EPTHow to fix TvZ Mech - Page 6
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MoMaN-
France202 Posts
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Trok67
France384 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:53 Zozo wrote: Cause you can get 4 thors before 10 mutalisks right? You can't pull off 200/200 3/3 7 factories in 10 minutes. Let's not pretend it's NR20 If you watch the games you are going to see how vulnerable lz was while teching. haha, no against 10 mutalisk 1 thor with some marines or 2 thor will be enough. And if the terran see youre doing a ton of mutalisk, he'll himself make a ton of thors/viking. And since thors are also very good against ground there is no risk he will waste any money with that. | ||
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jusayO
Canada60 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Top players are NOT good balance designers. A lot of top players are biased one way or another most of the time. Did you see all of those Zerg players you listed advocating that ZvT lategame be fixed a few patches ago when TvZ was almost impossible late game? No, they were all pretty content to free win with 1a roache suicide-> remax 200 lategame. | ||
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Despotic
United States10 Posts
These people crying imba like its some broken matchup in need of drastic changes really serve no purpose. Another interesting idea could be to have burrowed units immune to splash, expanding upon burrowed subterfuge. With the recent improvements to roach tech, a spread of roaches could nullify an unmicroed siege line. | ||
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Zozo
Brazil2579 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:55 Trok67 wrote: haha, no against 10 mutalisk 1 thor with some marines or 2 thor will be enough. And if the terran see youre doing a ton of mutalisk, he'll himself make a ton of thors/viking. And since thors are also very good against ground there is no risk he will waste any money with that. Isn't that the whole point? make him waste gas on stuff other then tanks? Less tanks, stronger lings. | ||
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HavoK.
United States172 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:49 avilo wrote: Um, it's posts like yours that make ME lol. You are one of the stubborn crowd that you think you know everything about the game and have decided something is 100% undoubtedly imba when you do not even know how a nydus even works. Before you talk, try using the thing. It's a global tunnel network, like tunnels in zero hour. The main nydus network building, you can build multiple of, those are the only ones that matter if you lose all of the main ones, then the network is down. You put all of your units into any nydus worm or main network building and your units are available from any worm/nydus network on the map. It is global. You can unload from anywhere on the map. It's not a "cute" thing, it's something Zergs are not currently doing or abusing enough. Zerg players probably aren't doing this because if the T player is watching their base/s and has just a few units in the area its ineffective and most top players will probably do that. It doesn't seem to be a totally reliable since its relying on your opponent to make mistakes | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
And your solution is to basically...make the game feel like 1998 again and remove tank AI. Wow, this is on the same level as defending bnet 0.2 features. | ||
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:58 Despotic wrote: These people crying imba like its some broken matchup in need of drastic changes really serve no purpose. Another interesting idea could be to have burrowed units immune to splash, expanding upon burrowed subterfuge. With the recent improvements to roach tech, a spread of roaches could nullify an unmicroed siege line. A minor AI change is not a drastic change thats the entire point of this thread | ||
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Trok67
France384 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:58 Zozo wrote: Isn't that the whole point? make him waste gas on stuff other then tanks? Less tanks, stronger lings. no, firstly youre wasting way more ressource with mustalisk which will be completely useless since he has 2-3 thors and secondly he doesnt waste gaz at all since thor do pretty well against every zerg ground and air units. He will have less tank but more thors and you will definitely have a lot less of ground army | ||
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koppik
United States676 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:46 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Sheth and MoMan never really attacked until they had maxed out. Sheth never attacked QXC until about three minutes after he hit 200/200. So, "timing attack" is a pretty large window I think.Saying these kind of statements is telling people that they have to go for allins or timing attacks to beat mech and if you rush to broodlord corruptors you're open to timing attacks.. tell me how this is viable. | ||
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yarkO
Canada810 Posts
What about slowing the firing rate of tanks in Siege Mode? | ||
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
On June 03 2010 11:02 yarkO wrote: @Raelcun What about slowing the firing rate of tanks in Siege Mode? This causes issues in TvT and TvP with balance I don't want to do anything that will mess with the other matchups. | ||
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
On June 03 2010 11:02 yarkO wrote: @Raelcun What about slowing the firing rate of tanks in Siege Mode? we're not trying to break TvP and Tanks in small numbers would still be plenty of viable, even mech would be viable with the fix suggested.. it just would be more 'beatable' if you nerf the speed rate, tanks are gonna be taken out of the game ecuation and that's not what we're trying to do here edit: spot on Alan, answered at the same time XD | ||
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KMK
United States29 Posts
On June 03 2010 09:27 dethrawr wrote: Its the same in SC1, if zerg lets terran get 200/200 mech zerg will lose. I don't think its really imbalanced, zerg needs to start using mech's immobility against them with nydus/doom drop play. Also your 'fix' would be awful :l I agree sir. People need to actually get good and stop crying Imba on things they can't beat. For instance, today I saw ret's stream he jus got tunneling for roaches and massed them along with banelings vs mech. Then tunneled his little cute roaches on to Terran's mineral lines. After that it was gg. | ||
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MoMaN-
France202 Posts
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Zozo
Brazil2579 Posts
On June 03 2010 11:00 Trok67 wrote: no, firstly youre wasting way more ressource with mustalisk which will be completely useless since he has 2-3 thors and secondly he doesnt waste gaz at all since thor do pretty well against every zerg ground and air units. He will have less tank but more thors and you will definitely have a lot less of ground army And how is he going to move out if he has to leave his thors to defend scvs? build 20 turrets early game? If he does, then you will have way more forces. | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:56 avilo wrote: Also, I find it completely hilarious that rather than talking about how to counter it, or something more logical like many of the maps being too small and sensor towers being too good, you guys start spewing off your "let's list all the top player's opinions (none of whom seem to abuse nydus enough)." Top players are NOT good balance designers. A lot of top players are biased one way or another most of the time. Did you see all of those Zerg players you listed advocating that ZvT lategame be fixed a few patches ago when TvZ was almost impossible late game? No, they were all pretty content to free win with 1a roache suicide-> remax 200 lategame. Actually that is incorrect. General consensus pre-patch 11 was that Terran was weak which would entail some buffing. Distorting the past in order to descredit the idea that good players may know what is up because they disagree with you is not constructive, imo. Also, look at the players on that list. Do you honestly believe that if nydus worms were the answer idra, artosis or dimaga would not have figured it out by now? To me, that seems highly unlikely. | ||
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Gretorp
United States586 Posts
The problem is that the ease of getting there. Turtling is so much stronger because defensive tanks are just way too good, bunkers are at only an opportunity cost, ravens negate so much fire power, and thors make it unable for any air harass. Once you amass that huge army, you dictate how the game will turn out. If there are solo directions for you to push(steppes of war, lost temple) or not tons of expansions(blistering sands, scrap station), the terran army will win based on the push or attrition respectively. So theres two main ways to go about this. You either tone down the strength of the end game army and/or increase the zerg's strength, or make it harder to create that end game composition that is way too cost efficient. Making a tank more than 125 gas would seem ludicrous, or making thors more than 200 gas would be too, hence we need to address the dynamics of the strength of terran and zerg armies. Dialing down tanks again would be the best choice. the zerg should either have 1 food, and terran has concentrated attack damage, or vice versa, but not the extremes. I think taking away tank splash how it is now would make the game better. TvT would be much more playable, pvt wouldn't be such a mystery as turtling really hard as terran wouldn't be as strong, making more exciting matches, and tvz would give roaches a more assertive role. However, at a theoretical standpoint, it cannot be refuted that terran MECH vs zerg is highly imbalanced and needs to be significantly changed. | ||
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Wayra
195 Posts
I also think that helions are too week, infernal lighter should come already upgraded. Biological units that get hit are on fire. While on fire, it cannot attack. Units on fire slowly dies. In addition, units that are on fire can spread the flames to adjacent units and structures. I think that will add an interesting aspect to the micro for zergs. Have the helions a larger spread or least attack faster. But that would make it slightly imba, so maybe scratch the last idea. Instead have helions fire do extra dmg buildings. I mean it makes sense cause fire should destroy buildings. Oh and protoss voidrays are wayyyy too imbalanced, have it's range nerf to 2, and make it slower than the viking by .2112 | ||
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show me a replay of you killing 3/4 thors with mutas with your AWSOME mutas micro. I just can't wait to see that :D
