|
This is kind of a late response but these things bothered me. I don't want to comment on whether I think EG did good or bad, but just on what Zlasher wrote, which was ridiculous.
On July 22 2011 21:40 Zlasher wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 21:27 turdburgler wrote:
you're going to argue that a computer based organisation in 2011 should adhere to a west coast 9-5. Should an organization adhere to West Coast 9-5? Yes, if the heads of the organization are on the West Coast
Not if it wants to remain competitive and control its PR in an internet run world. Any business will tell you this, and any business school will tell you this. The internet does not run in hours and days, but in seconds. And the news is the same way. They can do so if they want, but if they get negative PR for a late response, they have no one to blame but themselves. They cannot realistically expect everyone to wait for them patiently while a discussion is going, especially considering most of those discussions happen on Reddit or TeamLiquid.
On July 22 2011 21:40 Zlasher wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 21:27 zeru wrote:
How hard can it be to make a short post about it? FXO does it, sixjax does it. Actually, EG are the only ones who don't. Saying its obscene to blame EG for not releasing a statement for 20(?!?!) hours and then attacking milkis for not trying to get EG's side of the story when he actually did try to get their side of the story, now that is unacceptable. Long terrible post with little logic. EG didn't release a statement for 20 hours? Actually it was 14 hours, 7 of which a sane human being is asleep for. The next 7 hours would have been more improper considering that plans were set to appear on a more public platform AKA WoC. Want another sports example? Why would EG have felt the need to comment on a playxp article that clearly had a few errors, especially on a player that is still in free agent state, that still is not a member of their organization. Do the Yankees officials ever comment on the player they're about to sign? How about FC Barcelona, or Manchester United? Nobody ever comments on it until the deal is done.
As has been pointed out, SirScoots was up when this happened on his twitter. You are right that having it on a public venue such as Weapon of Choice is the best place for them. Here is where the problem lies:
Correct me if I am wrong, but when did EG let anyone know that they would be responding to this on Weapon of Choice? Did they just go on air on Weapon of Choice when they realized the next day how big of an issue it had become? Or did they let people know the day before, as soon as possible, that all of their questions would be addressed the next day?
I still think that they should have replied on TeamLiquid as soon as possible via the forum, but even if they choose not to, they should have let people know that they were going to respond at all, and when. The Yankees, FC Barcelona, and Manchester United, (I would hope), let people know when they are going to be making a press conference, so for example a news bulletin involving a Yankee player will say "X happened to player Y according our sources, the Yankees will be addressing this issue at 4 PM EDT." That way, people have some of the facts but they also know when to expect the rest of the facts. And if the news article has something wrong, they will also address the journalist or paper and tell them at least some of the things that are blatantly false, even if they wait till the press conference for the full news story.
Milkis wasn't contacted at all it seems. And teams comment on the status of players all the time. They will say "we are currently in negotiations with player Y, when we are finished with the negotiations we will let you know more." That wasn't don't either it seems.
Again, correct me if I am wrong about this, but it seems until the Weapon of Choice there was a lot of media silence on the side of EG. Media silence is not helpful to business organizations. I'm not taking a side, or making a moral statement here, I'm just pointing out that the way they run their PR is ineffective, purely from a business perspective.
|
On July 23 2011 01:12 Duka08 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:54 OpticalShot wrote:
LOL @ all the low-post trolls having their day in this thread behind "professional business and free agency in sports" talk. You know, I think TLO talked more about the EG's stance and attitude in WoC rather than whether Puma's move was legal/illegal.
It's okay. Keep it coming, you're making my day. This this this this this so much. Seriously the people that are still riding the "contracting/moral" stuff are saying the same shit a thousand other people have thought and said since the second it was released. Even Tyler said "ignoring the contract bullshit." Those are simply rules that haven't been formulated yet, but probably will be now. Who cares. Logistics. It's EG's constant PR fiascos and (eventual) handling of the situation that this whole thread is even about. Only one single time did TLO (in the OP) mention "EG approaching TSL", in a single sentence, and he simply said that's obviously how this got started, not whether or not it was right or wrong by any side.
Sensible people don't care about opinions of "stance" and "attitude". Its what you do and how you treat people in the world that matters. Thus the actual content of what was discussed in WoC is actually a more pertinent discussion.
|
They signed a FREE AGENT, one who had the option of talking with his staff, and didn't. Why should they care in the slightest what TSL has to say? They didn't steal, coerce, or do anything questionable, they signed someone who didn't have a contract. If anything, it was Puma's obligation to talk to the staff, since the only ties left are emotional ones, but by no means legal or financial.
|
|
|
Listening to EG's side of the story on WoC was not only heart breaking, but made me question the integrity of the team and management even more.
I really hope they get Puma out of all of this, because either way they have lost a really dedicated fan.
; ;
Thanks for your thoughts TLO.
|
On July 23 2011 01:15 Pr0spect wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 01:10 Duravi wrote:While it would be better for puma from a business standpoint if he did so to drive up his asking price, why should he have to (assuming that's what you're getting at)? He is not saying he has to, but doing that would clearly be in his best interest over just going to EG, since like you pointed out even if he ends up going to EG it will potentially be for a higher price. The point is EG basically took advantage of the fact that Puma didn't know any better and nobody advised him properly. Quite heavy statements there, so you're saying that you know for a fact that Puma lacks the ability to think for himself, and that he lacks the knowledge about anything involving this, and that he didn't get advised by anyone? I'd like to see some sources to back that up, rather than saying things you have no clue about just to put EG in a negative light.
He is a 19 year old kid who just got offered money from a foreign organization. There is a reason professional athletes in traditional sports use agents.
|
On July 23 2011 01:16 deathly rat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 01:12 Duka08 wrote:On July 23 2011 00:54 OpticalShot wrote:
LOL @ all the low-post trolls having their day in this thread behind "professional business and free agency in sports" talk. You know, I think TLO talked more about the EG's stance and attitude in WoC rather than whether Puma's move was legal/illegal.
It's okay. Keep it coming, you're making my day. This this this this this so much. Seriously the people that are still riding the "contracting/moral" stuff are saying the same shit a thousand other people have thought and said since the second it was released. Even Tyler said "ignoring the contract bullshit." Those are simply rules that haven't been formulated yet, but probably will be now. Who cares. Logistics. It's EG's constant PR fiascos and (eventual) handling of the situation that this whole thread is even about. Only one single time did TLO (in the OP) mention "EG approaching TSL", in a single sentence, and he simply said that's obviously how this got started, not whether or not it was right or wrong by any side. Sensible people don't care about opinions of "stance" and "attitude". Its what you do and how you treat people in the world that matters. Thus the actual content of what was discussed in WoC is actually a more pertinent discussion.
I can't tell if you just called me out or agreed with me. Your first two sentences are contradictory
|
On July 23 2011 01:12 Duka08 wrote:
Those are simply rules that haven't been formulated yet, but probably will be now.
I'm sorry, but aren't codified civil laws like 2000 years old now?
|
On July 23 2011 00:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it.
That's either naive or jealousy/hatred @ EG
I don't know what would you do as TSL manager if you get aproached like that .. but i would tell Alex to F OFF, then i tell the player nothing good there come back.
Maybe you can share your vision of what would you do as TSL manager ? Keep in mind your priority is the benefit of your team and not delivering sc2 stars to rich teams and keeping the scrubs for yourself :D
|
On July 23 2011 01:25 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 01:15 Pr0spect wrote:On July 23 2011 01:10 Duravi wrote:While it would be better for puma from a business standpoint if he did so to drive up his asking price, why should he have to (assuming that's what you're getting at)? He is not saying he has to, but doing that would clearly be in his best interest over just going to EG, since like you pointed out even if he ends up going to EG it will potentially be for a higher price. The point is EG basically took advantage of the fact that Puma didn't know any better and nobody advised him properly. Quite heavy statements there, so you're saying that you know for a fact that Puma lacks the ability to think for himself, and that he lacks the knowledge about anything involving this, and that he didn't get advised by anyone? I'd like to see some sources to back that up, rather than saying things you have no clue about just to put EG in a negative light. He is a 19 year old kid who just got offered money from a foreign organization. There is a reason professional athletes in traditional sports use agents.
So if you're just 19, you're a mindless drone obviously? so if you'd like to think for yourself at that age you need to get an agent otherwise you'll not survive in this cruel world.
|
On July 23 2011 01:28 DarkSider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it. That's either naive or jealousy/hatred @ EG I don't know what would you do as TSL manager if you get aproached like that .. but i would tell Alex to F OFF, then i tell the player nothing good there come back. Maybe you can share your vision of what would you do as TSL manager ? Keep in mind your priority is the benefit of your team and not delivering sc2 stars to rich teams and keeping the scrubs for yourself :D
I would negotiate a cost with EG to send Puma overseas. Like MC and Nada with SK.
Oh. I guess maybe EG's too cheap to do that.
|
On July 23 2011 01:28 DarkSider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it. That's either naive or jealousy/hatred @ EG I don't know what would you do as TSL manager if you get aproached like that .. but i would tell Alex to F OFF, then i tell the player nothing good there come back. Maybe you can share your vision of what would you do as TSL manager ? Keep in mind your priority is the benefit of your team and not delivering sc2 stars to rich teams and keeping the scrubs for yourself :D
So what if thats what happens, at least you will have done the correct thing first, and then youre free to talk it out with PuMa.
In any case I dont know why were still discussing that when its been established that this is just a small issue, the bigger thing (and the start of this blog) being how the situation was (badly) handled by EG
|
After reading the OP by Milkis I have to say that it seems like there should be information from both sides before going public, considering that a fair amount of people will hold the first position they here as an accurate statement. Something to consider for next time.
I don't know if this factored into it at all but I do agree with deathly rat in that a contract for Puma can be very beneficial. Puma should be free as he is not contracted (and even if he was) to talk to other teams to find out his value to make sure he is being valued by his team. I don't know if Korean teams work this way but I can promise you that nobody in the Western world would work in sports of any type without a contract. In sports your play determines whether you have a contract or not and with that contract you are promised certain things over the course of that contract. Because Puma has no contract with TSL he is not promised anything by that team and legally could be cut at any time without any possible recourse against the team. Also without a contract TSL has no right to control Puma. I am aware that TSL has said that they have provided food, a practice environment, have allowed Puma to stay in their house, and have allowed him to keep any money that he earns. A contract promises that all of this will continue the way it has without any problems, and a salary is guaranteed money that will be coming in.
It seems only logical that Puma would want a contract and salary and should be allowed to go with whomever is willing to give it to him.
Leaving me with one question. If you feel so strongly about Puma and you feel that he is being stolen from you, as far as I know he is still not under contract with EG, and I'm sure that no attempt to keep him has been made, why not go out and try and keep him?
TSL if you really want Puma on your team make sure he is happy with his situation and in the "talk" that supposedly occurred you should have tried to find out what it would take to keep Puma on TSL, and if he is worth it give it to him, and if you deem his price too high and someone else is willing to give it to him then you have no reason to complain.
Having your players under contract prevents any of this from happening and if you already have players on your team under contract(I don't know if this is true) then you were not doing everything to keep Puma and to western standards you did very little to nothing at all to keep Puma.
|
On July 23 2011 01:26 h-a-r-v wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 01:12 Duka08 wrote:
Those are simply rules that haven't been formulated yet, but probably will be now. I'm sorry, but aren't codified civil laws like 2000 years old now?
The fact of the matter is that without a sanctioning body with a set of rules, and without written contracts, those arguments can not be applied and the "business" will always win. It's unfortunate. I hate this kind of business just as much as the next guy. But it's life. They weren't in place, and in retrospect Coach Lee wishes he had signed something, even though in his mind the bond was already there, and more fundamentally important to him. But unfortunately that doesn't count, and now there will probably be a push for more regulations. I actually wonder what's going on in that SC2 Player's Association thing right now in Korea.
|
On July 23 2011 01:10 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +While it would be better for puma from a business standpoint if he did so to drive up his asking price, why should he have to (assuming that's what you're getting at)? He is not saying he has to, but doing that would clearly be in his best interest over just going to EG, since like you pointed out even if he ends up going to EG it will potentially be for a higher price. The point is EG basically took advantage of the fact that Puma didn't know any better and nobody advised him properly.
So what would you call TSL adding Puma at an even younger age, with no agent to advise him, and for presumably far less money??
|
On July 23 2011 01:29 Pr0spect wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 01:25 Duravi wrote:On July 23 2011 01:15 Pr0spect wrote:On July 23 2011 01:10 Duravi wrote:While it would be better for puma from a business standpoint if he did so to drive up his asking price, why should he have to (assuming that's what you're getting at)? He is not saying he has to, but doing that would clearly be in his best interest over just going to EG, since like you pointed out even if he ends up going to EG it will potentially be for a higher price. The point is EG basically took advantage of the fact that Puma didn't know any better and nobody advised him properly. Quite heavy statements there, so you're saying that you know for a fact that Puma lacks the ability to think for himself, and that he lacks the knowledge about anything involving this, and that he didn't get advised by anyone? I'd like to see some sources to back that up, rather than saying things you have no clue about just to put EG in a negative light. He is a 19 year old kid who just got offered money from a foreign organization. There is a reason professional athletes in traditional sports use agents. So if you're just 19, you're a mindless drone obviously? so if you'd like to think for yourself at that age you need to get an agent otherwise you'll not survive in this cruel world.
Correct. I doubt Puma is an expert in international esports business and PR. He could definitely have used the help of an agent.
|
When people like TLO and Tyler post their OPINION on this issue on these forums, it serves as a rallying point for the community.
You guys are entitled to your opinion on the situation, but to call EG unprofessional because of it or say that they should have behaved differently shows immaturity and nothing less. These two (and the rest of Team Liquid) have no idea what goes on behind the scenes with EG, and can only speculate like the rest of the droning masses. Certain things are facts, and I am not saying this whole subject is a big gray area, but when you are arguing about things like response time or saying that the lack of contact between the teams was the big problem you are most definitely taking the situation out of the whole context and arguing simple semantic issues to further a point.
Lets not turn this into a TL vs EG issue, which is what it seems TLO and Tyler at least are determined to do by such controversial posts.
*edited for a grammar error*
|
^
I would edit the ''ill probably get banned'' out or youll definately get banned.
People telling me that I live in an extraordinary world by trying to believe in honour between people yet they give me that crap that people should wait for both parties opinion on a question before putting the news out. Thats complete bullshit, im sorry but it doesnt work like that.
(and to top is all of they blame Milkis for that when he just translated a PLAYXP article, ridicule)
|
On July 23 2011 01:29 Pr0spect wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 01:25 Duravi wrote:On July 23 2011 01:15 Pr0spect wrote:On July 23 2011 01:10 Duravi wrote:While it would be better for puma from a business standpoint if he did so to drive up his asking price, why should he have to (assuming that's what you're getting at)? He is not saying he has to, but doing that would clearly be in his best interest over just going to EG, since like you pointed out even if he ends up going to EG it will potentially be for a higher price. The point is EG basically took advantage of the fact that Puma didn't know any better and nobody advised him properly. Quite heavy statements there, so you're saying that you know for a fact that Puma lacks the ability to think for himself, and that he lacks the knowledge about anything involving this, and that he didn't get advised by anyone? I'd like to see some sources to back that up, rather than saying things you have no clue about just to put EG in a negative light. He is a 19 year old kid who just got offered money from a foreign organization. There is a reason professional athletes in traditional sports use agents. So if you're just 19, you're a mindless drone obviously? so if you'd like to think for yourself at that age you need to get an agent otherwise you'll not survive in this cruel world.
A 19-year-old has very little perspective especially when it comes to business. You would be very naive to think otherwise. Hell, you can tell Puma was battling his demons. Lee had to approach him and ask him what the hell was going on. The guy was sulking constantly in the house and at GSTL. -_- PumA didn't have any confident in California. He kept this to himself and told EG he would talk to his manager about this. Lee had to get it out of him.
If I'm the manager I have no choice but to let him go regardless of contract or not. I don't want a player around who isn't happy and wants out. There is no reason to keep the player on board.
You don't need an agent per say, but it helps having someone to talk to. PumA had no one to confide to.
opticon,
no one is doing that -_- Lots of people don't like how EG handled the situation. Nothing more to it.
|
I haven't read all the reponses yet.
I can Understand you're point of view TLO, but honestly you have to remeber EG didn't blackmail this kid.
This is why I think Puma went and accepted to be a part of EG.
Puma just had a thorzain splash onto the foreign tournament scene. His reputation was that of being the top practice partner. Almost semi insulting if you consider youreself dedicated to being competetive.
The truth is, Puma as a person was given an opportunity, a chance to get the fame that you have TLO. A chance to be beloved by thousands of fans. Fans who are exited and charrish talent.
In Korean the Fan base is much more docile, less expressive. The rest of the world fans cheer at banshees killing probes.
Too me, I definetly disagree about you're views about Evil Genius "Stealing" Puma.
For a long time it was obvious they were trying to recruit a Korean player onto their team.
With loyalty and things along those lines coming into play. EG simply took a gamble.
They said, look we can work with you. Give you something you don't have. You can be a part of our team and we have unique opportunities for you.
How can you blame EG for taking a chance to tag a player?
I mean, the situation looks a little worst now because TSL has lost alot of players.
But let's be honest here. Any EG fan is happy for them.
Let me compare this to a sport.
You have a young player who plays in a tough league, and never really got alot of fanbase because around him is alot of amazing talent.
He and a few other of his talented peers join a foreign tournament across the ocean.
Finally his talents are fully shown in a series of flawless great matches.
Who woudn't expept this player to want to purpsue something EVERY Pro-esport player wishes.
Everyone wants to be recognized and have fans, everyone wantes to feel important.
I'm also gonna say I truly feel that the korean scene is much tougher to become a fan favortie then the foreign scene. I don't think he was misstreated with TSL but TSL feeling bitter about this is because they lost talent. Not because they lost a superstar. Off course losing a tournament winner is going to hurt.
But in life, in sports, the player has options and can pursue them. And who can blame them for making a tough choice. But in the end they made that choice because it is what they want!
Look at how many Korean players are loving and enjoying the foreign fanbase.
I bet alot of players would have loved to be offered such an amazing opportunity to leave korean and become a superstar in the rest of the world. Being in Korea is almost like being in the shadows.
Look at HuK, for a few months. No one heard much about him. He was strickly in Korea playing in the GSL. I was always looking for news on HuK but not much was around. Not many replays easily found....
But look at after Dreamhack, Homestory. All of a sudden after winning 2 foregin tournaments, HuK has reclaimed his title of Fan Favorite! And it even got bigger. He is even more beloved now by his fans, all because he attended tournaments we all saw being streamed. Because he made a splash in OUR scene.
What i'm trying to say is. I don't feel like Puma Leaving TSL is a bad thing. It's actually a good thing.
Off course break ups hurt, but when the new relationship offers everything you ever dreamed of...
How can you only look at the bad side?
Would you rather Puma decline his invitation and have less then 1/4 of the foreign appearences...
Would you rather Puma go back to korean and return where he was before. But another really good Korean Terran?
Or would you approve of him becoming a giant part of a giant team, to aim for new standards of play and competition in the foreign scene.
In life. Decisions don't come easy.
Here is a personal dilemma I have.
I've been seeing two girls as of late. One I met randomly we had a great week-end together.
The other I have known for a few months but only recently we started to meet and spend time together.
I like them both. They both also like me back. But for my mental health i'm not going to continue seeing the both of them.
When you have many opportunities in life. Because you have talent, how can you possibly never run into a situation where you have to make a tough choice.
Back too me, if I tell one of these girls I can't see them. Because I don't want to create something that I can't maintain. Will she be happy? Off course not. She is going to feel like the other girl stole me, like I sold her out.
But How can I act anyother way except bite the bullet? I want to choose the one... I like them both, but I like one more since I have known her more and spend more time with her.
In the End, anyone looking from the outside would say.
You should of stayed with XYZ for ABC reason.
Off course I was never in an actual relationship but I did sleep with one girl (TSL for example). So technically I have a "unspoken" loyalty to her, that we agreed to spend more time together because we had the beginings of a relationship.
But the following week, I went on a Date with a friend I was interested in. She is more my type and has alot to offer (EG + foreign scene).
Going on this date I knew if girl A(TSL) found out she would not be happy. Again someone looking at this from a business point of view would think, why start another relationship if you already have one.
But in my interests I wanted to try this new path, because it has alot to offer. So I started the relationship with Girl B (EG) and decided to cancel my relationship with Girl A (TSL) eventhough I had slept with Girl A many times and had seen her many times.
So in this situation I feel like, I had a tough choice to make, but ultimately you have to follow you're gut and choose a path and stick to it. Even if their are hearts being broken.
So in respect to Puma, he did what he wanted for his Heart. Even if he disapointed his old team, he did this for his aspirations and his dreams.
Who doens't want to be a well-paid progammer... Who doens't want to have a Idra Size fanbase?
I'm 100% sure this choice was Hard for Puma but he wasn't going to choose the path of regret and ignore a chance at pursuing his dreams.
So back to the main Blog.
TLO please understand, EG did nothing unethical here. Because that would be like saying I should of ignored my feelings for Girl B and stayed with Girl A just because then no one would be upset.
EG simply saw a sexy tall swedish blonde (Girl B) and just coudn't not follow their hearts and asked her on a date.
They went on a date and kissed, a few moments later it was clear to EG that even though hearts would be broken, life can't be fair to everyone, and having regrets is equally as painful as being heartbroken.
I for one Stand behind Puma, and EG. I'm sorry TSL for your loss.
But like Girl A, maybe next time you will be in my situation and you will have to choose between Man A and Man B. When that happens, you will realize that following you're feelings is always the best course of action (for you).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
