EPTMy Thoughts on EG/Puma - Page 12
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
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Leafren
Belgium66 Posts
I thought the move itself was questionable. Then, WoC is used as some sort of EG propaganda channel to attack a key member of this community who just did his job. I guess it was to be expected, but it is unfortunate all neutrality is lost on WoC and affiliated shows for me. What a travesty. | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
While I did not see the forementioned WoC, I do get the gist that they attacked Milkis's behaviour. And resorting to ad hominem for any of your arguments is the most terrible thing one could do in my eyes. Seriously- in the past we actually did give a shit about contributors. | ||
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Lotar
132 Posts
On July 22 2011 20:14 Liquid`TLO wrote: EG keeps acting morally questionably, without really caring about consequences towards third parties. Meanwhile, some other teams have players with no contract and no salary practicing X hours a day and nobody seems to mind. How dare EG offer financial stability to a player without really caring about consequences towards third parties? | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On July 22 2011 23:20 Lotar wrote: Meanwhile, some other teams have players with no contract and no salary practicing X hours a day and nobody seems to mind. How dare EG offer financial stability to a player without really caring about consequences towards third parties? yeah, I wonder how did he won 50k$. | ||
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Southlight
United States11746 Posts
He could be making 50k + however much EG will pay him. | ||
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ElFuego
United States45 Posts
On July 22 2011 23:14 Zaros wrote: I think this whole affair shows quite the opposite and that the starcraft scene is rather blind to how business works. I think its unfair to blame milkis i would agree with that but the EG director was making a more broad point. Korea doesnt have sole rights on SC2, why should the international scene adhere to what the korean culture thinks is right. Korea should adapt to the rest of the world not the other way around if they are too stupid to contract their best player they deserve to lose him. I honestly am suprised and dissapointed at how much hate EG is getting for making a perfectly reasonable and fair business transaction. Im sorry if people think the world is honourable and all sunshine and rainbows but its not. So congratulations EG on picking up an awesome player and i hope to see him play in more foreign events . ^ This ^ Clearly if Esports are going to continue and grow then this sort of behavior will happen more and more. Honestly, if EG doesn't have to go through anyone but Puma in order to sign Puma then why should they take additional steps? If the players haven't signed a contract with a team there is absolutely no point in talking with the team instead of the player. That being said, good manners dictate that they eventually notify the team of their intent but there is nothing wrong with gauging the player's interest first. People on here just don't understand how sports teams work and believe it or not Esports are similar and will become more similar to real sports in that respect. | ||
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On July 22 2011 23:09 infinitestory wrote: I see there are a lot of people (in other threads perhaps) arguing that this is smart business practice by EG, and pointing out that contracting free agents like this must be OK because it's common in other sports. I heartily disagree. There is no comparison between eSports and other sports. On top of that, if this is the kind of "common sports practice" that businesses hope to bring to the Starcraft scene, then I hope that eSports stays as different as possible from mainstream sports. Sure, EG came out of this with PuMa, one of the strongest terrans in the scene, but the PR backlash is undeniable. We're not even seeing the brunt of it - I hear over in the Korean scene there is much more outrage. eSports dealings have traditionally been infused with a very high level of sportsmanship. Shady business like this, while legal, does no good for the atmosphere of SC. Compare the way EG dealt with TSL and the way FXO dealt with fOu. EG talks to PuMa directly (and apparently to other players as well, in hopes of goading just one top player into leaving their team). FXO builds up a strong relationship over time, and when fOu asks FXO to sponsor their team, a strong global cooperation is formed. I don't think this mindset is just the trappings of the old BW days which should be discarded. I think teams should head forward with a spirit of global cooperation rather than businesslike competition. EDIT: In any case, I think TLO has said it pretty brilliantly (albeit at some points a bit vindictively). I wholeheartedly agree with this. For the people who say "oh please, there was no contract, EG isn't wrong, Coach Lee should have had a contract" - First and foremost, if these korean teams were running under a utopian concept, is that not better than our jaded way? And to have a foreign team break in and do damage to their ideals, I do not doubt the korean netizens and SC2 progamers are more wary of foreign teams now. Especially EG - I can't imagine the koreans having a good view of EG at all in any way. I hope that they don't close themselves off, but I do not blame them for having a bad view of EG. On July 22 2011 23:20 Lotar wrote: Meanwhile, some other teams have players with no contract and no salary practicing X hours a day and nobody seems to mind. How dare EG offer financial stability to a player without really caring about consequences towards third parties? These people are working damn hard to GET sponsors and GET a salary. They are working as a team, giving up materials and time just to achieve it. To have a foreign entity come in and just stomp on that ideal without giving the team their due respect is just wrong. It's not even about talking to Coach Lee. It's about giving the entire team the heads up. | ||
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Vansetsu
United States1452 Posts
On July 22 2011 23:09 infinitestory wrote: I see there are a lot of people (in other threads perhaps) arguing that this is smart business practice by EG, and pointing out that contracting free agents like this must be OK because it's common in other sports. I heartily disagree. There is no comparison between eSports and other sports. On top of that, if this is the kind of "common sports practice" that businesses hope to bring to the Starcraft scene, then I hope that eSports stays as different as possible from mainstream sports. Sure, EG came out of this with PuMa, one of the strongest terrans in the scene, but the PR backlash is undeniable. We're not even seeing the brunt of it - I hear over in the Korean scene there is much more outrage. eSports dealings have traditionally been infused with a very high level of sportsmanship. Shady business like this, while legal, does no good for the atmosphere of SC. Compare the way EG dealt with TSL and the way FXO dealt with fOu. EG talks to PuMa directly (and apparently to other players as well, in hopes of goading just one top player into leaving their team). FXO builds up a strong relationship over time, and when fOu asks FXO to sponsor their team, a strong global cooperation is formed. I don't think this mindset is just the trappings of the old BW days which should be discarded. I think teams should head forward with a spirit of global cooperation rather than businesslike competition. EDIT: In any case, I think TLO has said it pretty brilliantly (albeit at some points a bit vindictively). 100% agree. In fact, I posted something just a little while ago, and I feel it actually makes more sense re-posting the majority of it it here, so forgive the reclyed text, but I think it fits better on topic here: I will simply say I won't support EG. People too often think that new enterprises have to develop in a classical model. I absolutely don't believe this. Furthermore, everything I've ever seen from EG, from it's decisions to it's players statements has been very passive-aggressive, usually done in bad taste, and morally unacceptable for me. And it just gets old in my opinion, among other things. Since myself, as an individual, won't support them, I will actually do my best to intelligently not support their sponsors. I say intelligently, because some of their sponsors actually also sponsor other great things, or great things in the community. When I look at e-sports as a product, I have to look at not just what I am getting but how I am getting it. Were my e-sports sneakers made by a 4 year old in a sweatshop? Geez, maybe I wont support that anymore. Harsh metaphor, but I'm tired and it makes the point. Of course, you can't have this ideology with everything, i.e. I'm not going to stop using my cellphone because it's impractical, even if people have to mine materials in horrible conditions to make them. The biggest point is, I'm going to try to support and or do what I think is right, mitigating the ethical damage the best I can... I would sincerely hope individuals as well companies or associations would take the same stance or philosophies. But again, just my opinion here and how I feel about things. EDIT: Nice to hear it from someone I would consider a "Pillar of the Community". The phrase gets thrown around a lot, and IMO, some of these other "Pillars" are a lot more like crumbling sandcastles in my eyes. | ||
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thebike
United States157 Posts
Now, all of this would have been somewhat OK if EG had just apologized for not realizing that they should have contacted the team first, but they continue to stand behind this idea that the blame is evenly distributed between the two teams (or perhaps not even 50/50, as AG said last night? I'm not sure whether he means that EG is more to blame or TSL is, but the latter would be totally ridiculous). Even though there was no legal obligation to contact TSL first, it was the right thing to do. TSL had given Puma shelter and food for ten months while he trained to become the player he is today. EG could have at least tried to contact the team before trying to poach him; at the very least, they could have apologized for doing what is obviously (and perhaps unintentionally) a disrespectful gesture towards TSL and the Korean scene. | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10349 Posts
On July 22 2011 23:26 ElFuego wrote: ^ This ^ Clearly if Esports are going to continue and grow then this sort of behavior will happen more and more. Honestly, if EG doesn't have to go through anyone but Puma in order to sign Puma then why should they take additional steps? If the players haven't signed a contract with a team there is absolutely no point in talking with the team instead of the player. That being said, good manners dictate that they eventually notify the team of their intent but there is nothing wrong with gauging the player's interest first. People on here just don't understand how sports teams work and believe it or not Esports are similar and will become more similar to real sports in that respect. Hurt myself biting my tongue when the original was posted. But to have someone quote it positively.... i cannot bear it! why should the international scene adhere to what the korean culture thinks is right. Korea should adapt to the rest of the world not the other way around if they are too stupid to contract their best player they deserve to lose him. such sad human beings populate the earth.Korea birthed esports and this is how you treat your mother. You are stealing from her purse. Calling her stupid for not locking it. And then saying sorry mom this is how the world is. Im sorry if people think the world is honourable and all sunshine and rainbows but its not. Im sorry there arn't more people that wish it was.Honor is a concept lost on business. Clearly if Esports are going to continue and grow then this sort of behavior will happen more and more. why do you have so little faith in humanity?dont you think something like team loyalty is commendable? If the players haven't signed a contract with a team there is absolutely no point in talking with the team instead of the player. except being a good and upfront organization and not getting flack from the community. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Crais
Canada2136 Posts
Edit: On July 22 2011 23:41 Torte de Lini wrote: I think the overall issue is that EG was late with a PR and then one came out without their submitted view, they came down hard on the messenger boy. Exactly. | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10349 Posts
On July 22 2011 23:41 Torte de Lini wrote: I think the overall issue is that EG was late with a PR and then one came out without their submitted view, they came down hard on the messenger boy. exactly. they should be sorry not aggressive. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
It's just a blame game. I'm surprised Puma isn't at all included in any issues. | ||
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Lotar
132 Posts
On July 22 2011 23:23 MrCon wrote: yeah, I wonder how did he won 50k$. Good thing he won that tournament too, otherwise he'd still have $0 in his wallet like all those other unpaid players which you don't hear about. And when those can't get to Code S, all they have left is the army. But hey, they're already used to live in baracks and sleep in bunk beds  On July 22 2011 23:41 Torte de Lini wrote: I think the overall issue is that EG was late with a PR and then one came out without their submitted view, they came down hard on the messenger boy. They haven't signed the guy yet, how early do you want them to announce that they did? | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10349 Posts
On July 22 2011 23:49 Torte de Lini wrote: Yes, a double exactly! Give me a medal! It's just a blame game. I'm surprised Puma isn't at all included in any issues. + Show Spoiler + If Puma said let me talk to my team about it then the first thing he said was im moving to EG he is to blame as much. Everyone should have agreed that 2 teams and 1 player needed to have a discussion. | ||
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crackcc
114 Posts
What we should take away from this : EG will do better next time by not trusting a young inexperienced kid with important news, taking less time to do damage control, and getting to know the culture/putting themselves in the others shoe so to speak - I think any team would have reacted the way Lee did ! Puma will know better next time, and will make better judgment calls @ the people he knows ( lee ) and how his community will react with their traditions and way of doing things. Lee will treat his players better ( he is allready giving them contracts ) and will contact the concerned parrties before criticizing them, or voicing his fustrations/anger towards a player or team publicly ! Together now ... FOR EEEEEEEEEEEE - SPORTS '' Think of the children .... Oh why wont anyone think of the children !'' EDIT : On July 22 2011 23:51 Lotar wrote: Good thing he won that tournament too, otherwise he'd still have $0 in his wallet like all those other unpaid players which you don't hear about. And when those can't get to Code S, all they have left is the army. But hey, they're already used to live in baracks and sleep in bunk beds . It is also possible that he may have felt pressured ( if only by his concience ) to give some/all his prize money as those two other players ( I forget who it was .. clide maybe ? ) had given back the money they recieved ( sort of a bonus if I understood well as they dont get a salary ) to help with their teams finances. Imagine that ! Im pretty sure their money combined was no where near as much as puma got from nasl so you can imagine what puma felt. Just imagine here you are in a house where youve all recieved pretty much the same training. The few who recieved money gave it back to help further their ''cause''. You win a butload of cash and you dont want to give any ... :o ... THIS IS TOTALLY HYPOTHETICAL ! But you have to admit its an interesting thought, the position he may have been in IF ... IF he didnt want to give any money back ! Since of course it was up to him ! | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On July 22 2011 23:51 Lotar wrote: Good thing he won that tournament too, otherwise he'd still have $0 in his wallet like all those other unpaid players which you don't hear about. They haven't signed the guy yet, how early do you want them to announce that they did? So? Puma still leaves TSL and the repercussion still occur. Blame PlayXP then, the translator does only what is written. There are no other duties but to accurately translate what is said. And if the idea that Puma wasn't signed yet is true and it is that simple or obvious, why wasn't it said several hours after the article released? If EG has a translator, why aren't they going after playxp? | ||
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TurpinOS
Canada1223 Posts
On July 22 2011 23:14 Zaros wrote: I think this whole affair shows quite the opposite and that the starcraft scene is rather blind to how business works. I think its unfair to blame milkis i would agree with that but the EG director was making a more broad point. Korea doesnt have sole rights on SC2, why should the international scene adhere to what the korean culture thinks is right. Korea should adapt to the rest of the world not the other way around if they are too stupid to contract their best player they deserve to lose him. I honestly am suprised and dissapointed at how much hate EG is getting for making a perfectly reasonable and fair business transaction. Im sorry if people think the world is honourable and all sunshine and rainbows but its not. So congratulations EG on picking up an awesome player and i hope to see him play in more foreign events . The fact that ''this is how business usually work'' doesnt change the fact that ESports is (I hope to believe) different from traditional sports, and people like me would like to believe that we can steer away from this ''how business usually is'' in order to make it a sport where business is not only about making money. As for your argument about Korea having sole rights on SC2, you are correct, they dont. BUT, BUT PuMa is a Korean, and was on a Korean team, so am I the only one who believes that, in this situation, it would have been the respectful and correct (and no, I havent said legal, I know what they did was legal) thing to do to contact TSL before going to talk to PuMa (and multiple other players), because its how it is in Korea. Im not talking about a US team going for a US player here, im talking about respecting other cultures and the way people do things over there if you go in that country (or in that instance get players from said country) It was a good business transaction, sure, it gets them exposure, but in the end it was handled quite terribly, but yeah sure it was legal and if thats all that matters to you, then Im not sure I want to be part of that ''esport'' that you describe. + Show Spoiler + And all this ''legal is not the only important thing'' coming to you from a law student........ Bolded part of your text made me laugh, I doubt anyone believes the world is totally honourable (as we could see from that recent EG/PuMa thing), but is it really too much to ask for a little bit of honour. To me, thats not even the biggest issue. The whole PR thing afterwards and the ''lets blame Milkis cause we fucked up'' is the big thing. | ||
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