On June 03 2010 17:06 lew wrote: First people complain about terran going always bio. Terrans search for something else, and now people whine about it. EVERY single replay I saw where the Z lost vs a mech T, the Z just 1a'ed his army into the siegetank line from T, EVERYTIME. If mech is so powerfull, why don't we see the terrans dominate in tourneys?
Do we want the ball vs ball back?
actually know what not worth the time if a mod would please delete this post I am done discussing this as there is no point anymore.
Ok, it seems like the whole thing about Terran mech is currently not different from other Beta stages, where people nearly instantly scream for nerf after some new strategy, or playstyle that has success appeared.
This is probably the reason, why Blizzard makes so many unnecesary balance changes back and forth to units and their stats. Its because it takes time to adapt. The metagame changed like 100x times during beta.
I really think the right path here is to try to think, play, adjust. Lets give it some time. Lets find constructive disscussion. Its wrong to just see 3-4 replays and then spend the rest of the day on forums spamming "Nerf mech, see? This replay prooves its imba, this one also"..
I remember a pretty long period, where Terrans were really screwd against those 4 gate all-ins, immortal pushes, etc.. This is no different.
Im open to see its hard for Zerg to beat lategame Mech. Also I might say its a bit imbalanced, but lets wait what the top Zergs after release can really do and than you can say, well.. Its not good, lets fix that. This is the only way to properly balance a game complex like Starcraft 2..
Also I think there is way more oppinions on this based on who plays what race.
On June 03 2010 16:57 cHaNg-sTa wrote: I think the problem falls into the line of how Blizzard patched Terran over the weeks.
Infantry was heavily favored due to more cost efficient and faster to build compared to Mech.
AA was a slight issue for Terran (especially against Mutas), so they decided to give Thors the AA buff.
AFTER this buff, they wanted to buff tanks because they just weren't dealing enough damage with its splash.
Suddenly, we have two extremely cost efficient units that can deal with Zerg air and ground pretty well in the mid game. I think that if Blizzard were to first buff the tanks, they would've realized that the Thor AA didn't have to be so lopsided. Since people would've invested in more marines to go along with the tanks, and this would alone help deal with Mutas better. But since the Thor buff came first, we just have complete AA domination against Zerg. Blizzard needs to adjust the Thor a bit more because of that.
I'd like to state they didn't buff tanks, they fixed the way splash damage worked for all splash dealing units. That change made tanks stronger. (Guess you could say that's a buff :D)
Splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.
But in a lot of 2v2s I play a lot of zergs go pure hydraroach and 1a which melt to tanks.
lmao ^
I don't know what you mean by lmao but the truth is it doesn't matter what race you are, if you 1a anything you will lose to a competent player. Terran can 1a into P, P can 1a into Z, and Z can 1a into P, and in all cases the 1a-er will not be able to come out with a decent opponent
On June 03 2010 16:57 cHaNg-sTa wrote: I think the problem falls into the line of how Blizzard patched Terran over the weeks.
Infantry was heavily favored due to more cost efficient and faster to build compared to Mech.
AA was a slight issue for Terran (especially against Mutas), so they decided to give Thors the AA buff.
AFTER this buff, they wanted to buff tanks because they just weren't dealing enough damage with its splash.
Suddenly, we have two extremely cost efficient units that can deal with Zerg air and ground pretty well in the mid game. I think that if Blizzard were to first buff the tanks, they would've realized that the Thor AA didn't have to be so lopsided. Since people would've invested in more marines to go along with the tanks, and this would alone help deal with Mutas better. But since the Thor buff came first, we just have complete AA domination against Zerg. Blizzard needs to adjust the Thor a bit more because of that.
I'd like to state they didn't buff tanks, they fixed the way splash damage worked for all splash dealing units. That change made tanks stronger. (Guess you could say that's a buff :D)
Splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.
But in a lot of 2v2s I play a lot of zergs go pure hydraroach and 1a which melt to tanks.
lmao ^
I don't know what you mean by lmao but the truth is it doesn't matter what race you are, if you 1a anything you will lose to a competent player. Terran can 1a into P, P can 1a into Z, and Z can 1a into P, and in all cases the 1a-er will not be able to come out with a decent opponent
On June 03 2010 17:06 lew wrote: First people complain about terran going always bio. Terrans search for something else, and now people whine about it. EVERY single replay I saw where the Z lost vs a mech T, the Z just 1a'ed his army into the siegetank line from T, EVERYTIME. If mech is so powerfull, why don't we see the terrans dominate in tourneys?
Do we want the ball vs ball back?
actually know what not worth the time if a mod would please delete this post I am done discussing this as there is no point anymore.
Well, if his post is worthless, then proove it by posting a replay of a zerg losing to mech and not 1a'ing his army into the siegetank line. I'm 100% sure you can't.
On June 03 2010 17:06 lew wrote: First people complain about terran going always bio. Terrans search for something else, and now people whine about it. EVERY single replay I saw where the Z lost vs a mech T, the Z just 1a'ed his army into the siegetank line from T, EVERYTIME. If mech is so powerfull, why don't we see the terrans dominate in tourneys?
Do we want the ball vs ball back?
actually know what not worth the time if a mod would please delete this post I am done discussing this as there is no point anymore.
Well, if his post is worthless, then proove it by posting a replay of a zerg losing to mech and not 1a'ing his army into the siegetank line. I'm 100% sure you can't.
If you weren't a terran player I might take you seriously. Don't know why you quoted my post though when all I said was I am done debating it :D.
The answer here doesn't lie in the mutalisk. The mutalisk has always been intended as a harrassment unit.
I mentioned earlier that Blizzard clearly wants the ultralisk to be the anti mech/marauder unit in conjunction with the infestor and speedling, similar to defilers and ultraling.
In the two games presented, neither take advantage of large numbers of 3/5 frenzied ultralisks backed up with plenty of speedlings and some well placed neural parasites. The Sheth vs Qxc game offered plenty of time and resources to try this.
I don't expect Blizzard will make any changes to mech until people try variations of this in high level play.
(note, I'm talking about a 200/200 army with 10+ ultralisks with ling and infestor support)
why do you insist on quoting the replay between sheth and qxc? drewbie? its just like saying how unfair in sc1 where maxed out 200/200 protoss with archons steam rolls zerg.
that replay shows nothing to prove anything. just as you said sheth was not playing on a daily basis. just watch the replay to see how afk and idle the larvae were? look at 5-6 minute mark. the problem with sheth is that he never changes his builds. he makes roach warren and too many zerglings and a spine crawler. just watch kasperskycup finals match game 6 sen vs tlo, sen lost because he done the exact same build, the greedy econ build, where you make 2 roaches and rest zerglings. this was countered by hellion. roaches ended up killing nothing, because hellions ran away. 2 roaches idle hurts zerg econ more than 2 idle helions because terran is gonan need it anyway.
Did you know reactored hellion build that qxc does with a fast expand(unsafe expand making CC like that and exposed), is completely countered by a super fast speedling all in? the natural CC can be taken out using mass banelings strat as demonstrated by high level korean zerg. a risky build but always works if you manage to surround hellions with speedlings(kill about 2 at least you win).
basically you get enough banelings to take out 2 bunkers+ CC. that's like 20 banelings. after that you get hydras you win.
what a joke
drewbie bm and top player? plenty of other guys out there that are better.
I'm gonna say that Raven's are the root of the problem in late game zvt.
PDD literally nullifies every weapon in the zerg arsenal. WTF. 15 vikings wouldn't be so bad... Broodlords pop if you're not careful with them, but at least corruptors and FG will make dancing vikings seem vulnerable.
Again... What makes the terran mech ball invincible in the later game is the raven. It's PDD. I've even tried gathering ovies in the middle, dumping creep, making tumours and SLOW pushing with 15+ spore crawlers towards the terran's base. But when they have 4-7~ Raven's backed up by thors and marines, nothing in the air will survive or deal any damage.
I don't like to weigh in on "broken" arguments because I don't think, honestly, 99% of people are even qualified to make the statement that a certain race is broken. I am a hypocrite, however, so I'll weigh in...
I believe that, in a TvZ game, if the T plays borderline-perfect (no obvious mistakes), it is impossible for the Zerg to win. If a T plays a good game, he is slowly expanding with tanks/turrets, has thors, and has depots built around his main to prevent a nydus. Sensor towers prevent a drop. It doesn't matter if the Z out-bases you initially, because he can't ever attack or harass you.
As I said, I hate using myself as a personal example because my play is far from perfect, but I'll use one game of mine...
I'm playing a very solid T named Trump. His play is far from perfect, as is mine, but I think that, assuming the T doesn't make any stupid mistakes, every TvZ pure-mech game will reach the point where I'm at at ~ the 25 minute mark. He has his half of the map covered in sensor tower/turret/thor/siege, with a fleet of ~12 vikings flying around. I have some broodlords, infestors, hydras, corruptors and roaches, but there's nothing I can do.
I finally figured out (too late, unfortunately), that the only way Z can break this kind of mech is to suicide their ground army and build pure air. Pray he doesn't have too many thors, and you may be able to do it.
Honestly, to fix ZvT, I think it would be really neat if the supply cap on the game were either lifted to 400 or removed completely. It would punish the Z for sitting in his base all day, and reward the Z for taking so many expos while the T just turtles.
If anyone has any suggestions for how to win earlier than when I finally suicided my ground army and converted to air, let me know.
People wanting Dark swarm back are either toally lost or havent played the game.
With dark swarm terran would instantly loose to banelings! There wouldnt even be a chance...
Not to even mention that Terran doesnt have melee units...
But I believe something should be done. Against Zerg tanks are too good (only BL can save them). But against protoss this isnt the case. So it probably need to be some kind of buff for zerg that doesnt affect pvz to much.
On June 03 2010 17:31 rtano wrote: People wanting Dark swarm back are either toally lost or havent played the game.
With dark swarm terran would instantly loose to banelings! There wouldnt even be a chance...
Not to even mention that Terran doesnt have melee units...
But I believe something should be done. Against Zerg tanks are too good (only BL can save them). But against protoss this isnt the case. So it probably need to be some kind of buff for zerg that doesnt affect pvz to much.
You're pages behind :D hehe
I had a suggestion that was overlooked though. Hive tech upgrade that allows overlords carrying units invisible to sensor towers (overlords doing nothing act as normal units moving across the map) gives zerg the ability to overwhelm the terrans immobility and actually "can" use nydus/doom drops versus T. Give's zergs back the chance to just outplay terran players.
Okay moving on, terran mech in the lategame once they get full upgrades and sieged up and fully 200/200 with ravens and energy for spells you CAN NOT beat it.
Mech is extremely vulnerable to a solid ground army + infestors before a tank ball is amassed. Even though Maka has done a Rax-Expand, and both bases are running, the zerg was able to equalize the game with infestor+roach attack.
The zerg did lose the game, but this doesn't apply to mech because 1. Zerg got mutalisks and no corrupters, which means that thors will rape the only AA support the blords will have 2. The final unit composition for Maka was NOT mech, he had thor+marine+viking. His midgame tank-centered army was wiped out clean by mutalisks and broodlords.
On June 03 2010 16:44 Wr3k wrote: I didn't know that 2500/2500 of mutas beating 1300/600 worth of thor/turret was a good thing. Seems to me mutas get the right amount of credit as far as killing thors go. Which is almost none.
Zerg generally have more resources to work with than the other races, but while you can put a price on the units themselves as if you were making a trade, can you put a price on the tactical advantage of high-speed flyers that can rapidly strike anywhere on the map, hit both ground and air, and force your opponent to divide his army to deal with the threat in his base? Terran mech is very slow-moving on account of the thors, siege tanks, and ravens. This is where zerg has two advantages against mech: a versatile, fast-moving unit (Muta), and the ability to rapidly swap army compositions to counter your opponent's current lineup.
A combination of Mutas and Corruptors are superior to vikings; the fear of engagement comes from fighting them alongside the Thors and Ravens. We must remember that Thors are incredibly slow units. A hit on a base, whether it be a main or an expo, and taking out the defensive thor(s) and turrets (I provided the minimum numbers for a kill, now you just need to overkill it), gives the highly-mobile Mutas free reign to do as much damage to economy and production as possible, and unlike an ovie drop or Nydus harass, the Mutas have a good chance of escaping before reinforcements arrive. For what reinforcements do we need to be on the lookout with a mech build? It will be Vikings first since they're the fastest, and your air force could(should) be able to deal some fair damage to them before fleeing when the Ravens arrive, followed by any Thors that are pulled from the front lines or other expos. Now the siege tanks and expos are much more vulnerable to an air attack--use the advantage. The more air harass, the more anti-air the Terran needs, and the less tanks he'll be producing, which may yield a more favorable battle. The irrational fear of Thors is what's holding back much of the muta vs mech play. Just don't control them like you're playing SC1 and they'll do way better against thors than zerg ground does against mass tanks.
The answer here doesn't lie in the mutalisk. The mutalisk has always been intended as a harrassment unit.
Indeed it is a harassment unit, but harassment is not limited to poking a few workers and then giving up when you see turrets and thors. Anything that forces your opponent to divide his forces to deal with you is harassment and a major advantage for you.
I'm fine with bringing back overkill for siege tanks, I'm sad to see all the push breaking mechanics gone.
However, I'd then want siege tanks to cost 150/100 and 2 supply instead of 150/125 and 3 supply, and I'd like to get tank micro back too (see the video in the project micro thread).
EPT
