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On July 23 2011 00:19 h-a-r-v wrote:
Tyler: I think Alex takes that into account. They've been running the team for long enough to know that. Would they be happy? Hell no. But I'm sure they know how it's like and probably that's why they have good relationships with their players as he talked about + keep them satisfied enough with their contract covenants. And I agree, was just about to reply that to TBO btw. - I would reserve some blame for Puma. The kid should have kept his mouth shut and let the team do the talking.
TBO: as above + yeah, EG might talk to the coach first but... Puma wasn't signed with TSL, thus he was deciding for himself in that case and his choice is all that matters here. The fact Koreans didn't sign anyone is their problem and apparently Puma didn't benefit from that and didn't feel bonded to them enough to send EG to the coach first when approached. We talk 'bout e-sports, not the Shaolin Temple. No one had to go to the master and talk about his disciple.
you are right about that, but then why shouldn't TSL not be allowed to break the news? They didn't sign any contract with EG to not do it. And a member of their team leaving definitely is legitmate news worth being put on news outlets, and because TSL has no contracts with EG there is absolutely no reason why EG should have any say in that.
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On July 23 2011 00:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:11 johanhar wrote:This is how sports work... if lets say a fotball player was under some team with no contract or salary, then it would be ok (in the "real" world of sports) to just contact the player directly  No, it's not. In sports, a free agent is known by everyone to be a free agent. In the SC2 scene, any player can decide for himself when he wants to be a free agent and he can tell as many or as few people as he wants. The solution is not just having a contract. The solution is having a contract and having a governing body to enforce some rules on how players and teams interact with each other. The whole contract discussion within this issue is irrelevant bullshit.
In conventional sports the public knows when a player is a free agent all at the same time. But player agents/teams etc know before anyone. Hell they even know before the player knows LOL. No but they know if a player is unhappy, if he is thinking of leaving for whatever reasons etc .. You ( the public ) only hears that someone is a free agent if he hasent found a deal that he wants to take. If he had you wouldnt hear that he is a free agent you would just hear '' such and such has gone from this club to this club '' We can only speculate how many weeks/months that player was wooed and all the deals that went on to make such a transfer/buyout.
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Great post TLO. I totally agree
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On July 23 2011 00:24 Pr0spect wrote:
I think I have to disagree on almost everything TLO and Tyler have said about the issue, and just to look at it from a business aspect it's TSL's fault for not having him signed? And obviously Puma wanted to leave it's not like they've kidnapped him by force like most seem to be implying.
You must understand, players in Korea have never before had to be signed to a contract in order to join a team. It is only recently since there has been more Korean/foreign team involvement that it has really become an issue.
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I doubt they have been apologetic like Tyler said, since Garfield clearly said in Weapon of Choice that if he could do it differently he said no, he wouldn't.
On the point of having a player in his team being recruiting by another organization, that point was addressed as well in Weapon of Choice.
I have one question Tyler, did you listen/watch the episode? Just want to know if i should point you to it for answers on some points of your post.
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On July 23 2011 00:23 Mycl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:20 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On July 23 2011 00:16 Mycl wrote:On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I don't think Alex Garfield would be perfectly ok if another team was recruiting an EG player without Scott Smith (SirScoots) knowing about it. Presumably Garfield would blame Smith for not having a tight enough leash on his players. I suppose Garfield would claim that he would have no ill feelings toward the recruiting team but I find that hard to believe. He knows what a manager's role is, no matter if it's Korean culture or American culture. He knows that when a manager gets bypassed, things have gotten fucked up. You can blame the manager and player, and you can also blame the recruiter who knows exactly what he's doing when bypassing the manager.
In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught.
I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team. Good to see you are so informed in the inner workings of the TSL team that your aware of the discussions between Puma, his team mates and his coach. Can we get a transcript? What the fuck is this? If you doubt something I said, point it out. If you're trying to write a joke, it's not funny. You just come off as an ignorant asshole. My comments are more directed when you went off on a tangent talking about what Puma SHOULD have said to his coach. Maybe as you say it he was a man and stood up and said I am quitting to join up with a foreigner team of my choice
Puma gets an EG business card from Alex Garfield. He goes and talks to EG about it. Right then, I know he hasn't done what I said he should have done. The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it.
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On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I don't think Alex Garfield would be perfectly ok if another team was recruiting an EG player without Scott Smith (SirScoots) knowing about it. Presumably Garfield would blame Smith for not having a tight enough leash on his players. I suppose Garfield would claim that he would have no ill feelings toward the recruiting team but I find that hard to believe. He knows what a manager's role is, no matter if it's Korean culture or American culture. He knows that when a manager gets bypassed, things have gotten fucked up. You can blame the manager and player, and you can also blame the recruiter who knows exactly what he's doing when bypassing the manager.
In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught.
I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team.
The biggest thing I didn't understand was Alex kept talking about how from his point of view what EG did was fair and normal business practices. The truth is korea doesn't give two shits what his point of view about his business practices are, if the korean teams decided to shut EG out of any possible future negotiations for their players he can say he was fair until he is red in the face and it won't matter.
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TLO, I think you make great points and I wholeheartedly agree with you. I felt like AG was trying to skirt his responsibilities by laying the blame on Milkis and the community. EG looks bad no matter how one sees it.
Somewhat on a related note, I feel sorry for Demuslim that he's under contract with such a shady organization as EG  . I hope he can find a new team soon.
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Theres not much explanation as to what was done wrong. Just some name calling "evil" "immoral"..... I am dissapoint.
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On July 23 2011 00:30 TheStonerer wrote:
I doubt they have been apologetic like Tyler said, since Garfield clearly said in Weapon of Choice that if he could do it differently he said no, he wouldn't.
On the point of having a player in his team being recruiting by another organization, that point was addressed as well in Weapon of Choice.
I have one question Tyler, did you listen/watch the episode? Just want to know if i should point you to it for answers on some points of your post.
Yes of course I listened to it, but I also have listened to what AG and EG have said in public countless other times, and there have been countless lies and deceptions and mistruths. Perhaps I didn't point out how many points we have to distrust AG on in order to accept my read on the situations but that's a really tiresome process and people are just going to be split on siding with AG/EG if they're ignorant of their history of lies or siding with me if they trust me and/or aren't ignorant of their history of lies.
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On July 23 2011 00:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:23 Mycl wrote:On July 23 2011 00:20 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On July 23 2011 00:16 Mycl wrote:On July 23 2011 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I don't think Alex Garfield would be perfectly ok if another team was recruiting an EG player without Scott Smith (SirScoots) knowing about it. Presumably Garfield would blame Smith for not having a tight enough leash on his players. I suppose Garfield would claim that he would have no ill feelings toward the recruiting team but I find that hard to believe. He knows what a manager's role is, no matter if it's Korean culture or American culture. He knows that when a manager gets bypassed, things have gotten fucked up. You can blame the manager and player, and you can also blame the recruiter who knows exactly what he's doing when bypassing the manager.
In other words, I think it's bullshit when EG says that they didn't know that it would have been right to talk to TSL's manager first. They did the wrong thing and played dumb and got all apologetic when they got caught.
I also think PuMa should take some blame. He should have went to his manager and said "I want to try to work something out with these foreigner teams" and if he can't get a deal like MC and NaDa, then he should be a man and tell his manager that he wants to quit TSL and find a good foreigner team. And then he should talk to every foreigner team. Good to see you are so informed in the inner workings of the TSL team that your aware of the discussions between Puma, his team mates and his coach. Can we get a transcript? What the fuck is this? If you doubt something I said, point it out. If you're trying to write a joke, it's not funny. You just come off as an ignorant asshole. My comments are more directed when you went off on a tangent talking about what Puma SHOULD have said to his coach. Maybe as you say it he was a man and stood up and said I am quitting to join up with a foreigner team of my choice Puma gets an EG business card from Alex Garfield. He goes and talks to EG about it. Right then, I know he hasn't done what I said he should have done. The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it.
That would have been the ideal scenario and things would have worked out better for everyone in this situation if that's what he had done. Nevertheless Puma still talked to his manager before signing a contract and gave him the opportunity to counter the offer made by EG or to discuss the issue with EG themselves.
What occurred wasn't perfect but it also wasn't nearly as bad as people are making it out to be.
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Er, is TheButtonmen's linked post on the first page true? It seems to describe the situation very precisely, but I don't know where he got the information, etc.
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On July 23 2011 00:30 TheStonerer wrote:
I doubt they have been apologetic like Tyler said, since Garfield clearly said in Weapon of Choice that if he could do it differently he said no, he wouldn't.
On the point of having a player in his team being recruiting by another organization, that point was addressed as well in Weapon of Choice.
I have one question Tyler, did you listen/watch the episode? Just want to know if i should point you to it for answers on some points of your post.
Thats the thing what could they have done differently that wouldnt have resulted in TSL locking down their players with contracts ? It could only have been worse as Puma may still have wanted to leave making him breach his contract and making EG/Puma even worse.
Unfortunately this is the only way to buy a star player whether it be in Esports or just sports. I also think that koreans are hiding behind their culture to get away with certain things and keep korea pretty much safe from the things that are STANDARD for all other teams ! Its like the indians taking offence because someone took a player from them without paying a bribe to team/coach/staff/league etc as is customary for them.
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Also, it's not only Team Liquid that is coming out against EG's actions. Fnatic and FXOpen have come out against EG. I'm sure their are other teams that I have missed.
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I don't know where else to pose this question, but it seems this is the most active place to do it right now. What happens from here on in?
No matter how much we bitch and whine it looks like a done deal between EG and Puma, what I'm interested/worried in is how things go on from here. All the Korean teams aren't going to let this happen again, ever. The current top tier players may have some power, but what about the next generation of up and coming stars with no power, no chance at development unless they sign a contract with their respective team, a contract made rightly so out of fear of this poaching happening again.
I'll make myself clear that while I don't respect what EG did, it's perfectly legal. At the same time however, they've just garnered a lot of bad-will with the Korean community and if I know anything about Asian culture (I am Asian), we look out for our own. No matter how much PR or spin EG pull off, I can't imagine it having more weight than TSL's side of the story unless the facts that fall out are far, far beyond the pale. The thing I am worried about is the shitstorm that is hinted at brewing on the Korean side blowing over to encompass all foreign teams.
So where does it go from here? The aforementioned contracts could start out reasonable, but after? If anything I think EG has hastened the implementation of Kespa-like rules for SC2, something most of the teams have tried to avoid it would seem out of understanding borne between players, coaches and teams. It may push SC2 to become more 'professional' in Korea at least, but I can definitely imagine Kespa-rules regarding appearances in the Korean leagues at the very least, and perhaps understandable. Why? Because it'll probably be the only way to enforce contracts. Money is probably better in the foreign scene right now, and big star names with a bucket-load of skill may be confident enough to deal with being unable to play in Korean leagues, but there are not enough places on foreign teams for every Korean. So they sign contracts, so they become (for the sake of argument) GSL-exclusive. We're back to BW, either that or money in SC2 in Korea dries up and we're all the worse for it.
Admittedly that's quite a lot of, well, theory-crafting along worst-case scenarios, but I'm not the first person in this thread to mention "Korea closing off" and that's definitely how it see it going.
I guess this turned out more of a brain-dump and rant rather than replying to much -.-;;
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I have a hard time understanding how this would be a bad thing, me myself have followed eSports globally with the games that was global eSport-games unlike SC:BW that was really focused only in Korea, and SC2 is a global eSports game so it's a different ballgame, and I can't see how EG signing Puma to play for them as a bad thing or that they handled it that wrong? Puma was more or less a volunteer working for TSL he wasn't bound to anything except his moral codes, he gets an offer to be able to travel the world, attend more events, get more exposure globally and people blame him for accepting that offer?
I find blaming EG for this hard, I'd say touche for TSL for not legally signing their players?
And I'd like to see Puma on more international events rather than just see him playing in the GSL, so I'm all for this.
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On July 22 2011 20:40 Akilleus wrote:
I agree with you TLO, my favorite team is EG but unprofessional behavior like this really hurts the
growth of e-sports. In "real" sports this is not accepted at all. Not even in non professional low level divisions.
Oh come on, even in Mighty Ducks they did worse than this.
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On July 23 2011 00:30 EnderCraft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:24 Pr0spect wrote:
I think I have to disagree on almost everything TLO and Tyler have said about the issue, and just to look at it from a business aspect it's TSL's fault for not having him signed? And obviously Puma wanted to leave it's not like they've kidnapped him by force like most seem to be implying. You must understand, players in Korea have never before had to be signed to a contract in order to join a team. It is only recently since there has been more Korean/foreign team involvement that it has really become an issue.
I mean if they'd like to survive on a global market they should adapt, rather than the whole world adapting to them just cause of their "culture", I think that card have been played out by now.
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EPT
