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My Thoughts on EG/Puma - Page 12

Blogs > Liquid`TLO
Post a Reply
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MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
July 22 2011 14:18 GMT
#221
Any update on Puma ? Will he stay in Korea ? Will he go to EG house ?
Leafren
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium66 Posts
July 22 2011 14:19 GMT
#222
Well written TLO, agreed!

I thought the move itself was questionable. Then, WoC is used as some sort of EG propaganda channel to attack a key member of this community who just did his job. I guess it was to be expected, but it is unfortunate all neutrality is lost on WoC and affiliated shows for me. What a travesty.
Hesmyrr
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada5776 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 14:22:19
July 22 2011 14:19 GMT
#223
Adhering to my sig, I tried not to touch with ten feet pole, and I do feel impartial about whole PumA debate, but I guess I have to say this. No matter how legal or "right" they were, their PR conduct was fucking horrible.

While I did not see the forementioned WoC, I do get the gist that they attacked Milkis's behaviour. And resorting to ad hominem for any of your arguments is the most terrible thing one could do in my eyes.

Seriously- in the past we actually did give a shit about contributors.
"If watching the MSL finals makes you a progamer, then anyone in Korea can do it." - Ha Tae Ki
Lotar
Profile Joined September 2010
132 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 14:22:21
July 22 2011 14:20 GMT
#224
On July 22 2011 20:14 Liquid`TLO wrote:
EG keeps acting morally questionably, without really caring about consequences towards third parties.

Meanwhile, some other teams have players with no contract and no salary practicing X hours a day and nobody seems to mind.

How dare EG offer financial stability to a player without really caring about consequences towards third parties?
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
July 22 2011 14:23 GMT
#225
On July 22 2011 23:20 Lotar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 20:14 Liquid`TLO wrote:
EG keeps acting morally questionably, without really caring about consequences towards third parties.

Meanwhile, some other teams have players with no contract and no salary practicing X hours a day and nobody seems to mind.

How dare EG offer financial stability to a player without really caring about consequences towards third parties?

yeah, I wonder how did he won 50k$.
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11766 Posts
July 22 2011 14:26 GMT
#226
On July 22 2011 23:23 MrCon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 23:20 Lotar wrote:
On July 22 2011 20:14 Liquid`TLO wrote:
EG keeps acting morally questionably, without really caring about consequences towards third parties.

Meanwhile, some other teams have players with no contract and no salary practicing X hours a day and nobody seems to mind.

How dare EG offer financial stability to a player without really caring about consequences towards third parties?

yeah, I wonder how did he won 50k$.


He could be making 50k + however much EG will pay him.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
ElFuego
Profile Joined January 2011
United States45 Posts
July 22 2011 14:26 GMT
#227
On July 22 2011 23:14 Zaros wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 23:06 zere wrote:
Milkis is first and foremost a fan, a community member, a contributer to ESPORTS. He is not a "journalist", he is also not "just a translator". Contrary to some other entities in our scene, he doesn't do things only for the money and the business, but because he wants to contribute and because he thinks people might find the things that he does (=mostly translating) useful.
Some imbeciles might not realize this, some shady people try to turn attention and blame on our good contributor here for their business sakes. Luckily, the StarCraft scene is quite bright and will not be blinded by these shades of distraction. These parties will get what they deserve, sooner or later. Don't turn on Milkis for no reason, you're going down.


I think this whole affair shows quite the opposite and that the starcraft scene is rather blind to how business works. I think its unfair to blame milkis i would agree with that but the EG director was making a more broad point.

Korea doesnt have sole rights on SC2, why should the international scene adhere to what the korean culture thinks is right. Korea should adapt to the rest of the world not the other way around if they are too stupid to contract their best player they deserve to lose him.

I honestly am suprised and dissapointed at how much hate EG is getting for making a perfectly reasonable and fair business transaction. Im sorry if people think the world is honourable and all sunshine and rainbows but its not. So congratulations EG on picking up an awesome player and i hope to see him play in more foreign events .



^ This ^

Clearly if Esports are going to continue and grow then this sort of behavior will happen more and more. Honestly, if EG doesn't have to go through anyone but Puma in order to sign Puma then why should they take additional steps? If the players haven't signed a contract with a team there is absolutely no point in talking with the team instead of the player.

That being said, good manners dictate that they eventually notify the team of their intent but there is nothing wrong with gauging the player's interest first.

People on here just don't understand how sports teams work and believe it or not Esports are similar and will become more similar to real sports in that respect.
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 14:28:48
July 22 2011 14:27 GMT
#228
On July 22 2011 23:09 infinitestory wrote:
I see there are a lot of people (in other threads perhaps) arguing that this is smart business practice by EG, and pointing out that contracting free agents like this must be OK because it's common in other sports. I heartily disagree. There is no comparison between eSports and other sports. On top of that, if this is the kind of "common sports practice" that businesses hope to bring to the Starcraft scene, then I hope that eSports stays as different as possible from mainstream sports.

Sure, EG came out of this with PuMa, one of the strongest terrans in the scene, but the PR backlash is undeniable. We're not even seeing the brunt of it - I hear over in the Korean scene there is much more outrage. eSports dealings have traditionally been infused with a very high level of sportsmanship. Shady business like this, while legal, does no good for the atmosphere of SC.

Compare the way EG dealt with TSL and the way FXO dealt with fOu. EG talks to PuMa directly (and apparently to other players as well, in hopes of goading just one top player into leaving their team). FXO builds up a strong relationship over time, and when fOu asks FXO to sponsor their team, a strong global cooperation is formed.

I don't think this mindset is just the trappings of the old BW days which should be discarded. I think teams should head forward with a spirit of global cooperation rather than businesslike competition.


EDIT: In any case, I think TLO has said it pretty brilliantly (albeit at some points a bit vindictively).


I wholeheartedly agree with this. For the people who say "oh please, there was no contract, EG isn't wrong, Coach Lee should have had a contract" -

First and foremost, if these korean teams were running under a utopian concept, is that not better than our jaded way? And to have a foreign team break in and do damage to their ideals, I do not doubt the korean netizens and SC2 progamers are more wary of foreign teams now. Especially EG - I can't imagine the koreans having a good view of EG at all in any way. I hope that they don't close themselves off, but I do not blame them for having a bad view of EG.

On July 22 2011 23:20 Lotar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 20:14 Liquid`TLO wrote:
EG keeps acting morally questionably, without really caring about consequences towards third parties.

Meanwhile, some other teams have players with no contract and no salary practicing X hours a day and nobody seems to mind.

How dare EG offer financial stability to a player without really caring about consequences towards third parties?


These people are working damn hard to GET sponsors and GET a salary. They are working as a team, giving up materials and time just to achieve it. To have a foreign entity come in and just stomp on that ideal without giving the team their due respect is just wrong. It's not even about talking to Coach Lee. It's about giving the entire team the heads up.
Yargh
Vansetsu
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1454 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 14:32:55
July 22 2011 14:27 GMT
#229
On July 22 2011 23:09 infinitestory wrote:
I see there are a lot of people (in other threads perhaps) arguing that this is smart business practice by EG, and pointing out that contracting free agents like this must be OK because it's common in other sports. I heartily disagree. There is no comparison between eSports and other sports. On top of that, if this is the kind of "common sports practice" that businesses hope to bring to the Starcraft scene, then I hope that eSports stays as different as possible from mainstream sports.

Sure, EG came out of this with PuMa, one of the strongest terrans in the scene, but the PR backlash is undeniable. We're not even seeing the brunt of it - I hear over in the Korean scene there is much more outrage. eSports dealings have traditionally been infused with a very high level of sportsmanship. Shady business like this, while legal, does no good for the atmosphere of SC.

Compare the way EG dealt with TSL and the way FXO dealt with fOu. EG talks to PuMa directly (and apparently to other players as well, in hopes of goading just one top player into leaving their team). FXO builds up a strong relationship over time, and when fOu asks FXO to sponsor their team, a strong global cooperation is formed.

I don't think this mindset is just the trappings of the old BW days which should be discarded. I think teams should head forward with a spirit of global cooperation rather than businesslike competition.


EDIT: In any case, I think TLO has said it pretty brilliantly (albeit at some points a bit vindictively).


100% agree. In fact, I posted something just a little while ago, and I feel it actually makes more sense re-posting the majority of it it here, so forgive the reclyed text, but I think it fits better on topic here:

I will simply say I won't support EG. People too often think that new enterprises have to develop in a classical model. I absolutely don't believe this. Furthermore, everything I've ever seen from EG, from it's decisions to it's players statements has been very passive-aggressive, usually done in bad taste, and morally unacceptable for me. And it just gets old in my opinion, among other things.

Since myself, as an individual, won't support them, I will actually do my best to intelligently not support their sponsors. I say intelligently, because some of their sponsors actually also sponsor other great things, or great things in the community. When I look at e-sports as a product, I have to look at not just what I am getting but how I am getting it. Were my e-sports sneakers made by a 4 year old in a sweatshop? Geez, maybe I wont support that anymore. Harsh metaphor, but I'm tired and it makes the point. Of course, you can't have this ideology with everything, i.e. I'm not going to stop using my cellphone because it's impractical, even if people have to mine materials in horrible conditions to make them. The biggest point is, I'm going to try to support and or do what I think is right, mitigating the ethical damage the best I can... I would sincerely hope individuals as well companies or associations would take the same stance or philosophies. But again, just my opinion here and how I feel about things.

EDIT: Nice to hear it from someone I would consider a "Pillar of the Community". The phrase gets thrown around a lot, and IMO, some of these other "Pillars" are a lot more like crumbling sandcastles in my eyes.
Only by overcoming many obstacles does a river become - デイヴィ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ド
thebike
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States157 Posts
July 22 2011 14:34 GMT
#230
It boggles my mind that some people are still arguing, "Puma wasn't under a contract, so what's the problem?" That's not the point! Yes, EG did nothing wrong legally, and I don't think anyone thinks that they did. They were culturally insensitive and went into talks with a 19 year old player who was on a team without first contacting the coach, obviously not understanding that this was not the proper route to take to maintain a positive relationship with TSL / the Korean scene. They should have talked to the coach, as the representative of the team, first. AG kept talking about the "international standards" of player recruitment last night, but I felt like he really meant "western standards." Eastern gaming culture is different than western gaming culture in significant ways, and this would be one of them.

Now, all of this would have been somewhat OK if EG had just apologized for not realizing that they should have contacted the team first, but they continue to stand behind this idea that the blame is evenly distributed between the two teams (or perhaps not even 50/50, as AG said last night? I'm not sure whether he means that EG is more to blame or TSL is, but the latter would be totally ridiculous).

Even though there was no legal obligation to contact TSL first, it was the right thing to do. TSL had given Puma shelter and food for ten months while he trained to become the player he is today. EG could have at least tried to contact the team before trying to poach him; at the very least, they could have apologized for doing what is obviously (and perhaps unintentionally) a disrespectful gesture towards TSL and the Korean scene.
the bike AKA the REGULAR TRAIN
ComaDose
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada10357 Posts
July 22 2011 14:35 GMT
#231
On July 22 2011 23:26 ElFuego wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 23:14 Zaros wrote:
On July 22 2011 23:06 zere wrote:
Milkis is first and foremost a fan, a community member, a contributer to ESPORTS. He is not a "journalist", he is also not "just a translator". Contrary to some other entities in our scene, he doesn't do things only for the money and the business, but because he wants to contribute and because he thinks people might find the things that he does (=mostly translating) useful.
Some imbeciles might not realize this, some shady people try to turn attention and blame on our good contributor here for their business sakes. Luckily, the StarCraft scene is quite bright and will not be blinded by these shades of distraction. These parties will get what they deserve, sooner or later. Don't turn on Milkis for no reason, you're going down.


I think this whole affair shows quite the opposite and that the starcraft scene is rather blind to how business works. I think its unfair to blame milkis i would agree with that but the EG director was making a more broad point.

Korea doesnt have sole rights on SC2, why should the international scene adhere to what the korean culture thinks is right. Korea should adapt to the rest of the world not the other way around if they are too stupid to contract their best player they deserve to lose him.

I honestly am suprised and dissapointed at how much hate EG is getting for making a perfectly reasonable and fair business transaction. Im sorry if people think the world is honourable and all sunshine and rainbows but its not. So congratulations EG on picking up an awesome player and i hope to see him play in more foreign events .



^ This ^

Clearly if Esports are going to continue and grow then this sort of behavior will happen more and more. Honestly, if EG doesn't have to go through anyone but Puma in order to sign Puma then why should they take additional steps? If the players haven't signed a contract with a team there is absolutely no point in talking with the team instead of the player.

That being said, good manners dictate that they eventually notify the team of their intent but there is nothing wrong with gauging the player's interest first.

People on here just don't understand how sports teams work and believe it or not Esports are similar and will become more similar to real sports in that respect.

Hurt myself biting my tongue when the original was posted.
But to have someone quote it positively.... i cannot bear it!
why should the international scene adhere to what the korean culture thinks is right. Korea should adapt to the rest of the world not the other way around if they are too stupid to contract their best player they deserve to lose him.
such sad human beings populate the earth.
Korea birthed esports and this is how you treat your mother.
You are stealing from her purse.
Calling her stupid for not locking it.
And then saying sorry mom this is how the world is.
Im sorry if people think the world is honourable and all sunshine and rainbows but its not.
Im sorry there arn't more people that wish it was.
Honor is a concept lost on business.
Clearly if Esports are going to continue and grow then this sort of behavior will happen more and more.
why do you have so little faith in humanity?
dont you think something like team loyalty is commendable?
If the players haven't signed a contract with a team there is absolutely no point in talking with the team instead of the player.
except being a good and upfront organization and not getting flack from the community.
BW pros training sc2 is like kiss making a dub step album.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
July 22 2011 14:41 GMT
#232
I think the overall issue is that EG was late with a PR and then one came out without their submitted view, they came down hard on the messenger boy.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Crais
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada2136 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 14:46:55
July 22 2011 14:41 GMT
#233
Well said TLO. It seems EG is doing something controversial every month. I was still on their "side" for the majority of this until Alex attacked Milkis. That was it - attacking a community member for doing nothing but volunteer is low and pathetic. I for one am done with following EG. They have some of my fav players, but I am done supporting the team.


Edit:

On July 22 2011 23:41 Torte de Lini wrote:
I think the overall issue is that EG was late with a PR and then one came out without their submitted view, they came down hard on the messenger boy.



Exactly.
RIP MBC Game Hero
ComaDose
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada10357 Posts
July 22 2011 14:47 GMT
#234
On July 22 2011 23:41 Torte de Lini wrote:
I think the overall issue is that EG was late with a PR and then one came out without their submitted view, they came down hard on the messenger boy.

exactly. they should be sorry not aggressive.
BW pros training sc2 is like kiss making a dub step album.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 14:49:39
July 22 2011 14:49 GMT
#235
Yes, a double exactly! Give me a medal!
It's just a blame game. I'm surprised Puma isn't at all included in any issues.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Lotar
Profile Joined September 2010
132 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 14:55:32
July 22 2011 14:51 GMT
#236
On July 22 2011 23:23 MrCon wrote:
yeah, I wonder how did he won 50k$.

Good thing he won that tournament too, otherwise he'd still have $0 in his wallet like all those other unpaid players which you don't hear about. And when those can't get to Code S, all they have left is the army. But hey, they're already used to live in baracks and sleep in bunk beds

On July 22 2011 23:41 Torte de Lini wrote:
I think the overall issue is that EG was late with a PR and then one came out without their submitted view, they came down hard on the messenger boy.

They haven't signed the guy yet, how early do you want them to announce that they did?
ComaDose
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada10357 Posts
July 22 2011 14:54 GMT
#237
On July 22 2011 23:49 Torte de Lini wrote:
Yes, a double exactly! Give me a medal!
It's just a blame game. I'm surprised Puma isn't at all included in any issues.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

If Puma said let me talk to my team about it then the first thing he said was im moving to EG he is to blame as much.
Everyone should have agreed that 2 teams and 1 player needed to have a discussion.
BW pros training sc2 is like kiss making a dub step album.
crackcc
Profile Joined April 2011
114 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-22 15:09:37
July 22 2011 14:56 GMT
#238
Wow ! That took a few pages but im glad EVERYONE is now in agreement ! You all show incredible maturity by finding a way to agree even though your thoughts may differ slightly on certain details. Go give yourself a round of aplause I love you guys !
What we should take away from this :

EG will do better next time by not trusting a young inexperienced kid with important news, taking less time to do damage control, and getting to know the culture/putting themselves in the others shoe so to speak - I think any team would have reacted the way Lee did !

Puma will know better next time, and will make better judgment calls @ the people he knows ( lee ) and how his community will react with their traditions and way of doing things.

Lee will treat his players better ( he is allready giving them contracts ) and will contact the concerned parrties before criticizing them, or voicing his fustrations/anger towards a player or team publicly !

Together now ... FOR EEEEEEEEEEEE - SPORTS
'' Think of the children .... Oh why wont anyone think of the children !''

EDIT :
On July 22 2011 23:51 Lotar wrote:

Good thing he won that tournament too, otherwise he'd still have $0 in his wallet like all those other unpaid players which you don't hear about. And when those can't get to Code S, all they have left is the army. But hey, they're already used to live in baracks and sleep in bunk beds .


It is also possible that he may have felt pressured ( if only by his concience ) to give some/all his prize money as those two other players ( I forget who it was .. clide maybe ? ) had given back the money they recieved ( sort of a bonus if I understood well as they dont get a salary ) to help with their teams finances. Imagine that ! Im pretty sure their money combined was no where near as much as puma got from nasl so you can imagine what puma felt.
Just imagine here you are in a house where youve all recieved pretty much the same training. The few who recieved money gave it back to help further their ''cause''. You win a butload of cash and you dont want to give any ... :o ...

THIS IS TOTALLY HYPOTHETICAL ! But you have to admit its an interesting thought, the position he may have been in IF ... IF he didnt want to give any money back ! Since of course it was up to him !
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
July 22 2011 14:56 GMT
#239
On July 22 2011 23:51 Lotar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 23:23 MrCon wrote:
yeah, I wonder how did he won 50k$.

Good thing he won that tournament too, otherwise he'd still have $0 in his wallet like all those other unpaid players which you don't hear about.

Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 23:41 Torte de Lini wrote:
I think the overall issue is that EG was late with a PR and then one came out without their submitted view, they came down hard on the messenger boy.

They haven't signed the guy yet, how early do you want them to announce that they did?


So?

Puma still leaves TSL and the repercussion still occur.
Blame PlayXP then, the translator does only what is written. There are no other duties but to accurately translate what is said.

And if the idea that Puma wasn't signed yet is true and it is that simple or obvious, why wasn't it said several hours after the article released? If EG has a translator, why aren't they going after playxp?
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TurpinOS
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada1223 Posts
July 22 2011 14:57 GMT
#240
On July 22 2011 23:14 Zaros wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2011 23:06 zere wrote:
Milkis is first and foremost a fan, a community member, a contributer to ESPORTS. He is not a "journalist", he is also not "just a translator". Contrary to some other entities in our scene, he doesn't do things only for the money and the business, but because he wants to contribute and because he thinks people might find the things that he does (=mostly translating) useful.
Some imbeciles might not realize this, some shady people try to turn attention and blame on our good contributor here for their business sakes. Luckily, the StarCraft scene is quite bright and will not be blinded by these shades of distraction. These parties will get what they deserve, sooner or later. Don't turn on Milkis for no reason, you're going down.


I think this whole affair shows quite the opposite and that the starcraft scene is rather blind to how business works. I think its unfair to blame milkis i would agree with that but the EG director was making a more broad point.

Korea doesnt have sole rights on SC2, why should the international scene adhere to what the korean culture thinks is right. Korea should adapt to the rest of the world not the other way around if they are too stupid to contract their best player they deserve to lose him.

I honestly am suprised and dissapointed at how much hate EG is getting for making a perfectly reasonable and fair business transaction. Im sorry if people think the world is honourable and all sunshine and rainbows but its not. So congratulations EG on picking up an awesome player and i hope to see him play in more foreign events .


The fact that ''this is how business usually work'' doesnt change the fact that ESports is (I hope to believe) different from traditional sports, and people like me would like to believe that we can steer away from this ''how business usually is'' in order to make it a sport where business is not only about making money.

As for your argument about Korea having sole rights on SC2, you are correct, they dont. BUT, BUT PuMa is a Korean, and was on a Korean team, so am I the only one who believes that, in this situation, it would have been the respectful and correct (and no, I havent said legal, I know what they did was legal) thing to do to contact TSL before going to talk to PuMa (and multiple other players), because its how it is in Korea. Im not talking about a US team going for a US player here, im talking about respecting other cultures and the way people do things over there if you go in that country (or in that instance get players from said country)

It was a good business transaction, sure, it gets them exposure, but in the end it was handled quite terribly, but yeah sure it was legal and if thats all that matters to you, then Im not sure I want to be part of that ''esport'' that you describe.



+ Show Spoiler +
And all this ''legal is not the only important thing'' coming to you from a law student........


Bolded part of your text made me laugh, I doubt anyone believes the world is totally honourable (as we could see from that recent EG/PuMa thing), but is it really too much to ask for a little bit of honour.

To me, thats not even the biggest issue. The whole PR thing afterwards and the ''lets blame Milkis cause we fucked up'' is the big thing.
http://eve.znaor.hr/pimpmydomi/
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