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On February 29 2012 05:07 agitprop wrote:
The worst part about most of these replies is that they rationalize reasons to maintain personal behavior patterns, without understanding how that applies in the larger cultural context. Take a moment to try to understand why you shouldn't just consider the event in isolation..
This is an exceedingly important point which all of the people saying "it doesn't matter, it's not even a slur just a word" are missing. The word perpetuates a trend. The trend is a bad thing. Thinking that you can do it because you feel as though your own ideas on it supersede what it(actually) means, that is what everyone else saying it thinks.
And because of this, "fag" has become an acceptable term. Congratulations, you've just introduced a whole new divisive slur to the English language. Good job there.
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On February 28 2012 22:30 ODKStevez wrote:
You are not very used to the internet. It is full of jerks that it is impossible to get rid of them. People be real dicks online cause they can hide who they really are. You just have to ignore it. There have been more offencive things said than this but I do know where you are coming from.
have you ever considered its less about hiding behind the internet and more about not having to worry about stupid social conventions or worry about awkward meetings afterwards. people are a lot more honest on the internet, now if you get offended by words thats a totally different discussion but i think its unfair to label honesty as being a jerk.
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On February 29 2012 10:15 Praetorial wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 05:07 agitprop wrote:
The worst part about most of these replies is that they rationalize reasons to maintain personal behavior patterns, without understanding how that applies in the larger cultural context. Take a moment to try to understand why you shouldn't just consider the event in isolation.. This is an exceedingly important point which all of the people saying "it doesn't matter, it's not even a slur just a word" are missing. The word perpetuates a trend. The trend is a bad thing. Thinking that you can do it because you feel as though your own ideas on it supersede what it(actually) means, that is what everyone else saying it thinks. And because of this, "fag" has become an acceptable term. Congratulations, you've just introduced a whole new divisive slur to the English language. Good job there.
Trends begin, and trends end. It's highly unlikely that 200 years from now a "fag" will still mean "homosexual", just like 200 years before it meant something different (cigarette? elevator? forget which one)
And converesely, if we did away with that word, we'd just get a new slur/actual word which will slowly become the norm in the place of "fag".
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I think you're making this out to be more dramatic than it really is.
"Here's the problem, behind your screen, the network, the server, the network again into some other computer in another nation or maybe just across the street there is another person. A person who you just hurt."
- This is just something that I don't buy. Like it or not, trashtalking is a part of the game. When someone is trashtalking you and calling you gay, their goal is most probably to get in your head and get you aggrevated; not to express their hatred against homosexuals. And associating trashtalk from a chat in Starcraft 2 with suicide just seems extremely naive to me.
People who get offended by trashtalk clearly don't realize that trashtalk is just that: trash.
Trashtalk over the internet is comparable to jokes. For example: if everyone thought that Ricky Gervais was serious, everyone would hate him. Luckily, people know how to take a joke since it's meant to be funny, just as trashtalk is meant to get you mad and distracted.
AND: In the heat of battle people say all kinds of crazy things.
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While you have fun by being polite there are others who have fun by being trolls, now I don't want to bring trolling statistics up but I think thats past the point. Anyways, don't take offense to these trolls. Self respect is the best remedy to any problem 
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On February 29 2012 10:34 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 22:30 ODKStevez wrote:
You are not very used to the internet. It is full of jerks that it is impossible to get rid of them. People be real dicks online cause they can hide who they really are. You just have to ignore it. There have been more offencive things said than this but I do know where you are coming from. have you ever considered its less about hiding behind the internet and more about not having to worry about stupid social conventions or worry about awkward meetings afterwards. people are a lot more honest on the internet, now if you get offended by words thats a totally different discussion but i think its unfair to label honesty as being a jerk.
This is what we call the "right to be an ass" argument. If "honestly" means acting as these people do, then they are honestly jerks and assholes.
You are what you do, not what you feel. If you say homophobic shit, sling homophobic language everywhere, and fling homophobia at anyone who crosses your path on the Internet, you are homophobic. No matter how much you may think you're not, you are. Whether you like to bury it deep down beneath "stupid social conventions" or let it hang out in real life, you still are what you do.
BTW: those "stupid social conventions" are called "common courtesy." It's called "not being an asshole." It's called "basic respect for the rights of others to not be treated like shit."
Lastly, you are responsible for your words and actions. You do not have the right to be a gaping asshole. At least, not without consequences.
On February 29 2012 10:50 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 10:15 Praetorial wrote:On February 29 2012 05:07 agitprop wrote:
The worst part about most of these replies is that they rationalize reasons to maintain personal behavior patterns, without understanding how that applies in the larger cultural context. Take a moment to try to understand why you shouldn't just consider the event in isolation.. This is an exceedingly important point which all of the people saying "it doesn't matter, it's not even a slur just a word" are missing. The word perpetuates a trend. The trend is a bad thing. Thinking that you can do it because you feel as though your own ideas on it supersede what it(actually) means, that is what everyone else saying it thinks. And because of this, "fag" has become an acceptable term. Congratulations, you've just introduced a whole new divisive slur to the English language. Good job there. Trends begin, and trends end. It's highly unlikely that 200 years from now a "fag" will still mean "homosexual", just like 200 years before it meant something different (cigarette? elevator? forget which one) And converesely, if we did away with that word, we'd just get a new slur/actual word which will slowly become the norm in the place of "fag".
This is what we call the "defeatist" argument. It says, "well, people will never change, so just let them have their words. If you take them away, they'll just get new ones."
Um, no.
The way this actually works is quite simple. You change society so that people are much less willing to use the word. Because words help influence language, this emboldens homosexuals and help them become a more mainstream part of society. Then someone develops a new word. However, this word is quickly shouted down by the newly embolden minority (and their new friends) and never catches on.
That's how this actually works. Once you make homosexuals stop feeling like crap for being who they are, they'll be a lot more capable of standing up for themselves when you try to do it again.
This is just something that I don't buy. Like it or not, trashtalking is a part of the game. When someone is trashtalking you and calling you gay, their goal is most probably to get in your head and get you aggrevated; not to express their hatred against homosexuals. And associating trashtalk from a chat in Starcraft 2 with suicide just seems extremely naive to me.
There's a difference between "trashtalking" and "abuse". What you're talking about is the latter, especially since the same thing happens outside of the game.
If you can't see how adding your kind of "trashtalking" on top of the abuse that society piles on might be hurtful, that's just a lack of imagination on your part. It doesn't mean he doesn't have a point.
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So would it be close-minded of me to say that gay people can call me straight all they want?
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The OP is a little bit misleading. While the statistics shows a increased likelihood in suicides for young non-heterosexual and/or non-monogamous people, there is no evidence linking these suicides to indirect verbal abuses (listening to people using gay-related insults for insulting non-gay people/thing). While indirect verbal abuses do play a negative role on these kids, it is not a predominant factor. The OP is well-thought out but the integration and acceptation of sexual differences inside our societies is a much broader subject with huge cultural intricacies.
Gay-related insults are common in our day-life and thus common in everything we do online. The problem doesn't come from our community, it comes from our societies. I approve of the initiative but I think it is a waste of energy.
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There's really no reason left as to why people should continue calling others gay/fags. We're trying to create a more progressive, open society...so what reason could you possibly have for being *for* the use of slurs that are meant to demean homosexuals? Or to use the term "gay" as a pejorative?
Gay/bisexual/transgendered people obviously have a hard time as it is, and like the OP noted their suicide rates are higher due to all the abuse they have to endure. Do you really want to be the proverbial "straw that broke the camels back"? Do you really want to contribute to that atmosphere of hostility, just because you feel its your right to use such terms in whichever way you please, regardless of how painful it may be for others? Of course you have a right to say things. That doesn't mean you should do it...and these defeatist arguments of "its the internet, get used to it" are sheer nonsense. How can you just say "its bound to happen" and absolve all personal responsibility for *your* actions? What other people do doesn't matter. *You* can make things better regardless of how others choose to behave.
Just talking to the hypothetical pro-slur person here . Now I'm all flustered lol
On February 29 2012 11:12 Perseverance wrote:
So would it be close-minded of me to say that gay people can call me straight all they want?
It depends on context of course. I don't think gay people have a problem being referred to as "gay", obviously. Its when tactics or strategies are referred to in that way that the term becomes used as a pejorative, thus insulting the group.
If they used the word straight in the same way, you could rightly be offended. But otherwise the argument is kind of a non-sequitur.
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Wasn't there a point in time where being called a geek or a nerd was considered a very offensive term but now people embrace the term and say proudly that they are nerds and it's completely lost it's effect as an insult.
I've always sort of felt the harder we try to blacklist words and remove them from our language as offensive the longer they keep their ability to hurt us if we were suddenly all to stop treating terms like fag as a bad/hurtful term then it would lose it's ability as an insult.
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On February 29 2012 09:39 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 20:22 agitprop wrote:On February 28 2012 18:21 Ballistixz wrote:
i am so sick of seeing this argument on pretty much every site i go to. the use of the words "faggot" or "gay" is ONLY harmful if YOU make it out to be harmful. its a word, why let a word get to you so badly? especialy when 90% of the time the use of those 2 words has nothing to do with sexuality?
if you let those words anger you then guess what? you are satsifying the person who insulted you. that is EXACTLY what they want from you. when someone insults you they WANT to hurt you, they WANT to make u cry and they WANT to make you feel bad. that is what a fucking insult is.... when u call someone a "bitch" it is no diffrent from calling them a "faggot". when u call someone a "whore" it is no diffrent from calling him gay. even something as small as saying "your a idiot" or "your a moron" has the same exact goal which is to make u feel bad about who you are.
so the best thing to do is LET IT THE FUCK GO. seriously, stop letting them get to you or the insulters will only insult you more. why? because they now know what buttons to push to make u mad. dont let them get to you and just ignore it... there is no reason to bump this thread and no reason for it to have existed in the first place.
there will always be someone that insults you because they dont feel good about there own self. because of that they will personally attack you to make you feel as bad as they are feeling, but if you ignore that and dont let it bother you then the insultor has failed at his goal. the person that insulted you will feel even worse about himself because he could not make you feel as bad as he is feeling. you are still happy and he is still in a bad mood, u have won. so why give them what they want? by making threads like these u are publically saying "HERE IS MY BUTTON! PLEASE PUSH IT SO U CAN MAKE ME FEEL BAD!"
just let it go... I feel like you didn't read my post, but the short answer is, it is not just words. The words reinforce an idea which is grounded with important meaning about social standing, acceptance, and interaction with others. And that translates into real world advantages and disadvantages, and is one of the primary foundations for people's behavior. So, its a lot more than just words. I also addressed the let it the fuck go argument, citing how oppressed communities responded once the oppression was "lifted". You don't just automatically become a different person with a different worldview. Maybe you didn't pick up on that argument. My point was you don't understand why you can't just "let it go" because you didn't spend your formative years in that manner. There will always be people who challenge you with insults or otherwise in order to improve social standing or for other complicated reasons, yes. You also have to learn to deal with them, but when you're part of a class so thoroughly, so effectively, marginalized, it is beyond the norm, the typical, the stamina and fortitude of the average human being. Using those words just piles more on top of that. In Malcolm Gladwell's book, "Outliers" he makes a convincing argument about how people who tend to do well later in life were taught important thinks about themselves and how to modify their world and came from solid backgrounds. Agitprop to be honest no i did not fully read your argument because i really do not care and i was not refering to you directly anyway. ive been called names all of my life, every name in the book even including fag/gay even though i am straight. if you honestly cant let stuff like that go then that is your own problem because the fact of life is you will ALWAYS be called a faggot/gay/whatever and no argument typed up on the internet will stop that. u seriously have to learn to deal with it. a random post on the internet will not change a entire soceity. i do understand these words may hurt your feelings, but THEY WILL NOT KILL YOU. now i can smell a "well what about the ppl that killed themselves because of the name calling?" argument coming so i will say this before that starts.... the only person that makes the decision to suicide is yourself. my views on suiciding in general is something saved for another thread, but lets just say i do not sypathize at all with someone weak minded enough to off themselves because of a damn 3 letter word. you can call me cruel/heartless/souless or whatever you want but guess what? i dont care because that is the way i feel about the situation. the way i personally see it is that if you let those words hurt you then you must not be proud of who you are. show some pride and not let it hurt you. a word means only what you make it out to be. fag means ciggaret in another country and gay means to be happy. pick a definition for the word and roll with it.
I just think you don't really know what oppression and fear that absolutely no one loves you feels like to the degree I'm speaking of. So you equate the degree of your experiences with those of others and miss the point entirely.
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On February 29 2012 11:28 HiTeK532 wrote:
Wasn't there a point in time where being called a geek or a nerd was considered a very offensive term but now people embrace the term and say proudly that they are nerds and it's completely lost it's effect as an insult.
I've always sort of felt the harder we try to blacklist words and remove them from our language as offensive the longer they keep their ability to hurt us if we were suddenly all to stop treating terms like fag as a bad/hurtful term then it would lose it's ability as an insult.
I don't want to blacklist the word, I want to ask you to not use it in a derogatory manner. I would argue that nerd and geek (the words) helped support the idea that nerds and geeks were to be admired because we started using the words in a different way in positive or neutral contexts. If gay was only being used in a positive or neutral sense, it would be a different discussion. I'm all for using gay positively. I'm all for embracing negative terms and making them positive.
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On February 28 2012 18:38 ThatGuy89 wrote:
funny. i played a guy on ladder yesterday and he started by saying 'gl hf ♥'
happened to me too, but that feels really good and manner to me if they do things like this, i don't like ppl who say "FUCK YOU" at the start of the game after i typed "gl hf" (which happened yesterday on ladder)
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Society as a whole don't like what they don't understand. This is the pattern that we've seen for centuries throught America's history and every other countries past. People are strayed from not creating their own opinion based on other things such as what religion and family have raised them to believe out right.
My point: Society believes that things that are not around their norm should be seen as akward and it isn't wrong to bash it. I say for all those people who have ever said something harsh to a homosexual male or female to talk someone of different sexuality and let them tell you about who they are. People from different sexual background or who believe in something different aren't that much different from you overall and they deserve the same respect you believe you deserve.
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On February 29 2012 11:37 NexCa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 18:38 ThatGuy89 wrote:
funny. i played a guy on ladder yesterday and he started by saying 'gl hf ♥' happened to me too, but that feels really good and manner to me if they do things like this, i don't like ppl who say "FUCK YOU" at the start of the game after i typed "gl hf" (which happened yesterday on ladder)
i can honestly say if someone started off a ladder game with FUCK YOU id probably laugh. maybe im just thick skinned but i can honestly say that a person who i will never meet again is not really gonna be able to do anything that offends me. i guess this is why i dont care if people are dicks on the internet, too much time spent on 4chan has desensitized me
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On February 29 2012 11:28 HiTeK532 wrote:
Wasn't there a point in time where being called a geek or a nerd was considered a very offensive term but now people embrace the term and say proudly that they are nerds and it's completely lost it's effect as an insult.
I've always sort of felt the harder we try to blacklist words and remove them from our language as offensive the longer they keep their ability to hurt us if we were suddenly all to stop treating terms like fag as a bad/hurtful term then it would lose it's ability as an insult.
I think people still fundamentally should have a responsibility not to use those terms. The gay community can try to fight against the harassment by reworking the term with a positive spin, but then I don't think its the term that matters as much as the message of "I hate you for what you are" that's behind it. Regardless of how they alter the term, if people continue to use it as a pejorative, or switch to a new pejorative, I think they'd feel just as ostracized. So the solution really lies in the people that they interact with. Of course they can resist it, to a certain extent...but I think the ultimate solution is that people have to stop using these terms, and more broadly drop the attitude that creates them.
I'm pretty sure geek and nerd can be used in negative contexts - and I think in the moment that they're insulted, a person's effort to try to redefine the word in a positive sense isn't going to overcome the feeling of isolation that is associated by how other people use the term.
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Faggot has so much more of a negative context than nerd or geek. It's incredibly derogative, and can never not be derogative, unless you're actually talking about a 19th century british cigarette. You don't just go up to your friend and say "Whats up faggot", at least not from where I'm from, and I can't see how anybody would see it differently.
Thats so gay is a bit different (and probably considerably less derogatory), but I don't want to get into it.
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I'm just not sure if people using words like faggot as an insult has the effect you think it does.
When I call you a bitch, I'm not insulting female dogs, I'm insulting you. Ditto for words like cunt, fuck or otherwise. Curse words are just a way of expressing frustration. The actual meaning behind them is secondary.
Also, this is the internet. People around here are stupid assholes seeking to make you miserable. If you can't take it, then this isn't the place for you. The internet is not going to change, doesn't know whether or not you're gay and by and large, isn't going to cut much slack for you if you are. Sure, there are many nice people, but there are also many vocal trolls.
By the way, I'm not sure if using words like gay as an insult is the problem. I'm pretty sure the problem is that we, as humans, hate people who are different and have not yet had the need to treat homosexuals nicely pounded into our society like we did for people of different genders or colors. Also, quite a few common misconceptions tend to exacerbate the issue.
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i see a lot of people in this thread defending their prerogative to be an asshole on the internet.
no one is trying to tell you that you don't have that (dubious) right. but why so many words and posts just to explain how you LOVE being a dick to people, and that the community is always going to be hurtful so it's okay to be a bully and that's just the way it is.
seriously, take some responsibility for your own actions. we must be living in a golden age of nerd privilege if you lot don't know what it feels like to be picked on, bullied, tormented, and mocked. high school anyone? god, for me it goes back as far as i can remember. yeah, i grew a thick skin. but does that mean i enjoy being insulted for my gender, sexual orientation, choice of hobbies, or whatever?
so get off those high horses. words can hurt, and it's not the fault of the person that was hurt -- if you're the one throwing out the insults, you need to recognize that you're having an impact.
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On February 29 2012 05:20 agitprop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 23:12 Archybaldie wrote:I'm not sure if im going to do a good job putting my thoughts across but here goes; Through out multiple games, communitys etc i've always had my sexuality questioned. Due to a lot of my "mannerisms" can occasionally be concidered stereotypically "gay" but it didnt bother me if people thought i was gay. (Also it ended up being a good way to weed out people who were actually offensive to people that were gay, lesbian etc.) But the easiest way i found of stopping people using the term "gay" as an insult is to just stop being offended by it. Just like if someone were call me "black". I wouldn't find it offensive, its just incorrect. I've found its the exact same with being called a fag etc. Its not offensive its just incorrect. Lets apply this to starcraft, if somebody goes around calling people "fags", "gay" or "homos". If that person gets little to no response. That term as an insult loses a large portion of its "power". These people tend to be trying to illicit a response. Trying to make someone angry. Going off on them on why they are wrong why they shouldnt be doing something ends up being a great response. So if one day "Johnny mc angry pants" goes onto the ladder has 10 games in a row where he starts the game with a "ur a fag" and gets little to no response (or generally a response that has nothing to do with the supposed insult). They become less inclined in the future to use that insult because its not producing the desired effect. So if say the 11th game is vs a teen who is in that tricky period questioning their sexuality "johnny mc angry pants" is less likley to start the game with "ur a fag". Or thats just how it has worked in the past with me. Btw i start games with a "GL HF Sir! :D" (occasionally i get corrected and reply with a GL HF Madame! " So i occasionally get the "fag" response too. When your mom told you to stop being offended by a handful of kids calling you names, she was arming you well against them. When the gay kid's mom, father, sisters, brothers, grandparents, etc threw him-her out, disowned him-her, fought incessently with him-her, told him-her they were going to hell, send him-her to ex-gay camp, etc.. When the principal didn't listen because some other dude bashed the gay kid's nuts in for being gay, or sexually harassed him, or calls him a queer every day, when the gay kid lives in constant humiliation, when you spend your whole formative years feeling like a spy in your own life, an interloper, then its a little different. You can't just flip into "I won't be offended by that" mode. You try, it takes effort, you heal slowly over the years, but the original damage is there. In the meantime, using the words this way encourages others who use the words this way to continue to hurt children and teenagers, and you yourself look indistinguishable from them, because perceiving intent is difficult. Do you really want to be that person?
My main point was, as a straight male if i dont take offense to somebody calling me "gay" or a "faggot". Then that person becomes less inclined to use it as an insult. So when they meet somebody who is gay who has been through that experience. I wasn't saying that a gay man should switch into the "i won't be offended by that" mode. I was saying that straight men and older gay men should try to make a point of not being offended by it and not seeing it as an "insult" to be called gay.
Being gay isnt an insult, being called gay isnt an insult.
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