EPTHowever it's not just about your intent, the word faggot still has its homophobic origins and carries a derogatory meaning, regardless of your intent. And by using such words you are promoting those negative ideals even if it's not something you intended to do. Basically restating the OP but nobody bothered to read it because it was long.
The sc2 community and gay bashing - Page 4
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spree
United States86 Posts
However it's not just about your intent, the word faggot still has its homophobic origins and carries a derogatory meaning, regardless of your intent. And by using such words you are promoting those negative ideals even if it's not something you intended to do. Basically restating the OP but nobody bothered to read it because it was long. | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
You can't change this behaviour by giving statistics, telling people that there are gay people who exist and they are dealing with multiple issues in their life already and simply using a word for the purpose of insulting, that you add one more to the list. Some of them know this, some don't. Some just don't care. Some are just angry for that moment and couldn't care less, it is subconcious and they use the word. The solution to this issue is not threads like this, even though it helps to bring the subject to light, but widespread education on human rights in an adequate manner to reduce or eliminate discrimination against homosexual people. You won't immediately enlighten people and change their behaviour through opening this thread. I'm sure some of the users who may insult others on ladder or internet in this manner on TL will forget about it in a couple hours, won't really dwell too much on it (unless the issue directly concerns them in a way). That's human nature. It is wild, chaotic and untamed. Education is the only solution, and it starts at not public schools but in families, where the roots of the children are planted at. And for that, the parents need to be well educated. So the best thing you can do about it, is that when you, the people, decide to have your kids and when they are growing up, you explain them in an appropriate age when he/she can grasp the whole situation, that there are people with different sexual preferences and that they are not to be looked down, insulted, or discriminated because of that because: a) most of the times it is not down to a choice, that sometimes one is born as and it cannot be changed, and b) even if it was a choice, it is noone's business and it is cruel and morally wrong, since you hurt someone. That's my take on the situation. | ||
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stevarius
United States1394 Posts
On October 28 2011 06:43 spree wrote: A lot of you guys are missing the point.. I used to use faggot and other slurs all the time and to me it was okay because I wasn't using them to insult gay people, I was just using them to express anger and discontent. However it's not just about your intent, the word faggot still has its homophobic origins and carries a derogatory meaning, regardless of your intent. And by using such words you are promoting those negative ideals even if it's not something you intended to do. Basically restating the OP but nobody bothered to read it because it was long. The word faggot actually has its origins as a bundle of sticks. The intent behind a word IS the meaning of the word to both parties who are involved in the conversation. Calling a person a fag in an online game has an implied meaning based on the context it's used. Call someone a fag in the dawning of puberty and you prompt them to all-out deny their status as a homosexual. Context. The intent behind a crime is quite important, I don't see why it isn't for a statement. Do you disregard intent when someone is making a sarcastic statement or when you listen to satire? | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
People already mentioned that "gay" was basically a synonym to "happy". Even The Hobbit or LotR - dont remember which - described the hobbit race as "gay", so it wasnt even that long ago  Also you need to keep in mind that the online/gaming community is made up by different people / races / nationalities. People here in Germany use vocabulary like "owned" "raped" "gay" in their normal German sentences (plz dont derail his now how this is bad^^). None of them is having the normal association between actually "owning someone" or "raping someone" or someone being homosexual. We have our German words for that. "faggot" is just a normal insult for them, and they know their opponent is likely to understand it (compared to the German: Schwuchtel, Penner, Wichser, ...). But even then, identical words can have different meanings, "cool" "bitch". And you can use completely fine words to insult someone "he's special". But on the other hand I can tell my friend "Man, you're a total retard" and it's not insulting. Context is very important. Every single word can be used to insult someone. I think my point is: It doesnt matter if you're called a "gay cannonrusher", a "fucking jerk who cannonrushes", a "fucking cannonrushing nigger" or that "you/your siblings/your parents should die of cancer/aids", or people say "very innovative strategy used, you must be a gosu". It's all something you shouldnt say to someone in a game (and probably not all all^^). I just cannot agree that we should only change those insults which refers only one specific group. Insults overall (should) have no place in a game like SC2. | ||
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
So therefore, I agree with the OP. But not just because we're gamers and want to set an example so that others take e-sports seriously...I think its kind of superficial to have that as your reason, although I can understand if that's the kind of motivation people are most likely to follow on TL (I hope not). I would suggest you avoid using those terms because you want to be a decent person, and that you avoid hurting or depressing people who are actually gay, and do get teased about it in school. Just because you don't use those terms with any ill intent towards gay people doesn't mean the person will take it that way. In general I suppose people should be nice to each other, but at the least we really should phase this out of our vocabulary and use a different word. Every little bit helps...describing change as futile is silly, every great change has started out as a small idea one person had. You may as well try, it can't hurt. | ||
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redFF
United States3910 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25975 Posts
On October 28 2011 06:43 spree wrote: A lot of you guys are missing the point.. I used to use faggot and other slurs all the time and to me it was okay because I wasn't using them to insult gay people, I was just using them to express anger and discontent. However it's not just about your intent, the word faggot still has its homophobic origins and carries a derogatory meaning, regardless of your intent. And by using such words you are promoting those negative ideals even if it's not something you intended to do. Basically restating the OP but nobody bothered to read it because it was long. There's two sides to the debate: 1. We should change our language regardless of intent. [Use another word because the possibility of offending someone in this specific case can be fatal.] 2. Intent supercedes language. [I don't intend to offend gays. If I let language supercede intent there is no end to to this - I will always be forced to cater to endless demands] Neither is right. There's no hard line anyone can draw. At least this thread is spreading information so people can justify their choice internally. | ||
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Myrkskog
Canada481 Posts
On October 28 2011 06:01 Djabanete wrote: To put it another way: Suppose that people use the name "Joe" to mean "total moron," because back in the day people thought anyone called "Joe" was a total moron. Plenty of people still do think that Joes are total morons. Your name is Joe. Happy? People use my name to describe sleezy men who visit prostitutes, I don't give a shit. I asked the prostitutes I visit and they aren't offended either. Belano wrote: I agree 100% with the OP and what TheToast was saying. I really don't think it's too much to ask that If you're going to insult someone you do it in a slightly less dickish way. Congratulations. You have just offended everyone named Dick by equating all Dicks with being dicks. | ||
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BinxyBrown
United States230 Posts
I feel like this is a lot like the way our community uses rape, I'm not gay, homophobic and I haven't been raped, and none of those words... actually no words bother me, because they are just words, I can only be offended based on the meaning of those words at the time. If I do a 1 base all in and someone I just beat calls me a cheesy gay faggot queer homo gay fag gay I'm not going to get upset, he's just venting because he lost to something he knows he shouldn't have, that takes a lot less skill for me to do than for him to defend. If I am hanging out with a friend and I give my male friend a hug and some stranger calls us homos in a very obviously derogatory way then yeah I'd be offended because they actually mean it in a way that I find offensive even as a straight man (not because I feel like gay people are inferior, but because the person who is calling me that obviously believes they are). I guess I'm just trying to say that it's about context. Let's say that it turned out Nestea was gay, and someone said he did a "gay" build and didn't deserve a win, I wouldn't get upset about the context for Nestea. If someone was saying we shouldn't watch his games because he likes men then I would be offended even though it has zero effect on me personally. | ||
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
On October 28 2011 06:58 Myrkskog wrote: People use my name to describe sleezy men who visit prostitutes, I don't give a shit. I asked the prostitutes I visit and they aren't offended either. Congratulations. You have just offended everyone named Dick by equating all Dicks with being dicks. That last example doesn't work. Being a dick is an adjective, while dick is a noun...so you can't confuse the two because they're used in different contexts. | ||
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Ayaz2810
United States2763 Posts
Also, I use these words myself. Not because I'm a homophobe (a word I will never understand. Who is actually afraid of gay people?), but because over time, I have become less sensitive to them. Probably the same as everyone else who uses them. It's pretty much the same as calling someone a retard or stupid. I don't hate mentally retarded people. Nor do I hate the stupid. I've heard homosexuals refer to straight folks as "breeders" and such. Doesn't bother me. Words are just that. My two cents. | ||
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stevarius
United States1394 Posts
On October 28 2011 07:04 ayaz2810 wrote: I'm not sure if it's related or not, but why would anyone give a shit who someone else is attracted to? Why the fuck does it even matter? If you're not a hardcore bible thumper, why would you have any aversion or disgust toward it? These names and the negative connotations should not exist in the first place. It's frustrating as shit to be honest. Also, I use these words myself. Not because I'm a homophobe (a word I will never understand. Who is actually afraid of gay people?), but because over time, I have become less sensitive to them. Probably the same as everyone else who uses them. It's pretty much the same as calling someone a retard or stupid. I don't hate mentally retarded people. Nor do I hate the stupid. I've heard homosexuals refer to straight folks as "breeders" and such. Doesn't bother me. Words are just that. My two cents. It reminds me of the South Park episode where Chef goes apeshit over the flag being racist, but the kids don't because they didn't distinguish the guy being hanged on the flag from those doing the hanging based on color/ethnicity. A humorous example I've heard is: "You don't call it gay cooking." | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On October 28 2011 06:58 Myrkskog wrote: People use my name to describe sleezy men who visit prostitutes, I don't give a shit. I asked the prostitutes I visit and they aren't offended either. Congratulations. You have just offended everyone named Dick by equating all Dicks with being dicks. The difference is that there's no existing prejudice that Johns are sleazeballs or that Dicks are dicks. The categories are distinct in people's minds. The problem lies in prejudice and not in nomenclature. "Gay" used as a pejorative basically carries all the prejudices about gay men with it. At its most removed from sexuality/gender concepts, it still means "cheap", "inferior", or "worthless." And it's also applied to things that are colorful, gaudy, or emotional in non-traditionally-masculine ways. The term as a pejorative encapsulates all the harmful prejudices we have about gay men, and that's why it's best left unsaid. | ||
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
On October 28 2011 05:54 stevarius wrote: I'd really like to know why suicide statistics are brought up in regards to using bm ingame. If you can't handle the language or the bad eggs of the community, their is always a filter built in to the game and one built between your ears. Sorry I wasn't clear. When I say that blocking the chat won't fix the problem, the problem I am referring to is the culture of bullying that exists among the young adults in the US. It's not just an issue that affects the LGBT community either, but rather one that affects millions of young adults every year. That's the real problem, usage of this kind of language on TL, within SC, or where ever else is simply a symptom of the larger problem. | ||
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Apollo_Shards
1210 Posts
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ArgusDreamer
Canada63 Posts
On October 28 2011 06:56 Chill wrote: There's two sides to the debate: 1. We should change our language regardless of intent. [Use another word because the possibility of offending someone in this specific case can be fatal.] 2. Intent supercedes language. [I don't intend to offend gays. If I let language supercede intent there is no end to to this - I will always be forced to cater to endless demands] Neither is right. There's no hard line anyone can draw. At least this thread is spreading information so people can justify their choice internally. If neither is right then why is racist slurs cracked down on very hard? Afterall they're just words Saying that is a different case is just insanely ignorant. Infact it's very damn obvious the simmilarities and even though it's the internet you don't allow it. So would it kill you to not use the N word including the fag word? You don't have to be a hypocrite just because it seems subjective ( guess what words are subjective) But why did we ban racial slurs? Also for the same suicide/violence and hurtful meanings REALIZE THAT THEN period | ||
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Grenadieris
Latvia33 Posts
Gay bashing is bad, but don't try to pretend you can change the way language is developing. Nobody has ever succeeded, it's just a waste of time. | ||
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Rostam
United States2552 Posts
On October 28 2011 07:01 radscorpion9 wrote: That last example doesn't work. Being a dick is an adjective, while dick is a noun...so you can't confuse the two because they're used in different contexts. I feel like this is a troll post, but I can't really... "Being a dick" is an adjective? | ||
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Audemed
United States893 Posts
On October 28 2011 06:42 Djabanete wrote: Your circumstances are your own, and it's admirable that you didn't take your life when you were considering it. But there's a difference between disagreeing with an act (and I share your feelings there) and sympathizing with a person who's suffering. In other words, if people are killing themselves, there's a big problem beyond the simple fact that they're killing themselves. Well, yeah, I'm not saying I have no sympathy for people who ARE in distress (you have to be pretty cold), but once they DO commit the act, that sympathy disappears. | ||
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Zandar
Netherlands1541 Posts
Like the color of your skin, your gender, things you cannot change yourself. That being said, I'm with Destiny/Debo on the offensive language department: It's words. a few letters. You should ask yourself, why does "gay" or "faggot" offend me? Instead be proud of it, of who you are, not ashamed of it. Oh and a side note, everytime I see gl hf <3, or gl hf :D, gl hf  I assume cheese and 90% of the times it's the case. Maybe that's a part of the reason people react like that too | ||
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