EPTThat said, be prepared for a lot of setbacks. People are not generally too eager to change themselves based on something they read in an internet forum, which is in most cases a good policy. In this case, though, change (if any) will be very slow, but good luck. Next time someone uses a derogatory term towards gays, blacks, or women on ladder, I'll call them out for it
The sc2 community and gay bashing - Page 11
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ChristianS
United States3187 Posts
That said, be prepared for a lot of setbacks. People are not generally too eager to change themselves based on something they read in an internet forum, which is in most cases a good policy. In this case, though, change (if any) will be very slow, but good luck. Next time someone uses a derogatory term towards gays, blacks, or women on ladder, I'll call them out for it | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
But of course, we should not bash on the homosexuals. But to change something that is unfortunately so ingrained in the gamer mentality is hard. | ||
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lundell100
Sweden232 Posts
On February 29 2012 11:08 NicolBolas wrote: This is what we call the "right to be an ass" argument. If "honestly" means acting as these people do, then they are honestly jerks and assholes. You are what you do, not what you feel. If you say homophobic shit, sling homophobic language everywhere, and fling homophobia at anyone who crosses your path on the Internet, you are homophobic. No matter how much you may think you're not, you are. Whether you like to bury it deep down beneath "stupid social conventions" or let it hang out in real life, you still are what you do. BTW: those "stupid social conventions" are called "common courtesy." It's called "not being an asshole." It's called "basic respect for the rights of others to not be treated like shit." Lastly, you are responsible for your words and actions. You do not have the right to be a gaping asshole. At least, not without consequences. This is what we call the "defeatist" argument. It says, "well, people will never change, so just let them have their words. If you take them away, they'll just get new ones." Um, no. The way this actually works is quite simple. You change society so that people are much less willing to use the word. Because words help influence language, this emboldens homosexuals and help them become a more mainstream part of society. Then someone develops a new word. However, this word is quickly shouted down by the newly embolden minority (and their new friends) and never catches on. That's how this actually works. Once you make homosexuals stop feeling like crap for being who they are, they'll be a lot more capable of standing up for themselves when you try to do it again. There's a difference between "trashtalking" and "abuse". What you're talking about is the latter, especially since the same thing happens outside of the game. If you can't see how adding your kind of "trashtalking" on top of the abuse that society piles on might be hurtful, that's just a lack of imagination on your part. It doesn't mean he doesn't have a point. It's only "abuse" if you interpret it in the wrong way and take it personal, and I think you'd have to be pretty stupid to take everything that people say on the internet personal. The CHOICE OF WORDS might come across as one thing; while the actual MEANING is a whooooole different story. People need to learn how to differentiate personal attacks from well, bullshit. | ||
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xmaine
United States30 Posts
Our society has been too caught up and putting into people in groups when we should be viewing people as individuals. | ||
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agitprop
United States37 Posts
On February 29 2012 11:23 Otolia wrote: The OP is a little bit misleading. While the statistics shows a increased likelihood in suicides for young non-heterosexual and/or non-monogamous people, there is no evidence linking these suicides to indirect verbal abuses (listening to people using gay-related insults for insulting non-gay people/thing). While indirect verbal abuses do play a negative role on these kids, it is not a predominant factor. The OP is well-thought out but the integration and acceptation of sexual differences inside our societies is a much broader subject with huge cultural intricacies. Gay-related insults are common in our day-life and thus common in everything we do online. The problem doesn't come from our community, it comes from our societies. I approve of the initiative but I think it is a waste of energy. We do not base all of our decisions on being polite on statistical regression. The evidence for the link is not 100%, but it doesn't take a person of unlimited intellect to see how its likely, and that alone suggests that one should curb one's behavior. Plus, the fact that lots of people supply the empirical experience of being pissed off by using these terms negatively is a strong indication that its just not acceptable to some of us. Who creates the social change if we do not do it? We are a society, our community can foster change within and outside it. The energy we put in here does change minds. People might respond negatively to this thread but then later realize they were being asshats and stop talking that way. Lurkers might decide I and others have a point. Proving that this energy here doesn't have a long term affect for the future would be much harder than proving a link between the negative use of "gay" and gay teen suicides. Discussion is a necessary first step of social change, imo, and trying to squelch it is a tactic endless hordes of partisans have used to preserve the status quo. I'm not happy with the status quo, so speech is, to me, an obvious first step. To date, I have probably changed many minds. My mind has also been changed by others and by and by I also become a, to me, better person. | ||
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agitprop
United States37 Posts
On February 29 2012 12:13 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I'm just not sure if people using words like faggot as an insult has the effect you think it does. When I call you a bitch, I'm not insulting female dogs, I'm insulting you. Ditto for words like cunt, fuck or otherwise. Curse words are just a way of expressing frustration. The actual meaning behind them is secondary. Also, this is the internet. People around here are stupid assholes seeking to make you miserable. If you can't take it, then this isn't the place for you. The internet is not going to change, doesn't know whether or not you're gay and by and large, isn't going to cut much slack for you if you are. Sure, there are many nice people, but there are also many vocal trolls. By the way, I'm not sure if using words like gay as an insult is the problem. I'm pretty sure the problem is that we, as humans, hate people who are different and have not yet had the need to treat homosexuals nicely pounded into our society like we did for people of different genders or colors. Also, quite a few common misconceptions tend to exacerbate the issue. Is the evidence of this thread not enough to convince you that it does in fact have an effect more powerful than you think it does? And, how did that pounding occur? Surely it started with words, not fists? Do these words count as pounding? | ||
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Brotatoes23
United States67 Posts
If you're gay the chances of you taking offense to any "gay comment" is: COMPLETELY Up to you. People use "gay" in various meanings of "stupid" a lot, and I could see that being misconstrued often. So my question: Why not start a thread about people calling others "Fat Pimply Nerds" or anything similar? This is directly to the point. This one probably hits home with a lot of Blizzard game players, maybe even more than your "Gay Stats." Even the pros can't escape that stereotype. If any were trying to hide they are gay, they could and probably are doing just that, due to the troll-nurturing environment of the internet. How bout a thread for people being called "Virgins"? Something completely concealable and very unlikely, still very personal. Though, I like to think it's rare this actually upsets someone, but in today's society, if true, they'd probably want to kill themselves. We can leave it to them to make a thread about themselves, though, right? You know you'd laugh. In response to suicides and real life gay-bashers: The people killing themselves aren't wrong for having these feelings, either, but wrong to end it because of the feelings, themselves. Blaming the gay-bashers is one thing, they are not valuing another persons life, and that's terrible. IMO, suicides are equally to blame for lacking value of their own life. Anyone who kills themself is partial to the whole problem of someone died. This is your true test as an obscure part of society. Survive, not martyr yourself out for a pity party. Most of the world thinks (knows?) it's not natural. Morals aside, you cannot reproduce human life with homosexual relations. It's as simple as that. As a human, yourself, born from sexual reproduction, you cannot hold these people as wrong if they feel that way. It IS definitely wrong to actively be trying to remove homosexual relationships from society forever. The internet does not contribute to this, though! Furthermore, you can't use adolescent bullying, done in person, and apply into an internet scenario, where no one has any preconceived notions or understandings of one another. We all vary in ages, and all aren't in the most sensitive point of our lives: High-school and College, like the real life stats you presented. (Adolescence (Sexual and mental maturing) lasts from ages 13-20 and in some cases, older.) This thread will be held ineffective for me. Though, I honestly hold true to the ideal that you can have a relationship with whoever you want! You will not limit my use of words to convey how I feel about anything or anyone, at any time. Even if it's a terrible choice of words and completely incorrect, or completely correct and makes you want to kill yourself. You're going to get my idea of you. The meaning behind certain words will vary, it's the 21st century. It's up to you to get upset, not care/ignore. It's up to you to determine if I could even have any such knowledge of you and who you are, in the first place. In the least condescending way possible: Grow a spinal chord and take it like a....Well, take it any way you can get it. ONE IMPORTANT TRUTH IN YOUR DEFENSE: 48 hours ago I did receive a 24 hour temporary ban, on the North American server, for slandering a player. The email regarding it said I was banned for saying: "Terrans OP, emo f*g" in the context of a friend just losing a game I was obsing. Someone reported it, even though I was saying it to a friend. Blizzard actually did something about it within a matter of hours! That surprised the hell out of me, but I don't think it will stop me from being immature and slandering others the same way. | ||
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Kerwin
United States220 Posts
Obviously when you have a community like TL you can kinda choose who's in your community (i.e. no gaybashers) and speech is censored heavily in this regard. I don't think that reporting people for hate speech will do anything to curb people's hate, so ultimately I don't think that what the OP suggests is useful. If a sc2 player was openly gay, I think that would be great, but unless it was a player who was already popular, I don't think it would change the mindset of the sc2 community very much. | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
I am gay myself, but I do not get offended by these insults, I am just a little disappointed at such distasteful insults. Yes, the gaming community is the new war community in terms of insults but we have to be a bit more creative. But here is a problem with homophobia, the people who just hate gay people no matter what are disappearing. Now we have the people going "I am fine with gay people only if they do not act 'gay'." which frankly disturbs me. It is okay to be a black man, just get rid of that ebonic accent. | ||
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masterbreti
Korea (South)2711 Posts
On February 29 2012 14:53 Shiragaku wrote: Words like "gay" and raped have always been around. Look at the Viking invasions of England, people would often yell insults about "I raped your ass last night" or "This guy likes to be a woman." Just making this clear. Vikings were uneducated, barbarians who murdered and pillaged their entire lives. and at least from what I understand anyways, we don't do that. We shouldn't use that an an excuse to hurl those insults at another, since we are supposed to be civil. I would not mind if people used those insults, but only if they are a viking from 500-600 years ago, otherwise I don't find it acceptable. Gay bashing is a clear problem in the gaming circles, and its pretty rough on many who are gay themselves. It may not affect you, but it effects others. I think we can all learn that being manner is the way to improve our scene's reputation, as already we have a fairly good one too. In the words of the immortal White-Ra "More GG more skill," Being mannered is one thing that I think we all should be, and being able to unite, dispite our differences. Is one thing that makes the sc2 community unique. We are black, white, gay, asian, tall, short, fat, skinny, american, european, we are everyone. We shouldn't forget that, no matter what. We all share the same passion for sc2, when I look to my right in a sc2 lan, I see another person passionate about sc2, It doesn't matter that I may not be able to speak with him in the same tongue, or be able to ralte to him in any way. It doesn't matter because we have one thing in common, sc2. And thats all I need to know that that guy/girl is someone I respect. Sorry for rambling, but you get my point, No hate :D | ||
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agitprop
United States37 Posts
On February 29 2012 14:30 Kerwin wrote: Threads like this always hit me wrong... I don't know why. The problem with hate speech is the "hate" not the "speech" If you were somehow able to eliminate the words "fag" and "gay" from the vocabulary of every person on the internet, as long as the hate still exists, they will find something else to call you. I feel for you, I really do, and I don't have the answer to your problem, but I don't see what this will accomplish. The problem you describe has 2 causes. One is that the internet is anonymous and without reprecussions and thus people on the internet who don't care about gay people are going to say whatever the fuck they want to, and I bet most of the people that would use the word "fag" or "gay" probably aren't going to care what a gay person has to say about it (especially on the internet). The second cause is that a good part of the world thinks that homosexuality is immoral or evil or wrong and feel no remorse to disrespect gay people. So if a large portion of the world hates gay people (even though few do so openly irl) those that even feel remotely hateful towards gay people will be exteremely hateful on the internet. Obviously when you have a community like TL you can kinda choose who's in your community (i.e. no gaybashers) and speech is censored heavily in this regard. I don't think that reporting people for hate speech will do anything to curb people's hate, so ultimately I don't think that what the OP suggests is useful. If a sc2 player was openly gay, I think that would be great, but unless it was a player who was already popular, I don't think it would change the mindset of the sc2 community very much. The problem is the hate, speech fosters it. That is the critical point. Orwell understood this when he was talking about using language to control the proles in 1984. If you eliminate a word, you can't discuss an idea. The converse is, if you use a word in a certain way, you reinforce the idea. The power is up to you. My point is not to eliminate a word. My point is to stop using a word hatefully. The point I'm trying to accomplish is to stop reinforcing the idea that gay is bad in the minds of two groups of people. Those that are gay themselves, and those that are abusing gay people but are not gay themselves. Oddly, or probably not in the history of human behavior, gays who are taught that gay is bad to an extreme degree tend to abuse gays as well (think Marcus Bachman?). Words really have the power to shape identity, politics, morality, community, behavior, etc. The great orators, politicos, cult leaders, MLK jr, Ghandi, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, nearly every movie, etc, understand this. Change that matters and is "progressive" (ie for the better) really begins with discussion which requires speech and often a change in how we talk and Madison, Jefferson, Franklin, et al understood this, too. So yes, eliminating hate is the ultimate goal, using speech to ask others to not use speech in a way that is hurting that goal seems to me to be a good idea. Also, people do not get on the internet, interact with others, log off, and go back to being exactly who they were. The internet may be more untamed and wild, but reputations are built up on various forums and in various communities, and we want to protect them. People are beginning to understand this. And, the internet is also a great tool for putting ideas out there simply because people are more willing to be honest. I would argue that the 8 states and some tens of nations that now allow gay marriage all did so /after/ the internet became ubiquitous for a reason. You see it as an irrelevant medium for discussing ideas? I see it as absolutely essential. Discussions like these, I believe, are the second most powerful political tool for disenfranchised groups after personal relationships in the modern era. (Since civil dissension has lost some of its shock effect). | ||
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agitprop
United States37 Posts
On February 29 2012 14:11 Brotatoes23 wrote: How about these chances: If you're ANYONE, the chances of you being called "gay" in SC2 (Or any online game, forum, or chat room ever) on a daily basis is roughly 100% If you're gay the chances of you taking offense to any "gay comment" is: COMPLETELY Up to you. People use "gay" in various meanings of "stupid" a lot, and I could see that being misconstrued often. So my question: Why not start a thread about people calling others "Fat Pimply Nerds" or anything similar? This is directly to the point. This one probably hits home with a lot of Blizzard game players, maybe even more than your "Gay Stats." Even the pros can't escape that stereotype. If any were trying to hide they are gay, they could and probably are doing just that, due to the troll-nurturing environment of the internet. How bout a thread for people being called "Virgins"? Something completely concealable and very unlikely, still very personal. Though, I like to think it's rare this actually upsets someone, but in today's society, if true, they'd probably want to kill themselves. We can leave it to them to make a thread about themselves, though, right? You know you'd laugh. In response to suicides and real life gay-bashers: The people killing themselves aren't wrong for having these feelings, either, but wrong to end it because of the feelings, themselves. Blaming the gay-bashers is one thing, they are not valuing another persons life, and that's terrible. IMO, suicides are equally to blame for lacking value of their own life. Anyone who kills themself is partial to the whole problem of someone died. This is your true test as an obscure part of society. Survive, not martyr yourself out for a pity party. Most of the world thinks (knows?) it's not natural. Morals aside, you cannot reproduce human life with homosexual relations. It's as simple as that. As a human, yourself, born from sexual reproduction, you cannot hold these people as wrong if they feel that way. It IS definitely wrong to actively be trying to remove homosexual relationships from society forever. The internet does not contribute to this, though! Furthermore, you can't use adolescent bullying, done in person, and apply into an internet scenario, where no one has any preconceived notions or understandings of one another. We all vary in ages, and all aren't in the most sensitive point of our lives: High-school and College, like the real life stats you presented. (Adolescence (Sexual and mental maturing) lasts from ages 13-20 and in some cases, older.) This thread will be held ineffective for me. Though, I honestly hold true to the ideal that you can have a relationship with whoever you want! You will not limit my use of words to convey how I feel about anything or anyone, at any time. Even if it's a terrible choice of words and completely incorrect, or completely correct and makes you want to kill yourself. You're going to get my idea of you. The meaning behind certain words will vary, it's the 21st century. It's up to you to get upset, not care/ignore. It's up to you to determine if I could even have any such knowledge of you and who you are, in the first place. In the least condescending way possible: Grow a spinal chord and take it like a....Well, take it any way you can get it. ONE IMPORTANT TRUTH IN YOUR DEFENSE: 48 hours ago I did receive a 24 hour temporary ban, on the North American server, for slandering a player. The email regarding it said I was banned for saying: "Terrans OP, emo f*g" in the context of a friend just losing a game I was obsing. Someone reported it, even though I was saying it to a friend. Blizzard actually did something about it within a matter of hours! That surprised the hell out of me, but I don't think it will stop me from being immature and slandering others the same way. And your behavior will continue to spread, strengthen, and reinforce the idea that being gay is wrong, and that is completely up to you, as well. | ||
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besteady
United States75 Posts
On October 28 2011 04:24 Rekrul wrote: close and ban, retarded op Absolutely disgusting, you are a sad human being. And so are the rest of you that are doing some mental gymnastics to try to make it seem like you are being attacked, and are mocking the op because he feels that people do not deserve to have to face prejudice in their daily lives. Think of it this way, how much harm does it do to you to not use homophobic slurs? and how much harm is done to those whom the slurs are used against? The second can have much, much bigger consequences. And the argument that "this is the internet, get used to it or dont come on in the first place" is a very bad one because being white males (as most of you are) you know nothing of prejudice in the first place, and the internet is tailored to you because you are the dominate force on it. | ||
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tronix
United States95 Posts
however this does not mean i condone gay bashing, but lets keep "gay bashing" confined to actually abusing an actual gay person. if it happens to be someone hating on someone they know to be gay then they should burn. the community, mainly comprised of young males will always be vulgar and i think it is only really important to harshly enforce language in professional settings. i applaud the effort to approach this ever rising agenda, but really...be practical. sort of relevant picture, maybe...but w/e + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NzT60.jpg) | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
I think people taking deep offense at random comments and especially the opinion of strangers, as adults, is a much bigger problem than arguing semantics and supposedly trying to change language. I was bullied hardcore through eight years of grade school because I went from 1st grade to 3rd grade while already starting school a year early. The entire class was picking on me basically non stop. When I look back, I'm absolutely thankful for the experience because it ultimately made me stop being a sissy and stand up for myself. Today, I don't give a flying fuck about what anyone thinks and it has made my life so much better I can't even believe it. Suddenly I don't need to drive a fancy car, or look a certain way, or act a certain way, or suck up to people, because I just don't care. It's awesome. The world out there is harsh and cold. It's hard for cats and dogs and it's hard for humans, too. Enveloping every "special" person in cotton is not only unrealistic but in fact detrimental to their own personal development. | ||
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agitprop
United States37 Posts
On March 01 2012 05:26 Kickboxer wrote: During teenage years people get bullied for an extreme variety of traits and reasons. You don't have to be gay to get bullied, you can also be smart, stupid, weird, quiet, loud, odd, foreign, small, gigantic, the list goes on. Are you going to ban all these words from the internet? And then? You will ban these words from books, too? I think people taking deep offense at random comments and especially the opinion of strangers, as adults, is a much bigger problem than arguing semantics and supposedly trying to change language. I was bullied hardcore through eight years of grade school because I went from 1st grade to 3rd grade while already starting school a year early. The entire class was picking on me basically non stop. When I look back, I'm absolutely thankful for the experience because it ultimately made me stop being a sissy and stand up for myself. Today, I don't give a flying fuck about what anyone thinks and it has made my life so much better I can't even believe it. Suddenly I don't need to drive a fancy car, or look a certain way, or act a certain way, or suck up to people, because I just don't care. It's awesome. The world out there is harsh and cold. It's hard for cats and dogs and it's hard for humans, too. Enveloping every "special" person in cotton is not only unrealistic but in fact detrimental to their own personal development. There are people bullied to an extreme extent that are not gay, and yes I think that is wrong, and yes I would like that to change. Gay people typically have it worse in that they are often abused by their own families and continue to get shortchanged by authorities in their lives all the way to the grave. If a little teasing makes you more self-confident in the long run, what does a metric ton of bullying do? Destroy your pscyhe. The reason you don't understand that is because you were not subjected to the extreme levels of isolation, fear, self-loathing, humilation, and emotional anguish that some of these kids go through. If you did, you'd understand I'm not suggesting wrapping up all kids in cotton. It is like if I told the soldier suffering from PTSD that he was being a sissy (you're implying all these people who are taking such offense are sissies, btw.) I have met so many gay kids whose parents disowned them, who became homeless at a young age or were sent to ex-gay camps for months and in some cases years. I would say their experience roughly equates to losing your whole family at once, and most of society understands how disgusting that is. These experiences are not typical high school bullying. The culmination of all these factors together becomes an overwhelming amount of damage to these gay teenagers. As they become adults and try to heal, people still reinforce the idea and make it more difficult. It does destroy lives and I would like that to change. | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
Actually, chats and forums over the internet are like windows to someone's thoughts. See it like that and then ask yourself: "do I really care if someone thinks something in his head ?" "Yes but internet is not thoughts, it's written". The thing is internet grants anonymity. Why don't you just speak your mind full of hatred in the street ? Because you fear people reactions. The internet almost completely remove this threat creating the opportunity to say those thoughts and therefore I view it as a small window to someone's head. What can we do ? I don't know specifically, but what I'm sure of is that the only way is to remove such thoughts and this can only happen by curing things at its source. For school and bullying... this is harsh and a bigger problem than the internet imo. | ||
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Yoduh
United States216 Posts
http://boingboing.net/2012/02/29/meet-the-sexist-racist-pigs-o.html Just because it's the norm doesn't mean it's right or defendable. I call people 'gay' and a 'faggot' all the time but I don't mean any actual harm against someones sexuality, but if I knew I was hurting them that way I would definitely refrain from using those words. It's like how you can be white and call your white and possibly very close black friends 'nigger' but would you use that word around other black people in person like at a LAN or tournament event? You'd probably get kicked out. So why the double standard with homosexuals? I think it exists because you can't always tell who is gay just by looking at them so you don't know if you're saying something hurtful or not. I don't think the gay bashing will ever go away from video gaming but we should at least man up and admit when we make immature comments that hurt someone whether we mean it to or not and not just excuse ourselves by saying it's simply "part of our culture" | ||
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sofakng
100 Posts
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