After reading up on all the drama about Puma, EG definitely lived up to the adjective in their name, the second part, not so much.
Every time something like this happens it makes me happy that I am in Liquid. After what has happened, there is no way I could ever join a team that pulls off stuff like EG. No matter how much they would offer.
"I don't want to get on a high horse" but if you think a playxp article hurts your international brand, then it is your own job to present your side of the story, not the one of a volunteer translator. The fact is, EG took more than 18 hours for a statement and they want people to just ignore a korean article - sorry but thats a naive and utopian view of how the world works.
The alternative to Milkis translation would have been people posting inaccurate google translations which could have presented statements wrongly and as such bear a way higher risk to unfairly harm both TSL and EG.
And don't even try to argue you didn't attack Milkis about this on Weapon of Choice. There is this wonderful thing called "context" and saying "I don't want to sound accusatory" does not rescue you. In addition to that, Milkis is being called out for bias as he works for TL. But whenever a controversial topic comes up, EG representatives go on shows backed by their sponsors/managers.
The news went out before you wanted it and guess what it's because you didn't talk to TSL. Even though they had weeks after NASL to do so. If you act sly at least be prepared that others won't be happy about it and have damage control ready.
EG keeps acting morally questionably, without really caring about consequences towards third parties. Yet as soon as something doesnt fit into their plans they call people out for being unprofessional.
If they want to play the bad boys, they should at least be able to deal with the criticism, however EG seems to demand high morale standard from everyone but themselves.
Thank you TLO these are pretty much my thoughts on the situation but summed up way more nicely, its about time some high ranked members of the community called them out.
Good write-up and I respect your opinion, but I totally disagree with your assessment TLO. We will have to just disagree on this one. Still love ya though!
I love this. "Every time something like this happens it makes me happy that I am in Liquid. After what has happened, there is no way I could ever join a team that pulls off stuff like EG. No matter how much they would offer."
Makes me happy to know my favourite player cares about stuff like this. ^_^
On July 22 2011 20:22 TheButtonmen wrote: Always glad to see the pros taking the time to interact with the community, disagree with you here but most importantly of all good luck at the WCG!
What do you disagree with the OP? I'm just curious and would like to know.
On July 22 2011 20:22 TheButtonmen wrote: Always glad to see the pros taking the time to interact with the community, disagree with you here but most importantly of all good luck at the WCG!
What do you disagree with the OP? I'm just curious and would like to know.
My thoughts can be found here, if you have any other questions shoot me a PM I don't really want to bring my arguments about this spilling over into TLO's blog.
On July 22 2011 20:22 TheButtonmen wrote: Always glad to see the pros taking the time to interact with the community, disagree with you here but most importantly of all good luck at the WCG!
What do you disagree with the OP? I'm just curious and would like to know.
He doesn't really give an opinion on EG buying puma and instead just rants about what happened afterwards.
On July 22 2011 20:22 TheButtonmen wrote: Always glad to see the pros taking the time to interact with the community, disagree with you here but most importantly of all good luck at the WCG!
What do you disagree with the OP? I'm just curious and would like to know.
He doesn't really give an opinion on EG buying puma and instead just rants about what happened afterwards.
Again I made myself clear here if you want to argue I'll be glad to answer PMs but I really don't want to do it here okay?
On July 22 2011 20:29 Sebzou wrote: So EG's main mistake was giving Puma some control of the situation? By doing this they offended Coach Lee?
If Lee is so close to the members of his team, wouldn't he perfer hearing things directly from his guys than having some team call him saying they want his player?
I understand why Puma wanted to be the one to tell Lee about his plans to move to another team. The poor guy wanted to do things in the way i atleast feel was the nicest way to go about it, and as a result he is stuck in the middle of a shitstorm like this.
The kid deserves far better than this.
not sure if it was a mistake but why did you post this same text on the Puma Topic (where it is relevant) and also here on this blog (where it is not relevant, which you might see yourself you had read the text)
I want to point out that when they "got" their CS team from compLexity a few years back it was almost the identical situation... they contacted players that weren't under contract (CGS had just died, col hadn't gotten back their franchise yet even), skipped the organization that had made the players and convinced the players to join EG instead because coL didn't have any big sponsors at that time because of CGS.
I was sort of fine about the situation until I heard Alex on WOC... He made me quite disturbed. And my personal feeling was that he is "taking advantage" of those who can't particularly look out for themselves....
I feel sorry for Puma to be in the middle of this, because he is being taken advantage of.
The players association is going to tighten up now. There may be a risk of Koreans not going to foreign events or something along those lines.
As I have said before, we should all love korea, because without korea starcraft is just a hobby.
Well Dario... There is absolutely no surprise on having so many fans... not just your play, even your way of thinking is simply great. Totally agree, this was an arrogant and unfair move by EG.
I agree with you TLO, my favorite team is EG but unprofessional behavior like this really hurts the growth of e-sports. In "real" sports this is not accepted at all. Not even in non professional low level divisions.
On July 22 2011 20:29 Sebzou wrote: So EG's main mistake was giving Puma some control of the situation? By doing this they offended Coach Lee?
If Lee is so close to the members of his team, wouldn't he perfer hearing things directly from his guys than having some team call him saying they want his player?
I understand why Puma wanted to be the one to tell Lee about his plans to move to another team. The poor guy wanted to do things in the way i atleast feel was the nicest way to go about it, and as a result he is stuck in the middle of a shitstorm like this.
The kid deserves far better than this.
not sure if it was a mistake but why did you post this same text on the Puma Topic (where it is relevant) and also here on this blog (where it is not relevant, which you might see yourself you had read the text)
It was an accident actually. I have far to many tabs open and i've slept far too little. First i wrote it in the GSTL thread. And after that i sorta messed things up a bit. I can hardly even read at this point xD guess it would be best if i removed it from this one eh? ^_^ Sorry about that =/
On July 22 2011 20:38 FXOpen wrote: As I have said before, we should all love korea, because without korea starcraft is just a hobby.
I'd love a chance to hear industry insiders such as yourself discuss what Koreas role in the SC2 scene is and how you see it changing in the future as to the newer generation such as myself that weren't part of BW Korea has never been the corner stone of the E-sports scenes growth; it's been dominated by the Western scene.
Edit: To clarify what i meant as that's incredibly long winded;
Have you / other people in your role ever written anything about the role of Korea in the SC2 scene, it's future and its current state in a way that people could understand without a history with BW?
The thing that's bothering me is people keep talking about things as "this is how business" works, as if it's some ruthless race-to-the-bottom in terms of ethics in pursuit of money. This may be how a lot of business works, but it's not a good long-term strategy, especially when everyone has a mutual interest in growing a market. All that happens there is you end up with a monopoly or duopoly, and the only people who gain from it are the direct financial benefactors of those teams. Everyone else loses out including the fans, players, tournaments, and other teams.
At the end of the day, your aim as a business is always going to be making money, but it's still nice to be able to look at yourself in the morning.
Based on my knowledge of the series of events, I don't really think EG did anything wrong in regards to TSL, since EG is just trying to do everything they can to improve (and recruiting is part of that) ad it seems Puma wanted to tell his coach himself. However, EG's PR choices following the miscommunication on Coach Lee's/Puma's end were not the best.
They did not make themselves look good by waiting so long to release a statement or talk about it at all until the Weapon of Choice debacle. Instead of calmly and rationally explaining their position, they had Alex Garfield aggressively assert their position and went out of his way to attack Milkis, further alienating the community.
The fact that this isn't the first time a miscommunication has occurred with EG and it seems to be something of a recurring trend, I think EG management needs to re-evaluate how they interact with the community in regards to their actions.
EDIT: To tie it into TLO's position, I guess my view isn't entirely compatible with his, but I completely respect his position. TLO's response is intelligent and well thought-out (as to be expected from him) but I do disagree on a few points. I would argue that their actions haven't necessarily been wrong, but just kind of stupid from a PR standpoint.
This is why TL will always be my favorite SC2 team. EG just seems like they're always up to shady shit. I've never felt like rooting for them, and I never will.
I've been taking the stance that this was a smart business move by EG, and I still feel that way, but after listening to Alex Garfield on Weapon of Choice last night, and listening to him on ITG a few weeks ago talking about the iNcontroL/SotG controversy, it really seems like that's all he is - business. If they want to make a statement to the community or explain their position, they should have someone like Scoots do it, who the community as a whole loves.
Alex Garfield, in both "discussions", seemed arrogant, unapologetic and, frankly, cold. I felt very uncomfortable for Milkis, and it definitely seemed like Alex was defending himself by attacking Milkis because he was the only person in the room that didn't share the same opinion.
I'm sure Scoots probably doesn't want to be the face of these types of discussions because he doesn't want to tarnish his rapport with the community.. but Alex seems all too eager to play the cold, know-it-all businessman.. and in a community like this that has a lot of passion and interest in the personal side of things, touting your business savvy and turning arguments around on people by trying to explain to them why they're not as smart as you is not going to go a long way towards EG's likeability. This isn't a courtroom..
On July 22 2011 20:38 FXOpen wrote: As I have said before, we should all love korea, because without korea starcraft is just a hobby.
I'd love a chance to hear industry insiders such as yourself discuss what Koreas role in the SC2 scene is and how you see it changing in the future as to the newer generation such as myself that weren't part of BW Korea has never been the corner stone of the E-sports scenes growth; it's been dominated by the Western scene.
Edit: To clarify what i meant as that's incredibly long winded;
Have you / other people in your role ever written anything about the role of Korea in the SC2 scene, it's future and its current state in a way that people could understand without a history with BW?
IF you PM me a series of Q's I will be happy to answer them. You are welcome to post them publically also.
EG is playing the role of the cold corporate brand while TSL is the poor small business that's getting moved out of town. Sure, everything that EG did was legal, but it was pretty fucking shady, greedy, and inconsiderate of TSL and its players.
An official apology to TSL as a team and Coach Lee as a person would go a long way, specially if EG wants to have dealings with the Korean scene in the future.
As I have said before, we should all love korea, because without korea starcraft is just a hobby.
I don't think that's true at all, Koreans are the best at the game, but the success of MLG, Dreamhack and even NASL has proven that the foreigner audience is here, and if the audience is there, sponsors will come, and if teams can get financial support, they can create environments to foster talented players.
If Korea really closes off to Foreign events they aren't doing themselves any favours IMO. SC2 in Korea doesn't really sound like a fairy tale.
note: I'm not defending EG's approach, just think BoSS is abit off the deep end here IMO, sure we'll see contracts and a tighter player association of some sort, but those things were inevitable as SC2 grew, hopefully everyone can simply learn from this situation and move on.
Personally I think it's great that Korean players are starting to go into foreigner teams. However, the way this was carried out was terrible. Korean teams will now start safeguarding their players from this kind of shit.
As I have said before, we should all love korea, because without korea starcraft is just a hobby.
I don't think that's true at all, Koreans are the best at the game, but the success of MLG, Dreamhack and even NASL has proven that the foreigner audience is here, and if the audience is there, sponsors will come, and if teams can get financial support, they can create environments to foster talented players.
If Korea really closes off to Foreign events they aren't doing themselves any favours IMO.
As I have said before, we should all love korea, because without korea starcraft is just a hobby.
I don't think that's true at all, Koreans are the best at the game, but the success of MLG, Dreamhack and even NASL has proven that the foreigner audience is here, and if the audience is there, sponsors will come, and if teams can get financial support, they can create environments to foster talented players.
If Korea really closes off to Foreign events they aren't doing themselves any favours IMO.
If it wasn't for Korea, notably in brood war. The sponsors would not pay so much for sponsorship. Because the vision wouldn't be there.
Its not a play on "Well without korea MLG wouldn't exist".. Facts are it would be behind by a few years and not nearly as successful. Koreans have done the ground work for the industry. We should respect that. They also do it best.
On July 22 2011 20:38 FXOpen wrote: Well done TLO. Thank you.
I was kind of preparing something similar.
I was sort of fine about the situation until I heard Alex on WOC... He made me quite disturbed. And my personal feeling was that he is "taking advantage" of those who can't particularly look out for themselves....
I feel sorry for Puma to be in the middle of this, because he is being taken advantage of.
The players association is going to tighten up now. There may be a risk of Koreans not going to foreign events or something along those lines.
As I have said before, we should all love korea, because without korea starcraft is just a hobby.
Seeing something like this, major community figureheads coming out to make statements on something highly controversial, regardless of whether it's similar or differing opinions, I think is proof of an intelligent and maturing community. Thank you to TLO and Boss for coming out and giving a resolute and clear opinion on the matter. (Boss I hope you still come out with a similar TL blog or reddit post with all of your thoughts, it'd be extremely insightful to hear another outside point of view from someone behind who's the scenes)
Here`s the problem; the fact that EG acted this way will bring a really bad opinion and reputation to all of the foreign scene. In Korea where everything is based on friendship and honesty among teams. Now that EG did this there will be suspicion in the relation between Korea and Foreign scene. All that I`m saying is that this happening is not bad only for EG, is bad for the remaining teams as well.
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
EG : for not communicating with the coach before/after he went on a public rant.
Puma : for telling EG not to communicate with Lee, and that '' he would handle it ''. EDIT : This for me is the worst of the 3 because he KNOWS what korean culture is like and KNOWS how his team/coach will feel, not to mention korean netizens. It seems like a bad call on his part.
Lee : for PUBLICLY ranting on EG/Puma without before getting in touch with EG
It seems not so long ago Team Liquid(Tyler) got angry at EG(incontrol) for just the same thing - EG had said/Ommited certain details PUBLICLY ( in TL forums ) and Tyler and others got mad that they went and did that publicly instead of first talking with them !
I don't think EG acted all that bad in regards to the whole Puma situation, I do however, after hearing what other people has said (I didn't watch WOC myself cause I was asleep when it aired) about yesterdays WOC, think that they handled that show very badly. Overall, while I'm a huge Scoots/EG fan, I seem to dislike Alex Garfield more and more every time he shows up...
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
Uhh, weren't Tester and Fruitdealer the players who FOUNDED TSL to begin with?
As I have said before, we should all love korea, because without korea starcraft is just a hobby.
I don't think that's true at all, Koreans are the best at the game, but the success of MLG, Dreamhack and even NASL has proven that the foreigner audience is here, and if the audience is there, sponsors will come, and if teams can get financial support, they can create environments to foster talented players.
If Korea really closes off to Foreign events they aren't doing themselves any favours IMO.
As I have said before, we should all love korea, because without korea starcraft is just a hobby.
I don't think that's true at all, Koreans are the best at the game, but the success of MLG, Dreamhack and even NASL has proven that the foreigner audience is here, and if the audience is there, sponsors will come, and if teams can get financial support, they can create environments to foster talented players.
If Korea really closes off to Foreign events they aren't doing themselves any favours IMO.
If it wasn't for Korea, notably in brood war. The sponsors would not pay so much for sponsorship. Because the vision wouldn't be there.
Its not a play on "Well without korea MLG wouldn't exist".. Facts are it would be behind by a few years and not nearly as successful. Koreans have done the ground work for the industry. We should respect that. They also do it best.
I can't argue with any of that, but the point is SC2 is booming global and the interest is really overshadowing Korea, basically, Korea shouldn't overplay their hand here, doing something like forcing players wanting to participate in GSL to join an association and not be let into foreign events would just be plain stupid on their part.
On July 22 2011 20:54 Ingebrigtsen wrote: well, fall from grace from TLO, get the facts stragith before posting.
They agreed that Puma was gonna talk to the coaches, and that was what happened, please, look at both sides...
"The news went out before you wanted it and guess what it's because you didn't talk to TSL."
What is wrong about this statement? If EG wants to have control over when things get released they need to consult the managers of TSL. I doubt that EG said to Puma : when you are talking to TSL, please tell them to not break the news. (and even if they did, they shouldn't rely on that but directly talk to TSL)
As I have said before, we should all love korea, because without korea starcraft is just a hobby.
I don't think that's true at all, Koreans are the best at the game, but the success of MLG, Dreamhack and even NASL has proven that the foreigner audience is here, and if the audience is there, sponsors will come, and if teams can get financial support, they can create environments to foster talented players.
If Korea really closes off to Foreign events they aren't doing themselves any favours IMO.
As I have said before, we should all love korea, because without korea starcraft is just a hobby.
I don't think that's true at all, Koreans are the best at the game, but the success of MLG, Dreamhack and even NASL has proven that the foreigner audience is here, and if the audience is there, sponsors will come, and if teams can get financial support, they can create environments to foster talented players.
If Korea really closes off to Foreign events they aren't doing themselves any favours IMO.
If it wasn't for Korea, notably in brood war. The sponsors would not pay so much for sponsorship. Because the vision wouldn't be there.
Its not a play on "Well without korea MLG wouldn't exist".. Facts are it would be behind by a few years and not nearly as successful. Koreans have done the ground work for the industry. We should respect that. They also do it best.
I can't argue with any of that, but the point is SC2 is booming global and the interest is really overshadowing Korea, basically, Korea shouldn't overplay their hand here, doing something like forcing players wanting to participate in GSL to join an association and not be let into foreign events would just be plain stupid on their part.
This would never happen and Mr. Chae would never let it happen so there's no point talking about it.
On July 22 2011 20:54 crackcc wrote: They are all to blame. EG, Puma, Lee !
EG : for not communicating with the coach before/after he went on a public rant.
Puma : for telling EG not to communicate with Lee, and that '' he would handle it ''. EDIT : This for me is the worst of the 3 because he KNOWS what korean culture is like and KNOWS how his team/coach will feel, not to mention korean netizens. It seems like a bad call on his part.
Lee : for PUBLICLY ranting on EG/Puma without before getting in touch with EG
It seems not so long ago Team Liquid(Tyler) got angry at EG(incontrol) for just the same thing - EG had said/Ommited certain details PUBLICLY ( in TL forums ) and Tyler and others got mad that they went and did that publicly instead of first talking with them !
^ UPVOTE v DOWNVOTE
^ This is a very intelligent post. I agree with it wholeheartedly. It is interesting that EG is angry that they weren't consulted for their side of things in Milkis' post when not too long ago, they were defending the exact same practice in regards to the TL/Master's Cup controversy. Seems kind of hypocritical.
On July 22 2011 20:57 Adebisi wrote: Ack everyone responds before I finish editting my post, I'm so bad ><
On July 22 2011 20:52 Plexa wrote:
On July 22 2011 20:51 Adebisi wrote:
On July 22 2011 20:38 FXOpen wrote:
As I have said before, we should all love korea, because without korea starcraft is just a hobby.
I don't think that's true at all, Koreans are the best at the game, but the success of MLG, Dreamhack and even NASL has proven that the foreigner audience is here, and if the audience is there, sponsors will come, and if teams can get financial support, they can create environments to foster talented players.
If Korea really closes off to Foreign events they aren't doing themselves any favours IMO.
If Korea closes off nobody wins.
Agree 100% @_@.
On July 22 2011 20:53 FXOpen wrote:
On July 22 2011 20:51 Adebisi wrote:
On July 22 2011 20:38 FXOpen wrote:
As I have said before, we should all love korea, because without korea starcraft is just a hobby.
I don't think that's true at all, Koreans are the best at the game, but the success of MLG, Dreamhack and even NASL has proven that the foreigner audience is here, and if the audience is there, sponsors will come, and if teams can get financial support, they can create environments to foster talented players.
If Korea really closes off to Foreign events they aren't doing themselves any favours IMO.
If it wasn't for Korea, notably in brood war. The sponsors would not pay so much for sponsorship. Because the vision wouldn't be there.
Its not a play on "Well without korea MLG wouldn't exist".. Facts are it would be behind by a few years and not nearly as successful. Koreans have done the ground work for the industry. We should respect that. They also do it best.
I can't argue with any of that, but the point is SC2 is booming global and the interest is really overshadowing Korea, basically, Korea shouldn't overplay their hand here, doing something like forcing players wanting to participate in GSL to join an association and not be let into foreign events would just be plain stupid on their part.
This would never happen and Mr. Chae would never let it happen so there's no point talking about it.
A lot of trouble across the board, I can't help but agree with TLO and BoSS. Voices of reason in troubling times, I can't help but respect EG less with this decision. I hope to see an official announcement or press release from them soon, as a "professional" organization should release in troubling times where they are quickly getting a lot of bad PR.
Today's episode of WOC was the first time I've ever been really annoyed while watching/listening/reading anything on the internet SC2 related. This Alex Garfield guy was really a first rate tool on the show and really made the situation a lot worse. His passive aggressiveness was unbelievable.
On July 22 2011 21:02 Ingebrigtsen wrote: And what other shows was he supposed to go on??
there was 1 show that evening, and it was WoC. if he was to wait SotG, you would hate on him for waiting 2 weeks, instead of 18 hours.....
Forget shows, how about just a sensibly written statement on their site/TL?
The fact that Alex came out and basically insulted one of the more prominent members of the TL community, when all he did was translate a statement that the TSL coach made to TL, plus the situation so far (all the facts we know now arn't out yet), is a pathetic stand, and is worsening their stand
Good read by both TLO and FXOBoSS (in the comments), its nice to see a relaxed and down to earth point of view on matters like this that will have a bigger effect on the SC2 scene the longer it goes on.
And yes, if we like it or not Korea is the "home" of SC-BW/SC2 as an e-sport and if its good "business behavior" or not all party's involved will do well to respect them.
Later in the conversation Alex brings up the ambiguity of journalism with regards to the SC2 scene and the user driven content of TL. He accuses Milkis of claiming to be a translator but offering his own opinions along with translations. While there is a bit of fairness to that, and the role of journalistic integrity in eSports needs to be discussed(Hello Jen Schiller breaking every journalistic rule and intentionally misinterpreting and interview!) the fault for the lack of information lies entirely with EG. I'm practically foaming at the mouth that Alex had the gall to accuse Milkis of not getting a statement from EG.
Alex went out of his way to specifically mention that he read the forum posts. It would be bad enough if he simply chose to stay silent and let the misinformation spread. Alex would know infinitely more about running a professional eSports organization than I would, so perhaps there's a reason for the absolute information blackout. But instead of simply staying silent he accuses Milkis of not reaching out to EG to get a quote. While I think it could be successfully argued this isn't Milkis' responsibility, it's also outright false. Milkis asked scoots for his side of the story, twice, 18 hours ago. http://twitter.com/#!/OrangeMilkis/status/93956837665288192http://twitter.com/#!/OrangeMilkis/status/93946564791373824
Thanks for this. I feel that this definitely shows that EG fumbled, and fumbled hard.
I think the point about Milkis is valid . If he is a translator then he should translate, having opinion pieces going with translations seems unprofessional.
Very good writeup, Dario. Thanks for your thoughts, mine are very similar.
Besides the whole drama which is going on here some thoughts from myself: Obviously the koreans in general are very pissed about this. I have the concern this thing here could backfire and have such a huge impact on the scene that koreans decide to no longer participate in foreign tournaments or that players who considered going to a foreign team will cancel there plans on doing so. As far as I know the korean culture is about pride, honor and respect and if you can see on their reactions this thing hit them pretty hard. It is not about the player "stealing" thing itself - I think they would be delighted to receive requests and offers for their players - it's about how this happened - behind the "back" of the coach.
Hopefully the koreans as well as the SC@ esports scene in general has learned from that and player contracts will be mandatory in the future. Only with real contracts including salaries, penalties and all this stuff the scene can be taken more seriously compared to other sports.
I really really hope this issue did not damage the scene...
Good post TLO, I agree with everything or nearly. Discovered this blog thanks to my Twitter being spammed haha. I guess agreeing with you makes me a TLO fanboy if I understood correctly.
By the way, did EG released a statement about this ? Or you're referring to the WOC episode (that I haven't seen yet)
We shouldn't put any blame on players, it is wrong. They are happy to be able to live their life off of their passion and many of us would do anything to be in their shoes. I think any incontrol hate (or any other hate) has no place here (some are bashing on him in the weapon of choice thread). If something has gone wrong (there's different opinions to say the least), the people in charge are at fault. I mean who blames puma, a young kid who's been playing starcraft for all his life with dedication, for being interested in earning actual money? He's just like all the other players, being happy to be able to do this and earn a living.
Again ... if something has gone wrong, blame the people responsible on EG, but not incontrol, puma or anyone else -.-
Starcraft 2 is a competitive sport, meaning there is alot of competition inside and outside of the game. If its really that big of a deal, why didn't TSL not fight for Puma more?
Bottom line, Puma wanted to join EG or he wouldn't have left TSL, and it was his choice ultimately. There was no contract with Puma and TSL, according to the article http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=245970 So he had every right to join whatever team would sign him. EG didnt force him to join, Puma made that choice, but I don't see anyone getting upset with Puma for accepting the offer so soon...
+1 to TLO's article. There are lot's of rational reasons why it was "ok" what EG did, but the way they conduct themselves puts me off them as a team. You can't hide douchbaggery behind "it's business" all the time.
I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
I didn't have much of an opinion until EG decided to go Fox News on MIlkis like that, just baseless attacks and hammering him into submission. Really sad that this guy was brought out to help remedy the issue and all he succeeded in doing was make EG look like a bunch of assholes.
I dont get why there's so much fans and big sponsors for EG. The managment and the players always bring up controversy. Plus they focus too much on marketing,shows and just suck at tourneys. They just talk shit too much
I just hope the Korean SC2 association realises that it's EG playing up slightly unethical on how it runs....
I would be a sad day when Korea/Western world shuts off from each other.
Still like in football players are not supposed to be communicated with without the consent of their agent/manager. However if they are not in contract it's going to happen whether people like it or not.
I love TLO and all but this just seems like a "omg, they bullied Milkis, I'll show them!"
I don't know why people (and it doesn't matter if it's TLO or some random dude with 200 posts) think they can express an opinion on something they don't know about.
Has TLO talked to Puma, to TSL, to EG? I don't think so. It is very easy to play when you ahve the home court advantage.
If anyone has been around the CS scene for at least 8+ years they definitely know one thing: avoid Alex Garfield like the plague. Nothing this guy has ever pushed for has ended positively, just look at the CSP project. EG has been the vein for his $ train for a very, very long time now.
I was all on EG's side until they try to blame it on the news post/leak. They could have been the bigger men and just said, "We didn't have the time to prepare an official statement at 4am in the morning. It's sad that so much speculation had to go on but here's the deal..."
As for the whole Korean drama, poor coach and what not. I don't sympathize in the least, as Rek said, karma is a bitch. Go PuMa and go EG!
Also, I don't see the point in TLO making a statement. It serves no point imo. I'm not saying you aren't entitled to an opinion, I'm not sure why you chose to make a flashy new blog post about it. There still room in the News Thread to post opinions along with everyone else.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
you're going to argue that a computer based organisation in 2011 should adhere to a west coast 9-5. thats really, really, really stupid. im a European and i was up till 4am reading the drama, with no EG response. that prime time for american internet users.
you're also making comparisons to real sports that dont make any sense. the reason for press conferences taking days to prepare is that people to need physically be in the room, that takes travel time. in the world of the internet the time to organize something is as long as it takes to write
the 'hate' bandwagon is nothing to do with this being a 1 sided story. for months now there has been a story every month where either alex, colby, incontrol or scoots posts something fucking stupid and unprofessional on a matter, acts like a jerk on teamliquid or twitter then gets all suprised when people expect a little more from people backed by so many big name companies.
EG has serious serious problems with hypocrisy. they are known more for trashing talking players while being underperforming themselves, going grammar nazi over people misspeaking then using that as a defence for themselves and demanding professionalism from everyone except themselves than they are for doing anything amazing 'on the field'.
Calling Milkis "more than just a translator" and saying that he needs to have more journalistic integrity, that is straight up disrespectful to real journalists. Are there any real journalists in ESPORTS? I don't think so, but I could definately be wrong. There's no money (not a lot of money, but a living salary) doing journalism in ESPORTS, and it's a real field with a real education that takes a lot of time and money. So it's just no feasible. Milkis is NOT a journalist, he's a translator. He posted verbatim (albeit translated, so perhaps not completely verbatim, but I digress) "press releases" from PlayXP. It is not his responsibility, nor should it ever be, to seek out information that he is not privy to from EG management. Like he said, he did not have phone numbers, private emails or any way to quickly and accurately contact them. They should PM him on TL or Twitter if they want their side of the story out there.
The only thing he did was relay information that was already out there for all to see to an English scene. The responsibility should, and must, lie with EG in that case in my opinion. It is not reasonable to expect Milkis to adhere to a standard which is completely different from his job description.
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
Keeping quiet when you do it yourself, but crying out when someone does it to you is the very definition of a hypocrite.
I have to trust Rekrul's word here, but he doesn't strike me as someone who would lie about something like that.
I don't have any respect for Coach Lee after this. EG did nothing wrong.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
Wait a second, what? How are you going to go on a rant about journalistic integrity and completely ignore the fact that one of the managing directors of EG is also a partner at onemoregame.tv? We get it Zlasher... you're a sycophant that will do just about anything to advance your "career" in e-sports, but to attack Milkis for lacking integrity in a field he has never claimed is low even for you.
Honestly, I dont really care about this whole EG/Puma drama, I probably dont know the entire story and frankly I just dont care all that much. But anyone who attacks Milkis, someone who contributes so much to this community, for free (fuck your journalistic standards zlasher) and flames him for the very thing that people should respect him for can go fuck themselves. And a big lol to anyone expecting him to contact EG before doing his translation... how stupidly ironic is that
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
Are you really STILL going after Milkis?
Are you fucking kidding me?
Not attacking Milkis, I was attacking bad journalism, something that I explained has a "fix", in that post. But I suppose you didn't read it.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
you're going to argue that a computer based organisation in 2011 should adhere to a west coast 9-5.
Should an organization adhere to West Coast 9-5? Yes, if the heads of the organization are on the West Coast
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
How hard can it be to make a short post about it? FXO does it, sixjax does it. Actually, EG are the only ones who don't. Saying its obscene to blame EG for not releasing a statement for 20(?!?!) hours and then attacking milkis for not trying to get EG's side of the story when he actually did try to get their side of the story, now that is unacceptable. Long terrible post with little logic.
EG didn't release a statement for 20 hours? Actually it was 14 hours, 7 of which a sane human being is asleep for. The next 7 hours would have been more improper considering that plans were set to appear on a more public platform AKA WoC.
Want another sports example? Why would EG have felt the need to comment on a playxp article that clearly had a few errors, especially on a player that is still in free agent state, that still is not a member of their organization. Do the Yankees officials ever comment on the player they're about to sign? How about FC Barcelona, or Manchester United? Nobody ever comments on it until the deal is done.
I totally disagree with everything you said in the OP, TLO. Sorry I'm not jumping on the bandwagon like everyone else but I think most of you need to open your eyes, it's probably too hard to open your brains.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
Are you really STILL going after Milkis?
Are you fucking kidding me?
Not attacking Milkis, I was attacking bad journalism, something that I explained has a "fix", in that post. But I suppose you didn't read it.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
you're going to argue that a computer based organisation in 2011 should adhere to a west coast 9-5.
Should an organization adhere to West Coast 9-5? Yes, if the heads of the organization are on the West Coast
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
How hard can it be to make a short post about it? FXO does it, sixjax does it. Actually, EG are the only ones who don't. Saying its obscene to blame EG for not releasing a statement for 20(?!?!) hours and then attacking milkis for not trying to get EG's side of the story when he actually did try to get their side of the story, now that is unacceptable. Long terrible post with little logic.
EG didn't release a statement for 20 hours? Actually it was 14 hours, 7 of which a sane human being is asleep for. The next 7 hours would have been more improper considering that plans were set to appear on a more public platform AKA WoC.
Want another sports example? Why would EG have felt the need to comment on a playxp article that clearly had a few errors, especially on a player that is still in free agent state, that still is not a member of their organization. Do the Yankees officials ever comment on the player they're about to sign? How about FC Barcelona, or Manchester United? Nobody ever comments on it until the deal is done.
so you think it would have been better if some random forum user had posted an inaccurate computer generated translation of the playxp article? Translating has nothing to do with journalism. If you want to blame anyone, go after playxp. But I guess thats too hard to do for both you and for EG while Milkis is a convenient target.
Its well that you blogged in addition to posting in the thread. I know I gave up on that thread a long time ago.
If they want to play the bad boys, they should at least be able to deal with the criticism, however EG seems to demand high morale standard from everyone but themselves.
Its pretty much about this. They KNOW they were doing something wrong. Or they are VERY stupid. Then when people are like "hey you guys!" they are like "common stop hating". What they did is wrong. It doesn't matter if you don't like coach lee. A crime is a crime a foul is a foul and approaching a team member without talking to the team is a big foul. Quite frankly i don't care about it too much but EG's reaction is making me like them less. A community like starcraft would have reacted better to immediate insincere apologies than lies and delays.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
Are you really STILL going after Milkis?
Are you fucking kidding me?
Not attacking Milkis, I was attacking bad journalism, something that I explained has a "fix", in that post. But I suppose you didn't read it.
Oh I read it. But don't act for a second like you weren't directing that at the Milkis situation.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
Are you really STILL going after Milkis?
Are you fucking kidding me?
Not attacking Milkis, I was attacking bad journalism, something that I explained has a "fix", in that post. But I suppose you didn't read it.
Oh I read it. But don't act for a second like you weren't directing that at the Milkis situation.
yea wtf thats such a cheap way of arguing zlasher oh let me interpret what you said in the way i want to .. and then be like "ah you idiot didnt even read what I said"
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
Are you really STILL going after Milkis?
Are you fucking kidding me?
Not attacking Milkis, I was attacking bad journalism, something that I explained has a "fix", in that post. But I suppose you didn't read it.
On July 22 2011 21:27 turdburgler wrote:
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
you're going to argue that a computer based organisation in 2011 should adhere to a west coast 9-5.
Should an organization adhere to West Coast 9-5? Yes, if the heads of the organization are on the West Coast
On July 22 2011 21:27 zeru wrote:
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
How hard can it be to make a short post about it? FXO does it, sixjax does it. Actually, EG are the only ones who don't. Saying its obscene to blame EG for not releasing a statement for 20(?!?!) hours and then attacking milkis for not trying to get EG's side of the story when he actually did try to get their side of the story, now that is unacceptable. Long terrible post with little logic.
EG didn't release a statement for 20 hours? Actually it was 14 hours, 7 of which a sane human being is asleep for. The next 7 hours would have been more improper considering that plans were set to appear on a more public platform AKA WoC.
Want another sports example? Why would EG have felt the need to comment on a playxp article that clearly had a few errors, especially on a player that is still in free agent state, that still is not a member of their organization. Do the Yankees officials ever comment on the player they're about to sign? How about FC Barcelona, or Manchester United? Nobody ever comments on it until the deal is done.
Scoots was awake and was tweeting with milkis and could've easily made a post right after the translation was posted. all i can see are terrible excuses for how awfully they handled basically everything regarding this issue.
But does Scoots speak 100% for the organization, or should he wait til Alex can speak as well, or wait til the more public platform exists to speak on, once accepting the public platform. Once again, all for a player that is still technically a free agent and unsigned.
If news about a trade happens in baseball for the SF Giants, and I see Bruce Bochy tweet something, do I feel entitled to an immediate statement from him? Do I feel entitled to an immediate statement from Brian Sabean (the General Manager), or do I wait until the public platform (the press conference) happens in order to hear it then.
Well said TLO. Milkis does so much for this community he shouldn't have been put in the situation to be attacked. I think he presented it fine. Of course you are going to want to hear as much about the story as possible. The addition of the coach Lee part contributed just that. EG could learn a whole lot from FXO.
On July 22 2011 20:14 Liquid`TLO wrote: After reading up on all the drama about Puma, EG definitely lived up to the adjective in their name, the second part, not so much.
Couldn't put it better myself, thanks for this Dario.
On July 22 2011 21:46 Morrisson wrote: SLasher missing the point completely, it's so beautiful.
Slasher...? You mean Zlasher.... -_- Well your argument just got worse unless I'm missing something here... And it would be nice if Rekrul elaborated. I'm having trouble finding the bad side of the fruitdealer-ogs issue. I do agree with Zlasher about if a comment like Rekrul's was made first, a good portion of people would have had opposite feelings.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
Are you really STILL going after Milkis?
Are you fucking kidding me?
Not attacking Milkis, I was attacking bad journalism, something that I explained has a "fix", in that post. But I suppose you didn't read it.
On July 22 2011 21:27 turdburgler wrote:
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
you're going to argue that a computer based organisation in 2011 should adhere to a west coast 9-5.
Should an organization adhere to West Coast 9-5? Yes, if the heads of the organization are on the West Coast
On July 22 2011 21:27 zeru wrote:
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
How hard can it be to make a short post about it? FXO does it, sixjax does it. Actually, EG are the only ones who don't. Saying its obscene to blame EG for not releasing a statement for 20(?!?!) hours and then attacking milkis for not trying to get EG's side of the story when he actually did try to get their side of the story, now that is unacceptable. Long terrible post with little logic.
EG didn't release a statement for 20 hours? Actually it was 14 hours, 7 of which a sane human being is asleep for. The next 7 hours would have been more improper considering that plans were set to appear on a more public platform AKA WoC.
Want another sports example? Why would EG have felt the need to comment on a playxp article that clearly had a few errors, especially on a player that is still in free agent state, that still is not a member of their organization. Do the Yankees officials ever comment on the player they're about to sign? How about FC Barcelona, or Manchester United? Nobody ever comments on it until the deal is done.
Scoots was awake and was tweeting with milkis and could've easily made a post right after the translation was posted. all i can see are terrible excuses for how awfully they handled basically everything regarding this issue.
But does Scoots speak 100% for the organization, or should he wait til Alex can speak as well, or wait til the more public platform exists to speak on, once accepting the public platform. Once again, all for a player that is still technically a free agent and unsigned.
If news about a trade happens in baseball for the SF Giants, and I see Bruce Bochy tweet something, do I feel entitled to an immediate statement from him? Do I feel entitled to an immediate statement from Brian Sabean (the General Manager), or do I wait until the public platform (the press conference) happens in order to hear it then.
Well it's not about being entitled... it would be in the very own interest of EG to act quicker. They however aren't entitled to not having people write things about them on forums...
and yes if EG wants to blame someone for lack of journalistic style then they should go after PlayXP instead of searching scapegoats. However you should be aware that what PlayXP did might be completely appropriate for a korean news site... so when Alex says that korean teams need to play the western game of contracts he should not chicken out to play the korean game of media.
I'm not exactly sure in which form the playXP site released it but if it was an interview then it is always one-sided and good standard to release... people know that interviews have a certain PoV. Just check up the EG interview with Incontrol where he falsely accuses TB of hilarious things. I am pretty sure they didn't ask TB about that before releasing either.
I agree mostly with what you've said Dario. EG went about this in a very bad way... I find it hard to believe that they didn't expect some sort of backlash.
On July 22 2011 20:22 TheButtonmen wrote: Always glad to see the pros taking the time to interact with the community, disagree with you here but most importantly of all good luck at the WCG!
What do you disagree with the OP? I'm just curious and would like to know.
My thoughts can be found here, if you have any other questions shoot me a PM I don't really want to bring my arguments about this spilling over into TLO's blog.
No surprises here, not the first time EG behaves like this.. Glad someone took the time to write this up. Cant ever imagine a respectable organization doing this >_<. Cant believe Milkis was attacked, wtf.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
Are you really STILL going after Milkis?
Are you fucking kidding me?
Not attacking Milkis, I was attacking bad journalism, something that I explained has a "fix", in that post. But I suppose you didn't read it.
On July 22 2011 21:27 turdburgler wrote:
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
you're going to argue that a computer based organisation in 2011 should adhere to a west coast 9-5.
Should an organization adhere to West Coast 9-5? Yes, if the heads of the organization are on the West Coast
On July 22 2011 21:27 zeru wrote:
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
How hard can it be to make a short post about it? FXO does it, sixjax does it. Actually, EG are the only ones who don't. Saying its obscene to blame EG for not releasing a statement for 20(?!?!) hours and then attacking milkis for not trying to get EG's side of the story when he actually did try to get their side of the story, now that is unacceptable. Long terrible post with little logic.
EG didn't release a statement for 20 hours? Actually it was 14 hours, 7 of which a sane human being is asleep for. The next 7 hours would have been more improper considering that plans were set to appear on a more public platform AKA WoC.
Want another sports example? Why would EG have felt the need to comment on a playxp article that clearly had a few errors, especially on a player that is still in free agent state, that still is not a member of their organization. Do the Yankees officials ever comment on the player they're about to sign? How about FC Barcelona, or Manchester United? Nobody ever comments on it until the deal is done.
Scoots was awake and was tweeting with milkis and could've easily made a post right after the translation was posted. all i can see are terrible excuses for how awfully they handled basically everything regarding this issue.
Pretty much this, sums it up well. I kinda find it ironic that this shitstorm started with people having a problem with EG's ethics and integrity when approaching Puma, and it's now come full circle to EG attacking the integrity of Milkis who had the gall to translate an article. It's ridiculous. Qutie frankly EG management can get fucked as far as I'm concerned.
On July 22 2011 20:52 darcevader88 wrote: TLO does not mess around, doesn't mince words but isn't rude.
Gotta love it, completely agree.
I don't think Dario could be rude if he tried.
LoL TLO is BM on ladder xD
heresay.
No, it's true he does. But it's the least sincere BM in the world. And only in team games that I've seen. He'll follow it up with some ":D :D"s unless it's in response to someone particularly being an ass.
Milkis fighting. We can only talk about the facts. I don't really care that they do business dirty, I really care that it took them forever to answer, and that they attacked milkis
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
Are you really STILL going after Milkis?
Are you fucking kidding me?
Not attacking Milkis, I was attacking bad journalism, something that I explained has a "fix", in that post. But I suppose you didn't read it.
On July 22 2011 21:27 turdburgler wrote:
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
you're going to argue that a computer based organisation in 2011 should adhere to a west coast 9-5.
Should an organization adhere to West Coast 9-5? Yes, if the heads of the organization are on the West Coast
On July 22 2011 21:27 zeru wrote:
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
How hard can it be to make a short post about it? FXO does it, sixjax does it. Actually, EG are the only ones who don't. Saying its obscene to blame EG for not releasing a statement for 20(?!?!) hours and then attacking milkis for not trying to get EG's side of the story when he actually did try to get their side of the story, now that is unacceptable. Long terrible post with little logic.
EG didn't release a statement for 20 hours? Actually it was 14 hours, 7 of which a sane human being is asleep for. The next 7 hours would have been more improper considering that plans were set to appear on a more public platform AKA WoC.
Want another sports example? Why would EG have felt the need to comment on a playxp article that clearly had a few errors, especially on a player that is still in free agent state, that still is not a member of their organization. Do the Yankees officials ever comment on the player they're about to sign? How about FC Barcelona, or Manchester United? Nobody ever comments on it until the deal is done.
Scoots was awake and was tweeting with milkis and could've easily made a post right after the translation was posted. all i can see are terrible excuses for how awfully they handled basically everything regarding this issue.
But does Scoots speak 100% for the organization, or should he wait til Alex can speak as well, or wait til the more public platform exists to speak on, once accepting the public platform. Once again, all for a player that is still technically a free agent and unsigned.
If news about a trade happens in baseball for the SF Giants, and I see Bruce Bochy tweet something, do I feel entitled to an immediate statement from him? Do I feel entitled to an immediate statement from Brian Sabean (the General Manager), or do I wait until the public platform (the press conference) happens in order to hear it then.
But everything you say is completely missing the point. I don't know why you talk about journalism or about "EG was asleep". Ok, EG was sleeping, it's not a problem, they do what they want to do. But then blaming other people for...what ? A translated article ? What you're saying would make sense in a totally different context, but misses the point in this context. It's like you're an EG employee trying to derail the thread so people talk about random stuff.
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
You quote Dan for your defense. Are you serious?
I already gave my retort to this claim by Dan. He's simply egging others on and FD along with Tester left oGs on their own accord. Not Lee's. They wanted out. You should know what Dan is capable of and how he works considering you've been apart of this community for a while.
Mind boggling.
You bring up journalist standards once again. Seriously? These standards you speak of are nothing but hyperbole especially in this industry. Shit like this happens all the time.
Again, Milkes isn't a journalist. Stop treating him like such.
Let's discuss Milkes Twitter comments.
Last time I checked, you are allowed to post your thoughts via Twitter on your personal account.
Twitter is one way of retrieving information and it's just that. It's a resource and nothing more.
Yes, real reporters use Twitter to break developing stories. However, no one in their right mind would view it as the actual story. It's only used for leads.
Once again, Milkes. Translator.
He translated an article on another site and brought it here. Twitter and the article he translated are two separate things.
Dario is a scholar and a gentleman, and I am glad that he isn't afraid to share his thoughts given his status in the community . I agree with almost all of his sentiments.
On July 22 2011 21:48 Zlasher wrote: If news about a trade happens in baseball for the SF Giants, and I see Bruce Bochy tweet something, do I feel entitled to an immediate statement from him? Do I feel entitled to an immediate statement from Brian Sabean (the General Manager), or do I wait until the public platform (the press conference) happens in order to hear it then.
MLB has anti-tampering rules.
"Oh, but you see... Puma was not under contract so that does not apply!" So what about Sen? Pretty sure he's under contract!
Edited for kennigit. I was completely wrong, didn't realize AG was the actual owner of EG. :3 If I may revise my statement, I think AG should discontinue the way he has conducted this Puma business and calling out translators for lack of "Journalist integrity" in the future. I really hope he takes some more time to reflect on this entire matter.
I didn't watch this WoC thing live or something, but upon reading on multiple threads here on TL and on other sites (including PlayXP and TIG articles) I'm quite surprised that a professional organization would go out and publicly call out on a volunteer translator for the mess. For those questioning the integrity of his translations, there are plenty other KR-EN translators here who can easily vouch for his work (that it's reasonable unbiased). Nobody can define "0% bias" or "complete objectivity" but it's not hard to confirm that a translation has been properly conducted to the best of his/her abilities.
What EG did to pull Puma out of TSL didn't include anything illegal by law. Puma was not bound under any legal contracts and TSL decided to release him anyway (not that it would have mattered since there were no contracts). One could say it was disrespectful and "dirty" but EG did what they had to do to acquire a talented player.
EG isn't a new team to the scene. They have been around for many years and they probably want to be around for many years more, as a better team. However, the point here, is that they should have known the consequences. It's not like EG never watched how things work in Korea. SC2 and its leagues have been out for long enough time for EG to know how things operate there. They should have expected disappointment from TSL's coach and staff, they should have anticipated that interviews and statements would be made available pretty quickly. Even if EG didn't have enough time to respond to TSL coach's interview, they should have already prepared several original statements regarding the acquisition of Puma and their stance on this issue. It's obvious there are time zone differences and teams should have already taken this into account. E-sports is global, and that implies while you're sleeping, articles and interviews can pop up halfway around the globe. You simply can't use it as an excuse for being unprepared.
I'm glad the community is spewing out a ton of opinions and having an active discussion. It tells me, at the least, that the moral side of sports is alive and recognized in e-sports. If people didn't care about respect and care for teams and played only by legal contracts, there wouldn't be a discussion right now. The replies I saw on PlayXP and TIG were mostly constructive and well-mannered, so that tells me at least the SC2 audience on those particular websites aren't silly kids spamming random derogatory garbage like on Fomos.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
You quote Dan for your defense. Are you serious?
I already gave my retort to this claim by Dan. He's simply egging others on and FD along with Tester left oGs on their own accord. Not Lee's. They wanted out. You should know what Dan is capable of and how he works considering you've been apart of this community for a while.
Mind boggling.
You bring up journalist standards once again. Seriously? These standards you speak of are nothing but hyperbole especially in this industry. Shit like this happens all the time.
Again, Milkes isn't a journalist. Stop treating him like such.
Let's discuss Milkes Twitter comments.
Last time I checked, you are allowed to post your thoughts via Twitter on your personal account.
Twitter is one way of retrieving information and it's just that. It's a resource and nothing more.
Yes, real reporters use Twitter to break developing stories. However, no one in their right mind would view it as the actual story. It's only used for leads.
Once again, Milkes. Translator.
He translated an article on another site and brought it here. Twitter and the article he translated are two separate things.
TL made it pretty clear that nobody "ignores the rules" now.
If he is lying he deserves to be banned for saying that when the drama is happening.
On July 22 2011 22:08 EnderCraft wrote: AG should be fired IMO. I don't want someone like him in our industry. The way he represented himself and EG towards the end of WoC should not reflect the image that EG wants to portray...
ummm...errrr, i have to shower. Some one else cover this please.
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
erm, you realise you just quoted someone regarding a subject you don't provide further information about? Something you seem to think is bad for someone like Milkis to do. Something even more inflammatory than a simple translation.
On July 22 2011 21:48 Zlasher wrote: If news about a trade happens in baseball for the SF Giants, and I see Bruce Bochy tweet something, do I feel entitled to an immediate statement from him? Do I feel entitled to an immediate statement from Brian Sabean (the General Manager), or do I wait until the public platform (the press conference) happens in order to hear it then.
MLB has anti-tampering rules.
"Oh, but you see... Puma was not under contract so that does not apply!" So what about Sen? Pretty sure he's under contract!
Sens contract is running out at the end of August or September so yes teams have been checking on his interest levels in moving or if he will be renewing with them.
On July 22 2011 22:08 EnderCraft wrote: AG should be fired IMO. I don't want someone like him in our industry. The way he represented himself and EG towards the end of WoC should not reflect the image that EG wants to portray...
ummm...errrr, i have to shower. Some one else cover this please.
I'LL DO 500 SQUATS WHILE YOU TAKE THE SHOWER. WE'LL HAVE THIS WRAPPED UP IN NO TIME.
and at the quoted comment, AG basically runs EG. It would be like firing the CEO out of his own company... I think you are overreacting a bit. He doesn't deserve to lose his job.
Things like this make me think teams should have to sign up to some type of code of ethics if they want to take part, and get banned if they break it... hell I dunno, I just don't want to see this kind of thing happen again.
After EG's history it really was only a matter of time, are any of you really surprised? ^_^ Attacking Milkis was rediculous but what would you expect on EG-o-vision.
On July 22 2011 21:48 Zlasher wrote: If news about a trade happens in baseball for the SF Giants, and I see Bruce Bochy tweet something, do I feel entitled to an immediate statement from him? Do I feel entitled to an immediate statement from Brian Sabean (the General Manager), or do I wait until the public platform (the press conference) happens in order to hear it then.
MLB has anti-tampering rules.
"Oh, but you see... Puma was not under contract so that does not apply!" So what about Sen? Pretty sure he's under contract!
Sens contract is running out at the end of August or September so yes teams have been checking on his interest levels in moving or if he will be renewing with them.
Which would break the anti-tampering rules in every professional sports league that I can think of. What is your point?
On July 22 2011 21:52 TBO wrote: and yes if EG wants to blame someone for lack of journalistic style then they should go after PlayXP instead of searching scapegoats. However you should be aware that what PlayXP did might be completely appropriate for a korean news site... so when Alex says that korean teams need to play the western game of contracts he should not chicken out to play the korean game of media.
This is such a good point. I imagine if they made the effort to contact someone at PlayXP or thisisgame or even gomtv they could've got some coverage if they wanted to clear up any misunderstandings.
On July 22 2011 22:12 Aetherial wrote: Things like this make me think teams should have to sign up to some type of code of ethics if they want to take part, and get banned if they break it... hell I dunno, I just don't want to see this kind of thing happen again.
i dont even think most people are mad about EG went about 'securing' puma. its the retarded PR machine they try to run afterwards which involves taking a bit of a dump on a guy who works hard for the community for no reward and using really badly thoughtout arguments to defend themselves.
all they had to say was we talked to puma and we agreed that he would be the one to break the news to his coaches, that decision was of debatable merit but we ran with it.
and then just stop talking, stop playing weird games with people.
On July 22 2011 22:08 EnderCraft wrote: AG should be fired IMO. I don't want someone like him in our industry. The way he represented himself and EG towards the end of WoC should not reflect the image that EG wants to portray...
ummm...errrr, i have to shower. Some one else cover this please.
On July 22 2011 22:08 EnderCraft wrote: AG should be fired IMO. I don't want someone like him in our industry. The way he represented himself and EG towards the end of WoC should not reflect the image that EG wants to portray...
ummm...errrr, i have to shower. Some one else cover this please.
OK
The owner firing himself? Seems kind of hard.
I was completely wrong. I got confused with AG's position in the EG organization.
On July 22 2011 22:08 EnderCraft wrote: AG should be fired IMO. I don't want someone like him in our industry. The way he represented himself and EG towards the end of WoC should not reflect the image that EG wants to portray...
ummm...errrr, i have to shower. Some one else cover this please.
OK
The owner firing himself? Seems kind of hard.
I was completely wrong. I got confused with AG's position in the EG organization.
Easy mistake, he is lurking in the shadows most of the time
On July 22 2011 22:12 Aetherial wrote: Things like this make me think teams should have to sign up to some type of code of ethics if they want to take part, and get banned if they break it... hell I dunno, I just don't want to see this kind of thing happen again.
i dont even think most people are mad about EG went about 'securing' puma. its the retarded PR machine they try to run afterwards which involves taking a bit of a dump on a guy who works hard for the community for no reward and using really badly thoughtout arguments to defend themselves.
all they had to say was we talked to puma and we agreed that he would be the one to break the news to his coaches, that decision was of debatable merit but we ran with it.
and then just stop talking, stop playing weird games with people.
Exactly. When the news came I was conflicted about this, I thought that everyone was to blame (but blame is too strong of a word). But now that I see how they handled that and how they treated Milkis, I just don't like EG anymore.
Zlasher you are awsome! love your opinion. Those who are rejecting the comparison to "real" sport are the ones do not see Esports growing. Esports is real sports just like darts and poker are shown as sports on ESPN! Might as well remove the "E".
Sure this is a business, but its a fan driven business and pissing off the fans is not "good for esports" be it international or korean. Now eg has a few players I once respected but they continue to undermine themselves and this has turned me from the brand. From inc/nasl to idra's continued behavior on live streams it seems to be a very unprofessional or at least immature team.
On July 22 2011 22:19 LegionUK wrote: Everything Slasher has posted in this thread has proven TLO's point a 1000 times over.
Well done TLO, so much respect for you.
So that there is no confusion:
Slasher: Works for MLG, pretty decent guy. Has NOT posted in this thread. Zlasher: Sycophant, hanger-on. Has posted in this thread.
Thank you for making me look up 'sycophant' and learning its meaning. I shall apply it liberally for the rest of my life.
These events are souring my appreciation for Starcraft, and they have been for quite some time. I began playing (SC2) because it was an honest endeavor I had to work at. The drama has ruined my enjoyment of the scene since I stopped playing the game. The last thing I really enjoy is Day[9] in his various forms, especially his old podcasts~.
On July 22 2011 15:03 Sworn wrote: Ya I agree for the most part that what EG did was absolutely HORRIBLE! Imagine if when Idra was staying in korea if one of the teams just came out of nowhere asked him to play for them and didn't even talk to EG. EG would have been furious losing their star player and it's the same for TSL. I really wish EG would issue an apology at least.
1. EG wants a top level Korean player. 2. Top level Koreans come over to NASL finals. 3. EG hands out cards seeing if anyone is interested. 4. Puma is interested and talks to EG staff, when they find out he is open to the idea of working for them, has no contract and no salary they need to compete with they lay out what they are prepared to offer, Puma is interested but he wants to be the one to talk to his coach rather then EG, EG agrees. 5. Puma talks to his coach, coach isn't impressed and thinks that Puma and EG have gone and signed behind his back. (Please note that EG and Puma haven't signed or agreed to anything yet.) 6. Coach feels disrespected and starts this whole thing with his posts. 7. The standard drama fueled shitfest occurs. 8. EG finds out about all of this. 9. Coach clarifies what he meant / what happened as mis-communications start to get cleared up (hell he even throws Puma a goodbye party) 10. EG speaks out on Lo3, saying they didn't do anything wrong and they followed their potential new players wishs. (Again note that EG and Puma still haven't signed anything still.) 11. Dramallamas continue to frolic. 12. EG opens mouth and inserts foot re: what team liquid is for (while I agree partially with them this sure as hell wasn't the time). 13. Even more shit hits the fan as TL defends one of their own. 14. I eat an orange. 15. I write this post.
So where exactly in this chain of events do you think EG crossed the line and needs to apologize?
This was all basically EG doing their best to recruit some new blood, Puma doing his best to find the best option available to him, TSL not being able to compete due to their lack of cash flow and a tragic misunderstanding between Puma and Coach Lee which started an epic drawn out shitfest.
Why exactly does there need to be a good / bad guy here?
Edit: Dammit guys I can't believe I'm about to say this with a straight face but;
On July 22 2011 22:19 LegionUK wrote: Everything Slasher has posted in this thread has proven TLO's point a 1000 times over.
Well done TLO, so much respect for you.
So that there is no confusion:
Slasher: Works for MLG, pretty decent guy. Has NOT posted in this thread. Zlasher: Sycophant, hanger-on. Has posted in this thread.
Thank you for making me look up 'sycophant' and learning its meaning. I shall apply it liberally for the rest of my life.
These events are souring my appreciation for Starcraft, and they have been for quite some time. I began playing (SC2) because it was an honest endeavor I had to work at. The drama has ruined my enjoyment of the scene since I stopped playing the game. The last thing I really enjoy is Day[9] in his various forms, especially his old podcasts~.
:[
This obession with drama is hurting E-sports, would it kill us to instead of jumping to conclusions and throwing ragefits to just wait until both sides of the story are out and the involved parties can clear up any miscommunications that may have occured?
On July 22 2011 22:25 ThatGuy89 wrote: all respect for tlo just went out the window im afraid
you mean EG fans' respect? I don't think he cares.
i was a fan of tlo just as much as i was a fan of EG - probably more in fact. But posting something like this has no use at all. Were people universally asking for TLOs opinion personally? i dont think so. With all do respect his opinion doesnt mean jack - its just a chance for all his fans to post here, and post things that they've probbaly already posted a dozen times in other threads. It just turns into a chance for everyone to insult and slander EG just beacuse someone from TL started it. This wouldnt be allowed in any other situation, but due to the way TL works sometimes, it is
Why exactly does there need to be a good / bad guy here?
Maybe EG is the hero TeamLiquid deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we’ll hunt him because he can take it. Because he’s not our hero, he is a silent guardian, a watchful protector… a dark knight
Yeah, well put TLO. Love the players, not so sure about the organization as a whole. Although I can deal with it as long as it means iNcontrol, IdrA, and Puma can continue crushing tournaments.
On July 22 2011 15:03 Sworn wrote: Ya I agree for the most part that what EG did was absolutely HORRIBLE! Imagine if when Idra was staying in korea if one of the teams just came out of nowhere asked him to play for them and didn't even talk to EG. EG would have been furious losing their star player and it's the same for TSL. I really wish EG would issue an apology at least.
1. EG wants a top level Korean player. 2. Top level Koreans come over to NASL finals. 3. EG hands out cards seeing if anyone is interested. 4. Puma is interested and talks to EG staff, when they find out he is open to the idea of working for them, has no contract and no salary they need to compete with they lay out what they are prepared to offer, Puma is interested but he wants to be the one to talk to his coach rather then EG, EG agrees. 5. Puma talks to his coach, coach isn't impressed and thinks that Puma and EG have gone and signed behind his back. (Please note that EG and Puma haven't signed or agreed to anything yet.) 6. Coach feels disrespected and starts this whole thing with his posts. 7. The standard drama fueled shitfest occurs. 8. EG finds out about all of this. 9. Coach clarifies what he meant / what happened as mis-communications start to get cleared up (hell he even throws Puma a goodbye party) 10. EG speaks out on Lo3, saying they didn't do anything wrong and they followed their potential new players wishs. (Again note that EG and Puma still haven't signed anything still.) 11. Dramallamas continue to frolic. 12. EG opens mouth and inserts foot re: what team liquid is for (while I agree partially with them this sure as hell wasn't the time). 13. Even more shit hits the fan as TL defends one of their own. 14. I eat an orange. 15. I write this post.
So where exactly in this chain of events do you think EG crossed the line and needs to apologize?
This was all basically EG doing their best to recruit some new blood, Puma doing his best to find the best option available to him, TSL not being able to compete due to their lack of cash flow and a tragic misunderstanding between Puma and Coach Lee which started an epic drawn out shitfest.
Why exactly does there need to be a good / bad guy here?
Edit: Dammit guys I can't believe I'm about to say this with a straight face but;
On July 22 2011 22:19 LegionUK wrote: Everything Slasher has posted in this thread has proven TLO's point a 1000 times over.
Well done TLO, so much respect for you.
So that there is no confusion:
Slasher: Works for MLG, pretty decent guy. Has NOT posted in this thread. Zlasher: Sycophant, hanger-on. Has posted in this thread.
Thank you for making me look up 'sycophant' and learning its meaning. I shall apply it liberally for the rest of my life.
These events are souring my appreciation for Starcraft, and they have been for quite some time. I began playing (SC2) because it was an honest endeavor I had to work at. The drama has ruined my enjoyment of the scene since I stopped playing the game. The last thing I really enjoy is Day[9] in his various forms, especially his old podcasts~.
:[
This obession with drama is hurting E-sports, would it kill us to instead of jumping to conclusions and throwing ragefits to just wait until both sides of the story are out and the involved parties can clear up any miscommunications that may have occured?
lol you got a gj for being mature for linking to that post earlyer then you posted it. gj yeah it was dirty business to not contact the team.
Why are people so god damn worked up about this? Headhunting and playerscalping is common in every high level sport there is. And its not like they stole Puma and he did not want to join and is beeing forced to play with EG. They gave him an offer HE took it. What's the problem?
On July 22 2011 22:43 Snerren wrote: Why are people so god damn worked up about this? Headhunting and playerscalping is common in every high level sport there is. And its not like they stole Puma and he did not want to join and is beeing forced to play with EG. They gave him an offer HE took it. What's the problem?
in english football its illegal for you to contact any player under contract without the consent of the team he is contracted too
I honestly dont understand why people are demanding a high moral standard, its business not religion and demanding proffessional standards is not the same as demanding a high moral standing.
There is no logical reason why EG would ever contact the coach or the team and i find the demanding proffesional standards from journalism a bit irrelevant.
Like players play the game to win, EG plays to make money and they will in the end do whatever it takes to make money like players will do what it takes to win that is the nature of business and i think people need to learn that.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
Are you really STILL going after Milkis?
Are you fucking kidding me?
Not attacking Milkis, I was attacking bad journalism, something that I explained has a "fix", in that post. But I suppose you didn't read it.
On July 22 2011 21:27 turdburgler wrote:
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
you're going to argue that a computer based organisation in 2011 should adhere to a west coast 9-5.
Should an organization adhere to West Coast 9-5? Yes, if the heads of the organization are on the West Coast
On July 22 2011 21:27 zeru wrote:
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
How hard can it be to make a short post about it? FXO does it, sixjax does it. Actually, EG are the only ones who don't. Saying its obscene to blame EG for not releasing a statement for 20(?!?!) hours and then attacking milkis for not trying to get EG's side of the story when he actually did try to get their side of the story, now that is unacceptable. Long terrible post with little logic.
EG didn't release a statement for 20 hours? Actually it was 14 hours, 7 of which a sane human being is asleep for. The next 7 hours would have been more improper considering that plans were set to appear on a more public platform AKA WoC.
Want another sports example? Why would EG have felt the need to comment on a playxp article that clearly had a few errors, especially on a player that is still in free agent state, that still is not a member of their organization. Do the Yankees officials ever comment on the player they're about to sign? How about FC Barcelona, or Manchester United? Nobody ever comments on it until the deal is done.
so you think it would have been better if some random forum user had posted an inaccurate computer generated translation of the playxp article? Translating has nothing to do with journalism. If you want to blame anyone, go after playxp. But I guess thats too hard to do for both you and for EG while Milkis is a convenient target.
Omg this is so true...
I am so glad a pro-player's voice is speaking out. Thanks TLO! Sums it up perfectly.
On July 22 2011 22:43 Snerren wrote: Why are people so god damn worked up about this? Headhunting and playerscalping is common in every high level sport there is. And its not like they stole Puma and he did not want to join and is beeing forced to play with EG. They gave him an offer HE took it. What's the problem?
in english football its illegal for you to contact any player under contract without the consent of the team he is contracted too
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
You quote Dan for your defense. Are you serious?
I already gave my retort to this claim by Dan. He's simply egging others on and FD along with Tester left oGs on their own accord. Not Lee's. They wanted out. You should know what Dan is capable of and how he works considering you've been apart of this community for a while.
Mind boggling.
You bring up journalist standards once again. Seriously? These standards you speak of are nothing but hyperbole especially in this industry. Shit like this happens all the time.
Again, Milkes isn't a journalist. Stop treating him like such.
Let's discuss Milkes Twitter comments.
Last time I checked, you are allowed to post your thoughts via Twitter on your personal account.
Twitter is one way of retrieving information and it's just that. It's a resource and nothing more.
Yes, real reporters use Twitter to break developing stories. However, no one in their right mind would view it as the actual story. It's only used for leads.
Once again, Milkes. Translator.
He translated an article on another site and brought it here. Twitter and the article he translated are two separate things.
TL made it pretty clear that nobody "ignores the rules" now.
If he is lying he deserves to be banned for saying that when the drama is happening.
lol, there's also a tl rule that says respect the old timers and since you have no idea about the history of tl and rekrul, you don't know that he has made much more outrageous claims in the past which have all turned out to be true.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
Are you really STILL going after Milkis?
Are you fucking kidding me?
Not attacking Milkis, I was attacking bad journalism, something that I explained has a "fix", in that post. But I suppose you didn't read it.
On July 22 2011 21:27 turdburgler wrote:
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
you're going to argue that a computer based organisation in 2011 should adhere to a west coast 9-5.
Should an organization adhere to West Coast 9-5? Yes, if the heads of the organization are on the West Coast
On July 22 2011 21:27 zeru wrote:
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
How hard can it be to make a short post about it? FXO does it, sixjax does it. Actually, EG are the only ones who don't. Saying its obscene to blame EG for not releasing a statement for 20(?!?!) hours and then attacking milkis for not trying to get EG's side of the story when he actually did try to get their side of the story, now that is unacceptable. Long terrible post with little logic.
EG didn't release a statement for 20 hours? Actually it was 14 hours, 7 of which a sane human being is asleep for. The next 7 hours would have been more improper considering that plans were set to appear on a more public platform AKA WoC.
Want another sports example? Why would EG have felt the need to comment on a playxp article that clearly had a few errors, especially on a player that is still in free agent state, that still is not a member of their organization. Do the Yankees officials ever comment on the player they're about to sign? How about FC Barcelona, or Manchester United? Nobody ever comments on it until the deal is done.
Scoots was awake and was tweeting with milkis and could've easily made a post right after the translation was posted. all i can see are terrible excuses for how awfully they handled basically everything regarding this issue.
But does Scoots speak 100% for the organization, or should he wait til Alex can speak as well, or wait til the more public platform exists to speak on, once accepting the public platform. Once again, all for a player that is still technically a free agent and unsigned.
If news about a trade happens in baseball for the SF Giants, and I see Bruce Bochy tweet something, do I feel entitled to an immediate statement from him? Do I feel entitled to an immediate statement from Brian Sabean (the General Manager), or do I wait until the public platform (the press conference) happens in order to hear it then.
you can't have it both ways... you say you want it to be like real sports but reporters on espn, sportsillustrated, yahoo sports, and EVERYWHERE always report about rumors of players being signed. when they get something credible (as this obviously is) they don't wait for the official press conference introducing the player to report it. they say what's going on, and this is no different.
edit: and this is just talking about the playxp article, not even the translation (on which milkis is completely blameless)
Why are people calling milkis a journalist? Is that actually his job title? I thought he was just a translator. seems like people shooting the messenger to me.
On July 22 2011 22:48 PassiveAce wrote: Why are people calling milkis a journalist? Is that actually his job title? I thought he was just a translator. seems like people shooting the messenger to me.
They absolutely are. Somehow, because Milkis is simply translating an already-completed news article from one language to another he is now as responsible as the original author?
Ridiculous. As far as the actual poaching, I blame TSL in part for not contracting their players. However, I also blame EG for not being above-board with the transaction (talking to the player directly instead of the organization) and not responding to community concerns in a prompt fashion. Shame on you.
On July 22 2011 22:43 Snerren wrote: Why are people so god damn worked up about this? Headhunting and playerscalping is common in every high level sport there is. And its not like they stole Puma and he did not want to join and is beeing forced to play with EG. They gave him an offer HE took it. What's the problem?
in english football its illegal for you to contact any player under contract without the consent of the team he is contracted too
i was just replying to the post, not specifically this situation.
EG isn't a new team to the scene. They have been around for many years and they probably want to be around for many years more, as a better team. However, the point here, is that they should have known the consequences. It's not like EG never watched how things work in Korea. SC2 and its leagues have been out for long enough time for EG to know how things operate there. They should have expected disappointment from TSL's coach and staff, they should have anticipated that interviews and statements would be made available pretty quickly. Even if EG didn't have enough time to respond to TSL coach's interview, they should have already prepared several original statements regarding the acquisition of Puma and their stance on this issue. It's obvious there are time zone differences and teams should have already taken this into account. E-sports is global, and that implies while you're sleeping, articles and interviews can pop up halfway around the globe. You simply can't use it as an excuse for being unprepared.
..
This quote rounds up my opinion on the whole subject. We can debate all we want the actual EG approaching Puma --- PuMa telling his team, but the truth is we dont totally know what happened and what PuMa really asked for, so I think its hard to debate on that.
Going for an attack on Milkis though is totally unnacceptable. I dont know what EG expected, sure you can preach all you want for objectivity in journalism but this is totally pointless if one side doesnt do his job. Even saying that such a thing (as objectivity in journalism) even exists in real sports is a pretty naive statement. If such a news would get out for any real sport you want, and one party wouldnt do its job to issue comments on the question (and Im talking even before an official statement), the journalist wouldnt put their side of the story.
tl dr.
-Its not the journalists job to get the opinion of both sides -EG should have known that this was coming and prepared something, instead of not doing anything and then go on a witch-hunt so they could put the blame on someone because they didnt do their job. -As far as I know Milkis is not even a journalist hes just a translator, which further proves how EG is just trying to find someone to point so the focus doesnt stay on them too much.
edit : for zlasher, coach lee could be the biggest asshole to ever exist, that wouldnt change the fact that EG was totally unprofessionnal regarding this issue, while they (a professional organisation), ask for a translator (pretty sure hes not a professional, not his job) to act professionally. Double standard much. Dont know how you can possibly defend that.
I am having a very hard time trying to understand what is this much of a big deal in signing an uncontracted player and I would appreciate if someone helped me with this. Yes, they could talk to coach Lee, who is someone that wouldn't force one of his players to stay in the team. Hell, he doesn't even force his contracted players to even practice. But I don't think he has a right to get mad when someone offers a contract (possibly a fat one) to an uncontracted player, even though he plays for his team.
On July 22 2011 22:43 Snerren wrote: Why are people so god damn worked up about this? Headhunting and playerscalping is common in every high level sport there is. And its not like they stole Puma and he did not want to join and is beeing forced to play with EG. They gave him an offer HE took it. What's the problem?
in english football its illegal for you to contact any player under contract without the consent of the team he is contracted too
You can approach any contracted player whose contract has less than or equal to 6 months of a time remaining without giving a fuck to his team. Bosman ruling allows that.
On July 22 2011 22:43 Snerren wrote: Why are people so god damn worked up about this? Headhunting and playerscalping is common in every high level sport there is. And its not like they stole Puma and he did not want to join and is beeing forced to play with EG. They gave him an offer HE took it. What's the problem?
In most American sports, Team A has to inform Team B of any interest in one of Team B's players. This situation is a bit different because Puma was technically a free agent (not under contract), but as none of the TSL players were under explicit contract it must be assumed that they have some kind of verbal compact that should be treated as equal to a written one.
On July 22 2011 22:43 Snerren wrote: Why are people so god damn worked up about this? Headhunting and playerscalping is common in every high level sport there is. And its not like they stole Puma and he did not want to join and is beeing forced to play with EG. They gave him an offer HE took it. What's the problem?
In most American sports, Team A has to inform Team B of any interest in one of Team B's players. This situation is a bit different because Puma was technically a free agent (not under contract), but as none of the TSL players were under explicit contract it must be assumed that they have some kind of verbal compact that should be treated as equal to a written one.
Some were under contract, some were not. PuMa was among the latter.
Thank god someone (important) posted this. I've been thinking this since the start but on my level it just results in a flame war at best. Thank you Little One. <3
The only thing that upsets me about this whole thing is how Milkis was brought on to Weapon of Choice (a EG biased show) and asked to argue his points and to be held accountable for his actions against a experienced PR person when in reality he had no reason to defend himself whatsoever.
On July 22 2011 22:52 Djagulingu wrote: I am having a very hard time trying to understand what is this much of a big deal in signing an uncontracted player and I would appreciate if someone helped me with this. Yes, they could talk to coach Lee, who is someone that wouldn't force one of his players to stay in the team. Hell, he doesn't even force his contracted players to even practice. But I don't think he has a right to get mad when someone offers a contract (possibly a fat one) to an uncontracted player, even though he plays for his team.
On July 22 2011 22:43 Snerren wrote: Why are people so god damn worked up about this? Headhunting and playerscalping is common in every high level sport there is. And its not like they stole Puma and he did not want to join and is beeing forced to play with EG. They gave him an offer HE took it. What's the problem?
in english football its illegal for you to contact any player under contract without the consent of the team he is contracted too
You can approach any contracted player whose contract has less than or equal to 6 months of a time remaining without giving a fuck to his team. Bosman ruling allows that.
the majority of times that never comes up though, because players will allow themselves to be signed again so the team they play for has a better bargaining position. and any player of any relevance doesnt sit around with only 6months left on their contract.
On July 22 2011 22:52 Djagulingu wrote: I am having a very hard time trying to understand what is this much of a big deal in signing an uncontracted player and I would appreciate if someone helped me with this. Yes, they could talk to coach Lee, who is someone that wouldn't force one of his players to stay in the team. Hell, he doesn't even force his contracted players to even practice. But I don't think he has a right to get mad when someone offers a contract (possibly a fat one) to an uncontracted player, even though he plays for his team.
On July 22 2011 22:43 Snerren wrote: Why are people so god damn worked up about this? Headhunting and playerscalping is common in every high level sport there is. And its not like they stole Puma and he did not want to join and is beeing forced to play with EG. They gave him an offer HE took it. What's the problem?
in english football its illegal for you to contact any player under contract without the consent of the team he is contracted too
You can approach any contracted player whose contract has less than or equal to 6 months of a time remaining without giving a fuck to his team. Bosman ruling allows that.
Because 40% of the people here are carebears and the other 40% of the people here don't know professional sports and so they don't realize this is rather common.
Let's not even mention in other professions where being approached by headhunters is perfectly normal as well.
Then there's the 20% normal people who realize this is perfectly fine and not wrong at all, given Puma wasn't under contract (from what I've read) and he accepted the terms to join EG, no one forced him at gunpoint. This is still a business people, the pro gamers don't play solely to entertain you.
EDIT: Also forgot to mention that hidden among this angry mob are EG/IdrA haters who just want to see EG's reputation go down.
On July 22 2011 22:52 Djagulingu wrote: I am having a very hard time trying to understand what is this much of a big deal in signing an uncontracted player and I would appreciate if someone helped me with this. Yes, they could talk to coach Lee, who is someone that wouldn't force one of his players to stay in the team. Hell, he doesn't even force his contracted players to even practice. But I don't think he has a right to get mad when someone offers a contract (possibly a fat one) to an uncontracted player, even though he plays for his team.
On July 22 2011 22:44 turdburgler wrote:
On July 22 2011 22:43 Snerren wrote: Why are people so god damn worked up about this? Headhunting and playerscalping is common in every high level sport there is. And its not like they stole Puma and he did not want to join and is beeing forced to play with EG. They gave him an offer HE took it. What's the problem?
in english football its illegal for you to contact any player under contract without the consent of the team he is contracted too
You can approach any contracted player whose contract has less than or equal to 6 months of a time remaining without giving a fuck to his team. Bosman ruling allows that.
Because 40% of the people here are carebears and the other 40% of the people here don't know professional sports and so they don't realize this is rather common.
Let's not even mention in other professions where being approached by headhunters is perfectly normal as well.
Then there's the 20% normal people who realize this is perfectly fine and not wrong at all, given Puma wasn't under contract (from what I've read) and he accepted the terms to join EG, no one forced him at gunpoint. This is still a business people, the pro gamers don't play solely to entertain you.
EDIT: Also forgot to mention that hidden among this angry mob are EG/IdrA haters who just want to see EG's reputation go down.
and maybe just a couple people that think honor means something to korean teams where esports was birthed.
TLO ive never been a big fan of yours until now but you just said everything i was thinking. Given the roots of how progaming evolved into how it is now, i find it hard to believe any old bw fan can be happy with how this whole thing turned out.
Just be careful when you are around EG management or on any of their shows, you might just get ambushed.
TLO, you are one of my favorite players in the SCII scene, but I have to say that this thread by itself is nothing but a seed of hate, as the thread has wonderfully demonstrated.
You should be glad if you feel like you are in the right place with TeamLiquid, but there might be more appropriate ways to express this than through bashing EG.
I may be missing parts of the story, but I think they fully lived up to their name. Even if what they did constitutes rat-bastardary, that's just business. EG needs to do what it needs to in order to make money. Puma is going to get EG much more press both in Korea and internationally. Puma will be able to sell EG's brand in a way that even IdrA couldn't do. Additionally, the more EG wins, the more sponsors the team will get, and, in the end, regardless of how manner the SC2 scene is supposed to be, money will trump even that. TLO is my favorite player in and out of SC2, but if a team offered me $5,000 to call him a piece-of-shit-noob in-game, and to dance marines in his base, I would take the money.
It was really dirty how EG handle this. Waiting like 18 hours to make a statement so they could do it on WoC, a show that is sponsored half by EG/Scoots (?) and have all EG's sponsors behind it. And then AG comes on and is being a total tool never letting Milkis (a guy that isn't even representing TSL so it is sooo one sided) his point before getting cut off and djwheat didn't do shit. I fucking hate how he was twisting everything and starts rabbling about the BW scene, a scene he has no fucking clue about. But yeah good job getting the attention away from how fucking poorly you approached PuMa and the other players on NASL.
Too bad someone like TheWinD, Nazgul or FXOBoSs couldn't join the discussion when AG started to rant about the Korea and internationall scene and BW etc.
Also, fucking cheap shot attacking Milkis.
On July 22 2011 23:01 Oldern wrote: TLO, you are one of my favorite players in the SCII scene, but I have to say that this thread by itself is nothing but a seed of hate, as the thread has wonderfully demonstrated.
This is not a thread, it's a blog and it's a blog on his "own" website, he can write whatever he wants here.
Milkis is first and foremost a fan, a community member, a contributer to ESPORTS. He is not a "journalist", he is also not "just a translator". Contrary to some other entities in our scene, he doesn't do things only for the money and the business, but because he wants to contribute and because he thinks people might find the things that he does (=mostly translating) useful. Some imbeciles might not realize this, some shady people try to turn attention and blame on our good contributor here for their business sakes. Luckily, the StarCraft scene is quite bright and will not be blinded by these shades of distraction. These parties will get what they deserve, sooner or later. Don't turn on Milkis for no reason, you're going down.
On July 22 2011 22:59 Sqq wrote: If a player in any sports are not contracted, the team does not have to contact the team to talk to the player. Its how it works.
I think some are kind of narrow in their perspective of "how it works". This is South Korea, and they have apparently handled things another way. That is probably about to change very soon - but don't be so fast to judge what is considered right or wrong in another culture.
That is why it is so awesome to have Milkis to provide us with some insight as to why they think it is wrong, and why they have so far handled it another way. Ty Milkis.
Also thank you TLO for writing up a very good summary of this.
On July 22 2011 23:05 mbr2321 wrote: I may be missing parts of the story, but I think they fully lived up to their name. Even if what they did constitutes rat-bastardary, that's just business. EG needs to do what it needs to in order to make money. Puma is going to get EG much more press both in Korea and internationally. Puma will be able to sell EG's brand in a way that even IdrA couldn't do. Additionally, the more EG wins, the more sponsors the team will get, and, in the end, regardless of how manner the SC2 scene is supposed to be, money will trump even that. TLO is my favorite player in and out of SC2, but if a team offered me $5,000 to call him a piece-of-shit-noob in-game, and to dance marines in his base, I would take the money.
That makes you a sad spineless individual. Just like EG. Get morals or humanity is doomed. How much would it cost me to get you to call your own mother a whore and shit in her bed?
I see there are a lot of people (in other threads perhaps) arguing that this is smart business practice by EG, and pointing out that contracting free agents like this must be OK because it's common in other sports. I heartily disagree. There is no comparison between eSports and other sports. On top of that, if this is the kind of "common sports practice" that businesses hope to bring to the Starcraft scene, then I hope that eSports stays as different as possible from mainstream sports.
Sure, EG came out of this with PuMa, one of the strongest terrans in the scene, but the PR backlash is undeniable. We're not even seeing the brunt of it - I hear over in the Korean scene there is much more outrage. eSports dealings have traditionally been infused with a very high level of sportsmanship. Shady business like this, while legal, does no good for the atmosphere of SC.
Compare the way EG dealt with TSL and the way FXO dealt with fOu. EG talks to PuMa directly (and apparently to other players as well, in hopes of goading just one top player into leaving their team). FXO builds up a strong relationship over time, and when fOu asks FXO to sponsor their team, a strong global cooperation is formed.
I don't think this mindset is just the trappings of the old BW days which should be discarded. I think teams should head forward with a spirit of global cooperation rather than businesslike competition.
EDIT: In any case, I think TLO has said it pretty brilliantly (albeit at some points a bit vindictively).
On July 22 2011 22:59 Sqq wrote: If a player in any sports are not contracted, the team does not have to contact the team to talk to the player. Its how it works.
If a Team in any sport is trying to get a high profile player, news outlets like playxp will report about it as soon as they have a credible source (which TSL manager is). It's how it work.
Yet EG is all hurt about that. They seem to be professionals when it comes to contracts but don't understand how media works.
Could EG do what they did? Yes Was it respectfull: No . Most people are just discussing this part. Good for Puma! The way this was handled is just terribad, overlooking cultural differencies.
On July 22 2011 23:06 zere wrote: Milkis is first and foremost a fan, a community member, a contributer to ESPORTS. He is not a "journalist", he is also not "just a translator". Contrary to some other entities in our scene, he doesn't do things only for the money and the business, but because he wants to contribute and because he thinks people might find the things that he does (=mostly translating) useful. Some imbeciles might not realize this, some shady people try to turn attention and blame on our good contributor here for their business sakes. Luckily, the StarCraft scene is quite bright and will not be blinded by these shades of distraction. These parties will get what they deserve, sooner or later. Don't turn on Milkis for no reason, you're going down.
I think this whole affair shows quite the opposite and that the starcraft scene is rather blind to how business works. I think its unfair to blame milkis i would agree with that but the EG director was making a more broad point.
Korea doesnt have sole rights on SC2, why should the international scene adhere to what the korean culture thinks is right. Korea should adapt to the rest of the world not the other way around if they are too stupid to contract their best player they deserve to lose him.
I honestly am suprised and dissapointed at how much hate EG is getting for making a perfectly reasonable and fair business transaction. Im sorry if people think the world is honourable and all sunshine and rainbows but its not. So congratulations EG on picking up an awesome player and i hope to see him play in more foreign events .
On July 22 2011 20:14 Liquid`TLO wrote:The news went out before you wanted it and guess what it's because you didn't talk to TSL. Even though they had weeks after NASL to do so.
Dosent seem like TLO is up to date with why they dident contact TSL in that time... they were waiting for Puma to talk to him first as they have already said on WoC.
Dident think TLO was the kind of guy to post pure hate blogs that dont offer anything good but just makes it even worse.
Just flushed every single bit of respect i had for TLO down the drain. seriously, as a popular figure i expected you to share your opinios regarding EG that will atleast include their side of the story, and explain yourself from EG perspective as well, but instead all you gave was a totally one sided POV That included only the negative things That in your opinion EG did "wrong", While IRL EG did absolutely nothing wrong regarding this situation.
and all the milkies "accusing" thingy is also complitely retarded, AG Mentioned in the end of WoC that he was sorry if milkies felt accused by him (when IRL he wasnt accused on anything, he just overreacted when AG asked him why he havnt brought any statement from EG' side) but guess what ? YOU and every other EG hater just comfortably forgot that part and saw AG statement as a 100% malicious Accusition.
Dident think TLO was the kind of guy to post pure hate blogs that dont offer anything good but just makes it even worse.
On July 22 2011 23:14 Zaros wrote: I honestly am suprised and dissapointed at how much hate EG is getting for making a perfectly reasonable and fair business transaction. Im sorry if people think the world is honourable and all sunshine and rainbows but its not. So congratulations EG on picking up an awesome player and i hope to see him play in more foreign events .
The world of SC is imperfect. But is that because it intrinsically must be so, or because certain people/organizations have made it so? And do we wish it to be "sunshine and rainbows," or are we OK with "reasonable" business transactions like this all over the place?
Let's not assume this is OK just because it doesn't cross any written line.
I thought the move itself was questionable. Then, WoC is used as some sort of EG propaganda channel to attack a key member of this community who just did his job. I guess it was to be expected, but it is unfortunate all neutrality is lost on WoC and affiliated shows for me. What a travesty.
Adhering to my sig, I tried not to touch with ten feet pole, and I do feel impartial about whole PumA debate, but I guess I have to say this. No matter how legal or "right" they were, their PR conduct was fucking horrible.
While I did not see the forementioned WoC, I do get the gist that they attacked Milkis's behaviour. And resorting to ad hominem for any of your arguments is the most terrible thing one could do in my eyes.
Seriously- in the past we actually did give a shit about contributors.
On July 22 2011 23:06 zere wrote: Milkis is first and foremost a fan, a community member, a contributer to ESPORTS. He is not a "journalist", he is also not "just a translator". Contrary to some other entities in our scene, he doesn't do things only for the money and the business, but because he wants to contribute and because he thinks people might find the things that he does (=mostly translating) useful. Some imbeciles might not realize this, some shady people try to turn attention and blame on our good contributor here for their business sakes. Luckily, the StarCraft scene is quite bright and will not be blinded by these shades of distraction. These parties will get what they deserve, sooner or later. Don't turn on Milkis for no reason, you're going down.
I think this whole affair shows quite the opposite and that the starcraft scene is rather blind to how business works. I think its unfair to blame milkis i would agree with that but the EG director was making a more broad point.
Korea doesnt have sole rights on SC2, why should the international scene adhere to what the korean culture thinks is right. Korea should adapt to the rest of the world not the other way around if they are too stupid to contract their best player they deserve to lose him.
I honestly am suprised and dissapointed at how much hate EG is getting for making a perfectly reasonable and fair business transaction. Im sorry if people think the world is honourable and all sunshine and rainbows but its not. So congratulations EG on picking up an awesome player and i hope to see him play in more foreign events .
^ This ^
Clearly if Esports are going to continue and grow then this sort of behavior will happen more and more. Honestly, if EG doesn't have to go through anyone but Puma in order to sign Puma then why should they take additional steps? If the players haven't signed a contract with a team there is absolutely no point in talking with the team instead of the player.
That being said, good manners dictate that they eventually notify the team of their intent but there is nothing wrong with gauging the player's interest first.
People on here just don't understand how sports teams work and believe it or not Esports are similar and will become more similar to real sports in that respect.
On July 22 2011 23:09 infinitestory wrote: I see there are a lot of people (in other threads perhaps) arguing that this is smart business practice by EG, and pointing out that contracting free agents like this must be OK because it's common in other sports. I heartily disagree. There is no comparison between eSports and other sports. On top of that, if this is the kind of "common sports practice" that businesses hope to bring to the Starcraft scene, then I hope that eSports stays as different as possible from mainstream sports.
Sure, EG came out of this with PuMa, one of the strongest terrans in the scene, but the PR backlash is undeniable. We're not even seeing the brunt of it - I hear over in the Korean scene there is much more outrage. eSports dealings have traditionally been infused with a very high level of sportsmanship. Shady business like this, while legal, does no good for the atmosphere of SC.
Compare the way EG dealt with TSL and the way FXO dealt with fOu. EG talks to PuMa directly (and apparently to other players as well, in hopes of goading just one top player into leaving their team). FXO builds up a strong relationship over time, and when fOu asks FXO to sponsor their team, a strong global cooperation is formed.
I don't think this mindset is just the trappings of the old BW days which should be discarded. I think teams should head forward with a spirit of global cooperation rather than businesslike competition.
EDIT: In any case, I think TLO has said it pretty brilliantly (albeit at some points a bit vindictively).
I wholeheartedly agree with this. For the people who say "oh please, there was no contract, EG isn't wrong, Coach Lee should have had a contract" -
First and foremost, if these korean teams were running under a utopian concept, is that not better than our jaded way? And to have a foreign team break in and do damage to their ideals, I do not doubt the korean netizens and SC2 progamers are more wary of foreign teams now. Especially EG - I can't imagine the koreans having a good view of EG at all in any way. I hope that they don't close themselves off, but I do not blame them for having a bad view of EG.
On July 22 2011 20:14 Liquid`TLO wrote: EG keeps acting morally questionably, without really caring about consequences towards third parties.
Meanwhile, some other teams have players with no contract and no salary practicing X hours a day and nobody seems to mind.
How dare EG offer financial stability to a player without really caring about consequences towards third parties?
These people are working damn hard to GET sponsors and GET a salary. They are working as a team, giving up materials and time just to achieve it. To have a foreign entity come in and just stomp on that ideal without giving the team their due respect is just wrong. It's not even about talking to Coach Lee. It's about giving the entire team the heads up.
On July 22 2011 23:09 infinitestory wrote: I see there are a lot of people (in other threads perhaps) arguing that this is smart business practice by EG, and pointing out that contracting free agents like this must be OK because it's common in other sports. I heartily disagree. There is no comparison between eSports and other sports. On top of that, if this is the kind of "common sports practice" that businesses hope to bring to the Starcraft scene, then I hope that eSports stays as different as possible from mainstream sports.
Sure, EG came out of this with PuMa, one of the strongest terrans in the scene, but the PR backlash is undeniable. We're not even seeing the brunt of it - I hear over in the Korean scene there is much more outrage. eSports dealings have traditionally been infused with a very high level of sportsmanship. Shady business like this, while legal, does no good for the atmosphere of SC.
Compare the way EG dealt with TSL and the way FXO dealt with fOu. EG talks to PuMa directly (and apparently to other players as well, in hopes of goading just one top player into leaving their team). FXO builds up a strong relationship over time, and when fOu asks FXO to sponsor their team, a strong global cooperation is formed.
I don't think this mindset is just the trappings of the old BW days which should be discarded. I think teams should head forward with a spirit of global cooperation rather than businesslike competition.
EDIT: In any case, I think TLO has said it pretty brilliantly (albeit at some points a bit vindictively).
100% agree. In fact, I posted something just a little while ago, and I feel it actually makes more sense re-posting the majority of it it here, so forgive the reclyed text, but I think it fits better on topic here:
I will simply say I won't support EG. People too often think that new enterprises have to develop in a classical model. I absolutely don't believe this. Furthermore, everything I've ever seen from EG, from it's decisions to it's players statements has been very passive-aggressive, usually done in bad taste, and morally unacceptable for me. And it just gets old in my opinion, among other things.
Since myself, as an individual, won't support them, I will actually do my best to intelligently not support their sponsors. I say intelligently, because some of their sponsors actually also sponsor other great things, or great things in the community. When I look at e-sports as a product, I have to look at not just what I am getting but how I am getting it. Were my e-sports sneakers made by a 4 year old in a sweatshop? Geez, maybe I wont support that anymore. Harsh metaphor, but I'm tired and it makes the point. Of course, you can't have this ideology with everything, i.e. I'm not going to stop using my cellphone because it's impractical, even if people have to mine materials in horrible conditions to make them. The biggest point is, I'm going to try to support and or do what I think is right, mitigating the ethical damage the best I can... I would sincerely hope individuals as well companies or associations would take the same stance or philosophies. But again, just my opinion here and how I feel about things.
EDIT: Nice to hear it from someone I would consider a "Pillar of the Community". The phrase gets thrown around a lot, and IMO, some of these other "Pillars" are a lot more like crumbling sandcastles in my eyes.
It boggles my mind that some people are still arguing, "Puma wasn't under a contract, so what's the problem?" That's not the point! Yes, EG did nothing wrong legally, and I don't think anyone thinks that they did. They were culturally insensitive and went into talks with a 19 year old player who was on a team without first contacting the coach, obviously not understanding that this was not the proper route to take to maintain a positive relationship with TSL / the Korean scene. They should have talked to the coach, as the representative of the team, first. AG kept talking about the "international standards" of player recruitment last night, but I felt like he really meant "western standards." Eastern gaming culture is different than western gaming culture in significant ways, and this would be one of them.
Now, all of this would have been somewhat OK if EG had just apologized for not realizing that they should have contacted the team first, but they continue to stand behind this idea that the blame is evenly distributed between the two teams (or perhaps not even 50/50, as AG said last night? I'm not sure whether he means that EG is more to blame or TSL is, but the latter would be totally ridiculous).
Even though there was no legal obligation to contact TSL first, it was the right thing to do. TSL had given Puma shelter and food for ten months while he trained to become the player he is today. EG could have at least tried to contact the team before trying to poach him; at the very least, they could have apologized for doing what is obviously (and perhaps unintentionally) a disrespectful gesture towards TSL and the Korean scene.
On July 22 2011 23:06 zere wrote: Milkis is first and foremost a fan, a community member, a contributer to ESPORTS. He is not a "journalist", he is also not "just a translator". Contrary to some other entities in our scene, he doesn't do things only for the money and the business, but because he wants to contribute and because he thinks people might find the things that he does (=mostly translating) useful. Some imbeciles might not realize this, some shady people try to turn attention and blame on our good contributor here for their business sakes. Luckily, the StarCraft scene is quite bright and will not be blinded by these shades of distraction. These parties will get what they deserve, sooner or later. Don't turn on Milkis for no reason, you're going down.
I think this whole affair shows quite the opposite and that the starcraft scene is rather blind to how business works. I think its unfair to blame milkis i would agree with that but the EG director was making a more broad point.
Korea doesnt have sole rights on SC2, why should the international scene adhere to what the korean culture thinks is right. Korea should adapt to the rest of the world not the other way around if they are too stupid to contract their best player they deserve to lose him.
I honestly am suprised and dissapointed at how much hate EG is getting for making a perfectly reasonable and fair business transaction. Im sorry if people think the world is honourable and all sunshine and rainbows but its not. So congratulations EG on picking up an awesome player and i hope to see him play in more foreign events .
^ This ^
Clearly if Esports are going to continue and grow then this sort of behavior will happen more and more. Honestly, if EG doesn't have to go through anyone but Puma in order to sign Puma then why should they take additional steps? If the players haven't signed a contract with a team there is absolutely no point in talking with the team instead of the player.
That being said, good manners dictate that they eventually notify the team of their intent but there is nothing wrong with gauging the player's interest first.
People on here just don't understand how sports teams work and believe it or not Esports are similar and will become more similar to real sports in that respect.
Hurt myself biting my tongue when the original was posted. But to have someone quote it positively.... i cannot bear it!
why should the international scene adhere to what the korean culture thinks is right. Korea should adapt to the rest of the world not the other way around if they are too stupid to contract their best player they deserve to lose him.
such sad human beings populate the earth. Korea birthed esports and this is how you treat your mother. You are stealing from her purse. Calling her stupid for not locking it. And then saying sorry mom this is how the world is.
Im sorry if people think the world is honourable and all sunshine and rainbows but its not.
Im sorry there arn't more people that wish it was. Honor is a concept lost on business.
Clearly if Esports are going to continue and grow then this sort of behavior will happen more and more.
why do you have so little faith in humanity? dont you think something like team loyalty is commendable?
If the players haven't signed a contract with a team there is absolutely no point in talking with the team instead of the player.
except being a good and upfront organization and not getting flack from the community.
Well said TLO. It seems EG is doing something controversial every month. I was still on their "side" for the majority of this until Alex attacked Milkis. That was it - attacking a community member for doing nothing but volunteer is low and pathetic. I for one am done with following EG. They have some of my fav players, but I am done supporting the team.
Edit:
On July 22 2011 23:41 Torte de Lini wrote: I think the overall issue is that EG was late with a PR and then one came out without their submitted view, they came down hard on the messenger boy.
On July 22 2011 23:41 Torte de Lini wrote: I think the overall issue is that EG was late with a PR and then one came out without their submitted view, they came down hard on the messenger boy.
On July 22 2011 23:23 MrCon wrote: yeah, I wonder how did he won 50k$.
Good thing he won that tournament too, otherwise he'd still have $0 in his wallet like all those other unpaid players which you don't hear about. And when those can't get to Code S, all they have left is the army. But hey, they're already used to live in baracks and sleep in bunk beds
On July 22 2011 23:41 Torte de Lini wrote: I think the overall issue is that EG was late with a PR and then one came out without their submitted view, they came down hard on the messenger boy.
They haven't signed the guy yet, how early do you want them to announce that they did?
On July 22 2011 23:49 Torte de Lini wrote: Yes, a double exactly! Give me a medal! It's just a blame game. I'm surprised Puma isn't at all included in any issues.
If Puma said let me talk to my team about it then the first thing he said was im moving to EG he is to blame as much. Everyone should have agreed that 2 teams and 1 player needed to have a discussion.
Wow ! That took a few pages but im glad EVERYONE is now in agreement ! You all show incredible maturity by finding a way to agree even though your thoughts may differ slightly on certain details. Go give yourself a round of aplause I love you guys ! What we should take away from this :
EG will do better next time by not trusting a young inexperienced kid with important news, taking less time to do damage control, and getting to know the culture/putting themselves in the others shoe so to speak - I think any team would have reacted the way Lee did !
Puma will know better next time, and will make better judgment calls @ the people he knows ( lee ) and how his community will react with their traditions and way of doing things.
Lee will treat his players better ( he is allready giving them contracts ) and will contact the concerned parrties before criticizing them, or voicing his fustrations/anger towards a player or team publicly !
Together now ... FOR EEEEEEEEEEEE - SPORTS '' Think of the children .... Oh why wont anyone think of the children !''
EDIT :
On July 22 2011 23:51 Lotar wrote:
Good thing he won that tournament too, otherwise he'd still have $0 in his wallet like all those other unpaid players which you don't hear about. And when those can't get to Code S, all they have left is the army. But hey, they're already used to live in baracks and sleep in bunk beds .
It is also possible that he may have felt pressured ( if only by his concience ) to give some/all his prize money as those two other players ( I forget who it was .. clide maybe ? ) had given back the money they recieved ( sort of a bonus if I understood well as they dont get a salary ) to help with their teams finances. Imagine that ! Im pretty sure their money combined was no where near as much as puma got from nasl so you can imagine what puma felt. Just imagine here you are in a house where youve all recieved pretty much the same training. The few who recieved money gave it back to help further their ''cause''. You win a butload of cash and you dont want to give any ... :o ...
THIS IS TOTALLY HYPOTHETICAL ! But you have to admit its an interesting thought, the position he may have been in IF ... IF he didnt want to give any money back ! Since of course it was up to him !
On July 22 2011 23:41 Torte de Lini wrote: I think the overall issue is that EG was late with a PR and then one came out without their submitted view, they came down hard on the messenger boy.
They haven't signed the guy yet, how early do you want them to announce that they did?
So?
Puma still leaves TSL and the repercussion still occur. Blame PlayXP then, the translator does only what is written. There are no other duties but to accurately translate what is said.
And if the idea that Puma wasn't signed yet is true and it is that simple or obvious, why wasn't it said several hours after the article released? If EG has a translator, why aren't they going after playxp?
On July 22 2011 23:06 zere wrote: Milkis is first and foremost a fan, a community member, a contributer to ESPORTS. He is not a "journalist", he is also not "just a translator". Contrary to some other entities in our scene, he doesn't do things only for the money and the business, but because he wants to contribute and because he thinks people might find the things that he does (=mostly translating) useful. Some imbeciles might not realize this, some shady people try to turn attention and blame on our good contributor here for their business sakes. Luckily, the StarCraft scene is quite bright and will not be blinded by these shades of distraction. These parties will get what they deserve, sooner or later. Don't turn on Milkis for no reason, you're going down.
I think this whole affair shows quite the opposite and that the starcraft scene is rather blind to how business works. I think its unfair to blame milkis i would agree with that but the EG director was making a more broad point.
Korea doesnt have sole rights on SC2, why should the international scene adhere to what the korean culture thinks is right. Korea should adapt to the rest of the world not the other way around if they are too stupid to contract their best player they deserve to lose him.
I honestly am suprised and dissapointed at how much hate EG is getting for making a perfectly reasonable and fair business transaction. Im sorry if people think the world is honourable and all sunshine and rainbows but its not. So congratulations EG on picking up an awesome player and i hope to see him play in more foreign events .
The fact that ''this is how business usually work'' doesnt change the fact that ESports is (I hope to believe) different from traditional sports, and people like me would like to believe that we can steer away from this ''how business usually is'' in order to make it a sport where business is not only about making money.
As for your argument about Korea having sole rights on SC2, you are correct, they dont. BUT, BUT PuMa is a Korean, and was on a Korean team, so am I the only one who believes that, in this situation, it would have been the respectful and correct (and no, I havent said legal, I know what they did was legal) thing to do to contact TSL before going to talk to PuMa (and multiple other players), because its how it is in Korea. Im not talking about a US team going for a US player here, im talking about respecting other cultures and the way people do things over there if you go in that country (or in that instance get players from said country)
It was a good business transaction, sure, it gets them exposure, but in the end it was handled quite terribly, but yeah sure it was legal and if thats all that matters to you, then Im not sure I want to be part of that ''esport'' that you describe.
And all this ''legal is not the only important thing'' coming to you from a law student........
Bolded part of your text made me laugh, I doubt anyone believes the world is totally honourable (as we could see from that recent EG/PuMa thing), but is it really too much to ask for a little bit of honour.
To me, thats not even the biggest issue. The whole PR thing afterwards and the ''lets blame Milkis cause we fucked up'' is the big thing.
With all due respect TLO. As much as I love you - what you're saying is bullshit. A leak-article pops out, gets translated, but it's a LEAK - Puma isn't signed yet, they DID WANT to talk to the coaches, they got caught off guard as the process was still ongoing. Not sure about your business experience but you're presenting some utopian views on how they should have handled it. MAYBE they could do better, maybe faster, but the player acquisition doesn't look shady at all as well as the whole mess isn't their fault - shit like that's gonna happen as long as various media keep leaking inaccurate info before things actually happen and before official statements of both parties are presented. They rushed to the coach with breaking news before EG did and created unnecessary drama. It's just low.I wouldn't blame Milkies but he could at least add that 'it's not confirmed' or something. I run a portal site where we translate A LOT of stuff everyday and we are aware of the consequences of our translations. We tell people how it is when something's uncertain, we can distinguish between what's real and official and what's a rumor. I still don't blame him (neither did Alex) but I totally get Alex's point of view.
On July 23 2011 00:03 h-a-r-v wrote: With all due respect TLO. As much as I love you - what you're saying is bullshit. A leak-article pops out, gets translated, but it's a LEAK - Puma isn't signed yet, they DID WANT to talk to the coaches, they got caught off guard as the process was still ongoing. Not sure about your business experience but you're presenting some utopian views on how they should have handled it. MAYBE they could do better, maybe faster, but the player acquisition doesn't look shady at all as well as the whole mess isn't their fault - shit like that's gonna happen as long as various media keep leaking inaccurate info before things actually happen and before official statements of both parties are presented. They rushed to the coach with breaking news before EG did and created unnecessary drama. It's just low.I wouldn't blame Milkies but he could at least add that 'it's not confirmed' or something. I run a portal site where we translate A LOT of stuff everyday and we are aware of the consequences of our translations. We tell people how it is when something's uncertain, we can distinguish between what's real and official and what's a rumor. I still don't blame him (neither did Alex) but I totally get Alex's point of view.
It's not even a real leak... Puma informs TSL that he leaves for EG. EG didn't tell TSL to not say anything about it til day x. TSL reveals that the release Puma because he is going to EG. Where exactly did the leak happen?
EG is not the one who decides when TSL makes things public, and given the way they approached Puma they could be very sure that TSL wouldn't be considerate and should have prepared accordingly.
And what's about this stuff of it not being confirmed or just being a rumour? TSL Headcoach Lee is a super credible source and nothing he said turned out to be wrong (except for maybe the technicality that PuMa didn't sign the contract yet)
I really find it amusing that there is always this notion of having the community having "utopian" ideas about how e-sports business should work but at the same time a few managers seem to have even more utopian ideas how e-sports media should work.
Now i have no experience in player transfers and that sort of stuff but this is how this works in my head:
Puma's skill = high Puma's income = low Puma's contract = questionable/inexistent
Dream world: Hi TSL coach, i'm interested in getting one of your best players, how about .. Puma ? TSL coach: Yeah dude, let me talk to him about it, i so want to get rid of this highly skilled player that i underpay. I doubt he will want 3k $ a month and the oportunity to see the world, travel around for your team and play in big tournaments around the world. I think he will stay here for $500 a month, train all day and play against the toughest oponents in this 2 tournaments. But i'll give it a try anyway .. you never know.
Real world: Hi TSL coach, i'm interested in getting one of your best players ... TSL coach: GTFO
The way to do it is:
Yo Puma ! Check this Bling bling ! You want some ? I think you deserve this (...) Interested ? How's with your current contract ? I have to buy you from anybody ? Ok. Sign this and your ass is mine.
If your team has players who's skill is just too high for the current income tie them down with a contract. How on earth would TSL give away their ace player if EG contacted their manager instead ?
I don't think Alex Garfield would be perfectly ok if another team was recruiting an EG player without Scott Smith (SirScoots) knowing about it. Presumably Garfield would blame Smith for not having a tight enough leash on his players. I suppose Garfield would claim that he would have no ill feelings toward the recruiting team but I find that hard to believe. He knows what a manager's role is, no matter if it's Korean culture or American culture. He knows that when a manager gets bypassed, things have gotten fucked up. You can blame the manager and player, and you can also blame the recruiter who knows exactly what he's doing when bypassing the manager.
In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught.
I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team.
This is how sports work... if lets say a fotball player was under some team with no contract or salary, then it would be ok (in the "real" world of sports) to just contact the player directly
If Puma had a contract I'm sure EG never would try to "steal" him.
Good for Puma, that someone out there wants to give him a contract. I dont think you guy realize how though it is to be a korean sc2 gamer. Still BW is bigger, that is because of things like this (teams, sponsors etc)..
EG may have some good and entertaining players but it really tarnishes their reputations (at least, those who don't tarnish it themselves) to have shit like this happen way too frequently for a professional SC team.
On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I don't think Alex Garfield would be perfectly ok if another team was recruiting an EG player without Scott Smith (SirScoots) knowing about it. Presumably Garfield would blame Smith for not having a tight enough leash on his players. I suppose Garfield would claim that he would have no ill feelings toward the recruiting team but I find that hard to believe. He knows what a manager's role is, no matter if it's Korean culture or American culture. He knows that when a manager gets bypassed, things have gotten fucked up. You can blame the manager and player, and you can also blame the recruiter who knows exactly what he's doing when bypassing the manager.
In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught.
I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team.
Good to see you are so informed in the inner workings of the TSL team that your aware of the discussions between Puma, his team mates and his coach. Can we get a transcript?
On July 22 2011 22:52 Djagulingu wrote: I am having a very hard time trying to understand what is this much of a big deal in signing an uncontracted player and I would appreciate if someone helped me with this. Yes, they could talk to coach Lee, who is someone that wouldn't force one of his players to stay in the team. Hell, he doesn't even force his contracted players to even practice. But I don't think he has a right to get mad when someone offers a contract (possibly a fat one) to an uncontracted player, even though he plays for his team.
On July 22 2011 22:44 turdburgler wrote:
On July 22 2011 22:43 Snerren wrote: Why are people so god damn worked up about this? Headhunting and playerscalping is common in every high level sport there is. And its not like they stole Puma and he did not want to join and is beeing forced to play with EG. They gave him an offer HE took it. What's the problem?
in english football its illegal for you to contact any player under contract without the consent of the team he is contracted too
You can approach any contracted player whose contract has less than or equal to 6 months of a time remaining without giving a fuck to his team. Bosman ruling allows that.
Because 40% of the people here are carebears and the other 40% of the people here don't know professional sports and so they don't realize this is rather common.
Let's not even mention in other professions where being approached by headhunters is perfectly normal as well.
Then there's the 20% normal people who realize this is perfectly fine and not wrong at all, given Puma wasn't under contract (from what I've read) and he accepted the terms to join EG, no one forced him at gunpoint. This is still a business people, the pro gamers don't play solely to entertain you.
EDIT: Also forgot to mention that hidden among this angry mob are EG/IdrA haters who just want to see EG's reputation go down.
I pretty much agree with you here. While any PR after the signing of Puma may not have been handled perfectly, there was nothing inherently wrong or underhanded about EG asking Puma to join them. They didn't have to ask TSL's permission, or even give them a heads up. That's really not how businesses and contracts work; it's not like asking mommy and daddy for a playdate.
On July 23 2011 00:11 johanhar wrote: This is how sports work... if lets say a fotball player was under some team with no contract or salary, then it would be ok (in the "real" world of sports) to just contact the player directly
No, it's not. In sports, a free agent is known by everyone to be a free agent. In the SC2 scene, any player can decide for himself when he wants to be a free agent and he can tell as many or as few people as he wants. The solution is not just having a contract. The solution is having a contract and having a governing body to enforce some rules on how players and teams interact with each other. The whole contract discussion within this issue is irrelevant bullshit.
Tyler: I think Alex takes that into account. They've been running the team for long enough to know that. Would they be happy? Hell no. But I'm sure they know how it's like and probably that's why they have good relationships with their players as he talked about + keep them satisfied enough with their contract covenants. And I agree, was just about to reply that to TBO btw. - I would reserve some blame for Puma. The kid should have kept his mouth shut and let the team do the talking.
TBO: as above + yeah, EG might talk to the coach first but... Puma wasn't signed with TSL, thus he was deciding for himself in that case and his choice is all that matters here. The fact Koreans didn't sign anyone is their problem and apparently Puma didn't benefit from that and didn't feel bonded to them enough to send EG to the coach first when approached. We talk 'bout e-sports, not the Shaolin Temple. No one had to go to the master and talk about his disciple.
On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I don't think Alex Garfield would be perfectly ok if another team was recruiting an EG player without Scott Smith (SirScoots) knowing about it. Presumably Garfield would blame Smith for not having a tight enough leash on his players. I suppose Garfield would claim that he would have no ill feelings toward the recruiting team but I find that hard to believe. He knows what a manager's role is, no matter if it's Korean culture or American culture. He knows that when a manager gets bypassed, things have gotten fucked up. You can blame the manager and player, and you can also blame the recruiter who knows exactly what he's doing when bypassing the manager.
In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught.
I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team.
Good to see you are so informed in the inner workings of the TSL team that your aware of the discussions between Puma, his team mates and his coach. Can we get a transcript?
What the fuck is this? If you doubt something I said, point it out. If you're trying to write a joke, it's not funny. You just come off as an ignorant asshole.
On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I don't think Alex Garfield would be perfectly ok if another team was recruiting an EG player without Scott Smith (SirScoots) knowing about it. Presumably Garfield would blame Smith for not having a tight enough leash on his players. I suppose Garfield would claim that he would have no ill feelings toward the recruiting team but I find that hard to believe. He knows what a manager's role is, no matter if it's Korean culture or American culture. He knows that when a manager gets bypassed, things have gotten fucked up. You can blame the manager and player, and you can also blame the recruiter who knows exactly what he's doing when bypassing the manager.
In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught.
I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team.
I agree, for 1 EG would have reacted the same way Lee did so they shouldnt act suprised he is disapointed/mad. 2. Of course it would have been better if they would have talked to the manager but then the deal would NEVER HAVE HAPPEND ! If ever the managers had wind that some team was offering a better deal to their player they would have done EXACTLY what they are doing now '' Crysis-mode-everybody-signs-a-contract''. And Puma would still be with TSL without a salary but with a binding contract making it harder for him to leave.3. I totally agree that Puma should take some blame. People seem to forget the choice was ultimatly his. He also was the one that said ( according to EG ) '' Let me talk to Lee ''. Leaving EG to beleive (naively) that the coach would just be totally fine letting go of a player he invested in and trained.
On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I don't think Alex Garfield would be perfectly ok if another team was recruiting an EG player without Scott Smith (SirScoots) knowing about it. Presumably Garfield would blame Smith for not having a tight enough leash on his players. I suppose Garfield would claim that he would have no ill feelings toward the recruiting team but I find that hard to believe. He knows what a manager's role is, no matter if it's Korean culture or American culture. He knows that when a manager gets bypassed, things have gotten fucked up. You can blame the manager and player, and you can also blame the recruiter who knows exactly what he's doing when bypassing the manager.
In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught.
I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team.
It sounds as if TSL's hold on its players is shoddy at best. You have to remember, Puma was under no official contract on TSL, so he was free pickings by EG's standards. However I do agree with you Tyler, it is bullshit to act all apologetic when the obvious thing to do was approach TSL in a professional manner and explain that they were taking an interest in one of their players.
Just on a side note, Korean teams need to start securing their players. Starcraft 2 isn't like Broodwar where Korean players can just "join a team" and be done with it. There needs to be some sort of contracting going on, especially with new foreign involvement within the Korean scene.
On July 23 2011 00:11 johanhar wrote: This is how sports work... if lets say a fotball player was under some team with no contract or salary, then it would be ok (in the "real" world of sports) to just contact the player directly
No, it's not. In sports, a free agent is known by everyone to be a free agent. In the SC2 scene, any player can decide for himself when he wants to be a free agent and he can tell as many or as few people as he wants. The solution is not just having a contract. The solution is having a contract and having a governing body to enforce some rules on how players and teams interact with each other. The whole contract discussion within this issue is irrelevant bullshit.
Won't the team he left take him off the roster and make some sort of announcement, like we see all the time on TL threads? How do SC2 free agents *hide* the fact that they're free agents from everyone except for a select few? It seems like everyone would know, just like in other sports.
On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I don't think Alex Garfield would be perfectly ok if another team was recruiting an EG player without Scott Smith (SirScoots) knowing about it. Presumably Garfield would blame Smith for not having a tight enough leash on his players. I suppose Garfield would claim that he would have no ill feelings toward the recruiting team but I find that hard to believe. He knows what a manager's role is, no matter if it's Korean culture or American culture. He knows that when a manager gets bypassed, things have gotten fucked up. You can blame the manager and player, and you can also blame the recruiter who knows exactly what he's doing when bypassing the manager.
In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught.
I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team.
Yup people are saying Puma is 19 and therefore an adult but if he was really smart and going to leave TSL like this then he should've at least looked at other foreign teams. A team like FXO, who just bought an entire Korean team, couldn't have done at least as much if not more for him than EG?
On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I don't think Alex Garfield would be perfectly ok if another team was recruiting an EG player without Scott Smith (SirScoots) knowing about it. Presumably Garfield would blame Smith for not having a tight enough leash on his players. I suppose Garfield would claim that he would have no ill feelings toward the recruiting team but I find that hard to believe. He knows what a manager's role is, no matter if it's Korean culture or American culture. He knows that when a manager gets bypassed, things have gotten fucked up. You can blame the manager and player, and you can also blame the recruiter who knows exactly what he's doing when bypassing the manager.
In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught.
I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team.
Good to see you are so informed in the inner workings of the TSL team that your aware of the discussions between Puma, his team mates and his coach. Can we get a transcript?
What the fuck is this? If you doubt something I said, point it out. If you're trying to write a joke, it's not funny. You just come off as an ignorant asshole.
My comments are more directed when you went off on a tangent talking about what Puma SHOULD have said to his coach. Maybe as you say it he was a man and stood up and said I am quitting to join up with a foreigner team of my choice
I think I have to disagree on almost everything TLO and Tyler have said about the issue, and just to look at it from a business aspect it's TSL's fault for not having him signed? And obviously Puma wanted to leave it's not like they've kidnapped him by force like most seem to be implying.
On July 23 2011 00:19 h-a-r-v wrote: Tyler: I think Alex takes that into account. They've been running the team for long enough to know that. Would they be happy? Hell no. But I'm sure they know how it's like and probably that's why they have good relationships with their players as he talked about + keep them satisfied enough with their contract covenants. And I agree, was just about to reply that to TBO btw. - I would reserve some blame for Puma. The kid should have kept his mouth shut and let the team do the talking.
TBO: as above + yeah, EG might talk to the coach first but... Puma wasn't signed with TSL, thus he was deciding for himself in that case and his choice is all that matters here.
I didn't hear Alex take it into account when he was on WoC. The impression I got was like I said: purposely do the wrong thing for your own benefit, get caught, feign ignorance, apologize. It's either that or, if you want to believe everything he says: do a thing you think is acceptable, find out it's not acceptable, apologize. The read on the situation depends on whether you think Alex knew beforehand that what he was doing wasn't proper. I think he did know.
On July 23 2011 00:19 h-a-r-v wrote: Tyler: I think Alex takes that into account. They've been running the team for long enough to know that. Would they be happy? Hell no. But I'm sure they know how it's like and probably that's why they have good relationships with their players as he talked about + keep them satisfied enough with their contract covenants. And I agree, was just about to reply that to TBO btw. - I would reserve some blame for Puma. The kid should have kept his mouth shut and let the team do the talking.
TBO: as above + yeah, EG might talk to the coach first but... Puma wasn't signed with TSL, thus he was deciding for himself in that case and his choice is all that matters here. The fact Koreans didn't sign anyone is their problem and apparently Puma didn't benefit from that and didn't feel bonded to them enough to send EG to the coach first when approached. We talk 'bout e-sports, not the Shaolin Temple. No one had to go to the master and talk about his disciple.
you are right about that, but then why shouldn't TSL not be allowed to break the news? They didn't sign any contract with EG to not do it. And a member of their team leaving definitely is legitmate news worth being put on news outlets, and because TSL has no contracts with EG there is absolutely no reason why EG should have any say in that.
On July 23 2011 00:11 johanhar wrote: This is how sports work... if lets say a fotball player was under some team with no contract or salary, then it would be ok (in the "real" world of sports) to just contact the player directly
No, it's not. In sports, a free agent is known by everyone to be a free agent. In the SC2 scene, any player can decide for himself when he wants to be a free agent and he can tell as many or as few people as he wants. The solution is not just having a contract. The solution is having a contract and having a governing body to enforce some rules on how players and teams interact with each other. The whole contract discussion within this issue is irrelevant bullshit.
In conventional sports the public knows when a player is a free agent all at the same time. But player agents/teams etc know before anyone. Hell they even know before the player knows LOL. No but they know if a player is unhappy, if he is thinking of leaving for whatever reasons etc .. You ( the public ) only hears that someone is a free agent if he hasent found a deal that he wants to take. If he had you wouldnt hear that he is a free agent you would just hear '' such and such has gone from this club to this club '' We can only speculate how many weeks/months that player was wooed and all the deals that went on to make such a transfer/buyout.
On July 23 2011 00:24 Pr0spect wrote: I think I have to disagree on almost everything TLO and Tyler have said about the issue, and just to look at it from a business aspect it's TSL's fault for not having him signed? And obviously Puma wanted to leave it's not like they've kidnapped him by force like most seem to be implying.
You must understand, players in Korea have never before had to be signed to a contract in order to join a team. It is only recently since there has been more Korean/foreign team involvement that it has really become an issue.
I doubt they have been apologetic like Tyler said, since Garfield clearly said in Weapon of Choice that if he could do it differently he said no, he wouldn't.
On the point of having a player in his team being recruiting by another organization, that point was addressed as well in Weapon of Choice.
I have one question Tyler, did you listen/watch the episode? Just want to know if i should point you to it for answers on some points of your post.
On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I don't think Alex Garfield would be perfectly ok if another team was recruiting an EG player without Scott Smith (SirScoots) knowing about it. Presumably Garfield would blame Smith for not having a tight enough leash on his players. I suppose Garfield would claim that he would have no ill feelings toward the recruiting team but I find that hard to believe. He knows what a manager's role is, no matter if it's Korean culture or American culture. He knows that when a manager gets bypassed, things have gotten fucked up. You can blame the manager and player, and you can also blame the recruiter who knows exactly what he's doing when bypassing the manager.
In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught.
I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team.
Good to see you are so informed in the inner workings of the TSL team that your aware of the discussions between Puma, his team mates and his coach. Can we get a transcript?
What the fuck is this? If you doubt something I said, point it out. If you're trying to write a joke, it's not funny. You just come off as an ignorant asshole.
My comments are more directed when you went off on a tangent talking about what Puma SHOULD have said to his coach. Maybe as you say it he was a man and stood up and said I am quitting to join up with a foreigner team of my choice
Puma gets an EG business card from Alex Garfield. He goes and talks to EG about it. Right then, I know he hasn't done what I said he should have done. The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it.
On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I don't think Alex Garfield would be perfectly ok if another team was recruiting an EG player without Scott Smith (SirScoots) knowing about it. Presumably Garfield would blame Smith for not having a tight enough leash on his players. I suppose Garfield would claim that he would have no ill feelings toward the recruiting team but I find that hard to believe. He knows what a manager's role is, no matter if it's Korean culture or American culture. He knows that when a manager gets bypassed, things have gotten fucked up. You can blame the manager and player, and you can also blame the recruiter who knows exactly what he's doing when bypassing the manager.
In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught.
I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team.
The biggest thing I didn't understand was Alex kept talking about how from his point of view what EG did was fair and normal business practices. The truth is korea doesn't give two shits what his point of view about his business practices are, if the korean teams decided to shut EG out of any possible future negotiations for their players he can say he was fair until he is red in the face and it won't matter.
TLO, I think you make great points and I wholeheartedly agree with you. I felt like AG was trying to skirt his responsibilities by laying the blame on Milkis and the community. EG looks bad no matter how one sees it.
Somewhat on a related note, I feel sorry for Demuslim that he's under contract with such a shady organization as EG . I hope he can find a new team soon.
On July 23 2011 00:30 TheStonerer wrote: I doubt they have been apologetic like Tyler said, since Garfield clearly said in Weapon of Choice that if he could do it differently he said no, he wouldn't.
On the point of having a player in his team being recruiting by another organization, that point was addressed as well in Weapon of Choice.
I have one question Tyler, did you listen/watch the episode? Just want to know if i should point you to it for answers on some points of your post.
Yes of course I listened to it, but I also have listened to what AG and EG have said in public countless other times, and there have been countless lies and deceptions and mistruths. Perhaps I didn't point out how many points we have to distrust AG on in order to accept my read on the situations but that's a really tiresome process and people are just going to be split on siding with AG/EG if they're ignorant of their history of lies or siding with me if they trust me and/or aren't ignorant of their history of lies.
On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I don't think Alex Garfield would be perfectly ok if another team was recruiting an EG player without Scott Smith (SirScoots) knowing about it. Presumably Garfield would blame Smith for not having a tight enough leash on his players. I suppose Garfield would claim that he would have no ill feelings toward the recruiting team but I find that hard to believe. He knows what a manager's role is, no matter if it's Korean culture or American culture. He knows that when a manager gets bypassed, things have gotten fucked up. You can blame the manager and player, and you can also blame the recruiter who knows exactly what he's doing when bypassing the manager.
In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught.
I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team.
Good to see you are so informed in the inner workings of the TSL team that your aware of the discussions between Puma, his team mates and his coach. Can we get a transcript?
What the fuck is this? If you doubt something I said, point it out. If you're trying to write a joke, it's not funny. You just come off as an ignorant asshole.
My comments are more directed when you went off on a tangent talking about what Puma SHOULD have said to his coach. Maybe as you say it he was a man and stood up and said I am quitting to join up with a foreigner team of my choice
Puma gets an EG business card from Alex Garfield. He goes and talks to EG about it. Right then, I know he hasn't done what I said he should have done. The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it.
That would have been the ideal scenario and things would have worked out better for everyone in this situation if that's what he had done. Nevertheless Puma still talked to his manager before signing a contract and gave him the opportunity to counter the offer made by EG or to discuss the issue with EG themselves.
What occurred wasn't perfect but it also wasn't nearly as bad as people are making it out to be.
Er, is TheButtonmen's linked post on the first page true? It seems to describe the situation very precisely, but I don't know where he got the information, etc.
On July 23 2011 00:30 TheStonerer wrote: I doubt they have been apologetic like Tyler said, since Garfield clearly said in Weapon of Choice that if he could do it differently he said no, he wouldn't.
On the point of having a player in his team being recruiting by another organization, that point was addressed as well in Weapon of Choice.
I have one question Tyler, did you listen/watch the episode? Just want to know if i should point you to it for answers on some points of your post.
Thats the thing what could they have done differently that wouldnt have resulted in TSL locking down their players with contracts ? It could only have been worse as Puma may still have wanted to leave making him breach his contract and making EG/Puma even worse.
Unfortunately this is the only way to buy a star player whether it be in Esports or just sports. I also think that koreans are hiding behind their culture to get away with certain things and keep korea pretty much safe from the things that are STANDARD for all other teams ! Its like the indians taking offence because someone took a player from them without paying a bribe to team/coach/staff/league etc as is customary for them.
Also, it's not only Team Liquid that is coming out against EG's actions. Fnatic and FXOpen have come out against EG. I'm sure their are other teams that I have missed.
I don't know where else to pose this question, but it seems this is the most active place to do it right now. What happens from here on in?
No matter how much we bitch and whine it looks like a done deal between EG and Puma, what I'm interested/worried in is how things go on from here. All the Korean teams aren't going to let this happen again, ever. The current top tier players may have some power, but what about the next generation of up and coming stars with no power, no chance at development unless they sign a contract with their respective team, a contract made rightly so out of fear of this poaching happening again.
I'll make myself clear that while I don't respect what EG did, it's perfectly legal. At the same time however, they've just garnered a lot of bad-will with the Korean community and if I know anything about Asian culture (I am Asian), we look out for our own. No matter how much PR or spin EG pull off, I can't imagine it having more weight than TSL's side of the story unless the facts that fall out are far, far beyond the pale. The thing I am worried about is the shitstorm that is hinted at brewing on the Korean side blowing over to encompass all foreign teams.
So where does it go from here? The aforementioned contracts could start out reasonable, but after? If anything I think EG has hastened the implementation of Kespa-like rules for SC2, something most of the teams have tried to avoid it would seem out of understanding borne between players, coaches and teams. It may push SC2 to become more 'professional' in Korea at least, but I can definitely imagine Kespa-rules regarding appearances in the Korean leagues at the very least, and perhaps understandable. Why? Because it'll probably be the only way to enforce contracts. Money is probably better in the foreign scene right now, and big star names with a bucket-load of skill may be confident enough to deal with being unable to play in Korean leagues, but there are not enough places on foreign teams for every Korean. So they sign contracts, so they become (for the sake of argument) GSL-exclusive. We're back to BW, either that or money in SC2 in Korea dries up and we're all the worse for it.
Admittedly that's quite a lot of, well, theory-crafting along worst-case scenarios, but I'm not the first person in this thread to mention "Korea closing off" and that's definitely how it see it going.
I guess this turned out more of a brain-dump and rant rather than replying to much -.-;;
I have a hard time understanding how this would be a bad thing, me myself have followed eSports globally with the games that was global eSport-games unlike SC:BW that was really focused only in Korea, and SC2 is a global eSports game so it's a different ballgame, and I can't see how EG signing Puma to play for them as a bad thing or that they handled it that wrong? Puma was more or less a volunteer working for TSL he wasn't bound to anything except his moral codes, he gets an offer to be able to travel the world, attend more events, get more exposure globally and people blame him for accepting that offer?
I find blaming EG for this hard, I'd say touche for TSL for not legally signing their players?
And I'd like to see Puma on more international events rather than just see him playing in the GSL, so I'm all for this.
On July 22 2011 20:40 Akilleus wrote: I agree with you TLO, my favorite team is EG but unprofessional behavior like this really hurts the growth of e-sports. In "real" sports this is not accepted at all. Not even in non professional low level divisions.
Oh come on, even in Mighty Ducks they did worse than this.
On July 23 2011 00:24 Pr0spect wrote: I think I have to disagree on almost everything TLO and Tyler have said about the issue, and just to look at it from a business aspect it's TSL's fault for not having him signed? And obviously Puma wanted to leave it's not like they've kidnapped him by force like most seem to be implying.
You must understand, players in Korea have never before had to be signed to a contract in order to join a team. It is only recently since there has been more Korean/foreign team involvement that it has really become an issue.
I mean if they'd like to survive on a global market they should adapt, rather than the whole world adapting to them just cause of their "culture", I think that card have been played out by now.
On July 23 2011 00:38 ptbl wrote: Also, it's not only Team Liquid that is coming out against EG's actions. Fnatic and FXOpen have come out against EG. I'm sure their are other teams that I have missed.
I think that this is important to note too. Everyone deeply involved in the community disagrees with how EG handled things. Managers, owners, players of other teams and its not because they are "EG haters".
That is because those teams chose to work with korea instead of trying to impose their business practices on korea. Whatever the response from the korean teams is to this situation you can probably thank those teams that it will be much more measured than had this been their first contact with a foreign team.
On July 23 2011 00:24 Pr0spect wrote: I think I have to disagree on almost everything TLO and Tyler have said about the issue, and just to look at it from a business aspect it's TSL's fault for not having him signed? And obviously Puma wanted to leave it's not like they've kidnapped him by force like most seem to be implying.
You must understand, players in Korea have never before had to be signed to a contract in order to join a team. It is only recently since there has been more Korean/foreign team involvement that it has really become an issue.
I mean if they'd like to survive on a global market they should adapt, rather than the whole world adapting to them just cause of their "culture", I think that card have been played out by now.
that card has been played out, 25 hours after the first time it came up.
Tyler: Puma was free to go (see my edited / supplemented reply to TBO above). I don't wanna play EG's advocate, 'cause we'll never know for sure. I'm just saying I found Alex's explanations entirely valid. IMO they just wanted to finish the process and tell community the good news (together with TSL once they talked to them in person). It turned to be bad news and it's not good for them like at all - I don't think they would purposely risk their reputation. At least I - as a manager - if I knew I'm doing something improper - would assume I won't get away with that in the Internet era. I don't know the guy but he doesn't sound unreasonable to me, he seem to know how this business works, but I can only assume that. Yet, I repeat - Puma wasn't signed. They weren't obliqued to talk to anyone but Puma himself and that's exactly what they did. Koreans might find it hard to swallow as they hoped to run teams without contracts and salaries (?) apparently. But it's Puma who went away, EG just gave him a place to go. During Weapon of Choice I tweeted Wheat and Milkies that in the end it's his choice (and we wasn't 'stolen') and nothing else matters.So when Wheat later said it's all about the player, 'Amen' was all I could tweet back. If you wasn't on Liquid, wouldn't get paid and stuff, you'd just hang out and practice with them hoping one day in some uncertain future it's gonna become something real, would you stand by that when offered something real right here right now? Would you find people offering you that evil or genius?
That being said, I honestly can't see EG's fault anywhere here. They just probably didn't predict the repercussions of such western approach when dealing with Koreans to whom SC is more like martial arts rather than fighting sports.
I don't think Puma's 'coach' should be approached in the first place. I'm sorry Maybe that would be a good thing to do to prevent the drama, but that wouldn't change anything else really. He would still don't like the decision and felt hurt Puma - his disciple - is leaving, as he thinks he created him. He probably wouldn't be able to do anything about that as well and could only wish him luck (as he did). So.. talking to the 'coach' first - good move. No talking to him - not a bad one.
BTW: Wish you best at Anaheim - along with White-Ra you're the only Protosses I deeply root for.
On July 23 2011 00:11 johanhar wrote: This iS how sports work... if lets say a fotball player was under some team with no contract or salary, then it would be OK (in the "ReaL" world of sports) to just contact the player directly
No, it's not. In sports, a free agent iS known by everyone to be a free agent. In the SC2 scene, any player can decide for himself when he wants to be a free agent and he can tell as many or as few people as he wants. The solution iS not just having a contract. The solution iS having a contract and having a governing body to enforce some rules on how players and teams interact with each other. The whole contract discussion within this IssueiS irrelevant bullshit.
Won't the team he left take him off the roster and make some sort of announcement, like we see all the time on TL threads? How do SC2 free agents *hide* the fact that they're free agents from everyone except for a SeleCT few? It seems like everyone would know, just like in other sports.
He was on NEX for a while, and then he ended up with a different name showing that he WASN'T with NEX, and then he gets grabbed up by MVP. We knew he was a free agent because every game we saw when he didn't have NEX on his name, Tastosis told us "he's not on a team".
I didn't see that from PuMa. PuMa wore TSL's banner, no one ever said "Oh, PuMa's not on a team", PuMa played in the damn GSTL and not under the ringer rule either. Contract or no contract, PuMa was in TSL.
Edit: Oh my gawd doing TLPD button stuff is so cool. Edit#2 - Also a little retarded.
On July 23 2011 00:24 Pr0spect wrote: I think I have to disagree on almost everything TLO and Tyler have said about the issue, and just to look at it from a business aspect it's TSL's fault for not having him signed? And obviously Puma wanted to leave it's not like they've kidnapped him by force like most seem to be implying.
You must understand, players in Korea have never before had to be signed to a contract in order to join a team. It is only recently since there has been more Korean/foreign team involvement that it has really become an issue.
I mean if they'd like to survive on a global market they should adapt, rather than the whole world adapting to them just cause of their "culture", I think that card have been played out by now.
Ok, that's fine. Korea needs to get jaded. Is this the right way to get them jaded? By showing them that EG can't be trusted, that foreigners are courting players without going to managers, that they can't trust their own "family"?
On July 23 2011 00:30 TheStonerer wrote: I doubt they have been apologetic like Tyler said, since Garfield clearly said in Weapon of Choice that if he could do it differently he said no, he wouldn't.
On the point of having a player in his team being recruiting by another organization, that point was addressed as well in Weapon of Choice.
I have one question Tyler, did you listen/watch the episode? Just want to know if i should point you to it for answers on some points of your post.
Yes of course I listened to it, but I also have listened to what AG and EG have said in public countless other times, and there have been countless lies and deceptions and mistruths. Perhaps I didn't point out how many points we have to distrust AG on in order to accept my read on the situations but that's a really tiresome process and people are just going to be split on siding with AG/EG if they're ignorant of their history of lies or siding with me if they trust me and/or aren't ignorant of their history of lies.
Well i would take the fact you say he has told lies before (i didn't follow the eg/tl thing the other time quite as closely as this) into account, but unless some insider source tells otherwise, he knows his own team better than any of us here. And because he tells lies on occasions, doesn't mean he lies about everything. Though, i understand that you are more closely involved in the sc2 business (emotionally in regards to Alex Garfield?) and have a different view of all this.
EDIT: Damn people post faster than i can follow with all the talk...
On July 23 2011 00:30 TheStonerer wrote: I doubt they have been apologetic like Tyler said, since Garfield clearly said in Weapon of Choice that if he could do it differently he said no, he wouldn't.
On the point of having a player in his team being recruiting by another organization, that point was addressed as well in Weapon of Choice.
I have one question Tyler, did you listen/watch the episode? Just want to know if i should point you to it for answers on some points of your post.
Thats the thing what could they have done differently that wouldnt have resulted in TSL locking down their players with contracts ? It could only have been worse as Puma may still have wanted to leave making him breach his contract and making EG/Puma even worse.
Unfortunately this is the only way to buy a star player whether it be in Esports or just sports. I also think that koreans are hiding behind their culture to get away with certain things and keep korea pretty much safe from the things that are STANDARD for all other teams ! Its like the indians taking offence because someone took a player from them without paying a bribe to team/coach/staff/league etc as is customary for them.
PuMa could have just decided not to sign if the TSL staff decided to turn over and sign everyone, thats beyond the point.
Just cause one thing is standard for your culture, doesnt mean its standard everywhere and should be defined as standard. Not signing players is a Korean standard and when they look at us were doing something exceptional (as in being an exception to the standard)
The fact of the matter is the EG staff knew how it worked in Korea, decided not to give a crap, didnt prepare any statement when they knew a shitstorm was coming, decided to finally issue a shitty statement where they basically say nothign on their own biased show, and closed it off by blaming a totally unafiliated community member so people talk less about them and find another subject. This is pure hypocrisy, and totally unprofessional.
LOL @ all the low-post trolls having their day in this thread behind "professional business and free agency in sports" talk. You know, I think TLO talked more about the EG's stance and attitude in WoC rather than whether Puma's move was legal/illegal.
What bothers me the most is the damage control EG does. I feel like its just a weak response to go on one of Wheat's shows and just talk about an hour to justify themselves. Just give out an apology to TSL and take the criticism.
On July 23 2011 00:57 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Well said... I don't know how they've managed to crawl out of it each time when they have been accused of something.
EG makes their money from sponsors. I would assume nothing they have done so far has grabbed the attention of their sponsors in a negative way, otherwise EG or one of their players wouldn't be doing something controversial every other week.
My understanding is that the only thing EG are being accused of is talking directly to Puma rather than to the TSL manager, so lets keep this in context.
If I am the TSL manager, and somebody approaches me expressing interest in one of my best players, what do you think my motivations and responses are going to be? For sure I am going to want to make sure that Puma stays with my organisation, and I am unlikely to communicate EGs interest in him to Puma.
Does Puma have the right to talk to other teams about what they have to offer? How else is he going to know whether the deal he is recieving at his current team is fair? One thing is clear. Information and communications must be free flowing between all parties to ensure nobody is taken advantage of.
Now, Puma plays for TSL, and EG are interested in Puma. Who is responsible for keeping TSL informed? In my opinion EG have no current relationship with TSL, so they are not bound to keep them informed. Puma is obligated as he is part of the team. EG could represent Puma in a approach to TSL, but they are not obliged to because they have no commitments to TSL.
This deals with the moral aspects of what occured, however there has been a larger discussion stared as to contracts with players and what their obligations are. In this instance Puma was not under contract, but some may say that he was morally obliged to act as though he was because TSL looked after him in some ways. However, what would happen to Puma if he suddenly became a much worse player? There must be many players in Korea who don't make the grade, and suddenly the teams don't support them and they are left with nothing. At present if a team does not contract a player they still gain all the benefit that a contract would provide, but they have none of the obligations.
Proffesional SC2 is becoming a big global business, so if people across the world are going to have a clear understanding of what their commitments are, and also what they are getting in return, then is must be written down in the form of a contract. Word of mouth and gentlemens agreements just won't cut it.
The end of WoC was an absolute disaster for EGAlex. Milkis is free to express his opinion on whatever he likes. As a member of TL EGAlex is also free to comment on TL. If EG feel that they are being slandered by inaccurate factual information, then I imagine they can contact TL admin or follow a legal route if it is a constant issue. These things are absolutely plain and straightforward.
The issue of player contracts and how these might work is a subject for discussion here, but I would just say that there are obvious successful models in other professional sports which should be followed in E-sports to prevent drama.
I'm just really curious the plans EG has for Puma. Since the way the handled the situation cost him quite a bit in Korea. So if they plan on having him stay there he now lacks very talented practice partners, and quite possibly will only have to rely on Korean ladder. So if they want him to be an EG mercenary and fly him out to foreigner tournaments, I don't see him being able to compete with the ones other companies bring in.
Alex was very wrong about other teams not having the right approach with Korea. FXO for example helping a team there and making them an FXO team. Or SK for picking up MC and Nada for foreigner events. EG lacks roots in Korea to continue giving Puma the practice he needs to continue putting up the results that they want. You cant upset the locals there because the foreigner scene is bigger, when you want their players. Then again the reputation of EG in Korea was already tarnished with how Idra represented them while he was there.
On July 22 2011 23:09 infinitestory wrote: I don't think this mindset is just the trappings of the old BW days which should be discarded. I think teams should head forward with a spirit of global cooperation rather than businesslike competition.
EDIT: In any case, I think TLO has said it pretty brilliantly (albeit at some points a bit vindictively).
in what fantasy world do you live in that teams in other professional sports cooperate with each other?? The only time that happens is when the owners are trying to fuck the players out of pay through a lockout. Otherwise, teams are cuthroat in each and every way imaginable in every sport on the planet.
On July 22 2011 23:27 Vansetsu wrote: Were my e-sports sneakers made by a 4 year old in a sweatshop? Geez, maybe I wont support that anymore. Harsh metaphor, but I'm tired and it makes the point.
if anything, EG makes it less of a 'sweatshop' (as stupid as that comparison is) by giving him a definite and higher salary instead of some kind of verbal agreement that's really only enforcable through stern looks by angry managers and angry netizens.
On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: And then he should talk to every foreigner team.
While it would be better for puma from a business standpoint if he did so to drive up his asking price, why should he have to (assuming that's what you're getting at)?
While it would be better for puma from a business standpoint if he did so to drive up his asking price, why should he have to (assuming that's what you're getting at)?
He is not saying he has to, but doing that would clearly be in his best interest over just going to EG, since like you pointed out even if he ends up going to EG it will potentially be for a higher price. The point is EG basically took advantage of the fact that Puma didn't know any better and nobody advised him properly.
During the first part of WoC i though it was just some misscommunication and they relied upon Puma to talk to his manager. By the end i though EG and screwed up and were pissed they got caught at it. Irregardless of if they felt bad or intended for it to go bad they were not feeling bad cause they screwed up they felt bad cause they got caught at it
On July 23 2011 00:54 OpticalShot wrote: LOL @ all the low-post trolls having their day in this thread behind "professional business and free agency in sports" talk. You know, I think TLO talked more about the EG's stance and attitude in WoC rather than whether Puma's move was legal/illegal.
It's okay. Keep it coming, you're making my day.
This this this this this so much. Seriously the people that are still riding the "contracting/moral" stuff are saying the same shit a thousand other people have thought and said since the second it was released. Even Tyler said "ignoring the contract bullshit." Those are simply rules that haven't been formulated yet, but probably will be now. Who cares. Logistics. It's EG's constant PR fiascos and (eventual) handling of the situation that this whole thread is even about. Only one single time did TLO (in the OP) mention "EG approaching TSL", in a single sentence, and he simply said that's obviously how this got started, not whether or not it was right or wrong by any side.
While it would be better for puma from a business standpoint if he did so to drive up his asking price, why should he have to (assuming that's what you're getting at)?
He is not saying he has to, but doing that would clearly be in his best interest over just going to EG, since like you pointed out even if he ends up going to EG it will potentially be for a higher price. The point is EG basically took advantage of the fact that Puma didn't know any better and nobody advised him properly.
Quite heavy statements there, so you're saying that you know for a fact that Puma lacks the ability to think for himself, and that he lacks the knowledge about anything involving this, and that he didn't get advised by anyone?
I'd like to see some sources to back that up, rather than saying things you have no clue about just to put EG in a negative light.
This is kind of a late response but these things bothered me. I don't want to comment on whether I think EG did good or bad, but just on what Zlasher wrote, which was ridiculous.
On July 22 2011 21:27 turdburgler wrote: you're going to argue that a computer based organisation in 2011 should adhere to a west coast 9-5.
Should an organization adhere to West Coast 9-5? Yes, if the heads of the organization are on the West Coast
Not if it wants to remain competitive and control its PR in an internet run world. Any business will tell you this, and any business school will tell you this. The internet does not run in hours and days, but in seconds. And the news is the same way. They can do so if they want, but if they get negative PR for a late response, they have no one to blame but themselves. They cannot realistically expect everyone to wait for them patiently while a discussion is going, especially considering most of those discussions happen on Reddit or TeamLiquid.
On July 22 2011 21:27 zeru wrote: How hard can it be to make a short post about it? FXO does it, sixjax does it. Actually, EG are the only ones who don't. Saying its obscene to blame EG for not releasing a statement for 20(?!?!) hours and then attacking milkis for not trying to get EG's side of the story when he actually did try to get their side of the story, now that is unacceptable. Long terrible post with little logic.
EG didn't release a statement for 20 hours? Actually it was 14 hours, 7 of which a sane human being is asleep for. The next 7 hours would have been more improper considering that plans were set to appear on a more public platform AKA WoC.
Want another sports example? Why would EG have felt the need to comment on a playxp article that clearly had a few errors, especially on a player that is still in free agent state, that still is not a member of their organization. Do the Yankees officials ever comment on the player they're about to sign? How about FC Barcelona, or Manchester United? Nobody ever comments on it until the deal is done.
As has been pointed out, SirScoots was up when this happened on his twitter. You are right that having it on a public venue such as Weapon of Choice is the best place for them. Here is where the problem lies:
Correct me if I am wrong, but when did EG let anyone know that they would be responding to this on Weapon of Choice? Did they just go on air on Weapon of Choice when they realized the next day how big of an issue it had become? Or did they let people know the day before, as soon as possible, that all of their questions would be addressed the next day?
I still think that they should have replied on TeamLiquid as soon as possible via the forum, but even if they choose not to, they should have let people know that they were going to respond at all, and when. The Yankees, FC Barcelona, and Manchester United, (I would hope), let people know when they are going to be making a press conference, so for example a news bulletin involving a Yankee player will say "X happened to player Y according our sources, the Yankees will be addressing this issue at 4 PM EDT." That way, people have some of the facts but they also know when to expect the rest of the facts. And if the news article has something wrong, they will also address the journalist or paper and tell them at least some of the things that are blatantly false, even if they wait till the press conference for the full news story.
Milkis wasn't contacted at all it seems. And teams comment on the status of players all the time. They will say "we are currently in negotiations with player Y, when we are finished with the negotiations we will let you know more." That wasn't don't either it seems.
Again, correct me if I am wrong about this, but it seems until the Weapon of Choice there was a lot of media silence on the side of EG. Media silence is not helpful to business organizations. I'm not taking a side, or making a moral statement here, I'm just pointing out that the way they run their PR is ineffective, purely from a business perspective.
On July 23 2011 00:54 OpticalShot wrote: LOL @ all the low-post trolls having their day in this thread behind "professional business and free agency in sports" talk. You know, I think TLO talked more about the EG's stance and attitude in WoC rather than whether Puma's move was legal/illegal.
It's okay. Keep it coming, you're making my day.
This this this this this so much. Seriously the people that are still riding the "contracting/moral" stuff are saying the same shit a thousand other people have thought and said since the second it was released. Even Tyler said "ignoring the contract bullshit." Those are simply rules that haven't been formulated yet, but probably will be now. Who cares. Logistics. It's EG's constant PR fiascos and (eventual) handling of the situation that this whole thread is even about. Only one single time did TLO (in the OP) mention "EG approaching TSL", in a single sentence, and he simply said that's obviously how this got started, not whether or not it was right or wrong by any side.
Sensible people don't care about opinions of "stance" and "attitude". Its what you do and how you treat people in the world that matters. Thus the actual content of what was discussed in WoC is actually a more pertinent discussion.
They signed a FREE AGENT, one who had the option of talking with his staff, and didn't. Why should they care in the slightest what TSL has to say? They didn't steal, coerce, or do anything questionable, they signed someone who didn't have a contract. If anything, it was Puma's obligation to talk to the staff, since the only ties left are emotional ones, but by no means legal or financial.
While it would be better for puma from a business standpoint if he did so to drive up his asking price, why should he have to (assuming that's what you're getting at)?
He is not saying he has to, but doing that would clearly be in his best interest over just going to EG, since like you pointed out even if he ends up going to EG it will potentially be for a higher price. The point is EG basically took advantage of the fact that Puma didn't know any better and nobody advised him properly.
Quite heavy statements there, so you're saying that you know for a fact that Puma lacks the ability to think for himself, and that he lacks the knowledge about anything involving this, and that he didn't get advised by anyone?
I'd like to see some sources to back that up, rather than saying things you have no clue about just to put EG in a negative light.
He is a 19 year old kid who just got offered money from a foreign organization. There is a reason professional athletes in traditional sports use agents.
On July 23 2011 00:54 OpticalShot wrote: LOL @ all the low-post trolls having their day in this thread behind "professional business and free agency in sports" talk. You know, I think TLO talked more about the EG's stance and attitude in WoC rather than whether Puma's move was legal/illegal.
It's okay. Keep it coming, you're making my day.
This this this this this so much. Seriously the people that are still riding the "contracting/moral" stuff are saying the same shit a thousand other people have thought and said since the second it was released. Even Tyler said "ignoring the contract bullshit." Those are simply rules that haven't been formulated yet, but probably will be now. Who cares. Logistics. It's EG's constant PR fiascos and (eventual) handling of the situation that this whole thread is even about. Only one single time did TLO (in the OP) mention "EG approaching TSL", in a single sentence, and he simply said that's obviously how this got started, not whether or not it was right or wrong by any side.
Sensible people don't care about opinions of "stance" and "attitude". Its what you do and how you treat people in the world that matters. Thus the actual content of what was discussed in WoC is actually a more pertinent discussion.
I can't tell if you just called me out or agreed with me. Your first two sentences are contradictory
On July 23 2011 00:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote: The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it.
That's either naive or jealousy/hatred @ EG
I don't know what would you do as TSL manager if you get aproached like that .. but i would tell Alex to F OFF, then i tell the player nothing good there come back. Maybe you can share your vision of what would you do as TSL manager ? Keep in mind your priority is the benefit of your team and not delivering sc2 stars to rich teams and keeping the scrubs for yourself :D
While it would be better for puma from a business standpoint if he did so to drive up his asking price, why should he have to (assuming that's what you're getting at)?
He is not saying he has to, but doing that would clearly be in his best interest over just going to EG, since like you pointed out even if he ends up going to EG it will potentially be for a higher price. The point is EG basically took advantage of the fact that Puma didn't know any better and nobody advised him properly.
Quite heavy statements there, so you're saying that you know for a fact that Puma lacks the ability to think for himself, and that he lacks the knowledge about anything involving this, and that he didn't get advised by anyone?
I'd like to see some sources to back that up, rather than saying things you have no clue about just to put EG in a negative light.
He is a 19 year old kid who just got offered money from a foreign organization. There is a reason professional athletes in traditional sports use agents.
So if you're just 19, you're a mindless drone obviously? so if you'd like to think for yourself at that age you need to get an agent otherwise you'll not survive in this cruel world.
On July 23 2011 00:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote: The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it.
That's either naive or jealousy/hatred @ EG
I don't know what would you do as TSL manager if you get aproached like that .. but i would tell Alex to F OFF, then i tell the player nothing good there come back. Maybe you can share your vision of what would you do as TSL manager ? Keep in mind your priority is the benefit of your team and not delivering sc2 stars to rich teams and keeping the scrubs for yourself :D
I would negotiate a cost with EG to send Puma overseas. Like MC and Nada with SK.
On July 23 2011 00:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote: The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it.
That's either naive or jealousy/hatred @ EG
I don't know what would you do as TSL manager if you get aproached like that .. but i would tell Alex to F OFF, then i tell the player nothing good there come back. Maybe you can share your vision of what would you do as TSL manager ? Keep in mind your priority is the benefit of your team and not delivering sc2 stars to rich teams and keeping the scrubs for yourself :D
So what if thats what happens, at least you will have done the correct thing first, and then youre free to talk it out with PuMa.
In any case I dont know why were still discussing that when its been established that this is just a small issue, the bigger thing (and the start of this blog) being how the situation was (badly) handled by EG
After reading the OP by Milkis I have to say that it seems like there should be information from both sides before going public, considering that a fair amount of people will hold the first position they here as an accurate statement. Something to consider for next time.
I don't know if this factored into it at all but I do agree with deathly rat in that a contract for Puma can be very beneficial. Puma should be free as he is not contracted (and even if he was) to talk to other teams to find out his value to make sure he is being valued by his team. I don't know if Korean teams work this way but I can promise you that nobody in the Western world would work in sports of any type without a contract. In sports your play determines whether you have a contract or not and with that contract you are promised certain things over the course of that contract. Because Puma has no contract with TSL he is not promised anything by that team and legally could be cut at any time without any possible recourse against the team. Also without a contract TSL has no right to control Puma. I am aware that TSL has said that they have provided food, a practice environment, have allowed Puma to stay in their house, and have allowed him to keep any money that he earns. A contract promises that all of this will continue the way it has without any problems, and a salary is guaranteed money that will be coming in.
It seems only logical that Puma would want a contract and salary and should be allowed to go with whomever is willing to give it to him.
Leaving me with one question. If you feel so strongly about Puma and you feel that he is being stolen from you, as far as I know he is still not under contract with EG, and I'm sure that no attempt to keep him has been made, why not go out and try and keep him?
TSL if you really want Puma on your team make sure he is happy with his situation and in the "talk" that supposedly occurred you should have tried to find out what it would take to keep Puma on TSL, and if he is worth it give it to him, and if you deem his price too high and someone else is willing to give it to him then you have no reason to complain.
Having your players under contract prevents any of this from happening and if you already have players on your team under contract(I don't know if this is true) then you were not doing everything to keep Puma and to western standards you did very little to nothing at all to keep Puma.
On July 23 2011 01:12 Duka08 wrote: Those are simply rules that haven't been formulated yet, but probably will be now.
I'm sorry, but aren't codified civil laws like 2000 years old now?
The fact of the matter is that without a sanctioning body with a set of rules, and without written contracts, those arguments can not be applied and the "business" will always win. It's unfortunate. I hate this kind of business just as much as the next guy. But it's life. They weren't in place, and in retrospect Coach Lee wishes he had signed something, even though in his mind the bond was already there, and more fundamentally important to him. But unfortunately that doesn't count, and now there will probably be a push for more regulations. I actually wonder what's going on in that SC2 Player's Association thing right now in Korea.
While it would be better for puma from a business standpoint if he did so to drive up his asking price, why should he have to (assuming that's what you're getting at)?
He is not saying he has to, but doing that would clearly be in his best interest over just going to EG, since like you pointed out even if he ends up going to EG it will potentially be for a higher price. The point is EG basically took advantage of the fact that Puma didn't know any better and nobody advised him properly.
So what would you call TSL adding Puma at an even younger age, with no agent to advise him, and for presumably far less money??
While it would be better for puma from a business standpoint if he did so to drive up his asking price, why should he have to (assuming that's what you're getting at)?
He is not saying he has to, but doing that would clearly be in his best interest over just going to EG, since like you pointed out even if he ends up going to EG it will potentially be for a higher price. The point is EG basically took advantage of the fact that Puma didn't know any better and nobody advised him properly.
Quite heavy statements there, so you're saying that you know for a fact that Puma lacks the ability to think for himself, and that he lacks the knowledge about anything involving this, and that he didn't get advised by anyone?
I'd like to see some sources to back that up, rather than saying things you have no clue about just to put EG in a negative light.
He is a 19 year old kid who just got offered money from a foreign organization. There is a reason professional athletes in traditional sports use agents.
So if you're just 19, you're a mindless drone obviously? so if you'd like to think for yourself at that age you need to get an agent otherwise you'll not survive in this cruel world.
Correct. I doubt Puma is an expert in international esports business and PR. He could definitely have used the help of an agent.
When people like TLO and Tyler post their OPINION on this issue on these forums, it serves as a rallying point for the community. You guys are entitled to your opinion on the situation, but to call EG unprofessional because of it or say that they should have behaved differently shows immaturity and nothing less. These two (and the rest of Team Liquid) have no idea what goes on behind the scenes with EG, and can only speculate like the rest of the droning masses. Certain things are facts, and I am not saying this whole subject is a big gray area, but when you are arguing about things like response time or saying that the lack of contact between the teams was the big problem you are most definitely taking the situation out of the whole context and arguing simple semantic issues to further a point. Lets not turn this into a TL vs EG issue, which is what it seems TLO and Tyler at least are determined to do by such controversial posts. *edited for a grammar error*
^ I would edit the ''ill probably get banned'' out or youll definately get banned.
People telling me that I live in an extraordinary world by trying to believe in honour between people yet they give me that crap that people should wait for both parties opinion on a question before putting the news out. Thats complete bullshit, im sorry but it doesnt work like that.
(and to top is all of they blame Milkis for that when he just translated a PLAYXP article, ridicule)
While it would be better for puma from a business standpoint if he did so to drive up his asking price, why should he have to (assuming that's what you're getting at)?
He is not saying he has to, but doing that would clearly be in his best interest over just going to EG, since like you pointed out even if he ends up going to EG it will potentially be for a higher price. The point is EG basically took advantage of the fact that Puma didn't know any better and nobody advised him properly.
Quite heavy statements there, so you're saying that you know for a fact that Puma lacks the ability to think for himself, and that he lacks the knowledge about anything involving this, and that he didn't get advised by anyone?
I'd like to see some sources to back that up, rather than saying things you have no clue about just to put EG in a negative light.
He is a 19 year old kid who just got offered money from a foreign organization. There is a reason professional athletes in traditional sports use agents.
So if you're just 19, you're a mindless drone obviously? so if you'd like to think for yourself at that age you need to get an agent otherwise you'll not survive in this cruel world.
A 19-year-old has very little perspective especially when it comes to business. You would be very naive to think otherwise. Hell, you can tell Puma was battling his demons. Lee had to approach him and ask him what the hell was going on. The guy was sulking constantly in the house and at GSTL. -_- PumA didn't have any confident in California. He kept this to himself and told EG he would talk to his manager about this. Lee had to get it out of him.
If I'm the manager I have no choice but to let him go regardless of contract or not. I don't want a player around who isn't happy and wants out. There is no reason to keep the player on board.
You don't need an agent per say, but it helps having someone to talk to. PumA had no one to confide to.
opticon,
no one is doing that -_- Lots of people don't like how EG handled the situation. Nothing more to it.
I can Understand you're point of view TLO, but honestly you have to remeber EG didn't blackmail this kid.
This is why I think Puma went and accepted to be a part of EG. Puma just had a thorzain splash onto the foreign tournament scene. His reputation was that of being the top practice partner. Almost semi insulting if you consider youreself dedicated to being competetive.
The truth is, Puma as a person was given an opportunity, a chance to get the fame that you have TLO. A chance to be beloved by thousands of fans. Fans who are exited and charrish talent.
In Korean the Fan base is much more docile, less expressive. The rest of the world fans cheer at banshees killing probes.
Too me, I definetly disagree about you're views about Evil Genius "Stealing" Puma. For a long time it was obvious they were trying to recruit a Korean player onto their team. With loyalty and things along those lines coming into play. EG simply took a gamble.
They said, look we can work with you. Give you something you don't have. You can be a part of our team and we have unique opportunities for you.
How can you blame EG for taking a chance to tag a player? I mean, the situation looks a little worst now because TSL has lost alot of players.
But let's be honest here. Any EG fan is happy for them.
Let me compare this to a sport. You have a young player who plays in a tough league, and never really got alot of fanbase because around him is alot of amazing talent.
He and a few other of his talented peers join a foreign tournament across the ocean. Finally his talents are fully shown in a series of flawless great matches.
Who woudn't expept this player to want to purpsue something EVERY Pro-esport player wishes.
Everyone wants to be recognized and have fans, everyone wantes to feel important. I'm also gonna say I truly feel that the korean scene is much tougher to become a fan favortie then the foreign scene. I don't think he was misstreated with TSL but TSL feeling bitter about this is because they lost talent. Not because they lost a superstar. Off course losing a tournament winner is going to hurt.
But in life, in sports, the player has options and can pursue them. And who can blame them for making a tough choice. But in the end they made that choice because it is what they want!
Look at how many Korean players are loving and enjoying the foreign fanbase.
I bet alot of players would have loved to be offered such an amazing opportunity to leave korean and become a superstar in the rest of the world. Being in Korea is almost like being in the shadows.
Look at HuK, for a few months. No one heard much about him. He was strickly in Korea playing in the GSL. I was always looking for news on HuK but not much was around. Not many replays easily found.... But look at after Dreamhack, Homestory. All of a sudden after winning 2 foregin tournaments, HuK has reclaimed his title of Fan Favorite! And it even got bigger. He is even more beloved now by his fans, all because he attended tournaments we all saw being streamed. Because he made a splash in OUR scene.
What i'm trying to say is. I don't feel like Puma Leaving TSL is a bad thing. It's actually a good thing.
Off course break ups hurt, but when the new relationship offers everything you ever dreamed of... How can you only look at the bad side?
Would you rather Puma decline his invitation and have less then 1/4 of the foreign appearences... Would you rather Puma go back to korean and return where he was before. But another really good Korean Terran?
Or would you approve of him becoming a giant part of a giant team, to aim for new standards of play and competition in the foreign scene.
In life. Decisions don't come easy. Here is a personal dilemma I have. I've been seeing two girls as of late. One I met randomly we had a great week-end together. The other I have known for a few months but only recently we started to meet and spend time together.
I like them both. They both also like me back. But for my mental health i'm not going to continue seeing the both of them.
When you have many opportunities in life. Because you have talent, how can you possibly never run into a situation where you have to make a tough choice.
Back too me, if I tell one of these girls I can't see them. Because I don't want to create something that I can't maintain. Will she be happy? Off course not. She is going to feel like the other girl stole me, like I sold her out.
But How can I act anyother way except bite the bullet? I want to choose the one... I like them both, but I like one more since I have known her more and spend more time with her.
In the End, anyone looking from the outside would say. You should of stayed with XYZ for ABC reason.
Off course I was never in an actual relationship but I did sleep with one girl (TSL for example). So technically I have a "unspoken" loyalty to her, that we agreed to spend more time together because we had the beginings of a relationship.
But the following week, I went on a Date with a friend I was interested in. She is more my type and has alot to offer (EG + foreign scene).
Going on this date I knew if girl A(TSL) found out she would not be happy. Again someone looking at this from a business point of view would think, why start another relationship if you already have one.
But in my interests I wanted to try this new path, because it has alot to offer. So I started the relationship with Girl B (EG) and decided to cancel my relationship with Girl A (TSL) eventhough I had slept with Girl A many times and had seen her many times.
So in this situation I feel like, I had a tough choice to make, but ultimately you have to follow you're gut and choose a path and stick to it. Even if their are hearts being broken.
So in respect to Puma, he did what he wanted for his Heart. Even if he disapointed his old team, he did this for his aspirations and his dreams.
Who doens't want to be a well-paid progammer... Who doens't want to have a Idra Size fanbase?
I'm 100% sure this choice was Hard for Puma but he wasn't going to choose the path of regret and ignore a chance at pursuing his dreams.
So back to the main Blog.
TLO please understand, EG did nothing unethical here. Because that would be like saying I should of ignored my feelings for Girl B and stayed with Girl A just because then no one would be upset.
EG simply saw a sexy tall swedish blonde (Girl B) and just coudn't not follow their hearts and asked her on a date. They went on a date and kissed, a few moments later it was clear to EG that even though hearts would be broken, life can't be fair to everyone, and having regrets is equally as painful as being heartbroken.
I for one Stand behind Puma, and EG. I'm sorry TSL for your loss. But like Girl A, maybe next time you will be in my situation and you will have to choose between Man A and Man B. When that happens, you will realize that following you're feelings is always the best course of action (for you).
Kudos to TLO and later Tyler for posting their own opinions.
I think ultimately there are two things to take out of this situation. Number one, EG should have spoken to the Manager not the player. They did that with other teams in Korea so why talk to Puma in person at NASL? Just because it was handy to do face to face does not make it the correct approach.
Number two, whatever plans EG has for Korea are facing a PR disaster because of this. The backlash seems to be amazing and we're only seeing part of it.
You guys can turn this into an EG witch hunt if you want, but ultimately EG are facing an uphill struggle now in Korea to get their own plans going. I can see less and less people wanting to deal with them over there. They're already being punished with all this bad PR.
I hope this doesnt reflect badly on other Western teams trying to break into Korea.
On July 23 2011 00:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote: The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it.
That's either naive or jealousy/hatred @ EG
I don't know what would you do as TSL manager if you get aproached like that .. but i would tell Alex to F OFF, then i tell the player nothing good there come back. Maybe you can share your vision of what would you do as TSL manager ? Keep in mind your priority is the benefit of your team and not delivering sc2 stars to rich teams and keeping the scrubs for yourself :D
I would negotiate a cost with EG to send Puma overseas. Like MC and Nada with SK.
Oh. I guess maybe EG's too cheap to do that.
what SK is doing is basically rent-a-player and EG doesnt want to do that, and I wouldn't either. Alex already said on WoC about transfer fees as well and some korean teams have asked for more money than the company is even worth. So in cases like that, what do you think EG should do, pay the ridiculous amount of money that the korean teams are asking for in a transfer?
On July 23 2011 00:33 Liquid`Tyler wrote: people are just going to be split on siding with AG/EG if they're ignorant of their history of lies or siding with me if they trust me and/or aren't ignorant of their history of lies.
you are better than posting shit like "im right and your right or your wrong"
On July 23 2011 00:11 johanhar wrote: This is how sports work... if lets say a fotball player was under some team with no contract or salary, then it would be ok (in the "real" world of sports) to just contact the player directly
No, it's not. In sports, a free agent is known by everyone to be a free agent. In the SC2 scene, any player can decide for himself when he wants to be a free agent and he can tell as many or as few people as he wants. The solution is not just having a contract. The solution is having a contract and having a governing body to enforce some rules on how players and teams interact with each other. The whole contract discussion within this issue is irrelevant bullshit.
No professional sports teams would have a player practice and live with them if they weren't under contract. The moral of the story is make your players sign a contract that cannot be legally broken.
On July 23 2011 00:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote: The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it.
That's either naive or jealousy/hatred @ EG
I don't know what would you do as TSL manager if you get aproached like that .. but i would tell Alex to F OFF, then i tell the player nothing good there come back. Maybe you can share your vision of what would you do as TSL manager ? Keep in mind your priority is the benefit of your team and not delivering sc2 stars to rich teams and keeping the scrubs for yourself :D
I would negotiate a cost with EG to send Puma overseas. Like MC and Nada with SK.
Oh. I guess maybe EG's too cheap to do that.
what SK is doing is basically rent-a-player and EG doesnt want to do that, and I wouldn't either. Alex already said on WoC about transfer fees as well and some korean teams have asked for more money than the company is even worth. So in cases like that, what do you think EG should do, pay the ridiculous amount of money that the korean teams are asking for in a transfer?
No. Find someone else. What is this, "any means necessary"? If you can't afford someone, then you don't get him. Or go find rising talent in Korea like what these teams are doing. Is that another cost issue?
Is this entire thing of bypassing the coach a cost issue, hm?
On July 23 2011 01:49 Chillax wrote: Kudos to TLO and later Tyler for posting their own opinions.
I think ultimately there are two things to take out of this situation. Number one, EG should have spoken to the Manager not the player. They did that with other teams in Korea so why talk to Puma in person at NASL? Just because it was handy to do face to face does not make it the correct approach.
Number two, whatever plans EG has for Korea are facing a PR disaster because of this. The backlash seems to be amazing and we're only seeing part of it.
You guys can turn this into an EG witch hunt if you want, but ultimately EG are facing an uphill struggle now in Korea to get their own plans going. I can see less and less people wanting to deal with them over there. They're already being punished with all this bad PR.
I hope this doesnt reflect badly on other Western teams trying to break into Korea.
i think about 8000 posts have been written regarding why.
1) Alex was networking with everyone at NASL, passing out business cards and making it known that they were looking for players.
2) Puma was interested and asked for more info, Alex gave it to him.
3) Puma said oh let me talk to my coach first, and Alex agreed that it was the best course of action. After all, there is NOTHING stopping TSL Coach Lee to contact EG if he didn't like what Puma tells him, whether it was contract related or a simple "Hey please talk to me instead of the player". But instead, Coach Lee decides to go post on twitter that he was mad.
4) For all Alex knows, he was under the impression that the talks with Coach Lee went extremely well.
If you are going to blame EG for not talking to TSL first about this, then you must also blame TSL for not contacting EG before this story broke out. You can't apply one rule against one company and not the other. 2 wrongs dont make a right.
Oh man the best part about the whole EG-Puma debate was Milkis (a neutral party, translator) being attacked by the EG's Executive director on Weapon of Choice for not contacting EG about their stance, while all he did was translate (and provide an opinion on his own twitter). The hilarity in this situation is AMAZING. EG did not contact coach lee, EG did not try to explain anything, EG did literally nothing. So a translator should be responsible for EG public relations. Fail...
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves." And that was an official topic on their own tournament...
On July 23 2011 00:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote: The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it.
That's either naive or jealousy/hatred @ EG
I don't know what would you do as TSL manager if you get aproached like that .. but i would tell Alex to F OFF, then i tell the player nothing good there come back. Maybe you can share your vision of what would you do as TSL manager ? Keep in mind your priority is the benefit of your team and not delivering sc2 stars to rich teams and keeping the scrubs for yourself :D
I would negotiate a cost with EG to send Puma overseas. Like MC and Nada with SK.
Oh. I guess maybe EG's too cheap to do that.
what SK is doing is basically rent-a-player and EG doesnt want to do that, and I wouldn't either. Alex already said on WoC about transfer fees as well and some korean teams have asked for more money than the company is even worth. So in cases like that, what do you think EG should do, pay the ridiculous amount of money that the korean teams are asking for in a transfer?
No. Find someone else. What is this, "any means necessary"? If you can't afford someone, then you don't get him. Or go find rising talent in Korea like what these teams are doing. Is that another cost issue?
Is this entire thing of bypassing the coach a cost issue, hm?
And EG did find someone else, Puma. Any means necessary would be still going after a player who had a contract after they've been told "here's the transfee, pay it or there's nothing else to say".
Why would EG have to find rising talent when there is talent already to be had? Puma has no contract, therefore he is open to decide himself where he wants to go.
Again, EG did not say "oh we gonna bypass the coach", Puma suggested that he himself talk to the coach.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: Oh man the best part about the whole EG-Puma debate was Milkis (a neutral party, translator) being attacked by the EG's Executive director on Weapon of Choice for not contacting EG about their stance, while all he did was translate (and provide an opinion on his own twitter). The hilarity in this situation is AMAZING. EG did not contact coach lee, EG did not try to explain anything, EG did literally nothing. So a translator should be responsible for EG public relations. Fail...
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves."
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves."
On July 23 2011 00:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote: The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it.
That's either naive or jealousy/hatred @ EG
I don't know what would you do as TSL manager if you get aproached like that .. but i would tell Alex to F OFF, then i tell the player nothing good there come back. Maybe you can share your vision of what would you do as TSL manager ? Keep in mind your priority is the benefit of your team and not delivering sc2 stars to rich teams and keeping the scrubs for yourself :D
I would negotiate a cost with EG to send Puma overseas. Like MC and Nada with SK.
Oh. I guess maybe EG's too cheap to do that.
what SK is doing is basically rent-a-player and EG doesnt want to do that, and I wouldn't either. Alex already said on WoC about transfer fees as well and some korean teams have asked for more money than the company is even worth. So in cases like that, what do you think EG should do, pay the ridiculous amount of money that the korean teams are asking for in a transfer?
No. Find someone else. What is this, "any means necessary"? If you can't afford someone, then you don't get him. Or go find rising talent in Korea like what these teams are doing. Is that another cost issue?
Is this entire thing of bypassing the coach a cost issue, hm?
And EG did find someone else, Puma. Any means necessary would be still going after a player who had a contract after they've been told "here's the transfee, pay it or there's nothing else to say".
Why would EG have to find rising talent when there is talent already to be had? Puma has no contract, therefore he is open to decide himself where he wants to go.
Again, EG did not say "oh we gonna bypass the coach", Puma suggested that he himself talk to the coach.
"1) Alex was networking with everyone at NASL, passing out business cards and making it known that they were looking for players.
2) Puma was interested and asked for more info, Alex gave it to him."
If we can disregard the 2 points above for one moment, only because I don't know the source - if you can link me the source for this, that'd be great.
EG knows Puma is on TSL. So the whole thing hinges on who approached who, right? Why would a professional team, a team who's spent years in e-sports (and also poached CS players, so maybe that's why), go up to a player on a team and express interest? How did they know he had no contract? I can't imagine how they would know he has no contract, so wouldn't this fall under "any means necessary"?
"Hey, look! It's Puma, let's go ask him to join us even though he's wearing TSL garb, he's playing for TSL, and everyone in Korea knows he's on TSL"
Why should EG have to find rising talent? Because then it's far more legitimate than poaching players.
Regarding TLO's OP, most of it was about how EG responded and unfairly criticized Milkis. I don't like how the discussion has focused so much on that.
The original question is whether EG's actions starting from NASL to a few days ago were ethical or not. Based on the facts that AG presented, which have not been contested yet, I still don't see how they did anything wrong. These facts were: - EG went to NASL targeting all Koreans, openly, by handing out cards/flyers. If people thought that this was shady, they should have called EG out right then and there. Even FXO guy says that he will often schmooze with players at events and talk about them joining. - EG had no intention of Puma signing a contract before getting back to TSL (and they still don't have a contract). This removes the shadiness aspect of not giving TSL a chance to also make an offer. - Puma requested that he be the one to bring it up to TSL. It's totally understandable for EG to accept this decision. Certainly, if I were leaving my employer and wanted to break the news, I wouldn't want my new employer to override me.
I don't care that AG sounds like a sleazy guy, or that EG has horrible PR, or that EG has been shady in the past. That is a separate discussion. But I don't see how EG is still getting hate for what everyone was initially freaking out about - their actions in recruiting Puma.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: Oh man the best part about the whole EG-Puma debate was Milkis (a neutral party, translator) being attacked by the EG's Executive director on Weapon of Choice for not contacting EG about their stance, while all he did was translate (and provide an opinion on his own twitter). The hilarity in this situation is AMAZING. EG did not contact coach lee, EG did not try to explain anything, EG did literally nothing. So a translator should be responsible for EG public relations. Fail...
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves." And that was an official topic on their own tournament...
Hypocrits.
This pretty much sums up everything that is wrong with EG right now.... Kudos to you.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves."
I knew I was forgetting something.
Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious..
On July 23 2011 01:12 Duka08 wrote: Those are simply rules that haven't been formulated yet, but probably will be now.
I'm sorry, but aren't codified civil laws like 2000 years old now?
The fact of the matter is that without a sanctioning body with a set of rules, and without written contracts, those arguments can not be applied and the "business" will always win. It's unfortunate. I hate this kind of business just as much as the next guy. But it's life. They weren't in place, and in retrospect Coach Lee wishes he had signed something, even though in his mind the bond was already there, and more fundamentally important to him. But unfortunately that doesn't count, and now there will probably be a push for more regulations. I actually wonder what's going on in that SC2 Player's Association thing right now in Korea.
I guess I can nothing but agree. That's how this world works and it's NOT A BAD mechanism at all. I can understand where the compassion for Lee is coming from but I think people are overestimating his 'pain'. He's not Puma's father or something, he'll get over it soon. Deal is a deal. TSL had no deal with Puma. If they really cared, they'd have one, instead they were building castles in the sand, which is BAD for the players. Have you ever been working without a deal? Do you know that feeling of insecurity? As you grow up you realize that having something on paper is not 'a sanctioning body with a set of rules', it's not a cold, evil, business thing - it's a way of showing respect to each other as well as to the case both parties are up to, there's nothing wrong in signing papers. You sign them when you marry. Yes, a marriage is a deal too. When both parties are satisfied, it's nothing but a great thing. Apparently Puma didn't feel that bond with TSL, otherwise he'd refuse or send them to his coach. EG approached him as the only valid person in this case and he - already an adult - made his choice. No one can blame EG for making him an offer when they totally could do so. To me it's just ridiculous how people like TLO now easily dismiss the most important business part of it and the fact that nothing would happen without Puma agreeing to go, and blame EG for breaking someone's heart. Puma was free to go and he went. End of story. Simple as it is. His coach will miss him? OK, then he will and maybe vice versa, but that's like a side-effect EG can't be responsible for. Approaching the coach first wouldn't change a thing except being a better PR apparently. He'd still be hurt he's losing his disciple and would rather have him stay, but he'd go anyway. I'm repeating myself now. Let's film 'Starcraft Kid' or something possibly, that's where diving into drama like this would make sense. It's absolutely not applicable to making deals in e-sports though.
On July 23 2011 02:07 yoshi_yoshi wrote: Regarding TLO's OP, most of it was about how EG responded and unfairly criticized Milkis. I don't like how the discussion has focused so much on that.
The original question is whether EG's actions starting from NASL to a few days ago were ethical or not. Based on the facts that AG presented, which have not been contested yet, I still don't see how they did anything wrong. These facts were: - EG went to NASL targeting all Koreans, openly, by handing out cards/flyers. If people thought that this was shady, they should have called EG out right then and there. Even FXO guy says that he will often schmooze with players at events and talk about them joining. - EG had no intention of Puma signing a contract before getting back to TSL (and they still don't have a contract). This removes the shadiness aspect of not giving TSL a chance to also make an offer. - Puma requested that he be the one to bring it up to TSL. It's totally understandable for EG to accept this decision. Certainly, if I were leaving my employer and wanted to break the news, I wouldn't want my new employer to override me.
I don't care that AG sounds like a sleazy guy, or that EG has horrible PR, or that EG has been shady in the past. That is a separate discussion. But I don't see how EG is still getting hate for what everyone was initially freaking out about - their actions in recruiting Puma.
And how many people know about this to even say "this is shady"? I haven't seen anything on the forums mentioning that.
On July 23 2011 02:07 yoshi_yoshi wrote: Regarding TLO's OP, most of it was about how EG responded and unfairly criticized Milkis. I don't like how the discussion has focused so much on that.
The original question is whether EG's actions starting from NASL to a few days ago were ethical or not. Based on the facts that AG presented, which have not been contested yet, I still don't see how they did anything wrong. These facts were: - EG went to NASL targeting all Koreans, openly, by handing out cards/flyers. If people thought that this was shady, they should have called EG out right then and there. Even FXO guy says that he will often schmooze with players at events and talk about them joining. - EG had no intention of Puma signing a contract before getting back to TSL (and they still don't have a contract). This removes the shadiness aspect of not giving TSL a chance to also make an offer. - Puma requested that he be the one to bring it up to TSL. It's totally understandable for EG to accept this decision. Certainly, if I were leaving my employer and wanted to break the news, I wouldn't want my new employer to override me.
I don't care that AG sounds like a sleazy guy, or that EG has horrible PR, or that EG has been shady in the past. That is a separate discussion. But I don't see how EG is still getting hate for what everyone was initially freaking out about - their actions in recruiting Puma.
if you don't like what this topic is about why don't you go to the Puma leaves TSL for EG topic then instead of hijacking this thread?.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves."
I knew I was forgetting something.
Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious..
FOR ESPORTS!!
i made that point last night already, you're stealing my thunder
Thanks TLO, you've really summed it up quite nicely.
The ethical/moral dimensions to this have been explored to death on the forums here, so I'll avoid posting on them, but there is one point I do want to add. This fits a pattern of simply bad business decisions in my view-- short/mid-term focus with complete disregard to long term brand equity is not a viable business strategy. Sure you net an awesome player who will draw eyes, but you also hurt the value of the EG brand, which is arguably the team's most important resource-- other players/community members/viewers having a negative image of EG as a whole will eventually impact their perception of sponsors who affiliate with EG, which is not a situation you'd like to move towards as management.
People can hide behind legal excuses/talk about contracts all they like but in the end its a question of perception, and I don't think EG gained at all from this exchange.
^^ Well thats only in the short term, people will be sad about tsl for a bit, but once the competitions starts, this will all be forgotten and most people will cheer for their favorite EG member, and ultimately thats what matters to the sponsors, to see their sponsored players watched by many people, and with puma that can only increase, it's short term pain for long term gain.
If they want to play the bad boys, they should at least be able to deal with the criticism, however EG seems to demand high morale standard from everyone but themselves.
Its pretty much about this. They KNOW they were doing something wrong. Or they are VERY stupid. Then when people are like "hey you guys!" they are like "common stop hating". What they did is wrong. It doesn't matter if you don't like coach lee. A crime is a crime a foul is a foul and approaching a team member without talking to the team is a big foul. Quite frankly i don't care about it too much but EG's reaction is making me like them less. A community like starcraft would have reacted better to immediate insincere apologies than lies and delays.
With all due respect I completely disagree. No reason to approach a free agent to what team he is currently on first at all. Puma is not TSL's slave. They could have told TSL afterwards but it wouldn't have changed anything. Puma was free to tell his team he was going to switch at any time but did not say anything and EG never gave any orders to keep it a secret AFAIK.
Why should Puma have all that much loyalty to his team anyway when he has barely spent that much time with them? Team swaps should be talked out between team managers? Who made that rule?
On July 22 2011 20:22 TheButtonmen wrote: Always glad to see the pros taking the time to interact with the community, disagree with you here but most importantly of all good luck at the WCG!
What do you disagree with the OP? I'm just curious and would like to know.
My thoughts can be found here, if you have any other questions shoot me a PM I don't really want to bring my arguments about this spilling over into TLO's blog.
On July 22 2011 20:54 crackcc wrote: They are all to blame. EG, Puma, Lee !
EG : for not communicating with the coach before/after he went on a public rant.
Puma : for telling EG not to communicate with Lee, and that '' he would handle it ''. EDIT : This for me is the worst of the 3 because he KNOWS what korean culture is like and KNOWS how his team/coach will feel, not to mention korean netizens. It seems like a bad call on his part.
Lee : for PUBLICLY ranting on EG/Puma without before getting in touch with EG
It seems not so long ago Team Liquid(Tyler) got angry at EG(incontrol) for just the same thing - EG had said/Ommited certain details PUBLICLY ( in TL forums ) and Tyler and others got mad that they went and did that publicly instead of first talking with them !
^ UPVOTE v DOWNVOTE
If these are true then I don't think EG should get all the hate they are getting.
Although AG definitely handled the follow up situation poorly on Weapon of Choice.
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
And if this is true (which I don't seen Rekrul having a reason to lie about this) that is amusing to say the least.
On July 23 2011 00:38 ptbl wrote: Also, it's not only Team Liquid that is coming out against EG's actions. Fnatic and FXOpen have come out against EG. I'm sure their are other teams that I have missed.
Does anyone have any proof to back up this statement? There are a lot of wild claims involved with this story and at this point I am only trusting direct quotes.
Totally agree with TLO and TSL on this one. Has EG even released a public statement yet? If so, where's the article? (I wasn't able to tune into Weapon of Choice T.T)
On July 23 2011 00:38 ptbl wrote: Also, it's not only Team Liquid that is coming out against EG's actions. Fnatic and FXOpen have come out against EG. I'm sure their are other teams that I have missed.
Does anyone have any proof to back up this statement? There are a lot of wild claims involved with this story and at this point I am only trusting direct quotes.
Didn't see fnatics response but FXOpen responded in this thread expressing similar feelings. Don't know if it's the official account though. (Ctrl+f FXOpen)
On July 22 2011 21:43 ComaDose wrote: Its well that you blogged in addition to posting in the thread. I know I gave up on that thread a long time ago.
If they want to play the bad boys, they should at least be able to deal with the criticism, however EG seems to demand high morale standard from everyone but themselves.
Its pretty much about this. They KNOW they were doing something wrong. Or they are VERY stupid. Then when people are like "hey you guys!" they are like "common stop hating". What they did is wrong. It doesn't matter if you don't like coach lee. A crime is a crime a foul is a foul and approaching a team member without talking to the team is a big foul. Quite frankly i don't care about it too much but EG's reaction is making me like them less. A community like starcraft would have reacted better to immediate insincere apologies than lies and delays.
With all due respect I completely disagree. No reason to approach a free agent to what team he is currently on first at all. Puma is not TSL's slave. They could have told TSL afterwards but it wouldn't have changed anything. Puma was free to tell his team he was going to switch at any time but did not say anything and EG never gave any orders to keep it a secret AFAIK.
Why should Puma have all that much loyalty to his team anyway when he has barely spent that much time with them? Team swaps should be talked out between team managers? Who made that rule?
courtesy made that rule. It is generally understood and has been for a decade. "EG didn't give any orders to keep it secret." what is the purpose of this sentence. why are you quoting me from like 10 pages back? Puma should have loyalty to his team because he should be an honorable person. Not talking about a player changing teams with the team is a foul.
EG did no wrong IMO. They played to win, just like the Korean's do.
Korean's should stop using peer pressure to keep player on teams that make no money and have no future. Puma doesn't owe TSL anything..... he got to play at their house, and in exchange he represented them before an audience of 85k people.
All you "do-gooders" out there would create an environment for players where they have no financial future. Where teams and coaches can lock up players for simply food, water and wifi. EG is creating a market for players, and that is what will help make western e-sport truly professional.
Korean's (God love them) are so loyal and so hard working, that coaches and manager can literally exploit kids for free for years at a time, I think this happens all over the world, but in Korea we have even seen ugly sexual exploitation going on at a team house. This wouldn't happen if players were not so desperate, and EG has helped to reverse that trend.
On July 23 2011 02:34 dsousa wrote: EG did no wrong IMO. They played to win, just like the Korean's do.
Korean's should stop using peer pressure to keep player on teams that make no money and have no future. Puma doesn't owe TSL anything..... he got to play at their house, and in exchange he represented them before an audience of 85k people.
All you "do-gooders" out there would create an environment for players where they have no financial future. Where teams and coaches can lock up players for simply food, water and wifi. EG is creating a market for players, and that is what will help make western e-sport truly professional.
Korean's (God love them) are so loyal and so hard working, that coaches and manager can literally exploit kids for free for years at a time, I think this happens all over the world, but in Korea we have even seen ugly sexual exploitation going on at a team house. This wouldn't happen if players were not so desperate, and EG has helped to reverse that trend.
now this, THIS, actually strikes a valid chord with me.
He wasn't contracted, so it's only cultural/moral issue and i personaly don't care, because Puma wants to go to EG, EG wants Puma, and TSL have no money/will to pay Puma, and in e-sports busines (an any other) that's how things work. Sure they could be nice and talk to coach before contacting player, but they absolutely didn't have to. It's only a matter of being polite, and since when we expact companies to be that way lol?
Once again you make me so proud for supporting the team with people who are honest, responsible and actually care about Starcraft and the community instead of a team blindly following "business interests" and not giving a fuck about anything or anyone else.
Thanks for being the voice for the part of community that still cares and doesn't want all the corporate bullshit in Starcraft.
On July 23 2011 00:38 ptbl wrote: Also, it's not only Team Liquid that is coming out against EG's actions. Fnatic and FXOpen have come out against EG. I'm sure their are other teams that I have missed.
Does anyone have any proof to back up this statement? There are a lot of wild claims involved with this story and at this point I am only trusting direct quotes.
Fnatic's manager Xeris made a post in the original thread, here it is.
On July 21 2011 16:49 Xeris wrote: Alex Garfield of EG talked to a lot of players at NASL, he approached Sen for example. I don't think it's particularly wrong for a conversation to take place, especially when you're at an event and just socializing with people... but it's more about actually putting a deal in place without going through the proper channels that it becomes wrong in my opinion.
For example, I have no problem talking to players (let's say DIMAGA) and saying "hey I'm wondering if you'd be interested in joining Fnatic." But knowing that he's a player on a team, that's really where the conversation needs to end. Anything further becomes a disrespect to the actual team and the whole idea of esports.
I agree with TLO and this was also my thoughts when i posted in the other thread.
I think that the original Puma-EG incident was probably down to misunderstanding and slight mishandling of the situation which should not be a big deal if subsequently handled correctly. But EGs handling the situation was a complete PR disaster.
First PR mistake They took like 18 hours to respond to the incident, despite efforts being made to contact EG people such as sirscoots. In that time, coach Lee manage to give an update of the incident and even Incontrol manage to make a joke about it on twitter, but only silence from EG management.
2nd bigger PR mistake They decided to have a response on a semi- EG friendly show where they pit AG, executive director of EG against Milkis. At first, AG explain the situation well but instead of trying to learn from this incident and try to be more sensitive and understanding, somehow try to justify their actions by western e sports standard (which is extremely low btw) and in the end somehow manage to passive-aggressively insinuate that Milkis is somehow to blame for the shit that EG is getting?!
Other teams manage to aquire Korean players/team without any incident but somehow EG manage to turn this into a circus.
I think a few things can be learned from this incident: 1) Its no coincidence that 4 players left TSL to join other teams. If you leave your front door wide open, dont be surprise that others will come for easy picking. It looks like TSL and the Korean player association are meeting to fix this but I just hope that they don't overeact.
2)EG is in charged of their own image/PR. You know that an organisation seriously lacks PR skills when their managing director starts insinuating that a translator is too blame for their image problems. Look at FXO, they have some controversial issues in the past but you will see Boss, Unstable, Frequency.. quickly try to clear things up and engage/explain their stands to the community.
On July 23 2011 02:34 dsousa wrote: EG did no wrong IMO. They played to win, just like the Korean's do.
Korean's should stop using peer pressure to keep player on teams that make no money and have no future. Puma doesn't owe TSL anything..... he got to play at their house, and in exchange he represented them before an audience of 85k people.
All you "do-gooders" out there would create an environment for players where they have no financial future. Where teams and coaches can lock up players for simply food, water and wifi. EG is creating a market for players, and that is what will help make western e-sport truly professional.
Korean's (God love them) are so loyal and so hard working, that coaches and manager can literally exploit kids for free for years at a time, I think this happens all over the world, but in Korea we have even seen ugly sexual exploitation going on at a team house. This wouldn't happen if players were not so desperate, and EG has helped to reverse that trend.
I have to agree in some way with this statement. We don't know how the offer was presented to Puma(it could have simply been, "you won, we have a slot open and its there if you want it'), but I don't know how AG could have presented the offer to TSL without there being some sort of issue.
And how can we be upset about the winner of NASL being offered more money for the great entertainment he gave us? He is a young kid and how can we be upset that he could be joining a team that can provide him with money, living space, travel and the ability to practice. Hell, he could even pick up a second language(if he doesnt already speak english) while he is at it?
He is a young kid and I can't be upset that he is got an offer to be paid more. If not, he should be back in school, rather than living in a room with with 6 other boys, food, water and internet. And lets not even talk about when those team houses go the extreamly dark route(ie, sexual exploitation).
That being said, AG has a bad habit of leaving his players out there for the community. EGIncontrol was raked over the coals for the SotG-nonsense. EG needs to get better about getting infront of these things. He needs someone to do PR for him if this stuff happens. We dont need an instant response, but one is needed.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves."
I knew I was forgetting something.
Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious..
FOR ESPORTS!!
Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up.
I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with.
But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is.
Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do.
On July 23 2011 00:38 ptbl wrote: Also, it's not only Team Liquid that is coming out against EG's actions. Fnatic and FXOpen have come out against EG. I'm sure their are other teams that I have missed.
Does anyone have any proof to back up this statement? There are a lot of wild claims involved with this story and at this point I am only trusting direct quotes.
Fnatic's manager Xeris made a post in the original thread, here it is.
On July 21 2011 16:49 Xeris wrote: Alex Garfield of EG talked to a lot of players at NASL, he approached Sen for example. I don't think it's particularly wrong for a conversation to take place, especially when you're at an event and just socializing with people... but it's more about actually putting a deal in place without going through the proper channels that it becomes wrong in my opinion.
For example, I have no problem talking to players (let's say DIMAGA) and saying "hey I'm wondering if you'd be interested in joining Fnatic." But knowing that he's a player on a team, that's really where the conversation needs to end. Anything further becomes a disrespect to the actual team and the whole idea of esports.
On July 23 2011 02:29 ClysmiC wrote: Totally agree with TLO and TSL on this one. Has EG even released a public statement yet? If so, where's the article? (I wasn't able to tune into Weapon of Choice T.T)
congratz, most contradictory statement yet
The WoC episode was their official statement "we approached a player, player wanted to talk to coach before we did, player not yet signed"
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves."
I knew I was forgetting something.
Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious..
FOR ESPORTS!!
Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up.
I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with.
But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is.
Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do.
Bring out the pitchforks!
Oh trust me, I didnt understand the shitstorm there either haha, it was such a small thing But their approach to the situation is directly contradictory to their approach on this one, which makes it funny.
Think about it this way if I'm working somewhere, and I'm not guaranteed money just a place to live and food and from what it sounds like the bare essentials. Along comes another company who offers me the same job but I now have a promise of money for a certain period of time. Granted I have friends and maybe I have a nice boss but that in no way means I will never consider that new job that guarantees me a paycheck and even a pay increase. Think about how many of you people would quit your old job if something you deem better for you came along
On July 23 2011 00:38 ptbl wrote: Also, it's not only Team Liquid that is coming out against EG's actions. Fnatic and FXOpen have come out against EG. I'm sure their are other teams that I have missed.
Does anyone have any proof to back up this statement? There are a lot of wild claims involved with this story and at this point I am only trusting direct quotes.
Fnatic's manager Xeris made a post in the original thread, here it is.
On July 21 2011 16:49 Xeris wrote: Alex Garfield of EG talked to a lot of players at NASL, he approached Sen for example. I don't think it's particularly wrong for a conversation to take place, especially when you're at an event and just socializing with people... but it's more about actually putting a deal in place without going through the proper channels that it becomes wrong in my opinion.
For example, I have no problem talking to players (let's say DIMAGA) and saying "hey I'm wondering if you'd be interested in joining Fnatic." But knowing that he's a player on a team, that's really where the conversation needs to end. Anything further becomes a disrespect to the actual team and the whole idea of esports.
On July 23 2011 02:29 ClysmiC wrote: Totally agree with TLO and TSL on this one. Has EG even released a public statement yet? If so, where's the article? (I wasn't able to tune into Weapon of Choice T.T)
congratz, most contradictory statement yet
The WoC episode was their official statement "we approached a player, player wanted to talk to coach before we did, player not yet signed"
Player talked with Coach and sort of made up his mind, Coach went and made a public statement(in another language), shitstorm
Somewhere in there the adults should have called eachother.
On July 23 2011 02:54 Raysalis wrote: I agree with TLO and this was also my thoughts when i posted in the other thread.
I think that the original Puma-EG incident was probably down to misunderstanding and slight mishandling of the situation which should not be a big deal if subsequently handled correctly. But EGs handling the situation was a complete PR disaster.
First PR mistake They took like 18 hours to respond to the incident, despite efforts being made to contact EG people such as sirscoots. In that time, coach Lee manage to give an update of the incident and even Incontrol manage to make a joke about it on twitter, but only silence from EG management.
2nd bigger PR mistake They decided to have a response on a semi- EG friendly show where they pit AG, executive director of EG against Milkis. At first, AG explain the situation well but instead of trying to learn from this incident and try to be more sensitive and understanding, somehow try to justify their actions by western e sports standard (which is extremely low btw) and in the end somehow manage to passive-aggressively insinuate that Milkis is somehow to blame for the shit that EG is getting?!
Other teams manage to aquire Korean players/team without any incident but somehow EG manage to turn this into a circus.
I think a few things can be learned from this incident: 1) Its no coincidence that 4 players left TSL to join other teams. If you leave your front door wide open, dont be surprise that others will come for easy picking. It looks like TSL and the Korean player association are meeting to fix this but I just hope that they don't overeact.
2)EG is in charged of their own image/PR. You know that an organisation seriously lacks PR skills when their managing director starts insinuating that a translator is too blame for their image problems. Look at FXO, they have some controversial issues in the past but you will see Boss, Unstable, Frequency.. quickly try to clear things up and engage/explain their stands to the community.
wrong, and more wrong
slasher has said this forever.
1. It was the middle of the night when the news broke, people were sleeping... 18 hours isn't that long in the world of announcments.
2. what other show were they to go on???
is there a magical thursday night show I dont know about? and if there is, do they get the same exposure as WoC.
Please....PLEASE get more educated about the situation before you comment.
On July 23 2011 00:19 h-a-r-v wrote: Tyler: I think Alex takes that into account. They've been running the team for long enough to know that. Would they be happy? Hell no. But I'm sure they know how it's like and probably that's why they have good relationships with their players as he talked about + keep them satisfied enough with their contract covenants. And I agree, was just about to reply that to TBO btw. - I would reserve some blame for Puma. The kid should have kept his mouth shut and let the team do the talking.
TBO: as above + yeah, EG might talk to the coach first but... Puma wasn't signed with TSL, thus he was deciding for himself in that case and his choice is all that matters here.
I didn't hear Alex take it into account when he was on WoC. The impression I got was like I said: purposely do the wrong thing for your own benefit, get caught, feign ignorance, apologize. It's either that or, if you want to believe everything he says: do a thing you think is acceptable, find out it's not acceptable, apologize. The read on the situation depends on whether you think Alex knew beforehand that what he was doing wasn't proper. I think he did know.
I'm not sure this can even be called feigning ignorance. I just listened to WoC, and AG said that EG had already talked to other Korean teams about acquiring players. When those teams made it clear that it would be prohibitively expensive for EG to buy their players, EG gave up that path and instead decided to talk to the individual players (e.g. Puma) directly.
What is even left for EG to pretend to be ignorant about? Rather than a deception, I got the impression that AG honestly thinks the only proper way to do business is to be kind of a dick. (The next step in this model is when people get upset in public, you sometimes have to apologize even though you don't feel like you did anything wrong.)
On July 23 2011 00:38 ptbl wrote: Also, it's not only Team Liquid that is coming out against EG's actions. Fnatic and FXOpen have come out against EG. I'm sure their are other teams that I have missed.
Does anyone have any proof to back up this statement? There are a lot of wild claims involved with this story and at this point I am only trusting direct quotes.
Fnatic's manager Xeris made a post in the original thread, here it is.
On July 21 2011 16:49 Xeris wrote: Alex Garfield of EG talked to a lot of players at NASL, he approached Sen for example. I don't think it's particularly wrong for a conversation to take place, especially when you're at an event and just socializing with people... but it's more about actually putting a deal in place without going through the proper channels that it becomes wrong in my opinion.
For example, I have no problem talking to players (let's say DIMAGA) and saying "hey I'm wondering if you'd be interested in joining Fnatic." But knowing that he's a player on a team, that's really where the conversation needs to end. Anything further becomes a disrespect to the actual team and the whole idea of esports.
Great post TLO. Add another pro gamer who has publicly stated that they would never want to work with EG.
Listening to Milkis be attacked on WoC was absolutely disgusting. To paraphrase something I saw on twitter last night, translating a book does not make you an author, and translating an article does not make you a journalist.
Alex Garfield's handling of the situation was down right horrible, and him trying to shove the blame everywhere but on himself makes me dislike EG even more than after the SotG incident.
Saying nothing but obvious corporate spin on a show that is backed by your company with an obviously bias "moderator" just makes you look bad. Pathetic, actually.
Why is this such an issue, obiously running on "trust and faith" is a completely flawed system and I dont see how for the life of me TSL thought this could at all be viable in the long run. Even if there is no salary, there should always be some sort of contract/agreement outlining rules of entry and departure of the clan/organization.
Manager Lee states that he respects the players decision, but then releases statements showing his disappointment with everything. If he truly feels that TSL is losing out by releasing Puma then why didnt he make a counter-offer to possibly sway the decision? Im sorry folks, but TSL has no one to blame but their managment. Simply having players on teams based on "trust and faith" is not possible in any other professional sport and doesnt make it applicable in esports either. I seriously hope the Korean SC2 overhaul their recruitment process so we dont have to see any of this drama in the future.
I love how half this forum puts on this mock attitude of "oh it's just business", "oh it's just sports".
Real business and real sports don't mess around like that. They keep their shit together and do it right.
Unfortunately people have this ignorant perception that sports and business is just a bunch of competition, and that competition justifies non-professionalism.
Welcome to the real world folks, EG, businesses, teams, you, everyone, We all have to actually follow the fucking rules and give our counterparts proper respect.
On July 23 2011 00:35 Z3kk wrote: Er, is TheButtonmen's linked post on the first page true? It seems to describe the situation very precisely, but I don't know where he got the information, etc.
It's as accurate as I could make it, sources are the original translated article, the follow up interview posted on Redit, AG's statements on WoC and Xeries comments about EGs recruitment offers at NASL finals. I have no supporting statements for me eating the orange though, you're going to need to take my word for that.
On July 23 2011 00:38 ptbl wrote: Also, it's not only Team Liquid that is coming out against EG's actions. Fnatic and FXOpen have come out against EG. I'm sure their are other teams that I have missed.
Does anyone have any proof to back up this statement? There are a lot of wild claims involved with this story and at this point I am only trusting direct quotes.
Fnatic's manager Xeris made a post in the original thread, here it is.
On July 21 2011 16:49 Xeris wrote: Alex Garfield of EG talked to a lot of players at NASL, he approached Sen for example. I don't think it's particularly wrong for a conversation to take place, especially when you're at an event and just socializing with people... but it's more about actually putting a deal in place without going through the proper channels that it becomes wrong in my opinion.
For example, I have no problem talking to players (let's say DIMAGA) and saying "hey I'm wondering if you'd be interested in joining Fnatic." But knowing that he's a player on a team, that's really where the conversation needs to end. Anything further becomes a disrespect to the actual team and the whole idea of esports.
Thats good to know. Do we know if the conversation was anything beyond "Well Puma, we have an open slot on EG. Its yours if you want it."?
And do we know what Puma wanted? Did he want to tell coach Lee himself?
Dumb question lol, obviously it went beyond that since they signed him without TSL knowing anything (the "actual team" Xeris' post refers to).
Puma has signed nothing with EG. EG did not go and sign him without telling his coach. Puma requested that EG let him be the one to tell his coach about the offer EG made.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves."
I knew I was forgetting something.
Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious..
FOR ESPORTS!!
Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up.
I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with.
But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is.
Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do.
Bring out the pitchforks!
You see this is the thing - if you don't UNDERSTAND why we are upset, why not admit you don't understand?
I mean, it is painfully difficult to not understand it when there's so many posts explaining their views, their opinions, and most importantly THEIR PRINCIPLES, but obviously it's still possible (whether because you didn't read it or chose to ignore it is irrelevant).
You don't decide what's a "big deal" and what isn't. I decide what's a big deal for me. TLO decides what's a big deal for him. Every single person does that. If so many of us consider it a big deal, then you coming here and telling us how it isn't and how we're all overreacting based on something you consider to be the objective truth (but really isn't) is beyond ridiculous.
This whole issue is ultimately a matter of personal standards and principles. You don't find it a big deal? That says enough about your personal standards and principles.
Nobody is pissed off at EG because it's EG, or because of any specific person in EG. One year ago, there was no bad sentiment towards EG in the community whatsoever. Between that time and now, they have done many things to change that, and people's opinion of EG changed to reflect that. It's all a consequence of their actions - not some declared witch-hunt you're imagining. The worst thing is that EG still doesn't get it or they pretend not to get it.
To me personally it's obvious that many people don't really understand the Starcraft community either (hence they don't understand why coach Lee is upset, why the Korean fans are upset, and why a lot of people on TL are upset). If you go look at all the threads related to this issue, you'll see absurd number of posts that say things like "well that's how things are done in football/basketball/soccer/counter-strike its perfectly normal" and consider it a catch-all argument - but guess what - THIS ISN'T football or basketball or soccer or counter-strike.
Try to understand the community and try to understand how things are different here and how many of us want to keep it different, and you might understand why this is a fairly big deal and why we feel so strongly about it. If you don't want to try, that's fine as well - just don't presume to tell others what should and shouldn't be a big deal for them. The same goes for EG if they don't want to become the poison brand of SC2 (even more than they are already).
On July 23 2011 02:54 Raysalis wrote: I agree with TLO and this was also my thoughts when i posted in the other thread.
I think that the original Puma-EG incident was probably down to misunderstanding and slight mishandling of the situation which should not be a big deal if subsequently handled correctly. But EGs handling the situation was a complete PR disaster.
First PR mistake They took like 18 hours to respond to the incident, despite efforts being made to contact EG people such as sirscoots. In that time, coach Lee manage to give an update of the incident and even Incontrol manage to make a joke about it on twitter, but only silence from EG management.
2nd bigger PR mistake They decided to have a response on a semi- EG friendly show where they pit AG, executive director of EG against Milkis. At first, AG explain the situation well but instead of trying to learn from this incident and try to be more sensitive and understanding, somehow try to justify their actions by western e sports standard (which is extremely low btw) and in the end somehow manage to passive-aggressively insinuate that Milkis is somehow to blame for the shit that EG is getting?!
Other teams manage to aquire Korean players/team without any incident but somehow EG manage to turn this into a circus.
I think a few things can be learned from this incident: 1) Its no coincidence that 4 players left TSL to join other teams. If you leave your front door wide open, dont be surprise that others will come for easy picking. It looks like TSL and the Korean player association are meeting to fix this but I just hope that they don't overeact.
2)EG is in charged of their own image/PR. You know that an organisation seriously lacks PR skills when their managing director starts insinuating that a translator is too blame for their image problems. Look at FXO, they have some controversial issues in the past but you will see Boss, Unstable, Frequency.. quickly try to clear things up and engage/explain their stands to the community.
wrong, and more wrong
slasher has said this forever.
1. It was the middle of the night when the news broke, people were sleeping... 18 hours isn't that long in the world of announcments.
2. what other show were they to go on???
is there a magical thursday night show I dont know about? and if there is, do they get the same exposure as WoC.
Please....PLEASE get more educated about the situation before you comment.
Ok, they were sleeping so it took them a while to repsond, fair enough.
But my second point still stand (which i think is the bigger mistake). Can you honestly say they came out of the show looking better from a PR point of view?! I think EG came out worse off after the show than before it...
On July 23 2011 03:18 TBO wrote: you are the 4th guy who confuses slasher and zlasher in this topic...
You act like 4 is a big number for that.
My reason for bringing up Rekrul's post is not for the content of the post, which is intriguing in its own right, but to show that when someone hears one side of an argument, their mind has subconsciously made up their mind on the story. Whatever EG or AG says from then on will be seen only in the shadow of the original argument and it will become a secondary, and thus side note. When you allow something to blow up like that the mob mentality comes out once again.
Imagine if TSL were painted as some evil empire that stole the two biggest names in starcraft 2 from oGs, improperly allocated salary funding heavily to those players, who have since left the team and now sit back to where they were originally. A team of players they 'grew'.
We can look at this situation one of two ways. The signing of the player or the PR related afterwards. If someone wants to talk about how they dealt with the PR, with how they mistreated Milkis or attacked him, then fair enough, it seems that in the world of SC journalism finding both sides to the story is not prioritized over getting whatever news is out, out. If we want to talk about the signing of the player, is everyone saying that EG is to blame for not contacting Coach Lee?
How about Tyler's point which is the best made, that Puma had several opportunities to immediately go to his coach in between all these talks? People saying that Coach Lee could not have had anyone from EG's contact info, well isn't that assumption as safe to make as EG not having Coach Lee's contact info? At what point can the line just be drawn that Puma was not on contract, EG pursued him, Puma accepted and only then, talked to his coach who was none too happy to hear in that manner. This is the series of events that occurred, what can anyone do about this now?
On July 23 2011 03:18 Arkan wrote: Why is this such an issue, obiously running on "trust and faith" is a completely flawed system and I dont see how for the life of me TSL thought this could at all be viable in the long run. Even if there is no salary, there should always be some sort of contract/agreement outlining rules of entry and departure of the clan/organization.
Manager Lee states that he respects the players decision, but then releases statements showing his disappointment with everything. If he truly feels that TSL is losing out by releasing Puma then why didnt he make a counter-offer to possibly sway the decision? Im sorry folks, but TSL has no one to blame but their managment. Simply having players on teams based on "trust and faith" is not possible in any other professional sport and doesnt make it applicable in esports either. I seriously hope the Korean SC2 overhaul their recruitment process so we dont have to see any of this drama in the future.
I don't see why more people don't see it this way. We have rules and regulations because "trust and faith" doesn't work.
EG is what happens when money becomes more important than integrity, I'd like to believe that eSports can sustain a higher level of morality than traditional sports do.
It's obvious TSL didn't want to get rid PuMa. It's obvious that signing TSL's top player without contacting the manager is sneaky and immoral. It's obvious that the possibility to cheaply sign one of the best players in the world was more important to EG than the, again, obvious backlash it would cause. It basically says: "we don't care about the integrity of eSports nor the relations between the foreigner and Korean scene, we're just going to smash and grab whatever we can and act dumb when we're confronted"
It's sad that when the focal point of Starcraft starts shifting to the West, a team like EG without hesitation drops the morals set by 10 years of Korean Starcraft and starts doing things "the American way". It's a clear sign of disrespect towards a community that EG members themselves proclaimed to be the "Mecca of eSports". But whatever, when Starcraft 2 shows signs of not being centered around Korea in terms of popularity, we can drop our pretty words of admiration for the Korean work ethic and create our own league, neutrally calling it the North American Starleague, as a guise for a recruitment camp, since good relations with Korean teams is out the window with the emergence of big Western competitions, right EG? When it's legal it's not wrong ... right?
Sorry, but I find their management disgustingly self-centered and shortsighted. I hope their sponsors get a good bit of flack, a hurting wallet might be the only thing that can reach them at this point.
On July 23 2011 03:36 Saechiis wrote: It's obvious TSL didn't want to get rid PuMa. It's obvious that signing TSL's top player without contacting the manager is sneaky and immoral. It's obvious that the possibility to cheaply sign one of the best players in the world was more important to EG than the, again, obvious backlash it would cause.
...I'm so glad the TL community actually reads and finds out what happened before jumping to conclusions.
Puma has not been signed with EG. There is nothing signed between Puma and EG. Puma is the one who requested that EG does not contact his coach.
Again here is to the best of my knowledge how everthing went down based off of the 2 translated interviews, AGs statements on WoC and Xeris comments about EGs recruitment at NASL.
On July 23 2011 03:12 Ingebrigtsen wrote: wrong, and more wrong
slasher has said this forever.
1. It was the middle of the night when the news broke, people were sleeping... 18 hours isn't that long in the world of announcments.
18 hours is HUGE in the world of announcements. Because you know why? Judging by how fast the TL thread grew, it wasn't the middle of the night for large amounts of people. It'd be one thing if EG maintained total radio silence during that time. Instead, SirScoots and Incontrol were obviously aware of the thread due to their light hearted tweets referencing the Korean articles during that 18 hours.
EG screwed the pooch on PR on this one. A simple statement like "We did not contact Coach Lee because Puma requested that he talk to Coach Lee first" would have quelled a large portion of the firestorm.
Instead, they let it grow and then complained on Weapon of Choice that no one reached out to them for comment. Uh, sure, that's true. But why should someone need to reach out when they obviously already knew about the thread and were joking about it?
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: Oh man the best part about the whole EG-Puma debate was Milkis (a neutral party, translator) being attacked by the EG's Executive director on Weapon of Choice for not contacting EG about their stance, while all he did was translate (and provide an opinion on his own twitter). The hilarity in this situation is AMAZING. EG did not contact coach lee, EG did not try to explain anything, EG did literally nothing. So a translator should be responsible for EG public relations. Fail...
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves." And that was an official topic on their own tournament...
Hypocrits.
Haha thanks for the perspective beyonder, its quite good.
I don't think its a huge deal, however it seems like with alot of these esports crises, its the management of them that causes more controversy. (I.E. like attacking milkis, completely uncalled for.) Hopefully EG improves in crisis management and we can have less e-sports drama.
Well, it's either adapt or perish and the western scene is just growing larger and larger, it comes down to natural selection, the Korean style of running eSport with all it's regulations and incest like mentality doesn't function when it goes to a global scale and I thought people knew this, but I guess the majority haven't followed other global eSport games.
I'd guess a lot of people like to cling onto how it was in SC:BW, but SC2 is a whole new ballgame. Just trying to keep it real, flame on.
ya they have double standards.... scoot is sly...idra is cry baby, incontrol is stupid ( said total biscuit came to starcraft just for money....) ..they r very unprofessional themselves....
...to show that when someone hears one side of an argument, their mind has subconsciously made up their mind on the story. Whatever EG or AG says from then on will be seen only in the shadow of the original argument and it will become a secondary, and thus side note. When you allow something to blow up like that the mob mentality comes out once again.
Anyone who does that is no better than a sheep. :/
On July 23 2011 03:12 Ingebrigtsen wrote: wrong, and more wrong
slasher has said this forever.
1. It was the middle of the night when the news broke, people were sleeping... 18 hours isn't that long in the world of announcments.
18 hours is HUGE in the world of announcements. Because you know why? Judging by how fast the TL thread grew, it wasn't the middle of the night for large amounts of people. It'd be one thing if EG maintained total radio silence during that time. Instead, SirScoots and Incontrol were obviously aware of the thread due to their light hearted tweets referencing the Korean articles during that 18 hours.
EG screwed the pooch on PR on this one. A simple statement like "We did not contact Coach Lee because Puma requested that he talk to Coach Lee first" would have quelled a large portion of the firestorm.
Instead, they let it grow and then complained on Weapon of Choice that no one reached out to them for comment. Uh, sure, that's true. But why should someone need to reach out when they obviously already knew about the thread and were joking about it?
So you don't want TL to be treated as a source requiring journalistic integrity, but you expect EG to treat it as a source to determine when they need to provide an answer based on how large the thread on the topic gets?
On July 23 2011 03:18 Arkan wrote: Why is this such an issue, obiously running on "trust and faith" is a completely flawed system and I dont see how for the life of me TSL thought this could at all be viable in the long run. Even if there is no salary, there should always be some sort of contract/agreement outlining rules of entry and departure of the clan/organization.
Manager Lee states that he respects the players decision, but then releases statements showing his disappointment with everything. If he truly feels that TSL is losing out by releasing Puma then why didnt he make a counter-offer to possibly sway the decision? Im sorry folks, but TSL has no one to blame but their managment. Simply having players on teams based on "trust and faith" is not possible in any other professional sport and doesnt make it applicable in esports either. I seriously hope the Korean SC2 overhaul their recruitment process so we dont have to see any of this drama in the future.
I don't see why more people don't see it this way. We have rules and regulations because "trust and faith" doesn't work.
5 out of 5, would read again. This blog is about one of the various reasons why I stand where I stand. Too bad for EG, spin is the last thing you need on this ride.
On July 23 2011 03:12 Ingebrigtsen wrote: wrong, and more wrong
slasher has said this forever.
1. It was the middle of the night when the news broke, people were sleeping... 18 hours isn't that long in the world of announcments.
18 hours is HUGE in the world of announcements. Because you know why? Judging by how fast the TL thread grew, it wasn't the middle of the night for large amounts of people. It'd be one thing if EG maintained total radio silence during that time. Instead, SirScoots and Incontrol were obviously aware of the thread due to their light hearted tweets referencing the Korean articles during that 18 hours.
EG screwed the pooch on PR on this one. A simple statement like "We did not contact Coach Lee because Puma requested that he talk to Coach Lee first" would have quelled a large portion of the firestorm.
Instead, they let it grow and then complained on Weapon of Choice that no one reached out to them for comment. Uh, sure, that's true. But why should someone need to reach out when they obviously already knew about the thread and were joking about it?
So you don't want TL to be treated as a source requiring journalistic integrity, but you expect EG to treat it as a source to determine when they need to provide an answer based on how large the thread on the topic gets?
All he's saying is that its EG's fault for letting this situation blow up in their face, they could have presented all the information about their interactions with puma earlier, but didn't. As a result you have all these people who read TSL's reaction without hearing EG's response and its hurting EG. If EG didn't want all this fallout, they should have responded sooner.
On July 23 2011 03:36 Saechiis wrote: It's obvious TSL didn't want to get rid PuMa. It's obvious that signing TSL's top player without contacting the manager is sneaky and immoral. It's obvious that the possibility to cheaply sign one of the best players in the world was more important to EG than the, again, obvious backlash it would cause.
...I'm so glad the TL community actually reads and finds out what happened before jumping to conclusions.
Puma has not been signed with EG. There is nothing signed between Puma and EG. Puma is the one who requested that EG does not contact his coach.
Again here is to the best of my knowledge how everthing went down based off of the 2 translated interviews, AGs statements on WoC and Xeris comments about EGs recruitment at NASL.
Saying PuMa hasn't "officially" signed yet is as relevant to the discussion as the notion that EG "strictly" didn't do anything illegal. Integrity isn't measurable by paper rules.
Blaming PuMa is even funnier, seriously, EG is a professional organisation, they know damn well they have the moral obligation to create a smooth transition. Pretending they thought PuMa would just go tell his coach he'd be joining EG after having talked to them in a foreign tournament and think there'd be no hard feelings is hilarious. Don't know how you can pretend EG has no part in this.
On July 23 2011 03:12 Ingebrigtsen wrote: wrong, and more wrong
slasher has said this forever.
1. It was the middle of the night when the news broke, people were sleeping... 18 hours isn't that long in the world of announcments.
18 hours is HUGE in the world of announcements. Because you know why? Judging by how fast the TL thread grew, it wasn't the middle of the night for large amounts of people. It'd be one thing if EG maintained total radio silence during that time. Instead, SirScoots and Incontrol were obviously aware of the thread due to their light hearted tweets referencing the Korean articles during that 18 hours.
EG screwed the pooch on PR on this one. A simple statement like "We did not contact Coach Lee because Puma requested that he talk to Coach Lee first" would have quelled a large portion of the firestorm.
Instead, they let it grow and then complained on Weapon of Choice that no one reached out to them for comment. Uh, sure, that's true. But why should someone need to reach out when they obviously already knew about the thread and were joking about it?
So you don't want TL to be treated as a source requiring journalistic integrity, but you expect EG to treat it as a source to determine when they need to provide an answer based on how large the thread on the topic gets?
All he's saying is that its EG's fault for letting this situation blow up in their face, they could have presented all the information about their interactions with puma earlier, but didn't. As a result you have all these people who read TSL's reaction without hearing EG's response and its hurting EG. If EG didn't want all this fallout, they should have responded sooner.
I wonder what would have happened if, instead of going to Twitter during an emotional moment, Coach Lee had waited to contact EG and discuss this behind the scenes.
It seems like everyone wants to have management treat TL as a source for journalism, but not anyone else...
On July 23 2011 03:18 Arkan wrote: Why is this such an issue, obiously running on "trust and faith" is a completely flawed system and I dont see how for the life of me TSL thought this could at all be viable in the long run. Even if there is no salary, there should always be some sort of contract/agreement outlining rules of entry and departure of the clan/organization.
Manager Lee states that he respects the players decision, but then releases statements showing his disappointment with everything. If he truly feels that TSL is losing out by releasing Puma then why didnt he make a counter-offer to possibly sway the decision? Im sorry folks, but TSL has no one to blame but their managment. Simply having players on teams based on "trust and faith" is not possible in any other professional sport and doesnt make it applicable in esports either. I seriously hope the Korean SC2 overhaul their recruitment process so we dont have to see any of this drama in the future.
I don't see why more people don't see it this way. We have rules and regulations because "trust and faith" doesn't work.
It did work 100% perfect, everyone respected the way korea did things, until EG came along.
I don't think its 100% perfect when a player who is not under a contract must ask permission to discuss possibly getting a better deal for himself. Don't some Korean players already have contracts??
After reading the whole thread I only get 1 thing clear, and is that big names in form of players, should be contained when they talk about stuff that might cause trouble in the relations betwheen their team and other teams. Because TLO uninformed blog, and Tyler's hate towards EG funeled in calling people stupid for standing with them to my ears sound really bad. And I will guess a lot others too. Guys, you should shut up your mouths when talking in public and creating opinion, because I would not be surprised ig EG management is very angry with Team Liquid.
And I thought I had enough hearing about Fabregas every single day <.<
On July 23 2011 03:36 Saechiis wrote: It's obvious TSL didn't want to get rid PuMa. It's obvious that signing TSL's top player without contacting the manager is sneaky and immoral. It's obvious that the possibility to cheaply sign one of the best players in the world was more important to EG than the, again, obvious backlash it would cause.
...I'm so glad the TL community actually reads and finds out what happened before jumping to conclusions.
Puma has not been signed with EG. There is nothing signed between Puma and EG. Puma is the one who requested that EG does not contact his coach.
Again here is to the best of my knowledge how everthing went down based off of the 2 translated interviews, AGs statements on WoC and Xeris comments about EGs recruitment at NASL.
Saying PuMa hasn't "officially" signed yet is as relevant to the discussion as the notion that EG "strictly" didn't do anything illegal. Integrity isn't measurable by paper rules.
Blaming PuMa is even funnier, seriously, EG is a professional organisation, they know damn well they have the moral obligation to create a smooth transition. Pretending they thought PuMa would just go tell his coach he'd be joining EG after having talked to them in a foreign tournament and think there'd be no hard feelings is hilarious. Don't know how you can pretend EG has no part in this.
So in other words you didn't actually read what I linked and you just want to show how angry you are?
Gotcha, don't care, either disagree with the facts I laid out at the link or ignore but don't throw baseless comments about me blaming Puma around.
On July 23 2011 03:12 Ingebrigtsen wrote: wrong, and more wrong
slasher has said this forever.
1. It was the middle of the night when the news broke, people were sleeping... 18 hours isn't that long in the world of announcments.
18 hours is HUGE in the world of announcements. Because you know why? Judging by how fast the TL thread grew, it wasn't the middle of the night for large amounts of people. It'd be one thing if EG maintained total radio silence during that time. Instead, SirScoots and Incontrol were obviously aware of the thread due to their light hearted tweets referencing the Korean articles during that 18 hours.
EG screwed the pooch on PR on this one. A simple statement like "We did not contact Coach Lee because Puma requested that he talk to Coach Lee first" would have quelled a large portion of the firestorm.
Instead, they let it grow and then complained on Weapon of Choice that no one reached out to them for comment. Uh, sure, that's true. But why should someone need to reach out when they obviously already knew about the thread and were joking about it?
So you don't want TL to be treated as a source requiring journalistic integrity, but you expect EG to treat it as a source to determine when they need to provide an answer based on how large the thread on the topic gets?
All he's saying is that its EG's fault for letting this situation blow up in their face, they could have presented all the information about their interactions with puma earlier, but didn't. As a result you have all these people who read TSL's reaction without hearing EG's response and its hurting EG. If EG didn't want all this fallout, they should have responded sooner.
I wonder what would have happened if, instead of going to Twitter during an emotional moment, Coach Lee had waited to contact EG and discuss this behind the scenes.
It seems like everyone wants to have management treat TL as a source for journalism, but not anyone else...
EG had already approached his player as opposed to going to him first. Why should he go to the management before posting on twitter? I agree that it would have been better to talk to EG first, but you can't blame the manager for his perspective.
On July 23 2011 03:12 Ingebrigtsen wrote: wrong, and more wrong
slasher has said this forever.
1. It was the middle of the night when the news broke, people were sleeping... 18 hours isn't that long in the world of announcments.
18 hours is HUGE in the world of announcements. Because you know why? Judging by how fast the TL thread grew, it wasn't the middle of the night for large amounts of people. It'd be one thing if EG maintained total radio silence during that time. Instead, SirScoots and Incontrol were obviously aware of the thread due to their light hearted tweets referencing the Korean articles during that 18 hours.
EG screwed the pooch on PR on this one. A simple statement like "We did not contact Coach Lee because Puma requested that he talk to Coach Lee first" would have quelled a large portion of the firestorm.
Instead, they let it grow and then complained on Weapon of Choice that no one reached out to them for comment. Uh, sure, that's true. But why should someone need to reach out when they obviously already knew about the thread and were joking about it?
So you don't want TL to be treated as a source requiring journalistic integrity, but you expect EG to treat it as a source to determine when they need to provide an answer based on how large the thread on the topic gets?
All he's saying is that its EG's fault for letting this situation blow up in their face, they could have presented all the information about their interactions with puma earlier, but didn't. As a result you have all these people who read TSL's reaction without hearing EG's response and its hurting EG. If EG didn't want all this fallout, they should have responded sooner.
I wonder what would have happened if, instead of going to Twitter during an emotional moment, Coach Lee had waited to contact EG and discuss this behind the scenes.
It seems like everyone wants to have management treat TL as a source for journalism, but not anyone else...
EG had already approached his player as opposed to going to him first. Why should he go to the management before posting on twitter? I agree that it would have been better to talk to EG first, but you can't blame the manager for his perspective.
The "they did something bad, so I don't have to take the high ground and can do the same as them" is an immature approach, and I would hope that professionals can rise above it.
I see no reason that this needed to be handled the way it was. That is all I am saying. Two wrongs don't make a right, and the wrong have the choice to rise above and do things the right way.
Another thing I don't understand is people looking to defend EG, what's in it for you and how would you know if you aren't part of the organization. Just look at how much community backlash and controversy occured, if you still agree with their decision while acknowledging what has resulted, then you are just plain naive.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
Not bashing you but communication moves entirely way to fast for that now-a-days. Why would we EVEN want a lesser standard? I want as much information as possible as soon as possible.
I visit, TL, Reddit, wellplayed.org and players twitter accounts to get that information as soon as possible. I don't want to wait for a true journalist to spin a story out. You know the old saying there are a million sides of the story and I want to see all of them. I'll decide who the good guy is or bad guy.
I have to disagree with you TLO sorry. This is how professional sports team run (at least in America). If there is a player that's a free agent or on the waiver wire, other teams will try to snatch them up even without "caring about consequences towards third parties." EG had no responsibility to contact TSL regarding their attempt to acquire Puma IMHO!
Also, Milkis's tweet "Puma gets released from TSL due to Evil Geniuses" puts a bad image on EG that I feel is not deserving. It isn't due to EG. It is TSL's mistake of not locking a player down and is now paying the price for it. Plain and simple.
On July 23 2011 04:14 adeezy wrote: Another thing I don't understand is people looking to defend EG, what's in it for you and how would you know if you aren't part of the organization. Just look at how much community backlash and controversy occured, if you still agree with their decision while acknowledging what has resulted, then you are just plain naive.
Another thing I don't understand is people looking to mindlessly bandwagon this, what's in it for you and how would you know anything if you aren't part of the organization. Just look at how much community backlash and controversy occured, if you still agree with the community mindlessly bandwagoning without even trying to get the facts while acknowledging what has resulted, then you are just plain naive.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
Not bashing you but communication moves entirely way to fast for that now-a-days. Why would we EVEN want a lesser standard? I want as much information as possible as soon as possible.
I visit, TL, Reddit, wellplayed.org and players twitter accounts to get that information as soon as possible. I don't want to wait for a true journalist to spin a story out. You know the old saying there are a million sides of the story and I want to see all of them. I'll decide who the good guy is or bad guy.
Thats up to you but we listen to news because 99 times out of 100 true journalists check their facts. If they don't they lose their job. I'm not bashing anyone here but to say that you would rather hear information than wait a bit and actually know what is going on is just silly. We have this thing called slander which basically means if you are reporting false information about me I can sue you
1. EG wants a top level Korean player. 2. Top level Koreans come over to NASL finals. 3. EG hands out cards seeing if anyone is interested. 4. Puma is interested and talks to EG staff, when they find out he is open to the idea of working for them, has no contract and no salary they need to compete with they lay out what they are prepared to offer, Puma is interested but he wants to be the one to talk to his coach rather then EG, EG agrees. 5. Puma talks to his coach, coach isn't impressed and thinks that Puma and EG have gone and signed behind his back. (Please note that EG and Puma haven't signed or agreed to anything yet.) 6. Coach feels disrespected and starts this whole thing with his posts. 7. The standard drama fueled shitfest occurs. 8. EG finds out about all of this. 9. Coach clarifies what he meant / what happened as mis-communications start to get cleared up (hell he even throws Puma a goodbye party) 10. EG speaks out on Lo3, saying they didn't do anything wrong and they followed their potential new players wishs. (Again note that EG and Puma still haven't signed anything still.) 11. Dramallamas continue to frolic. 12. EG opens mouth and inserts foot re: what team liquid is for (while I agree partially with them this sure as hell wasn't the time). 13. Even more shit hits the fan as TL defends one of their own.
first of all the goodbye party was way before step 9, it was before step 6 from every indication. Also despite the fact that no contract was signed, at least coach lee and likely puma felt it was concrete enough to go forward with this.
I would say that the point at which eg should have contacted coach lee is after step 3 and before step 4, before laying out their offer.
People are seriously misunderstanding what is required of journalism. Journalists have no obligation to wait for anyone to tell their story. What do you think "breaking news" would look like if you had to wait for everyone to get their PR division rolling? If you are late on your press release that doesn't mean journalists don't have a right to rely on the sources they already have to construct a story.
On July 23 2011 04:14 adeezy wrote: Another thing I don't understand is people looking to defend EG, what's in it for you and how would you know if you aren't part of the organization. Just look at how much community backlash and controversy occured, if you still agree with their decision while acknowledging what has resulted, then you are just plain naive.
Another thing I don't understand is people looking to mindlessly bandwagon this, what's in it for you and how would you know anything if you aren't part of the organization. Just look at how much community backlash and controversy occured, if you still agree with the community mindlessly bandwagoning without even trying to get the facts while acknowledging what has resulted, then you are just plain naive.
Goes both ways.
im acknowledging how much controversy and backlash is going on not just from the community but players like TLO who are acknowledging how bad of a move it was from EG. On the contrary youre just bandwagonning the defense it seems
Facts? If you want to look at the facts all signs point to EG being hte bad guys
On July 23 2011 04:14 adeezy wrote: Another thing I don't understand is people looking to defend EG, what's in it for you and how would you know if you aren't part of the organization. Just look at how much community backlash and controversy occured, if you still agree with their decision while acknowledging what has resulted, then you are just plain naive.
Another thing I don't understand is people looking to mindlessly bandwagon this, what's in it for you and how would you know anything if you aren't part of the organization. Just look at how much community backlash and controversy occured, if you still agree with the community mindlessly bandwagoning without even trying to get the facts while acknowledging what has resulted, then you are just plain naive.
Goes both ways.
im acknowledging how much controversy and backlash is going on not just from the community but players like TLO who are acknowledging how bad of a move it was from EG. On the contrary youre just bandwagonning the defense it seems
Facts? If you want to look at the facts all signs point to EG being hte bad guys
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
Not bashing you but communication moves entirely way to fast for that now-a-days. Why would we EVEN want a lesser standard? I want as much information as possible as soon as possible.
I visit, TL, Reddit, wellplayed.org and players twitter accounts to get that information as soon as possible. I don't want to wait for a true journalist to spin a story out. You know the old saying there are a million sides of the story and I want to see all of them. I'll decide who the good guy is or bad guy.
Thats up to you but we listen to news because 99 times out of 100 true journalists check their facts. If they don't they lose their job. I'm not bashing anyone here but to say that you would rather hear information than wait a bit and actually know what is going on is just silly. We have this thing called slander which basically means if you are reporting false information about me I can sue you
can you point out the things in the playxp article which are false information?
On July 23 2011 04:26 sickoota wrote: People are seriously misunderstanding what is required of journalism. Journalists have no obligation to wait for anyone to tell their story. What do you think "breaking news" would look like if you had to wait for everyone to get their PR division rolling? If you are late on your press release that doesn't mean journalists don't have a right to rely on the sources they already have to construct a story.
this exactly... journalists should not post stuff from unreliable sources but they don't need to wait for everyones perspective. IF that was needed, news could be denied by just never providing an answer
Some may or may not disagree with me, but I don't feel like it is TLO's place to really comment on this situation, as being on a rival team to EG, it just doesn't seem right to me. I think that people are being extremely harsh to EG having the opinion that they are doing wrong and acting without morals and so forth, however I am of the firm belief that this is the fault of Korean teams own Naivety. It strikes me that the teams in Korea have an attitude along the lines of, "we don't need to contract players, nobody would ever take our players (as I'm guessing Korean find it "immoral" to take from other Korean teams) and why would a Korean player ever want to or think of joining a foreign team cuz the GSL is so super awesome." Well they just shot themselves in the foot as I see it, if there are no contracts, why should a team talk to the coach first, EG did the decent thing and suggested talking to the TSL coach. Also, creating an opinion as a lot of people did just off of the TSL's coach is extremely single-minded, as I'm sure the TSL coach is frustrated and had an outburst of sorts. EG do not need to apologise for trying to do business, I feel Alex on WoC made some very good comments while trying to remain profession. Btw, I have no preference of team, in case you are wondering.
On July 23 2011 04:18 JadedKnight wrote: I have to disagree with you TLO sorry. This is how professional sports team run (at least in America). If there is a player that's a free agent or on the waiver wire, other teams will try to snatch them up even without "caring about consequences towards third parties." EG had no responsibility to contact TSL regarding their attempt to acquire Puma IMHO!
Also, Milkis's tweet "Puma gets released from TSL due to Evil Geniuses" puts a bad image on EG that I feel is not deserving. It isn't due to EG. It is TSL's mistake of not locking a player down and is now paying the price for it. Plain and simple.
If I'm in Lee's shoes. I have no choice but to release the said player because he's already been compromised. American teams work a lot differently across the board. If we're talking about MLB/NHL/NBA/NFL (creme of the crop) then they have certain policies in place for code of conduct, free agency and signing players from other organizations.
As for Milkes comments on Twitter, once again. That's his personal account man. He can say whatever the f he wants on his own Twitter. He's allowed to have an opinion on the matter and that is separate from the articles/interviews he translates. I don't know how some of you can keep missing that point.
You remember how your professors always told you never to cite Wikipedia in your assignments? Same rules apply to Twitter.
Twitter is only used for breaking stories.
On July 23 2011 04:29 Seicianto wrote: Some may or may not disagree with me, but I don't feel like it is TLO's place to really comment on this situation, as being on a rival team to EG, it just doesn't seem right to me. I think that people are being extremely harsh to EG having the opinion that they are doing wrong and acting without morals and so forth, however I am of the firm belief that this is the fault of Korean teams own Naivety. It strikes me that the teams in Korea have an attitude along the lines of, "we don't need to contract players, nobody would ever take our players (as I'm guessing Korean find it "immoral" to take from other Korean teams) and why would a Korean player ever want to or think of joining a foreign team cuz the GSL is so super awesome." Well they just shot themselves in the foot as I see it, if there are no contracts, why should a team talk to the coach first, EG did the decent thing and suggested talking to the TSL coach. Also, creating an opinion as a lot of people did just off of the TSL's coach is extremely single-minded, as I'm sure the TSL coach is frustrated and had an outburst of sorts. EG do not need to apologise for trying to do business, I feel Alex on WoC made some very good comments while trying to remain profession. Btw, I have no preference of team, in case you are wondering.
Freedom of speech. The guy is well embedded in the scene, so he can offer the community something most people cannot. He's entitled to his opinion just the same as you are regardless of being on rival teams.
Alex made a fool of himself on WoC. I couldn't disagree with you more.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
Not bashing you but communication moves entirely way to fast for that now-a-days. Why would we EVEN want a lesser standard? I want as much information as possible as soon as possible.
I visit, TL, Reddit, wellplayed.org and players twitter accounts to get that information as soon as possible. I don't want to wait for a true journalist to spin a story out. You know the old saying there are a million sides of the story and I want to see all of them. I'll decide who the good guy is or bad guy.
Thats up to you but we listen to news because 99 times out of 100 true journalists check their facts. If they don't they lose their job. I'm not bashing anyone here but to say that you would rather hear information than wait a bit and actually know what is going on is just silly. We have this thing called slander which basically means if you are reporting false information about me I can sue you
can you point out the things in the playxp article which are false information?
I'm not saying anything in any article is false I'm just saying that I would rather people take the time to write up correct facts and be sure that they are correct than just yelling out everything they hear the minute they hear it
To be honest the person I feel worst for in this situation is Puma. There's lots of talk of if what EG did was good or bad, or if the Koreans should just adapt and not get to be 'culturally-offended' by the way things happened, but at the end of the day Puma was the one who had to go talk to his coach, who as far as I know is a big deal in Korea, and say 'I'm gone', before he had a contract signed. Puma shouldn't have to do that, for the simple reason that it burns bridges. Because of the way it's been done his coach is offended and EG now have a PR disaster on their hands that means they could just turn around and say 'you aren't worth our trouble'. Whatever about translations or opinions, it should've been done in a professional manner that didn't put Puma's career at risk.
On July 23 2011 04:29 Seicianto wrote: Some may or may not disagree with me, but I don't feel like it is TLO's place to really comment on this situation, as being on a rival team to EG, it just doesn't seem right to me. I think that people are being extremely harsh to EG having the opinion that they are doing wrong and acting without morals and so forth, however I am of the firm belief that this is the fault of Korean teams own Naivety. It strikes me that the teams in Korea have an attitude along the lines of, "we don't need to contract players, nobody would ever take our players (as I'm guessing Korean find it "immoral" to take from other Korean teams) and why would a Korean player ever want to or think of joining a foreign team cuz the GSL is so super awesome." Well they just shot themselves in the foot as I see it, if there are no contracts, why should a team talk to the coach first, EG did the decent thing and suggested talking to the TSL coach. Also, creating an opinion as a lot of people did just off of the TSL's coach is extremely single-minded, as I'm sure the TSL coach is frustrated and had an outburst of sorts. EG do not need to apologise for trying to do business, I feel Alex on WoC made some very good comments while trying to remain profession. Btw, I have no preference of team, in case you are wondering.
hes not speaking as a spokesperson as liquid. hes just the player and this is a public forum so he can say what he wants. I think he was especially upset about milkis getting ambushed on WoP. besides EG doesnt give a shit what other people think why shouldnt he make his opinion known?
personally, and i think i speak for a lot of people, i like it when pros speak their minds.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
Not bashing you but communication moves entirely way to fast for that now-a-days. Why would we EVEN want a lesser standard? I want as much information as possible as soon as possible.
I visit, TL, Reddit, wellplayed.org and players twitter accounts to get that information as soon as possible. I don't want to wait for a true journalist to spin a story out. You know the old saying there are a million sides of the story and I want to see all of them. I'll decide who the good guy is or bad guy.
Thats up to you but we listen to news because 99 times out of 100 true journalists check their facts. If they don't they lose their job. I'm not bashing anyone here but to say that you would rather hear information than wait a bit and actually know what is going on is just silly. We have this thing called slander which basically means if you are reporting false information about me I can sue you
can you point out the things in the playxp article which are false information?
I'm not saying anything in any article is false I'm just saying that I would rather people take the time to write up correct facts and be sure that they are correct than just yelling out everything they hear the minute they hear it
#
As a general statement I can agree with this, however in this specific context Milkis got attacked for translating a correct statement from a reliable source (playxp) who themselves had a reliable source (Coach of TSL).
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
Not bashing you but communication moves entirely way to fast for that now-a-days. Why would we EVEN want a lesser standard? I want as much information as possible as soon as possible.
I visit, TL, Reddit, wellplayed.org and players twitter accounts to get that information as soon as possible. I don't want to wait for a true journalist to spin a story out. You know the old saying there are a million sides of the story and I want to see all of them. I'll decide who the good guy is or bad guy.
Thats up to you but we listen to news because 99 times out of 100 true journalists check their facts. If they don't they lose their job. I'm not bashing anyone here but to say that you would rather hear information than wait a bit and actually know what is going on is just silly. We have this thing called slander which basically means if you are reporting false information about me I can sue you
can you point out the things in the playxp article which are false information?
I'm not saying anything in any article is false I'm just saying that I would rather people take the time to write up correct facts and be sure that they are correct than just yelling out everything they hear the minute they hear it
#
As a general statement I can agree with this, however in this specific context Milkis got attacked for translating a correct statement from a reliable source (playxp) who themselves had a reliable source (Coach of TSL).
Thats what I'm saying as a general thing I understand that playxp did their work and Milkis did his too. Im just saying that if people just listen to everything anyone says for the sake of getting a story out as fast as they can its a terrible idea and it makes all news untrustworthy
On July 23 2011 04:29 Seicianto wrote: Some may or may not disagree with me, but I don't feel like it is TLO's place to really comment on this situation, as being on a rival team to EG, it just doesn't seem right to me. I think that people are being extremely harsh to EG having the opinion that they are doing wrong and acting without morals and so forth, however I am of the firm belief that this is the fault of Korean teams own Naivety. It strikes me that the teams in Korea have an attitude along the lines of, "we don't need to contract players, nobody would ever take our players (as I'm guessing Korean find it "immoral" to take from other Korean teams) and why would a Korean player ever want to or think of joining a foreign team cuz the GSL is so super awesome." Well they just shot themselves in the foot as I see it, if there are no contracts, why should a team talk to the coach first, EG did the decent thing and suggested talking to the TSL coach. Also, creating an opinion as a lot of people did just off of the TSL's coach is extremely single-minded, as I'm sure the TSL coach is frustrated and had an outburst of sorts. EG do not need to apologise for trying to do business, I feel Alex on WoC made some very good comments while trying to remain profession. Btw, I have no preference of team, in case you are wondering.
hes not speaking as a spokesperson as liquid. hes just the player and this is a public forum so he can say what he wants. I think he was especially upset about milkis getting ambushed on WoP. besides EG doesnt give a shit what other people think why shouldnt he make his opinion known?
personally, and i think i speak for a lot of people, i like it when pros speak their minds.
I agree on a level with you, you have a good point. Although he is still contracted to Team Liquid and every knows his affiliation with Team Liquid. In football (soccer), you wont get very often people from one team talking about something unprofessional on the business side of another rival team, as it would just start a slinging match that would last for existence. I do in a way feel sorry for Milkis, I don't think he really should have been on the show, I don't know how much he knows about business but he didn't seem too knowledgeable.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
Not bashing you but communication moves entirely way to fast for that now-a-days. Why would we EVEN want a lesser standard? I want as much information as possible as soon as possible.
I visit, TL, Reddit, wellplayed.org and players twitter accounts to get that information as soon as possible. I don't want to wait for a true journalist to spin a story out. You know the old saying there are a million sides of the story and I want to see all of them. I'll decide who the good guy is or bad guy.
Thats up to you but we listen to news because 99 times out of 100 true journalists check their facts. If they don't they lose their job. I'm not bashing anyone here but to say that you would rather hear information than wait a bit and actually know what is going on is just silly. We have this thing called slander which basically means if you are reporting false information about me I can sue you
Its not silly at all. Let me guess you waited 18 hours for the PR release for EG? No you didn't. I think someone said it in this thread related to this PuMa stuff but if you're 1 hour behind on the internet you are a day behind in the real world.
eSports has been underground for so long its followers have learned how to get their own information through their own means which are much quicker and multi-faceted compared to the traditional sports media model that Zlasher was suggesting was a standard that we try to adopt.
1. EG wants a top level Korean player. 2. Top level Koreans come over to NASL finals. 3. EG hands out cards seeing if anyone is interested. 4. Puma is interested and talks to EG staff, when they find out he is open to the idea of working for them, has no contract and no salary they need to compete with they lay out what they are prepared to offer, Puma is interested but he wants to be the one to talk to his coach rather then EG, EG agrees. 5. Puma talks to his coach, coach isn't impressed and thinks that Puma and EG have gone and signed behind his back. (Please note that EG and Puma haven't signed or agreed to anything yet.) 6. Coach feels disrespected and starts this whole thing with his posts. 7. The standard drama fueled shitfest occurs. 8. EG finds out about all of this. 9. Coach clarifies what he meant / what happened as mis-communications start to get cleared up (hell he even throws Puma a goodbye party) 10. EG speaks out on Lo3, saying they didn't do anything wrong and they followed their potential new players wishs. (Again note that EG and Puma still haven't signed anything still.) 11. Dramallamas continue to frolic. 12. EG opens mouth and inserts foot re: what team liquid is for (while I agree partially with them this sure as hell wasn't the time). 13. Even more shit hits the fan as TL defends one of their own.
first of all the goodbye party was way before step 9, it was before step 6 from every indication. Also despite the fact that no contract was signed, at least coach lee and likely puma felt it was concrete enough to go forward with this.
I would say that the point at which eg should have contacted coach lee is after step 3 and before step 4, before laying out their offer.
I would say that it is not a realistic expectation to have. Feel free to do it in the business world, but if you want to hire someone from the competition, you do not go to their bosses and ask them for permission. Sometimes, rival companies are willing to pay the potential lawsuit that comes from breaching a contract when departing from the previous company.
If Puma was not even under a strict contact, you can be the nicest person in the world and inform everyone about your intentions, but that does not make doing the opposite (just simply seeking the player itself, obviously) anything bad.
Once again the teddy bears fight about why the bad man did a no-no ! As Ive said before they are all a little to blame but no biggy. No one did anything really bad no need to go into the depths of your imaginations with the what ifs, they should/shouldnt, why etc etc ... Dont forget this is the TL forum and Team liquid is a rival team and although they try to be pretty unbiased its hard for the players/ active team staff not to have a negative view on EG. Especially since they have been long time rivals !
On July 23 2011 03:36 Saechiis wrote: It's obvious TSL didn't want to get rid PuMa. It's obvious that signing TSL's top player without contacting the manager is sneaky and immoral. It's obvious that the possibility to cheaply sign one of the best players in the world was more important to EG than the, again, obvious backlash it would cause.
...I'm so glad the TL community actually reads and finds out what happened before jumping to conclusions.
Puma has not been signed with EG. There is nothing signed between Puma and EG. Puma is the one who requested that EG does not contact his coach.
Again here is to the best of my knowledge how everthing went down based off of the 2 translated interviews, AGs statements on WoC and Xeris comments about EGs recruitment at NASL.
Saying PuMa hasn't "officially" signed yet is as relevant to the discussion as the notion that EG "strictly" didn't do anything illegal. Integrity isn't measurable by paper rules.
Blaming PuMa is even funnier, seriously, EG is a professional organisation, they know damn well they have the moral obligation to create a smooth transition. Pretending they thought PuMa would just go tell his coach he'd be joining EG after having talked to them in a foreign tournament and think there'd be no hard feelings is hilarious. Don't know how you can pretend EG has no part in this.
So in other words you didn't actually read what I linked and you just want to show how angry you are?
Gotcha, don't care, either disagree with the facts I laid out at the link or ignore but don't throw baseless comments about me blaming Puma around.
Classy, claiming I didn't read the link, suggessting I'm spouting (irrational) anger and am either disagreeing or ignoring the "facts" as far as you "interpreted" them while taking the moral high ground by claiming you don't care and avoiding any direct response to my post ... all in one condensed ad-hominem package
I'll quote myself so I can sleep with a clean conscience: "Blaming PuMa is even funnier, seriously, EG is a professional organisation, they know damn well they have the moral obligation to create a smooth transition. "
Seems pretty clear that I'm blaming EG for lacking/ non-existant contact with the TSL management; referring to the claim that "Puma is the one who requested that EG does not contact his coach" , which is a silly excuse.
I have clearly been stating EG as the subject of my posts, so I don't know where you got the idea I was making "baseless comments" about you blaming PuMa.
On July 23 2011 04:29 Seicianto wrote: Some may or may not disagree with me, but I don't feel like it is TLO's place to really comment on this situation, as being on a rival team to EG, it just doesn't seem right to me. I think that people are being extremely harsh to EG having the opinion that they are doing wrong and acting without morals and so forth, however I am of the firm belief that this is the fault of Korean teams own Naivety. It strikes me that the teams in Korea have an attitude along the lines of, "we don't need to contract players, nobody would ever take our players (as I'm guessing Korean find it "immoral" to take from other Korean teams) and why would a Korean player ever want to or think of joining a foreign team cuz the GSL is so super awesome." Well they just shot themselves in the foot as I see it, if there are no contracts, why should a team talk to the coach first, EG did the decent thing and suggested talking to the TSL coach. Also, creating an opinion as a lot of people did just off of the TSL's coach is extremely single-minded, as I'm sure the TSL coach is frustrated and had an outburst of sorts. EG do not need to apologise for trying to do business, I feel Alex on WoC made some very good comments while trying to remain profession. Btw, I have no preference of team, in case you are wondering.
I think koreans are using the whole ''culture'' bit as a way to keep the world from playing on the same level as them. I mean no coach of any team likes to be bypassed and have their player bought from them, but it happens. The whole use of the ''culture",while its true koreans (aisians) in genral have a different culture when it comes to respect etc ... But its not as big as some would want us to beleive ... We (rest of the world) should just start saying it is a huge offence, in our culture for koreans to win all our tourneys, they should first ask other teams their permission before sending players. Of course they wouldnt - as the team managers wouldnt want them too ... the same aplies with this SMALL incident. He couldnt have bought Puma if he asked the manager.
On July 23 2011 04:29 Seicianto wrote: Some may or may not disagree with me, but I don't feel like it is TLO's place to really comment on this situation, as being on a rival team to EG, it just doesn't seem right to me. I think that people are being extremely harsh to EG having the opinion that they are doing wrong and acting without morals and so forth, however I am of the firm belief that this is the fault of Korean teams own Naivety. It strikes me that the teams in Korea have an attitude along the lines of, "we don't need to contract players, nobody would ever take our players (as I'm guessing Korean find it "immoral" to take from other Korean teams) and why would a Korean player ever want to or think of joining a foreign team cuz the GSL is so super awesome." Well they just shot themselves in the foot as I see it, if there are no contracts, why should a team talk to the coach first, EG did the decent thing and suggested talking to the TSL coach. Also, creating an opinion as a lot of people did just off of the TSL's coach is extremely single-minded, as I'm sure the TSL coach is frustrated and had an outburst of sorts. EG do not need to apologise for trying to do business, I feel Alex on WoC made some very good comments while trying to remain profession. Btw, I have no preference of team, in case you are wondering.
hes not speaking as a spokesperson as liquid. hes just the player and this is a public forum so he can say what he wants. I think he was especially upset about milkis getting ambushed on WoP. besides EG doesnt give a shit what other people think why shouldnt he make his opinion known?
personally, and i think i speak for a lot of people, i like it when pros speak their minds.
I agree on a level with you, you have a good point. Although he is still contracted to Team Liquid and every knows his affiliation with Team Liquid. In football (soccer), you wont get very often people from one team talking about something unprofessional on the business side of another rival team, as it would just start a slinging match that would last for existence. I do in a way feel sorry for Milkis, I don't think he really should have been on the show, I don't know how much he knows about business but he didn't seem too knowledgeable.
Xavi made a short comment about Fabregas and his possible transfer to Barcelona, and Wenger told him to shut up and stop being disrespectfull. He had to apologice next day, because he was being an asshole and disrespecting Arsenal.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
How hard can it be to make a short post about it? FXO does it, sixjax does it. Actually, EG are the only ones who don't. Saying its obscene to blame EG for not releasing a statement for 20(?!?!) hours and then attacking milkis for not trying to get EG's side of the story when he actually did try to get their side of the story, now that is unacceptable. Long terrible post with little logic.
AM i the only one that thinks 20 hours really isnt a long time? i remember when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, it still took like 36 hours before news of how bad theworst natural disaster in U.S. history came to my state. 20 hours to prepare a statement isnt long. especially if it's just to appease nerds on the internet
On July 23 2011 04:29 Seicianto wrote: Some may or may not disagree with me, but I don't feel like it is TLO's place to really comment on this situation, as being on a rival team to EG, it just doesn't seem right to me. I think that people are being extremely harsh to EG having the opinion that they are doing wrong and acting without morals and so forth, however I am of the firm belief that this is the fault of Korean teams own Naivety. It strikes me that the teams in Korea have an attitude along the lines of, "we don't need to contract players, nobody would ever take our players (as I'm guessing Korean find it "immoral" to take from other Korean teams) and why would a Korean player ever want to or think of joining a foreign team cuz the GSL is so super awesome." Well they just shot themselves in the foot as I see it, if there are no contracts, why should a team talk to the coach first, EG did the decent thing and suggested talking to the TSL coach. Also, creating an opinion as a lot of people did just off of the TSL's coach is extremely single-minded, as I'm sure the TSL coach is frustrated and had an outburst of sorts. EG do not need to apologise for trying to do business, I feel Alex on WoC made some very good comments while trying to remain profession. Btw, I have no preference of team, in case you are wondering.
hes not speaking as a spokesperson as liquid. hes just the player and this is a public forum so he can say what he wants. I think he was especially upset about milkis getting ambushed on WoP. besides EG doesnt give a shit what other people think why shouldnt he make his opinion known?
personally, and i think i speak for a lot of people, i like it when pros speak their minds.
I agree on a level with you, you have a good point. Although he is still contracted to Team Liquid and every knows his affiliation with Team Liquid. In football (soccer), you wont get very often people from one team talking about something unprofessional on the business side of another rival team, as it would just start a slinging match that would last for existence. I do in a way feel sorry for Milkis, I don't think he really should have been on the show, I don't know how much he knows about business but he didn't seem too knowledgeable.
this is starcraft, not soccer. just because you sign with a team doesnt mean you give up your entire life. sure some people, like kennigit, incontrol (maybe not as much incontrol) etc dont post what they think to save themselves all the drama but they could if they wanted.
Look at all the shit Idra pulls while as a member of EG. he always defends himself by saying that just him as a person and he never does it at a formal event while sponsoring EG.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
Why should they make a short statement when a larger medium can be used to make such a statement. In real sports there are press conferences that happen a day or two later, do we bitch about how late the information comes or do we accept that it is the norm to use a larger platform to make an official statement? Would you be using the Blog section on TL to make your statement when you could be making a more public one?
I think, and of course this is my opinion as I do not speak for others, that more obscene than any move EG makes is the lack of accountability in esports journalism. Whether someone is a paid journalist or a journalist by profession, if they put the article out than they are accountable for journalistic integrity. In the past, and currently in sports, if someone gets a leak in news they do not immediately write a news post themself with no legitimate statements from all sides. News leakers call up someone they know who is a TRUE JOURNALIST, takes in the information and gathers further comments required before posting out a large news article. If this is the standard in real sports then why can we not hold journalists to the same standard in esports?
This is not even going into the fact that we have heard one side of the story which led to a MASSIVE hate bandwagon before anyone allows themself to hear the other side. Even to you TLO, EG's statement is seen as secondary, am I right? What if you had heard EG's side first and then the TSL commentary 24 hours later after a 150 page thread is created praising EG and blasting TSL?
What if you had read this statement first?
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote: Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
I respect your opinion in the OP but I find trouble agreeing with you when constantly, journalistic integrity is broken. It is a standard that we have had in the past in esports, and have had in real sports, and something we have lost with the growth of Team Liquid's community driven news.
My opinion? If you get news and don't want to be held accountable for the news post made, then forward the news you gather to a journalist who IS willing to gather further comments and IS willing to be held accountable for their journalistic integrity. It is something I, and many people have done in the past and should NOT be left out on Team Liquid.
How hard can it be to make a short post about it? FXO does it, sixjax does it. Actually, EG are the only ones who don't. Saying its obscene to blame EG for not releasing a statement for 20(?!?!) hours and then attacking milkis for not trying to get EG's side of the story when he actually did try to get their side of the story, now that is unacceptable. Long terrible post with little logic.
AM i the only one that thinks 20 hours really isnt a long time? i remember when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, it still took like 36 hours before news of how bad theworst natural disaster in U.S. history came to my state. 20 hours to prepare a statement isnt long. especially if it's just to appease nerds on the internet
People affiliated with eg were tweeting about it, but no response came....
On July 23 2011 04:29 Seicianto wrote: Some may or may not disagree with me, but I don't feel like it is TLO's place to really comment on this situation, as being on a rival team to EG, it just doesn't seem right to me. I think that people are being extremely harsh to EG having the opinion that they are doing wrong and acting without morals and so forth, however I am of the firm belief that this is the fault of Korean teams own Naivety. It strikes me that the teams in Korea have an attitude along the lines of, "we don't need to contract players, nobody would ever take our players (as I'm guessing Korean find it "immoral" to take from other Korean teams) and why would a Korean player ever want to or think of joining a foreign team cuz the GSL is so super awesome." Well they just shot themselves in the foot as I see it, if there are no contracts, why should a team talk to the coach first, EG did the decent thing and suggested talking to the TSL coach. Also, creating an opinion as a lot of people did just off of the TSL's coach is extremely single-minded, as I'm sure the TSL coach is frustrated and had an outburst of sorts. EG do not need to apologise for trying to do business, I feel Alex on WoC made some very good comments while trying to remain profession. Btw, I have no preference of team, in case you are wondering.
hes not speaking as a spokesperson as liquid. hes just the player and this is a public forum so he can say what he wants. I think he was especially upset about milkis getting ambushed on WoP. besides EG doesnt give a shit what other people think why shouldnt he make his opinion known?
personally, and i think i speak for a lot of people, i like it when pros speak their minds.
I agree on a level with you, you have a good point. Although he is still contracted to Team Liquid and every knows his affiliation with Team Liquid. In football (soccer), you wont get very often people from one team talking about something unprofessional on the business side of another rival team, as it would just start a slinging match that would last for existence. I do in a way feel sorry for Milkis, I don't think he really should have been on the show, I don't know how much he knows about business but he didn't seem too knowledgeable.
Xavi made a short comment about Fabregas and his possible transfer to Barcelona, and Wenger told him to shut up and stop being disrespectfull. He had to apologice next day, because he was being an asshole and disrespecting Arsenal.
True but that wasn't his purpose, he didn't say, "I can see why Fabregas wants to leave Arsenal, what a rubbish and immoral, they are just evil." Did he? Anyone and everyone knows how badly Fabregas wants to re-join Barca.
I`m glad that TLO is indicating that TL would not have handled this situation the same way. While EG might not have done anything wrong in their own mind, their behaviour has led to a very negative view of their brand in Korea. This could be very damaging to their future business plans as many potential fans of an up and coming player like Puma will be put off.
The strange thing about it is that they could have addressed the issue so much sooner by simply sending an apology to manager Lee indicating that there was a misunderstanding and that they had not thought to contact him directly due to Puma`s preference. Then they could indicate that they would be willing to discuss the issue further and provide a Korean press release etc.
Instead, they responded by coming on a NA program, LO3, and defending their position there. Silly really. How does that help other than to somewhat decrease the response by NA and EU fans... who were not the ones that responded as negatively.
As I have said before, we should all love korea, because without korea starcraft is just a hobby.
I don't think that's true at all, Koreans are the best at the game, but the success of MLG, Dreamhack and even NASL has proven that the foreigner audience is here, and if the audience is there, sponsors will come, and if teams can get financial support, they can create environments to foster talented players.
If Korea really closes off to Foreign events they aren't doing themselves any favours IMO.
If it wasn't for Korea, notably in brood war. The sponsors would not pay so much for sponsorship. Because the vision wouldn't be there.
Its not a play on "Well without korea MLG wouldn't exist".. Facts are it would be behind by a few years and not nearly as successful. Koreans have done the ground work for the industry. We should respect that. They also do it best.
Not trying to call you out but I don't think you were around during Brood War to make that statement. The success of Brood War in Korea did not help sponsorship outside of Korea which refutes your claim.
The Koreans have been very insular for forever and they're very nationalistic, prideful people. You're lying if you say that the reaction of Coach Lee to Puma leaving for a foreign team didn't have undertones of xenophobia. He even remarked about Clide's twitter page having foreign fans and saying that disturbed him. I find those comments very naive and not functional in a global sport.
Let me create a hypothetical situation. Say the game of football (soccer) was just created. Let's go on to say in this story that Brasil has a thriving league with the best players and the competitive scene outside Brasil is non-existent. Could Brasil remain insular and still be self-relient? Absolutely. But would there be a La Liga in Spain, Premiere League in England, or Serie A in Italy? Would soccer be in the Olympics? Would children across the planet be celebrating it?
Yes, Brood War was successful in Korea, but it's not debatable that the Korean Brood War scene is marked with insularity (Note: allowing foreigner to come to their league is not a counterpoint to this claim). Brood War could have been globally celebrated.
Top brood war pros make six figures. In a global sport like basketball even C level professionals in Turkey make more than Brood War pros. You want to grow the game globally. It's uplifting and beneficial.
tl;dr I really hope Korea doesn't shut down and become insular. That would be pretty sad. This game is already at the point where it can potentially be selling out stadiums. NBA and UFC didn't get to that point until more than a decade after their creation. Any attempt to curb the growth of a legitimate sport is pretty depressing.
On July 23 2011 04:29 Seicianto wrote: Some may or may not disagree with me, but I don't feel like it is TLO's place to really comment on this situation, as being on a rival team to EG, it just doesn't seem right to me. I think that people are being extremely harsh to EG having the opinion that they are doing wrong and acting without morals and so forth, however I am of the firm belief that this is the fault of Korean teams own Naivety. It strikes me that the teams in Korea have an attitude along the lines of, "we don't need to contract players, nobody would ever take our players (as I'm guessing Korean find it "immoral" to take from other Korean teams) and why would a Korean player ever want to or think of joining a foreign team cuz the GSL is so super awesome." Well they just shot themselves in the foot as I see it, if there are no contracts, why should a team talk to the coach first, EG did the decent thing and suggested talking to the TSL coach. Also, creating an opinion as a lot of people did just off of the TSL's coach is extremely single-minded, as I'm sure the TSL coach is frustrated and had an outburst of sorts. EG do not need to apologise for trying to do business, I feel Alex on WoC made some very good comments while trying to remain profession. Btw, I have no preference of team, in case you are wondering.
hes not speaking as a spokesperson as liquid. hes just the player and this is a public forum so he can say what he wants. I think he was especially upset about milkis getting ambushed on WoP. besides EG doesnt give a shit what other people think why shouldnt he make his opinion known?
personally, and i think i speak for a lot of people, i like it when pros speak their minds.
I agree on a level with you, you have a good point. Although he is still contracted to Team Liquid and every knows his affiliation with Team Liquid. In football (soccer), you wont get very often people from one team talking about something unprofessional on the business side of another rival team, as it would just start a slinging match that would last for existence. I do in a way feel sorry for Milkis, I don't think he really should have been on the show, I don't know how much he knows about business but he didn't seem too knowledgeable.
Xavi made a short comment about Fabregas and his possible transfer to Barcelona, and Wenger told him to shut up and stop being disrespectfull. He had to apologice next day, because he was being an asshole and disrespecting Arsenal.
True but that wasn't his purpose, he didn't say, "I can see why Fabregas wants to leave Arsenal, what a rubbish and immoral, they are just evil." Did he? Anyone and everyone knows how badly Fabregas wants to re-join Barca.
By "Barcelona Standards" Fabregas is a player that was grown by Arsenal, and for a couple days, a few Barcelona players made comments, then Wenger told them all to shut up and they did. Point is. Players shouldnt talk in management matters.
On July 23 2011 04:29 Seicianto wrote: Some may or may not disagree with me, but I don't feel like it is TLO's place to really comment on this situation, as being on a rival team to EG, it just doesn't seem right to me. I think that people are being extremely harsh to EG having the opinion that they are doing wrong and acting without morals and so forth, however I am of the firm belief that this is the fault of Korean teams own Naivety. It strikes me that the teams in Korea have an attitude along the lines of, "we don't need to contract players, nobody would ever take our players (as I'm guessing Korean find it "immoral" to take from other Korean teams) and why would a Korean player ever want to or think of joining a foreign team cuz the GSL is so super awesome." Well they just shot themselves in the foot as I see it, if there are no contracts, why should a team talk to the coach first, EG did the decent thing and suggested talking to the TSL coach. Also, creating an opinion as a lot of people did just off of the TSL's coach is extremely single-minded, as I'm sure the TSL coach is frustrated and had an outburst of sorts. EG do not need to apologise for trying to do business, I feel Alex on WoC made some very good comments while trying to remain profession. Btw, I have no preference of team, in case you are wondering.
hes not speaking as a spokesperson as liquid. hes just the player and this is a public forum so he can say what he wants. I think he was especially upset about milkis getting ambushed on WoP. besides EG doesnt give a shit what other people think why shouldnt he make his opinion known?
personally, and i think i speak for a lot of people, i like it when pros speak their minds.
I agree on a level with you, you have a good point. Although he is still contracted to Team Liquid and every knows his affiliation with Team Liquid. In football (soccer), you wont get very often people from one team talking about something unprofessional on the business side of another rival team, as it would just start a slinging match that would last for existence. I do in a way feel sorry for Milkis, I don't think he really should have been on the show, I don't know how much he knows about business but he didn't seem too knowledgeable.
Xavi made a short comment about Fabregas and his possible transfer to Barcelona, and Wenger told him to shut up and stop being disrespectfull. He had to apologice next day, because he was being an asshole and disrespecting Arsenal.
True but that wasn't his purpose, he didn't say, "I can see why Fabregas wants to leave Arsenal, what a rubbish and immoral, they are just evil." Did he? Anyone and everyone knows how badly Fabregas wants to re-join Barca.
By "Barcelona Standards" Fabregas is a player that was grown by Arsenal, and for a couple days, a few Barcelona players made comments, then Wenger told them all to shut up and they did. Point is. Players shouldnt talk in management matters.
and maybe managers shouldn't attack community volunteers who did nothing wrong?
On July 22 2011 23:06 zere wrote: Milkis is first and foremost a fan, a community member, a contributer to ESPORTS. He is not a "journalist", he is also not "just a translator". Contrary to some other entities in our scene, he doesn't do things only for the money and the business, but because he wants to contribute and because he thinks people might find the things that he does (=mostly translating) useful. Some imbeciles might not realize this, some shady people try to turn attention and blame on our good contributor here for their business sakes. Luckily, the StarCraft scene is quite bright and will not be blinded by these shades of distraction. These parties will get what they deserve, sooner or later. Don't turn on Milkis for no reason, you're going down.
I think this whole affair shows quite the opposite and that the starcraft scene is rather blind to how business works. I think its unfair to blame milkis i would agree with that but the EG director was making a more broad point.
Korea doesnt have sole rights on SC2, why should the international scene adhere to what the korean culture thinks is right. Korea should adapt to the rest of the world not the other way around if they are too stupid to contract their best player they deserve to lose him.
I honestly am suprised and dissapointed at how much hate EG is getting for making a perfectly reasonable and fair business transaction. Im sorry if people think the world is honourable and all sunshine and rainbows but its not. So congratulations EG on picking up an awesome player and i hope to see him play in more foreign events .
Who made EG (or you) the voice of "the international scene". Because an american clan acts that way doesn't mean that every clan in the US or in any other country is gonna act the same way. If you go and buy a korean player in korea, it's no a huge deal to get a little info about their business practices/mentality and so on so you make sure the deal goes smoothly. Why should everyone adapt to the "western" way of doing things (take the money and run)? I'm not blind to how business works, no more than you are I'm sure, but I'm sure EG could have made that deal much more smoothly and respectfully of the korean way of doing business (and you can't blame TSL for that since they didn't know about it till the last minute....you could blame Puma but he's obviously too young to have a business background, he probably made a lot of mistakes there too).
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: Oh man the best part about the whole EG-Puma debate was Milkis (a neutral party, translator) being attacked by the EG's Executive director on Weapon of Choice for not contacting EG about their stance, while all he did was translate (and provide an opinion on his own twitter). The hilarity in this situation is AMAZING. EG did not contact coach lee, EG did not try to explain anything, EG did literally nothing. So a translator should be responsible for EG public relations. Fail...
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves." And that was an official topic on their own tournament...
Hypocrits.
OMG i completely forget about that lol.
<3 TLO <3 Tyler. Thanks so much for sharing your views on the hole ...situation. Glad to see TeamLiquid has such great characters (of course i already knew that ).
Also want to say that it's pretty damn cool that a kid from Korea who wasn't making a salary before is going to get a big contract from a team halfway around the world to play the game he loves. That's fucking awesome. Hurray for Puma. I hope plenty of kids see that and continue playing the game they love bcause there's a growing market. #e-sports win.
On July 23 2011 04:29 Seicianto wrote: Some may or may not disagree with me, but I don't feel like it is TLO's place to really comment on this situation, as being on a rival team to EG, it just doesn't seem right to me. I think that people are being extremely harsh to EG having the opinion that they are doing wrong and acting without morals and so forth, however I am of the firm belief that this is the fault of Korean teams own Naivety. It strikes me that the teams in Korea have an attitude along the lines of, "we don't need to contract players, nobody would ever take our players (as I'm guessing Korean find it "immoral" to take from other Korean teams) and why would a Korean player ever want to or think of joining a foreign team cuz the GSL is so super awesome." Well they just shot themselves in the foot as I see it, if there are no contracts, why should a team talk to the coach first, EG did the decent thing and suggested talking to the TSL coach. Also, creating an opinion as a lot of people did just off of the TSL's coach is extremely single-minded, as I'm sure the TSL coach is frustrated and had an outburst of sorts. EG do not need to apologise for trying to do business, I feel Alex on WoC made some very good comments while trying to remain profession. Btw, I have no preference of team, in case you are wondering.
hes not speaking as a spokesperson as liquid. hes just the player and this is a public forum so he can say what he wants. I think he was especially upset about milkis getting ambushed on WoP. besides EG doesnt give a shit what other people think why shouldnt he make his opinion known?
personally, and i think i speak for a lot of people, i like it when pros speak their minds.
I agree on a level with you, you have a good point. Although he is still contracted to Team Liquid and every knows his affiliation with Team Liquid. In football (soccer), you wont get very often people from one team talking about something unprofessional on the business side of another rival team, as it would just start a slinging match that would last for existence. I do in a way feel sorry for Milkis, I don't think he really should have been on the show, I don't know how much he knows about business but he didn't seem too knowledgeable.
Xavi made a short comment about Fabregas and his possible transfer to Barcelona, and Wenger told him to shut up and stop being disrespectfull. He had to apologice next day, because he was being an asshole and disrespecting Arsenal.
True but that wasn't his purpose, he didn't say, "I can see why Fabregas wants to leave Arsenal, what a rubbish and immoral, they are just evil." Did he? Anyone and everyone knows how badly Fabregas wants to re-join Barca.
By "Barcelona Standards" Fabregas is a player that was grown by Arsenal, and for a couple days, a few Barcelona players made comments, then Wenger told them all to shut up and they did. Point is. Players shouldnt talk in management matters.
and maybe managers shouldn't attack community volunteers who did nothing wrong?
I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on"
Well without all the crying drama between two organizations, Puma is getting a chance to make a lot of money doing something we all love and I think that is an important side of the situation we ignore. Puma wasn't contracted, he wasn't "owned" don't forget that. We've seen worse things in the business world go down in comparison to making a head coach sad.
I think only here on Team Liquid you'd see people hate on organizations and players that actually wants the scene to grow, and players accepting offers to give them better living conditions, and more exposure.
I find this sad, people should embrace the fact that Puma got sponsored and EG for actually giving Puma a chance to travel the world and attend the major SC2 events outside of Korea.
On July 23 2011 05:22 integrity wrote: I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on"
then how do you feel about the executive director of a team bashing the shit out of a translator whos not even part of a team/organization?
I'm going to post this here as well. The issue was clearly not a legal one but one of ethics and morals
The thing that got me was when djWheat asked AG on WOC whether in retrospect, would he have contacted the coach directly? He said no.
What I don't understand is why he wouldn't knowing that it is what the coach would've wanted, knowing that doing so would've avoided most of this drama at basically the cost of a couple minutes of his time. For a guy that has preached about EG spending years building infrastructure for e-sports, building ties with the community, you wouldn't even do this? I know "the plan" was to have Puma talk to the coach but when reaching out to players in a unfamiliar environment, at least try to show you care.
On July 23 2011 05:22 integrity wrote: I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on"
then how do you feel about the executive director of a team bashing the shit out of a translator whos not even part of a team/organization?
i came here not to make a comment on how i feel about the whole debacle but to tell TLO that I personally, as a huge fan of TLO have lost a little respect for him for "team bashing" on matters that truly don't concern him.
On July 23 2011 05:22 integrity wrote: I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on"
then how do you feel about the executive director of a team bashing the shit out of a translator whos not even part of a team/organization?
i came here not to make a comment on how i feel about the whole debacle but to tell TLO that i personally as a huge fan of TLO that i lost a little respect for him for "team bashing" on matters that truly don't concern him.
Sorry but anything which can damage the scene as a whole concerns him. And publicly bashing the volunteers this scene is built upon when they did not do anything wrong is something which concerns him a player as well as a member of this community.
EG plays hardball on contracts saying that it's the fault of the koreans if they don't have contracts - okay fine. But then at the same time they demand a fluffy utopian media world where everyone does what they want? And if people don't act like EG wants, they call them unprofessional and appeal to their responsibility. Sorry but neither TSL nor Playxp nor Milkis signed any contract with EG to not talk about factual correct developments. EG can't be all that hard cold corporate like on the contract side and then demand kindergarten rules on the media side, that's not how it works.
If EG does not want bad press they should sign contracts guaranteeing that no major news site will post stories about them before they got EGs side of things. And they better pay a compensation. And they are better be prepared that there will be a public uproar about that because that is not how journalism works.
On July 23 2011 03:36 Saechiis wrote: It's obvious TSL didn't want to get rid PuMa. It's obvious that signing TSL's top player without contacting the manager is sneaky and immoral. It's obvious that the possibility to cheaply sign one of the best players in the world was more important to EG than the, again, obvious backlash it would cause.
...I'm so glad the TL community actually reads and finds out what happened before jumping to conclusions.
Puma has not been signed with EG. There is nothing signed between Puma and EG. Puma is the one who requested that EG does not contact his coach.
Again here is to the best of my knowledge how everthing went down based off of the 2 translated interviews, AGs statements on WoC and Xeris comments about EGs recruitment at NASL.
Stop twisting the facts with your own bias. Puma didn't request anything. AG and Puma talked and decided it would be best for Puma to talk to the coach himself.
It's interesting that AG brings up the fact that he has talked to the management of 3 different korean teams in the past but evidently it did not work out. So now he mixes it up and talks to the player directly and voila. From my perspective it's quite obvious he wanted to avoid talking to the coach because he knew it would upset him (obviously no one wants to lose their best player).
On July 23 2011 03:36 Saechiis wrote: It's obvious TSL didn't want to get rid PuMa. It's obvious that signing TSL's top player without contacting the manager is sneaky and immoral. It's obvious that the possibility to cheaply sign one of the best players in the world was more important to EG than the, again, obvious backlash it would cause.
...I'm so glad the TL community actually reads and finds out what happened before jumping to conclusions.
Puma has not been signed with EG. There is nothing signed between Puma and EG. Puma is the one who requested that EG does not contact his coach.
Again here is to the best of my knowledge how everthing went down based off of the 2 translated interviews, AGs statements on WoC and Xeris comments about EGs recruitment at NASL.
Stop twisting the facts with your own bias. Puma didn't request anything. AG and Puma talked and decided it would be best for Puma to talk to the coach himself.
i do understand why it is so wrong if the player decided that it would be best if he himself talked to the coach? it was pumas wishes....would it then be immoral if AG went behind puma back and talk to the coach anyway?
Nice to see TLO's opinion on this. IMO the way EG handled acquiring PuMa was just a bad move overall, because people who were fans of EG stayed fans, while, what I gleaned from various posts, many people like me who felt kind of indifferent to EG previously now feels rather negatively about them. It doesn't matter how much Alex tries to justify things - the damage is done in terms of publicity.
On July 23 2011 05:28 Pr0spect wrote: I think only here on Team Liquid you'd see people hate on organizations and players that actually wants the scene to grow, and players accepting offers to give them better living conditions, and more exposure.
I find this sad, people should embrace the fact that Puma got sponsored and EG for actually giving Puma a chance to travel the world and attend the major SC2 events outside of Korea.
I'm 100% sure everyone here would be happy with Puma joining a "foreigner" team such as EG, Root, Teamliquid, etc.
If it was under better conditions.
You're really missing the point here if you think that's all there is to it.
-
Anyway, I'm not as informed on the issue as some others, but even if Milkis did something wrong (which seems like bullshit, he's just translating, and he's allowed to speculate even if he wasn't just translating), he has my support for all the thing's he's done for TL (english -> english). TLO hasn't been one to talk shit without any reason to, and the same goes for Tyler.
From what I've read of the issue in several different threads, it just seems like something legal, but underhanded, and a little bit dirty. You don't build a brand that people want to cheer for this way.
On July 23 2011 05:30 JoeSchmoe wrote: The thing that got me was when djWheat asked AG on WOC whether in retrospect, would he have contacted the coach directly? He said no.
What I don't understand is why he wouldn't knowing that it is what the coach would've wanted, knowing that doing so would've avoided most of this drama at basically the cost of a couple minutes of his time.
Here's why:
Multi-page drama threads on Teamliquid are meaningless whining, and it's not worth going out of your way to prevent them.
On July 23 2011 05:28 Pr0spect wrote: I think only here on Team Liquid you'd see people hate on organizations and players that actually wants the scene to grow, and players accepting offers to give them better living conditions, and more exposure.
I find this sad, people should embrace the fact that Puma got sponsored and EG for actually giving Puma a chance to travel the world and attend the major SC2 events outside of Korea.
Of course. Because Korean teams don't want the scene to grow. They're in it for campfires and marshmallows. Can't believe the amount of people that can't even stick to the issue here : I don't think anyone argues about any player having to accept an interesting financial offer but that is not the subject at all, the whole discussion is about how things were handled and it fucking screams : poorly. Yeah it's great for Puma. Yeah it's great for EG. What about TSL, players, coach or what not ? Well they dedicate their life to Starcraft but they don't drop enough cash on the table so screw them, no cash = no respect. Plus their posts are written in korean, that's so again the growth of e-sports.
On July 23 2011 05:30 JoeSchmoe wrote: The thing that got me was when djWheat asked AG on WOC whether in retrospect, would he have contacted the coach directly? He said no.
What I don't understand is why he wouldn't knowing that it is what the coach would've wanted, knowing that doing so would've avoided most of this drama at basically the cost of a couple minutes of his time.
Here's why:
Multi-page drama threads on Teamliquid are meaningless whining, and it's not worth going out of your way to prevent them.
You're welcome.
I'd take the thing one step further, they're so naturally good at creating drama that I sometimes believe so many silly statements and childish behaviour cannot be entirely hazardous and is part of a superbly elaborated PR machine. But I might just be paranoid. I love them (well, not all of them, but some), it's just sometimes they're so tactless it's saddening (and that might be why I prefer to believe in my PR conspiracy theory and give them the benefit of the doubt). Fool me once, etc.
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
stopped reading there. 2:30 AM, "AMERICAN time." while everyone on TL was live streaming GSTL. just solidifies the fact that EG has no respect for the Korean scene. Scoots was awake and made a random tweet. AG was awake and reading the thread in question but chose not to post a single clarifying content until it blew up. Incontrol tweeted an announcement of an "important" announcement on his twitter and trolled everyone awaiting a real response with a useless tweet.
and then EG goes on the EG show and says everyone but them is acting unprofessionally?
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
stopped reading there. 2:30 AM, "AMERICAN time." while everyone on TL was live streaming GSTL. just solidifies the fact that EG has no respect for the Korean scene.
Wait not watching the GSL live at 2:30am means you don't respect the Korean scene?
Maybe IT's just me - but why is EG the bad guy again? Because they approach players? Like every other team does? I'm sure HuK talked to TL before leaving millenium so TL can't be on a high horse about this.
Is it because they didn't release a statement? You know the ones that got them in trouble not ever 6 months ago by the same guys who are talking trash now?
Is it because they can afford to provide for their players and travel them around the world - and SALARY them?
And why are people feeling bad for TSL - you know the team that was founded when coach lee stole players from OGS - when they forced a player out, when he had not signed with EG, but simply told coach lee that he had been contacted by them.
I don't get why EG is the bad guy here. They wanted to help a player out with sponsorship and instead gets him kicked out of his house and meal ticket because they wanted to have him think it over with his coach instead of just signing him then and there like some other teams would.
ALSO: Am i the only one who gets pissed when someone says that their twitter is personal and only reflects their opinions when just minutes before they were saying that Sirscoots' twitter was the official word of team EG. You can't have it both ways man.
On July 23 2011 03:36 Saechiis wrote: It's obvious TSL didn't want to get rid PuMa. It's obvious that signing TSL's top player without contacting the manager is sneaky and immoral. It's obvious that the possibility to cheaply sign one of the best players in the world was more important to EG than the, again, obvious backlash it would cause.
...I'm so glad the TL community actually reads and finds out what happened before jumping to conclusions.
Puma has not been signed with EG. There is nothing signed between Puma and EG. Puma is the one who requested that EG does not contact his coach.
Again here is to the best of my knowledge how everthing went down based off of the 2 translated interviews, AGs statements on WoC and Xeris comments about EGs recruitment at NASL.
Stop twisting the facts with your own bias. Puma didn't request anything. AG and Puma talked and decided it would be best for Puma to talk to the coach himself.
i do understand why it is so wrong if the player decided that it would be best if he himself talked to the coach? it was pumas wishes....would it then be immoral if AG went behind puma back and talk to the coach anyway?
what are you even talking about? why would AG need to talk to the coach behind Puma's back?
When my 10 year old sister tells me she'll walk back home from her night class do I let her? Obviously not I go pick her up anyways. Does that mean I'm disrespecting her? No I care about her. Puma is a player, he's 19, playing Starcraft is his job. AG is responsible for management and communicating from other teams. For him to imply that Puma was somehow responsible for the miscommunication and ensuing fallout between him and the coach saying that "oh i didn't know, puma said it went well" is complete bullshit. It was never his responsibility in the first place, even if Puma said he would talk to the coach. AG knew the coach would obviously be upset to lose their star player (this point is not even up to debate) and conveniently used Puma to circumvent contacting the coach directly himself.
What I can't stand is how he kept dragging Puma down with him saying "he said he would do ___", "he said it went ___", and how they both agreed on a plan when the one pulling the strings was AG all along
On July 23 2011 05:22 integrity wrote: I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on"
He can express his opinions just like anyone else. And besides, it's not even that extreme. He' just disspointed in the way this whole thing was handled. I htink a lot of people are.
On July 23 2011 03:36 Saechiis wrote: It's obvious TSL didn't want to get rid PuMa. It's obvious that signing TSL's top player without contacting the manager is sneaky and immoral. It's obvious that the possibility to cheaply sign one of the best players in the world was more important to EG than the, again, obvious backlash it would cause.
...I'm so glad the TL community actually reads and finds out what happened before jumping to conclusions.
Puma has not been signed with EG. There is nothing signed between Puma and EG. Puma is the one who requested that EG does not contact his coach.
Again here is to the best of my knowledge how everthing went down based off of the 2 translated interviews, AGs statements on WoC and Xeris comments about EGs recruitment at NASL.
Stop twisting the facts with your own bias. Puma didn't request anything. AG and Puma talked and decided it would be best for Puma to talk to the coach himself.
i do understand why it is so wrong if the player decided that it would be best if he himself talked to the coach? it was pumas wishes....would it then be immoral if AG went behind puma back and talk to the coach anyway?
what are you even talking about? why would AG need to talk to the coach behind Puma's back?
When my 10 year old sister tells me she'll walk back home from her night class do I let her? Obviously not I go pick her up anyways. Puma is a player, he's 19, playing Starcraft is his job. AG is responsible for management and communicating from other teams. For him to imply that Puma was somehow responsible for the miscommunication and ensuing fallout between him and the coach saying that "oh i didn't know, puma said it went well" is complete bullshit. It was never his responsibility in the first place, even if Puma said he would talk to the coach. AG knew the coach would obviously be upset to lose their star player (this point is not even up to debate) and conveniently used Puma to circumvent contacting the coach directly himself.
What I can't stand is how he kept dragging Puma down with him saying "he said he would do ___", "he said it went ___", and how they both agreed on a plan when the puppeteer was AG's all along.
puma is an adult not a child. if puma said he felt more comfortable to bring this topic to his team coach(which he is not bound legally) that is his decision. there is no reason to fault EG for that....(imo)
I'm not too surprised to see TL players taking a stance against EG on this, I can even sympathise with defending Milkis in regards to Alex's comments about journalism. I do think that if you look at that question and apply it more widely it is a valid point. How many of the recent SC2 dramas have kicked off because of someone posting a half cocked story with minimal actual information. Whether that is Milkis OP_IS_MASTERS_FYI or anyone else.
On the surface this particular situation looks no different to Rain leaving, the only distinction perhaps is that Rain didn't mention to his coach who had shown interest (guessing here) and Puma did. Coach Lee has said that when Rain was signed he wasn't part of TSL, well Puma isn't signed and isn't part of TSL so this drama really is totally unnecessary.
It's nice to hear other players opinions, but I can't help feeling that a lot of the comments being made have more to do with existing feelings towards EG management than recent events. Defend Milkis, sure, the issue of whether he is translator or journalist/reporter is a grey area and it becomes a grey area when it gets linked to by the poster as 'Breaking news' and maintained as an ongoing story.
To be honest i think when a player says "let me talk to my manager before you do." You as an interest have to accept the players decision. You have to because it might be the best way to do it. You also dont know the player and the coaches relationship. Plus its a betrayal in trust if you agree that they will talk to the coach first and then do it yourself, something that cant happen when starting a new business relationship
On July 23 2011 05:22 integrity wrote: I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on"
He can express his opinions just like anyone else. And besides, it's not even that extreme. He' just disspointed in the way this whole thing was handled. I htink a lot of people are.
If he was only disappointed in the situation, why did he call EG evil, and not geniuses. I'm pretty sure someone could sue him and win (not that I think he should be sued).
On July 22 2011 21:18 Zlasher wrote: I don't believe that the basis that EG is truly evil should be made off of a news leak that followed a supposedly good conversation between Puma and his Coach. Especially since the news post was not made by EG themselves, on a player that is not yet signed.
Also, blaming EG for not making a statement between the hours of 2:30 AM and 4 PM is obscene. Unlike Coach Lee or Europeans, that is not the proper time period for a statement that is to be made by an organization, not by SirScoots via twitter.
stopped reading there. 2:30 AM, "AMERICAN time." while everyone on TL was live streaming GSTL. just solidifies the fact that EG has no respect for the Korean scene.
Wait not watching the GSL live at 2:30am means you don't respect the Korean scene?
Seriously?
what? how did you even draw that conclusion from my post? the point was that EG didn't need to construct some well-written full PR statement with every detail. Scoots and Incontrol were awake and aware of the thread blowing up, but they chose to troll twitter and roll their eyes rather than make any sort of effort to clarify the situation. this post from earlier in this thread shows how a simple post prevents crap from blowing up like it did in the PuMa/EG/TSL thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=246495¤tpage=4#74
puma did not have a contract and eg talked to him about signing him on the team. Easy as pie. I don't agree with TLO saying EG are evil, they are just a team like any other. Coach lee is upset on his managerial skills, not on EG.
it's weird because i thought he was a really cool guy by watching hyung joon becomes a pro gamer
And why are people feeling bad for TSL - you know the team that was founded when coach lee stole players from OGS - when they forced a player out, when he had not signed with EG, but simply told coach lee that he had been contacted by them.
Didn't know about that part but still, 2 wrongs make a right ?
ALSO: Am i the only one who gets pissed when someone says that their twitter is personal and only reflects their opinions when just minutes before they were saying that Sirscoots' twitter was the official word of team EG. You can't have it both ways man.
Why ? Sirscoots is the voice of EG (at least to me, that's the only thing I know about him - and I am probably not the only one) while milkies is the voice of...milkies (same comment).
To take another parallel, when incontrol was mod on TL , if some e-drama was taking place in between TL and EG and inc tweeted about it, his opinion would always be the one defending EG - and that's how it should be, it's his job - whereas if another drama was taking place between TL and xxxx, he'd always defend TL if he thought it was right - that's his opinion. You can have it both ways, people have multiple jobs/roles/faces. If milkies was to TL what Nazgul is, then I guess the situation would be different, but as far as I know he isn't (I might be misinformed, I actually dont know if he's a free lance team member or what not, but if he is the voice of TL, then I am wrong, just let me know about it).
I'm sure there's EG haters out there but don't reduce any criticism to that. If they did sthg some us judge wrong, we're entitled to discuss it (and if we don't have all the info to have a proper judgment, well, it's up to them to remedy to this....until then, it seems few mistakes were made there, why not discuss about them ?)
On July 23 2011 05:22 integrity wrote: I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on"
He can express his opinions just like anyone else. And besides, it's not even that extreme. He' just disspointed in the way this whole thing was handled. I htink a lot of people are.
i have no problem with him expressing his opinion. but as a player i would have expected "team bashing" was beneath him
and as a fan...i thought it was necessary that i let him know
On July 23 2011 05:22 integrity wrote: I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on"
He can express his opinions just like anyone else. And besides, it's not even that extreme. He' just disspointed in the way this whole thing was handled. I htink a lot of people are.
If he was only disappointed in the situation, why did he call EG evil, and not geniuses. I'm pretty sure someone could sue him and win (not that I think he should be sued).
I am of the idea that EG management has to be very angry with TL already for those comments, that only go on top of Tyler's repeated bashing of anything EG does.
On July 23 2011 05:22 integrity wrote: I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on"
He can express his opinions just like anyone else. And besides, it's not even that extreme. He' just disspointed in the way this whole thing was handled. I htink a lot of people are.
If he was only disappointed in the situation, why did he call EG evil, and not geniuses. I'm pretty sure someone could sue him and win (not that I think he should be sued).
I am of the idea that EG management has to be very angry with TL already for those comments, that only go on top of Tyler's repeated bashing of anything EG does.
Well its like TLO said. If they want to play the bad guy then they better be ready to accept the criticism...
And why are people feeling bad for TSL - you know the team that was founded when coach lee stole players from OGS - when they forced a player out, when he had not signed with EG, but simply told coach lee that he had been contacted by them.
Didn't know about that part but still, 2 wrongs make a right ?
No, but the point is TSL isn't exactly a bastion of freedom and ethics that everyone thinks they are. I feel no love towards them because of how they have treated their own countrymen in the past.
ALSO: Am i the only one who gets pissed when someone says that their twitter is personal and only reflects their opinions when just minutes before they were saying that Sirscoots' twitter was the official word of team EG. You can't have it both ways man.
Why ? Sirscoots is the voice of EG (at least to me, that's the only thing I know about him - and I am probably not the only one) while milkies is the voice of...milkies (same comment).
To take another parallel, when incontrol was mod on TL , if some e-drama was taking place in between TL and EG and inc tweeted about it, his opinion would always be the one defending EG - and that's how it should be, it's his job - whereas if another drama was taking place between TL and xxxx, he'd always defend TL if he thought it was right - that's his opinion. You can have it both ways, people have multiple jobs/roles/faces. If milkies was to TL what Nazgul is, then I guess the situation would be different, but as far as I know he isn't (I might be misinformed, I actually dont know if he's a free lance team member or what not, but if he is the voice of TL, then I am wrong, just let me know about it).
I'm sure there's EG haters out there but don't reduce any criticism to that. If they did sthg some us judge wrong, we're entitled to discuss it (and if we don't have all the info to have a proper judgment, well, it's up to them to remedy to this....until then, it seems few mistakes were made there, why not discuss about them ?)
The problem is that - to my knowledge - Incontrol's twitter isn't the official voice of EG. Neither is idras, neither is sirscoots. None of their twitters are that of EG's. They're personal. Therefore - by milkis' standard - they can't be considered as "official" and must be considered "personal."
It seems to be a double standard for "translators" or other bit players in the community. They're words arent' to be considered on their personal twitters, but if it's sirscoots - whose been around for 10 years and works for EG - then his word must be the official stance of EG, not just his opinion on the matter.
But maybe that's just me, i like having the same bar set for all people, regardless of what level they serve.
On July 23 2011 05:22 integrity wrote: I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on"
He can express his opinions just like anyone else. And besides, it's not even that extreme. He' just disspointed in the way this whole thing was handled. I htink a lot of people are.
If he was only disappointed in the situation, why did he call EG evil, and not geniuses. I'm pretty sure someone could sue him and win (not that I think he should be sued).
I am of the idea that EG management has to be very angry with TL already for those comments, that only go on top of Tyler's repeated bashing of anything EG does.
Well its like TLO said. If they want to play the bad guy then they better be ready to accept the criticism...
Funny thing is TL wasn't very good at accepting that game criticism back.
I'm with EG on this one. Granted, their PR damage control doesn't seem to be the best, but at its core this whole issue is about EG asking an un-signed player if he wants to sign up with them.
Regardless how people "feel" about EG's approaching a player despite him representing a different team at the time, that's just business. I have my current job because a good friend of mine approached me about working for him instead of my employer at the time. I gave my 2-weeks notice and now enjoy a better job and salary. He didn't have to go to my employer and negotiate terms to let me work for him. This is how non-contract work rolls, regardless of industry. If you want your employee to complete certain obligations/go through negotiations before they can be released, get a contract.
Besides, if anything, I actually think EG's move is good for esports overall. This incident has shone a light on how under-developed the business side of esports really is, and I believe will give a good boot to the butt of those in charge of developing better regulations and rules (e.g. Korea SC2 Player's Association, perhaps?) to create a more developed environment.
In short, if you ("you" meaning these Korean teams and coaches) don't like it, then fix it. Don't get mad at EG for being worlds ahead of you in terms of business management. Catch up: have players you want to keep sign contracts, establish better regulations and rules, get sponsors so you can pay your contracted players. Established sports scenes don't run on good intentions and rainbow unicorns; why are people getting in an uproar when they realize the same applies to esports?
In regards to TLO's OP: I agree that EG needs better PR. They shouldn't be getting overly defensive against a translator; that's just silly and unnecessary. They should just straight-up send a clear apology Milkis' way (assuming they haven't already) and be happy with their acquisition of PuMa.
On July 23 2011 06:19 VAR1ABLES wrote: Maybe IT's just me - but why is EG the bad guy again? Because they approach players? Like every other team does? I'm sure HuK talked to TL before leaving millenium so TL can't be on a high horse about this.
TLO hardly mentions the way which EG approached Puma (although it might be implied). IMO, there was hardly anything wrong with the way EG approached Puma except for the part about cultural sensitivities.
What TLO didn't like was the way EG handled the situation. Not coming up with even a short statement to quell the rumors and then blaming Milkis for the problem getting out of hand, which was IMO extremely arrogant.
ALSO: Am i the only one who gets pissed when someone says that their twitter is personal and only reflects their opinions when just minutes before they were saying that Sirscoots' twitter was the official word of team EG. You can't have it both ways man.
Milkis does not have any responsibility to any organization, TL included. SirScoots has a responsibility to EG. Nevertheless, I do agree that twitters meant to be personal (unless you're talking about organizations' official twitters.
Other than the bad PR from EG, which they really need help on, I still don't see what they did wrong with regards to Puma.
Players, coaches, etc. are always looking at players from other teams. There are always behind-the-scenes talk about joining up or whatever. Anyone who doesn't think this happens in professional sports is naive.
That said, EG respected Puma's wishes to have him talk to the coach instead of EG. What is wrong with that?
The way I see it, TSL management should have kept it quiet until it was actually official the Puma was joining EG. Once TSL management was aware of Puma's position, they should have contacted EG, not go public with it.
As far as I know, there isn't even a contract yet! All this EG bashing and TL love-fest is ridiculous.
And why are people feeling bad for TSL - you know the team that was founded when coach lee stole players from OGS - when they forced a player out, when he had not signed with EG, but simply told coach lee that he had been contacted by them.
Didn't know about that part but still, 2 wrongs make a right ?
No, but the point is TSL isn't exactly a bastion of freedom and ethics that everyone thinks they are. I feel no love towards them because of how they have treated their own countrymen in the past.
ALSO: Am i the only one who gets pissed when someone says that their twitter is personal and only reflects their opinions when just minutes before they were saying that Sirscoots' twitter was the official word of team EG. You can't have it both ways man.
Why ? Sirscoots is the voice of EG (at least to me, that's the only thing I know about him - and I am probably not the only one) while milkies is the voice of...milkies (same comment).
To take another parallel, when incontrol was mod on TL , if some e-drama was taking place in between TL and EG and inc tweeted about it, his opinion would always be the one defending EG - and that's how it should be, it's his job - whereas if another drama was taking place between TL and xxxx, he'd always defend TL if he thought it was right - that's his opinion. You can have it both ways, people have multiple jobs/roles/faces. If milkies was to TL what Nazgul is, then I guess the situation would be different, but as far as I know he isn't (I might be misinformed, I actually dont know if he's a free lance team member or what not, but if he is the voice of TL, then I am wrong, just let me know about it).
I'm sure there's EG haters out there but don't reduce any criticism to that. If they did sthg some us judge wrong, we're entitled to discuss it (and if we don't have all the info to have a proper judgment, well, it's up to them to remedy to this....until then, it seems few mistakes were made there, why not discuss about them ?)
The problem is that - to my knowledge - Incontrol's twitter isn't the official voice of EG. Neither is idras, neither is sirscoots. None of their twitters are that of EG's. They're personal. Therefore - by milkis' standard - they can't be considered as "official" and must be considered "personal."
It seems to be a double standard for "translators" or other bit players in the community. They're words arent' to be considered on their personal twitters, but if it's sirscoots - whose been around for 10 years and works for EG - then his word must be the official stance of EG, not just his opinion on the matter.
But maybe that's just me, i like having the same bar set for all people, regardless of what level they serve.
Well it's incidental to the whole conversation but yeah ideally you should set the same bar for all people, unfortunately the game is rigged at the start,....a bit player in the community is probably free to express his personal opinion at pretty much any time, a guy who's worked 10 years for a company and gets money at the end of each month is never gonna communicate his personal opinion on a public channel if it goes against his company's communication policy (unless he is willing to start looking for a job quickly after that)...
I don't see how EG did anything so terribly wrong, myself. If there was a contract, sure, talk to the people who have the contract.
When you want contractual arrangements with someone, you talk to the legal entity that is responsible for that person's current contract, be it a manager, team, or whatever. When there is no contract, you talk to the person you want to hire.
Imagine it this way. As an adult, you interview for a job. You impress the interviewer, and they make an offer. Would you, as a legal adult, want them to have to ask your mother's permission to hire you? No. Absolutely not. While you may respect her opinion or not, she has no legal say in the matter, and even informing her beforehand is at most a courtesy.
As to Milkis, while I understand he only translated the news originally, and he does a great service to the community as such, the fact of the matter is this: He allowed himself to be drawn in to an editorial role. Once he stopped translating and started giving opinions, even at request, he's no longer a neutral party. And coming from someone who didn't follow BW religiously, he sounded pretty biased against EG, at least on WoC.
EG should just rename to Evil Empire. The higher ups in the organization seem like complete jerks with some of the stuff they have pulled. They don't have passion for E-Sports they just want to make as much money from it as possible.
I didn't watch Weapon of Choice the other day, but it looks like I have to now. I can't believe they would attack a volunteer translator. Trying to blame the situation on Milkis? That's pathetic.
On July 23 2011 09:14 CongoJack wrote: EG should just rename to Evil Empire. The higher ups in the organization seem like complete jerks with some of the stuff they have pulled. They don't have passion for E-Sports they just want to make as much money from it as possible this goes for the players of EG as well.
The sponsors as a whole are also just out to make money. I've never heard anyone scream and rant about the big corporations that dump a huge prize pool on a tournament just being in it for the money. But that's what it is. Without corporate involvement, Esports wouldn't exist on the level it does. Hard to have professional gamers when nobody is paying them, and people tend to pay money to make money. Welcome to entertainment.
Yes, there are parts of the scene that legitimately just love being able to make money off of what they love, but overall, this is only possible at the end of the day because of big corporations trying to make money. Don't complain about it, be thankful for it.
On July 23 2011 09:40 Muffinman53 wrote: TLO, why so clear, concise, and awesome?
I didn't watch Weapon of Choice the other day, but it looks like I have to now. I can't believe they would attack a volunteer translator. Trying to blame the situation on Milkis? That's pathetic.
he wasn't blaming him for the situation. he was simply try to imply (in a non accusatory way) that the people posting these big topic articles should have some journalistic integrity and try to get the full story instead of going live to a big audience with only one side.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: Oh man the best part about the whole EG-Puma debate was Milkis (a neutral party, translator) being attacked by the EG's Executive director on Weapon of Choice for not contacting EG about their stance, while all he did was translate (and provide an opinion on his own twitter). The hilarity in this situation is AMAZING. EG did not contact coach lee, EG did not try to explain anything, EG did literally nothing. So a translator should be responsible for EG public relations. Fail...
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves." And that was an official topic on their own tournament...
Hypocrits.
My thoughts exactly. So true it hurts, you are a brave and proud sir Milkis
This is being asked out of actual curiosity, not a desire to inflame: Do people actually feel that during the course of WoC, Milki's maintained an unbiased translator-only role? The impression I've gotten here is that he really is biased enough on the subject matter that it isn't entirely unreasonable that EG would hope he would get their side of the story.
Yes, he only translated, but even translation can bring with it personal bias, with or without intent. Certainly if I heard of a big news event through a biased source, I'd want to hear both sides of the story, and if the source providing the news didn't provide both sides of the story, and I recognized a level of bias, I would take the entire thing with a grain of salt.
Yes, he was continually asked for opinion and perspective. But he made it very clear what he thought was right and wrong in the situation in his opinion, and his perspective neatly coincided with his opinion.
Not saying there's anything wrong with having opinions or standing by them, but I'm just curious why people feel he should be getting "diplomatic immunity" as it were, when he didn't maintain his translation only role.
Example: If I hear something news-ish on the O'Reilly factor, you bet your ass I'm looking for the whole story later.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: The hilarity in this situation is AMAZING. EG did not contact coach lee, EG did not try to explain anything, EG did literally nothing.
Look, it's pretty straightforward.
Milkis, as a disconnected third party, should take responsibility for his actions (even if they're just translations of other people's work) and make an effort to contact everyone involved in stuff he translates in his free time, just in case one of the parties involved can't string together a coherent message within eighteen hours.
By contrast, EG as an involved party in a transaction shouldn't be required to contact other parties affected by that transaction. That would be preposterous.
I can't believe how some people are finding this hard to understand, it seems cut and dry to me.
On July 22 2011 22:43 Snerren wrote: Why are people so god damn worked up about this? Headhunting and playerscalping is common in every high level sport there is. And its not like they stole Puma and he did not want to join and is beeing forced to play with EG. They gave him an offer HE took it. What's the problem?
in english football its illegal for you to contact any player under contract without the consent of the team he is contracted too
Good on you Milkis. You're doing a great job, and I hope you continue to translate.
EG you are a great team and you do good work in the community with tournaments/content etc. However you need some help with the way you present yourselves in public. Best hire an experienced community manager/PR person.
I just watched the latest episode of Weapon of Choice and I've read alot of the replies to this thread. I stopped watching Weapon of Choice as soon as they started attacking Milki, as I thought it was uncalled for. I do think though that EG didn't do anything wrong. Puma wasn'y under contract so that makes him by any sport I know of a free agent. I don't know alot about the SC2 community and don't pretend to but I don't think that you can blame EG for picking up Puma. I actually think people should be celebrating this and its impact on Esports. People should stop trying to attack EG, I think that after listening to Weapon of Choice that alot people saw Alex Garfield and thus EG in bad light which led to this positive situation turning into a problem. In a couple of years I think that we will look upon EG's signing of Puma as the first of many signings that will help to develop Esports. I understand many of the points I brought up have already been brought up, but I just thought I would throw in my two cents.
On July 23 2011 05:22 integrity wrote: I just wanted to say that as a fan of Mr. TLO i am very sad to see someone i respect resolve to "Team Bashing" on matters that have nothing to do with him. i understand we all have opinions but /sigh "come on"
then how do you feel about the executive director of a team bashing the shit out of a translator whos not even part of a team/organization?
If milkis stopped for a second and started making sense on WoC, I would maybe agree with you
On July 23 2011 11:01 JingleHell wrote: This is being asked out of actual curiosity, not a desire to inflame: Do people actually feel that during the course of WoC, Milki's maintained an unbiased translator-only role? The impression I've gotten here is that he really is biased enough on the subject matter that it isn't entirely unreasonable that EG would hope he would get their side of the story.
Yes, he only translated, but even translation can bring with it personal bias, with or without intent. Certainly if I heard of a big news event through a biased source, I'd want to hear both sides of the story, and if the source providing the news didn't provide both sides of the story, and I recognized a level of bias, I would take the entire thing with a grain of salt.
Yes, he was continually asked for opinion and perspective. But he made it very clear what he thought was right and wrong in the situation in his opinion, and his perspective neatly coincided with his opinion.
Not saying there's anything wrong with having opinions or standing by them, but I'm just curious why people feel he should be getting "diplomatic immunity" as it were, when he didn't maintain his translation only role.
Example: If I hear something news-ish on the O'Reilly factor, you bet your ass I'm looking for the whole story later.
Becauase O'Reilly is payed, Milkis isn't. Because Milkis is a volunteer. Because Milkis is fucking invaluable to our community therefore we don't want to alienate him, attack him, or lose his contributions. Because we love Milkis. <3
On July 23 2011 11:01 JingleHell wrote: This is being asked out of actual curiosity, not a desire to inflame: Do people actually feel that during the course of WoC, Milki's maintained an unbiased translator-only role? The impression I've gotten here is that he really is biased enough on the subject matter that it isn't entirely unreasonable that EG would hope he would get their side of the story.
Yes, he only translated, but even translation can bring with it personal bias, with or without intent. Certainly if I heard of a big news event through a biased source, I'd want to hear both sides of the story, and if the source providing the news didn't provide both sides of the story, and I recognized a level of bias, I would take the entire thing with a grain of salt.
Yes, he was continually asked for opinion and perspective. But he made it very clear what he thought was right and wrong in the situation in his opinion, and his perspective neatly coincided with his opinion.
Not saying there's anything wrong with having opinions or standing by them, but I'm just curious why people feel he should be getting "diplomatic immunity" as it were, when he didn't maintain his translation only role.
Example: If I hear something news-ish on the O'Reilly factor, you bet your ass I'm looking for the whole story later.
Becauase O'Reilly is payed, Milkis isn't. Because Milkis is a volunteer. Because Milkis is fucking invaluable to our community therefore we don't want to alienate him, attack him, or lose his contributions. Because we love Milkis. <3
Is that really all the answer my question merits? I felt I was asking a reasonable question, with multiple valid points and a reasonable analogy, and all I get back is a string of incoherent babble that doesn't even answer my question.
How does getting paid affect the fact that he chose to editorialize? He revealed his bias, and then took personal offense at being called on it. I didn't think the way it was called out was so far out of line. Translation is providing news. A reporter doesn't (hopefully) invent the story, he just brings it to the market. A translator moves it to a different market, but that doesn't prevent the translator from being the reporter to the community he brings it to.
So please, answer my questions with something rational.
On July 23 2011 11:01 JingleHell wrote: This is being asked out of actual curiosity, not a desire to inflame: Do people actually feel that during the course of WoC, Milki's maintained an unbiased translator-only role? The impression I've gotten here is that he really is biased enough on the subject matter that it isn't entirely unreasonable that EG would hope he would get their side of the story.
Yes, he only translated, but even translation can bring with it personal bias, with or without intent. Certainly if I heard of a big news event through a biased source, I'd want to hear both sides of the story, and if the source providing the news didn't provide both sides of the story, and I recognized a level of bias, I would take the entire thing with a grain of salt.
Yes, he was continually asked for opinion and perspective. But he made it very clear what he thought was right and wrong in the situation in his opinion, and his perspective neatly coincided with his opinion.
Not saying there's anything wrong with having opinions or standing by them, but I'm just curious why people feel he should be getting "diplomatic immunity" as it were, when he didn't maintain his translation only role.
Example: If I hear something news-ish on the O'Reilly factor, you bet your ass I'm looking for the whole story later.
Becauase O'Reilly is payed, Milkis isn't. Because Milkis is a volunteer. Because Milkis is fucking invaluable to our community therefore we don't want to alienate him, attack him, or lose his contributions. Because we love Milkis. <3
Is that really all the answer my question merits? I felt I was asking a reasonable question, with multiple valid points and a reasonable analogy, and all I get back is a string of incoherent babble that doesn't even answer my question.
How does getting paid affect the fact that he chose to editorialize? He revealed his bias, and then took personal offense at being called on it. I didn't think the way it was called out was so far out of line. Translation is providing news. A reporter doesn't (hopefully) invent the story, he just brings it to the market. A translator moves it to a different market, but that doesn't prevent the translator from being the reporter to the community he brings it to.
So please, answer my questions with something rational.
Sorry you don't understand. Allow me to spell it out for you.
Volunteer = diplomatic immunity. Got it? Get it? Good!
To answer your first question, yes, that's all it merits.
EG deserves nothing from Milkis. We deserve nothing from Milkis. He has no standards. I'm just happy he translates for us at all. Not happy? Go translate yourself and be non-biased. I won't.
This is nothing new from EG. Always shady with the facade that "this is just how business works." I trust BoSS about 1000% more than AG about how business works, and he doesn't seem to like how everything went down. And I don't think it's fair business practice to be gauging interest from someone like Sen, a contracted player as opposed to PuMa, about what he's going to do when his contract is up.
I just watched the weapon of choice episode where most of what TLO is talking about took place.
So, I would like to also point out that Alex Garfield may have misunderstood the problem with contacting Puma first rather than coach Lee.
By giving Puma your business card and giving him time to think about an offer that he was inclined to take because of the monetary benefits, he was already almost sure that he was going to join EG. Then, once he eventually opened up to coach Lee (from my understanding), Puma seemed to have his heart set on joining team EG. Coach Lee, like mentioned by Milkis, supports his players in whatever they want to do, and because Puma's mind was set on joining EG, coach Lee was not going to try and deny Puma of that opportunity.
Therefore, coach Lee reacted in a negative way toward EG's handling of the situation. If they would have talked to coach Lee before or around the same time of talking to Puma, this situation could have been avoided. Now, whether or not this is a Korean culture thing, or it is just a general ethical situation, EG should have contacted the coach to avoid a situation like this regardless.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: The hilarity in this situation is AMAZING. EG did not contact coach lee, EG did not try to explain anything, EG did literally nothing.
Look, it's pretty straightforward.
Milkis, as a disconnected third party, should take responsibility for his actions (even if they're just translations of other people's work) and make an effort to contact everyone involved in stuff he translates in his free time, just in case one of the parties involved can't string together a coherent message within eighteen hours.
By contrast, EG as an involved party in a transaction shouldn't be required to contact other parties affected by that transaction. That would be preposterous.
I can't believe how some people are finding this hard to understand, it seems cut and dry to me.
Maybe it's because it makes absolutely no sense. Milkis is not obligated to do anything for anyone. All he did was provide translations of korean articles which was completely accurate. He is not responsible for the bias in the korean articles that carried over, EG's inability to respond appropriately to the situation, or anything else for that matter.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: The hilarity in this situation is AMAZING. EG did not contact coach lee, EG did not try to explain anything, EG did literally nothing.
Look, it's pretty straightforward.
Milkis, as a disconnected third party, should take responsibility for his actions (even if they're just translations of other people's work) and make an effort to contact everyone involved in stuff he translates in his free time, just in case one of the parties involved can't string together a coherent message within eighteen hours.
By contrast, EG as an involved party in a transaction shouldn't be required to contact other parties affected by that transaction. That would be preposterous.
I can't believe how some people are finding this hard to understand, it seems cut and dry to me.
Maybe it's because it makes absolutely no sense. Milkis is not obligated to do anything for anyone. All he did was provide translations of korean articles which was completely accurate. He is not responsible for the bias in the korean articles that carried over, EG's inability to respond appropriately to the situation, or anything else for that matter.
Do you hold him accountable for his own obvious bias during the WoC conversation? It's very possibly for bias to creep into translation. I don't know Korean, so I won't say it did or didn't happen, but the question itself was posed in a reasonable manner, and Milkis editorialized enough during WoC to invite the question.
And why is EG somehow in the wrong for not asking the TSL coach for Puma's hand in marriage... oh wait, it's a player/team contract, the coach isn't his daddy, and there's nothing for him to be officially "released" from. I don't see how they should have handled it significantly differently.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: The hilarity in this situation is AMAZING. EG did not contact coach lee, EG did not try to explain anything, EG did literally nothing.
Look, it's pretty straightforward.
Milkis, as a disconnected third party, should take responsibility for his actions (even if they're just translations of other people's work) and make an effort to contact everyone involved in stuff he translates in his free time, just in case one of the parties involved can't string together a coherent message within eighteen hours.
By contrast, EG as an involved party in a transaction shouldn't be required to contact other parties affected by that transaction. That would be preposterous.
I can't believe how some people are finding this hard to understand, it seems cut and dry to me.
Maybe it's because it makes absolutely no sense. Milkis is not obligated to do anything for anyone. All he did was provide translations of korean articles which was completely accurate. He is not responsible for the bias in the korean articles that carried over, EG's inability to respond appropriately to the situation, or anything else for that matter.
Do you hold him accountable for his own obvious bias during the WoC conversation? It's very possibly for bias to creep into translation. I don't know Korean, so I won't say it did or didn't happen, but the question itself was posed in a reasonable manner, and Milkis editorialized enough during WoC to invite the question.
And why is EG somehow in the wrong for not asking the TSL coach for Puma's hand in marriage... oh wait, it's a player/team contract, the coach isn't his daddy, and there's nothing for him to be officially "released" from. I don't see how they should have handled it significantly differently.
lol why would he be held accountable for his bias in WoC? He can think whatever he wants. He can tweet about what he thinks of the situation, which he kind of did. The only thing that would be inappropriate is intentionally mistranslating the korean articles which he didn't. AG accuses Milkis of not approaching him first to get the facts right because the korean articles were potentially biased/missing information. This has nothing to do with Milkis who just translated the articles and provided his opinions of them after.
As for the second part, I'm tired of arguing the same point over and over again. Go read my other posts if you're really interested.
This was all a shitstorm born of poor editorializing, Coach Lee running his mouth far too quickly when he himself didn't know all the facts and the low maturity level of TL jumping to conclusions minutes after tweets were posted and they knew fuck all as per usual.
Quite frankly coach Lee was a total prick in the way he handled the situation. Either was ignorant that Puma hadn't signed the contract yet and should have shut the fuck up, or he did and intentionally put a lot of negative pressure on Puma before he signs the contract which could leave him up shit creek without a paddle career-wise and with a lot of haters. If he really cared about Puma he wouldn't have said anything just yet. How can we believe that he cares so much about his players when all the hate heaped onto Puma is a direct result of him shooting his mouth off? It's spiteful and pathetic.
In this new media world with twitter and facebook in an environment where this kind of news is not mainstream, the TL community is shockingly immature in how it processes news and jumps to conclusions in fucking minutes. In short, it's highly debatable whether EG actually did anything wrong considering they left everything in Puma's hands and it was his decision and the whole SC2 community needs to slow the fuck down and wait for more information before they jump to conclusions.
On July 23 2011 15:26 Ziggitz wrote: This was all a shitstorm born of poor editorializing, Coach Lee running his mouth far too quickly when he himself didn't know all the facts and the low maturity level of TL jumping to conclusions minutes after tweets were posted and they knew fuck all as per usual.
Quite frankly coach Lee was a total prick in the way he handled the situation. Either was ignorant that Puma hadn't signed the contract yet and should have shut the fuck up, or he did and intentionally put a lot of negative pressure on Puma before he signs the contract which could leave him up shit creek without a paddle career-wise and with a lot of haters. If he really cared about Puma he wouldn't have said anything just yet. How can we believe that he cares so much about his players when all the hate heaped onto Puma is a direct result of him shooting his mouth off? It's spiteful and pathetic.
In this new media world with twitter and facebook in an environment where this kind of news is not mainstream, the TL community is shockingly immature in how it processes news and jumps to conclusions in fucking minutes. In short, it's highly debatable whether EG actually did anything wrong considering they left everything in Puma's hands and it was his decision and the whole SC2 community needs to slow the fuck down and wait for more information before they jump to conclusions.
Yeah, Lee is a total prick, people in the community are haters, Milkis is biased and responsible for EG's PR and EG are naive and innocent and never did anything wrong. Sums up half the posts in these threads just nicely. ^^
You do understand that you can't instruct other people on what their principles and opinions should be, right? Your coming here and calling a number of people (including TLO and Tyler incidentally) immature haters has no weight whatsoever. Your coming here and telling "the people" how they should behave has no weight whatsoever either. That imaginary high ground you think you're standing on - doesn't really exist.
God, stop being so presumptuous (this goes out to a lot of people). If you can't deal with a perfectly valid opinion that somebody has, don't engage in discussion.
Couldn't have said it better myself.. And for EG to attack Milkis for simply translating? Come on....
And the thing that ticks me off the most about this whole situation is the fact that Scoots (and to a lesser extent even incontrol) tweet about the whole situation, basically spitting in our faces for apparently not knowing all the facts (or in incontrol's case just laughing about the whole ordeal), and then do nothing to clarify it themselves? THEN they attack a 3rd party translator?
Really unprofessional by EG, everything they've done in regards to this is a total joke..
Better player salary and opportunity offered to Korean players by foreign teams is irrelevant to this specific issue - whether EG should have contacted TSL before making an offer to Puma. Why do people bring it up?
(1) EG should have let TSL know (not for permission but to let them in the loop) that they were going to make Puma an offer. That would have been professional and shown basic courtesy.
(2) EG should not have agreed to let Puma personally inform TSL about the offer. That's not professional.
(3) EG should not have agreed to let Puma delay informing TSL until he got back to Korea. The offer had been made and Puma should have contacted his team ASAP via phone call or e-mail. They should have foreseen that Puma could blindside TSL with a thought-out decision by the time he got back to Korea, as opposed to just news of EG's offer and that he was contemplating it.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: The hilarity in this situation is AMAZING. EG did not contact coach lee, EG did not try to explain anything, EG did literally nothing.
Look, it's pretty straightforward.
Milkis, as a disconnected third party, should take responsibility for his actions (even if they're just translations of other people's work) and make an effort to contact everyone involved in stuff he translates in his free time, just in case one of the parties involved can't string together a coherent message within eighteen hours.
By contrast, EG as an involved party in a transaction shouldn't be required to contact other parties affected by that transaction. That would be preposterous.
I can't believe how some people are finding this hard to understand, it seems cut and dry to me.
Wait, so a neutral party, not a journalist, that has no affiliation with anyone, should contact everyone instead of just translate what he found and wait for the parties to explain themselves (EG is all over TL), while one of the parties involved should not convey the others view even if they already know it. Thats a hilariously skewed view...
Edit: I think I fail at noticing sarcasm in the morning T_T
On July 23 2011 14:45 Apollo_Shards wrote: Can someone PM me on what happened with EGs CS team that was similar to this? And I agree with you TLO.
Why PM? This is history that people should know about.
Basically after the fall of CGS, participating teams lost their nice salaries and had to find new sponsors/re-sign agreements with old sponsors (because most teams lost sponsors when they made the decision to join CGS). Complexity CS was in this situation, and all Jason Lake asked was for some time to find sponsors - note that this is the man who put his money on the line for a LONG time to grow/support/build that team into a dominant championship-winning team.
AG's EG had a crapload of sponsors at that time because EG was the most stable organization to turn to when everyone else had jumped into CGS.
Also note that AG was JL's good friend at that time, and assistant manager on the CGS team - so he knew the situation Complexity were in and basically "offered his business card" (see what i did there?) to the CS team without JL ever knowing.
CS team accepts the offer, turns around and tells JL, "hey, we're going with EG". Conclusion: JL was hung out to dry with no team, and AG suddenly gets the #1 CS team in NA.
Thanks TLO, I think I can agree fully with you and your thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to post this.
On a different note, I posted my opinions on my blog earlier about the FXO fOu transaction and my blog got removed right away and was asked to post on the main thread, I don't see how this post differs from mine, there is a main thread about this also... Either way, w/e I am just a little befuddled, I know TLO is very well respected and all... I don't wait to cause trouble but can any mod tell me what the difference was?
It's in the ten commandments. On TL some people have more rights than others. If you are a nobody things will get deleated randomly at the whim of some mod depending on how the wind is blowing that day. You just got to live with it.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: The hilarity in this situation is AMAZING. EG did not contact coach lee, EG did not try to explain anything, EG did literally nothing.
Look, it's pretty straightforward.
Milkis, as a disconnected third party, should take responsibility for his actions (even if they're just translations of other people's work) and make an effort to contact everyone involved in stuff he translates in his free time, just in case one of the parties involved can't string together a coherent message within eighteen hours.
By contrast, EG as an involved party in a transaction shouldn't be required to contact other parties affected by that transaction. That would be preposterous.
I can't believe how some people are finding this hard to understand, it seems cut and dry to me.
Wait, so a neutral party, not a journalist, that has no affiliation with anyone, should contact everyone instead of just translate what he found and wait for the parties to explain themselves (EG is all over TL), while one of the parties involved should not convey the others view even if they already know it. Thats a hilariously skewed view...
Edit: I think I fail at noticing sarcasm in the morning T_T
On July 23 2011 14:45 Apollo_Shards wrote: Can someone PM me on what happened with EGs CS team that was similar to this? And I agree with you TLO.
Why PM? This is history that people should know about.
Basically after the fall of CGS, participating teams lost their nice salaries and had to find new sponsors/re-sign agreements with old sponsors (because most teams lost sponsors when they made the decision to join CGS). Complexity CS was in this situation, and all Jason Lake asked was for some time to find sponsors - note that this is the man who put his money on the line for a LONG time to grow/support/build that team into a dominant championship-winning team.
AG's EG had a crapload of sponsors at that time because EG was the most stable organization to turn to when everyone else had jumped into CGS.
Also note that AG was JL's good friend at that time, and assistant manager on the CGS team - so he knew the situation Complexity were in and basically "offered his business card" (see what i did there?) to the CS team without JL ever knowing.
CS team accepts the offer, turns around and tells JL, "hey, we're going with EG". Conclusion: JL was hung out to dry with no team, and AG suddenly gets the #1 CS team in NA.
But I like IdrA, JWong, and Ricky Ortiz so much.. Why couldn't they be on a different team. :<
Cant help after reading all this about Milkis or not Milkis...
That given the standards and what he defended in WoC...
Milkis is as much asociated with TL as Puma was with TSL.
TSL gives practice and housing. TL gives a platform to get your word out and then go and do amazing things like spending the weekedn with MLG translating for the koreans.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves."
I knew I was forgetting something.
Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious..
FOR ESPORTS!!
Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up.
I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with.
But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is.
Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do.
Bring out the pitchforks!
You see this is the thing - if you don't UNDERSTAND why we are upset, why not admit you don't understand?
I mean, it is painfully difficult to not understand it when there's so many posts explaining their views, their opinions, and most importantly THEIR PRINCIPLES, but obviously it's still possible (whether because you didn't read it or chose to ignore it is irrelevant).
You don't decide what's a "big deal" and what isn't. I decide what's a big deal for me. TLO decides what's a big deal for him. Every single person does that. If so many of us consider it a big deal, then you coming here and telling us how it isn't and how we're all overreacting based on something you consider to be the objective truth (but really isn't) is beyond ridiculous.
This whole issue is ultimately a matter of personal standards and principles. You don't find it a big deal? That says enough about your personal standards and principles.
Nobody is pissed off at EG because it's EG, or because of any specific person in EG. One year ago, there was no bad sentiment towards EG in the community whatsoever. Between that time and now, they have done many things to change that, and people's opinion of EG changed to reflect that. It's all a consequence of their actions - not some declared witch-hunt you're imagining. The worst thing is that EG still doesn't get it or they pretend not to get it.
To me personally it's obvious that many people don't really understand the Starcraft community either (hence they don't understand why coach Lee is upset, why the Korean fans are upset, and why a lot of people on TL are upset). If you go look at all the threads related to this issue, you'll see absurd number of posts that say things like "well that's how things are done in football/basketball/soccer/counter-strike its perfectly normal" and consider it a catch-all argument - but guess what - THIS ISN'T football or basketball or soccer or counter-strike.
Try to understand the community and try to understand how things are different here and how many of us want to keep it different, and you might understand why this is a fairly big deal and why we feel so strongly about it. If you don't want to try, that's fine as well - just don't presume to tell others what should and shouldn't be a big deal for them. The same goes for EG if they don't want to become the poison brand of SC2 (even more than they are already).
People have all the right to be upset, but so far in various threads about this topic i've heard this is comparable to:
-evil businesses killing people with toxic waste -women being raped because the way they dress -ww2 ( this guy was taking the piss i pressume, but hey, it's the internet, you never know) - i didnt read the other 250 pages, so i'm sure there's more of these gems in there
Some other people are calling out to boycot EG's sponsors. I'm sure Intell, Monster and whoever else is sponsering them (and E-sports in general) are behind this masterplan of recruiting Puma without talking to his coach first.
Rooting for EG players apparantly is out of the question aswell: it's not like they actually have to do anything with it, but hey, they're all evil bastards right?
Let's say that again: They talked to Puma without talking to his coach first. alright it's disrespectfull to korean culture. but it is what it is, it's not the f*cking end of the world.
Everyone seems to be taking this moral high ground and portraying EG as this super evil company whilst they're all wearing there clothes made by 10 year olds who are nothing more then slaves, heathing there houses and driving there cars with products of these multinational supercompanies who are destroying the environment, etc....
For me personally, people should get some perspective. get off your high horse about shit that doesn't mean anything and show this same passion towards actual problems.
SC2 is an amazing game, and an even more so amazing spectator sport for me. But in the end, it's just a game. And unless your livelyhood depends on it, you don't need to go overly crazy about everything.
tldr: people are ok to be pissed off and what not. but in the grand scheme of things, isn't all this hassle abit over the top?
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves."
I knew I was forgetting something.
Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious..
FOR ESPORTS!!
Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up.
I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with.
But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is.
Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do.
Bring out the pitchforks!
You see this is the thing - if you don't UNDERSTAND why we are upset, why not admit you don't understand?
I mean, it is painfully difficult to not understand it when there's so many posts explaining their views, their opinions, and most importantly THEIR PRINCIPLES, but obviously it's still possible (whether because you didn't read it or chose to ignore it is irrelevant).
You don't decide what's a "big deal" and what isn't. I decide what's a big deal for me. TLO decides what's a big deal for him. Every single person does that. If so many of us consider it a big deal, then you coming here and telling us how it isn't and how we're all overreacting based on something you consider to be the objective truth (but really isn't) is beyond ridiculous.
This whole issue is ultimately a matter of personal standards and principles. You don't find it a big deal? That says enough about your personal standards and principles.
Nobody is pissed off at EG because it's EG, or because of any specific person in EG. One year ago, there was no bad sentiment towards EG in the community whatsoever. Between that time and now, they have done many things to change that, and people's opinion of EG changed to reflect that. It's all a consequence of their actions - not some declared witch-hunt you're imagining. The worst thing is that EG still doesn't get it or they pretend not to get it.
To me personally it's obvious that many people don't really understand the Starcraft community either (hence they don't understand why coach Lee is upset, why the Korean fans are upset, and why a lot of people on TL are upset). If you go look at all the threads related to this issue, you'll see absurd number of posts that say things like "well that's how things are done in football/basketball/soccer/counter-strike its perfectly normal" and consider it a catch-all argument - but guess what - THIS ISN'T football or basketball or soccer or counter-strike.
Try to understand the community and try to understand how things are different here and how many of us want to keep it different, and you might understand why this is a fairly big deal and why we feel so strongly about it. If you don't want to try, that's fine as well - just don't presume to tell others what should and shouldn't be a big deal for them. The same goes for EG if they don't want to become the poison brand of SC2 (even more than they are already).
Some other people are calling out to boycot EG's sponsors. I'm sure Intell, Monster and whoever else is sponsering them (and E-sports in general) are behind this masterplan of recruiting Puma without talking to his coach first.
Note: I'm not saying you should or shouldn't boycott, that's not the point I'm addressing.
But if you were to go about wanting to show dislike or upset with a team, the only way you have to go after them is to boycott their sponsors. It's not that Intel/Monster/etc are the "badguys", instead that boycotting them is just the only way one can express our dislike for it to be "felt", so to speak.
On July 23 2011 14:45 Apollo_Shards wrote: Can someone PM me on what happened with EGs CS team that was similar to this? And I agree with you TLO.
Why PM? This is history that people should know about.
Basically after the fall of CGS, participating teams lost their nice salaries and had to find new sponsors/re-sign agreements with old sponsors (because most teams lost sponsors when they made the decision to join CGS). Complexity CS was in this situation, and all Jason Lake asked was for some time to find sponsors - note that this is the man who put his money on the line for a LONG time to grow/support/build that team into a dominant championship-winning team.
AG's EG had a crapload of sponsors at that time because EG was the most stable organization to turn to when everyone else had jumped into CGS.
Also note that AG was JL's good friend at that time, and assistant manager on the CGS team - so he knew the situation Complexity were in and basically "offered his business card" (see what i did there?) to the CS team without JL ever knowing.
CS team accepts the offer, turns around and tells JL, "hey, we're going with EG". Conclusion: JL was hung out to dry with no team, and AG suddenly gets the #1 CS team in NA.
But I like IdrA, JWong, and Ricky Ortiz so much.. Why couldn't they be on a different team. :<
I hope this is just super biased or something. :/
Not biased at all, just telling it how it happened. Anybody following the cs scene back then would say the same (as someone else in this thread has already echoed my comments) - but don't take my word for it, search for the GotFrag archives and you can read them for yourself
On a side note, it shouldn't matter if this now makes you uncomfortable about EG - you should still support your favourite players (JWong, Idra, etc). Players and the organization that they're in are two separate things, you CAN choose to which entity you want your dollars to go to.
On July 23 2011 14:45 Apollo_Shards wrote: Can someone PM me on what happened with EGs CS team that was similar to this? And I agree with you TLO.
Why PM? This is history that people should know about.
Basically after the fall of CGS, participating teams lost their nice salaries and had to find new sponsors/re-sign agreements with old sponsors (because most teams lost sponsors when they made the decision to join CGS). Complexity CS was in this situation, and all Jason Lake asked was for some time to find sponsors - note that this is the man who put his money on the line for a LONG time to grow/support/build that team into a dominant championship-winning team.
AG's EG had a crapload of sponsors at that time because EG was the most stable organization to turn to when everyone else had jumped into CGS.
Also note that AG was JL's good friend at that time, and assistant manager on the CGS team - so he knew the situation Complexity were in and basically "offered his business card" (see what i did there?) to the CS team without JL ever knowing.
CS team accepts the offer, turns around and tells JL, "hey, we're going with EG". Conclusion: JL was hung out to dry with no team, and AG suddenly gets the #1 CS team in NA.
But I like IdrA, JWong, and Ricky Ortiz so much.. Why couldn't they be on a different team. :<
I hope this is just super biased or something. :/
Not biased at all, just telling it how it happened. Anybody following the cs scene back then would say the same (as someone else in this thread has already echoed my comments) - but don't take my word for it, search for the GotFrag archives and you can read them for yourself
On a side note, it shouldn't matter if this now makes you uncomfortable about EG - you should still support your favourite players (JWong, Idra, etc). Players and the organization that they're in are two separate things, you CAN choose to which entity you want your dollars to go to.
I dunno, I find it hard to support a guy on a team that I am growing to despise more and more, I guess. :s I don't think I'll dislike the players because of their team or anything, but it certainly makes it more hard to root for them.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves."
I knew I was forgetting something.
Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious..
FOR ESPORTS!!
Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up.
I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with.
But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is.
Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do.
Bring out the pitchforks!
You see this is the thing - if you don't UNDERSTAND why we are upset, why not admit you don't understand?
I mean, it is painfully difficult to not understand it when there's so many posts explaining their views, their opinions, and most importantly THEIR PRINCIPLES, but obviously it's still possible (whether because you didn't read it or chose to ignore it is irrelevant).
You don't decide what's a "big deal" and what isn't. I decide what's a big deal for me. TLO decides what's a big deal for him. Every single person does that. If so many of us consider it a big deal, then you coming here and telling us how it isn't and how we're all overreacting based on something you consider to be the objective truth (but really isn't) is beyond ridiculous.
This whole issue is ultimately a matter of personal standards and principles. You don't find it a big deal? That says enough about your personal standards and principles.
Nobody is pissed off at EG because it's EG, or because of any specific person in EG. One year ago, there was no bad sentiment towards EG in the community whatsoever. Between that time and now, they have done many things to change that, and people's opinion of EG changed to reflect that. It's all a consequence of their actions - not some declared witch-hunt you're imagining. The worst thing is that EG still doesn't get it or they pretend not to get it.
To me personally it's obvious that many people don't really understand the Starcraft community either (hence they don't understand why coach Lee is upset, why the Korean fans are upset, and why a lot of people on TL are upset). If you go look at all the threads related to this issue, you'll see absurd number of posts that say things like "well that's how things are done in football/basketball/soccer/counter-strike its perfectly normal" and consider it a catch-all argument - but guess what - THIS ISN'T football or basketball or soccer or counter-strike.
Try to understand the community and try to understand how things are different here and how many of us want to keep it different, and you might understand why this is a fairly big deal and why we feel so strongly about it. If you don't want to try, that's fine as well - just don't presume to tell others what should and shouldn't be a big deal for them. The same goes for EG if they don't want to become the poison brand of SC2 (even more than they are already).
People have all the right to be upset, but so far in various threads about this topic i've heard this is comparable to:
-evil businesses killing people with toxic waste -women being raped because the way they dress -ww2 ( this guy was taking the piss i pressume, but hey, it's the internet, you never know) - i didnt read the other 250 pages, so i'm sure there's more of these gems in there
Some other people are calling out to boycot EG's sponsors. I'm sure Intell, Monster and whoever else is sponsering them (and E-sports in general) are behind this masterplan of recruiting Puma without talking to his coach first.
Rooting for EG players apparantly is out of the question aswell: it's not like they actually have to do anything with it, but hey, they're all evil bastards right?
Let's say that again: They talked to Puma without talking to his coach first. alright it's disrespectfull to korean culture. but it is what it is, it's not the f*cking end of the world.
Everyone seems to be taking this moral high ground and portraying EG as this super evil company whilst they're all wearing there clothes made by 10 year olds who are nothing more then slaves, heathing there houses and driving there cars with products of these multinational supercompanies who are destroying the environment, etc....
For me personally, people should get some perspective. get off your high horse about shit that doesn't mean anything and show this same passion towards actual problems.
SC2 is an amazing game, and an even more so amazing spectator sport for me. But in the end, it's just a game. And unless your livelyhood depends on it, you don't need to go overly crazy about everything.
tldr: people are ok to be pissed off and what not. but in the grand scheme of things, isn't all this hassle abit over the top?
That bolded part in your post rubs me wrong in every way possible. What the fuck do you mean by it?
If your concern is with the issues you're bringing up than you should be yelling the loudest, because child exploitation and environmental disregard are morally wrong and are unscrupulous business practices, just as player poaching is.
If you do not care and think this is something not worth the attention it is getting, and you still don't get it after reading all the posts about it, man, don't post. Just stick to EG and faboy it out till the end of time. Trying to call people hypocrites in such a sloppy fashion is just trolling.
From the way EG defended themselves on a friendly medium it was clear that they tried to approach some teams first but didn't like the money they needed to fork out to get players that way, then they got the idea to start innocently "handing out business cards" directly to the players. This, to me, is disgusting. Any player that resigns the contract with such an establishment, IMO, is directly supporting this behavior and are disgust worthy themselves. Sponsors that support such teams should be also made aware what they are actually giving their money to, some of them I am sure would heavily object in being represented that way.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves."
I knew I was forgetting something.
Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious..
FOR ESPORTS!!
Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up.
I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with.
But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is.
Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do.
Bring out the pitchforks!
You see this is the thing - if you don't UNDERSTAND why we are upset, why not admit you don't understand?
I mean, it is painfully difficult to not understand it when there's so many posts explaining their views, their opinions, and most importantly THEIR PRINCIPLES, but obviously it's still possible (whether because you didn't read it or chose to ignore it is irrelevant).
You don't decide what's a "big deal" and what isn't. I decide what's a big deal for me. TLO decides what's a big deal for him. Every single person does that. If so many of us consider it a big deal, then you coming here and telling us how it isn't and how we're all overreacting based on something you consider to be the objective truth (but really isn't) is beyond ridiculous.
This whole issue is ultimately a matter of personal standards and principles. You don't find it a big deal? That says enough about your personal standards and principles.
Nobody is pissed off at EG because it's EG, or because of any specific person in EG. One year ago, there was no bad sentiment towards EG in the community whatsoever. Between that time and now, they have done many things to change that, and people's opinion of EG changed to reflect that. It's all a consequence of their actions - not some declared witch-hunt you're imagining. The worst thing is that EG still doesn't get it or they pretend not to get it.
To me personally it's obvious that many people don't really understand the Starcraft community either (hence they don't understand why coach Lee is upset, why the Korean fans are upset, and why a lot of people on TL are upset). If you go look at all the threads related to this issue, you'll see absurd number of posts that say things like "well that's how things are done in football/basketball/soccer/counter-strike its perfectly normal" and consider it a catch-all argument - but guess what - THIS ISN'T football or basketball or soccer or counter-strike.
Try to understand the community and try to understand how things are different here and how many of us want to keep it different, and you might understand why this is a fairly big deal and why we feel so strongly about it. If you don't want to try, that's fine as well - just don't presume to tell others what should and shouldn't be a big deal for them. The same goes for EG if they don't want to become the poison brand of SC2 (even more than they are already).
People have all the right to be upset, but so far in various threads about this topic i've heard this is comparable to:
-evil businesses killing people with toxic waste -women being raped because the way they dress -ww2 ( this guy was taking the piss i pressume, but hey, it's the internet, you never know) - i didnt read the other 250 pages, so i'm sure there's more of these gems in there
Some other people are calling out to boycot EG's sponsors. I'm sure Intell, Monster and whoever else is sponsering them (and E-sports in general) are behind this masterplan of recruiting Puma without talking to his coach first.
Rooting for EG players apparantly is out of the question aswell: it's not like they actually have to do anything with it, but hey, they're all evil bastards right?
Let's say that again: They talked to Puma without talking to his coach first. alright it's disrespectfull to korean culture. but it is what it is, it's not the f*cking end of the world.
Everyone seems to be taking this moral high ground and portraying EG as this super evil company whilst they're all wearing there clothes made by 10 year olds who are nothing more then slaves, heathing there houses and driving there cars with products of these multinational supercompanies who are destroying the environment, etc....
For me personally, people should get some perspective. get off your high horse about shit that doesn't mean anything and show this same passion towards actual problems.
SC2 is an amazing game, and an even more so amazing spectator sport for me. But in the end, it's just a game. And unless your livelyhood depends on it, you don't need to go overly crazy about everything.
tldr: people are ok to be pissed off and what not. but in the grand scheme of things, isn't all this hassle abit over the top?
That bolded part in your post rubs me wrong in every way possible. What the fuck do you mean by it?
If your concern is with the issues you're bringing up than you should be yelling the loudest, because child exploitation and environmental disregard are morally wrong and are unscrupulous business practices, just as player poaching is.
If you do not care and think this is something not worth the attention it is getting, and you still don't get it after reading all the posts about it, man, don't post. Just stick to EG and faboy it out till the end of time. Trying to call people hypocrites in such a sloppy fashion is just trolling.
From the way EG defended themselves on a friendly medium it was clear that they tried to approach some teams first but didn't like the money they needed to fork out to get players that way, then they got the idea to start innocently "handing out business cards" directly to the players. This, to me, is disgusting. Any player that resigns the contract with such an establishment, IMO, is directly supporting this behavior and are disgust worthy themselves. Sponsors that support such teams should be also made aware what they are actually giving their money to, some of them I am sure would heavily object in being represented that way.
Poaching/headhunting is a natural part of eSports, professional sports, business, and life in general. Sponsors and people in general are aware of this and won't deem it disgusting or morally bankrupt like the extremely vocal minority does on TL forums.
On July 24 2011 02:00 Ezze wrote: I'm glad I'm on the same page as my fav players. EG is such a joke of a team.
It's not the players, but the way in which EG does things. I mean, even with the EG-TL incident during the Masters Cup, you can see the way in which TL and EG operate are different. Alex Garfield can get the job done, period. He can get it done. But in the process, he doesn't really seem to care about the polite or custom way to do things. Like Tyler said, AG probably knew in his mind that he should've talked to Manager Lee first, but he didn't. AG has had tons of experience in the field and I can't believe he doesn't even know this simple tradition. So it's just EG management that I slightly dislike, not so much the players.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves."
I knew I was forgetting something.
Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious..
FOR ESPORTS!!
Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up.
I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with.
But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is.
Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do.
Bring out the pitchforks!
You see this is the thing - if you don't UNDERSTAND why we are upset, why not admit you don't understand?
I mean, it is painfully difficult to not understand it when there's so many posts explaining their views, their opinions, and most importantly THEIR PRINCIPLES, but obviously it's still possible (whether because you didn't read it or chose to ignore it is irrelevant).
You don't decide what's a "big deal" and what isn't. I decide what's a big deal for me. TLO decides what's a big deal for him. Every single person does that. If so many of us consider it a big deal, then you coming here and telling us how it isn't and how we're all overreacting based on something you consider to be the objective truth (but really isn't) is beyond ridiculous.
This whole issue is ultimately a matter of personal standards and principles. You don't find it a big deal? That says enough about your personal standards and principles.
Nobody is pissed off at EG because it's EG, or because of any specific person in EG. One year ago, there was no bad sentiment towards EG in the community whatsoever. Between that time and now, they have done many things to change that, and people's opinion of EG changed to reflect that. It's all a consequence of their actions - not some declared witch-hunt you're imagining. The worst thing is that EG still doesn't get it or they pretend not to get it.
To me personally it's obvious that many people don't really understand the Starcraft community either (hence they don't understand why coach Lee is upset, why the Korean fans are upset, and why a lot of people on TL are upset). If you go look at all the threads related to this issue, you'll see absurd number of posts that say things like "well that's how things are done in football/basketball/soccer/counter-strike its perfectly normal" and consider it a catch-all argument - but guess what - THIS ISN'T football or basketball or soccer or counter-strike.
Try to understand the community and try to understand how things are different here and how many of us want to keep it different, and you might understand why this is a fairly big deal and why we feel so strongly about it. If you don't want to try, that's fine as well - just don't presume to tell others what should and shouldn't be a big deal for them. The same goes for EG if they don't want to become the poison brand of SC2 (even more than they are already).
People have all the right to be upset, but so far in various threads about this topic i've heard this is comparable to:
-evil businesses killing people with toxic waste -women being raped because the way they dress -ww2 ( this guy was taking the piss i pressume, but hey, it's the internet, you never know) - i didnt read the other 250 pages, so i'm sure there's more of these gems in there
Some other people are calling out to boycot EG's sponsors. I'm sure Intell, Monster and whoever else is sponsering them (and E-sports in general) are behind this masterplan of recruiting Puma without talking to his coach first.
Rooting for EG players apparantly is out of the question aswell: it's not like they actually have to do anything with it, but hey, they're all evil bastards right?
Let's say that again: They talked to Puma without talking to his coach first. alright it's disrespectfull to korean culture. but it is what it is, it's not the f*cking end of the world.
Everyone seems to be taking this moral high ground and portraying EG as this super evil company whilst they're all wearing there clothes made by 10 year olds who are nothing more then slaves, heathing there houses and driving there cars with products of these multinational supercompanies who are destroying the environment, etc....
For me personally, people should get some perspective. get off your high horse about shit that doesn't mean anything and show this same passion towards actual problems.
SC2 is an amazing game, and an even more so amazing spectator sport for me. But in the end, it's just a game. And unless your livelyhood depends on it, you don't need to go overly crazy about everything.
tldr: people are ok to be pissed off and what not. but in the grand scheme of things, isn't all this hassle abit over the top?
That bolded part in your post rubs me wrong in every way possible. What the fuck do you mean by it?
If your concern is with the issues you're bringing up than you should be yelling the loudest, because child exploitation and environmental disregard are morally wrong and are unscrupulous business practices, just as player poaching is.
If you do not care and think this is something not worth the attention it is getting, and you still don't get it after reading all the posts about it, man, don't post. Just stick to EG and faboy it out till the end of time. Trying to call people hypocrites in such a sloppy fashion is just trolling.
From the way EG defended themselves on a friendly medium it was clear that they tried to approach some teams first but didn't like the money they needed to fork out to get players that way, then they got the idea to start innocently "handing out business cards" directly to the players. This, to me, is disgusting. Any player that resigns the contract with such an establishment, IMO, is directly supporting this behavior and are disgust worthy themselves. Sponsors that support such teams should be also made aware what they are actually giving their money to, some of them I am sure would heavily object in being represented that way.
Poaching/headhunting is a natural part of eSports, professional sports, business, and life in general. Sponsors and people in general are aware of this and won't deem it disgusting or morally bankrupt like the extremely vocal minority does on TL forums.
Here it's not natural, it's not ethical, and it obviously isn't acceptable (can't you tell?)
If EG likes how it's done in other e-sports, they should stick to other e-sports. Or start a basketball team. But don't bring that attitude to Starcraft.
No... it's fine here. Swooping in and sniping personnel is acceptable so long as its legal. Puma wasn't even under a contract before he signed with EG... so what exactly are people mad about... that EG didn't contact TSL before signing a player that was not under contract?
On July 24 2011 03:21 Exley wrote: No... it's fine here.
How can you possibly claim that it's fine when you can see and read with your own eyes that it's not fine and it's not acceptable?
There are 3 threads about it. There is a translation of Korean reactions to it as well. Known players and managers have disagreed with the way it was done.
Go ahead and add up the numbers.
It might be fine for you, and you might only care about the legality of it - but the fact there's a massive outrage indicates that it's not fine here, it's not fine in Korea, and teams will probably be wise to think twice about pulling something like this in the future.
Because the minority is extremely vocal. And sponsors aren't going to care about a team offering a contract to an essentially unsigned player. And a western team has acquired one of the best players int he world, and this player now has a solid contract giving him stability. And the "massive outrage" has been generated largely by miscommunication rather than any wrongdoing.
On July 24 2011 03:41 Exley wrote: Because the minority is extremely vocal. And sponsors aren't going to care about a team offering a contract to an essentially unsigned player. And a western team has acquired one of the best players int he world, and this player now has a solid contract giving him stability. And the "massive outrage" has been generated largely by miscommunication rather than any wrongdoing.
It must be some vocal minority to make a 200 page thread in a couple of hours.
The massive outrage is not due to some honest mistake or due to miscommunication but due to intentional player poaching.
On July 24 2011 03:41 Exley wrote: Because the minority is extremely vocal. And sponsors aren't going to care about a team offering a contract to an essentially unsigned player. And a western team has acquired one of the best players int he world, and this player now has a solid contract giving him stability. And the "massive outrage" has been generated largely by miscommunication rather than any wrongdoing.
It must be some vocal minority to make a 200 page thread in a couple of hours.
The massive outrage is not due to some honest mistake or due to miscommunication but due to intentional player poaching.
The fact that the original blog post isn't even about the player poaching but instead the calling out a translator and that this got so far off topic so fast should speak volumes that this community cares pretty heavily about the subject.
Good luck finding any industry without intentional player poaching--- is there any other kind by the way?
For some reason people think buying players out is unethical/unacceptable when it's the other way around. It would be unfair to prohibit players from receiving better offers from different teams without the use of a contract. There was no contract, so Puma was free to receive better offers from EG. The fact that swooping in and buying valuable personnel is possible facilitates more money flowing into the sport.
The "outrage" has been created out of thin air by A) ignorant people, B) A pro voicing his opinion, being out of his element, and C) how conducive the TL forums are to generating artificial controversy.
On July 24 2011 04:11 Exley wrote: Good luck finding any industry without intentional player poaching--- is there any other kind by the way?
For some reason people think buying players out is unethical/unacceptable when it's the other way around. It would be unfair to prohibit players from receiving better offers from different teams without the use of a contract. There was no contract, so Puma was free to receive better offers from EG. The fact that swooping in and buying valuable personnel is possible facilitates more money flowing into the port.
The "outrage" has been created out of thin air by A) ignorant people, B) A pro voicing his opinion, being out of his element, and C) how conducive the TL forums are to generating artificial controversy.
I hope you're not just throwing words around, and that is why I'd really like to hear what is your definition of "artificial controversy" and how is that conductive to the TL forums. Please?
Also, how are people ignorant when they object to EG's conduct? What knowledge do we lack?
As for the contract part it has been covered so many times in this and the other threads that I will not even bother to repeat the obvious flaw in logic there.
On July 23 2011 04:18 JadedKnight wrote: I have to disagree with you TLO sorry. This is how professional sports team run (at least in America). If there is a player that's a free agent or on the waiver wire, other teams will try to snatch them up even without "caring about consequences towards third parties." EG had no responsibility to contact TSL regarding their attempt to acquire Puma IMHO!
It's hard for me to see this as the same as professional sports. In professional sports, there aren't players that play for a team for no contract. In Starcraft, there are. A free agent is a player without a team. PuMa is on a team. PuMa is something in the middle of a free agent and a contracted player, and therefore the system of acquiring said player becomes a lot more difficult.
On July 23 2011 05:41 Slasher wrote: I'm not fucking Zlasher.
LOL.
On July 23 2011 18:44 Usagi wrote: Cant help after reading all this about Milkis or not Milkis...
That given the standards and what he defended in WoC...
Milkis is as much asociated with TL as Puma was with TSL.
TSL gives practice and housing. TL gives a platform to get your word out and then go and do amazing things like spending the weekedn with MLG translating for the koreans.
ahhhh, double standards.
No.
Ahh. Manifest destiny. Can't believe there are actually a few people saying that TLO shouldn't be able to post this...his own opinion? whatttt?
And omg at the whole "we do this shit our way here, so of course we can just do the same anywhere else []korea[] har har har Uh-Mur-i-KA rulessss"
On July 23 2011 18:44 Usagi wrote: Cant help after reading all this about Milkis or not Milkis...
That given the standards and what he defended in WoC...
Milkis is as much asociated with TL as Puma was with TSL.
TSL gives practice and housing. TL gives a platform to get your word out and then go and do amazing things like spending the weekedn with MLG translating for the koreans.
ahhhh, double standards.
No.
Ahh. Manifest destiny. Can't believe there are actually a few people saying that TLO shouldn't be able to post this...his own opinion? whatttt?
And omg at the whole "we do this shit our way here, so of course we can just do the same anywhere else []korea[] har har har Uh-Mur-i-KA rulessss"
Thanks for adding to the discussion with a "No" this is the most well thought response I have had in a long while.
Great post Dario, also Beyonder pretty much nailed it. Also I like what Milkis said on WoC: "They have the supply and you are the one who wants something. So you will have to make them an offer and when you do it, it is expected that you do it in a very specific way". After Milkis said that, Alex and Wheat were speechless followed by an awkward silence of 5 seconds.
On July 24 2011 04:11 Exley wrote: Good luck finding any industry without intentional player poaching--- is there any other kind by the way?
For some reason people think buying players out is unethical/unacceptable when it's the other way around. It would be unfair to prohibit players from receiving better offers from different teams without the use of a contract. There was no contract, so Puma was free to receive better offers from EG. The fact that swooping in and buying valuable personnel is possible facilitates more money flowing into the port.
The "outrage" has been created out of thin air by A) ignorant people, B) A pro voicing his opinion, being out of his element, and C) how conducive the TL forums are to generating artificial controversy.
I hope you're not just throwing words around, and that is why I'd really like to hear what is your definition of "artificial controversy" and how is that conductive to the TL forums. Please?
Also, how are people ignorant when they object to EG's conduct? What knowledge do we lack?
As for the contract part it has been covered so many times in this and the other threads that I will not even bother to repeat the obvious flaw in logic there.
Artificial controversy is a hubbub created by the army of dramallamas that inhabit TL; thus, the TL forums are conducive to making controversy out of thin air.
People are ignorant because they are mistaken in thinking EG's conduct is unacceptable, since player-poaching is commonplace. Besides that, people are ignorant because they only read TLO's post and never took the time to learn about exactly what happened.
I dont think they should apologice in a one sided way.
I guess they have talked with him by now, and they will release some kind of joint explanation. Because coach Lee's action stirring up the drama was not acceptable either.
Oh, and Im sure if they talked things should be fine betwheen the parties, feels like a misscomunication that became internet drama.
On July 24 2011 04:11 Exley wrote: Good luck finding any industry without intentional player poaching--- is there any other kind by the way?
For some reason people think buying players out is unethical/unacceptable when it's the other way around. It would be unfair to prohibit players from receiving better offers from different teams without the use of a contract. There was no contract, so Puma was free to receive better offers from EG. The fact that swooping in and buying valuable personnel is possible facilitates more money flowing into the port.
The "outrage" has been created out of thin air by A) ignorant people, B) A pro voicing his opinion, being out of his element, and C) how conducive the TL forums are to generating artificial controversy.
I hope you're not just throwing words around, and that is why I'd really like to hear what is your definition of "artificial controversy" and how is that conductive to the TL forums. Please?
Also, how are people ignorant when they object to EG's conduct? What knowledge do we lack?
As for the contract part it has been covered so many times in this and the other threads that I will not even bother to repeat the obvious flaw in logic there.
Artificial controversy is a hubbub created by the army of dramallamas that inhabit TL; thus, the TL forums are conducive to making controversy out of thin air.
People are ignorant because they are mistaken in thinking EG's conduct is unacceptable, since player-poaching is commonplace. Besides that, people are ignorant because they only read TLO's post and never took the time to learn about exactly what happened.
In all threads regarding this subject I have seen many people that have genuine concern with the subject and have well developed and well articulated opinions which surely can be anything but a "hubbub". You can choose to take their points of view with more or less seriousness, or just disagree on principle, but dismissing them outright as "dramallamas" is.. well childish and immature, or just plain non-constructive in the least. If you decide to reply and join in the discussion you should try to contribute with something at least, otherwise what you say can be defined as "hubbub".
English is not my first language but I find your explanation why people are ignorant to be insufficient. I think it is arrogant on your part to presume that people haven't read more on the matter and that their opinions are based on the amount of gas they have passed in the last few days. It is obvious that EG's conduct IS unacceptable because so many people protest against it on the ground that "it is unacceptable". You could try to downplay the fact all you want but the sheer amount of posts is enough to prove this point I think.
And at the very end, your claim is very much like saying that it is always a "vocal minority" that is presenting their opinions, with the intent to imply that the "unvocal majority" is actually with the completely opposite impression on the matter at hand, which is in truth just a bunch of bullshit and a pitiful attempt to deflect and derail.
Ok first of all: sorry if I've been ignorant I really couldn't be bothered to read this whole damn thread to see where its going. (ill pay you to make a summary thread and keep it updated)(not not really but do it) I read until like page 20
Secondly: my own opinion on it
Is it just me but did it really feel like AG was attacking Milkis during WoC? I was saying to myself at the time 'not attacking your down right nukeing him'. Clearly AG plays terran.
I certainly think that EG took the wrong way to try and communicate with players. I've read that EG has been handing out cards to players, and that it was their idea of supporting ESPORTS, but are you really supporting ESPORTS if you cause such a shit storm after you try to recruit someone? I dont own a team, but if I did, I would have tried to build a relationship with the player and team like FXO did with fOu, and its said that fOu gladly released that player (his name escapes me) gladly and that there is like no bad blood between the teams at all (well team now). I certainly think that EG went about it the wrong way. Ok fine you hand out cards great, but to get into talks with a player behind a teams back is certainly well a little disrespectful of the team and coach, and while I havent heard what really went on between them, EG havent really been transparent about it either.
Granted they didnt post at 2am, and people who really expect them to have done it are well a little insane and impatient. Even if they did decide to make a public announcement at 2am, not everyone would have read it and wake up to a shit storm.
Personally I think AG really did go too far on WoC. He was really really forward and pressured Milkis for not contacting them and stuff, but do you really need to shoot the messenger? I dont believe a translator is a journalist, he isnt getting paid money and he isnt receiving anything in return (except for maybe fame ) so why should be held accountable for translating a article that someone else posted?
I think what TLO said was well put. Sounds a little hurt and unhappy but it was well put regardless.
One more thing: thank you TL community for generally not rageing and posting well thought posts, I still feel sorry for the mods to have to sift through 28 pages though xD
On July 24 2011 04:11 Exley wrote: Good luck finding any industry without intentional player poaching--- is there any other kind by the way?
But I don't want to find another "industry" because I don't care how it's done elsewhere (well I do, but that's not the subject here).
All I care about is teams that do it in Starcraft receiving a sufficient amount of public backlash so that they would avoid doing it in the future.
On July 24 2011 04:11 Exley wrote: For some reason people think buying players out is unethical/unacceptable when it's the other way around.
Well done on trying to instruct others on what moral standards should they adopt and what should they find ethical. I'm sure a lot of people will change their mind after having read your post.
If I say it's unethical, it means I find it unethical. I also find your stance to be wrong, and your grasp of ethics to be horrible. Which I'm sure means as much to you as your opinion of my opinion means to me.
So don't waste your time on that.
On July 24 2011 04:11 Exley wrote: The "outrage" has been created out of thin air by A) ignorant people, B) A pro voicing his opinion, being out of his element, and C) how conducive the TL forums are to generating artificial controversy.
Such a pointless inflammatory statement. You're in no position to pass judgement on other people, nor is that the topic here.
On July 23 2011 14:45 Apollo_Shards wrote: Can someone PM me on what happened with EGs CS team that was similar to this? And I agree with you TLO.
Why PM? This is history that people should know about.
Basically after the fall of CGS, participating teams lost their nice salaries and had to find new sponsors/re-sign agreements with old sponsors (because most teams lost sponsors when they made the decision to join CGS). Complexity CS was in this situation, and all Jason Lake asked was for some time to find sponsors - note that this is the man who put his money on the line for a LONG time to grow/support/build that team into a dominant championship-winning team.
AG's EG had a crapload of sponsors at that time because EG was the most stable organization to turn to when everyone else had jumped into CGS.
Also note that AG was JL's good friend at that time, and assistant manager on the CGS team - so he knew the situation Complexity were in and basically "offered his business card" (see what i did there?) to the CS team without JL ever knowing.
CS team accepts the offer, turns around and tells JL, "hey, we're going with EG". Conclusion: JL was hung out to dry with no team, and AG suddenly gets the #1 CS team in NA.
But I like IdrA, JWong, and Ricky Ortiz so much.. Why couldn't they be on a different team. :<
I hope this is just super biased or something. :/
It's pretty hard to not sound biased when describing what happened - it's pretty much exactly what went down.
On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote: And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves."
I knew I was forgetting something.
Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious..
FOR ESPORTS!!
Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up.
I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with.
But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is.
Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do.
Bring out the pitchforks!
You see this is the thing - if you don't UNDERSTAND why we are upset, why not admit you don't understand?
I mean, it is painfully difficult to not understand it when there's so many posts explaining their views, their opinions, and most importantly THEIR PRINCIPLES, but obviously it's still possible (whether because you didn't read it or chose to ignore it is irrelevant).
You don't decide what's a "big deal" and what isn't. I decide what's a big deal for me. TLO decides what's a big deal for him. Every single person does that. If so many of us consider it a big deal, then you coming here and telling us how it isn't and how we're all overreacting based on something you consider to be the objective truth (but really isn't) is beyond ridiculous.
This whole issue is ultimately a matter of personal standards and principles. You don't find it a big deal? That says enough about your personal standards and principles.
Nobody is pissed off at EG because it's EG, or because of any specific person in EG. One year ago, there was no bad sentiment towards EG in the community whatsoever. Between that time and now, they have done many things to change that, and people's opinion of EG changed to reflect that. It's all a consequence of their actions - not some declared witch-hunt you're imagining. The worst thing is that EG still doesn't get it or they pretend not to get it.
To me personally it's obvious that many people don't really understand the Starcraft community either (hence they don't understand why coach Lee is upset, why the Korean fans are upset, and why a lot of people on TL are upset). If you go look at all the threads related to this issue, you'll see absurd number of posts that say things like "well that's how things are done in football/basketball/soccer/counter-strike its perfectly normal" and consider it a catch-all argument - but guess what - THIS ISN'T football or basketball or soccer or counter-strike.
Try to understand the community and try to understand how things are different here and how many of us want to keep it different, and you might understand why this is a fairly big deal and why we feel so strongly about it. If you don't want to try, that's fine as well - just don't presume to tell others what should and shouldn't be a big deal for them. The same goes for EG if they don't want to become the poison brand of SC2 (even more than they are already).
People have all the right to be upset, but so far in various threads about this topic i've heard this is comparable to:
-evil businesses killing people with toxic waste -women being raped because the way they dress -ww2 ( this guy was taking the piss i pressume, but hey, it's the internet, you never know) - i didnt read the other 250 pages, so i'm sure there's more of these gems in there
Some other people are calling out to boycot EG's sponsors. I'm sure Intell, Monster and whoever else is sponsering them (and E-sports in general) are behind this masterplan of recruiting Puma without talking to his coach first.
Rooting for EG players apparantly is out of the question aswell: it's not like they actually have to do anything with it, but hey, they're all evil bastards right?
Let's say that again: They talked to Puma without talking to his coach first. alright it's disrespectfull to korean culture. but it is what it is, it's not the f*cking end of the world.
Everyone seems to be taking this moral high ground and portraying EG as this super evil company whilst they're all wearing there clothes made by 10 year olds who are nothing more then slaves, heathing there houses and driving there cars with products of these multinational supercompanies who are destroying the environment, etc....
For me personally, people should get some perspective. get off your high horse about shit that doesn't mean anything and show this same passion towards actual problems.
SC2 is an amazing game, and an even more so amazing spectator sport for me. But in the end, it's just a game. And unless your livelyhood depends on it, you don't need to go overly crazy about everything.
tldr: people are ok to be pissed off and what not. but in the grand scheme of things, isn't all this hassle abit over the top?
And who are you to dictate what people should take seriously and how they should take perspective on subjects?
I called you guys dramallamas because that's exactly what you are.
EG poached a player behind TSL's coaching staff when there was no legal protection. They violated no rules, and despite Tyler's insistence that EG and AG are liars, they haven't seemed to misinform on the topic at hand. After a brief miscommunication between TSL and EG, Milkis made a post and some tweets, TLO followed up with this blog, and suddenly a controversy was born.
It has since been blown out of proportion by the dramallamas who have made it into a question of ethics when it never needed to be. This is about legality and the infrastructure needed to prevent things like this from happening again. Many dramallamas have cited their personal dislike of EG members and past controversies; some have even called for sponsors to pull support from EG. Good luck with that.
EG did what many competitive teams/businesses/firms/people would do. Does EG have any regrets? Probably, but they also have one of the best players in the world on a contract.
You don't like it? Deal with it, because it's a fact of life that people make offers behind the backs of others, whether its ethical or not. Teams know this... sponsors know this... people with common sense know this.
Tyler used to call EG unprofessional in the way they do business and he did it way back in a SotG episode. And I honestly thought Tyler was being a hater and dismissed it, as time goes on it looks like Tyler is on the money.
On July 24 2011 06:50 Exley wrote: I called you guys dramallamas because that's exactly what you are.
EG poached a player behind TSL's coaching staff when there was no legal protection. They violated no rules, and despite Tyler's insistence that EG and AG are liars, they haven't seemed to misinform on the topic at hand. After a brief miscommunication between TSL and EG, Milkis made a post and some tweets, TLO followed up with this blog, and suddenly a controversy was born.
It has since been blown out of proportion by the dramallamas who have made it into a question of ethics when it never needed to be. This is about legality and the infrastructure needed to prevent things like this from happening again. Many dramallamas have cited their personal dislike of EG members and past controversies; some have even called for sponsors to pull support from EG. Good luck with that.
EG did what many competitive teams/businesses/firms/people would do. Does EG have any regrets? Probably, but they also have one of the best players in the world on a contract.
You don't like it? Deal with it, because it's a fact of life that people make offers behind the backs of others, whether its ethical or not. Teams know this... sponsors know this... people with common sense know this.
I will not go through the whole debate with you over again. If you wish to read up on my opinions on the issue you can easily find my posts. But from the reactions from teams and proplayers as well as fans in Korea and internationally it is obvious that people do not like this. And sponsors do care what fans like or dislike, and teams care what sponsors like or dislike. People with common sense know this.
I agree that there are scumbags that do awful things behind other people's backs and that is a fact of life. But embracing them and what they do is sad and shows personal lack of testicular fortitude, and there is no drama in that.
business is for businessmen, but I`m a just a fan and I feel like TLO and many others in this blog. EG did wrong in the first place and when everything became public they handled the whole situation wrong (again). How cant they see this has a huge effect?! Korean players might not be flying over to participate in foreign events, cuz their management fears for them to get stolen. And what about the PR damage. Example: TL has a Team and EG has a Team - both Teams have hardware sponsors and now guess whose teams Hardwaresponsor will sell more equipment. The one whose Team is loved in the community, or the one that is "not so loved" (to put it polite)? Math can be so easy... . In addition, don`t forget the longterm effect - once you have a fucked up image, it is almost impossible to lose it again.
On July 25 2011 12:11 Logginurkeyz wrote: blaming Milkis for bad PR by EG is like bombing for peace...
Really Milkis don't worry about EG. SirScoots has threatened to sue me over shit I've said over a stream while being under no contract to them because I talked about how shady EG does shit.
Keep your chin up! I really enjoyed the translation you did and don't let all this shit get you down. EG is a greedy team and they do some really shady shit behind the scenes. You're doing a great job bringing some of that out.
On July 25 2011 12:11 Logginurkeyz wrote: blaming Milkis for bad PR by EG is like bombing for peace...
... what? I think you used that saying a little wrong.
I agree with everything you say TLO. No one has really heard anything from EG except for what the kid was talking about on Weapon of Choice. You would think that they would have some kind of release about it.
On July 25 2011 12:11 Logginurkeyz wrote: blaming Milkis for bad PR by EG is like bombing for peace...
Really Milkis don't worry about EG. SirScoots has threatened to sue me over shit I've said over a stream while being under no contract to them because I talked about how shady EG does shit.
Keep your chin up! I really enjoyed the translation you did and don't let all this shit get you down. EG is a greedy team and they do some really shady shit behind the scenes. You're doing a great job bringing some of that out.
LOL please tell us more about what u said / the threat.
On July 25 2011 12:11 Logginurkeyz wrote: blaming Milkis for bad PR by EG is like bombing for peace...
Really Milkis don't worry about EG. SirScoots has threatened to sue me over shit I've said over a stream while being under no contract to them because I talked about how shady EG does shit.
Keep your chin up! I really enjoyed the translation you did and don't let all this shit get you down. EG is a greedy team and they do some really shady shit behind the scenes. You're doing a great job bringing some of that out.
LOL please tell us more about what u said / the threat.
HAHA what stream was that on? I want to see that vod :D
On July 23 2011 00:30 TheStonerer wrote: I doubt they have been apologetic like Tyler said, since Garfield clearly said in Weapon of Choice that if he could do it differently he said no, he wouldn't.
On the point of having a player in his team being recruiting by another organization, that point was addressed as well in Weapon of Choice.
I have one question Tyler, did you listen/watch the episode? Just want to know if i should point you to it for answers on some points of your post.
Yes of course I listened to it, but I also have listened to what AG and EG have said in public countless other times, and there have been countless lies and deceptions and mistruths. Perhaps I didn't point out how many points we have to distrust AG on in order to accept my read on the situations but that's a really tiresome process and people are just going to be split on siding with AG/EG if they're ignorant of their history of lies or siding with me if they trust me and/or aren't ignorant of their history of lies.
I was hoping to see some responses from you in this thread, and completely agree with everything you're saying. You're the freaking man.
On July 25 2011 12:11 Logginurkeyz wrote: blaming Milkis for bad PR by EG is like bombing for peace...
Really Milkis don't worry about EG. SirScoots has threatened to sue me over shit I've said over a stream while being under no contract to them because I talked about how shady EG does shit.
Keep your chin up! I really enjoyed the translation you did and don't let all this shit get you down. EG is a greedy team and they do some really shady shit behind the scenes. You're doing a great job bringing some of that out.
LOL please tell us more about what u said / the threat.
Seconded! Would add a little context to this understanding of EG.
EG hasnt chosent the most ethical path in this whole issue, however puma is human and he can make whatever decision he wants to. I am not happy with how the situation happened, but i am always happy to see a korean join a foreign team. He is a great player and i'm sure more good will come out of this than bad.
Wholeheartedly agree. Even insinuating negative things about Milkis was unfathomably stupid, from both a pr and an ethical perspective. Sir scoots is clearly not too good at the pr end of running a team. The funny thing is that EG's players seem to be nice guys that are actually really good at dealing with the community (Inc, machine, idra when he isn't on tl/loosing in a tourney). As always, <3 to TLO.
On July 23 2011 18:44 Usagi wrote: Cant help after reading all this about Milkis or not Milkis...
That given the standards and what he defended in WoC...
Milkis is as much asociated with TL as Puma was with TSL.
TSL gives practice and housing. TL gives a platform to get your word out and then go and do amazing things like spending the weekedn with MLG translating for the koreans.
ahhhh, double standards.
No.... Puma was on a team and Milkis translated something from PlayXP.... I don't see what you are trying to get at, but you obviously don't know the whole story.
EPT
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