EPTMy Thoughts on EG/Puma - Page 13
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h-a-r-v
Poland30 Posts
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Luepert
United States1933 Posts
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
On July 23 2011 00:03 h-a-r-v wrote: With all due respect TLO. As much as I love you - what you're saying is bullshit. A leak-article pops out, gets translated, but it's a LEAK - Puma isn't signed yet, they DID WANT to talk to the coaches, they got caught off guard as the process was still ongoing. Not sure about your business experience but you're presenting some utopian views on how they should have handled it. MAYBE they could do better, maybe faster, but the player acquisition doesn't look shady at all as well as the whole mess isn't their fault - shit like that's gonna happen as long as various media keep leaking inaccurate info before things actually happen and before official statements of both parties are presented. They rushed to the coach with breaking news before EG did and created unnecessary drama. It's just low.I wouldn't blame Milkies but he could at least add that 'it's not confirmed' or something. I run a portal site where we translate A LOT of stuff everyday and we are aware of the consequences of our translations. We tell people how it is when something's uncertain, we can distinguish between what's real and official and what's a rumor. I still don't blame him (neither did Alex) but I totally get Alex's point of view. It's not even a real leak... Puma informs TSL that he leaves for EG. EG didn't tell TSL to not say anything about it til day x. TSL reveals that the release Puma because he is going to EG. Where exactly did the leak happen? EG is not the one who decides when TSL makes things public, and given the way they approached Puma they could be very sure that TSL wouldn't be considerate and should have prepared accordingly. And what's about this stuff of it not being confirmed or just being a rumour? TSL Headcoach Lee is a super credible source and nothing he said turned out to be wrong (except for maybe the technicality that PuMa didn't sign the contract yet) I really find it amusing that there is always this notion of having the community having "utopian" ideas about how e-sports business should work but at the same time a few managers seem to have even more utopian ideas how e-sports media should work. | ||
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DarkSider
Romania66 Posts
Puma's skill = high Puma's income = low Puma's contract = questionable/inexistent Dream world: Hi TSL coach, i'm interested in getting one of your best players, how about .. Puma ? TSL coach: Yeah dude, let me talk to him about it, i so want to get rid of this highly skilled player that i underpay. I doubt he will want 3k $ a month and the oportunity to see the world, travel around for your team and play in big tournaments around the world. I think he will stay here for $500 a month, train all day and play against the toughest oponents in this 2 tournaments. But i'll give it a try anyway .. you never know. Real world: Hi TSL coach, i'm interested in getting one of your best players ... TSL coach: GTFO The way to do it is: Yo Puma ! Check this Bling bling ! You want some ? I think you deserve this (...) Interested ? How's with your current contract ? I have to buy you from anybody ? Ok. Sign this and your ass is mine. If your team has players who's skill is just too high for the current income tie them down with a contract. How on earth would TSL give away their ace player if EG contacted their manager instead ? | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught. I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team. | ||
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johanhar
Norway24 Posts
 If Puma had a contract I'm sure EG never would try to "steal" him. Good for Puma, that someone out there wants to give him a contract. I dont think you guy realize how though it is to be a korean sc2 gamer. Still BW is bigger, that is because of things like this (teams, sponsors etc).. | ||
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Keldory
United States65 Posts
EG may have some good and entertaining players but it really tarnishes their reputations (at least, those who don't tarnish it themselves) to have shit like this happen way too frequently for a professional SC team. | ||
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Mycl
Australia1370 Posts
On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I don't think Alex Garfield would be perfectly ok if another team was recruiting an EG player without Scott Smith (SirScoots) knowing about it. Presumably Garfield would blame Smith for not having a tight enough leash on his players. I suppose Garfield would claim that he would have no ill feelings toward the recruiting team but I find that hard to believe. He knows what a manager's role is, no matter if it's Korean culture or American culture. He knows that when a manager gets bypassed, things have gotten fucked up. You can blame the manager and player, and you can also blame the recruiter who knows exactly what he's doing when bypassing the manager. In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught. I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team. Good to see you are so informed in the inner workings of the TSL team that your aware of the discussions between Puma, his team mates and his coach. Can we get a transcript? User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43400 Posts
On July 22 2011 22:57 ct2299 wrote: Because 40% of the people here are carebears and the other 40% of the people here don't know professional sports and so they don't realize this is rather common. Let's not even mention in other professions where being approached by headhunters is perfectly normal as well. Then there's the 20% normal people who realize this is perfectly fine and not wrong at all, given Puma wasn't under contract (from what I've read) and he accepted the terms to join EG, no one forced him at gunpoint. This is still a business people, the pro gamers don't play solely to entertain you. EDIT: Also forgot to mention that hidden among this angry mob are EG/IdrA haters who just want to see EG's reputation go down. I pretty much agree with you here. While any PR after the signing of Puma may not have been handled perfectly, there was nothing inherently wrong or underhanded about EG asking Puma to join them. They didn't have to ask TSL's permission, or even give them a heads up. That's really not how businesses and contracts work; it's not like asking mommy and daddy for a playdate. | ||
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NonY
8748 Posts
On July 23 2011 00:11 johanhar wrote: This is how sports work... if lets say a fotball player was under some team with no contract or salary, then it would be ok (in the "real" world of sports) to just contact the player directly No, it's not. In sports, a free agent is known by everyone to be a free agent. In the SC2 scene, any player can decide for himself when he wants to be a free agent and he can tell as many or as few people as he wants. The solution is not just having a contract. The solution is having a contract and having a governing body to enforce some rules on how players and teams interact with each other. The whole contract discussion within this issue is irrelevant bullshit. | ||
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h-a-r-v
Poland30 Posts
TBO: as above + yeah, EG might talk to the coach first but... Puma wasn't signed with TSL, thus he was deciding for himself in that case and his choice is all that matters here. The fact Koreans didn't sign anyone is their problem and apparently Puma didn't benefit from that and didn't feel bonded to them enough to send EG to the coach first when approached. We talk 'bout e-sports, not the Shaolin Temple. No one had to go to the master and talk about his disciple. | ||
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NonY
8748 Posts
On July 23 2011 00:16 Mycl wrote: Good to see you are so informed in the inner workings of the TSL team that your aware of the discussions between Puma, his team mates and his coach. Can we get a transcript? What the fuck is this? If you doubt something I said, point it out. If you're trying to write a joke, it's not funny. You just come off as an ignorant asshole. | ||
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crackcc
114 Posts
On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I don't think Alex Garfield would be perfectly ok if another team was recruiting an EG player without Scott Smith (SirScoots) knowing about it. Presumably Garfield would blame Smith for not having a tight enough leash on his players. I suppose Garfield would claim that he would have no ill feelings toward the recruiting team but I find that hard to believe. He knows what a manager's role is, no matter if it's Korean culture or American culture. He knows that when a manager gets bypassed, things have gotten fucked up. You can blame the manager and player, and you can also blame the recruiter who knows exactly what he's doing when bypassing the manager. In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught. I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team. I agree, for 1 EG would have reacted the same way Lee did so they shouldnt act suprised he is disapointed/mad. 2. Of course it would have been better if they would have talked to the manager but then the deal would NEVER HAVE HAPPEND ! If ever the managers had wind that some team was offering a better deal to their player they would have done EXACTLY what they are doing now '' Crysis-mode-everybody-signs-a-contract''. And Puma would still be with TSL without a salary but with a binding contract making it harder for him to leave.3. I totally agree that Puma should take some blame. People seem to forget the choice was ultimatly his. He also was the one that said ( according to EG ) '' Let me talk to Lee ''. Leaving EG to beleive (naively) that the coach would just be totally fine letting go of a player he invested in and trained. | ||
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EnderCraft
United States1746 Posts
On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I don't think Alex Garfield would be perfectly ok if another team was recruiting an EG player without Scott Smith (SirScoots) knowing about it. Presumably Garfield would blame Smith for not having a tight enough leash on his players. I suppose Garfield would claim that he would have no ill feelings toward the recruiting team but I find that hard to believe. He knows what a manager's role is, no matter if it's Korean culture or American culture. He knows that when a manager gets bypassed, things have gotten fucked up. You can blame the manager and player, and you can also blame the recruiter who knows exactly what he's doing when bypassing the manager. In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught. I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team. It sounds as if TSL's hold on its players is shoddy at best. You have to remember, Puma was under no official contract on TSL, so he was free pickings by EG's standards. However I do agree with you Tyler, it is bullshit to act all apologetic when the obvious thing to do was approach TSL in a professional manner and explain that they were taking an interest in one of their players. Just on a side note, Korean teams need to start securing their players. Starcraft 2 isn't like Broodwar where Korean players can just "join a team" and be done with it. There needs to be some sort of contracting going on, especially with new foreign involvement within the Korean scene. | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10349 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43400 Posts
On July 23 2011 00:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote: No, it's not. In sports, a free agent is known by everyone to be a free agent. In the SC2 scene, any player can decide for himself when he wants to be a free agent and he can tell as many or as few people as he wants. The solution is not just having a contract. The solution is having a contract and having a governing body to enforce some rules on how players and teams interact with each other. The whole contract discussion within this issue is irrelevant bullshit. Won't the team he left take him off the roster and make some sort of announcement, like we see all the time on TL threads? How do SC2 free agents *hide* the fact that they're free agents from everyone except for a select few? It seems like everyone would know, just like in other sports. | ||
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Condor Hero
United States2931 Posts
On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I don't think Alex Garfield would be perfectly ok if another team was recruiting an EG player without Scott Smith (SirScoots) knowing about it. Presumably Garfield would blame Smith for not having a tight enough leash on his players. I suppose Garfield would claim that he would have no ill feelings toward the recruiting team but I find that hard to believe. He knows what a manager's role is, no matter if it's Korean culture or American culture. He knows that when a manager gets bypassed, things have gotten fucked up. You can blame the manager and player, and you can also blame the recruiter who knows exactly what he's doing when bypassing the manager. In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught. I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team. Yup people are saying Puma is 19 and therefore an adult but if he was really smart and going to leave TSL like this then he should've at least looked at other foreign teams. A team like FXO, who just bought an entire Korean team, couldn't have done at least as much if not more for him than EG? | ||
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Mycl
Australia1370 Posts
On July 23 2011 00:20 Liquid`Tyler wrote: What the fuck is this? If you doubt something I said, point it out. If you're trying to write a joke, it's not funny. You just come off as an ignorant asshole. My comments are more directed when you went off on a tangent talking about what Puma SHOULD have said to his coach. Maybe as you say it he was a man and stood up and said I am quitting to join up with a foreigner team of my choice | ||
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Pr0spect
Sweden32 Posts
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NonY
8748 Posts
On July 23 2011 00:19 h-a-r-v wrote: Tyler: I think Alex takes that into account. They've been running the team for long enough to know that. Would they be happy? Hell no. But I'm sure they know how it's like and probably that's why they have good relationships with their players as he talked about + keep them satisfied enough with their contract covenants. And I agree, was just about to reply that to TBO btw. - I would reserve some blame for Puma. The kid should have kept his mouth shut and let the team do the talking. TBO: as above + yeah, EG might talk to the coach first but... Puma wasn't signed with TSL, thus he was deciding for himself in that case and his choice is all that matters here. I didn't hear Alex take it into account when he was on WoC. The impression I got was like I said: purposely do the wrong thing for your own benefit, get caught, feign ignorance, apologize. It's either that or, if you want to believe everything he says: do a thing you think is acceptable, find out it's not acceptable, apologize. The read on the situation depends on whether you think Alex knew beforehand that what he was doing wasn't proper. I think he did know. | ||
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