EPTHow to fix TvZ Mech - Page 18
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
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CheezDip
126 Posts
I tested again just a few times, but I added 20 SCVs on autorepair. To defeat 3 thors + 4 turrets consistently the number went up from 23 mutas to 25-26. Not a big difference. 1 thor + 2 turrets went up from 9 to 15 mutas to counter the repairs, but how often will the thor already be surrounded by 20 scvs when you fly in? It takes time to decide if you need to pull the worker line and then actually do it. 2 thors + 2 turrets went up from 12 to 18 mutas. But again the thors were already surrounded by SCVs; in an actual base-raiding scenario, the mutas would kill the thors before the scvs even become a factor. Mutas fare better against Thors than they're given credit; they just can't be controlled in the sc1 style. | ||
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Merikh
United States918 Posts
On June 03 2010 16:36 whatthemate wrote: drewbie root you will be forgotten like many other players trying to make a name for themselves in the beta. same goes for sheth i spot many mistakes in his play. they are only arrogant just because they think have teamliquid backing them up. 2 months after release, you'll be forgotten and many of the players who didn't have access to beta will crush those who have a closed mindset(not discovering new strats) intent on swearing. You a revolutionist like flash or bisu? its like saying the old savior/bisu/insert bonjwa is better than the current Flash which is false. When you let time pass by, the younger generation undiscovered talent will arise to the top. the best players of beta will be eliminated. How about when sc1 first came out, were they the best players of all time? Nope. lol you're so narrow minded. | ||
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ROOTdrewbie
Canada1392 Posts
sorry to say it but me + the rest of root are here to stay | ||
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
On June 03 2010 16:36 whatthemate wrote: drewbie root you will be forgotten like many other players trying to make a name for themselves in the beta. same goes for sheth i spot many mistakes in his play. they are only arrogant just because they think have teamliquid backing them up. 2 months after release, you'll be forgotten and many of the players who didn't have access to beta will crush those who have a closed mindset(not discovering new strats) intent on swearing. You a revolutionist like flash or bisu? its like saying the old savior/bisu/insert bonjwa is better than the current Flash which is false. When you let time pass by, the younger generation undiscovered talent will arise to the top. the best players of beta will be eliminated. How about when sc1 first came out, were they the best players of all time? Nope. That is a shitty argument considering we are talking about how Mech is OP right NOW. If you look back at SCBW there were some things that were completely broken and OP that didn't get addressed for years. | ||
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3clipse
Canada2555 Posts
On June 03 2010 16:36 whatthemate wrote: drewbie root you will be forgotten like many other players trying to make a name for themselves in the beta. same goes for sheth i spot many mistakes in his play. they are only arrogant just because they think have teamliquid backing them up. 2 months after release, you'll be forgotten and many of the players who didn't have access to beta will crush those who have a closed mindset(not discovering new strats) intent on swearing. You a revolutionist like flash or bisu? its like saying the old savior/bisu/insert bonjwa is better than the current Flash which is false. When you let time pass by, the younger generation undiscovered talent will arise to the top. the best players of beta will be eliminated. How about when sc1 first came out, were they the best players of all time? Nope. I'm sorry, who the fuck are you again? | ||
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
On June 03 2010 16:38 CheezDip wrote: I tested again just a few times, but I added 20 SCVs on autorepair. To defeat 3 thors + 4 turrets consistently the number went up from 23 mutas to 25-26. Not a big difference. 1 thor + 2 turrets went up from 9 to 15 mutas to counter the repairs, but how often will the thor already be surrounded by 20 scvs when you fly in? It takes time to decide if you need to pull the worker line and then actually do it. 2 thors + 2 turrets went up from 12 to 18 mutas. But again the thors were already surrounded by SCVs; in an actual base-raiding scenario, the mutas would kill the thors before the scvs even become a factor. Mutas fare better against Thors than they're given credit; they just can't be controlled in the sc1 style. I didn't know that 2500/2500 of mutas beating 1300/600 worth of thor/turret was a good thing. Seems to me mutas get the right amount of credit as far as killing thors go. Which is almost none. | ||
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lu_cid
United States428 Posts
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n0ise
3452 Posts
On June 03 2010 16:11 Merikh wrote: I read "Look at Maka vs Check" lol Maka went bio three game's straight with a few tank support. "Zergs on top again" I don't think a terran went pure mech that whole tournament and the finals was ZvZ? Argument invalid much? Then people talk about Sen vs TLO lol. TLO went bio with 2 tanks and mass vikings (and a few banshee's to harass)? TLO got raped. Yeah, it's like, these guys are complete scrubs for not going mech ! Or, they actually realised that it's a huuuge investment into something immobile, and difficult to play against heavy spire-play accustomed by the usual Roach gimmicks (drops/burrows). But yeah - hellions, tanks, upgrades, vikings, ravens, missile turrets, thors - easy to get on 1-2 bases. | ||
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
On June 03 2010 16:45 lu_cid wrote: Well once the thors are dead you should be able to clean up the tanks, right? Yeah, the problem is that you need to buy literally 2x the gas value of their entire force in mutalisks to come out far enough ahead to do that lol. | ||
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lu_cid
United States428 Posts
Also I'm assuming the terran has pushed out here and doesn't have turrets.... | ||
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
On June 03 2010 16:46 lu_cid wrote: .... Yes, but then you kill much more value in tanks. The problem is getting to that "then" part... If you're going pure mutas, the Terran is going to be a little smarter in investing in more AA. Even throwing excess minerals into marines will make it THAT much harder for the mutas to even deal damage. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 03 2010 16:11 Merikh wrote: I've been following this thread since it started and I've read a lot of garbage from people trying to defend "mech" not being broken. I read "Look at Maka vs Check" lol Maka went bio three game's straight with a few tank support. "Zergs on top again" I don't think a terran went pure mech that whole tournament and the finals was ZvZ? Argument invalid much? Then people talk about Sen vs TLO lol. TLO went bio with 2 tanks and mass vikings (and a few banshee's to harass)? TLO got raped. With that said, neither of those players went pure mech. (Hellion/Tank/Thor/Viking/Raven) QXC's game was the ONLY game that showed how broken this match up was the best. LZ vs Moman was another good example. People say drop, attempt dropping with sensor towers up and vikings patrolling the air. People say nydus, I want to see how bad a terran is to reacting to nydus networks (That overlord shouldn't even get close to terran's base) Don't run into the army, how the fuck do you engage at all then? You should of had muta air control - gl getting passed a few turrets and thors (show me a replay) I'm just tired of nobody's talking about how the match up isn't broken, or it's too early to tell (might be) without ANYONE of these MFers showing their suggestions in a replay response of them doing it. Shit Drewbie (Terran player who knows this match up is broken) fucking called out everyone in this thread to 1v1 mech vs zerg and all the people defending had nothing to say. With the rage aside, imo to make a drop viable what if overlords were undetected to sensor towers when carrying units. AH! I knew haven't seen the games so I didn't know if they went mech or not. So that dissproves everyone who's been saying "sen has been raping xx terran player in a money tournament" when they didn't even go mech. This discussion is zvt imbalance for mech being too strong not everything terran does. Bio I don't see as imbalanced, Mech is. I am wondering if the players who mentioned them watched the games or just saw the results and said it to try and make it seem as if mech was balanced when they didn't even do mech... Interesting. | ||
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lu_cid
United States428 Posts
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ROOTdrewbie
Canada1392 Posts
"terran mech in the lategame once they get full upgrades and sieged up and fully 200/200 with ravens and energy for spells you CAN NOT beat it. Now the thing is there should be no unbeatable strategy there should be no point at which you have to GG without fighting because you can't win. There needs to be a way to break a strategy with good control or good macro and after Sheth wound up suiciding a combined total of almost 20k minerals and 10k gas it's clear that macro isn't the way to go." what qxc did was split the map in half and not move out once the entire game, he made like 4-5 thors and 15+ tanks and then alll viking / raven, he had 0 plans for moving out, basically just played ONLY defense, and no amount of mutas can ever break it in the late game, and as long as the terran scouts properly in the mid game, and doesnt get suprised by the muta, then the t will NEVER lose vs mutas | ||
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
Infantry was heavily favored due to more cost efficient and faster to build compared to Mech. AA was a slight issue for Terran (especially against Mutas), so they decided to give Thors the AA buff. AFTER this buff, they wanted to buff tanks because they just weren't dealing enough damage with its splash. Suddenly, we have two extremely cost efficient units that can deal with Zerg air and ground pretty well in the mid game. I think that if Blizzard were to first buff the tanks, they would've realized that the Thor AA didn't have to be so lopsided. Since people would've invested in more marines to go along with the tanks, and this would alone help deal with Mutas better. But since the Thor buff came first, we just have complete AA domination against Zerg. Blizzard needs to adjust the Thor a bit more because of that. | ||
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Hikari
1914 Posts
1) Mech is also a rather powerful option against protoss. Late game tanks+ghost with emp and cloak does a very good job nullifying immortals and colosus with tanks. 2) Tanks can probably use a very slight dps nerf in the form of: - Reduced rate of fire, this may allow certain "fast" units such as zerglings to approach a line of tanks, or - Reduced AoE radius,which increases the amount of tanks required to create a "zone of death", or - Reduced damage, same as above, and also allows high health units to approach tanks before being melted away, or - Increase dead zone radius, which require tank users to pay a lot more attention to the positioning of their tanks, or - Nerf tank range in siege mode, which will allow neural parasite to safely mind control tanks (if zerg suicide a few overlords for sight), or - Increase the time it takes for tanks to siege and unsiege and further decrease their movement speed. This will create a much bigger window of opportunity for other races to catch the tanks out of position. 3) Thors+Vikings with Point Defense Drones makes an air counter to mech next to impossible. - Perhaps nerf thor anti-air damage. - I believe PDD to be a somewhat OPed of a spell (blocking next 20 missile attacks - that is a LOT of damage). An energy nerf to PDD can fix this. HMS can be buffed in exchange to make it a more attractive option. 4) Neural Parasite range increased, or maybe allow it to be casted while burrowed (this sounds OPed) | ||
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nujgnoy
United States204 Posts
PlayXP held recent tournament where the top zergs achieved multiple kills in a team battle (Prime vs oGS) against terrans and protosses. And in world cup 3 terrans, 3 tosses, and 8 zergs advanced to 16 from the playoffs., with the top 4 being 3 zergs and 1 terran. I think if terran mech was unstoppable the top terrans would be winning tournaments frequently against zergs using that strategy. But the real result seems to be otherwise. Unless the american terrans and zergs here know starcraft2 much better than EU and Asia terrans/zergs. And I noticed that a lot of casters are not very knowledgeable on the game as their fame masks them to be. I'm not saying that the specific caster here is not a great player, but I have noticed a lot of bad game analysis in the matchups that I'm familiar with. For example, a while ago, a caster was rooting on mass thors against smaller number of battlecruisers. And the caster was very surprised that bcs could take on thors. When thors do 6x4 damage to bcs. With say 3 armor on the bc that's 12 damage a shot to bcs. Even with full upgrades on the thor that's 24 damage against 3 armor on a 500 hp unit that can be repaired. Personally, I've had games where ultralinghydraroach with infestors was able to break 10+ siege tank lines in long macro games. But in a lot of 2v2s I play a lot of zergs go pure hydraroach and 1a which melt to tanks. | ||
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Merikh
United States918 Posts
On June 03 2010 16:57 cHaNg-sTa wrote: I think the problem falls into the line of how Blizzard patched Terran over the weeks. Infantry was heavily favored due to more cost efficient and faster to build compared to Mech. AA was a slight issue for Terran (especially against Mutas), so they decided to give Thors the AA buff. AFTER this buff, they wanted to buff tanks because they just weren't dealing enough damage with its splash. Suddenly, we have two extremely cost efficient units that can deal with Zerg air and ground pretty well in the mid game. I think that if Blizzard were to first buff the tanks, they would've realized that the Thor AA didn't have to be so lopsided. Since people would've invested in more marines to go along with the tanks, and this would alone help deal with Mutas better. But since the Thor buff came first, we just have complete AA domination against Zerg. Blizzard needs to adjust the Thor a bit more because of that. I'd like to state they didn't buff tanks, they fixed the way splash damage worked for all splash dealing units. That change made tanks stronger. (Guess you could say that's a buff :D) Splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage. http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23094049316&sid=5000&pageNo=1#12 But in a lot of 2v2s I play a lot of zergs go pure hydraroach and 1a which melt to tanks. lmao ^ | ||
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lew
Belgium205 Posts
Do we want the ball vs ball back? | ||
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