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Thats one hell of an angry rant if Ive ever seen one an you didn't do much besides imply every terran that uses mech is a scrub which isn't very constructive. Terrans other options? Go Bio an get raped by plague spam an rouch/hydra... so can you blame them for using alot of tanks?
See? Bio has an answer. There is no answer to Mech.
Provide me a multitude of replays at the Diamond level, against randomly pitted opponents, ZvT, where the Zerg player wins consistently with a single strategy that is consistent across all maps. Because I can find plenty of replays of the opposite.
No, do not provide me a bunch of replays of Sen beating Terran's with 3 Siege Tanks and Marine/Marauders. That is not Mech.
Once I see these, I will shut up, admit I am a total scrub who is just not good enough to beat Mech, and I'll go on my way.
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On June 04 2010 01:59 Uranium wrote:
From SC1 to SC2 both Tanks and Zerglings got AI buffs. Tanks shoot smarter and Zerglings run better.
However the Tank got a DPS buff and a splash buff, while the Zergling got a DPS nerf. Additionally the combined bunched Zergling AI + no tank overkill = Zerglings are fucking useless now. They used to be decent at killing tanks if you could get enough of them in range. Oh did I mention no more Dark Swarm?
Solution: Nerf tank AI, buff Zergling DPS, bring back Dark Swarm!
I'm down for a zergling dps buff, but Dark swarm? really? There is no way dark swarm could really be balanced imo.
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On June 04 2010 02:02 Wr3k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 01:59 Uranium wrote:
From SC1 to SC2 both Tanks and Zerglings got AI buffs. Tanks shoot smarter and Zerglings run better.
However the Tank got a DPS buff and a splash buff, while the Zergling got a DPS nerf. Additionally the combined bunched Zergling AI + no tank overkill = Zerglings are fucking useless now. They used to be decent at killing tanks if you could get enough of them in range. Oh did I mention no more Dark Swarm?
Solution: Nerf tank AI, buff Zergling DPS, bring back Dark Swarm! I'm down for a zergling dps buff, but Dark swarm? really? There is no way dark swarm could really be balanced imo.
Zergling dps? Why that? They wont reach sieged tanks, but they are already strong enough to kill Thors without cover from tanks. Higher Zergling dps will do only one thing: Screw up the EARLY GAME.
Burrowed Roaches coming from several sides will eventually reach the tanks and then the tanks will kill themselves with Splash ... OR they unsiege and they dont have a chance to kill the burrowed Roaches.
Stop thinking that you have to be able to do a ground assault against a sieged bunch of tanks. Use your superior air force as IdrA shows!
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he has a point theres really only one unit that counters seiged tanks and by the time you get it they have already done enough damage to you that they dont need to seige up anymore and can just use a few vikings to finish it off. =/
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I think between 2 equal skilled players Mech will always win against Zerg.
To win as Zerg vs Mech the opponent has to make mistakes and you have to be able to abuse them.
My brother told me about the shift-queue-attack and combined with the smart AI... they really are extremely overpowered (have been since the start from beta... but nobody used them. blah the 10 HP buff  ).
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Poll: Sen vs Drewbie Mech Showdown?Yes (70) 93% No (5) 7% 75 total votes Your vote: Sen vs Drewbie Mech Showdown? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: TLO vs QXC Showdown?Yes (77) 99% No (1) 1% 78 total votes Your vote: TLO vs QXC Showdown? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Let's make it happen Bo7 Mech vs Zerg is it unstoppable :D we'll find out!!!
Can't wait to see these show matches. If someone could possibly put this poll in its own thread (someone with a familiar face) would make this event that much more epic.
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On June 04 2010 02:06 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 02:02 Wr3k wrote:On June 04 2010 01:59 Uranium wrote:
From SC1 to SC2 both Tanks and Zerglings got AI buffs. Tanks shoot smarter and Zerglings run better.
However the Tank got a DPS buff and a splash buff, while the Zergling got a DPS nerf. Additionally the combined bunched Zergling AI + no tank overkill = Zerglings are fucking useless now. They used to be decent at killing tanks if you could get enough of them in range. Oh did I mention no more Dark Swarm?
Solution: Nerf tank AI, buff Zergling DPS, bring back Dark Swarm! I'm down for a zergling dps buff, but Dark swarm? really? There is no way dark swarm could really be balanced imo. Zergling dps? Why that? They wont reach sieged tanks, but they are already strong enough to kill Thors without cover from tanks. Burrowed Roaches coming from several sides will eventually reach the tanks and then the tanks will kill themselves with Splash ... OR they unsiege and they dont have a chance to kill the burrowed Roaches. Stop thinking that you have to be able to do a ground assault against a sieged bunch of tanks. Use your superior air force as IdrA shows!
Lol I wasn't saying it was needed, just saying I'm down with a zergling dps buff, I don't think it would completely break the game if they were more on par with thier SC1 counterparts, where dark swarm would surely screw up everything. Either way, it has nothing to do with the thread so I'm gonna stop.
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I watched those sheth reps and with the amount of mistakes on his part, he didnt deserve to win either of those games. I'm not saying that tvz is fully balanced, but the gap is nowhere near what can be seen in those games, sheth's play was just ... bad.
first of all - a zerg needs to actually know when to STOP producing drones, its ok to oversaturate your main since you know you'll transfer some of the drones to your nat and the rest to 2nd/3rd nat, but there's something wrong when a zerg has 20+ drones in his main that are nearly finished gathering and he still produces 20+ drones in his 2nd nat and then repeats the same mistake with his 3rd nat and in the result, stays with 100 drones for half of the game's duration.
to top it off, his attacks almost never target the terran's army, he goes for the expos, only god knows what for since its obvious his opponent has a shitpile of resources stocked at this point, kills off scvs thus allowing the terran to even further strenghten his army.
You can't expect to be able to do shit to a full terran's mech army who has 30 to 50 MAX food in workers, while you have double that at each stage of the game, and your 200/200 army consists of 40 roaches and some change.
the game on steppes of war is even better, he sees 30+ tanks and decides to switch to... ultras, just brilliant. had he switched to broodlords the game would've been pretty much over at that point.
terrans mech is slightly too strong and yes its very easy to pull off, but a good zerg has a fighting chance against this, provided he makes the right unit switches and actually attempts to weaken the terran's army with each wave of his attacks, not suicides it to kill a planetary fortress and some scvs.
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On June 04 2010 02:01 Grimjim wrote:Show nested quote +Thats one hell of an angry rant if Ive ever seen one an you didn't do much besides imply every terran that uses mech is a scrub which isn't very constructive. Terrans other options? Go Bio an get raped by plague spam an rouch/hydra... so can you blame them for using alot of tanks? See? Bio has an answer. There is no answer to Mech. Provide me a multitude of replays at the Diamond level, against randomly pitted opponents, ZvT, where the Zerg player wins consistently with a single strategy that is consistent across all maps. Because I can find plenty of replays of the opposite. No, do not provide me a bunch of replays of Sen beating Terran's with 3 Siege Tanks and Marine/Marauders. That is not Mech. Once I see these, I will shut up, admit I am a total scrub who is just not good enough to beat Mech, and I'll go on my way.
As I said before I think Ultras's needed to be buffed to fit the roll of Anti-mech, something like the immortals hardened shell but I still don't think mech is as overpowered as everyone is screaming.
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But I love my terran mech, it is what makes us so special.
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On June 04 2010 02:01 Grimjim wrote:Show nested quote +Thats one hell of an angry rant if Ive ever seen one an you didn't do much besides imply every terran that uses mech is a scrub which isn't very constructive. Terrans other options? Go Bio an get raped by plague spam an rouch/hydra... so can you blame them for using alot of tanks? See? Bio has an answer. There is no answer to Mech. Provide me a multitude of replays at the Diamond level, against randomly pitted opponents, ZvT, where the Zerg player wins consistently with a single strategy that is consistent across all maps. Because I can find plenty of replays of the opposite. No, do not provide me a bunch of replays of Sen beating Terran's with 3 Siege Tanks and Marine/Marauders. That is not Mech. Once I see these, I will shut up, admit I am a total scrub who is just not good enough to beat Mech, and I'll go on my way.
herpa derp, pls providez me single strategy that consistently works on every map against terran as zerg derp derp.
Come on man...you're trying to ask for starcraft 2 to be a 1 build game that'll always work, if there were a single strat taht worked against terran mech every single time then what would the point be in that matchup.
In my opinion, if you want to be terran mech, you have burrow, you have movement underground, you have drops, you have mind control to have tanks kill themselves, you have fungal growth, theres always options to fight what you perceive as unbeatable, but nothing is unbeatable. iNcontroL was talking about this on LZ's stream during the TT1 v Artosis showmatch, terran mech is difficult to counter but its not unbeatable, Terran Mech was also difficult to beat in BW but its not unbeatable, theres nothing in SC2 that is unbeatable.
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On June 04 2010 02:16 ZlaSHeR wrote:
herpa derp, pls providez me single strategy that consistently works on every map against terran as zerg derp derp.
Come on man...you're trying to ask for starcraft 2 to be a 1 build game that'll always work, if there were a single strat taht worked against terran mech every single time then what would the point be in that matchup.
In my opinion, if you want to be terran mech, you have burrow, you have movement underground, you have drops, you have mind control to have tanks kill themselves, you have fungal growth, theres always options to fight what you perceive as unbeatable, but nothing is unbeatable. iNcontroL was talking about this on LZ's stream during the TT1 v Artosis showmatch, terran mech is difficult to counter but its not unbeatable, Terran Mech was also difficult to beat in BW but its not unbeatable, theres nothing in SC2 that is unbeatable.
Burrow - Missle Turrets,Ravens,You always have additional units which can deal with burrowed Roaches after they unburrow,retreating works too.
Mind Control - 9<13 Learn math
Fungal - It's not-so effective
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On June 04 2010 02:16 ZlaSHeR wrote:
terran mech is difficult to counter but its not unbeatable, Terran Mech was also difficult to beat in BW but its not unbeatable, theres nothing in SC2 that is unbeatable.
Of course it isn't unbeatable, but it shouldn't be so hard that the Zerg player has to pull off way more difficult and APM-intensive moves than the Terran player in order to beat the him (I'm in no position to claim so, but it's the premise of the discussion).
Anyway. I would love to see this race-balance showdown matches happen. It would be a new milestone in RTS-beta testing.
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In my opinion, if you want to be terran mech, you have burrow, you have movement underground, you have drops, you have mind control to have tanks kill themselves, you have fungal growth,
all those "Options" are simply NOT VIABLE against any decent mech terran. burrow and movement burrow are completely usreless against scan and raven. Furthermore the terran will see your roach moving burrowed and he will symple scan and completely rape them while theyre burrowed... so usefull
can you explain to me how you NP a tank who has 13 range with a 9 range spell ? I really need to see that. Same with fungal growth against tanks.
Drop are going to be spotted with sensor tower and your overlords getting destroyed by vikings, that has been said a thousands of time... If you dont play zerg/mech terran just dont give some crappy solution like you're the messiah and all the zerg are fucking noobs.
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i never go mass ground army against Terran anymore because Tanks are so ridicoulosly good.
Thor/Viking/Rines/Tanks/Ravens are just as hard to deal with with Ling/Bling and Muta/Blord/Corruptor.. but at least you instantly sacrifice only half your army to the tanks  (the rest to the Thors and Rines though... cuz with no ground support your Mutas get eaten alive too).
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On June 04 2010 02:18 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 02:16 ZlaSHeR wrote:
herpa derp, pls providez me single strategy that consistently works on every map against terran as zerg derp derp.
Come on man...you're trying to ask for starcraft 2 to be a 1 build game that'll always work, if there were a single strat taht worked against terran mech every single time then what would the point be in that matchup.
In my opinion, if you want to be terran mech, you have burrow, you have movement underground, you have drops, you have mind control to have tanks kill themselves, you have fungal growth, theres always options to fight what you perceive as unbeatable, but nothing is unbeatable. iNcontroL was talking about this on LZ's stream during the TT1 v Artosis showmatch, terran mech is difficult to counter but its not unbeatable, Terran Mech was also difficult to beat in BW but its not unbeatable, theres nothing in SC2 that is unbeatable. Burrow - Missle Turrets,Ravens,You always have additional units which can deal with burrowed Roaches after they unburrow,retreating works too. Mind Control - 9<13 Learn math Fungal - It's not-so effective
So you're telling me terran not only builds mass siege tanks and pushes out with them, but they also build turrets in the middle of the amp for detection? Gotcha, let me try out that strat later, throwing up 100 minerals in the middle of the map with no salvage and no practical use, genius.
9<13 sure, but are you saying you'll only have 9 infestors out by the time they haev 22 siege tanks? If thats the case you're a really shitty zerg. Plus the idea is that you mind control just one tank, and if they're clustered up, which for the most part they will be since everyone has 1 control group syndrome, they blow each other up, therefore mindcontrolling 9 will fuck up the 13. If you're saying that the terran mech will kill the infestors, well thats what high ground is for. I'll tell you if I push out with tanks on Lost Temple, plenty of times there are infestors on the high ground, basically used to hold the tanks and turtle up while they get ultralisks out (which do fuck up tanks, they're fast now, have 300 hp, and can get up close. If I'm getting a viking or raven in order to see the high ground, you mind control that and guess what, they dont' have vision AND they cant kill the raven/viking because theyr'e fucking siege tanks. Thors you say? Maybe they'll attack the air unit? Well shit, you grab the thor too.
Fungal growth is not so effective? Tanks bunched up, lock them down deal like 50 damage over time to a 125 hp unit, they can't move so they wont' unsiege or anything, well thats when you can do something fancy to them.
Yes, Tanks are good against zerg, but believe it or not, you're wrong if you think that its unstoppable.
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On June 04 2010 02:20 Glufs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 02:16 ZlaSHeR wrote:
terran mech is difficult to counter but its not unbeatable, Terran Mech was also difficult to beat in BW but its not unbeatable, theres nothing in SC2 that is unbeatable. Of course it isn't unbeatable, but it shouldn't be so hard that the Zerg player has to pull off way more difficult and APM-intensive moves than the Terran player in order to beat the him (I'm in no position to claim so, but it's the premise of the discussion). Anyway. I would love to see this race-balance showdown matches happen. It would be a new milestone in RTS-beta testing.
This seems to be the mind set of all the Zerg posting so far "Zomg all Terran are scrubs an Zerg takes so much moar skillz but mech is to imbalanced!!!! NERFZZ!!" or something along those lines. Terran has two choices go Bio which does alright early game an then get rolled by Zerg later on or switch to mech an turtle up, same goes for Protoss you can't really rely on gateway unit for long so you need to get a robo out pretty quickly if the Zergs going hydra/rouch.
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On June 04 2010 02:28 ZlaSHeR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 02:18 Kurumi wrote:On June 04 2010 02:16 ZlaSHeR wrote:
herpa derp, pls providez me single strategy that consistently works on every map against terran as zerg derp derp.
Come on man...you're trying to ask for starcraft 2 to be a 1 build game that'll always work, if there were a single strat taht worked against terran mech every single time then what would the point be in that matchup.
In my opinion, if you want to be terran mech, you have burrow, you have movement underground, you have drops, you have mind control to have tanks kill themselves, you have fungal growth, theres always options to fight what you perceive as unbeatable, but nothing is unbeatable. iNcontroL was talking about this on LZ's stream during the TT1 v Artosis showmatch, terran mech is difficult to counter but its not unbeatable, Terran Mech was also difficult to beat in BW but its not unbeatable, theres nothing in SC2 that is unbeatable. Burrow - Missle Turrets,Ravens,You always have additional units which can deal with burrowed Roaches after they unburrow,retreating works too. Mind Control - 9<13 Learn math Fungal - It's not-so effective So you're telling me terran not only builds mass siege tanks and pushes out with them, but they also build turrets in the middle of the amp for detection? Gotcha, let me try out that strat later, throwing up 100 minerals in the middle of the map with no salvage and no practical use, genius.
The pros do it, why not?
If 100 minerals can assure that you cant be backstabbed by some roaches and also helps versus air, why not?
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I don't see how this "discussion" is still ongoing, if you want to sit on your ass and play a passive macro game without the slightest adaptation to your play, then throw half of the maps resources worth of units at a force that specializes in strong defense... and then make claims of imbalance? You guys need to give it more time before you start claiming imba matchups.
Yes, because this thread is about the usual lazy ass zerg who goes macro-macro-1-a and cries and not actually about decent players who do stuff like drops and nydusworms and running around their chair while singing "whallahallululu".
We get it. 1a is not the way to do it. Problem is that even if you are not that bad, mech still seems to be, regardless of what unit composition and attacking ways Zerg chooses, extremely safe and, if i may say with all respect to the excellent terran players, isn't as demanding skillwise as all the effort that Zerg has to put into his play. Terran needs to take care of the map and macro well and get their timings down and then finally siege his way up to the zerg base... and Zerg has to do all that and search for all the little holes in terrans defense. Always when i win vs. terran-mech it seems like "oh well, but if he just had three turrets/a signal tower build here i couldn't have nydused and raped his base while he was sitting at the front of his expo.". Those are just blunders, but not a actual weakness in his strategy.
Long story short, it just SUCKS that you cannot beat the terran army without trickery, because all trickery works only if he doesn't have detection at some points, doesn't have turrets here, doesn't leave 2 tanks in base to defend, i.e. if he's making obvious mistakes.
That beeing said SC2 is still young, so i'm not saying this is the end of story, but the difficulty for Z is not something that suddenly jumped in somebodies mind but pretty real.
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On June 04 2010 01:36 rei wrote:This is not fair, sen and TLO is so much better than all the other terrans on the table for this z vs mech show down, it would result in one sided rapes, let's put Maka on the table then maybe we have a better representation of what Terran is truly capable of with mech. and yes like TLO said ultras are the counter, it works fine as long as you put 4 ultras in melee range of bunch of tanks, each ultra does 40 damage all have splash damage, so all the tanks get own after 1 swipes from 4 ultras as they each splash all the tanks near. Drop them with overlords if you have to, it works try it. What qualify me agree agreeing with TLO's advice? I tested this with my friends and my friends are good, also I did beat Chill + kennigit 1vs2 and i got replay to prove it
For nearly half this thread, Drewbie has been saying he would woop anyone's ass with mech...And almost every Zerg in this thread has pointed to him as being one of the top Terran players and used his statements as gospel regarding the OPness of mech.
But now that there is an actual challenge of two extremely strong Zerg vs Drewbie, he isn't good enough anymore?
Don't understand.
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EPT
