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On July 23 2011 00:39 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:38 ptbl wrote:
Also, it's not only Team Liquid that is coming out against EG's actions. Fnatic and FXOpen have come out against EG. I'm sure their are other teams that I have missed. I think that this is important to note too. Everyone deeply involved in the community disagrees with how EG handled things. Managers, owners, players of other teams and its not because they are "EG haters".
That is because those teams chose to work with korea instead of trying to impose their business practices on korea. Whatever the response from the korean teams is to this situation you can probably thank those teams that it will be much more measured than had this been their first contact with a foreign team.
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On July 23 2011 00:42 Pr0spect wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:30 EnderCraft wrote:On July 23 2011 00:24 Pr0spect wrote:
I think I have to disagree on almost everything TLO and Tyler have said about the issue, and just to look at it from a business aspect it's TSL's fault for not having him signed? And obviously Puma wanted to leave it's not like they've kidnapped him by force like most seem to be implying. You must understand, players in Korea have never before had to be signed to a contract in order to join a team. It is only recently since there has been more Korean/foreign team involvement that it has really become an issue. I mean if they'd like to survive on a global market they should adapt, rather than the whole world adapting to them just cause of their "culture", I think that card have been played out by now.
that card has been played out, 25 hours after the first time it came up.
really?
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Tyler: Puma was free to go (see my edited / supplemented reply to TBO above). I don't wanna play EG's advocate, 'cause we'll never know for sure. I'm just saying I found Alex's explanations entirely valid. IMO they just wanted to finish the process and tell community the good news (together with TSL once they talked to them in person). It turned to be bad news and it's not good for them like at all - I don't think they would purposely risk their reputation. At least I - as a manager - if I knew I'm doing something improper - would assume I won't get away with that in the Internet era. I don't know the guy but he doesn't sound unreasonable to me, he seem to know how this business works, but I can only assume that. Yet, I repeat - Puma wasn't signed. They weren't obliqued to talk to anyone but Puma himself and that's exactly what they did. Koreans might find it hard to swallow as they hoped to run teams without contracts and salaries (?) apparently. But it's Puma who went away, EG just gave him a place to go. During Weapon of Choice I tweeted Wheat and Milkies that in the end it's his choice (and we wasn't 'stolen') and nothing else matters.So when Wheat later said it's all about the player, 'Amen' was all I could tweet back. If you wasn't on Liquid, wouldn't get paid and stuff, you'd just hang out and practice with them hoping one day in some uncertain future it's gonna become something real, would you stand by that when offered something real right here right now? Would you find people offering you that evil or genius?
That being said, I honestly can't see EG's fault anywhere here. They just probably didn't predict the repercussions of such western approach when dealing with Koreans to whom SC is more like martial arts rather than fighting sports.
I don't think Puma's 'coach' should be approached in the first place. I'm sorry  Maybe that would be a good thing to do to prevent the drama, but that wouldn't change anything else really. He would still don't like the decision and felt hurt Puma - his disciple - is leaving, as he thinks he created him. He probably wouldn't be able to do anything about that as well and could only wish him luck (as he did). So.. talking to the 'coach' first - good move. No talking to him - not a bad one.
BTW: Wish you best at Anaheim - along with White-Ra you're the only Protosses I deeply root for.
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On  July 23 2011 00:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:19  Liquid`Tyler wrote:On July 23 2011 00:11 johanhar wrote:This iS how sports work... if lets say a fotball player was under some team with no contract or salary, then it would be OK (in the "  ReaL" world of sports) to just contact the player directly No, it's not. In sports, a free agent iS known by everyone to be a free agent. In the SC2 scene, any player can decide for himself when he wants to be a free agent and he can tell as many or as few people as he wants. The solution iS not just having a contract. The solution iS having a contract and having a governing body to enforce some rules on how players and teams interact with each other. The whole contract discussion within this Issue iS irrelevant bullshit. Won't the team he left take him off the roster and make some sort of announcement, like we see all the time on TL threads? How do SC2 free agents *hide* the fact that they're free agents from everyone except for a SeleCT few? It seems like everyone would know, just like in other sports.
You know who was a free agent? Genius
He was on NEX for a while, and then he ended up with a different name showing that he WASN'T with NEX, and then he gets grabbed up by MVP. We knew he was a free agent because every game we saw when he didn't have NEX on his name, Tastosis told us "he's not on a team".
I didn't see that from PuMa. PuMa wore TSL's banner, no one ever said "Oh, PuMa's not on a team", PuMa played in the damn GSTL and not under the ringer rule either. Contract or no contract, PuMa was in TSL.
Edit:
Oh my gawd doing TLPD button stuff is so cool. Edit#2 - Also a little retarded.
On July 23 2011 00:42 Pr0spect wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:30 EnderCraft wrote:On July 23 2011 00:24 Pr0spect wrote:
I think I have to disagree on almost everything TLO and Tyler have said about the issue, and just to look at it from a business aspect it's TSL's fault for not having him signed? And obviously Puma wanted to leave it's not like they've kidnapped him by force like most seem to be implying. You must understand, players in Korea have never before had to be signed to a contract in order to join a team. It is only recently since there has been more Korean/foreign team involvement that it has really become an issue. I mean if they'd like to survive on a global market they should adapt, rather than the whole world adapting to them just cause of their "culture", I think that card have been played out by now.
Ok, that's fine. Korea needs to get jaded. Is this the right way to get them jaded? By showing them that EG can't be trusted, that foreigners are courting players without going to managers, that they can't trust their own "family"?
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On July 23 2011 00:33 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:30 TheStonerer wrote:
I doubt they have been apologetic like Tyler said, since Garfield clearly said in Weapon of Choice that if he could do it differently he said no, he wouldn't.
On the point of having a player in his team being recruiting by another organization, that point was addressed as well in Weapon of Choice.
I have one question Tyler, did you listen/watch the episode? Just want to know if i should point you to it for answers on some points of your post. Yes of course I listened to it, but I also have listened to what AG and EG have said in public countless other times, and there have been countless lies and deceptions and mistruths. Perhaps I didn't point out how many points we have to distrust AG on in order to accept my read on the situations but that's a really tiresome process and people are just going to be split on siding with AG/EG if they're ignorant of their history of lies or siding with me if they trust me and/or aren't ignorant of their history of lies.
Well i would take the fact you say he has told lies before (i didn't follow the eg/tl thing the other time quite as closely as this) into account, but unless some insider source tells otherwise, he knows his own team better than any of us here. And because he tells lies on occasions, doesn't mean he lies about everything. Though, i understand that you are more closely involved in the sc2 business (emotionally in regards to Alex Garfield?) and have a different view of all this.
EDIT: Damn people post faster than i can follow with all the talk...
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On July 23 2011 00:36 crackcc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:30 TheStonerer wrote:
I doubt they have been apologetic like Tyler said, since Garfield clearly said in Weapon of Choice that if he could do it differently he said no, he wouldn't.
On the point of having a player in his team being recruiting by another organization, that point was addressed as well in Weapon of Choice.
I have one question Tyler, did you listen/watch the episode? Just want to know if i should point you to it for answers on some points of your post. Thats the thing what could they have done differently that wouldnt have resulted in TSL locking down their players with contracts ? It could only have been worse as Puma may still have wanted to leave making him breach his contract and making EG/Puma even worse. Unfortunately this is the only way to buy a star player whether it be in Esports or just sports. I also think that koreans are hiding behind their culture to get away with certain things and keep korea pretty much safe from the things that are STANDARD for all other teams ! Its like the indians taking offence because someone took a player from them without paying a bribe to team/coach/staff/league etc as is customary for them.
PuMa could have just decided not to sign if the TSL staff decided to turn over and sign everyone, thats beyond the point.
Just cause one thing is standard for your culture, doesnt mean its standard everywhere and should be defined as standard. Not signing players is a Korean standard and when they look at us were doing something exceptional (as in being an exception to the standard)
The fact of the matter is the EG staff knew how it worked in Korea, decided not to give a crap, didnt prepare any statement when they knew a shitstorm was coming, decided to finally issue a shitty statement where they basically say nothign on their own biased show, and closed it off by blaming a totally unafiliated community member so people talk less about them and find another subject. This is pure hypocrisy, and totally unprofessional.
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LOL @ all the low-post trolls having their day in this thread behind "professional business and free agency in sports" talk. You know, I think TLO talked more about the EG's stance and attitude in WoC rather than whether Puma's move was legal/illegal.
It's okay. Keep it coming, you're making my day.
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100percent agree with TLO. It pains me to say it but EG seems to be the "bully" of the starcraft 2 community
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Well said... I don't know how they've managed to crawl out of it each time when they have been accused of something.
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What bothers me the most is the damage control EG does. I feel like its just a weak response to go on one of Wheat's shows and just talk about an hour to justify themselves. Just give out an apology to TSL and take the criticism.
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Can I just say it's good to have a community where these things can be shared and discussed?
Of course I can!
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On July 23 2011 00:57 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
Well said... I don't know how they've managed to crawl out of it each time when they have been accused of something.
EG makes their money from sponsors. I would assume nothing they have done so far has grabbed the attention of their sponsors in a negative way, otherwise EG or one of their players wouldn't be doing something controversial every other week.
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My understanding is that the only thing EG are being accused of is talking directly to Puma rather than to the TSL manager, so lets keep this in context.
If I am the TSL manager, and somebody approaches me expressing interest in one of my best players, what do you think my motivations and responses are going to be? For sure I am going to want to make sure that Puma stays with my organisation, and I am unlikely to communicate EGs interest in him to Puma.
Does Puma have the right to talk to other teams about what they have to offer? How else is he going to know whether the deal he is recieving at his current team is fair? One thing is clear. Information and communications must be free flowing between all parties to ensure nobody is taken advantage of.
Now, Puma plays for TSL, and EG are interested in Puma. Who is responsible for keeping TSL informed? In my opinion EG have no current relationship with TSL, so they are not bound to keep them informed. Puma is obligated as he is part of the team. EG could represent Puma in a approach to TSL, but they are not obliged to because they have no commitments to TSL.
This deals with the moral aspects of what occured, however there has been a larger discussion stared as to contracts with players and what their obligations are. In this instance Puma was not under contract, but some may say that he was morally obliged to act as though he was because TSL looked after him in some ways. However, what would happen to Puma if he suddenly became a much worse player? There must be many players in Korea who don't make the grade, and suddenly the teams don't support them and they are left with nothing. At present if a team does not contract a player they still gain all the benefit that a contract would provide, but they have none of the obligations.
Proffesional SC2 is becoming a big global business, so if people across the world are going to have a clear understanding of what their commitments are, and also what they are getting in return, then is must be written down in the form of a contract. Word of mouth and gentlemens agreements just won't cut it.
The end of WoC was an absolute disaster for EGAlex. Milkis is free to express his opinion on whatever he likes. As a member of TL EGAlex is also free to comment on TL. If EG feel that they are being slandered by inaccurate factual information, then I imagine they can contact TL admin or follow a legal route if it is a constant issue. These things are absolutely plain and straightforward.
The issue of player contracts and how these might work is a subject for discussion here, but I would just say that there are obvious successful models in other professional sports which should be followed in E-sports to prevent drama.
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I'm just really curious the plans EG has for Puma. Since the way the handled the situation cost him quite a bit in Korea. So if they plan on having him stay there he now lacks very talented practice partners, and quite possibly will only have to rely on Korean ladder. So if they want him to be an EG mercenary and fly him out to foreigner tournaments, I don't see him being able to compete with the ones other companies bring in.
Alex was very wrong about other teams not having the right approach with Korea. FXO for example helping a team there and making them an FXO team. Or SK for picking up MC and Nada for foreigner events. EG lacks roots in Korea to continue giving Puma the practice he needs to continue putting up the results that they want. You cant upset the locals there because the foreigner scene is bigger, when you want their players. Then again the reputation of EG in Korea was already tarnished with how Idra represented them while he was there.
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On July 22 2011 23:09 infinitestory wrote:
I don't think this mindset is just the trappings of the old BW days which should be discarded. I think teams should head forward with a spirit of global cooperation rather than businesslike competition.
EDIT: In any case, I think TLO has said it pretty brilliantly (albeit at some points a bit vindictively).
in what fantasy world do you live in that teams in other professional sports cooperate with each other?? The only time that happens is when the owners are trying to fuck the players out of pay through a lockout. Otherwise, teams are cuthroat in each and every way imaginable in every sport on the planet.
On July 22 2011 23:27 Vansetsu wrote:
Were my e-sports sneakers made by a 4 year old in a sweatshop? Geez, maybe I wont support that anymore. Harsh metaphor, but I'm tired and it makes the point.
if anything, EG makes it less of a 'sweatshop' (as stupid as that comparison is) by giving him a definite and higher salary instead of some kind of verbal agreement that's really only enforcable through stern looks by angry managers and angry netizens.
On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
And then he should talk to every foreigner team.
While it would be better for puma from a business standpoint if he did so to drive up his asking price, why should he have to (assuming that's what you're getting at)?
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While it would be better for puma from a business standpoint if he did so to drive up his asking price, why should he have to (assuming that's what you're getting at)?
He is not saying he has to, but doing that would clearly be in his best interest over just going to EG, since like you pointed out even if he ends up going to EG it will potentially be for a higher price. The point is EG basically took advantage of the fact that Puma didn't know any better and nobody advised him properly.
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During the first part of WoC i though it was just some misscommunication and they relied upon Puma to talk to his manager. By the end i though EG and screwed up and were pissed they got caught at it. Irregardless of if they felt bad or intended for it to go bad they were not feeling bad cause they screwed up they felt bad cause they got caught at it
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I would like to give TBO my voice... he writes exactly what I think... it's scary Oo
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On July 23 2011 00:54 OpticalShot wrote:
LOL @ all the low-post trolls having their day in this thread behind "professional business and free agency in sports" talk. You know, I think TLO talked more about the EG's stance and attitude in WoC rather than whether Puma's move was legal/illegal.
It's okay. Keep it coming, you're making my day.
This this this this this so much. Seriously the people that are still riding the "contracting/moral" stuff are saying the same shit a thousand other people have thought and said since the second it was released. Even Tyler said "ignoring the contract bullshit." Those are simply rules that haven't been formulated yet, but probably will be now. Who cares. Logistics. It's EG's constant PR fiascos and (eventual) handling of the situation that this whole thread is even about. Only one single time did TLO (in the OP) mention "EG approaching TSL", in a single sentence, and he simply said that's obviously how this got started, not whether or not it was right or wrong by any side.
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On July 23 2011 01:10 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +While it would be better for puma from a business standpoint if he did so to drive up his asking price, why should he have to (assuming that's what you're getting at)? He is not saying he has to, but doing that would clearly be in his best interest over just going to EG, since like you pointed out even if he ends up going to EG it will potentially be for a higher price. The point is EG basically took advantage of the fact that Puma didn't know any better and nobody advised him properly.
Quite heavy statements there, so you're saying that you know for a fact that Puma lacks the ability to think for himself, and that he lacks the knowledge about anything involving this, and that he didn't get advised by anyone?
I'd like to see some sources to back that up, rather than saying things you have no clue about just to put EG in a negative light.
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EPT
