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On June 03 2010 23:53 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 23:51 shiftY803 wrote:
All I saw was the rax with no addon, depots, and a couple marines when I checked his ramp. Had I also sacced an overlord, I would have seen 3 more rax, but I didn't. Do most people sac an overlord early? I see most people sac an OV vs T nowadays....I think its worth it myself to avoid a situation where you lose to an all-in like that
Yeah it sucks, but if you have that little information you probably should do it. At the very least you should realize you have no scouting information and try to do something a little more safe. Having lings+blings is something that should do alright, speedlings are always useful and later on you can use the blings in drops. This is especially true if you see many marines on the ramp as early on a lot of mech builds seem to cut marines for hellions.
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On June 03 2010 23:42 shiftY803 wrote:
One thing I think is a problem in a "mech vs. zerg showmatch" is that the zerg player enters the game KNOWING the terran is going mech. That is ridiculous and changes the game completely.
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The whole premise of this threads argument is that Mech is NOT winnable, under any circumstance, in the late game.
Denoting "late game" means that the opponent WILL know that the Terran is going mech.
So, I really don't understand your apprehension here? It was obvious in the matches posted, the zerg KNEW the T was full mech LONG before the game ended, in fact, in both games, they knew a few supply armies before the end of the game (They had plenty of time to rebuild anything they wanted.)...The PREMISE of the OP was that EVERYTHING is ineffective.
Now are you trying to say that mech is exploitable if you do proper scouting?
Doesn't that defeat your entire argument?
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On June 03 2010 21:02 TheLittleOne wrote:Show nested quote +Question vs mech do you play long macro games or go for timing attacks? This thread was intended to be about the fact that vs mech you can't macro you have to break the terran earlier and for many of the macro players like Sheth or Idra this means they are forced to play out of their chosen playstyle. I usually go for long macro oriented games, I start with ling infestor try to grab a third base and then tech up to ultralisks who do SO much damage against mech. also drop upgrade for overlords is essential. its basicly like in broodwar. Stall time with ling + defiler. So you can get your ultras out and then you will be fine.
win.
im glad tlo made that bw reference, thats exactly how i feel about tvz. things aren't imba cause you can't beat them.
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I'm not qualified enough to say whether tanks are imbalanced, but what I can say is that I find tanks boring. Really boring.
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On June 03 2010 23:59 Lithose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 23:42 shiftY803 wrote:
One thing I think is a problem in a "mech vs. zerg showmatch" is that the zerg player enters the game KNOWING the terran is going mech. That is ridiculous and changes the game completely.
. The whole premise of this threads argument is that Mech is NOT winnable, under any circumstance, in the late game. Denoting "late game" means that the opponent WILL know that the Terran is going mech. So, I really don't understand your apprehension here? It was obvious in the matches posted, the zerg KNEW the T was full mech LONG before the game ended, in fact, in both games, they knew a few supply armies before the end of the game (They had plenty of time to rebuild anything they wanted.)...The PREMISE of the OP was that EVERYTHING is ineffective. Now are you trying to say that mech is exploitable if you do proper scouting? Doesn't that defeat your entire argument?
Of course mech is winnable. If the zerg player is better, or if he just eventually wins. Broken doesn't mean 100-0. Broken could mean 55-45, or 65-35, whatever. Zerg players won't ever stop saying imba until something is proven to work 50-50, skill being equal.
Edit: To clarify, I'm saying you can change your early build and decision-making if you know what the opponent is doing. Like against P, zerg has to always worry about 2-gate pressure. What if you knew, for a certainity, that he was going to do one gate->core. Well, then just go ahead and throw down that early hatch without even scouting. This is starting to be a dumb argument, I just wanted to get people thinking a little bit.
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On June 04 2010 00:03 shiftY803 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 23:59 Lithose wrote:On June 03 2010 23:42 shiftY803 wrote:
One thing I think is a problem in a "mech vs. zerg showmatch" is that the zerg player enters the game KNOWING the terran is going mech. That is ridiculous and changes the game completely.
. The whole premise of this threads argument is that Mech is NOT winnable, under any circumstance, in the late game. Denoting "late game" means that the opponent WILL know that the Terran is going mech. So, I really don't understand your apprehension here? It was obvious in the matches posted, the zerg KNEW the T was full mech LONG before the game ended, in fact, in both games, they knew a few supply armies before the end of the game (They had plenty of time to rebuild anything they wanted.)...The PREMISE of the OP was that EVERYTHING is ineffective. Now are you trying to say that mech is exploitable if you do proper scouting? Doesn't that defeat your entire argument? Of course mech is winnable. If the zerg player is better, or if he just eventually wins. Broken doesn't mean 100-0. Broken could mean 55-45, or 65-35, whatever. Zerg players won't ever stop saying imba until something is proven to work 50-50, skill being equal.
Well nothing will ever be 50/50 strictly because of map imbalances...some races and matchups will always be slanted on certain maps just as it was in BW. I think one of the main probs with mech actually is the fact that a lot of maps currently favor terran with small chokes and distances..I see zerg have a lot more success on Metalopolis which is the most wide open map than on something like Steppes of War or LT
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On June 03 2010 21:02 TheLittleOne wrote:Show nested quote +Question vs mech do you play long macro games or go for timing attacks? This thread was intended to be about the fact that vs mech you can't macro you have to break the terran earlier and for many of the macro players like Sheth or Idra this means they are forced to play out of their chosen playstyle. I usually go for long macro oriented games, I start with ling infestor try to grab a third base and then tech up to ultralisks who do SO much damage against mech. also drop upgrade for overlords is essential. its basicly like in broodwar. Stall time with ling + defiler. So you can get your ultras out and then you will be fine.
do you have any replays you could show us with this strat? cause I'm really curious to see how you executed this and to know if the terran was just plainly sucking or most zergs are just complaning for notting. To be honest... at some point I had much success with ultras but now... seems that terran has found a way around ultras
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Dont worry too much guys !! We have Bz dont forget ! The patch in the furture you never know what gonna happen XD maybe tank range from 13 to 10 !!
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I Agree with the OP
removing the smart targetting will make them do less damage uncontrolled but opens up more opportunities to improve by splitting attacks manually
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Okay I thought SC2 is a RTS game. We are the COMMANDER giving COMMANDS to units,right? But they're not fat ham bags without brains. They have their own,little minds which make them know what they need to do. What would You do if You saw a tank with small force of infantry? Kill infantry and laugh at tank? Yeah,tanks are so weak,who cares,RIGHT? Tanks are something to be feared of in real life. People know what THEY SHOULD TARGET FIRST. Bunker with heavy machine gun? WE NEED TO TAKE IT DOWN TO ADVANCE. Tank? WE NEED TO TAKE IT DOWN SO WE CAN ADVANCE. Infantry with Anti-tank weapons? WE NEED TO TAKE THEM DOWN SO OUR TANK WILL REMAIN UNHARMED. Are people mindless slugs whose don't know what they should do? They can't count how many mortar rounds they should shoot to clear a bunker? Of course they'll always shoot one or two more,but damn not ENTIRE SUPPLY. If You want to make Tanks in SC2 mindless slugs whose don't know with what they fight,how they should fight and what they should target,OK. Just make supply cap 50,so everyone can damn control them right. No problem in SC1? Yeah,because other units did not have their own "minds". SC2 should be a next-gen RTS. Not a step-back.
User was warned for this post
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On June 03 2010 13:20 drewbie.root wrote:
you are wrong iEchoic, put sen vs qxc or me, he will lose 100% no chance, put any zerg up ok? its stupidly imba
ahh I would like to play vs your mech 
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On June 04 2010 01:00 Sen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 13:20 drewbie.root wrote:
you are wrong iEchoic, put sen vs qxc or me, he will lose 100% no chance, put any zerg up ok? its stupidly imba ahh I would like to play vs your mech
damn where is iCCup.Diamond when you need him!!
edit: lol right below me
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On June 04 2010 01:00 Sen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 13:20 drewbie.root wrote:
you are wrong iEchoic, put sen vs qxc or me, he will lose 100% no chance, put any zerg up ok? its stupidly imba ahh I would like to play vs your mech
Let's make it happen along with TLO vs. mech. Let's do a Zerg vs. Mech event!
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On June 04 2010 01:00 Sen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 13:20 drewbie.root wrote:
you are wrong iEchoic, put sen vs qxc or me, he will lose 100% no chance, put any zerg up ok? its stupidly imba ahh I would like to play vs your mech
I just had a nerdgasm. Sen and TLO are two of my favourite players to watch. Much respect to these hero zergs
If we could get oGs.Cool in on this too my mind would assplode.
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On June 04 2010 01:04 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 01:00 Sen wrote:On June 03 2010 13:20 drewbie.root wrote:
you are wrong iEchoic, put sen vs qxc or me, he will lose 100% no chance, put any zerg up ok? its stupidly imba ahh I would like to play vs your mech Let's make it happen along with TLO vs. mech. Let's do a Zerg vs. Mech event!
This! Sen and TLO vs Mech? LOL nice :D...Make this happen!
Go Sen, go TLO! (Yes I've been playing terran lately so go team that shows theres no imba in ZvT!)
Oh and Maka plays a really solid mech and Cool beat him so  we're going to see the Zs win and show theres no imba in mech right? :D
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Anything like this would be awesome if it can be set up in time. I don't even care how the games turn out tbh.
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I think that Tanks need a different type of firing priority, Ultras need to be stronger somehow or cost less food or something.. they just get eaten up so fast even with 8-10..
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I don't see how this "discussion" is still ongoing, if you want to sit on your ass and play a passive macro game without the slightest adaptation to your play, then throw half of the maps resources worth of units at a force that specializes in strong defense... and then make claims of imbalance? You guys need to give it more time before you start claiming imba matchups.
Has anyone considered that T players mech because its (so far) the safest and most effective way to play against zerg?
Consider the maps, most of them are small and have many narrow choke points that mech can brilliantly take advantage of, if the playing field allows for a certain type of play style, then smart players will abuse the shit out of it.
One last thing to think about is Terran Bio against Zerg. TLO (hes the first top player I've seen do this, I don't know if hes the first however) has shown some incredible ling/speedling/bling/infestor use against Bio. I'm sure there are countless ways to defeat that style of play while still playing bio, likewise, I'm sure there are countless ways for Zerg to play against Mech.
NOTE- If my post is poorly organized I apologize, I started last night but I went to sleep before I finished it.
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EPT
