every time I see Zerg vs Mech replays I just see the zerg players spamming roaches and hydras into mech. Every. Single Time. Even high-level players (with the exception of sen). It's like banging your head against the wall and hoping it fixes the problem eventually.
It would make sense to provide an alternative solution while you're criticizing their gameplay. Mutas? Severely countered by thors which have nearly seige tank range. Broodlords? Even if you get the tech, vikings easily prevent you from using them. For every option zerg has, terran seems to have the perfect hard counter with absurd range.
Because all of these perfect counters cost nothing, right? Letting the Terran player go unharmed while harvesting enough gas to get a significant amount of Tanks, Thors, and Vikings is the Zerg player's fault.
Exactly what I've been trying to say. What happened to early harass?
On June 03 2010 13:37 drewbie.root wrote: i'm starting to think that iechoic is a troll
First sign that you have no argument: just label the other person a troll.
Sarcasm aside, I'd suggest some Zerg players pick up mech and play it. You'll learn that it does have several weaknesses (or just watch Sen, who is very good at exploiting them).
How about you pick up Zerg, beat mech, post the replays, and then you can claim it's not OP.
Seriously, you are using one player to attempt to claim that something isn't overpowered. You've read the opinions of many dozens of players, Zerg who have been raped by it, Terran who have raped with it and even ****ing Protoss, who have seen the replays and realized how bad Zerg have it, and just because Sen can beat Terran players who aren't as good as he is, it's not OP?
I guess Agent Smith wasn't OP in the Matrix because Neo could beat him, right? Your logic is horrible. Get the **** out.
I think all races need T4 tech UBer hive upgrade and super portal prism. that allows 350 supply... this game is so strange that 100 of your supply will be workers.... and being an advantage early becomes a supreme disadvantage later when you cant mass a big enough army regardless of your income and great macro. i suppose you could make 20 crawlers... but would that really do anything vs mech but waste money? you could also make a million overseer,, but that would be a waste of gas obviously infested terran are lame. also tanks dont seem to splash themselves very hard at all with the new splash... its ridiculous.
On June 03 2010 13:34 3clipse wrote: We have no choice but to go by the fallible opinions of the community, and the aggregate opinion of non-terran players (even at the top level, see op) is overwhelmingly that mech is too powerful
That list is a joke, the thread-maker has an agenda. There's no doubt he expended far more effort trying to find voices that agree with him than disagree with him.
Every time I see Zerg vs Mech replays I just see the zerg players spamming roaches and hydras into mech. Every. Single Time. Even high-level players (with the exception of sen). It's like banging your head against the wall and hoping it fixes the problem eventually.
It would make sense to provide an alternative solution while you're criticizing their gameplay. Mutas? Severely countered by thors which have nearly seige tank range. Broodlords? Even if you get the tech, vikings easily prevent you from using them. For every option zerg has, terran seems to have the perfect hard counter with absurd range.
Because all of these perfect counters cost nothing, right? Letting the Terran player go unharmed while harvesting enough gas to get a significant amount of Tanks, Thors, and Vikings is the Zerg player's fault.
The classic "if it gets to this stage in the game, you deserve to lose" argument. This would make the starcraft 2 absolute shit. Zergs would win every game they managed a successful baneling bust or 1 hatch mutas and terran would win every macro mech game. MAYBE it would pan out to a 50/50 ratio eventually but it would be no fun to play or watch.
On June 03 2010 13:44 3clipse wrote:Mutas? Severely countered by thors which have nearly seige tank range.
Having a unit that beats your opponent's unit is worthless if you surrender control of the entire map to have it. You cannot defend multiple bases with a Thor. You need turrets, which are a money sink. You can not attack without static defenses or without leaving a significant amount of defense at home.
You'd have a point if thors didn't have such absurd range that only 1 or 2 is needed to defend a main + natural.
On June 03 2010 13:34 3clipse wrote: We have no choice but to go by the fallible opinions of the community, and the aggregate opinion of non-terran players (even at the top level, see op) is overwhelmingly that mech is too powerful
That list is a joke, the thread-maker has an agenda. There's no doubt he expended far more effort trying to find voices that agree with him than disagree with him.
Every time I see Zerg vs Mech replays I just see the zerg players spamming roaches and hydras into mech. Every. Single Time. Even high-level players (with the exception of sen). It's like banging your head against the wall and hoping it fixes the problem eventually.
It would make sense to provide an alternative solution while you're criticizing their gameplay. Mutas? Severely countered by thors which have nearly seige tank range. Broodlords? Even if you get the tech, vikings easily prevent you from using them. For every option zerg has, terran seems to have the perfect hard counter with absurd range.
Because all of these perfect counters cost nothing, right? Letting the Terran player go unharmed while harvesting enough gas to get a significant amount of Tanks, Thors, and Vikings is the Zerg player's fault.
The classic "if it gets to this stage in the game, you deserve to lose" argument. This would make the starcraft 2 absolute shit. Zergs would win every game they managed a successful baneling bust or 1 hatch mutas and terran would win every macro mech game. MAYBE it would pan out to a 50/50 ratio eventually but it would be no fun to play or watch.
Except the argument made sense. You're saying that the Terran opponent has 200/200, 3/3 Tanks, Thors, Vikings (which are 2 different branches of upgrades), and sensor towers and turrets everywhere, and you don't have enough resources for 200/200 3/3 Mutas to attack their bases while their extremely immobile army crawls to your front door?
Also, the thing is, a build based off of mech play has weaknesses. Use them. It creates an inherent weakness in the build. Late-game scenarios are not the only important parts of a build.
On June 03 2010 13:55 3clipse wrote: You might have had a point if thors didn't have such absurd range that only 1 or 2 is needed to defend a main + natural.
Here's some important things though:
- Thors can actually be killed by mutalisks. This is something that Zerg players seem to completely ignore. They act like because Thors counter mutas, thors can not be killed by them. If you're sitting your thor in the middle of nowhere trying to defend multiple bases where it cannot be repaired, smart Zerg players (read: barely any) can just kill your Thor. I very rarely see zerg players try to kill a solo defensive thor with mutas and even more rarely see zerg players try to spread out their mutas. I don't know the exact amount of mutas it takes to kill a thor, it's worth opening the map editor and checking. Spread them out and take it down.
- The counter to this is keeping your thor near your mineral line (so it can be repaired). This keeps you from defending multiple bases. Either way, you have an opportunity.
I have a question for everyone here who thinks Mech is overpowered:
Given that even pro players at the moment basically move everything in a giant ball, and this will likely be less common as the skill level increases, this will make siege tanks and thors (splash damage) less powerful. Don't you think it's premature/bad practice to nerf something that can be effectively weakened with the application of micro?
On June 03 2010 13:34 3clipse wrote: We have no choice but to go by the fallible opinions of the community, and the aggregate opinion of non-terran players (even at the top level, see op) is overwhelmingly that mech is too powerful
That list is a joke, the thread-maker has an agenda. There's no doubt he expended far more effort trying to find voices that agree with him than disagree with him.
Every time I see Zerg vs Mech replays I just see the zerg players spamming roaches and hydras into mech. Every. Single Time. Even high-level players (with the exception of sen). It's like banging your head against the wall and hoping it fixes the problem eventually.
It would make sense to provide an alternative solution while you're criticizing their gameplay. Mutas? Severely countered by thors which have nearly seige tank range. Broodlords? Even if you get the tech, vikings easily prevent you from using them. For every option zerg has, terran seems to have the perfect hard counter with absurd range.
Because all of these perfect counters cost nothing, right? Letting the Terran player go unharmed while harvesting enough gas to get a significant amount of Tanks, Thors, and Vikings is the Zerg player's fault.
The classic "if it gets to this stage in the game, you deserve to lose" argument. This would make the starcraft 2 absolute shit. Zergs would win every game they managed a successful baneling bust or 1 hatch mutas and terran would win every macro mech game. MAYBE it would pan out to a 50/50 ratio eventually but it would be no fun to play or watch.
good point =] also, its really not hard at all for terran to defend any allin from the zerg when going mech. Just make a proper wall to stop baneling busts, and good scouting > mutas. Mass lings is a decent opener but again, if the T is paying attention then he will just sit and make like 8 blue-flame hellion and r a p e any lings.
On June 03 2010 13:30 Mack wrote: +1 supply siege tanks.
Will someone please set me straight about this so I can stop thinking it's a decent idea. It seems like everyone's in agreement that the problem stems from late game. Changing tank targeting AI or damage is going to bork up early-mid and we'll have gotten nowhere. Changing tank supply from 3 to 4 will have a pretty negligible effect until we start approaching the 200 cap.
In the LZ v MoMaN match, MoMan was 50 supply ahead when he hit 200/200.
In the QXC v Sheth LT, Sheth's maxed army of ultras and roaches couldn't even get near QXC's tanks, all while QXC had 70 supply elsewhere.
Remember whatever change you make to t, in a tvz will also affect t, in a tvp mabye negative mabye not.
Wouldn't a fix to tanks be a travel time on their shot rather than a nerf to their AI? This would make them behave like pretty much every other range unit in the game where you'd need to manually stagger their position/sieging time or they could have shots overkilling targets, or at the very least not maximizing splash potential automatically.
On June 03 2010 13:50 iEchoic wrote: Zerg players have this strange misconception that because Mutas beat Thors, and they have mutas and the opponent has thors, they're losing the game. You control the entire map, have the other player contained, and have much better scouting info. If you can't make something of that, you're doing it wrong.
I completely agree with this, but it's missing the 2nd part of the situation. The Terran doesn't need to care. So what if the Terran is contained? You can't win with only air harass if the other player prepares defenses for it. Missile turrets and thors are sufficient enough to defend a base and eventually that Terran is going to hit critical tank mass and be able to crawl his way across the map. There are also a lot of risks with mutas, for example you're weak to certain pushes as you try to get a mass of mutas that force map control.
On June 03 2010 13:34 3clipse wrote: We have no choice but to go by the fallible opinions of the community, and the aggregate opinion of non-terran players (even at the top level, see op) is overwhelmingly that mech is too powerful
That list is a joke, the thread-maker has an agenda. There's no doubt he expended far more effort trying to find voices that agree with him than disagree with him.
Every time I see Zerg vs Mech replays I just see the zerg players spamming roaches and hydras into mech. Every. Single Time. Even high-level players (with the exception of sen). It's like banging your head against the wall and hoping it fixes the problem eventually.
It would make sense to provide an alternative solution while you're criticizing their gameplay. Mutas? Severely countered by thors which have nearly seige tank range. Broodlords? Even if you get the tech, vikings easily prevent you from using them. For every option zerg has, terran seems to have the perfect hard counter with absurd range.
Because all of these perfect counters cost nothing, right? Letting the Terran player go unharmed while harvesting enough gas to get a significant amount of Tanks, Thors, and Vikings is the Zerg player's fault.
The classic "if it gets to this stage in the game, you deserve to lose" argument. This would make the starcraft 2 absolute shit. Zergs would win every game they managed a successful baneling bust or 1 hatch mutas and terran would win every macro mech game. MAYBE it would pan out to a 50/50 ratio eventually but it would be no fun to play or watch.
good point =] also, its really not hard at all for terran to defend any allin from the zerg when going mech. Just make a proper wall to stop baneling busts, and good scouting > mutas. Mass lings is a decent opener but again, if the T is paying attention then he will just sit and make like 8 blue-flame hellion and r a p e any lings.
On June 03 2010 13:55 3clipse wrote: You might have had a point if thors didn't have such absurd range that only 1 or 2 is needed to defend a main + natural.
Here's some important things though:
- Thors can actually be killed by mutalisks. This is something that Zerg players seem to completely ignore. They act like because Thors counter mutas, thors can not be killed by them. If you're sitting your thor in the middle of nowhere trying to defend multiple bases where it cannot be repaired, smart Zerg players (read: barely any) can just kill your Thor. I very rarely see zerg players try to kill a solo defensive thor with mutas and even more rarely see zerg players try to spread out their mutas. I don't know the exact amount of mutas it takes to kill a thor, it's worth opening the map editor and checking. Spread them out and take it down.
- The counter to this is keeping your thor near your mineral line (so it can be repaired). This keeps you from defending multiple bases. Either way, you have an opportunity.
Ok against a good terran what good terran leaves his thor in the wide open for muta to kill? No good terrans see how I can use the same argument to you?
Thors are an amazing counter to muta 1 thor at main + nat is really all you need with a turret or 2 and there is no way muta are gonna kill your economy. If you try to kill the thor will the terran will repair the thor unless he's bad or something.
Right now Mech is insanely strong and rediculous how strong it is and I agree with the OP on removing the smart AI for tanks. I think that would probably balance it out as I had never thought bout that. If the tanks in Broodwar had the smart AI of tanks in sc2 I bet they would be just as imbalanced. Great thinking OP I wish blizzard would actually consider it too bad they won't
On June 03 2010 13:55 3clipse wrote: You might have had a point if thors didn't have such absurd range that only 1 or 2 is needed to defend a main + natural.
Here's some important things though:
- Thors can actually be killed by mutalisks. This is something that Zerg players seem to completely ignore. They act like because Thors counter mutas, thors can not be killed by them. If you're sitting your thor in the middle of nowhere trying to defend multiple bases where it cannot be repaired, smart Zerg players (read: barely any) can just kill your Thor. I very rarely see zerg players try to kill a solo defensive thor with mutas and even more rarely see zerg players try to spread out their mutas. I don't know the exact amount of mutas it takes to kill a thor, it's worth opening the map editor and checking. Spread them out and take it down.
- The counter to this is keeping your thor near your mineral line (so it can be repaired). This keeps you from defending multiple bases. Either way, you have an opportunity.
Ok against a good terran what good terran leaves his thor in the wide open for muta to kill? No good terrans see how I can use the same argument to you?
Read the guy I was responding to. That's what he said the T would do and was what he was complaining about. Unless he means walking from one mineral line to the other, which takes quite a long time.
Aberu, you made me rise from sleep to lol at you. Thanks. <3
"I'll agree that the drops aren't the best idea, but how many of these top players have incorporated ultras? None, ultras were rebalanced as anti mech, but for some reason no one uses them. And the nydus isn't just for in the base to blow it up, it's also for ledges to attack mineral lines and have unscouted high ground advantage in early/mid."
On June 03 2010 09:14 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Remove this:
Siege tanks have a smart AI that refuses to overkill targets, it sounds good it seems like a great idea at first because oh tanks wound up wasting a lot of shots vs fast units like speedlings in broodwar. But the problem is without the tanks wasting shots it's not possible for a zerg ground army to get into position to kill anything more than just a few tanks. Again watch the replays if you disagree, I think that if the smart AI is removed so that tanks waste shots a zerg will still take HEAVY losses but if they're in a situation that Sheth was in where he was ridiculously far ahead in macro able to rebuild 200/200 armies in less than a minute it would then be possible to break the mech.
Maybe you are not supposed to be able to do it with a GROUND army? Artificially making units dumb is a bad idea and communicating targets in a high-tech army should be state of the art.
Banelings dont hurt your own units, but siege tank splash is a big killer. Dropping some units right into the middle of the tanks is a viable tactic, right? At least it was in Starcraft 1 if you managed to pull it off.
Mech TvZ, as it is, is probably overpowered. However, I don't think it's really that severe. It's beatable, but its just heavily in the Terran's favour, meaning zerg has to do almost everything right...whatever that may be.
I think tanks should melt everything on the ground in high enough numbers. A tank nerf such as no more smart target selection might fix the matchup but it would have profound consequences on other matchups...which may not exactly be ideal.
The issue here is that Zerg doesn't have a good enough alternative.
Corruptor + Broodlord has potential but is shut down by Ravens with PDDs and HSM.
I'm thinking that it'd probably work out if Corruptor shots can't be intercepted. Corruptors would then be able beat Viking/Raven, allowing Broodlords to rip up the ground (Thors suck against both Corruptors and Broodlords).This would probably just result in more HSMs, which also splash friendlies anyway and by flying your corruptor ball at their viking ball it'd hurt the terran almost as much as it'd hurt you.
This will not affect any other matchup, since no other race can intercept corruptor shots. Even if further corruptor buffs are needed, corruptors are fairly pathetic units as they are having the niche application of killing colossi anyway, and buffing them probably would be good. (Maybe something like the Devourer's attack mechanic in SCBW instead of castable corruption so they really dominate the air better, being quite expensive units)
An alternative would be an ultra buff...something that would protect ultras from getting smushed by sieged tanks...but that really seems far fetched seeing as ultras have always melted to sieged tanks even in SCBW.
On June 03 2010 13:36 Aberu wrote: The terran mech complaints remind me of back in the days of Command and Conquer Red Alert 2.
I stopped reading here
Well you shouldn't have. The truth is that game was highly competitive as well, and there were people that would complain that allied tech was better than soviet tech. But the fact was, that was part of the balance of the game, soviet's job was to not let allied tech up. I think that zerg's job is to get map control, and contain the enemy and harass their econ whilst still holding their own macro strong.
Does anyone use nydus worms? Does anyone overlord drop on these mech turtlers?
how many do we need to repeat the same damn things ? Nydus worms ONLY WORKS if the terran players is BAD and don't spot the nydos worm in his base. Drop overlord for what ? See all our army getting killed by tank spread among his base ? He can also simply deny our drop and just into our base and simply destroy our base, base switch isnt at the advantage of the zerg player.
And the balance of the game is not suppose to be like : Race A should win before 10 min otherwise race A loose.
I'll agree that the drops aren't the best idea, but how many of these top players have incorporated ultras? None, ultras were rebalanced as anti mech, but for some reason no one uses them. And the nydus isn't just for in the base to blow it up, it's also for ledges to attack mineral lines and have unscouted high ground advantage in early/mid.
Also that kinda is how a game that has a supply cap of 200 (CnC games with no supply cap, or any supply at all), sounds to me! I mean if you can't beat them unit for unit, why not beat them when unit for unit you win in some way?
lol ultra, just look at the 2 replays in the OP, and you will understand. Epic fail
EPT
