|
|
|
Thanks for another great interview
Always enjoy Rotterdam contents and agree with most of what he said in regards to sc2 stuff.
People really need to stop boosting and overrating the skills level during kespa 2015.
|
United States33495 Posts
metas will come and go in actual SC2 games, but the GOAT-debate meta will always be valid in SC content 
|
On October 22 2025 10:13 Waxangel wrote:metas will come and go in actual SC2 games, but the GOAT-debate meta will always be valid in SC content
The guy bugging out on the Reddit thread made my day 😆
|
On October 22 2025 06:09 TeamMamba wrote:
Thanks for another great interview
Always enjoy Rotterdam contents and agree with most of what he said in regards to sc2 stuff.
People really need to stop boosting and overrating the skills level during kespa 2015.
Google the concept of absolute versus relative comparisons and apply it to your kespa 2015 comment and then see if you can understand what's going on here. It's a fairly simple concept applied regularly in other games and sports, but somehow confuses SC fans. Most chess play from past world champions--including Garry Kasparov, the GOAT--would be considered iffy (if not completely refuted) by modern standards. Relative to chess understandings of the time Kasparov's play was of course genius. In case that helps you understand better.
|
Did Serral win a Zotac cup though?
|
Northern Ireland26192 Posts
On October 22 2025 14:26 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2025 06:09 TeamMamba wrote:
Thanks for another great interview
Always enjoy Rotterdam contents and agree with most of what he said in regards to sc2 stuff.
People really need to stop boosting and overrating the skills level during kespa 2015. Google the concept of absolute versus relative comparisons and apply it to your kespa 2015 comment and then see if you can understand what's going on here. It's a fairly simple concept applied regularly in other games and sports, but somehow confuses SC fans. Most chess play from past world champions--including Garry Kasparov, the GOAT--would be considered iffy (if not completely refuted) by modern standards. Relative to chess understandings of the time Kasparov's play was of course genius. In case that helps you understand better.
Plenty make the argument that the Kespa era was better skill-wise though as well. Not merely that it was an era with more competitive depth.
Unlike many other sports, the scene has completely changed about 4 times structurally, so comparing does get rather tricky.
Equally we’re not talking massive spans of time either. It is rather confusing in ways sure.
For me it’s Serral, partly because there isn’t really an outstanding counter-candidate from pre-Serral times. If there was a properly dominant, Flash-esque player in the Kespa era, that player probably is the GOAT.
As is, that player doesn’t really exist. And Serral’s playing against the existing hall of famers, without training in full-time team houses and they can’t really keep up.
I think Serral’s accomplishments go a little under the radar, as absurd as that sounds because the scene has gone on, and on. He smashed a seemingly unbreakable ceiling, basically as a solo player doing his thing.
Years of decline, the scene having a mere handful of genuine contenders, and other foreigners lifting WCs is kind of the norm we’re accustomed to, but in a way it detracts from the greatness of what Serral was doing way back in 2018 because we’ve got accustomed to it.
|
Kespa era was definitely the most competitive, but not the highest-skilled. Valuing Kespa achievements highly is valid, but the funny thing is that the other goat contenders who get talked about (Rogue and Maru) have most of their achievements post-Kespa (Maru was a very good Kespa era player, but was nowhere near the goat debate pre-2018.)
If you took Kespa >>> all very seriously, Inno would probably be the GOAT? But then what do his poor results post-2017 (with the exception of the WESG win) mean? Okay, Inno had motivation issues, but Serral/Rogue/Maru still cleaned house with many players who were better than them during Kespa.
|
Nice interview.. I like the longer format and learning more about the backgrounds of the interviewed
No surprises that Rotti sees Serral as the GOAT... I would have liked to hear follow-ups on the remark about many Koreans seeing it the same way.
Anyways, good job!
|
It's hard to judge a player's career time while still being in it. Mvp wasn't seen as the absolute goat during wol at all, only upon hots did ppl start looking back and seeing him as the king of wings, looking back life was the best during kespa time + wol, and sOs and inno went above in post kespa. Because serral is still dominating after so many years can either mean that perhaps he tru;y is the greatest, or perhaps the scene is just not what it once was. I think it would be a mistake to take for granted how much he started to dominate and so suddenly, but at the same time I get annoyed when ppl think sc2 is all about mechanics and use the execution of top 3 players today as evidence against the kespa regime, when the game is so much more than being able to max out as fast as possible against the ai, or some other benchmark of execution.
|
United States1905 Posts
Only a complete sicko would enjoy the 2016 Blizzcon finals.
|
On October 22 2025 23:17 ejozl wrote:
It's hard to judge a player's career time while still being in it. Mvp wasn't seen as the absolute goat during wol at all, only upon hots did ppl start looking back and seeing him as the king of wings, looking back life was the best during kespa time + wol, and sOs and inno went above in post kespa. Because serral is still dominating after so many years can either mean that perhaps he tru;y is the greatest, or perhaps the scene is just not what it once was. I think it would be a mistake to take for granted how much he started to dominate and so suddenly, but at the same time I get annoyed when ppl think sc2 is all about mechanics and use the execution of top 3 players today as evidence against the kespa regime, when the game is so much more than being able to max out as fast as possible against the ai, or some other benchmark of execution.
Serral's longevity is noteworthy but imo also a symptome of the state of the scene. It's not just Serral even though he's the most consistent, but the overall field of championship contenders has hardly changed in the last years. The elite tier of players has pretty much remained the same for the last 7-8 years with the exception of Dark and Rogue leaving for military, herO returning and Clem finally overcoming the hurdle of international LAN events.
Compare that to the more competitive days where even by month to month basis the tournament favorites would change, I attribute this largely to the fact there just aren't any other players challenging the top dogs and they can just keep winning forever without any competition.
So of course over time the last remaining top players will accumulate the most amount of achievements, and with Serral as the best of the last generation he accordingly has the most achievements. Does that make him the Goat? Probably I guess since I don't think anyone else deserves this title, but it's still not comparable to someone like Flash who dominated during his games competitive peak.
|
On October 22 2025 23:17 ejozl wrote:
It's hard to judge a player's career time while still being in it. Mvp wasn't seen as the absolute goat during wol at all, only upon hots did ppl start looking back and seeing him as the king of wings, looking back life was the best during kespa time + wol, and sOs and inno went above in post kespa. Because serral is still dominating after so many years can either mean that perhaps he tru;y is the greatest, or perhaps the scene is just not what it once was. I think it would be a mistake to take for granted how much he started to dominate and so suddenly, but at the same time I get annoyed when ppl think sc2 is all about mechanics and use the execution of top 3 players today as evidence against the kespa regime, when the game is so much more than being able to max out as fast as possible against the ai, or some other benchmark of execution.
Agreed. If there is anyone who's the GOAT before 2018, it would not be Maru but MVP, Life, sOs, or Innovation. I would consider Taeja if Maru is on the table. Since in this hypothetical situation we would be weighing 2013-2015 a lot and he was only a tad below Life. Taeja had such a crazy amount of tournament wins where players like Innovation, sOs, Life, MMA, MC etc. would compete. (And don't say those prize pools weren't big enough those other players didn't care and only Taeja did etc. Making $10k in 1 weekend of time is a lot more time-wise than prepping and playing months of a GSL season). Maru's time came after.
|
United States33495 Posts
On October 22 2025 23:17 ejozl wrote:
It's hard to judge a player's career time while still being in it. Mvp wasn't seen as the absolute goat during wol at all, only upon hots did ppl start looking back and seeing him as the king of wings, looking back life was the best during kespa time + wol, and sOs and inno went above in post kespa. Because serral is still dominating after so many years can either mean that perhaps he tru;y is the greatest, or perhaps the scene is just not what it once was. I think it would be a mistake to take for granted how much he started to dominate and so suddenly, but at the same time I get annoyed when ppl think sc2 is all about mechanics and use the execution of top 3 players today as evidence against the kespa regime, when the game is so much more than being able to max out as fast as possible against the ai, or some other benchmark of execution.
Gonna heavily disagree with your recollection of Mvp here—IMO winning 2012 Season 2 sealed the deal for a lot of fans during the game's early history.
|
On October 22 2025 19:03 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2025 14:26 rwala wrote:On October 22 2025 06:09 TeamMamba wrote:
Thanks for another great interview
Always enjoy Rotterdam contents and agree with most of what he said in regards to sc2 stuff.
People really need to stop boosting and overrating the skills level during kespa 2015. Google the concept of absolute versus relative comparisons and apply it to your kespa 2015 comment and then see if you can understand what's going on here. It's a fairly simple concept applied regularly in other games and sports, but somehow confuses SC fans. Most chess play from past world champions--including Garry Kasparov, the GOAT--would be considered iffy (if not completely refuted) by modern standards. Relative to chess understandings of the time Kasparov's play was of course genius. In case that helps you understand better. Plenty make the argument that the Kespa era was better skill-wise though as well. Not merely that it was an era with more competitive depth. Unlike many other sports, the scene has completely changed about 4 times structurally, so comparing does get rather tricky. Equally we’re not talking massive spans of time either. It is rather confusing in ways sure. For me it’s Serral, partly because there isn’t really an outstanding counter-candidate from pre-Serral times. If there was a properly dominant, Flash-esque player in the Kespa era, that player probably is the GOAT. As is, that player doesn’t really exist. And Serral’s playing against the existing hall of famers, without training in full-time team houses and they can’t really keep up. I think Serral’s accomplishments go a little under the radar, as absurd as that sounds because the scene has gone on, and on. He smashed a seemingly unbreakable ceiling, basically as a solo player doing his thing. Years of decline, the scene having a mere handful of genuine contenders, and other foreigners lifting WCs is kind of the norm we’re accustomed to, but in a way it detracts from the greatness of what Serral was doing way back in 2018 because we’ve got accustomed to it.
You're 100% right that SC2 is different than pretty much every other sport and game. I'm not aware of any other one besides perhaps baseball in which the consensus GOAT pick never competed in the most competitive leagues and tournaments in the most competitive era of the game. Certainly I'm not aware of GOATs from other sports and games that got easy quals verging on auto-entries into premier international tournaments and world championships while all other GOAT contenders were nerfed in this regard (I'm pretty sure every KR GOAT contender missed out on multiple such tournaments). I missed all Serral's games against Mvp and the other Kespa era hall of famers, can you link them? Jokes aside, I think your casually incorrect overstatement demonstrates some of the key analytical problems people are having here. In any event, I wasn't really trying to challenge the Serral = GOAT consensus/cult/etc. I am trying to challenge folks to see outside of their confirmation bias and understand how normal fans of other games and sports understand GOATs. I honestly think for many SC2 fans and pros this comes down to "best" = GOAT, and Serral is almost certainly the best so he's a good pick. I'm not sure it's helpful or adds much credibility to exaggerate and say ridiculous things like he beat every hall of famer while he was a student playing part-time.
|
On October 22 2025 20:03 dysenterymd wrote:
Kespa era was definitely the most competitive, but not the highest-skilled. Valuing Kespa achievements highly is valid, but the funny thing is that the other goat contenders who get talked about (Rogue and Maru) have most of their achievements post-Kespa (Maru was a very good Kespa era player, but was nowhere near the goat debate pre-2018.)
If you took Kespa >>> all very seriously, Inno would probably be the GOAT? But then what do his poor results post-2017 (with the exception of the WESG win) mean? Okay, Inno had motivation issues, but Serral/Rogue/Maru still cleaned house with many players who were better than them during Kespa.
MJ's few "good" seasons with the Wizards are an absolute non-factor re: his GOAT candidacy and you really should just extend that same logic to Inno whatever the reasons for his drop-off. You're right about Rogue but Maru was the best player in the world for many stints pre-2018.
|
|
|
On October 23 2025 14:49 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2025 19:03 WombaT wrote:On October 22 2025 14:26 rwala wrote:On October 22 2025 06:09 TeamMamba wrote:
Thanks for another great interview
Always enjoy Rotterdam contents and agree with most of what he said in regards to sc2 stuff.
People really need to stop boosting and overrating the skills level during kespa 2015. Google the concept of absolute versus relative comparisons and apply it to your kespa 2015 comment and then see if you can understand what's going on here. It's a fairly simple concept applied regularly in other games and sports, but somehow confuses SC fans. Most chess play from past world champions--including Garry Kasparov, the GOAT--would be considered iffy (if not completely refuted) by modern standards. Relative to chess understandings of the time Kasparov's play was of course genius. In case that helps you understand better. Plenty make the argument that the Kespa era was better skill-wise though as well. Not merely that it was an era with more competitive depth. Unlike many other sports, the scene has completely changed about 4 times structurally, so comparing does get rather tricky. Equally we’re not talking massive spans of time either. It is rather confusing in ways sure. For me it’s Serral, partly because there isn’t really an outstanding counter-candidate from pre-Serral times. If there was a properly dominant, Flash-esque player in the Kespa era, that player probably is the GOAT. As is, that player doesn’t really exist. And Serral’s playing against the existing hall of famers, without training in full-time team houses and they can’t really keep up. I think Serral’s accomplishments go a little under the radar, as absurd as that sounds because the scene has gone on, and on. He smashed a seemingly unbreakable ceiling, basically as a solo player doing his thing. Years of decline, the scene having a mere handful of genuine contenders, and other foreigners lifting WCs is kind of the norm we’re accustomed to, but in a way it detracts from the greatness of what Serral was doing way back in 2018 because we’ve got accustomed to it. You're 100% right that SC2 is different than pretty much every other sport and game. I'm not aware of any other one besides perhaps baseball in which the consensus GOAT pick never competed in the most competitive leagues and tournaments in the most competitive era of the game. Certainly I'm not aware of GOATs from other sports and games that got easy quals verging on auto-entries into premier international tournaments and world championships while all other GOAT contenders were nerfed in this regard (I'm pretty sure every KR GOAT contender missed out on multiple such tournaments). I missed all Serral's games against Mvp and the other Kespa era hall of famers, can you link them? Jokes aside, I think your casually incorrect overstatement demonstrates some of the key analytical problems people are having here. In any event, I wasn't really trying to challenge the Serral = GOAT consensus/cult/etc. I am trying to challenge folks to see outside of their confirmation bias and understand how normal fans of other games and sports understand GOATs. I honestly think for many SC2 fans and pros this comes down to "best" = GOAT, and Serral is almost certainly the best so he's a good pick. I'm not sure it's helpful or adds much credibility to exaggerate and say ridiculous things like he beat every hall of famer while he was a student playing part-time.
Trying to chip away at Serral on the basis that he was not born Korean (as the implication is him missing a "proper" GSL win in his resume) is a weak leg to stand on, as was pointed out several times. He on multiple occasions showed to be perfectly able to win competitively even in Korea and in tournaments with top Korean participation on the international stage when competition was insanely strong. As Rotti stated, Serral did so with numbers that no one else was/is able to match in the slightest.
So you missed all of Serral's games against Mvp? Then you missed also all of Mvp's games against Serral, as the argument goes both ways. It would actually be quite ironic to pick Mvp to prove a point, as he has way less games than Serral against the greatest players of SC2.
He played the same amounts of games against Rain as Serral (2). He only played twice against TY. Against herO, Life, sOs, soO as well as Inno he only played once. And Mvp never played Dark, Maru, Classic, Rogue, Zest, Trap, Stats, MaxPax or Reynor while Serral demolished all of the aforementioned multiple times over several years with insane match win rates (except Life, whom he never played and Rain and Rogue against whom the record is somehow even).
This is what Rotti points out in the video: To claim that Serral only played outside of competitiveness is utterly absurd and has no basis in reality. He has a more than sufficient display against the Prime SC2 greats and against guys who were forged in that time and exploded later like Dark.
As we had this discussion multiple times, you know my stance by now: If you disagree that Serral is the GOAT - that is fine, but please use factual takes to support your claims.
Similar to your reply to WombaT, who didn't say that he "he beat every hall of famer while he was a student playing part-time". WombaT's words were "Serral’s playing against the existing hall of famers, without training in full-time team houses and they can’t really keep up".
There is no absolute claim about "every" hall of famer involved and the hyperbolic exaggeration of Serral being a "student playing part-time" is also not present in the original text.
|
On October 23 2025 03:18 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2025 23:17 ejozl wrote:
It's hard to judge a player's career time while still being in it. Mvp wasn't seen as the absolute goat during wol at all, only upon hots did ppl start looking back and seeing him as the king of wings, looking back life was the best during kespa time + wol, and sOs and inno went above in post kespa. Because serral is still dominating after so many years can either mean that perhaps he tru;y is the greatest, or perhaps the scene is just not what it once was. I think it would be a mistake to take for granted how much he started to dominate and so suddenly, but at the same time I get annoyed when ppl think sc2 is all about mechanics and use the execution of top 3 players today as evidence against the kespa regime, when the game is so much more than being able to max out as fast as possible against the ai, or some other benchmark of execution. Gonna heavily disagree with your recollection of Mvp here—IMO winning 2012 Season 2 sealed the deal for a lot of fans during the game's early history.
He's not alone, I also was around all through WoL and I also am a bit confused by the "MVP is the untouchable GOAT of Wings" fervor that others seem to recall.
But I think maybe the problem is just one of relative perspective. Back in 2012 I don't recall that people would have been talking about whether or not MVP was "the GOAT" or even the greatest player of all time with emphasis on the all time. SC2 was a new game, and we all assumed it would have a lot of history going forward, just like BW. People very much did discuss and argue (on both sides) over whether he was "a bonjwa," and I would say something approaching a consensus ultimately accepted that he was. But a bonjwa is not exactly the same thing as *the GOAT* imo.
I agree that Life is the main retrospective loser in terms of people forgetting about how dominant and iconic he really was at his peak, and how long that peak was. But there are obvious reasons for that.
|
On October 23 2025 15:01 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2025 20:03 dysenterymd wrote:
Kespa era was definitely the most competitive, but not the highest-skilled. Valuing Kespa achievements highly is valid, but the funny thing is that the other goat contenders who get talked about (Rogue and Maru) have most of their achievements post-Kespa (Maru was a very good Kespa era player, but was nowhere near the goat debate pre-2018.)
If you took Kespa >>> all very seriously, Inno would probably be the GOAT? But then what do his poor results post-2017 (with the exception of the WESG win) mean? Okay, Inno had motivation issues, but Serral/Rogue/Maru still cleaned house with many players who were better than them during Kespa.
MJ's few "good" seasons with the Wizards are an absolute non-factor re: his GOAT candidacy and you really should just extend that same logic to Inno whatever the reasons for his drop-off. You're right about Rogue but Maru was the best player in the world for many stints pre-2018.
Maru had 2 starleague wins, a bunch of deep runs, and a great proleague career pre-2018. sOs, Inno, Life, and Zest had clearly better Kespa careers than Maru, while players like Classic/soO/Rain/Soulkey/herO were in around Maru's ballpark depending on how you value certain achievements (2nd places vs 1st places, proleague vs non starleague championships, etc.)
I actually do think Maru being one of the top 10 most accomplished players of the most competitive era helps his case for goat significantly. I also think the community doesn't rate proleague success highly enough (I don't know the exact conversion factor, but players like Maru/Inno being so amazing in proleague has to be worth at least one starleague, right?) But it's still true that most of Maru's accomplishments are post Kespa.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
