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Kudos to TLO and later Tyler for posting their own opinions.
I think ultimately there are two things to take out of this situation. Number one, EG should have spoken to the Manager not the player. They did that with other teams in Korea so why talk to Puma in person at NASL? Just because it was handy to do face to face does not make it the correct approach.
Number two, whatever plans EG has for Korea are facing a PR disaster because of this. The backlash seems to be amazing and we're only seeing part of it.
You guys can turn this into an EG witch hunt if you want, but ultimately EG are facing an uphill struggle now in Korea to get their own plans going. I can see less and less people wanting to deal with them over there. They're already being punished with all this bad PR.
I hope this doesnt reflect badly on other Western teams trying to break into Korea.
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On July 23 2011 01:36 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 01:28 DarkSider wrote:On July 23 2011 00:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it. That's either naive or jealousy/hatred @ EG I don't know what would you do as TSL manager if you get aproached like that .. but i would tell Alex to F OFF, then i tell the player nothing good there come back. Maybe you can share your vision of what would you do as TSL manager ? Keep in mind your priority is the benefit of your team and not delivering sc2 stars to rich teams and keeping the scrubs for yourself :D I would negotiate a cost with EG to send Puma overseas. Like MC and Nada with SK. Oh. I guess maybe EG's too cheap to do that.
what SK is doing is basically rent-a-player and EG doesnt want to do that, and I wouldn't either. Alex already said on WoC about transfer fees as well and some korean teams have asked for more money than the company is even worth. So in cases like that, what do you think EG should do, pay the ridiculous amount of money that the korean teams are asking for in a transfer?
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On July 23 2011 00:33 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
people are just going to be split on siding with AG/EG if they're ignorant of their history of lies or siding with me if they trust me and/or aren't ignorant of their history of lies.
you are better than posting shit like "im right and your right or your wrong"
On July 23 2011 00:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 00:11 johanhar wrote:This is how sports work... if lets say a fotball player was under some team with no contract or salary, then it would be ok (in the "real" world of sports) to just contact the player directly  No, it's not. In sports, a free agent is known by everyone to be a free agent. In the SC2 scene, any player can decide for himself when he wants to be a free agent and he can tell as many or as few people as he wants. The solution is not just having a contract. The solution is having a contract and having a governing body to enforce some rules on how players and teams interact with each other. The whole contract discussion within this issue is irrelevant bullshit.
No professional sports teams would have a player practice and live with them if they weren't under contract. The moral of the story is make your players sign a contract that cannot be legally broken.
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On July 23 2011 01:51 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 01:36 JinDesu wrote:On July 23 2011 01:28 DarkSider wrote:On July 23 2011 00:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it. That's either naive or jealousy/hatred @ EG I don't know what would you do as TSL manager if you get aproached like that .. but i would tell Alex to F OFF, then i tell the player nothing good there come back. Maybe you can share your vision of what would you do as TSL manager ? Keep in mind your priority is the benefit of your team and not delivering sc2 stars to rich teams and keeping the scrubs for yourself :D I would negotiate a cost with EG to send Puma overseas. Like MC and Nada with SK. Oh. I guess maybe EG's too cheap to do that. what SK is doing is basically rent-a-player and EG doesnt want to do that, and I wouldn't either. Alex already said on WoC about transfer fees as well and some korean teams have asked for more money than the company is even worth. So in cases like that, what do you think EG should do, pay the ridiculous amount of money that the korean teams are asking for in a transfer?
No. Find someone else. What is this, "any means necessary"? If you can't afford someone, then you don't get him. Or go find rising talent in Korea like what these teams are doing. Is that another cost issue?
Is this entire thing of bypassing the coach a cost issue, hm?
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On July 23 2011 01:49 Chillax wrote:
Kudos to TLO and later Tyler for posting their own opinions.
I think ultimately there are two things to take out of this situation. Number one, EG should have spoken to the Manager not the player. They did that with other teams in Korea so why talk to Puma in person at NASL? Just because it was handy to do face to face does not make it the correct approach.
Number two, whatever plans EG has for Korea are facing a PR disaster because of this. The backlash seems to be amazing and we're only seeing part of it.
You guys can turn this into an EG witch hunt if you want, but ultimately EG are facing an uphill struggle now in Korea to get their own plans going. I can see less and less people wanting to deal with them over there. They're already being punished with all this bad PR.
I hope this doesnt reflect badly on other Western teams trying to break into Korea.
i think about 8000 posts have been written regarding why.
1) Alex was networking with everyone at NASL, passing out business cards and making it known that they were looking for players.
2) Puma was interested and asked for more info, Alex gave it to him.
3) Puma said oh let me talk to my coach first, and Alex agreed that it was the best course of action. After all, there is NOTHING stopping TSL Coach Lee to contact EG if he didn't like what Puma tells him, whether it was contract related or a simple "Hey please talk to me instead of the player". But instead, Coach Lee decides to go post on twitter that he was mad.
4) For all Alex knows, he was under the impression that the talks with Coach Lee went extremely well.
If you are going to blame EG for not talking to TSL first about this, then you must also blame TSL for not contacting EG before this story broke out. You can't apply one rule against one company and not the other. 2 wrongs dont make a right.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
Oh man the best part about the whole EG-Puma debate was Milkis (a neutral party, translator) being attacked by the EG's Executive director on Weapon of Choice for not contacting EG about their stance, while all he did was translate (and provide an opinion on his own twitter). The hilarity in this situation is AMAZING. EG did not contact coach lee, EG did not try to explain anything, EG did literally nothing. So a translator should be responsible for EG public relations. Fail...
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves." And that was an official topic on their own tournament...
Hypocrits.
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On July 23 2011 01:57 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 01:51 zev318 wrote:On July 23 2011 01:36 JinDesu wrote:On July 23 2011 01:28 DarkSider wrote:On July 23 2011 00:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it. That's either naive or jealousy/hatred @ EG I don't know what would you do as TSL manager if you get aproached like that .. but i would tell Alex to F OFF, then i tell the player nothing good there come back. Maybe you can share your vision of what would you do as TSL manager ? Keep in mind your priority is the benefit of your team and not delivering sc2 stars to rich teams and keeping the scrubs for yourself :D I would negotiate a cost with EG to send Puma overseas. Like MC and Nada with SK. Oh. I guess maybe EG's too cheap to do that. what SK is doing is basically rent-a-player and EG doesnt want to do that, and I wouldn't either. Alex already said on WoC about transfer fees as well and some korean teams have asked for more money than the company is even worth. So in cases like that, what do you think EG should do, pay the ridiculous amount of money that the korean teams are asking for in a transfer? No. Find someone else. What is this, "any means necessary"? If you can't afford someone, then you don't get him. Or go find rising talent in Korea like what these teams are doing. Is that another cost issue? Is this entire thing of bypassing the coach a cost issue, hm?
And EG did find someone else, Puma. Any means necessary would be still going after a player who had a contract after they've been told "here's the transfee, pay it or there's nothing else to say".
Why would EG have to find rising talent when there is talent already to be had? Puma has no contract, therefore he is open to decide himself where he wants to go.
Again, EG did not say "oh we gonna bypass the coach", Puma suggested that he himself talk to the coach.
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On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote:
Oh man the best part about the whole EG-Puma debate was Milkis (a neutral party, translator) being attacked by the EG's Executive director on Weapon of Choice for not contacting EG about their stance, while all he did was translate (and provide an opinion on his own twitter). The hilarity in this situation is AMAZING. EG did not contact coach lee, EG did not try to explain anything, EG did literally nothing. So a translator should be responsible for EG public relations. Fail...
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves."
Hypocrits.
I <3 you Bey. ;o
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On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote:
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves."
I knew I was forgetting something.
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On July 23 2011 02:01 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 01:57 JinDesu wrote:On July 23 2011 01:51 zev318 wrote:On July 23 2011 01:36 JinDesu wrote:On July 23 2011 01:28 DarkSider wrote:On July 23 2011 00:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
The first thing he should have done is emailed/texted/called his manager (who wasn't at NASL) and say that foreigner teams are showing interest in him by giving him an invitation to talk (the business card). He'd tell his manager that he thinks the foreigner teams might be able to help TSL or help him and he wants his manager to talk to them and find out all the possibilities. That would have been awesome and I'm sure something good would have come of it. That's either naive or jealousy/hatred @ EG I don't know what would you do as TSL manager if you get aproached like that .. but i would tell Alex to F OFF, then i tell the player nothing good there come back. Maybe you can share your vision of what would you do as TSL manager ? Keep in mind your priority is the benefit of your team and not delivering sc2 stars to rich teams and keeping the scrubs for yourself :D I would negotiate a cost with EG to send Puma overseas. Like MC and Nada with SK. Oh. I guess maybe EG's too cheap to do that. what SK is doing is basically rent-a-player and EG doesnt want to do that, and I wouldn't either. Alex already said on WoC about transfer fees as well and some korean teams have asked for more money than the company is even worth. So in cases like that, what do you think EG should do, pay the ridiculous amount of money that the korean teams are asking for in a transfer? No. Find someone else. What is this, "any means necessary"? If you can't afford someone, then you don't get him. Or go find rising talent in Korea like what these teams are doing. Is that another cost issue? Is this entire thing of bypassing the coach a cost issue, hm? And EG did find someone else, Puma. Any means necessary would be still going after a player who had a contract after they've been told "here's the transfee, pay it or there's nothing else to say". Why would EG have to find rising talent when there is talent already to be had? Puma has no contract, therefore he is open to decide himself where he wants to go. Again, EG did not say "oh we gonna bypass the coach", Puma suggested that he himself talk to the coach.
"1) Alex was networking with everyone at NASL, passing out business cards and making it known that they were looking for players.
2) Puma was interested and asked for more info, Alex gave it to him."
If we can disregard the 2 points above for one moment, only because I don't know the source - if you can link me the source for this, that'd be great.
EG knows Puma is on TSL. So the whole thing hinges on who approached who, right? Why would a professional team, a team who's spent years in e-sports (and also poached CS players, so maybe that's why), go up to a player on a team and express interest? How did they know he had no contract? I can't imagine how they would know he has no contract, so wouldn't this fall under "any means necessary"?
"Hey, look! It's Puma, let's go ask him to join us even though he's wearing TSL garb, he's playing for TSL, and everyone in Korea knows he's on TSL"
Why should EG have to find rising talent? Because then it's far more legitimate than poaching players.
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Regarding TLO's OP, most of it was about how EG responded and unfairly criticized Milkis. I don't like how the discussion has focused so much on that.
The original question is whether EG's actions starting from NASL to a few days ago were ethical or not. Based on the facts that AG presented, which have not been contested yet, I still don't see how they did anything wrong. These facts were:
- EG went to NASL targeting all Koreans, openly, by handing out cards/flyers. If people thought that this was shady, they should have called EG out right then and there. Even FXO guy says that he will often schmooze with players at events and talk about them joining.
- EG had no intention of Puma signing a contract before getting back to TSL (and they still don't have a contract). This removes the shadiness aspect of not giving TSL a chance to also make an offer.
- Puma requested that he be the one to bring it up to TSL. It's totally understandable for EG to accept this decision. Certainly, if I were leaving my employer and wanted to break the news, I wouldn't want my new employer to override me.
I don't care that AG sounds like a sleazy guy, or that EG has horrible PR, or that EG has been shady in the past. That is a separate discussion. But I don't see how EG is still getting hate for what everyone was initially freaking out about - their actions in recruiting Puma.
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On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote:
Oh man the best part about the whole EG-Puma debate was Milkis (a neutral party, translator) being attacked by the EG's Executive director on Weapon of Choice for not contacting EG about their stance, while all he did was translate (and provide an opinion on his own twitter). The hilarity in this situation is AMAZING. EG did not contact coach lee, EG did not try to explain anything, EG did literally nothing. So a translator should be responsible for EG public relations. Fail...
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves." And that was an official topic on their own tournament...
Hypocrits.
This pretty much sums up everything that is wrong with EG right now.... Kudos to you.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On July 23 2011 02:03 Duka08 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote:
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves." I knew I was forgetting something.
Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious..
FOR ESPORTS!!
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On July 23 2011 01:39 Duka08 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 01:26 h-a-r-v wrote:On July 23 2011 01:12 Duka08 wrote:
Those are simply rules that haven't been formulated yet, but probably will be now. I'm sorry, but aren't codified civil laws like 2000 years old now? The fact of the matter is that without a sanctioning body with a set of rules, and without written contracts, those arguments can not be applied and the "business" will always win. It's unfortunate. I hate this kind of business just as much as the next guy. But it's life. They weren't in place, and in retrospect Coach Lee wishes he had signed something, even though in his mind the bond was already there, and more fundamentally important to him. But unfortunately that doesn't count, and now there will probably be a push for more regulations. I actually wonder what's going on in that SC2 Player's Association thing right now in Korea.
I guess I can nothing but agree. That's how this world works and it's NOT A BAD mechanism at all. I can understand where the compassion for Lee is coming from but I think people are overestimating his 'pain'. He's not Puma's father or something, he'll get over it soon. Deal is a deal. TSL had no deal with Puma. If they really cared, they'd have one, instead they were building castles in the sand, which is BAD for the players. Have you ever been working without a deal? Do you know that feeling of insecurity? As you grow up you realize that having something on paper is not 'a sanctioning body with a set of rules', it's not a cold, evil, business thing - it's a way of showing respect to each other as well as to the case both parties are up to, there's nothing wrong in signing papers. You sign them when you marry. Yes, a marriage is a deal too. When both parties are satisfied, it's nothing but a great thing. Apparently Puma didn't feel that bond with TSL, otherwise he'd refuse or send them to his coach. EG approached him as the only valid person in this case and he - already an adult - made his choice. No one can blame EG for making him an offer when they totally could do so. To me it's just ridiculous how people like TLO now easily dismiss the most important business part of it and the fact that nothing would happen without Puma agreeing to go, and blame EG for breaking someone's heart. Puma was free to go and he went. End of story. Simple as it is. His coach will miss him? OK, then he will and maybe vice versa, but that's like a side-effect EG can't be responsible for. Approaching the coach first wouldn't change a thing except being a better PR apparently. He'd still be hurt he's losing his disciple and would rather have him stay, but he'd go anyway. I'm repeating myself now. Let's film 'Starcraft Kid' or something possibly, that's where diving into drama like this would make sense. It's absolutely not applicable to making deals in e-sports though.
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On July 23 2011 02:07 yoshi_yoshi wrote:
Regarding TLO's OP, most of it was about how EG responded and unfairly criticized Milkis. I don't like how the discussion has focused so much on that.
The original question is whether EG's actions starting from NASL to a few days ago were ethical or not. Based on the facts that AG presented, which have not been contested yet, I still don't see how they did anything wrong. These facts were:
- EG went to NASL targeting all Koreans, openly, by handing out cards/flyers. If people thought that this was shady, they should have called EG out right then and there. Even FXO guy says that he will often schmooze with players at events and talk about them joining.
- EG had no intention of Puma signing a contract before getting back to TSL (and they still don't have a contract). This removes the shadiness aspect of not giving TSL a chance to also make an offer.
- Puma requested that he be the one to bring it up to TSL. It's totally understandable for EG to accept this decision. Certainly, if I were leaving my employer and wanted to break the news, I wouldn't want my new employer to override me.
I don't care that AG sounds like a sleazy guy, or that EG has horrible PR, or that EG has been shady in the past. That is a separate discussion. But I don't see how EG is still getting hate for what everyone was initially freaking out about - their actions in recruiting Puma.
And how many people know about this to even say "this is shady"? I haven't seen anything on the forums mentioning that.
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On July 23 2011 02:07 yoshi_yoshi wrote:
Regarding TLO's OP, most of it was about how EG responded and unfairly criticized Milkis. I don't like how the discussion has focused so much on that.
The original question is whether EG's actions starting from NASL to a few days ago were ethical or not. Based on the facts that AG presented, which have not been contested yet, I still don't see how they did anything wrong. These facts were:
- EG went to NASL targeting all Koreans, openly, by handing out cards/flyers. If people thought that this was shady, they should have called EG out right then and there. Even FXO guy says that he will often schmooze with players at events and talk about them joining.
- EG had no intention of Puma signing a contract before getting back to TSL (and they still don't have a contract). This removes the shadiness aspect of not giving TSL a chance to also make an offer.
- Puma requested that he be the one to bring it up to TSL. It's totally understandable for EG to accept this decision. Certainly, if I were leaving my employer and wanted to break the news, I wouldn't want my new employer to override me.
I don't care that AG sounds like a sleazy guy, or that EG has horrible PR, or that EG has been shady in the past. That is a separate discussion. But I don't see how EG is still getting hate for what everyone was initially freaking out about - their actions in recruiting Puma.
if you don't like what this topic is about why don't you go to the Puma leaves TSL for EG topic then instead of hijacking this thread?.
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On July 23 2011 02:08 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 02:03 Duka08 wrote:On July 23 2011 02:00 Beyonder wrote:
And remember what EG said last time with the TL-EG drama about participation in the EG team league? An official representative of EG made a thread on the tourney and simply said that TeamLiquid did not want to participate. When accused of providing misinformation, EG said "That is not our responsibility! Teamliquid should tell that themselves." I knew I was forgetting something. Yeppp, I wonder if other people put this situation in the light of the TL-EG team league discussion. It looks so hilarious.. FOR ESPORTS!!
i made that point last night already, you're stealing my thunder 
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Thanks TLO, you've really summed it up quite nicely.
The ethical/moral dimensions to this have been explored to death on the forums here, so I'll avoid posting on them, but there is one point I do want to add. This fits a pattern of simply bad business decisions in my view-- short/mid-term focus with complete disregard to long term brand equity is not a viable business strategy. Sure you net an awesome player who will draw eyes, but you also hurt the value of the EG brand, which is arguably the team's most important resource-- other players/community members/viewers having a negative image of EG as a whole will eventually impact their perception of sponsors who affiliate with EG, which is not a situation you'd like to move towards as management.
People can hide behind legal excuses/talk about contracts all they like but in the end its a question of perception, and I don't think EG gained at all from this exchange.
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^^ Well thats only in the short term, people will be sad about tsl for a bit, but once the competitions starts, this will all be forgotten and most people will cheer for their favorite EG member, and ultimately thats what matters to the sponsors, to see their sponsored players watched by many people, and with puma that can only increase, it's short term pain for long term gain.
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On July 22 2011 21:43 ComaDose wrote:Its well that you blogged in addition to posting in the thread. I know I gave up on that thread a long time ago. Show nested quote +If they want to play the bad boys, they should at least be able to deal with the criticism, however EG seems to demand high morale standard from everyone but themselves. Its pretty much about this. They KNOW they were doing something wrong. Or they are VERY stupid. Then when people are like "hey you guys!" they are like "common stop hating". What they did is wrong. It doesn't matter if you don't like coach lee. A crime is a crime a foul is a foul and approaching a team member without talking to the team is a big foul. Quite frankly i don't care about it too much but EG's reaction is making me like them less. A community like starcraft would have reacted better to immediate insincere apologies than lies and delays.
With all due respect I completely disagree. No reason to approach a free agent to what team he is currently on first at all. Puma is not TSL's slave. They could have told TSL afterwards but it wouldn't have changed anything. Puma was free to tell his team he was going to switch at any time but did not say anything and EG never gave any orders to keep it a secret AFAIK.
Why should Puma have all that much loyalty to his team anyway when he has barely spent that much time with them? Team swaps should be talked out between team managers? Who made that rule?
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EPT
