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Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
"Sheth is not even trying for the last 3 games he is playing like a wood league player. He didn't need to do anything sheth was just playing like ass don't need to hars or do anything when the player you are fighting is playing like a silver league player. Ultras suck we have know this from the start of the game don't know why sheth didn't" | ||
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koppik
United States676 Posts
On June 03 2010 12:41 IdrA wrote: What, the one game Rainbow won was on steppes of war. TLO's wins he barely got, and mostly from being clever (or bunker rushing).maka doesnt use mech.. he either does 1 base 2 fac + marine allins or plays bio + 2 fac tank do you people not even watch the games you're commenting on? you really think tlo and rainbow executed well in those games? tlo barely even uses sensor towers. Actually, on that topic, why doesn't copying what Check does on all of the other games in the series against Rainbow work fine? I mean, just from the ladder (pre-patch 12 when this mech stuff wasn't happening really) and background, Check shouldn't be that much better than Rainbow, but he raped Rainbow in that series. And Rainbow turtled and meched some, like on Scrap Station. Check even made some big mistakes that game like morphing too many broodlords. I suppose it's possible that some mech builds--when they're smoothed out--might be imbalanced. But we haven't seen that yet. | ||
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tubs
764 Posts
On June 03 2010 12:41 IdrA wrote: maka doesnt use mech.. he either does 1 base 2 fac + marine allins or plays bio + 2 fac tank do you people not even watch the games you're commenting on? That's just misleading. For one, maka doesn't use the same build every single game like you do. He's even raped you with mass ravens long before the roach nerf, durrr? He's done quick battlecruiser rushes, 1/1//1 rax/fac/starport thor drops "pure mech" with floating the barracks. His zerg lately has been mostly helion harrass followed by mass tanks + thor + marines. He uses the marines as a mineral sink since he's gas limited by the majority of his mech army. When he feels he can win early he'll upgrade the marines too, sometimes not. To say he doesn't use mech is hogwash. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
The only player I see play the correct anti-mech style is Sen. The other Zerg players just spend time whining instead of working out counters. | ||
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ROOTdrewbie
Canada1392 Posts
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Trok67
France384 Posts
On June 03 2010 12:57 Sheth wrote: Zeke, I clearly didn't play that well vs. this Mech build. The whole point of this thread is showing how hard it is to find a counter to this build. I get it I didn't execute or play great, however it doesn't mean I should be bashed continually. Here was what I was talking about with xnub Zeke. These are all quotes from him to me. "Sheth is not even trying for the last 3 games he is playing like a wood league player. He didn't need to do anything sheth was just playing like ass don't need to hars or do anything when the player you are fighting is playing like a silver league player. Ultras suck we have know this from the start of the game don't know why sheth didn't" lol I bet that if you haven't tried to use ultralisk he would have said something like : " the zerg is so bad he doesnt even use ultralisk while this is obviously the solution against mech since patch 13" Lot of terran players said that the solution against mech was to completely outmacro the terran, well I think the replays show pretty well that even in this case you don't win. | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
On June 03 2010 13:05 drewbie.root wrote: dont worry sheth, zeke is about as gosu as xnub T_T I never claimed I was good. But honestly, trying to say that you played perfectly when you most obviously didn't does not make sense. My own suckage has nothing to do with it. It turns out it was a misunderstanding on my part; I didn't see xnub's flaming posts, sorry about that. (Oh, and "you" is used as a general term, not you, drewbie  ) | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
Baneling Bust and win. Most mid-Diamond level players know the basic roadmap of how to mech but completely fail in the early game to defend themselves. Baneling Bust pretty much always wins once I see they're going fac after rax. Macro and lose. I can try different things, different strategies, different angles. It doesn't matter. I'm going to lose. At least with this strategy I can get a few replays to tighten up my build and control and possibly beat a mid-Diamond meching Terran who just facerolls his keyboard but I know facing someone of equal skill as mech I'm going to lose. It's boring and frustrating. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
The excuse I always hear after this is "well, Sen is amazing!"? So? If something can be beaten with sufficient skill, it's not imbalanced. Go play Mech for a while - seriously. You'll learn a lot about it and how to counter it. I've learned several things that make mech very, very difficult as T. I'm not a pro or anywhere near pro-level but I'm #1 in my diamond league and am already seeing Zerg players experiment with strategies that make playing Mech hell. | ||
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GodIsNotHere
Canada395 Posts
On June 03 2010 13:13 iEchoic wrote: It's hilarious to see Zerg players endlessly crying about T Mech when Sen is going from place to place rolling the living piss out of strong Mech players. The excuse I always hear after this is "well, Sen is amazing!"? So? If something can be beaten with sufficient skill, it's not imbalanced. Go play Mech for a while - seriously. You'll learn a lot about it and how to counter it. I've learned several things that make mech very, very difficult as T. I'm not a pro or anywhere near pro-level but I'm #1 in my diamond league and am already seeing Zerg players experiment with strategies that make playing Mech hell. Yeah I'm going to have to agree with you, I get the funny feeling alot of the zerg crying about how Imba Mech is are the kind that control group their whole army an just A-move it into 6-7 tanks an act surprised it doesn't go well lol | ||
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ROOTdrewbie
Canada1392 Posts
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Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
On June 03 2010 13:18 GodIsNotHere wrote: Yeah I'm going to have to agree with you, I get the funny feeling alot of the zerg crying about how Imba Mech is are the kind that control group their whole army an just A-move it into 6-7 tanks an act surprised it doesn't go well lol Wait what? I can't just A-move into tanks? Darn dood. Thanks for this heads up yo!! And iEchoic sure Sen can win a game or two vs mech, I can win a game or two vs mech. Its not that EVERY game Mech will ALWAYS win. Its just that if t doesn't make too many mistakes z will lose vs. mech. Its imbalanced, that if a zerg plays perfectly no matter what that he will lose vs. a 1 or 2 mistake terran. Its like saying Monopoly is balanced, when just cuz someone chose the thimble they get to roll an extra time every third turn. He might not win every time, but he sure has an unhealthy advantage, and if the rules don't change I'm going to try and find me a thimble to use. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On June 03 2010 13:09 Tenks wrote: Zerg versus mech is really wearing me out of playing SC2. It seems like so many of my games are versus Terran these days and they all mech. I'm faced with two choices. I can: Baneling Bust and win. Most mid-Diamond level players know the basic roadmap of how to mech but completely fail in the early game to defend themselves. Baneling Bust pretty much always wins once I see they're going fac after rax. Macro and lose. I can try different things, different strategies, different angles. It doesn't matter. I'm going to lose. At least with this strategy I can get a few replays to tighten up my build and control and possibly beat a mid-Diamond meching Terran who just facerolls his keyboard but I know facing someone of equal skill as mech I'm going to lose. It's boring and frustrating. Same here, but extend it to all match-ups. Splash damage is just far too effective vs zerg armies and ZvZ is a joke. The thing to me is that it's way too polarized Zerg basically goes from almost 0% chance to win early on, a 50%ish chance to win in the mid game then right back to 0% chance if the game goes really late because of critical mass on splash damage. | ||
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gdroxor
United States639 Posts
While I realize that this is Beta, I definitely see this trend continuing well after the game goes live. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On June 03 2010 13:20 drewbie.root wrote: you are wrong iEchoic, put sen vs qxc or me, he will lose 100% no chance, put any zerg up ok? its stupidly imba Spoiler (sen vs TLO): + Show Spoiler + Why don't you go watch the Sen vs TLO games and tell me what exactly you or qxc could do so much better? He played fantastically, and I even believe he significantly outplayed Sen in the final game where Sen pulled a tech-switch and erased ten minutes of inferior gameplay and harassment just by the virtue of the fact that mutas are incredibly difficult to counter as T mech. On June 03 2010 13:24 Sheth wrote: And iEchoic sure Sen can win a game or two vs mech, I can win a game or two vs mech. Its not that EVERY game Mech will ALWAYS win. Its just that if t doesn't make too many mistakes z will lose vs. mech. Its imbalanced, that if a zerg plays perfectly no matter what that he will lose vs. a 1 or 2 mistake terran. Its like saying this game is balanced, when just cuz someone chose the thimble in monopoly they get to roll an extra time every third turn. He might not win every time, but he sure had an unhealthy advantage, and if the rules don't change I'm going to try and find me a thimble to use. More spoiler: + Show Spoiler + Sen didn't 'win a game or two', he convincingly won a best of 5, and I don't even believe he outplayed TLO in the final game. TLO drastically outplayed him throughout the entire course of the final game and still ended up losing because Sen exploited the Mech weakness. | ||
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koppik
United States676 Posts
I think actually Check vs. Rainbow is a pretty good example of how to deal with turtling terran mech: http://v.game.sohu.com/v/5/9/70/NzA3NzA4 Check made huge mistakes against Rainbow, but he won convincingly. And Rainbow really didn't make any big mistakes. He got a sensor tower. He got thors to stop the muta harass. His money was consistently low. He got upgrades. But, Check was too on top of him. And granted, what Check did was super hard to do, but it made Rainbow look like a chump. | ||
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Mack
United States25 Posts
Will someone please set me straight about this so I can stop thinking it's a decent idea. It seems like everyone's in agreement that the problem stems from late game. Changing tank targeting AI or damage is going to bork up early-mid and we'll have gotten nowhere. Changing tank supply from 3 to 4 will have a pretty negligible effect until we start approaching the 200 cap. In the LZ v MoMaN match, MoMan was 50 supply ahead when he hit 200/200. In the QXC v Sheth LT, Sheth's maxed army of ultras and roaches couldn't even get near QXC's tanks, all while QXC had 70 supply elsewhere. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
Sen is proving it's possible to beat, the rest are proving they're not good enough. Mutas are very, very hard to deal with as Terran mech. Zerg players fall into the trap of thinking "he has Thors, my Mutas will lose against thors, therefore I am countered and cannot use my Mutas any longer". Just by making mutas against mech you instantly control the entire map, force the mech'er to stay on one base or waste money on turrets to protect 2 (protecting 3 is basically impossible), and are able to harass against slow defensive units. | ||
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Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
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ROOTdrewbie
Canada1392 Posts
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