EPTI am not saying mech isn't too strong. A setup terran army run by a smart player is a tough nut to crack. However,I defintely think the the majority of zerg advocating this are too passive early game. Why do Zerg HAVE to take a fast expo and eco up. Is it written law? Maybe take a later expo while making the terran's life miserable. I just think that it is far too early to contemplate fixes. Worry about perfecting your own play and then when you can come and say your play was divine in its perfection, and you still lost, we have a problem.
How to fix TvZ Mech - Page 28
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Uthgar
United States21 Posts
I am not saying mech isn't too strong. A setup terran army run by a smart player is a tough nut to crack. However,I defintely think the the majority of zerg advocating this are too passive early game. Why do Zerg HAVE to take a fast expo and eco up. Is it written law? Maybe take a later expo while making the terran's life miserable. I just think that it is far too early to contemplate fixes. Worry about perfecting your own play and then when you can come and say your play was divine in its perfection, and you still lost, we have a problem. | ||
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SnakeChomp
Canada125 Posts
On June 04 2010 04:49 Uthgar wrote: I just think that it is far too early to contemplate fixes. Worry about perfecting your own play and then when you can come and say your play was divine in its perfection, and you still lost, we have a problem. I disagree with your argument that we must play perfectly before we can decree that there is a problem. Blizzard uses a fairly straight forward system to determine when there is a problem and when there is not. Simply stated it is thus. "Any strategy should be as easy (or hard) to counter as it is to execute." How easy is it to turtle up as Terran with mech and get fully upgraded? Well, I play Zerg and not Terran so my opinion is biased, but I think it's fair to say that turtling is pretty easy in general. That implies that this strategy is fairly easy to execute. How hard is it for Zerg to attack a turtling max upgraded Terran mech build? Clearly the evidence suggests that it is very difficult to do so. Thus, the strategy is fairly hard to counter. Easy to execute, hard to counter, therefore there is a problem. | ||
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jamesr12
United States1549 Posts
On June 04 2010 04:49 Uthgar wrote: I don't want to disrespect players who are better than me, but I have to say I dislike this attitude. Its akin to that of a spoiled brat. You will never win if you believe you can't win. You may try a 100 games, maybe 200 games (which I doubt anyone here has even come close to doing), and still you can have a positive attitude and say maybe if I tweak this little timing here. I watch games of Broodwar and I see players do phenomenal things that I NEVER would have believed possible. NEVER. But they do them. They play 10 hours a day and they perfect little tiny things that we are too spoiled to do. They don't even think there is an option of asking for a balance change. They just do what they can. I am not saying mech isn't too strong. A setup terran army run by a smart player is a tough nut to crack. However,I defintely think the the majority of zerg advocating this are too passive early game. Why do Zerg HAVE to take a fast expo and eco up. Is it written law? Maybe take a later expo while making the terran's life miserable. I just think that it is far too early to contemplate fixes. Worry about perfecting your own play and then when you can come and say your play was divine in its perfection, and you still lost, we have a problem. terran walls almost everytime, this limits your options to 1 base drops, 1 base muta, 1 base baneling bust, 1 base nydus, all of these are basically all in so yeah FE is still the best option | ||
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shiftY803
200 Posts
Early game you have speedlings and maybe roaches, but the terran is walled off. There is no way to "make his life miserable." Or, you can go one base muta and expand later than usual (which is what I do alot of the time). That is slightly better, but also ends when they turret up and get a couple thors and some marines. At that point in the game, there is nothing major to "abuse." Someone correct me if I'm overlooking something. Once he expands, you have more options. Drops in his main while he defends natural, etc. I would not call that the early game though. Furthermore, as discussed at length, sensor towers, turrets, etc etc make this difficult as well. | ||
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Ecael
United States6703 Posts
Or, you can go one base muta and expand later than usual (which is what I do alot of the time). That is slightly better, but also ends when they turret up and get a couple thors and some marines. At that point in the game, there is nothing major to "abuse." Someone correct me if I'm overlooking something. By forcing them to thor and turret though, we do get the breather we need to expo, not to mention have mutes to fend off what harassment they might attempt. I don't know if we can call this abusing or exploiting anything though, it is just the natural way both sides kind of have to play. | ||
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Slipspace
United States381 Posts
Blizzard is making it abundantly clear with each patch that they want the Ultralisk to be the answer, despite how effective it might be. 90% of the arguments in this thread are completely committed to making roach/hydra work instead of some ultra/ling/infestor action, and hopefully TLO will show us some sweet games of this! | ||
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Martinni
Canada169 Posts
- Muta, Corruptor and Overseer. Use the corruptor's ability on the thor so it takes considerably more damage and then you chain contaminate the factory to stop any thor production. There's usually 2-3 turrets but it can be handled pretty easy. It does require a good amount of micro and a perfect unit combination (2-3 corruptor, 2 overseers with ~6 mutas, you make the corruptors and overseer before mutas so they have more energy when the push comes.) - Roach, Hydra and Infestor. Pretty straight forward you push before he gets too many tanks and thors. Use neural parasite to cut their army in half. Hydra are too often overlooked but with the help of roaches they do an insane amount of damage. Even if the Terran has some hellions the 3 range on roaches makes them alway go in front and buffer any kind of hellions fire instead of the hydras. Alternatively you can poke in the front with tunneling claws to see if he has detection in his base, if not he'll take some pretty heavy damage. Or just use the roach ability to unburrow under the tank and as they draw fire come in with hydras and infestor. - Fast broodlords. Nothing special just some roach and straight tech to broods. | ||
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Melt
Switzerland281 Posts
On June 04 2010 05:01 shiftY803 wrote: I think the only real thing that can be done early, assuming we are talking about the same thing here, is a baneling bust. That is a very all-in style though, and cannot be a standard build against T. But that is not a Strategy to win against mech because the opponent doesn't really has a mech army.. so it's not a way to balance this specific problem. But it makes a good point though; you need to win against mech by killing the enemy before he has mech... now thats imba  | ||
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Mr.E
United States434 Posts
On June 03 2010 09:27 dethrawr wrote: Its the same in SC1, if zerg lets terran get 200/200 mech zerg will lose. I don't think its really imbalanced, zerg needs to start using mech's immobility against them with nydus/doom drop play. Also your 'fix' would be awful :l Yes, heavily using drop tech (against any siege tank heavy army) and if you have room to breath, nydus canals. You just need to be fast enough and practice them enough to use them correctly. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
Well, and Broodlords. Broodlords are still sick good. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10866 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On June 04 2010 04:25 Trok67 wrote: yes I agree but i think there is no chance for blizzard to remove smart AI, theyve worked on it and they are proud of their new AI so i dont see them changing because of players feedback Assuming we are talking about the siege tanks, it's not smart AI - at least the explanation I got was that siege tank damage is instant now, so there's no target for the other tanks to shoot at by the time the first tanks have killed it. | ||
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Uthgar
United States21 Posts
On June 04 2010 04:59 SnakeChomp wrote: I disagree with your argument that we must play perfectly before we can decree that there is a problem. Blizzard uses a fairly straight forward system to determine when there is a problem and when there is not. Simply stated it is thus. "Any strategy should be as easy (or hard) to counter as it is to execute." How easy is it to turtle up as Terran with mech and get fully upgraded? Well, I play Zerg and not Terran so my opinion is biased, but I think it's fair to say that turtling is pretty easy in general. That implies that this strategy is fairly easy to execute. How hard is it for Zerg to attack a turtling max upgraded Terran mech build? Clearly the evidence suggests that it is very difficult to do so. Thus, the strategy is fairly hard to counter. Easy to execute, hard to counter, therefore there is a problem. I don't believe it is as easy as you think to have a perfect defense against everything a zerg can do in 10 minutes AND take your natural. Mech is not viable without an expo, so the terran need an expo. Several maps have more than one entrance to the base as well. There are many games where easy strategies are hard to counter, but it doesn't seem to muck the balance too much. Then again, the potency of those strategies is variable depending on the execution as well. | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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shiftY803
200 Posts
I don't believe it is as easy as you think to have a perfect defense against everything a zerg can do in 10 minutes AND take your natural. Mech is not viable without an expo, so the terran need an expo. Several maps have more than one entrance to the base as well. There are many games where easy strategies are hard to counter, but it doesn't seem to muck the balance too much. Then again, the potency of those strategies is variable depending on the execution as well. I think TLOs sling/infestor build is a perfect example of this. It can be a nightmare on maps like desert oasis and blistering sands, for obvious reasons. See the series versus NonY in HDH. On the other hand, he was unable to effectively use it against HuK on LT in a game I just watched last night. In case nobody has seen it, HuK basically fends off constant attempts to ling stab and a nidus worm attack, while teching to colossus. Once the colo is out, he pushes TLOs bases with unstoppable force. Lings do not counter zealots, sentries, and colossus. With no terrain to abuse (destructible rocks, long distance between main and natural, etc), the build basically depends on the opposing player making a blunder. A build that depends on the Toss opponent making a mistake [on certain maps] is probably not a good standard build. That is why I am extremely curious to see TLOs anti-mech strategy applied against Terran on a variety of maps. | ||
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Morayfire73
United States298 Posts
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Talic_Zealot
688 Posts
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EccoEcco
United States61 Posts
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On June 04 2010 04:49 Uthgar wrote: I don't want to disrespect players who are better than me, but I have to say I dislike this attitude. Its akin to that of a spoiled brat. Exactly. Pro players don't have that much swagger in this argument because they're still 1a-ing into opponent's armies. When is the last time you saw a pro player split his units up against siege tanks or mutas vs thors? Never. In a few months, we'll start to see that stuff emerge, but right now, nobody has the skill to do it. Even the pro-level players still have a lot of improvement to do before mistakes have been minimized enough to comment seriously on game balance. When not a single person on the game tries to split units up against tanks or thors it's hard to make judgments on the strength of mech. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
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