On June 03 2010 20:04 TheLittleOne wrote: I am breaking a leg for the few people saying that mech is infact not overpowered at all. You can count me as T and Z. Because i play TvZ but, when faced with a Terran I started playing alot Zerg again now. And I feel like I only have problems against mech if I really screw up or when facing a very hard opponent.
I will accept any challenge by a Top Terran player saying mech is too strong. Lets do some games and I will try to change your mind.
Question vs mech do you play long macro games or go for timing attacks? This thread was intended to be about the fact that vs mech you can't macro you have to break the terran earlier and for many of the macro players like Sheth or Idra this means they are forced to play out of their chosen playstyle. Forcing the zerg player into one strategy of trying to break a timing window is not an acceptable level of balance because it means the terran player knows its coming and are frequently able to abuse defensiveness. In the Steppes game qxc left half his tanks at home and Sheth still could not kill his tanks with that many vikings and ravens on the field it was nearly impossible for him to get any air especially with excellent sensor tower usage and the slow speed of broodlords.
As it stands right now TvZ with mech the zerg has to play 100% no mistakes while the terran is able to make many many man small to medium mistakes and still win in many instances. This does not sit right with me as balanced at all.
spoilered to make the post less huge.
wouldnt you call altitude gameone idra vs tlo a macro victory?
Where he won with mass corruptor vs vikings? The lack of ravens abusing PDD is the reason why he lost his viking force. PDD means if the zerg fights there they lose and since it's up to the zerg to break the terran at that point many times the terran can force fights or even just with a mass of ravens cast PDD every time they engage. With the slow firing rate of corruptors PDD performs amazingly well as well as HSM if they do not move in clsoe to the vikings allowing for more shots.
Theres a reason why you won't find top level zerg games where they went mass corruptor vs viking raven they already know it won't work because of PDD.
isnt that a bit deep into the theorycrafting assuming you have the huge gas and more starports suddenly for the ravens? also if we go heavy theorycraft isnt the danger always there of NP on the ravens which would spell like instant gg? and wouldnt such heavy air comittmend(viking+ raven soaks up like ALL gas) result in beeing super vulnerable to a simple "50 larva roachling go!" switch? not to mention that it can mainly only be used in defensive situations in air battles since you can force and run from fights so easy?
and wasnt idra already way way ahead when most of the viking/corrupter stuff was going on? with like 60 larva stockpiled and 2k/2k in the bank?
as said i dont super disagree with anything.and i agree that Z needs better control lategame. i just think that people are jumping the gun here way too fast.would be a great thread if it was for discussion how to beat it. i jsut dont agree with making a "THIS IS BORKEN! NERF NOW!" thread already.
I did not read all the posts, but I had a game where I outlasted 2 terrans (my partner died/dropped) because they were so immobile they had no chance at taking any expos against my replenishing mutalisks/zerglings.
On June 03 2010 20:28 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: In the Steppes game
Using Steppes of War to show TvZ is imba is like using Neo Requiem or Battle Royale in Broodwar to show something is imba.
Morrow, I think they removed Incineration Zone from mappool already.
So you're going to completely ignore the fact that sheth with his full army couldn't take qxc who left half his tanks in his base? This shouldnt be the case no matter the map, qxc had a better economy in the steppes game than he did in lost temple and defended repeated maxed armies while there were consistantly a full group++ of tanks sitting idle in his base with the armies of Sheth barely able to kill even a tank in most of the engagements trading an entire army for that one tank. Wow gj bro doesn't matter what map we're talking about qxc was in a position where no matter where sheth attacked he had it covered cuz he had a mobile airforce covered with sensor towers and tanks in prime positions locking down all the ground choke points. IF sheth went air he's raped by viking/raven abuse + sensor tower. If he goes ground tanks tear him apart doesn't matter what map this is qxc played the map but it was the same story on LT as well. Once it gets to that point what can he do? It was clear he didn't have an answer by both games seeing as he even asked after game 5.
Oh No Flash went 14CC, and Jaedong couldn't bust 1 tank, a wall and 2 bunkers with 20 hydras, Tanks are imbalanced, SCVs are imbalanced, also marines and walls. Let's remove everything from the game.
Oh wait.
Also very convenient of you to ignore the fact that sheth had terrible army composition, did not use lings to soak up damage and decided to play no rush 20 against a TERRAN, letting T take 3 UNCONTESTED BASES. Also the fact that there was pretty much NO airforce for the first 15 minutes of the game.
Most of the players listed here are from the root clan and have regular contact with each other, meaning their discussions could be biased.
That's basically your interpretation on what zerg is allowed to do. That's not your game you prolly won't understand why Qxc believed he deserved to win. Have you asked him if he ever lost to a zerg? You're saying map doesn't matter - which clearly it does.
Terran players who think that's its powerful in the above list need to substantiate their arguments. TLO has already offered to challenge.
Zerg players want to dictate how the game is meant to be played- No Rush 20 minutes therefore if I play macro game I should always win. This is basically how all zerg players want it. They want to be defensive macro instead of constant aggression. once again Artosis also needs to substantiate his point by providing high quality replays of where he was overwhelmed by perfect mech play instead of theorycrafting and raging over his losses on the asian server.
On June 03 2010 20:04 TheLittleOne wrote: I am breaking a leg for the few people saying that mech is infact not overpowered at all. You can count me as T and Z. Because i play TvZ but, when faced with a Terran I started playing alot Zerg again now. And I feel like I only have problems against mech if I really screw up or when facing a very hard opponent.
I will accept any challenge by a Top Terran player saying mech is too strong. Lets do some games and I will try to change your mind.
Would you mind to elaborate? How can a zerg player screw up, or, better: how not to screw up? How do you beat mech?
I would be very interested to read the response aswell, and if this is something I can be able to do even as a casual player against a Terran of equal skill and APM.
Actually, I would love to see the challenge being accepted by several players (and I don't doubt that TLO would be able to show us how its done).
We could call it "TLO's how-to-beat-mech Showmatches" where TLO plays against a series of top-level Terran-players. It would all be done in one livestream and casted by Day9.
On June 03 2010 20:35 MorroW wrote: i think the +10 hp boost on siege tanks was really uncalled for but in general i think ppl r overreacting to the power of mech. the odds in a game of tvz r pretty even now while 3 patches ago or so it was ridiculously much in favor of zerg. maps like stepps of war will always favor terran heavily because that map is designed so much for the terran race, it got nothing to do with game balance as long as they use maps like stepps of war or incinitration zone in the map pool
This. I wonder why you are listed as in favour of the imba cries.
Maps right now take away the disadvantage terran mech has, the immobility. Most of them are small and that makes easy for the terran mech ball to be everywhere. The thing is Thors are good (and maybe their range is bigger than it should be) but mutas still beat the crap out of a terran tank push and you can harass. In SC1 would you let a terran get 200/200 and wait for him to move? That seems to be the criteria for this post. Only games where the zerg lets T get full supply count for discussion. Dont you think that if you let the terran get there then you either should have a 200 army already and a ton of extra larva for really fast reinforcements or be smarter to win? If you think about zerg their army shoulnt fight an even supply battle in most cases, isnt their purpose to overwhelm the enemy with bigger numbers? So arguing that a max supply game favours a race that is supposed to win in those conditions isnt a bit the wrong thing to do?
Also most zergs should take a closer look at mutas! They hurt so much when well microed and kept away from thors
Just my opinion. I've played both P and T in beta and my biggest problems were always against zergs that did more than just roaches or hydras
Question vs mech do you play long macro games or go for timing attacks? This thread was intended to be about the fact that vs mech you can't macro you have to break the terran earlier and for many of the macro players like Sheth or Idra this means they are forced to play out of their chosen playstyle.
I usually go for long macro oriented games, I start with ling infestor try to grab a third base and then tech up to ultralisks who do SO much damage against mech. also drop upgrade for overlords is essential.
its basicly like in broodwar. Stall time with ling + defiler. So you can get your ultras out and then you will be fine.
Question vs mech do you play long macro games or go for timing attacks? This thread was intended to be about the fact that vs mech you can't macro you have to break the terran earlier and for many of the macro players like Sheth or Idra this means they are forced to play out of their chosen playstyle.
I usually go for long macro oriented games, I start with ling infestor try to grab a third base and then tech up to ultralisks who do SO much damage against mech. also drop upgrade for overlords is essential.
its basicly like in broodwar. Stall time with ling + defiler. So you can get your ultras out and then you will be fine.
Interesting. So your basically saying that Blizzard fixed Ultras with patch 14, and that they are the counter to mech?
I've been thinking about this matchup and I would like to ask you what you think about Missile Turrets. I believe that along with Siege Tanks and Thors these are one of the reasons Terran is so strong.
Ok, so Tanks are immobile and Thors are slow, but it is the missile turrets that cause the Terran to turtle so well. A mobile mutalisk army, or some drops might try to outmaneuver the Thors, but harrassment is completely shut down the moment terran builds 5-6 missile turrents around his base.
It seems to me that these strong anti-air defenses actually make the terran feel safe about pushing. Thors rape mutalisks, but any chance a good maneuvering Zerg might have is negated by the fact that Missile Turrets are so deadly.
Building only a couple in the mineral line simply means the terran can park their thors outside their natural and relax while the turrets keep him harrass free. A small number of mutalisks is completely ineffective against 2-3 Turrets and only if you push for more you might have a shot of taking them down. Not to mention they can be upgraded with extra range and armor.
So only if you commit to harrassing with multiple mutas will the Thors be needed to go back into the main. Harrassment is denied in this case as well because the Turrets buy sufficient time for the Thors to get back.
Same goes for Overlord drops. 1 Turrent can kill more than 1 overlord until the drops are done.
TL;DR: Missile Turrets are too strong against Mutalisks
I'm very curious how TLO would play against a defensive mech build, like the one QXC was using against Sheth. Might shed a lot of insight and new perspectives on the discussion.
This sounds like something that should at least be tried. I'm not sure it would even be enough though. I think that to really make a difference they'd also have to reduce the firerate on the tanks.
On June 03 2010 11:06 Wayra wrote: I think tanks are underpowered, they should have an alternate fire mode that shoots bullets for close range and air like in halo. They should make missile turrets also attack ground and have +3 armor so Terrans can more easily defend against mutas. In addition give ghost a special ability like...nerve gas that kills any biological unit in range, kinda like the emp except for zergs. In addition have vikings be able to plant aerial mines, that work as spider mines but only affect air units. Oh and have the nuclear bombs dropped by banshees and increase the radius and power of nuclear bombs so that it 1 hit any biological unit. Because common, radiation should be lethal to all biological units...in addition, make nuclear craters radioactive for 273 sec. Meanwhile, no creep can grow on it.
I also think that helions are too week, infernal lighter should come already upgraded. Biological units that get hit are on fire. While on fire, it cannot attack. Units on fire slowly dies. In addition, units that are on fire can spread the flames to adjacent units and structures. I think that will add an interesting aspect to the micro for zergs. Have the helions a larger spread or least attack faster. But that would make it slightly imba, so maybe scratch the last idea. Instead have helions fire do extra dmg buildings. I mean it makes sense cause fire should destroy buildings.
Oh and protoss voidrays are wayyyy too imbalanced, have it's range nerf to 2, and make it slower than the viking by .2112
IMO top zergs will eventually adapt and this doesn't really call for a terran nerf or zerg buff. TLO claims he can handle mech and is offering matches against top terrans. Koreans don't really seem to have trouble as well. Also remember how big a role maps play.
I'm sure everyone remembers this, and how there were threads about how mech was imbalanced on other maps as well. There was also a thread on TvZ stats with the winrate at 65% for a few months. Then zergs realized how to play against it and mech play almost completely disappeared.
The winrate for terrans isn't even as high for this situation. Where are these imbalanced terran users who should be winning tournaments? On top of that, it took broodwar players months before mech started getting raped silly and terrans stopped doing it every game.
How long has full mech in sc2 been around? A whole..... month? Not even.
the biggest problem with mech in my opinion is that it is nearly impossible to harass it or to throw it off balanced. A good anti-air force can be implemented in a very strong ground army, the fact is that some unitcompositions are able to annihilate a 200/200 zerg ground army OR a 200/200 air army in the same time. At least it seemed to me, i never actually went for 200.200 air cuz it s really hard to pull that off, but i lost battles when my army was heavily air and better upgraded, at least half of his force were tanks and still lost easely to the vikings-thors (possibly marines too)
In BW i loved playing against mech from the very first day it appeared on iccup, the had to defend and to aim for a good timing and close to perfect composition when moving out (it had to move out sooner or later). Now a terran player can win the game without ever atacking a single time just confortably take expos and strenghten his position to a point where it could rape 2 or 3 200/200 armies one after the other.
Why do ppl automatically blame everything on the Balance?
I'm sure if ppl would play Z VS Terran-Mech in SCBW the way they do it in SC2, they'd say it's totally freakin' IMBA too, because you can't really win just encountering the Terran in big Army-VS-Army-Battles - that's just not how it works.
As soon as you see Zerg using strong timing-attacks, great macro, Drops, Nydus-Worms, Speedling-Counterattacks, Burrow etc., Zerg definitely has a fair chance against Terran-Mech, but Zerg just seem to think that they can win in straight-up battles.
Try winning against Mech in SCBW when they have lots of Tanks+Goliaths and Mines all over the place - it's the exact same Problem as in SC2 and it can be resolved by using the same strategies as in SCBW:
- Good defense against Hellions (same as Vultures in SCBW) early on. - Heavily Macroing at the right time, which is even stronger in SC2 as in SCBW. - Counterattacking, Drops and generally abusing Zerg movement-speed and the slow Terran Mech Army. - Having the right Air and Ground Unit-composition to throw off Terrans that have too many Tanks and too less Anti-Ait or vice-versa.
I don't see why ppl even care about balance this early in the game - they should adress important stuff, like gamemechanics, B.Net.2.0 etc. I'm 100% sure ppl will find strategies to defeat Terran Mech even without further Balance-changes, so why is everyone whining? Let thousands of ppl play thousands of games and come up with different strategies first, before blaming everything on balance.
That's IMHO a pretty short-sighted and even arrogant approach, as if you ppl already know how the game should and can be played. Well, guess what - we're all still noobies in SC2...
*Edit: Besides, it's all about the Maps now. tiny little Maps are good for Mech and that's basically every Map in SC2 so far... Think about how freaking IMBA Zerg will be in larger Maps, with stuff like Nydus-Worm, incredibly fast armies, incredibly strong Drops and easier time to macro up...
On June 03 2010 21:42 De4ngus wrote: IMO top zergs will eventually adapt and this doesn't really call for a terran nerf or zerg buff. TLO claims he can handle mech and is offering matches against top terrans. Koreans don't really seem to have trouble as well. Also remember how big a role maps play.
Where do you get that koreans aren't having trouble. Aren't IdrA and Artosis at the top of the asian server? IdrA was like #4 or 5 pre-patch...
I want TLO versus a lineup of the best mech players. I will never say imba again if somebody shows me play that actually works. Lz vs. Moman is the most depressing thing I've seen, and I'm starting to wonder here.
Moman abused mobility. No, let me take that back. Be bent mobility over and had his way with it the whole game. Lz moved tanks right on top of a group of roaches without detection. He lost two expansion at a key point in the game. I mean, againt any other matchup, how did Moman not do enough to win? If protoss suffered losses like that against zerg, they would have already gg'ed. And what makes it even worse, Lz basically says after the game that Moman lost because he didn't try to base trade at the end. What? A zerg can dominate the entire midgame and the only way to have a chance at victory is base trade? I just don't get.
EPT
