EPTMy Thoughts on EG/Puma - Page 19
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QuasarStarcraft
United States46 Posts
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Nexic
United States729 Posts
On July 23 2011 03:04 Plansix wrote: Dumb question lol, obviously it went beyond that since they signed him without TSL knowing anything (the "actual team" Xeris' post refers to).Thats good to know. Do we know if the conversation was anything beyond "Well Puma, we have an open slot on EG. Its yours if you want it."? And do we know what Puma wanted? Did he want to tell coach Lee himself? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 23 2011 03:05 Ingebrigtsen wrote: congratz, most contradictory statement yet The WoC episode was their official statement "we approached a player, player wanted to talk to coach before we did, player not yet signed" Player talked with Coach and sort of made up his mind, Coach went and made a public statement(in another language), shitstorm Somewhere in there the adults should have called eachother. | ||
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Ingebrigtsen
Norway343 Posts
On July 23 2011 02:54 Raysalis wrote: I agree with TLO and this was also my thoughts when i posted in the other thread. I think that the original Puma-EG incident was probably down to misunderstanding and slight mishandling of the situation which should not be a big deal if subsequently handled correctly. But EGs handling the situation was a complete PR disaster. First PR mistake They took like 18 hours to respond to the incident, despite efforts being made to contact EG people such as sirscoots. In that time, coach Lee manage to give an update of the incident and even Incontrol manage to make a joke about it on twitter, but only silence from EG management. 2nd bigger PR mistake They decided to have a response on a semi- EG friendly show where they pit AG, executive director of EG against Milkis. At first, AG explain the situation well but instead of trying to learn from this incident and try to be more sensitive and understanding, somehow try to justify their actions by western e sports standard (which is extremely low btw) and in the end somehow manage to passive-aggressively insinuate that Milkis is somehow to blame for the shit that EG is getting?! Other teams manage to aquire Korean players/team without any incident but somehow EG manage to turn this into a circus. I think a few things can be learned from this incident: 1) Its no coincidence that 4 players left TSL to join other teams. If you leave your front door wide open, dont be surprise that others will come for easy picking. It looks like TSL and the Korean player association are meeting to fix this but I just hope that they don't overeact. 2)EG is in charged of their own image/PR. You know that an organisation seriously lacks PR skills when their managing director starts insinuating that a translator is too blame for their image problems. Look at FXO, they have some controversial issues in the past but you will see Boss, Unstable, Frequency.. quickly try to clear things up and engage/explain their stands to the community. wrong, and more wrong slasher has said this forever. 1. It was the middle of the night when the news broke, people were sleeping... 18 hours isn't that long in the world of announcments. 2. what other show were they to go on??? is there a magical thursday night show I dont know about? and if there is, do they get the same exposure as WoC. Please....PLEASE get more educated about the situation before you comment. | ||
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butter
United States785 Posts
On July 23 2011 00:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I didn't hear Alex take it into account when he was on WoC. The impression I got was like I said: purposely do the wrong thing for your own benefit, get caught, feign ignorance, apologize. It's either that or, if you want to believe everything he says: do a thing you think is acceptable, find out it's not acceptable, apologize. The read on the situation depends on whether you think Alex knew beforehand that what he was doing wasn't proper. I think he did know. I'm not sure this can even be called feigning ignorance. I just listened to WoC, and AG said that EG had already talked to other Korean teams about acquiring players. When those teams made it clear that it would be prohibitively expensive for EG to buy their players, EG gave up that path and instead decided to talk to the individual players (e.g. Puma) directly. What is even left for EG to pretend to be ignorant about? Rather than a deception, I got the impression that AG honestly thinks the only proper way to do business is to be kind of a dick. (The next step in this model is when people get upset in public, you sometimes have to apologize even though you don't feel like you did anything wrong.) Edit: I'm not trying to be judgmental. | ||
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QuasarStarcraft
United States46 Posts
On July 23 2011 03:11 Nexic wrote: Dumb question lol, obviously it went beyond that since they signed him without TSL knowing anything (the "actual team" Xeris' post refers to). EG had not yet signed Puma by the time WoC came on as AG had referenced on the show if TSL wanted to they could still try to keep Puma | ||
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Fishriot
United States621 Posts
Listening to Milkis be attacked on WoC was absolutely disgusting. To paraphrase something I saw on twitter last night, translating a book does not make you an author, and translating an article does not make you a journalist. Alex Garfield's handling of the situation was down right horrible, and him trying to shove the blame everywhere but on himself makes me dislike EG even more than after the SotG incident. Saying nothing but obvious corporate spin on a show that is backed by your company with an obviously bias "moderator" just makes you look bad. Pathetic, actually. | ||
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Arkan
Canada78 Posts
Manager Lee states that he respects the players decision, but then releases statements showing his disappointment with everything. If he truly feels that TSL is losing out by releasing Puma then why didnt he make a counter-offer to possibly sway the decision? Im sorry folks, but TSL has no one to blame but their managment. Simply having players on teams based on "trust and faith" is not possible in any other professional sport and doesnt make it applicable in esports either. I seriously hope the Korean SC2 overhaul their recruitment process so we dont have to see any of this drama in the future. | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
On July 23 2011 03:12 Ingebrigtsen wrote: slasher has said this forever. you are the 4th guy who confuses slasher and zlasher in this topic... | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
Real business and real sports don't mess around like that. They keep their shit together and do it right. Unfortunately people have this ignorant perception that sports and business is just a bunch of competition, and that competition justifies non-professionalism. Welcome to the real world folks, EG, businesses, teams, you, everyone, We all have to actually follow the fucking rules and give our counterparts proper respect. | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1403 Posts
On July 23 2011 00:35 Z3kk wrote: Er, is TheButtonmen's linked post on the first page true? It seems to describe the situation very precisely, but I don't know where he got the information, etc. It's as accurate as I could make it, sources are the original translated article, the follow up interview posted on Redit, AG's statements on WoC and Xeries comments about EGs recruitment offers at NASL finals. I have no supporting statements for me eating the orange though, you're going to need to take my word for that.  (This is what he is referencing) On July 23 2011 03:12 Ingebrigtsen wrote: wrong, and more wrong slasher has said this forever. 1. It was the middle of the night when the news broke, people were sleeping... 18 hours isn't that long in the world of announcments. 2. what other show were they to go on??? is there a magical thursday night show I dont know about? and if there is, do they get the same exposure as WoC. Please....PLEASE get more educated about the situation before you comment. Zlasher != Slasher. Don't tell other people to get more educated about the situation when you can't even tell who's involved.... On July 23 2011 03:11 Nexic wrote: Dumb question lol, obviously it went beyond that since they signed him without TSL knowing anything (the "actual team" Xeris' post refers to). Puma has signed nothing with EG. EG did not go and sign him without telling his coach. Puma requested that EG let him be the one to tell his coach about the offer EG made. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On July 23 2011 03:01 Tranqje wrote: Yeh man, that shit was so real. TL asked for accomodation EG wasn't prepared to give, therefore, TL didn't want to participate, so they said just that. I still don't get the shitstorm that brought up. I don't get this one either. Obviously you 'TL-guys' are biased, wich is normal and i'm fine with. But no matter what happens and eg is involved and there everyone is jumping on the wagon and making it a superhuge deal, wich it really never is. Need some more hating i guess. I highly doubt anyone here knows exaclty how everything went down without anyone of you actually being there, but it sure sounds like you all do. Bring out the pitchforks! You see this is the thing - if you don't UNDERSTAND why we are upset, why not admit you don't understand? I mean, it is painfully difficult to not understand it when there's so many posts explaining their views, their opinions, and most importantly THEIR PRINCIPLES, but obviously it's still possible (whether because you didn't read it or chose to ignore it is irrelevant). You don't decide what's a "big deal" and what isn't. I decide what's a big deal for me. TLO decides what's a big deal for him. Every single person does that. If so many of us consider it a big deal, then you coming here and telling us how it isn't and how we're all overreacting based on something you consider to be the objective truth (but really isn't) is beyond ridiculous. This whole issue is ultimately a matter of personal standards and principles. You don't find it a big deal? That says enough about your personal standards and principles. Nobody is pissed off at EG because it's EG, or because of any specific person in EG. One year ago, there was no bad sentiment towards EG in the community whatsoever. Between that time and now, they have done many things to change that, and people's opinion of EG changed to reflect that. It's all a consequence of their actions - not some declared witch-hunt you're imagining. The worst thing is that EG still doesn't get it or they pretend not to get it. To me personally it's obvious that many people don't really understand the Starcraft community either (hence they don't understand why coach Lee is upset, why the Korean fans are upset, and why a lot of people on TL are upset). If you go look at all the threads related to this issue, you'll see absurd number of posts that say things like "well that's how things are done in football/basketball/soccer/counter-strike its perfectly normal" and consider it a catch-all argument - but guess what - THIS ISN'T football or basketball or soccer or counter-strike. Try to understand the community and try to understand how things are different here and how many of us want to keep it different, and you might understand why this is a fairly big deal and why we feel so strongly about it. If you don't want to try, that's fine as well - just don't presume to tell others what should and shouldn't be a big deal for them. The same goes for EG if they don't want to become the poison brand of SC2 (even more than they are already). | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Raysalis
Malaysia1034 Posts
On July 23 2011 03:12 Ingebrigtsen wrote: wrong, and more wrong slasher has said this forever. 1. It was the middle of the night when the news broke, people were sleeping... 18 hours isn't that long in the world of announcments. 2. what other show were they to go on??? is there a magical thursday night show I dont know about? and if there is, do they get the same exposure as WoC. Please....PLEASE get more educated about the situation before you comment. Ok, they were sleeping so it took them a while to repsond, fair enough. But my second point still stand (which i think is the bigger mistake). Can you honestly say they came out of the show looking better from a PR point of view?! I think EG came out worse off after the show than before it... | ||
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
On July 23 2011 03:18 TBO wrote: you are the 4th guy who confuses slasher and zlasher in this topic... You act like 4 is a big number for that. My reason for bringing up Rekrul's post is not for the content of the post, which is intriguing in its own right, but to show that when someone hears one side of an argument, their mind has subconsciously made up their mind on the story. Whatever EG or AG says from then on will be seen only in the shadow of the original argument and it will become a secondary, and thus side note. When you allow something to blow up like that the mob mentality comes out once again. Imagine if TSL were painted as some evil empire that stole the two biggest names in starcraft 2 from oGs, improperly allocated salary funding heavily to those players, who have since left the team and now sit back to where they were originally. A team of players they 'grew'. We can look at this situation one of two ways. The signing of the player or the PR related afterwards. If someone wants to talk about how they dealt with the PR, with how they mistreated Milkis or attacked him, then fair enough, it seems that in the world of SC journalism finding both sides to the story is not prioritized over getting whatever news is out, out. If we want to talk about the signing of the player, is everyone saying that EG is to blame for not contacting Coach Lee? How about Tyler's point which is the best made, that Puma had several opportunities to immediately go to his coach in between all these talks? People saying that Coach Lee could not have had anyone from EG's contact info, well isn't that assumption as safe to make as EG not having Coach Lee's contact info? At what point can the line just be drawn that Puma was not on contract, EG pursued him, Puma accepted and only then, talked to his coach who was none too happy to hear in that manner. This is the series of events that occurred, what can anyone do about this now? | ||
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QuasarStarcraft
United States46 Posts
On July 23 2011 03:18 Arkan wrote: Why is this such an issue, obiously running on "trust and faith" is a completely flawed system and I dont see how for the life of me TSL thought this could at all be viable in the long run. Even if there is no salary, there should always be some sort of contract/agreement outlining rules of entry and departure of the clan/organization. Manager Lee states that he respects the players decision, but then releases statements showing his disappointment with everything. If he truly feels that TSL is losing out by releasing Puma then why didnt he make a counter-offer to possibly sway the decision? Im sorry folks, but TSL has no one to blame but their managment. Simply having players on teams based on "trust and faith" is not possible in any other professional sport and doesnt make it applicable in esports either. I seriously hope the Korean SC2 overhaul their recruitment process so we dont have to see any of this drama in the future. I don't see why more people don't see it this way. We have rules and regulations because "trust and faith" doesn't work. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
It's obvious TSL didn't want to get rid PuMa. It's obvious that signing TSL's top player without contacting the manager is sneaky and immoral. It's obvious that the possibility to cheaply sign one of the best players in the world was more important to EG than the, again, obvious backlash it would cause. It basically says: "we don't care about the integrity of eSports nor the relations between the foreigner and Korean scene, we're just going to smash and grab whatever we can and act dumb when we're confronted" It's sad that when the focal point of Starcraft starts shifting to the West, a team like EG without hesitation drops the morals set by 10 years of Korean Starcraft and starts doing things "the American way". It's a clear sign of disrespect towards a community that EG members themselves proclaimed to be the "Mecca of eSports". But whatever, when Starcraft 2 shows signs of not being centered around Korea in terms of popularity, we can drop our pretty words of admiration for the Korean work ethic and create our own league, neutrally calling it the North American Starleague, as a guise for a recruitment camp, since good relations with Korean teams is out the window with the emergence of big Western competitions, right EG? When it's legal it's not wrong ... right? Sorry, but I find their management disgustingly self-centered and shortsighted. I hope their sponsors get a good bit of flack, a hurting wallet might be the only thing that can reach them at this point. | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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HydroXy
United States513 Posts
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TheButtonmen
Canada1403 Posts
On July 23 2011 03:36 Saechiis wrote: It's obvious TSL didn't want to get rid PuMa. It's obvious that signing TSL's top player without contacting the manager is sneaky and immoral. It's obvious that the possibility to cheaply sign one of the best players in the world was more important to EG than the, again, obvious backlash it would cause. ...I'm so glad the TL community actually reads and finds out what happened before jumping to conclusions. Puma has not been signed with EG. There is nothing signed between Puma and EG. Puma is the one who requested that EG does not contact his coach. Again here is to the best of my knowledge how everthing went down based off of the 2 translated interviews, AGs statements on WoC and Xeris comments about EGs recruitment at NASL. | ||
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