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On July 22 2011 20:29 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 20:24 edc wrote:On July 22 2011 20:22 TheButtonmen wrote:
Always glad to see the pros taking the time to interact with the community, disagree with you here but most importantly of all good luck at the WCG! What do you disagree with the OP? I'm just curious and would like to know. My thoughts can be found here, if you have any other questions shoot me a PM I don't really want to bring my arguments about this spilling over into TLO's blog.
On July 22 2011 20:54 crackcc wrote:
They are all to blame. EG, Puma, Lee !
EG : for not communicating with the coach before/after he went on a public rant.
Puma : for telling EG not to communicate with Lee, and that '' he would handle it ''.
EDIT : This for me is the worst of the 3 because he KNOWS what korean culture is like and KNOWS how his team/coach will feel, not to mention korean netizens. It seems like a bad call on his part.
Lee : for PUBLICLY ranting on EG/Puma without before getting in touch with EG
It seems not so long ago Team Liquid(Tyler) got angry at EG(incontrol) for just the same thing - EG had said/Ommited certain details PUBLICLY ( in TL forums ) and Tyler and others got mad that they went and did that publicly instead of first talking with them !
^ UPVOTE
v DOWNVOTE
If these are true then I don't think EG should get all the hate they are getting.
Although AG definitely handled the follow up situation poorly on Weapon of Choice.
On July 22 2011 19:41 Rekrul wrote:
Coach Lee is a hypocrite and a liar. The way he stole Fruitdealer and Tester from OGS in the past was far worse in terms of deceit, lack of business ethics, and backstabbing.
It's not my place to go into details, but all I can say is: Karma is a bitch.
And if this is true (which I don't seen Rekrul having a reason to lie about this) that is amusing to say the least.
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On July 23 2011 00:38 ptbl wrote:
Also, it's not only Team Liquid that is coming out against EG's actions. Fnatic and FXOpen have come out against EG. I'm sure their are other teams that I have missed.
Does anyone have any proof to back up this statement? There are a lot of wild claims involved with this story and at this point I am only trusting direct quotes.
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Totally agree with TLO and TSL on this one. Has EG even released a public statement yet? If so, where's the article? (I wasn't able to tune into Weapon of Choice T.T)
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On July 23 2011 02:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:38 ptbl wrote:
Also, it's not only Team Liquid that is coming out against EG's actions. Fnatic and FXOpen have come out against EG. I'm sure their are other teams that I have missed. Does anyone have any proof to back up this statement? There are a lot of wild claims involved with this story and at this point I am only trusting direct quotes.
Didn't see fnatics response but FXOpen responded in this thread expressing similar feelings. Don't know if it's the official account though. (Ctrl+f FXOpen)
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On July 23 2011 02:26 AzureD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 21:43 ComaDose wrote:Its well that you blogged in addition to posting in the thread. I know I gave up on that thread a long time ago. If they want to play the bad boys, they should at least be able to deal with the criticism, however EG seems to demand high morale standard from everyone but themselves. Its pretty much about this. They KNOW they were doing something wrong. Or they are VERY stupid. Then when people are like "hey you guys!" they are like "common stop hating". What they did is wrong. It doesn't matter if you don't like coach lee. A crime is a crime a foul is a foul and approaching a team member without talking to the team is a big foul. Quite frankly i don't care about it too much but EG's reaction is making me like them less. A community like starcraft would have reacted better to immediate insincere apologies than lies and delays. With all due respect I completely disagree. No reason to approach a free agent to what team he is currently on first at all. Puma is not TSL's slave. They could have told TSL afterwards but it wouldn't have changed anything. Puma was free to tell his team he was going to switch at any time but did not say anything and EG never gave any orders to keep it a secret AFAIK. Why should Puma have all that much loyalty to his team anyway when he has barely spent that much time with them? Team swaps should be talked out between team managers? Who made that rule?
courtesy made that rule. It is generally understood and has been for a decade. "EG didn't give any orders to keep it secret." what is the purpose of this sentence. why are you quoting me from like 10 pages back? Puma should have loyalty to his team because he should be an honorable person.
Not talking about a player changing teams with the team is a foul.
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EG did no wrong IMO. They played to win, just like the Korean's do.
Korean's should stop using peer pressure to keep player on teams that make no money and have no future. Puma doesn't owe TSL anything..... he got to play at their house, and in exchange he represented them before an audience of 85k people.
All you "do-gooders" out there would create an environment for players where they have no financial future. Where teams and coaches can lock up players for simply food, water and wifi. EG is creating a market for players, and that is what will help make western e-sport truly professional.
Korean's (God love them) are so loyal and so hard working, that coaches and manager can literally exploit kids for free for years at a time, I think this happens all over the world, but in Korea we have even seen ugly sexual exploitation going on at a team house. This wouldn't happen if players were not so desperate, and EG has helped to reverse that trend.
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Thanks TLO. As many before, you managed to express my thoughts exacty.
I also agree with you in thanking you're Liquid. A team with more professionalism.
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On July 23 2011 02:34 dsousa wrote:
EG did no wrong IMO. They played to win, just like the Korean's do.
Korean's should stop using peer pressure to keep player on teams that make no money and have no future. Puma doesn't owe TSL anything..... he got to play at their house, and in exchange he represented them before an audience of 85k people.
All you "do-gooders" out there would create an environment for players where they have no financial future. Where teams and coaches can lock up players for simply food, water and wifi. EG is creating a market for players, and that is what will help make western e-sport truly professional.
Korean's (God love them) are so loyal and so hard working, that coaches and manager can literally exploit kids for free for years at a time, I think this happens all over the world, but in Korea we have even seen ugly sexual exploitation going on at a team house. This wouldn't happen if players were not so desperate, and EG has helped to reverse that trend.
now this, THIS, actually strikes a valid chord with me.
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He wasn't contracted, so it's only cultural/moral issue and i personaly don't care, because Puma wants to go to EG, EG wants Puma, and TSL have no money/will to pay Puma, and in e-sports busines (an any other) that's how things work.
Sure they could be nice and talk to coach before contacting player, but they absolutely didn't have to. It's only a matter of being polite, and since when we expact companies to be that way lol?
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TLO and Tyler <3
Once again you make me so proud for supporting the team with people who are honest, responsible and actually care about Starcraft and the community instead of a team blindly following "business interests" and not giving a fuck about anything or anyone else.
Thanks for being the voice for the part of community that still cares and doesn't want all the corporate bullshit in Starcraft.
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On July 23 2011 02:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:38 ptbl wrote:
Also, it's not only Team Liquid that is coming out against EG's actions. Fnatic and FXOpen have come out against EG. I'm sure their are other teams that I have missed. Does anyone have any proof to back up this statement? There are a lot of wild claims involved with this story and at this point I am only trusting direct quotes.
Fnatic's manager Xeris made a post in the original thread, here it is.
On July 21 2011 16:49 Xeris wrote:
Alex Garfield of EG talked to a lot of players at NASL, he approached Sen for example. I don't think it's particularly wrong for a conversation to take place, especially when you're at an event and just socializing with people... but it's more about actually putting a deal in place without going through the proper channels that it becomes wrong in my opinion.
For example, I have no problem talking to players (let's say DIMAGA) and saying "hey I'm wondering if you'd be interested in joining Fnatic." But knowing that he's a player on a team, that's really where the conversation needs to end. Anything further becomes a disrespect to the actual team and the whole idea of esports.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=245970¤tpage=65#1289
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My question for people more involved in the issue than I am is do you disagree with EG trying to poach Koreans or simply the way they did it?
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I agree with TLO and this was also my thoughts when i posted in the other thread.
I think that the original Puma-EG incident was probably down to misunderstanding and slight mishandling of the situation which should not be a big deal if subsequently handled correctly. But EGs handling the situation was a complete PR disaster.
First PR mistake
They took like 18 hours to respond to the incident, despite efforts being made to contact EG people such as sirscoots. In that time, coach Lee manage to give an update of the incident and even Incontrol manage to make a joke about it on twitter, but only silence from EG management.
2nd bigger PR mistake
They decided to have a response on a semi- EG friendly show where they pit AG, executive director of EG against Milkis. At first, AG explain the situation well but instead of trying to learn from this incident and try to be more sensitive and understanding, somehow try to justify their actions by western e sports standard (which is extremely low btw) and in the end somehow manage to passive-aggressively insinuate that Milkis is somehow to blame for the shit that EG is getting?!
Other teams manage to aquire Korean players/team without any incident but somehow EG manage to turn this into a circus.
I think a few things can be learned from this incident:
1) Its no coincidence that 4 players left TSL to join other teams. If you leave your front door wide open, dont be surprise that others will come for easy picking. It looks like TSL and the Korean player association are meeting to fix this but I just hope that they don't overeact.
2)EG is in charged of their own image/PR. You know that an organisation seriously lacks PR skills when their managing director starts insinuating that a translator is too blame for their image problems. Look at FXO, they have some controversial issues in the past but you will see Boss, Unstable, Frequency.. quickly try to clear things up and engage/explain their stands to the community.
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Thank god TLO is a god among men and stepped up and made this point. Couldn't have said it better myself. TLO FIGHTING!!
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On July 23 2011 02:34 dsousa wrote:
EG did no wrong IMO. They played to win, just like the Korean's do.
Korean's should stop using peer pressure to keep player on teams that make no money and have no future. Puma doesn't owe TSL anything..... he got to play at their house, and in exchange he represented them before an audience of 85k people.
All you "do-gooders" out there would create an environment for players where they have no financial future. Where teams and coaches can lock up players for simply food, water and wifi. EG is creating a market for players, and that is what will help make western e-sport truly professional.
Korean's (God love them) are so loyal and so hard working, that coaches and manager can literally exploit kids for free for years at a time, I think this happens all over the world, but in Korea we have even seen ugly sexual exploitation going on at a team house. This wouldn't happen if players were not so desperate, and EG has helped to reverse that trend.
I have to agree in some way with this statement. We don't know how the offer was presented to Puma(it could have simply been, "you won, we have a slot open and its there if you want it'), but I don't know how AG could have presented the offer to TSL without there being some sort of issue.
And how can we be upset about the winner of NASL being offered more money for the great entertainment he gave us? He is a young kid and how can we be upset that he could be joining a team that can provide him with money, living space, travel and the ability to practice. Hell, he could even pick up a second language(if he doesnt already speak english) while he is at it?
He is a young kid and I can't be upset that he is got an offer to be paid more. If not, he should be back in school, rather than living in a room with with 6 other boys, food, water and internet. And lets not even talk about when those team houses go the extreamly dark route(ie, sexual exploitation).
That being said, AG has a bad habit of leaving his players out there for the community. EGIncontrol was raked over the coals for the SotG-nonsense. EG needs to get better about getting infront of these things. He needs someone to do PR for him if this stuff happens. We dont need an instant response, but one is needed.
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On July 23 2011 02:08 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 02:03 Duka08 wrote:On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote:
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves." I knew I was forgetting something. Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious.. FOR ESPORTS!!
Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up.
I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with.
But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is.
Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do.
Bring out the pitchforks!
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On July 23 2011 02:51 echO [W] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 02:29 Plansix wrote:On July 23 2011 00:38 ptbl wrote:
Also, it's not only Team Liquid that is coming out against EG's actions. Fnatic and FXOpen have come out against EG. I'm sure their are other teams that I have missed. Does anyone have any proof to back up this statement? There are a lot of wild claims involved with this story and at this point I am only trusting direct quotes. Fnatic's manager Xeris made a post in the original thread, here it is. Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 16:49 Xeris wrote:
Alex Garfield of EG talked to a lot of players at NASL, he approached Sen for example. I don't think it's particularly wrong for a conversation to take place, especially when you're at an event and just socializing with people... but it's more about actually putting a deal in place without going through the proper channels that it becomes wrong in my opinion.
For example, I have no problem talking to players (let's say DIMAGA) and saying "hey I'm wondering if you'd be interested in joining Fnatic." But knowing that he's a player on a team, that's really where the conversation needs to end. Anything further becomes a disrespect to the actual team and the whole idea of esports. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=245970¤tpage=65#1289
Thats good to know. Do we know if the conversation was anything beyond "Well Puma, we have an open slot on EG. Its yours if you want it."?
And do we know what Puma wanted? Did he want to tell coach Lee himself?
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On July 23 2011 02:29 ClysmiC wrote:
Totally agree with TLO and TSL on this one. Has EG even released a public statement yet? If so, where's the article? (I wasn't able to tune into Weapon of Choice T.T)
congratz, most contradictory statement yet
The WoC episode was their official statement "we approached a player, player wanted to talk to coach before we did, player not yet signed"
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On July 23 2011 03:01 Tranqje wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 02:08 Beyonder wrote:On July 23 2011 02:03 Duka08 wrote:On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote:
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves." I knew I was forgetting something. Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious.. FOR ESPORTS!! Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up. I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with. But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is. Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do. Bring out the pitchforks!
Oh trust me, I didnt understand the shitstorm there either haha, it was such a small thing  But their approach to the situation is directly contradictory to their approach on this one, which makes it funny.
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You'd think after all of this they would learn some better PR lol. But they never cease to amaze.
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EPT
