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On June 04 2010 02:28 ZlaSHeR wrote:
So you're telling me terran not only builds mass siege tanks and pushes out with them, but they also build turrets in the middle of the amp for detection? Gotcha, let me try out that strat later, throwing up 100 minerals in the middle of the map with no salvage and no practical use, genius.
eh dude... you need to watch more VODs / Replay or get in top diamond (> 600 points), no offence but Terran does put alot of towers in the middle of the field to prevent any AIR and get detects. Also you forgot to add "SCAN" to your detection list!
nways just saying
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Zlasher you aren't really helping your cause...
Tanks are 160hp and FG does only 36dmg. Ultras have 500 hp not 300, they're no faster than they were before (with upgrade) and if you rely on high ground you are generally giving up map position on the Terran taking away your one advantage of mobility. Plus many maps have a natural that's far enough away to avoid the main's high ground.
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On June 04 2010 02:28 ZlaSHeR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 02:18 Kurumi wrote:On June 04 2010 02:16 ZlaSHeR wrote:
herpa derp, pls providez me single strategy that consistently works on every map against terran as zerg derp derp.
Come on man...you're trying to ask for starcraft 2 to be a 1 build game that'll always work, if there were a single strat taht worked against terran mech every single time then what would the point be in that matchup.
In my opinion, if you want to be terran mech, you have burrow, you have movement underground, you have drops, you have mind control to have tanks kill themselves, you have fungal growth, theres always options to fight what you perceive as unbeatable, but nothing is unbeatable. iNcontroL was talking about this on LZ's stream during the TT1 v Artosis showmatch, terran mech is difficult to counter but its not unbeatable, Terran Mech was also difficult to beat in BW but its not unbeatable, theres nothing in SC2 that is unbeatable. Burrow - Missle Turrets,Ravens,You always have additional units which can deal with burrowed Roaches after they unburrow,retreating works too. Mind Control - 9<13 Learn math Fungal - It's not-so effective So you're telling me terran not only builds mass siege tanks and pushes out with them, but they also build turrets in the middle of the amp for detection? Gotcha, let me try out that strat later, throwing up 100 minerals in the middle of the map with no salvage and no practical use, genius.9<13 sure, but are you saying you'll only have 9 infestors out by the time they haev 22 siege tanks? If thats the case you're a really shitty zerg. Plus the idea is that you mind control just one tank, and if they're clustered up, which for the most part they will be since everyone has 1 control group syndrome, they blow each other up, therefore mindcontrolling 9 will fuck up the 13. If you're saying that the terran mech will kill the infestors, well thats what high ground is for. I'll tell you if I push out with tanks on Lost Temple, plenty of times there are infestors on the high ground, basically used to hold the tanks and turtle up while they get ultralisks out (which do fuck up tanks, they're fast now, have 300 hp, and can get up close. If I'm getting a viking or raven in order to see the high ground, you mind control that and guess what, they dont' have vision AND they cant kill the raven/viking because theyr'e fucking siege tanks. Thors you say? Maybe they'll attack the air unit? Well shit, you grab the thor too. Fungal growth is not so effective? Tanks bunched up, lock them down deal like 50 damage over time to a 125 hp unit, they can't move so they wont' unsiege or anything, well thats when you can do something fancy to them. Yes, Tanks are good against zerg, but believe it or not, you're wrong if you think that its unstoppable.
TLO did it on Lost Temple, along with random Planetary Fortresses to protect his expo's since his army isn't that mobile it buys him a lot of time.
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I agree completely. Get rid of the smart AI target aquisition and tanks will be perfect.
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heh interesting list people saying mech is to strong, half of that list was very vocal about mech being useless at the start of the beta.... but what this means is that the metagame is constantly evolving still for terran's matchups and no one really knows for sure, a balance change may not be needed, ive been pushed back by a few tosses that used upgraded warp prisms by zealot dropping on my tanks and doing light harrasment all over... I was a rank 1 platinum first reset and now a diamond, which is basically the new plat any way but, the times my mech has been stopped, its because a player did something unorthodox and did not send wave after wave into my tanks. I would love to post replays but unfornutely my old harddrive died that had good examples =/ if i get a few decent games ill be sure to post them up. but some examples i can describe is that for protoss ive been beaten by a vortex and a few phoenixes lifting my tanks while a bunch of charge zeals were dropped in by warp prisms, while stalkers with blink killed my vikings. zergs, i rarely see anything creative out of them, would like to know how overlord drops and those things would work against this.
also on the topic of drops into the tanks, tbh im all for removing the overkill AI as that would massively buff dropping into mass tanks to a similar level of SC1.
but can someone correct me if im wrong but isnt this terran mech situation very similar to SC1? in which the mech army was nearly unstoppable and the other races had to abuse the fact that T mech isnt mobile.... However this may be a map issue as well as alot of the great T matches in SC1 ive watched, seemed to be on bigger maps =/
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On June 04 2010 02:59 KiF1rE wrote:
heh interesting list people saying mech is to strong, half of that list was very vocal about mech being useless at the start of the beta....
They totally changed the Thor, the tank price/time production and the AOE damages (they are much stronger now).
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but can someone correct me if im wrong but isnt this terran mech situation very similar to SC1? in which the mech army was nearly unstoppable and the other races had to abuse the fact that T mech isnt mobile.... However this may be a map issue as well as alot of the great T matches in SC1 ive watched, seemed to be on bigger maps =/
no this is completely different, in BW you were able to make mutas, they were strong and not instantly killed by thors. If you made mutas terran players had to make a ton of goliath which werent good against ground army unlike thors. You can add the fact that tank has smart AI, make full damage to zergling/hydralisk, and hellion are way more devastating against zerglings than vultures.
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Zlasher I stopped reading after You called Missle Turrets useless.
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so... why are people arguing still. isn't the guy who said 100% win gonna step up and prove it?
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On June 04 2010 02:45 Merikh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 02:28 ZlaSHeR wrote:On June 04 2010 02:18 Kurumi wrote:On June 04 2010 02:16 ZlaSHeR wrote:
herpa derp, pls providez me single strategy that consistently works on every map against terran as zerg derp derp.
Come on man...you're trying to ask for starcraft 2 to be a 1 build game that'll always work, if there were a single strat taht worked against terran mech every single time then what would the point be in that matchup.
In my opinion, if you want to be terran mech, you have burrow, you have movement underground, you have drops, you have mind control to have tanks kill themselves, you have fungal growth, theres always options to fight what you perceive as unbeatable, but nothing is unbeatable. iNcontroL was talking about this on LZ's stream during the TT1 v Artosis showmatch, terran mech is difficult to counter but its not unbeatable, Terran Mech was also difficult to beat in BW but its not unbeatable, theres nothing in SC2 that is unbeatable. Burrow - Missle Turrets,Ravens,You always have additional units which can deal with burrowed Roaches after they unburrow,retreating works too. Mind Control - 9<13 Learn math Fungal - It's not-so effective So you're telling me terran not only builds mass siege tanks and pushes out with them, but they also build turrets in the middle of the amp for detection? Gotcha, let me try out that strat later, throwing up 100 minerals in the middle of the map with no salvage and no practical use, genius.9<13 sure, but are you saying you'll only have 9 infestors out by the time they haev 22 siege tanks? If thats the case you're a really shitty zerg. Plus the idea is that you mind control just one tank, and if they're clustered up, which for the most part they will be since everyone has 1 control group syndrome, they blow each other up, therefore mindcontrolling 9 will fuck up the 13. If you're saying that the terran mech will kill the infestors, well thats what high ground is for. I'll tell you if I push out with tanks on Lost Temple, plenty of times there are infestors on the high ground, basically used to hold the tanks and turtle up while they get ultralisks out (which do fuck up tanks, they're fast now, have 300 hp, and can get up close. If I'm getting a viking or raven in order to see the high ground, you mind control that and guess what, they dont' have vision AND they cant kill the raven/viking because theyr'e fucking siege tanks. Thors you say? Maybe they'll attack the air unit? Well shit, you grab the thor too. Fungal growth is not so effective? Tanks bunched up, lock them down deal like 50 damage over time to a 125 hp unit, they can't move so they wont' unsiege or anything, well thats when you can do something fancy to them. Yes, Tanks are good against zerg, but believe it or not, you're wrong if you think that its unstoppable. TLO did it on Lost Temple, along with random Planetary Fortresses to protect his expo's since his army isn't that mobile it buys him a lot of time.
Are you talking about that game vs Idra? Because I'm pretty sure TLO lost that game
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Ok I'm setting this up for ASAP and it will be cast on iCCup TV.
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On June 04 2010 02:28 ZlaSHeR wrote:
So you're telling me terran not only builds mass siege tanks and pushes out with them, but they also build turrets in the middle of the amp for detection? Gotcha, let me try out that strat later, throwing up 100 minerals in the middle of the map with no salvage and no practical use, genius.
1 gaz is aprox 2.5 mineral because or the collecting rate on 1 base. ( and That doesn't count MULE)
Tank cost Min: 150 Gaz: 125 Ratio: 1.2
Thor cost Min: 300 Gaz: 200 Ratio: 1.5
Oh well I think that mean I have a lot of extra mineral. Where should I spend it?
Marine or/and Turret
Turret also detect borrow roach by the time you get a raven......
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On June 04 2010 02:16 ZlaSHeR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 02:01 Grimjim wrote:Thats one hell of an angry rant if Ive ever seen one an you didn't do much besides imply every terran that uses mech is a scrub which isn't very constructive. Terrans other options? Go Bio an get raped by plague spam an rouch/hydra... so can you blame them for using alot of tanks? See? Bio has an answer. There is no answer to Mech. Provide me a multitude of replays at the Diamond level, against randomly pitted opponents, ZvT, where the Zerg player wins consistently with a single strategy that is consistent across all maps. Because I can find plenty of replays of the opposite. No, do not provide me a bunch of replays of Sen beating Terran's with 3 Siege Tanks and Marine/Marauders. That is not Mech. Once I see these, I will shut up, admit I am a total scrub who is just not good enough to beat Mech, and I'll go on my way. herpa derp, pls providez me single strategy that consistently works on every map against terran as zerg derp derp. Come on man...you're trying to ask for starcraft 2 to be a 1 build game that'll always work, if there were a single strat taht worked against terran mech every single time then what would the point be in that matchup.
*bangs head on wall*
Uhh, Mech is a single strat that works against Zerg every time. Every game I'm raped by it, I ask the Terran "Hey, how often do you lose using a build like this?" Their answer? "Lol maybe 1 in 20."
Should a build succeed 1 in 20 times?
You ask what's the point of a matchup if one build works everytime. Well, herpa derp, MECH FUCKING WORKS EVERYTIME.
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On June 04 2010 02:59 KiF1rE wrote:
heh interesting list people saying mech is to strong, half of that list was very vocal about mech being useless at the start of the beta.... but what this means is that the metagame is constantly evolving still for terran's matchups and no one really knows for sure, a balance change may not be needed, ive been pushed back by a few tosses that used upgraded warp prisms by zealot dropping on my tanks and doing light harrasment all over... I was a rank 1 platinum first reset and now a diamond, which is basically the new plat any way but, the times my mech has been stopped, its because a player did something unorthodox and did not send wave after wave into my tanks. I would love to post replays but unfornutely my old harddrive died that had good examples =/ if i get a few decent games ill be sure to post them up. but some examples i can describe is that for protoss ive been beaten by a vortex and a few phoenixes lifting my tanks while a bunch of charge zeals were dropped in by warp prisms, while stalkers with blink killed my vikings. zergs, i rarely see anything creative out of them, would like to know how overlord drops and those things would work against this.
also on the topic of drops into the tanks, tbh im all for removing the overkill AI as that would massively buff dropping into mass tanks to a similar level of SC1.
but can someone correct me if im wrong but isnt this terran mech situation very similar to SC1? in which the mech army was nearly unstoppable and the other races had to abuse the fact that T mech isnt mobile.... However this may be a map issue as well as alot of the great T matches in SC1 ive watched, seemed to be on bigger maps =/
Mech would honestly be fine if there wasn't smart AI for tanks. I think that is the reason mech is imba imo. If sc1 tanks had the smart AI tank that sc2 has I think it would have been just as imbalanced.
If you don't know the AI for the sc2 tanks it never overkills a unit so you can't drop a zealot or something on top of tanks only 2-3 will fire at it instead of all 15 (I dont' know the exact numbers to 1 shot a zealot bot I am assuming 2-3 maybe more but you get what I am saying).
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On June 04 2010 03:34 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Ok I'm setting this up for ASAP and it will be cast on iCCup TV.
TEST YOUR MIGHT
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On June 04 2010 04:03 Grimjim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 02:16 ZlaSHeR wrote:On June 04 2010 02:01 Grimjim wrote:Thats one hell of an angry rant if Ive ever seen one an you didn't do much besides imply every terran that uses mech is a scrub which isn't very constructive. Terrans other options? Go Bio an get raped by plague spam an rouch/hydra... so can you blame them for using alot of tanks? See? Bio has an answer. There is no answer to Mech. Provide me a multitude of replays at the Diamond level, against randomly pitted opponents, ZvT, where the Zerg player wins consistently with a single strategy that is consistent across all maps. Because I can find plenty of replays of the opposite. No, do not provide me a bunch of replays of Sen beating Terran's with 3 Siege Tanks and Marine/Marauders. That is not Mech. Once I see these, I will shut up, admit I am a total scrub who is just not good enough to beat Mech, and I'll go on my way. herpa derp, pls providez me single strategy that consistently works on every map against terran as zerg derp derp. Come on man...you're trying to ask for starcraft 2 to be a 1 build game that'll always work, if there were a single strat taht worked against terran mech every single time then what would the point be in that matchup. *bangs head on wall* Uhh, Mech is a single strat that works against Zerg every time. Every game I'm raped by it, I ask the Terran "Hey, how often do you lose using a build like this?" Their answer? "Lol maybe 1 in 20." Should a build succeed 1 in 20 times? You ask what's the point of a matchup if one build works everytime. Well, herpa derp, MECH FUCKING WORKS EVERYTIME.
if you ask what strat the guy used who beat him, then you shall win 20/20 games ez
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if you ask what strat the guy used who beat him, then you shall win 20/20 games ez
I do, and never get a clear response. So I ask here, and I'm told to perform miracles with burrowed Roaches and Mutalisks. So I ask for replays and I get no response.
The level of frustration this brings is astounding. If people would just show me replays I'd shut up. But no one delivers.
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if you ask what strat the guy used who beat him, then you shall win 20/20 games ez
The one loss was the night he got hammered and played SC2 ladder by accident.
In seriousness, a person's skill in any given game varies according to a logistic distribution. Even a player like Flash can lose to someone much weaker on a bad day. Has nothing to do with the strat they used.
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This showmatch will be epic. Although, I hope people realize that it won't prove anything. People will look at the loser and say, "well of course he lost, he made mistake X, and should have done Y, blah blah blah" while the argument continues.
Balance issue aside, I think removing tank smart-targeting would be good for the game in general, because it would allow for exciting tactics from both the terran and their opponent. Right now, there is nothing except autofire and maybe manually targeting an infestor or something. I mean, everyone is always complaining about low skill cap, and this would help raise it a little.
Anyone agree?
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yes I agree but i think there is no chance for blizzard to remove smart AI, theyve worked on it and they are proud of their new AI so i dont see them changing because of players feedback
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its also silly to nerf AI such as this
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EPT
