I feel like the biggest problem around mech balance right now revolves around the Thor. Think about some of the unit interactions in Brood War - Like the Thor, Terran had access to effective splash damage, this being Irradiate and Valkyries, which served the same purpose as a stone wall to Mutalisks; once they were in play, investing further in mutas was basically throwing away resources. Now think about where in the tech tree these things show up:

Irradiate: Factory + Starport + Addon + Science Facility
Valk: Factory + Starport + Addon + Armory
Thor: Factory + Tech lab + Armory

Why is that important? A few reasons. Investing in Vessels and/or Valkyries not only took a good deal more time and resources, but having them would seriously detract from the actual strength of the mech push in Broodwar. So the general trend, if the zerg went for air, was to get Goliaths instead. Goliaths were certainly good against Mutalisks, but they didn't totally negate their presence - they could remain in play as a limiter to the Terran, if his tank count was too high, he would be punished for it. Likewise, if the Goliath count was too high, the typical zerg hydra army would be stronger against it. It was a fine dynamic, and it made for relatively balanced games.

Going back to Starcraft II, not only does the Thor come out early - but it hugely reinforces the ground strength of the mech push while negating air. Once you have one or two with a few SCVs to repair, going for lair air is no longer viable, and Terran can happily commit to tank heavy builds without worry. Right now, there's no risk involving in getting Thors. If the zerg isn't investing in air, you still have a unit with huge hitpoints and ground attack. Tanks are good against Zerg ground, and that's always been the case, and it probably won't change, and air should remain a viable option for dealing with it - at least earlier on in the game. Really, the easiest way to fix this without butchering the unit is moving the Thor up in the tech tree.

Is mech as bad as people claim it is right now? Probably not. Before Hive, its lopsidedly strong against more or less anything Zerg can do. Once (if) Zerg gets to hive tech, accompanied with roaches/drop, a lot of options open up as far as dealing with it, and it can play on a lot more even ground with Terran. Broodlords/Corrupter/Roach works fine against typical Mech play; and requires a heavy commitment to vikings to deal with. But really, the game is still developing, and Terran just seems a lot more 'finished' in terms of the options tech tree in comparison to Zerg right now.

ZenDeX

Philippines2916 Posts

June 03 2010 13:25 GMT

#423

On June 03 2010 22:20 UnderTowed wrote:
I still think Roach+Hydra+Infest works fine...

How?

Last time I checked, Terran mech still steamrolls through any Zerg army despite the latest changes. Doing a counter-attack doesn't work since Terran will just continue the steamroll.

Tenks

United States3104 Posts

June 03 2010 13:28 GMT

#424

I really think the root of the issue is Terrans can too easily make themselves muta-proof. Turrets got their buff to do an asinine amount of damage to the mutalisk then Thors got their buff to do an asinine amount of damage to mutalisk with splash. I think if thors got their splash removed this entire issue would resolve itself. That way you could easily move your mutas in overtop his tank line to pick them off to lower the 'critical mass' then move in with your ground army. The way it stands right now you can pick off MAYBE two tanks, probably more like one when there are 3-4 thors standing around.

Grant you, Terran will start to turret up near their siege tanks after the change. I'm fine with that. That is completely immobile. You can't move a turret. You can medivac a Thor and have him be all places at once.

green.at

Austria1459 Posts

June 03 2010 13:30 GMT

#425

Day[9] Daily #130 - Day[9] vs Jinro

Lets see what happens there! i hope a good example of not whining but working!

lolastic

23 Posts

June 03 2010 13:32 GMT

#426

im sure if this was sc bw beta idra would say tvp is broken, carriers are imba (useful talent toi have) and need nerf

HalfAmazing

Netherlands402 Posts

June 03 2010 13:40 GMT

#427

Sigh. Mech is not broken vs Zerg. It's the exact same situation as in Brood War, where a heavily fortified Terran base is impossible for Zerg to break. LUCKILY FOR ZERG THEY HAVE MAP CONTROL FOR AN HOUR BEFORE TERRAN CAN MOVE OUT, LOL. Zerg can literally take every exp on the map without fear. Terran, despite this perceived imbalance, is STILL not doing as well as either Zerg or Protoss, and the best you can come up with is "there are no good Terran players". These examples of mech imbalance are just terrible. Zergs not powering hard enough, throwing inferior armies at Terran from bad angles, not tech switching frequently enough, etc. Take the map and force Terran to move out before he's comfortable! Then punish him. It's not rocket science. Sen and plenty of others can do it. Why can't you? For every "mech is imbalanced" replay (where apparently MoMaN qualifies as a top player to be used as an example) I can easily provide 15 where Terran mech simply gets crushed by solid Zerg play. Nobody even seems to realize that Terran can't attack Zerg either in these games, because if T is not perfectly positioned they will lose. Idiots throwing shit at T for an hour is evidence of imbalance? Get real.

comis

United States333 Posts

June 03 2010 13:42 GMT

#428

It really hurts me hearing all the T players saying "of course tanks melt all ground units, USE AIR!" Clearly that's the case, but does that make it right? Who decided T should be absolutely unbeatable on the ground? They weren't unbeatable on the ground in BW and they had tanks then.

Diamond

United States10796 Posts

June 03 2010 13:42 GMT

#429

On June 03 2010 20:04 TheLittleOne wrote:
I will accept any challenge by a Top Terran player saying mech is too strong. Lets do some games and I will try to change your mind.

Let's make it happen. iCCup TV presents: The Little One vs. Mech??

Butcherski

Poland446 Posts

June 03 2010 13:56 GMT

#430

On June 03 2010 22:42 iCCup.Diamond wrote:

Show nested quote +

Let's make it happen. iCCup TV presents: The Little One vs. Mech??

I really hope you guys will make it happen, not much time left

Adeeler

United Kingdom764 Posts

June 03 2010 13:57 GMT

#431

I've been thinking a huge amount, and why not just give Infestors any of the below:
Infestors
+50hp
faster energy regen or consume
smaller energy requirements for spells / higher starting energy
cheaper gas cost 125gas or 100gas
faster infestation pit build time
faster upgrade times/merge upgrades

This could make the TLO ling/infestor delay the push out to secure your own 3rd much more accessible for all of us that aren't TLO. Then as we all have it as a solid strategy against mech and things evolve the price/buffs to infestor could be tweaked out if needed.

Or faster lair upgrade time/faster spire build time. Or even more crazy nerfed hp ultra to tier 2 and upgrades on tier 3 for hp/armour.
Queens using energy to speed up buildings could be so cool too.

Maynard

United States889 Posts

June 03 2010 14:04 GMT

#432

Diamond

United States10796 Posts

June 03 2010 14:06 GMT

#433

On June 03 2010 22:56 Butcherski wrote:

Show nested quote +

I really hope you guys will make it happen, not much time left

It's up to TLO. I'm not afraid and I KNOW I could find good opponents for him. The ball is in TLO's court now

Hider

Denmark9377 Posts

June 03 2010 14:08 GMT

#434

Has anybody tried using ultra with frenzy in patch 14? According to blizzard this should be the the counter to terran mech. I guess if ultrras stil suck bad ass, blizzard should consider changing the armor type of the ultra so that it did not take extra dmg from tanks.

Liquid`TLO

Germany767 Posts

June 03 2010 14:10 GMT

#435

give me an opponent, a reasonable time and I will be there. My time is rather limited atm but I am sure we will find a way!

Diamond

United States10796 Posts

June 03 2010 14:11 GMT

#436

On June 03 2010 23:10 TheLittleOne wrote:
give me an oponnent, a resonable time and I will be there. My time is rather limited atm but I am sure we will a way!

PM me and we will figure it out.