Hi everyone, this is a second attempt at this thread, the first one was closed by chill and this one is being opened with his approval after we discussed some conditions. As such, I will be bringing cited sources for the statistics and will try to keep a calm tone. Starcraft 2 is a community game, your ladder position means nothing unless there are other people on it and when you play a match there is another gamer there, it's kind of the point. As such, Starcraft will always be as strong or as weak as it's community.
I start every game with the following: "gl hf ♥", why do I do it? Because it reminds me it's just a game, that I'm just here to have fun. For me it's a great way to reduce stress and get into the game in a good mood. Most of the time I get good nature replies, however, I also get a lot of gay bashing responses. For wishing people a good game.
Now, we all know these response, and their likes, and how common they are (especially if you're winning). And I would ask you to consider, starcraft is about playing with other people, it's you and another gamer playing together. Yes, you're playing a competitive game. Yes, you're trying to beat the other guy. But you're both part of the same community, and in the end of the day, your'e playing together.
In the latest researches gay people are apparently about four percent of the population [1] That means that in your division about four people are gay, that from the about 250 players in GSL history, about 10 are gay, and they deserve your respect. They are as much a part of our community as any other gamer and deserve no different treatment then any other player.
So what? you say. It's just harmless name calling. Here's the problem, behind your screen, the network, the server, the network again into some other computer in another nation or maybe just across the street there is another person. A person who you just hurt. Just another hit in a life with more than a few, and he just wanted to play a game online, and have some fun. And then we have this:
36.5 % of GLB youth grades 9-12 have attempted suicide. 20.5% of those attempts resulting in medical care. (Robin, L., Brener, N.D., Donahue, S.F., Hack, T., Hale, K., Goodenow, C. (2002). Associations between health risk behaviors and opposite-, same-, and both-sex sexual partners in representative samples of Vermont and Massachusetts high school students. Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine, 156(4): pp. 349-55.)
Gay and lesbian youth are 2 to 3 times more likely to attempt suicide than heterosexual young people. (Rotheram–Borus, M., Hunter, J., & Rosario, M. (1994). Suicidal behavior and gay-related stress among gay and bisexual male adolescents. Journal of adolescent research, 9 (4), pp. 498 – 508.) 91.5% of LGBT students report hearing homophobic remarks, such as “faggot,” “dyke” or the expression “that’s so gay” frequently or often.
Students who experience frequent verbal harassment because of their sexual orientation are less likely than other students to plan to attend college. 13.4% of LGBT students who report verbal harassment do not intend to go to college, twice the figure of those LGBT students who report only rare or less frequent verbal harassment (6.7%).
"New research reveals that rising rates of suicide in LGBT young adults has less to do with their “minority sexual orientation” status, and everything to do with the social stigma and negative societal responses that LGBT teens face on a daily basis as a result of gender expression outside our accepted norms. Consistent research over the past few years has shown that LGBT youths are disproportionately bullied, and that the effects of that bullying increase a risk of suicide that continues into adulthood."
Are you a recognized pro-gamer? Are you gay? Are you willing to go public about your sexuality?
If the answer to these questions are yes then I believe you should. The community needs to see that some if it's most praised players are gay. And that gay isn't synonymous with bad or cheese for some odd reason. You won't convince everyone, and whoever is brave enough to do this will certainly get at least some flak. But you just might save a life.
As for the rest of us, we have a much easier task. We just have to stop it. A cheese isn't gay it's annoying. The map abusing player isn't a fag he's a jerk. Being gay isn't an insult; we need to stop using it as one. And if you come across a player behaving in such a manner in a custom game just tell him "You're being a jerk, I don't want to play with you" and leave. If you run into such behavior on the ladder, beat them, then report them to blizzard for hate speech.
The following was posted in the previous thread and I could not have stated it better myself:
On October 27 2011 20:32 Oiseaux wrote: Even if the person using the word(s) doesn't have the intent to be homophobic per se, the intent is still meant to be derogatory. The act of using the the insult is then what ultimately matters; a group of people are being labeled as people that the person using the insults feels are somehow inferior or, to make a stretch, lesser beings. If the intent behind the insult isn't homophobic, then why is it necessary to refer to a stream cheater, stream sniper, cheeser etc. as a fag or gay? Simply put, it's because to be seen as belonging to this group is still an insult, therefore it's homophobic.
And honestly, to all the people that are saying they aren't meaning to be homophobic and that people just need to grow thicker skin, why are you so invested in using this group as an insult? There are plenty of words that can be used to express an annoyance with someone that doesn't insult a group of people, so why do you feel the need to attach yourself to this one? There is a very long history (and just as important, a continuing history) of homophobia behind using gay and fag as an insult that it currently not possible to detach the words from that history.
If anything, I would hope the gaming community would want to remove stuff like this from their lexicon if for any reason than to give themselves legitimacy. The burden is on us to prove to the world that esports is something to be taken seriously and not just some teenagers past time. However if the community is still hanging on to this attitude, then we'll be seen as nothing more than just juvenile teenagers raging over a game. Yes, I know this a problem that exists outside of gaming as well, but we don't have the developed legitimacy and it's our job to rise above it.
Bogaert AF (September 2004). "The prevalence of male homosexuality: the effect of fraternal birth order and variations in family size". Journal of Theoretical Biology 230 (1): 33–7. doi:10.1016/j.jtbi.2004.04.035. PMID 15275997. Bogaert argues that: "The prevalence of male homosexuality is debated. One widely reported early estimate was 10% (e.g., Marmor, 1980; Voeller, 1990). Some recent data provided support for this estimate (Bagley and Tremblay, 1998), but most recent large national samples suggest that the prevalence of male homosexuality in modern western societies, including the United States, is lower than this early estimate (e.g., 1–2% in Billy et al., 1993; 2–3% in Laumann et al., 1994; 6% in Sell et al., 1995; 1–3% in Wellings et al., 1994). It is of note, however, that homosexuality is defined in different ways in these studies. For example, some use same-sex behavior and not same-sex attraction as the operational definition of homosexuality (e.g., Billy et al., 1993); many sex researchers (e.g., Bailey et al., 2000; Bogaert, 2003; Money, 1988; Zucker and Bradley, 1995) now emphasize attraction over overt behavior in conceptualizing sexual orientation." (p. 33) Also: "...the prevalence of male homosexuality (in particular, same-sex attraction) varies over time and across societies (and hence is a "moving target") in part because of two effects: (1) variations in fertility rate or family size; and (2) the fraternal birth order effect. Thus, even if accurately measured in one country at one time, the rate of male homosexuality is subject to change and is not generalizable over time or across societies." (p. 33)
Its the internet. There is nothing you can do about it. If you hate it, put up your filters or block someone. While I can see your agony, I think this has a pretty easy solution. If you are gay and are especially offended by homophobic banter, block obscene chats and block communications instead of whining about it.
Once again, its the internet.. anyone and everyone is a prime target. Be smart about it!
On October 28 2011 03:29 EricCartman wrote: Its the internet. There is nothing you can do about it. If you hate it, put up your filters or block someone. While I can see your agony, I think this has a pretty easy solution. If you are gay and are especially offended by homophobic banter, block obscene chats and block communications instead of whining about it.
Once again, its the internet.. anyone and everyone is a prime target. Be smart about it!
This sort of justification really bothers me. If this sort of "this is just how it is" justification was always followed, then there would have been no social change whatsoever in the entire history of the world.
tldr was to long, im guessing ure against people insulting other in the community with words like homo fag or queer? If ur that sensitive, u shouldnt be using the internet at all. Also gay people should relize when u flame someone with ``gay`` it isnt intended as an insult towards homosexuals but more what the word has become to be known as. In other words before u say this stuff u should rather subject to change the hole word gay ``stereotype``, gl with that
On October 28 2011 03:34 ownyaah wrote: tldr was to long, im guessing ure against people insulting other in the community with words like homo fag or queer? If ur that sensitive, u shouldnt be using the internet at all. Also gay people should relize when u flame someone with ``gay`` it isnt intended as an insult towards homosexuals but more what the word has become to be known as. In other words before u say this stuff u should rather subject to change the hole word gay ``stereotype``, gl with that
agree. gay doesnt always refer to homos... its not all about you guys!
On October 28 2011 03:29 EricCartman wrote: Its the internet. There is nothing you can do about it. If you hate it, put up your filters or block someone. While I can see your agony, I think this has a pretty easy solution. If you are gay and are especially offended by homophobic banter, block obscene chats and block communications instead of whining about it.
Once again, its the internet.. anyone and everyone is a prime target. Be smart about it!
This sort of justification really bothers me. If this sort of "this is just how it is" justification was always followed, then there would have been no social change whatsoever in the entire history of the world.
I'm going to just say that when people throw faggot and homo and gay around on the internet they are almost never trying to insult you because of your sexual orientation. When you all in someone and they call you a faggot, they are just angry at your behavior in game. It has nothing to do with your actual sexual orientation. I usually open up my game by typing out extremely ... straight ... song lyrics and I still get called faggot half the time.
On October 28 2011 03:29 EricCartman wrote: Its the internet. There is nothing you can do about it. If you hate it, put up your filters or block someone. While I can see your agony, I think this has a pretty easy solution. If you are gay and are especially offended by homophobic banter, block obscene chats and block communications instead of whining about it.
Once again, its the internet.. anyone and everyone is a prime target. Be smart about it!
This sort of justification really bothers me. If this sort of "this is just how it is" justification was always followed, then there would have been no social change whatsoever in the entire history of the world.
Anyone who doesn't believe gays deserve to be treated with just as much respect as the next guy is a faggot. Also! gay progamers, i know you are out there show yourself^^
Why are you surprised that people react negatively to this? I dont even think its a gay thing. They just find it annoying. I would just assume anyone using a ♥ is being a dick. When I used to play BW with my brother, he got pissed off whenever I said gl hf. It got to the point were he would rage quit and refuse to play me until I apologized. I dont go that far, but still consider adding a heart or exclamation point bm; think others do as well.
A troll wouldn't write more than a sentence to get his point across. I am being realistic in my views. I've nothing against homosexuality. Just be smart about things instead of complaining.
On October 28 2011 03:37 sealpuncher wrote: I'm going to just say that when people throw faggot and homo and gay around on the internet they are almost never trying to insult you because of your sexual orientation. When you all in someone and they call you a faggot, they are just angry at your behavior in game. It has nothing to do with your actual sexual orientation. I usually open up my game by typing out extremely ... straight ... song lyrics and I still get called faggot half the time.
Don't you see the similarities between this video and what you're saying? You can't just "take back" a word with an extensive history of being used to insult a specific group of people (even up the current day) and repurpose it. It will always carry the homophobic meaning whether you intend it or not. THE REASON it is offensive is because it is meant to be offensive for a straight man to be called gay, because gay people are supposedly inferior.
On October 28 2011 03:43 EricCartman wrote: A troll wouldn't write more than a sentence to get his point across. I am being realistic in my views. I've nothing against homosexuality. Just be smart about things instead of complaining.
Since when has "being smart" meant accepting the status quo? Some of the smartest people in history have worked to make the world a better place by changing people's minds, and that's the reason I respect the OP's efforts and have little respect for your complacency.
Compared to being publicly chastised and persecuted, having to deal with the occasional "homo" or "faggot" seems a pretty good deal to me.
Society accepts homos more than ever and the more time goes by, the more normal it will appear to peck the fudge. Also, most people have no problems with gay people and still use "fag" as derogatory. It's nothing against you guys, it's bashing the adversary.
I for one don't mind homos, I support gay marriage and adoption and so on, but I will proceed raging about the "gayest cheese ever" whenever I like.
Also: I would not care if any progamer proclaimed their sexual identity. Seriously, what do I care if some progamer prefers the brown to the pink?
On October 28 2011 03:37 sealpuncher wrote: I'm going to just say that when people throw faggot and homo and gay around on the internet they are almost never trying to insult you because of your sexual orientation. When you all in someone and they call you a faggot, they are just angry at your behavior in game. It has nothing to do with your actual sexual orientation. I usually open up my game by typing out extremely ... straight ... song lyrics and I still get called faggot half the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yh7TVDXH8Y Don't you see the similarities between this video and what you're saying? You can't just "take back" a word with an extensive history of being used to insult a specific group of people (even up the current day) and repurpose it. It will always carry the homophobic meaning whether you intend it or not. THE REASON it is offensive is because it is meant to be offensive for a straight man to be called gay, because gay people are supposedly inferior.
The meaning of words is determined by the majority. Sort of like how gay got changed from meaning happy to meaning homosexual. Terms like Faggot are undergoing the same treatment, I think the future generations will not know what terms like faggot were meant to be used for and won't correlate it with homosexuality.
And I do use terms like faggot in my vocabulary because here in southern california, if you say "stop being a faggot man" it's basically the same thing as "stop being an idiot man".
They both mean the same thing to 99% of people here, as going through school I hear the term faggot used a lot. It's a part of normal slang vocabulary.
I'm not gay, but I don't think homosexuals would use such a term in this regard, though.
On October 28 2011 03:34 ownyaah wrote: tldr was to long, im guessing ure against people insulting other in the community with words like homo fag or queer? If ur that sensitive, u shouldnt be using the internet at all. Also gay people should relize when u flame someone with ``gay`` it isnt intended as an insult towards homosexuals but more what the word has become to be known as. In other words before u say this stuff u should rather subject to change the hole word gay ``stereotype``, gl with that
agree. gay doesnt always refer to homos... its not all about you guys!
.. honestly, this isnt an insult but homosexuals just like women,black people etc. minjorities think the hole world is after them and we are all evil.. srsly it is annoying. you must relize that most people dont really give a flying fuck about you. ( thanks )
On October 28 2011 03:37 sealpuncher wrote: I'm going to just say that when people throw faggot and homo and gay around on the internet they are almost never trying to insult you because of your sexual orientation. When you all in someone and they call you a faggot, they are just angry at your behavior in game. It has nothing to do with your actual sexual orientation. I usually open up my game by typing out extremely ... straight ... song lyrics and I still get called faggot half the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yh7TVDXH8Y Don't you see the similarities between this video and what you're saying? You can't just "take back" a word with an extensive history of being used to insult a specific group of people (even up the current day) and repurpose it. It will always carry the homophobic meaning whether you intend it or not. THE REASON it is offensive is because it is meant to be offensive for a straight man to be called gay, because gay people are supposedly inferior.
The meaning of words is determined by the majority. Sort of like how gay got changed from meaning happy to meaning homosexual. Terms like Faggot are undergoing the same treatment, I think the future generations will not know what terms like faggot were meant to be used for and won't correlate it with homosexuality.
Except "faggot" is still the insult of choice for bullies looking to pick on gay kids. I don't understand how you can argue that this isn't the most widely used and deeply ingrained meaning of the word in the United States.
Saying something like "You gay! you are cannon rushing me!" for example really isn't insulting anyone's sexuality at all. When you are playing against someone they usually don't care about you, they just want to beat you. It's a fairly common call anybody, especially if your a young person, gay. I understand it is wrong to do so, but being upset and taking such things personally is pretty silly, and it won't change overnight. People are rude, they are very negative, they are assholes on the internet, it will never change.
after cheesing for the hundredth time on the ladder I have been called a faggot. I stopped. I laughed real hard and promptly answered: qqmoreumadcoolstorybrohahahaha I did not get mad or offended.
A huge majority of people that play sc2 are males. That means that you are probably a male, and your opponent is probably a male. the sign <3 is the sign for love.
This means that you are saying you love you opponent, and since you are both males, its saying you love another male, making the statement gay/homosexual/whatever term you use.
When i say it to my friends, we all know we're joking (granted i do love them, but not sexually) and we joke around all the time because we're comfortable in our sexuality. By saying gl hf <3 to people you dont know, youre intentionally risking BM.
We are on the internet, playing a game. Gay is internet/gaming slang, Faggot is internet/gaming slang. Rape is internet/gaming slang. You meet someone who was raped before when you talk about how hard you raped a zerg with your new build or something, and if they are a fellow gamer, they probably won't be hurt by it. If they are, they'll know that it wasn't intentionally to hurt them.
On the other end of the spectrum, calling someone a faggot is meant to be hurtful to them, and while it originated with bias towards homosexual, its become a common insult in society today. All it means when someone calls you a faggot is that they're mad at you, and they're raging. It doesn't mean that they are calling you a homosexual, it means that you did something to piss them off and they want to insult you.
Nobody cares if you're gay or straight, they may judge you because they have a bias if they know, but the majority of people do not, and they do not insult you because you are gay or straight, they insult you because you play sc2.
there is no gay bashing going on, the sc2 community is a relatively nice community, theres just player bashing going on, and the words of choice were once insults towards homosexuals (and they still are) but they are primarily standard insults, like idiot.
Well this thread is should prove to be face-palm inducing. Ban trap is set I guess.
While it is probably futile, I do agree with the OP 100%. In fact it's part of a larger issue concerning BM in online games. Just because someone bested you does not give you the right to insult or harass them, doing so is small and pitiful. While the impact may be small, maybe one day we can change our culture.
The fa- word still means what it always meant, no matter how hard you want to make it mean something else.
To everyone saying that the OP is QQing... really? Yes he could block online chat, but that doesn't solve the problem. Take another look at those suicide statistics please.
I believe there already is a very long thread on a topic almost identical to this, about Gay Starcraft players. However, if Chill thinks this warrants another thread, then so be it...
My argument is that one should be pragmatic and honest with themselves, and realize that times have seriously, seriously changed. It is now almost 2012, and the world is filled with many sexual orientations, many cultures, and many ethnicities. Many of these are new, and many of them are stemming from hundreds of years of religious and/or ethnic practices. As with such, there is historical prejudice towards many groups of people - in fact, one would argue that there is not one class of people who have been 100% exempt from racism / sexism / discrimination.
Now, with that in mind, I would like to strongly encourage the OP, and all whom follow his logic, to take what he says with a grain of salt. Yes, it does clearly offend and depress a person when they are called terrible names. Yes, it shouldn't be used to demean the person. Yes, it is probably best to be open with your choices in life to act and/or be a certain way (even if you are born a certain way, i.e, skin color).
However, do realize that any name calling holds its weight by the response of the community (the world). My theory in life is very simple, and might seem a bit extreme to those who do not follow my logical viewpoint: the utilization of any term, regardless of how offensive it is, carries a certain variable of weight, which tips the scale of society into backlash. The over-usage of certain terms causes the marginal rate of sensitivity (think economics, in the terms of how sensitive something is to delta) to decrease, or in layman's terms, the more you use something, the less sensitive you become to it.
Therefore, my argument would be that one should be vocal and proud of who they are, but they should not be sad or offended by name-calling. You showing fear, depression, anger, or backlash towards name-calling only gives those names bigger weight and meaning. It's almost the same as bullies in school. You can either call the principal to get him in trouble, and have him say "I am sorry" in front of you, which you blatantly know is a lie, because he would get suspended if he didn't apologize, OR, you can stand up to the bully, by simply laughing at his actions, or showing no sign of backlash. It is almost always the case that the latter of the two will yield the best results, as that will diminish the bullies leveraged attacks against you.
I really hope this helps, and can shape the way that the community views BM and/or name-calling. It should not be "banned", because that doesn't take away it's meaning, that just hides the meaning behind falsified red tape and bureaucracy. It should be openly embraced, and used as modern language -- which is the only way to truly make society not sensitive to it's harshness.
Edit: This is NSFW. This is also an example for reference -- please watch this if you have the stomach and/or intelligence to understand that this is not meant to be offensive, but rather to explain my point of view.
I think where people go wrong on this "debate" is they try to argue the logical/rational aspect, when the issue at hand is not about that. The pain of being called a "fag" is emotional, and it is not something you can rationalize away that easily, or at all depending on the person.
in my honest opinion, its only a view of anti-homophobia that is keeping these terms homophobic, if it weren't for people constantly complaining about the use of "gay" or "fag" they would just slip into the list of words that are general insults and lose all real meaning.
if i call someone a dick, i don't actually think they're a dick, that would be dumb, i just want to insult a guy
in the same way when a person calls someone a fag, in most cases they're not thinking about what they're actually saying, they just want to insult a person.
i have quite long hair, hence in the chav ridden town i live in i get a lot of "get a haircut", it's used as an insult, but when is "get a haircut" ever really an insult?
and if you take "nigger" people have use this as a racial slur for centuries, i will probably be frowned upon for saying it in this post, but all i'm saying is "black" in latin,
my point being the word that is used, and the context it is used in are totally unrelated, and people have to understand that the meaning of the term almost NEVER matters and will eventually fade away over time, it is the context it is used in that matters.
hell i can even reference southpark to show what i mean; season 13 episode 12 "the F word"
Meh. It can go either way, honestly. But this much is true: on the internet, EVERYONE is a target. It's not fair and it's not right, but it's the internet - what can anyone really DO about it? Meh...I don't really know.
you are conflating multiple meanings of one word to make every usage homophobic, chill out everyone is just here to have a gay ol' time - have fun.
you know words only offend when you take offence from them. I've been calling people gay since before i knew what gay was - ie my usage of it is certainly not what you mean by it - which depends on context.
I say gay all the time. I admit im trying to cut it out now, but im no way homophobic - the only reason why i am trying to stop saying it is because some of my friends dont like it. But they don't think im homophobic they just think im a bit of an ass.
As for your statistics, most of that isnt caused by words like gay - its caused by dicks (omg im insulting all men!) who think picking on the different kid is in some way cool. the word they use is irrelevant and if you have got into the spot where you think the word is important I really think your missing the big picture.
Or are you trying to argue if they called him something else it would make it all better?
Besides, learn to deal with it. Being an ass doesnt get you far in life - sadly school is like a prison so you dont have many moves to deal with it and that imo is the real problem. You don't get that kind of abuse in the real world - well you do but its called a crime then but for some reason schools don't work like that. Can't say i'd like to be in school and gay - pro tip, don't be the weakest. That, i suspect, is the real problem.
the reasons why people dont like gays are cultural. I read a statistic that says far more men are staying home to look after kids while wives work. Things take time.
People have be using "offensive" words to insult each other forever. Almost everyone is guilty of it. Funny enough, I have a gay friend who I was talking to about this last week. It made him uncomfortable to hear people call each other 'gay' or 'faggot' in school, even though he knew it was not meant as an insult to gay people. Now he doesn't care.
At the same time he calls people and things 'retarded' all the time. So despite his "victimization" he continues to do the same thing to others. I have other gay friends who do similar things all the time, whether it's making a comment about Asian driving or any of the wealth of inappropriate things everyone says.
Your complaint seems to be specifically directed to the StarCraft ladder, so as others have pointed out, I suggest you make use of the bad word filter. Otherwise, if you report someone for saying a "bad word" in a fit of rage on the internet for hate crimes, you're being a faggot.
On October 28 2011 04:18 OmiDeLta wrote: Meh. It can go either way, honestly. But this much is true: on the internet, EVERYONE is a target. It's not fair and it's not right, but it's the internet - what can anyone really DO about it? Meh...I don't really know.
No, not everyone on the Internet is a target. Not white, atheist, heterosexual males. Surprisingly. that's what I and most other people on the Internet are.
I'm all for that you should be able to joke about anything. What matters is who laughs. If you joke about gays and the gays laugh it's OK, if you joke about gays and everybody else laughs it's more questionable (I do this all the time, but it's something I think people should try to minimize).
Regarding the OP using the word gay and faggot is just an ordinary insult. If people would just care enough it would be easy to insult people in other terms. Maybe in 10 years when being gay is more accepted in RL this will disappear.
On October 28 2011 04:19 MrTortoise wrote: you know words only offend when you take offence from them. I've been calling people gay since before i knew what gay was - ie my usage of it is certainly not what you mean by it - which depends on context.
I say gay all the time. I admit im trying to cut it out now, but im no way homophobic - the only reason why i am trying to stop saying it is because some of my friends dont like it. But they don't think im homophobic they just think im a bit of an ass.
In no small way this thread was written for people like you. You use gay as a dergatory term, not out of melaice or homophobia, but out of a cultural trend that you adopted. The people you hurt, you don't know you hurt. But I assure you, you did.
Now I didn't give 'gay' as an example in the OP and the insults I've seen are much more blunt, but even that word, when used in a dergatory fasion, hurts people.
You actually have the easiest and the best way to make this better. Stop. Stop using gay as a term of derision, pick something else.
On October 28 2011 04:04 gulati wrote: I believe there already is a very long thread on a topic almost identical to this, about Gay Starcraft players. However, if Chill thinks this warrants another thread, then so be it...
If you can find it, PM me so I can wash my hands of this thread. I searched and couldn't find it, despite knowing it exists.
You know what Chill, You win. The welcome to this site says this is teamliquids home and we are guests. And I'm cool with that.
If you think this isn't something the teamliquid community needs to address or talk about, close the thread. I won't argue with you anymore, this is your house, your rules. All I know is that in the short time this thread is up I've already got a PM from someone thanking me for raising the issue and trying to make the game a safer place.
Threads like these never seem to get anywhere. I agree with the OP but I know that nobody's minds will be changed by arguments disguised as discussions. What about if people thought twice about using an anti-gay word because the person on the other end might take it too hard? Whether people should or should not have thicker skin doesn't mean that they do or will so we should just all be nice and get along.
On October 28 2011 05:12 IcemanAsi wrote: You know what Chill, You win. The welcome to this site says this is teamliquids home and we are guests. And I'm cool with that.
If you think this isn't something the teamliquid community needs to address or talk about, close the thread. I won't argue with you anymore, this is your house, your rules. All I know is that in the short time this thread is up I've already got a PM from someone thanking me for raising the issue and trying to make the game a safer place.
On October 28 2011 05:12 IcemanAsi wrote: You know what Chill, You win. The welcome to this site says this is teamliquids home and we are guests. And I'm cool with that.
If you think this isn't something the teamliquid community needs to address or talk about, close the thread. I won't argue with you anymore, this is your house, your rules. All I know is that in the short time this thread is up I've already got a PM from someone thanking me for raising the issue and trying to make the game a safer place.
Your call.
You don't need to go be a hero. If it's redundant then it should be closed. No need for a meltdown.
No one cares. This is a computer game, not a social status contest or preschool (OMG HE CALLED ME A BAD NAME T.T). You stay out of my business, I stay out of yours. If you're really so sad about being called names, maybe you just shouldn't be on the internet. The Nazi's can march through Skoki, IL with their hate message but the second someone gets called a fag, the entire world ends. Don't forget that word is bastardized as it is, its actual definition is not even related to the idea you've associated it with. Only the illiterate and uneducated get angry about words like "niggardly" and "fag".
TL;DR: NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR SEXUALITY. All these sexuality threads are merely a brag fest, looking for hookups or whine fests.
Women don't get mad about people using the word "bitch". I don't see why you get mad about "gay", words change their meanings all the time, even "gay" wasn't originally related to homosexual people.
On October 28 2011 03:29 EricCartman wrote: Its the internet. There is nothing you can do about it. If you hate it, put up your filters or block someone. While I can see your agony, I think this has a pretty easy solution. If you are gay and are especially offended by homophobic banter, block obscene chats and block communications instead of whining about it.
Once again, its the internet.. anyone and everyone is a prime target. Be smart about it!
This sort of justification really bothers me. If this sort of "this is just how it is" justification was always followed, then there would have been no social change whatsoever in the entire history of the world.
bro.. deal with it. we all are.
Alright now I just think you're trolling.
Aren't the guys you complaining about doing the same thing? Because they know it gets on your nerves? The best way to deal with it is to ignore it.
This isn't Korea where you can call the internet police. It really isn't so simple. Sure, there are cases out there where people are charged for helping with the deaths of certain individuals.
It truly is the nature of the faceless beast. If you don't know them then it really shouldn't matter to you.
On October 28 2011 04:13 schnizzle wrote: in my honest opinion, its only a view of anti-homophobia that is keeping these terms homophobic, if it weren't for people constantly complaining about the use of "gay" or "fag" they would just slip into the list of words that are general insults and lose all real meaning.
"Douchebag" was originally used as a demeaning insult toward women (and considering that women primarily douched their parts in the olden days to make themselves acceptable in mens' presence, it carried that extra twinge of induced self-loathing by the patriarchy).
Today it's used almost exclusively to describe sleazy men, if it has any meaning at all.
Such is the fate of most insults, save those few who groups for their own purposes (or perhaps mistakenly) keep fresh and alive by attempting to ban them or make them verboten.
Ok, so if i say "nice cannon rush you fag", you would consider me a contributor toward homo suicide?
Sorry, but I don't buy that. Suicide is a coward's way out, fucking man up and face the music. I have *no* sympathy for anyone who commits suicide. I'm sorry, you took the easy way out and likely hurt the people who DID care about you.
On October 28 2011 03:59 TheToast wrote: Well this thread is should prove to be face-palm inducing. Ban trap is set I guess.
While it is probably futile, I do agree with the OP 100%. In fact it's part of a larger issue concerning BM in online games. Just because someone bested you does not give you the right to insult or harass them, doing so is small and pitiful. While the impact may be small, maybe one day we can change our culture.
The fa- word still means what it always meant, no matter how hard you want to make it mean something else.
To everyone saying that the OP is QQing... really? Yes he could block online chat, but that doesn't solve the problem. Take another look at those suicide statistics please.
Meaning is based on context. If someone were to call a cheesing person/cannon-rusher a faggot, anyone but a moron can distinguish that he is insulting the person based on their ingame decision to perform and annoying and risky play as opposed to insulting them for their sexual orientation outside of the game. You can't even be sure whether someone is heterosexual or homosexual through the internet unless they explicitly tell you.
In the context of gaming, staying someone is gay or a "faggot" is not meant to be congruent with issuing a defamatory insult that defines someone as not heterosexual. Gamers can replace the word "faggot" with anything they wish and still end up with the same meaning when they insult someone through a video game. The context the word is used in is really the only one that matters, IMO. If the end result is that one is insulted for cheesing, regardless of the word used, and both parties understand the context that word is used in, who are you to say that we can or can't use it?
I'd really like to know why suicide statistics are brought up in regards to using bm ingame. If you can't handle the language or the bad eggs of the community, their is always a filter built in to the game and one built between your ears.
One could even argue the misuse of the word cheeser as being defamatory if the community organized an opinion that cheeser meant someone lacked inherent skill in playing the game. Someone who has played the game for a long time could be extremely insulted and take that in a really bad way.
The use of an adjective that describes your fundamental identity to connote "bad" or "inferior" is hurtful. That's because the reason the word means bad or inferior is that your kind is perceived as bad or inferior. "Your kind" could be anyone; gays, blacks, tall people, Eskimos, whatever. As long as the prejudice exists (and homophobic prejudice is not dead even in places where people would like to think it is), when someone uses the word you cannot be sure that it isn't charged with that original prejudice. The problem is that the two meanings are conflated --- some people use the word to mean one thing, some people use it to mean the other, and some people use it to mean both things because they think they're connected. Sure, you can get used to it, in the same way you can get used to a bad smell. That doesn't mean some fresh air wouldn't be nice.
"Gay" isn't going to stop meaning "homosexual" any time soon, so the pejorative usage of the word reflects immaturity (at best) and bigotry (at worst).
To put it another way: Suppose that people use the name "Joe" to mean "total moron," because back in the day people thought anyone called "Joe" was a total moron. Plenty of people still do think that Joes are total morons. Your name is Joe. Happy?
Another example: I'm not sexist. I just use the term "female" to mean someone who's bitchy, whiny, overly concerned with their appearance, and likes to go shopping --- because everyone else uses it that way! It has nothing to do with the person's gender, so I'm not a sexist.
(Yes, I know this is a conversation about usage over the internet and that people are immature on the internet. That doesn't mean you should be.)
Suicide is a coward's way out, fucking man up and face the music. I have *no* sympathy for anyone who commits suicide. I'm sorry, you took the easy way out and likely hurt the people who DID care about you.
This adds nothing. If circumstances are bad enough to drive someone to suicide, those circumstances should have been amended even if suicide was still the wrong choice.
On October 28 2011 03:43 treekiller wrote: tldr except for the part about you typing:
gl hf ♥
Why are you surprised that people react negatively to this? I dont even think its a gay thing. They just find it annoying. I would just assume anyone using a ♥ is being a dick. When I used to play BW with my brother, he got pissed off whenever I said gl hf. It got to the point were he would rage quit and refuse to play me until I apologized. I dont go that far, but still consider adding a heart or exclamation point bm; think others do as well.
+1
Also, I dont think people are in their hearts bashing gays. It's just an anger thing. And people get angry so they will just say crap all the time. In other words: In my opinion, it's nothing.
Also, why the hell does a progamer have to go public with this? Should someone just cry out about their heterosexuality? Stop trying to shove things down our throat, this is 2011, we ARE aware for many years now...
On October 28 2011 04:08 Gdarkness wrote: I think where people go wrong on this "debate" is they try to argue the logical/rational aspect, when the issue at hand is not about that. The pain of being called a "fag" is emotional, and it is not something you can rationalize away that easily, or at all depending on the person.
This thread (reading the responses to it) makes me really sad. Nice to see 1 or 2 reasonable responses. Yeah they're only words, and maybe they're not remotely intended to be homophobic, but words can have a powerful and very real effect on people... I guess I wish people would have a bit more empathy for their fellow human beings.
On October 28 2011 06:01 Djabanete wrote: The use of an adjective that describes your fundamental identity to connote "bad" or "inferior" is hurtful. That's because the reason the word means bad or inferior is that your kind is perceived as bad or inferior. "Your kind" could be anyone; gays, blacks, tall people, Eskimos, whatever. As long as the prejudice exists (and homophobic prejudice is not dead even in places where people would like to think it is), when someone uses the word you cannot be sure that it isn't charged with that original prejudice. The problem is that the two meanings are conflated --- some people use the word to mean one thing, some people use it to mean the other, and some people use it to mean both things because they think they're connected. Sure, you can get used to it, in the same way you can get used to a bad smell. That doesn't mean some fresh air wouldn't be nice.
"Gay" isn't going to stop meaning "homosexual" any time soon, so the pejorative usage of the word reflects of immaturity (at best) and bigotry (at worst).
To put it another way: Suppose that people use the name "Joe" to mean "total moron," because back in the day people thought anyone called "Joe" was a total moron. Plenty of people still do think that Joes are total morons. Your name is Joe. Happy?
(Yes, I know this is a conversation about usage over the internet and that people are immature on the internet. That doesn't mean you should be.)
Suicide is a coward's way out, fucking man up and face the music. I have *no* sympathy for anyone who commits suicide. I'm sorry, you took the easy way out and likely hurt the people who DID care about you.
This adds nothing. If circumstances are bad enough to drive someone to suicide, those circumstances should have been amended even if suicide was still the wrong choice.
Thanks this is the sort of thing I wanted to say but couldn't find the words
On October 28 2011 05:48 Audemed wrote: Ok, so if i say "nice cannon rush you fag", you would consider me a contributor toward homo suicide?
Sorry, but I don't buy that. Suicide is a coward's way out, fucking man up and face the music. I have *no* sympathy for anyone who commits suicide. I'm sorry, you took the easy way out and likely hurt the people who DID care about you.
So preventing a suicide is not important. Telling someone to "man up" in the face of mental breakdowns, harassment, and having no friends is like telling a crippled old man who is in a wheelchair to kick himself because he cant walk up a flight of stairs. You have NO sympathy for children and teenagers on the edge of suicide, and somehow you also think that it is easy?
You're right, it is the easy way out, dammit, but that doesn't mean that you tell someone to "fucking man up and face the music". You wanna be on the edge of suicide sometime, with a gun next to you and a whole lot of reason to use it?
That being said, I never insult my opponents ever, just because I never know who might be on the other side of the screen, and what might happen as a result of their being mocked.
I am not a pro gamer, but I do love games and I am not afraid to state publicly that I am bi. I get bashed almost never in real life, but under the anonymity of the Internet I get plenty of shit. Just ignore it. They're trying to get a rise out of you, so don't let them win.
On October 28 2011 06:01 Djabanete wrote: The use of an adjective that describes your fundamental identity to connote "bad" or "inferior" is hurtful.
When gay meant "happy" was it super uplifting?
I don't know, I wasn't around. Do you know?
When you read literature from the "internet-imposed before-faggot" era, do you ever read the word gay as anything but happy?
To be honest, the meaning "homosexual" always passes through my head when I read the word "gay" in print. Like, if it's the Fellowship of the Ring and the elves and hobbits are being gay, then I definitely understand the intended meaning, but the other interpretation still comes to my mind unbidden (as it did to yours just then).
On October 28 2011 05:48 Audemed wrote: Ok, so if i say "nice cannon rush you fag", you would consider me a contributor toward homo suicide?
Sorry, but I don't buy that. Suicide is a coward's way out, fucking man up and face the music. I have *no* sympathy for anyone who commits suicide. I'm sorry, you took the easy way out and likely hurt the people who DID care about you.
So preventing a suicide is not important. Telling someone to "man up" in the face of mental breakdowns, harassment, and having no friends is like telling a crippled old man who is in a wheelchair to kick himself because he cant walk up a flight of stairs. You have NO sympathy for children and teenagers on the edge of suicide, and somehow you also think that it is easy?
You're right, it is the easy way out, dammit, but that doesn't mean that you tell someone to "fucking man up and face the music". You wanna be on the edge of suicide sometime, with a gun next to you and a whole lot of reason to use it?
That being said, I never insult my opponents ever, just because I never know who might be on the other side of the screen, and what might happen as a result of their being mocked.
I've been diagnosed with post deployment PTSD. I have had far more reasons to pull the trigger than some pussy who doesn't like being called names, and I have the means available to do it 24/7. I have considered it once, and understood it's not the solution. Get off your proverbial high ground, you tard. I'm quite versed in the overarching suicide situation, and my view on it still stands. No sympathy.
I agree 100% with the OP and what TheToast was saying. I really don't think it's too much to ask that If you're going to insult someone you do it in a slightly less dickish way.
On October 28 2011 05:48 Audemed wrote: Ok, so if i say "nice cannon rush you fag", you would consider me a contributor toward homo suicide?
Sorry, but I don't buy that. Suicide is a coward's way out, fucking man up and face the music. I have *no* sympathy for anyone who commits suicide. I'm sorry, you took the easy way out and likely hurt the people who DID care about you.
You really have no idea what you're talking about. If it was that easy there would be no suicides, but it isn't. Mental health is serious, and human psychology is extremely complicated.
On October 28 2011 05:48 Audemed wrote: Ok, so if i say "nice cannon rush you fag", you would consider me a contributor toward homo suicide?
Sorry, but I don't buy that. Suicide is a coward's way out, fucking man up and face the music. I have *no* sympathy for anyone who commits suicide. I'm sorry, you took the easy way out and likely hurt the people who DID care about you.
So preventing a suicide is not important. Telling someone to "man up" in the face of mental breakdowns, harassment, and having no friends is like telling a crippled old man who is in a wheelchair to kick himself because he cant walk up a flight of stairs. You have NO sympathy for children and teenagers on the edge of suicide, and somehow you also think that it is easy?
You're right, it is the easy way out, dammit, but that doesn't mean that you tell someone to "fucking man up and face the music". You wanna be on the edge of suicide sometime, with a gun next to you and a whole lot of reason to use it?
That being said, I never insult my opponents ever, just because I never know who might be on the other side of the screen, and what might happen as a result of their being mocked.
If you're a teenager and a gun is next to you in the open, your parents are shitty and that is probably the least of your problems.
If you're a grown man, you should have the capabilities of handling your life and encounters you face, otherwise if you make a decision to commit suicide that decision is 100% on you as you are now responsible for your own well-being.
Look, OP, I understand where you're coming from, but...
The sheer fact that the insult "fag" is thrown out (especially in gaming) without any knowledge of the recipient's sexuality goes to show that it's not really a homophobic slur anymore - sure, its meant to hurt the person its thrown toward but it doesn't really imply that the person is gay.
Shouldn't this be a good thing? Isn't it somewhat good that it's become more generic and more of a like a "bland slur", so to speak?
Anyway, with that being said, I feel like you're being incredibly weak here - I'm not gay, I'm not stupid, I'm not a dog rapist and I'm not bag of shit, but damned if I haven't been called all of those things while playing video games. They're faceless insults, and by letting it get to you, you're letting them win.
The word fag isn't OP. It's only as powerful as you let it be and right now you're letting it cannon rush you.
Furthermore, people are entitled to the privacy of their sexual identities and by calling famous gamers out and suggesting that they aren't brave if they don't come out, that's almost as bad as the insulters you meet in/after games.
On October 28 2011 05:48 Audemed wrote: Ok, so if i say "nice cannon rush you fag", you would consider me a contributor toward homo suicide?
Sorry, but I don't buy that. Suicide is a coward's way out, fucking man up and face the music. I have *no* sympathy for anyone who commits suicide. I'm sorry, you took the easy way out and likely hurt the people who DID care about you.
So preventing a suicide is not important. Telling someone to "man up" in the face of mental breakdowns, harassment, and having no friends is like telling a crippled old man who is in a wheelchair to kick himself because he cant walk up a flight of stairs. You have NO sympathy for children and teenagers on the edge of suicide, and somehow you also think that it is easy?
You're right, it is the easy way out, dammit, but that doesn't mean that you tell someone to "fucking man up and face the music". You wanna be on the edge of suicide sometime, with a gun next to you and a whole lot of reason to use it?
That being said, I never insult my opponents ever, just because I never know who might be on the other side of the screen, and what might happen as a result of their being mocked.
I've been diagnosed with post deployment PTSD. I have had far more reasons to pull the trigger than some pussy who doesn't like being called names, and I have the means available to do it 24/7. I have considered it once, and understood it's not the solution. Get off your proverbial high ground, you tard. I'm quite versed in the overarching suicide situation, and my view on it still stands. No sympathy.
Well, not everyone is as strong as you. No sympathy is harsh.
On October 28 2011 05:48 Audemed wrote: Ok, so if i say "nice cannon rush you fag", you would consider me a contributor toward homo suicide?
Sorry, but I don't buy that. Suicide is a coward's way out, fucking man up and face the music. I have *no* sympathy for anyone who commits suicide. I'm sorry, you took the easy way out and likely hurt the people who DID care about you.
So preventing a suicide is not important. Telling someone to "man up" in the face of mental breakdowns, harassment, and having no friends is like telling a crippled old man who is in a wheelchair to kick himself because he cant walk up a flight of stairs. You have NO sympathy for children and teenagers on the edge of suicide, and somehow you also think that it is easy?
You're right, it is the easy way out, dammit, but that doesn't mean that you tell someone to "fucking man up and face the music". You wanna be on the edge of suicide sometime, with a gun next to you and a whole lot of reason to use it?
That being said, I never insult my opponents ever, just because I never know who might be on the other side of the screen, and what might happen as a result of their being mocked.
I've been diagnosed with post deployment PTSD. I have had far more reasons to pull the trigger than some pussy who doesn't like being called names, and I have the means available to do it 24/7. I have considered it once, and understood it's not the solution. Get off your proverbial high ground, you tard. I'm quite versed in the overarching suicide situation, and my view on it still stands. No sympathy.
Well, not everyone is as strong as you. No sympathy is harsh.
Exactly. You(Audemed) resisted it, but you had PTSD and are an adult. What about a kid that is being constantly pushed around for being gay? Is this kid strong enough to resist, is he a "wimp" for thinking of it?
A gun isn't the only way-overdoses and intentional gas poisoning work perfectly well too. I may be taking the proverbial high ground, as you put it, but I place value on every human life that can possibly be saved, no matter the circumstance.
On October 28 2011 05:48 Audemed wrote: Ok, so if i say "nice cannon rush you fag", you would consider me a contributor toward homo suicide?
Sorry, but I don't buy that. Suicide is a coward's way out, fucking man up and face the music. I have *no* sympathy for anyone who commits suicide. I'm sorry, you took the easy way out and likely hurt the people who DID care about you.
So preventing a suicide is not important. Telling someone to "man up" in the face of mental breakdowns, harassment, and having no friends is like telling a crippled old man who is in a wheelchair to kick himself because he cant walk up a flight of stairs. You have NO sympathy for children and teenagers on the edge of suicide, and somehow you also think that it is easy?
You're right, it is the easy way out, dammit, but that doesn't mean that you tell someone to "fucking man up and face the music". You wanna be on the edge of suicide sometime, with a gun next to you and a whole lot of reason to use it?
That being said, I never insult my opponents ever, just because I never know who might be on the other side of the screen, and what might happen as a result of their being mocked.
I've been diagnosed with post deployment PTSD. I have had far more reasons to pull the trigger than some pussy who doesn't like being called names, and I have the means available to do it 24/7. I have considered it once, and understood it's not the solution. Get off your proverbial high ground, you tard. I'm quite versed in the overarching suicide situation, and my view on it still stands. No sympathy.
User was warned for this post
Your circumstances are your own, and it's admirable that you didn't take your life when you were considering it. But there's a difference between disagreeing with an act (and I share your feelings there) and sympathizing with a person who's suffering.
In other words, if people are killing themselves, there's a big problem beyond the simple fact that they're killing themselves.
On October 28 2011 03:29 EricCartman wrote: Its the internet. There is nothing you can do about it. If you hate it, put up your filters or block someone. While I can see your agony, I think this has a pretty easy solution. If you are gay and are especially offended by homophobic banter, block obscene chats and block communications instead of whining about it.
Once again, its the internet.. anyone and everyone is a prime target. Be smart about it!
This sort of justification really bothers me. If this sort of "this is just how it is" justification was always followed, then there would have been no social change whatsoever in the entire history of the world.
bro.. deal with it. we all are.
Alright now I just think you're trolling.
Aren't the guys you complaining about doing the same thing? Because they know it gets on your nerves? The best way to deal with it is to ignore it.
This isn't Korea where you can call the internet police. It really isn't so simple. Sure, there are cases out there where people are charged for helping with the deaths of certain individuals.
It truly is the nature of the faceless beast. If you don't know them then it really shouldn't matter to you.
I think you're missing the point of the thread. No one is trying to "call the internet police" and shut down people who say words they don't like. From what I gather from the OP, he's trying to make a case for why people shouldn't use homophobically charged insults so casually, if at all. Whether you want to take him up on his advice or not is ultimately up to you. I guess I'm just confused at why is it that if I call someone a "nigger" with the intent to insult them, it's clear to everyone that I'm being racist (implied: I am caucasian, you are African American/I believe you are African American/share the traits of an African American and are therefore inferior to me), but if I call someone a "faggot" (implied: I am a heterosexual, you are homosexual/share the traits of a homosexual and are therefore inferior to me) as an insult so many people think that what I meant is open to interpretation and depends on my intent?
A lot of you guys are missing the point.. I used to use faggot and other slurs all the time and to me it was okay because I wasn't using them to insult gay people, I was just using them to express anger and discontent.
However it's not just about your intent, the word faggot still has its homophobic origins and carries a derogatory meaning, regardless of your intent. And by using such words you are promoting those negative ideals even if it's not something you intended to do. Basically restating the OP but nobody bothered to read it because it was long.
I agree it is wrong, but as other people have pointed out, when it is used on the Internet, very probably they are not trying to insult the other person directly due to his/her sexual preferences, they just want to insult the other person, because they are angry and most of the times that's the first word they remember/decide to use. That's all.
You can't change this behaviour by giving statistics, telling people that there are gay people who exist and they are dealing with multiple issues in their life already and simply using a word for the purpose of insulting, that you add one more to the list. Some of them know this, some don't. Some just don't care. Some are just angry for that moment and couldn't care less, it is subconcious and they use the word.
The solution to this issue is not threads like this, even though it helps to bring the subject to light, but widespread education on human rights in an adequate manner to reduce or eliminate discrimination against homosexual people. You won't immediately enlighten people and change their behaviour through opening this thread. I'm sure some of the users who may insult others on ladder or internet in this manner on TL will forget about it in a couple hours, won't really dwell too much on it (unless the issue directly concerns them in a way).
That's human nature. It is wild, chaotic and untamed. Education is the only solution, and it starts at not public schools but in families, where the roots of the children are planted at. And for that, the parents need to be well educated. So the best thing you can do about it, is that when you, the people, decide to have your kids and when they are growing up, you explain them in an appropriate age when he/she can grasp the whole situation, that there are people with different sexual preferences and that they are not to be looked down, insulted, or discriminated because of that because:
a) most of the times it is not down to a choice, that sometimes one is born as and it cannot be changed, and
b) even if it was a choice, it is noone's business and it is cruel and morally wrong, since you hurt someone.
On October 28 2011 06:43 spree wrote: A lot of you guys are missing the point.. I used to use faggot and other slurs all the time and to me it was okay because I wasn't using them to insult gay people, I was just using them to express anger and discontent.
However it's not just about your intent, the word faggot still has its homophobic origins and carries a derogatory meaning, regardless of your intent. And by using such words you are promoting those negative ideals even if it's not something you intended to do. Basically restating the OP but nobody bothered to read it because it was long.
The word faggot actually has its origins as a bundle of sticks. The intent behind a word IS the meaning of the word to both parties who are involved in the conversation. Calling a person a fag in an online game has an implied meaning based on the context it's used. Call someone a fag in the dawning of puberty and you prompt them to all-out deny their status as a homosexual.
Context.
The intent behind a crime is quite important, I don't see why it isn't for a statement. Do you disregard intent when someone is making a sarcastic statement or when you listen to satire?
The problem is - no one "owns" words. The meaning of words is defined by the society (or smaller communities)
People already mentioned that "gay" was basically a synonym to "happy". Even The Hobbit or LotR - dont remember which - described the hobbit race as "gay", so it wasnt even that long ago
Also you need to keep in mind that the online/gaming community is made up by different people / races / nationalities. People here in Germany use vocabulary like "owned" "raped" "gay" in their normal German sentences (plz dont derail his now how this is bad^^). None of them is having the normal association between actually "owning someone" or "raping someone" or someone being homosexual. We have our German words for that. "faggot" is just a normal insult for them, and they know their opponent is likely to understand it (compared to the German: Schwuchtel, Penner, Wichser, ...).
But even then, identical words can have different meanings, "cool" "bitch". And you can use completely fine words to insult someone "he's special". But on the other hand I can tell my friend "Man, you're a total retard" and it's not insulting. Context is very important. Every single word can be used to insult someone.
I think my point is: It doesnt matter if you're called a "gay cannonrusher", a "fucking jerk who cannonrushes", a "fucking cannonrushing nigger" or that "you/your siblings/your parents should die of cancer/aids", or people say "very innovative strategy used, you must be a gosu". It's all something you shouldnt say to someone in a game (and probably not all all^^). I just cannot agree that we should only change those insults which refers only one specific group. Insults overall (should) have no place in a game like SC2.
Well, I think if you remember your time in elementary school, there is still a strong idea that being gay is wrong and something to insult others for. People call each other "homos" or say "he likes the cock", quite clearly to insult them. So I wouldn't say that calling something "gay" or someone else "a fag" is entirely divorced from the negativity specifically targeting gay people. The fact that it could still hurt someone who is gay therefore still exists, and should be avoided.
So therefore, I agree with the OP. But not just because we're gamers and want to set an example so that others take e-sports seriously...I think its kind of superficial to have that as your reason, although I can understand if that's the kind of motivation people are most likely to follow on TL (I hope not).
I would suggest you avoid using those terms because you want to be a decent person, and that you avoid hurting or depressing people who are actually gay, and do get teased about it in school. Just because you don't use those terms with any ill intent towards gay people doesn't mean the person will take it that way.
In general I suppose people should be nice to each other, but at the least we really should phase this out of our vocabulary and use a different word. Every little bit helps...describing change as futile is silly, every great change has started out as a small idea one person had. You may as well try, it can't hurt.
On October 28 2011 06:43 spree wrote: A lot of you guys are missing the point.. I used to use faggot and other slurs all the time and to me it was okay because I wasn't using them to insult gay people, I was just using them to express anger and discontent.
However it's not just about your intent, the word faggot still has its homophobic origins and carries a derogatory meaning, regardless of your intent. And by using such words you are promoting those negative ideals even if it's not something you intended to do. Basically restating the OP but nobody bothered to read it because it was long.
There's two sides to the debate: 1. We should change our language regardless of intent. [Use another word because the possibility of offending someone in this specific case can be fatal.] 2. Intent supercedes language. [I don't intend to offend gays. If I let language supercede intent there is no end to to this - I will always be forced to cater to endless demands]
Neither is right. There's no hard line anyone can draw. At least this thread is spreading information so people can justify their choice internally.
On October 28 2011 06:01 Djabanete wrote: To put it another way: Suppose that people use the name "Joe" to mean "total moron," because back in the day people thought anyone called "Joe" was a total moron. Plenty of people still do think that Joes are total morons. Your name is Joe. Happy?
People use my name to describe sleezy men who visit prostitutes, I don't give a shit. I asked the prostitutes I visit and they aren't offended either.
Belano wrote: I agree 100% with the OP and what TheToast was saying. I really don't think it's too much to ask that If you're going to insult someone you do it in a slightly less dickish way.
Congratulations. You have just offended everyone named Dick by equating all Dicks with being dicks.
What about straight men who happen to be very homophobic who are being called gay over the internet and feel uncomfortable about it? The word gay can insult people, or it can be ignored, or it can carry separate meanings.
I feel like this is a lot like the way our community uses rape, I'm not gay, homophobic and I haven't been raped, and none of those words... actually no words bother me, because they are just words, I can only be offended based on the meaning of those words at the time.
If I do a 1 base all in and someone I just beat calls me a cheesy gay faggot queer homo gay fag gay I'm not going to get upset, he's just venting because he lost to something he knows he shouldn't have, that takes a lot less skill for me to do than for him to defend.
If I am hanging out with a friend and I give my male friend a hug and some stranger calls us homos in a very obviously derogatory way then yeah I'd be offended because they actually mean it in a way that I find offensive even as a straight man (not because I feel like gay people are inferior, but because the person who is calling me that obviously believes they are).
I guess I'm just trying to say that it's about context. Let's say that it turned out Nestea was gay, and someone said he did a "gay" build and didn't deserve a win, I wouldn't get upset about the context for Nestea. If someone was saying we shouldn't watch his games because he likes men then I would be offended even though it has zero effect on me personally.
On October 28 2011 06:01 Djabanete wrote: To put it another way: Suppose that people use the name "Joe" to mean "total moron," because back in the day people thought anyone called "Joe" was a total moron. Plenty of people still do think that Joes are total morons. Your name is Joe. Happy?
People use my name to describe sleezy men who visit prostitutes, I don't give a shit. I asked the prostitutes I visit and they aren't offended either.
Belano wrote: I agree 100% with the OP and what TheToast was saying. I really don't think it's too much to ask that If you're going to insult someone you do it in a slightly less dickish way.
Congratulations. You have just offended everyone named Dick by equating all Dicks with being dicks.
That last example doesn't work. Being a dick is an adjective, while dick is a noun...so you can't confuse the two because they're used in different contexts.
I'm not sure if it's related or not, but why would anyone give a shit who someone else is attracted to? Why the fuck does it even matter? If you're not a hardcore bible thumper, why would you have any aversion or disgust toward it? These names and the negative connotations should not exist in the first place. It's frustrating as shit to be honest.
Also, I use these words myself. Not because I'm a homophobe (a word I will never understand. Who is actually afraid of gay people?), but because over time, I have become less sensitive to them. Probably the same as everyone else who uses them. It's pretty much the same as calling someone a retard or stupid. I don't hate mentally retarded people. Nor do I hate the stupid. I've heard homosexuals refer to straight folks as "breeders" and such. Doesn't bother me. Words are just that. My two cents.
On October 28 2011 07:04 ayaz2810 wrote: I'm not sure if it's related or not, but why would anyone give a shit who someone else is attracted to? Why the fuck does it even matter? If you're not a hardcore bible thumper, why would you have any aversion or disgust toward it? These names and the negative connotations should not exist in the first place. It's frustrating as shit to be honest.
Also, I use these words myself. Not because I'm a homophobe (a word I will never understand. Who is actually afraid of gay people?), but because over time, I have become less sensitive to them. Probably the same as everyone else who uses them. It's pretty much the same as calling someone a retard or stupid. I don't hate mentally retarded people. Nor do I hate the stupid. I've heard homosexuals refer to straight folks as "breeders" and such. Doesn't bother me. Words are just that. My two cents.
It reminds me of the South Park episode where Chef goes apeshit over the flag being racist, but the kids don't because they didn't distinguish the guy being hanged on the flag from those doing the hanging based on color/ethnicity.
On October 28 2011 06:01 Djabanete wrote: To put it another way: Suppose that people use the name "Joe" to mean "total moron," because back in the day people thought anyone called "Joe" was a total moron. Plenty of people still do think that Joes are total morons. Your name is Joe. Happy?
People use my name to describe sleezy men who visit prostitutes, I don't give a shit. I asked the prostitutes I visit and they aren't offended either.
Belano wrote: I agree 100% with the OP and what TheToast was saying. I really don't think it's too much to ask that If you're going to insult someone you do it in a slightly less dickish way.
Congratulations. You have just offended everyone named Dick by equating all Dicks with being dicks.
The difference is that there's no existing prejudice that Johns are sleazeballs or that Dicks are dicks. The categories are distinct in people's minds.
The problem lies in prejudice and not in nomenclature. "Gay" used as a pejorative basically carries all the prejudices about gay men with it. At its most removed from sexuality/gender concepts, it still means "cheap", "inferior", or "worthless." And it's also applied to things that are colorful, gaudy, or emotional in non-traditionally-masculine ways. The term as a pejorative encapsulates all the harmful prejudices we have about gay men, and that's why it's best left unsaid.
On October 28 2011 05:54 stevarius wrote: I'd really like to know why suicide statistics are brought up in regards to using bm ingame. If you can't handle the language or the bad eggs of the community, their is always a filter built in to the game and one built between your ears.
Sorry I wasn't clear. When I say that blocking the chat won't fix the problem, the problem I am referring to is the culture of bullying that exists among the young adults in the US. It's not just an issue that affects the LGBT community either, but rather one that affects millions of young adults every year. That's the real problem, usage of this kind of language on TL, within SC, or where ever else is simply a symptom of the larger problem.
On October 28 2011 06:43 spree wrote: A lot of you guys are missing the point.. I used to use faggot and other slurs all the time and to me it was okay because I wasn't using them to insult gay people, I was just using them to express anger and discontent.
However it's not just about your intent, the word faggot still has its homophobic origins and carries a derogatory meaning, regardless of your intent. And by using such words you are promoting those negative ideals even if it's not something you intended to do. Basically restating the OP but nobody bothered to read it because it was long.
There's two sides to the debate: 1. We should change our language regardless of intent. [Use another word because the possibility of offending someone in this specific case can be fatal.] 2. Intent supercedes language. [I don't intend to offend gays. If I let language supercede intent there is no end to to this - I will always be forced to cater to endless demands]
Neither is right. There's no hard line anyone can draw. At least this thread is spreading information so people can justify their choice internally.
If neither is right then why is racist slurs cracked down on very hard? Afterall they're just words Saying that is a different case is just insanely ignorant. Infact it's very damn obvious the simmilarities and even though it's the internet you don't allow it. So would it kill you to not use the N word including the fag word? You don't have to be a hypocrite just because it seems subjective ( guess what words are subjective) But why did we ban racial slurs? Also for the same suicide/violence and hurtful meanings REALIZE THAT THEN period
In the same sense I could rage about homosexuals and you using the word "gay". It was supposed to mean "happy", somehow everyone forgot about that and hijacked it. Gay bashing is bad, but don't try to pretend you can change the way language is developing. Nobody has ever succeeded, it's just a waste of time.
On October 28 2011 06:01 Djabanete wrote: To put it another way: Suppose that people use the name "Joe" to mean "total moron," because back in the day people thought anyone called "Joe" was a total moron. Plenty of people still do think that Joes are total morons. Your name is Joe. Happy?
People use my name to describe sleezy men who visit prostitutes, I don't give a shit. I asked the prostitutes I visit and they aren't offended either.
Belano wrote: I agree 100% with the OP and what TheToast was saying. I really don't think it's too much to ask that If you're going to insult someone you do it in a slightly less dickish way.
Congratulations. You have just offended everyone named Dick by equating all Dicks with being dicks.
That last example doesn't work. Being a dick is an adjective, while dick is a noun...so you can't confuse the two because they're used in different contexts.
I feel like this is a troll post, but I can't really...
On October 28 2011 05:48 Audemed wrote: Ok, so if i say "nice cannon rush you fag", you would consider me a contributor toward homo suicide?
Sorry, but I don't buy that. Suicide is a coward's way out, fucking man up and face the music. I have *no* sympathy for anyone who commits suicide. I'm sorry, you took the easy way out and likely hurt the people who DID care about you.
So preventing a suicide is not important. Telling someone to "man up" in the face of mental breakdowns, harassment, and having no friends is like telling a crippled old man who is in a wheelchair to kick himself because he cant walk up a flight of stairs. You have NO sympathy for children and teenagers on the edge of suicide, and somehow you also think that it is easy?
You're right, it is the easy way out, dammit, but that doesn't mean that you tell someone to "fucking man up and face the music". You wanna be on the edge of suicide sometime, with a gun next to you and a whole lot of reason to use it?
That being said, I never insult my opponents ever, just because I never know who might be on the other side of the screen, and what might happen as a result of their being mocked.
I've been diagnosed with post deployment PTSD. I have had far more reasons to pull the trigger than some pussy who doesn't like being called names, and I have the means available to do it 24/7. I have considered it once, and understood it's not the solution. Get off your proverbial high ground, you tard. I'm quite versed in the overarching suicide situation, and my view on it still stands. No sympathy.
User was warned for this post
Your circumstances are your own, and it's admirable that you didn't take your life when you were considering it. But there's a difference between disagreeing with an act (and I share your feelings there) and sympathizing with a person who's suffering.
In other words, if people are killing themselves, there's a big problem beyond the simple fact that they're killing themselves.
Well, yeah, I'm not saying I have no sympathy for people who ARE in distress (you have to be pretty cold), but once they DO commit the act, that sympathy disappears.
I'm all for a gay progamers to come out of the closet, because it will give gay nerds an example, someone who proves your sexual orientation shouldn't be an obstacle to achieve your goals. Like the color of your skin, your gender, things you cannot change yourself.
That being said, I'm with Destiny/Debo on the offensive language department:
It's words. a few letters. You should ask yourself, why does "gay" or "faggot" offend me? Instead be proud of it, of who you are, not ashamed of it.
Oh and a side note, everytime I see gl hf <3, or gl hf :D, gl hf I assume cheese and 90% of the times it's the case. Maybe that's a part of the reason people react like that too
I'm all for the gays even though I don't share their love of cock but gay as a derogatory term is a part of my vocabulary. I don't think it's any fairer for homosexuals to ask me to stop using gay the way I do than it is for me to ask them to stop ruining my insult with all their worries that I might be meaning them. When I call something gay I do not mean that it wants to have sex with another man, nor that it is comparable to two men having sex. A word can have multiple meanings, either you compromise and agree to stick to the intended meaning or you find new words to replace the unclear old words. I think we can share it.
On October 28 2011 05:48 Audemed wrote: Ok, so if i say "nice cannon rush you fag", you would consider me a contributor toward homo suicide?
Sorry, but I don't buy that. Suicide is a coward's way out, fucking man up and face the music. I have *no* sympathy for anyone who commits suicide. I'm sorry, you took the easy way out and likely hurt the people who DID care about you.
So preventing a suicide is not important. Telling someone to "man up" in the face of mental breakdowns, harassment, and having no friends is like telling a crippled old man who is in a wheelchair to kick himself because he cant walk up a flight of stairs. You have NO sympathy for children and teenagers on the edge of suicide, and somehow you also think that it is easy?
You're right, it is the easy way out, dammit, but that doesn't mean that you tell someone to "fucking man up and face the music". You wanna be on the edge of suicide sometime, with a gun next to you and a whole lot of reason to use it?
That being said, I never insult my opponents ever, just because I never know who might be on the other side of the screen, and what might happen as a result of their being mocked.
I've been diagnosed with post deployment PTSD. I have had far more reasons to pull the trigger than some pussy who doesn't like being called names, and I have the means available to do it 24/7. I have considered it once, and understood it's not the solution. Get off your proverbial high ground, you tard. I'm quite versed in the overarching suicide situation, and my view on it still stands. No sympathy.
User was warned for this post
Your circumstances are your own, and it's admirable that you didn't take your life when you were considering it. But there's a difference between disagreeing with an act (and I share your feelings there) and sympathizing with a person who's suffering.
In other words, if people are killing themselves, there's a big problem beyond the simple fact that they're killing themselves.
Well, yeah, I'm not saying I have no sympathy for people who ARE in distress (you have to be pretty cold), but once they DO commit the act, that sympathy disappears.
Well I sure don't think this thread is about doing favors for the deceased, so I don't see how that matters here =p
Edit: I'm editing this in because it directly responds to Kwark's post even though it's buried above.
The problem lies in prejudice and not in nomenclature. "Gay" used as a pejorative basically carries all the prejudices about gay men with it. At its most removed from sexuality/gender concepts, it still means "cheap", "inferior", or "worthless." And it's also applied to things that are colorful, gaudy, or emotional in non-traditionally-masculine ways. The term as a pejorative encapsulates all the harmful prejudices we have about gay men, and that's why it's best left unsaid.
This is why I don't think the meanings should share the word. I don't think the pejorative meaning is separate enough from the primary meaning, when the prejudices still exist and the very words "gay" and "faggot" are used by some to perpetuate them.
On October 28 2011 05:54 stevarius wrote: I'd really like to know why suicide statistics are brought up in regards to using bm ingame. If you can't handle the language or the bad eggs of the community, their is always a filter built in to the game and one built between your ears.
Sorry I wasn't clear. When I say that blocking the chat won't fix the problem, the problem I am referring to is the culture of bullying that exists among the young adults in the US. It's not just an issue that affects the LGBT community either, but rather one that affects millions of young adults every year. That's the real problem, usage of this kind of language on TL, within SC, or where ever else is simply a symptom of the larger problem.
Where did this sudden bullying obsession in America come from? Bullying has been going on for decades. Hell, it's probably been going on since the people developed language. It happens. Don't let your fucking kids have a Facebook account to prevent the online harassment. They can deal with it the same way we all did. I'm not just being a dick either. I mean, I AM being a dick, but I seriously don't understand this new obsession.
On October 28 2011 07:09 Apollo_Shards wrote: Wow, an internet community having people who are anti gay or use "gay" slurs? What a unique phenomena.
Spare us your sarcasm. If tl were any more pro gay I couldn't type cause of all the handjobs I'd be giving men.
Thats the point. This community isnt even anywhere near anti gay. THIS is what actually happens to reasonable communities. People claim offence about something and draw tons of unnecessary attention to it (we already have a thread about gay sc players). It is used as a common adjective (gay) when it isn't meant to be derogatory. Same thing happens with the word retard. People need to grow skin, ESPECIALLY on the internet.
On October 28 2011 05:54 stevarius wrote: I'd really like to know why suicide statistics are brought up in regards to using bm ingame. If you can't handle the language or the bad eggs of the community, their is always a filter built in to the game and one built between your ears.
Sorry I wasn't clear. When I say that blocking the chat won't fix the problem, the problem I am referring to is the culture of bullying that exists among the young adults in the US. It's not just an issue that affects the LGBT community either, but rather one that affects millions of young adults every year. That's the real problem, usage of this kind of language on TL, within SC, or where ever else is simply a symptom of the larger problem.
Where did this sudden bullying obsession in America come from? Bullying has been going on for decades. Hell, it's probably been going on since the people developed language. It happens. Don't let your fucking kids have a Facebook account to prevent the online harassment. They can deal with it the same way we all did. I'm not just being a dick either. I mean, I AM being a dick, but I seriously don't understand this new obsession.
You'd think, right? But evidently some people "deal with it" by killing themselves. Life is just funny that way.
To clarify, intent with regards to a specific case like derogatory terms is different than say a criminal case. In one case, using words like faggot is similar to why we cut down on racist things like nigger. If you use such a word, then you are contributing to an atmosphere/culture of negativity, even if you are only using it to express frustration or whatever.
But in a criminal case, intent plays a different role, because it establishes legal responsibility and stuff like that. And then in the more general sense, if you commit a crime mistakenly, intent does remove your liability from the crime but mostly explains or justifies your actions.
In the end, time will be the solution. I think people will just move on to different words. After retard I'm not sure what will be left HA ha hd uR Du r.
On October 28 2011 07:12 Zandar wrote: I'm all for a gay progamers to come out of the closet, because it will give gay nerds an example, someone who proves your sexual orientation shouldn't be an obstacle to achieve your goals. Like the color of your skin, your gender, things you cannot change yourself.
It's words. a few letters. You should ask yourself, why does "gay" or "faggot" offend me? Instead be proud of it, of who you are, not ashamed of it.
Oh and a side note, everytime I see gl hf <3, or gl hf :D, gl hf I assume cheese and 90% of the times it's the case. Maybe that's a part of the reason people react like that too
I agree with you.
When I think about this, it occurs to me that offending actually starts at the person being OFFENDED. Like you have so eloquently said, they are just words essentially. I mean, I think obviously there's a certain tone that people have when referring to other people in a derogatory way, and there's not just one. This thread talks a lot about people of the homosexual nature, and I'm sure other famous references have been made such as nigger, wetback, chink, etc etc (lol, c wat i did ther?) But something I've noticed is that even without these words, offense can still be taken. Some people refer to these people as snobs, because they have this attitude that they are smarter than you, and they do know more - You could say it was their tone.
But can it really be the tone? Or is there something more? You see, the tone itself can sound offensive but couldn't we defend this with "this is how they always talk?" People use to say to me all the time that I SOUNDED like I was assuming they were dumb, but what was happening was this was just my normal tone. I've come to hear it sometimes now, and can change it for fear of doing that, but I didn't know that people thought it sounded like I thought I was smarter than them.
These thoughts lead me to the conclusion that perhaps offense is not created necessarily by the offender, but can also be created by the offended. Look at people's attachments to words in general - marriage? The Christian religion (I've specifically heard the LDS Church say this, and a few of my christian friends) wants to protect the idea of marriage, because their beliefs say that only a man and a woman should be married. Or the word pwned? I can't tell you how many of me and my gamer friends were disgusted when we heard people using that word. That was our word, and we didn't like that those who we didn't think truly as gamers should use it.
This isn't uncommon - Names of teams, countries, languages, even specifying someone's else language as "symbols" is offensive to some because of their attachment to the idea that it's an "alphabet." The point that I am trying to arrive to is that taking offense is still done on the part of the offended, but not always. However, it's important to recognize the differences when someone is using a word in a different way (not to offend) and when someone is using it on purpose to offend.
Or to put my entire sentiments in short- Whatever.
I'll continue to use gay loosely and rarely imply anything about sexuality when I use it. If we were to start a language crusade raped would be more pertinent to stop the use of rather than gay or faggot.
However- Fuck that. Language in all its colorful and often times cruel manifestations is what makes conversation interesting. Unless someone is physically threatening another person over their sexuality I don't think the language they casually use in a game is very important.
@hoby2000: And what's your intention behind the word "gay" then? Can you define it?
As I explained in a post somewhere on this page, to me it's basically a synthesis of unfortunate stereotypes and prejudices about gay men, but applied to things other than men. Cheapness, inferior quality, gaudiness, showiness, effeminacy, display of emotion, etc.
I think that the word's pejorative use smacks of prejudice even if you're not using to stir up prejudice, or even thinking about it. But not thinking about something doesn't make it go away.
Edit: @ Probe1: For what it's worth, I think "raped" is in pretty bad taste as well. And I don't bother crusading about it either; I don't recall talking about this before this thread, but it's what the thread is about, so it's what I think.
So...the average may be 10 in every 250 for the GSL, but that's just an average. It wouldn't be hard to believe that none of them are gay, because averages aren't 100% truths, or ALWAYS applicable.
This is not including how gay we'd all go for MKP.
im a happy person, im offended that people are using the word gay to talk about penis's going up bums. gay means happy and it offends happy people to have our word stolen like this
On October 28 2011 08:33 turdburgler wrote: im a happy person, im offended that people are using the word gay to talk about penis's going up bums. gay means happy and it offends happy people to have our word stolen like this
Those terms are standard English words... but some people use it as slang and altered the meaning of the words... from its true meaning...
faggot 1. a bundle of sticks or twigs, esp when bound together and used as fuel 2. a bundle of iron bars, esp a box formed by four pieces of wrought iron and filled with scrap to be forged into wrought iron 3. a ball of chopped meat, usually pork liver, bound with herbs and bread and eaten fried 4. a bundle of anything
gay year 1178, "full of joy or mirth," Synonyms 3. gleeful, jovial, glad, joyous, happy, cheerful, sprightly, blithe, airy, light-hearted; vivacious, frolicsome, sportive, hilarious. Gay, jolly, joyful, merry describe a happy or light-hearted mood. Gay suggests a lightness of heart or liveliness of mood that is openly manifested: when hearts were young and gay. Jolly indicates a good-humored, natural, expansive gaiety of mood or disposition: a jolly crowd at a party. Joyful suggests gladness, happiness, rejoicing: joyful over the good news. Merry is often interchangeable with gay: a merry disposition; a merry party; it suggests, even more than the latter, convivial animated enjoyment. 4. brilliant.
out of anger i sometimes call people fag's when i lost and they were being jerks about it. i guess i should start using other words, very nice thread and thanks! in a way this is starting to remind me about the n-word O:
Oh come the fuck on. We shouldn't have to walk on eggshells to avoid offending people. Political correctness is ridiculous and society needs to be less so. You get offended because you CHOOSE to be offended by it. I use to be a giant fat-ass and after a while, never got offended when people called me names because I CHOSE to not be offended. Grow up and get over it.
Also, protip: people who you think are "gaybashing" aren't. For example, the word "faggot" is not usually used as a derogatory term for a homosexual. It's most often used as a synonym for "scrub", "idiot", "dickhead", or what have you. Language evolves, get used to it.
OP is making mountains out of molehills. If you EVER get offended by anything said to you by an SC2 opponent, you have some serious problems. Realize this is the internet and move on. As for progamers, I doubt that hate from peers is a factor in coming out or not. Even saying a homophobic slur in any televised game is a quick way to get ostracized by the hyper-sensitive online gay community.
I don't really see your generalizations as accurate, you cant just say 4% of people are gay therefore 4% of people that play starcraft are gay, that's like saying 10x more men play video games than women therefore hello kitties player base is almost entirely male. After the 3rd statistic I was trying to figure out what the point of this was, and I guess you want to community to stop using words associated with homosexuality in a derogatory way. Well, no.
When I say that cheesers are gay, I mean they suck dicks, and when I say they suck dicks, I mean they are heterosexuals that are forced to suck dicks because they cheese. They don't enjoy it and that is why it is an insult. I'm not bashing homosexuals, I've been friends with 2 for over 10 years, I use the phrase "that was so gay" almost all the time. Not because it was gay but because that it is culturally understood that gay means perverse, and perverse means something I don't want to see. Bigots gave the word a negative connotation and now I use it... wait wtf, some ignorant faggot created a hurtful word out of a word that means happy, and now I use it whenever I am uncomfortable...
Let's just arrive at a common conclusion that name-calling at all is childish and has no place among civilized society. If you really can't express yourself without using name-calling words, then you shouldn't say anything.
Don't get me wrong, I get mad on the ladder just like anybody else, but I think the essence of name-calling at all means you're a poor communicator and I guarantee you wouldn't ever say stuff like that to somebody's face, because you know if you did you'd probably get your ass kicked.
So, just be aware that the next time you go spouting off name-calling words, you sound like a child that shouldn't be allowed on mommy and daddy's computer. Even if you are a smart person in reality, that's how you come across to me, and do you want to go around parading that image to people you don't know?
Secondly, people say stupid stuff on the internet all the time. Taking offense to it is something you choose to do, whether you consciously believe it. You can choose to ignore it and move on, or you can choose to dwell on it and be angry. Ultimately, they don't know you as a person, so their comments toward your sexuality, intelligence or whatever mean absolutely nothing. Treat it as nothing, and it won't bother you.
Frankly, I don't know that it's really important to know the gender, race, sexual orientation or whatever about another person that I don't know. Even if I know them, why should I care if they are black, white, straight, gay, whatever? It has no pertinence to my relationship with them as a person, so I don't see why it's important.
I'm all for equal rights and think it's quite ridiculous that, legally, people can't recognize a civil union (or marriage or whatever word you want to use to describe it) among two same-gendered people. I don't see what the point of restricting it is, the same as I don't see what the point of knowing whether somebody is gay or not. It really doesn't matter. What people do in their personal lives doesn't hurt me or anybody else, so who gives a shit?
As a short, pasty, glasses-wearing nerd growing up, all these gay people complaining about being bullied and made fun of really crack me up. Not only are they just words, but at least in the context of this thread you aren't even being made fun of.
I think that there is no insult that wouldn´t hurt a specific group of people. Idiot, retard, jerk, hell even motherfucker would hurt somebodys feelings. So either you should be arguing against bad language in general or you are as narrow minded as everyone using those terms.
I don't like gay people, I see no problem with that. I don't like douches as well. If someone is gay I'll call him "gay". If someone is a douche I'll call him "douche".
Afterall, you are the one that should assume being gay :D
I'm pretty sure it's not intentional, no one sets out to "gay bash" when they throw around these words. It sucks that it happens and yes it's not a very mature way of expressing yourself, but with the Internet and anonymity people don't really take other peoples feelings into account as nearly as much as they should.
I do take offense to the argument that people are allowing themselves to be offended by it though. I imagine the majority of people playing SC2 are straight caucasian males who generally aren't classified as a minority and don't have any particularly hateful words directed towards them. Without being in a minority and knowing first hand what effect a word can have, I don't think you have a place to tell someone whether they should or shouldn't be offended by it.
I read the first page of this thread and found it so depressing I couldn't go on. OP, I'm wholeheartedly agree with you and I find the response in this thread to be patently awful.
On October 28 2011 10:56 R1CH wrote: I'm pretty sure it's not intentional, no one sets out to "gay bash" when they throw around these words. It sucks that it happens and yes it's not a very mature way of expressing yourself, but with the Internet and anonymity people don't really take other peoples feelings into account as nearly as much as they should.
I do take offense to the argument that people are allowing themselves to be offended by it though. I imagine the majority of people playing SC2 are straight caucasian males who generally aren't classified as a minority and don't have any particularly hateful words directed towards them. Without being in a minority and knowing first hand what effect a word can have, I don't think you have a place to tell someone whether they should or shouldn't be offended by it.
Maybe, but all the same, best to be cautious and be polite.
On October 28 2011 10:56 R1CH wrote: I'm pretty sure it's not intentional, no one sets out to "gay bash" when they throw around these words. It sucks that it happens and yes it's not a very mature way of expressing yourself, but with the Internet and anonymity people don't really take other peoples feelings into account as nearly as much as they should.
I do take offense to the argument that people are allowing themselves to be offended by it though. I imagine the majority of people playing SC2 are straight caucasian males who generally aren't classified as a minority and don't have any particularly hateful words directed towards them. Without being in a minority and knowing first hand what effect a word can have, I don't think you have a place to tell someone whether they should or shouldn't be offended by it.
why do you need to be the minority to be the 'victim' of hateful words? im a young white male, but im also short. ive had people take the piss out of me all my life for it. i dont take any special offence to height jokes or jibes than i do any other kind of rude language. i dont feel offended when the word short is used in a normal sentence or when its used to describe someone, even when that description is rude too them.
maybe being gay is different, being black is different. but for me there are 100s of things for people to be the minority of. being male is a minority, being short being fat. and yet there seems to be this spectrum of which is more serious.
people should stop trying to argue that their minority is more important or needs defending, and argue that all rude things are bad, seperating yourself from the crowd by being a supporter of gay rights or whatever just comes across (to me) as a self serving attitude, people should campaign for human rights, not just the rights of people like them.
On October 28 2011 10:56 R1CH wrote: I do take offense to the argument that people are allowing themselves to be offended by it though. I imagine the majority of people playing SC2 are straight caucasian males who generally aren't classified as a minority and don't have any particularly hateful words directed towards them. Without being in a minority and knowing first hand what effect a word can have, I don't think you have a place to tell someone whether they should or shouldn't be offended by it.
I imagine the majority of people playing SC2 are classified as a minority called nerds
But joking aside, I really do think there is a choice, you always have the option to grow a though skin and choose not to be offended.
why do you need to be the minority to be the 'victim' of hateful words? im a young white male, but im also short. ive had people take the piss out of me all my life for it. i dont take any special offence to height jokes or jibes than i do any other kind of rude language. i dont feel offended when the word short is used in a normal sentence or when its used to describe someone, even when that description is rude too them.
maybe being gay is different, being black is different. but for me there are 100s of things for people to be the minority of. being male is a minority, being short being fat. and yet there seems to be this spectrum of which is more serious.
people should stop trying to argue that their minority is more important or needs defending, and argue that all rude things are bad, seperating yourself from the crowd by being a supporter of gay rights or whatever just comes across (to me) as a self serving attitude, people should campaign for human rights, not just the rights of people like them.
Except that being black or gay is different from being short or fat or some other arbitrary condition. Groups that have been historically victimized or oppressed are likely to take offense at the use of words that have been historically used to victimize and oppress them, setting up a false equivalency does your argument no justice.
On October 28 2011 10:56 R1CH wrote: I'm pretty sure it's not intentional, no one sets out to "gay bash" when they throw around these words. It sucks that it happens and yes it's not a very mature way of expressing yourself, but with the Internet and anonymity people don't really take other peoples feelings into account as nearly as much as they should.
I do take offense to the argument that people are allowing themselves to be offended by it though. I imagine the majority of people playing SC2 are straight caucasian males who generally aren't classified as a minority and don't have any particularly hateful words directed towards them. Without being in a minority and knowing first hand what effect a word can have, I don't think you have a place to tell someone whether they should or shouldn't be offended by it.
why do you need to be the minority to be the 'victim' of hateful words? im a young white male, but im also short. ive had people take the piss out of me all my life for it. i dont take any special offence to height jokes or jibes than i do any other kind of rude language. i dont feel offended when the word short is used in a normal sentence or when its used to describe someone, even when that description is rude too them.
The problem isn't with the word "gay", it's with the context it is used in. I have yet to meet a homosexual that had a problem being called gay.
The problem arises with using "gay" as an insult. This implies that being gay is something that you should be ashamed of, that it is a bad thing. This is where the homophobia arises, not simply in the use of the term.
maybe being gay is different, being black is different. but for me there are 100s of things for people to be the minority of. being male is a minority, being short being fat. and yet there seems to be this spectrum of which is more serious.
people should stop trying to argue that their minority is more important or needs defending, and argue that all rude things are bad, seperating yourself from the crowd by being a supporter of gay rights or whatever just comes across (to me) as a self serving attitude, people should campaign for human rights, not just the rights of people like them.
And saying that being a supporter of gay rights is self serving is wrong for two reasons.
Firstly, its not just gay people that are in support of it, and secondly, that's like saying that the whole civil rights movement was just self serving. And even if it is "self-serving", why is this a bad thing?
On October 28 2011 10:56 R1CH wrote: I'm pretty sure it's not intentional, no one sets out to "gay bash" when they throw around these words. It sucks that it happens and yes it's not a very mature way of expressing yourself, but with the Internet and anonymity people don't really take other peoples feelings into account as nearly as much as they should.
I do take offense to the argument that people are allowing themselves to be offended by it though. I imagine the majority of people playing SC2 are straight caucasian males who generally aren't classified as a minority and don't have any particularly hateful words directed towards them. Without being in a minority and knowing first hand what effect a word can have, I don't think you have a place to tell someone whether they should or shouldn't be offended by it.
why do you need to be the minority to be the 'victim' of hateful words? im a young white male, but im also short. ive had people take the piss out of me all my life for it. i dont take any special offence to height jokes or jibes than i do any other kind of rude language. i dont feel offended when the word short is used in a normal sentence or when its used to describe someone, even when that description is rude too them.
maybe being gay is different, being black is different. but for me there are 100s of things for people to be the minority of. being male is a minority, being short being fat. and yet there seems to be this spectrum of which is more serious.
people should stop trying to argue that their minority is more important or needs defending, and argue that all rude things are bad, seperating yourself from the crowd by being a supporter of gay rights or whatever just comes across (to me) as a self serving attitude, people should campaign for human rights, not just the rights of people like them.
Being male is not a minority in the same way as being homosexual or female or african american or any number of other things are. (Being short and fat aren't either, especially given the obesity problem in America). When you walk down the street at night you don't have to be afraid of random men giving you cat calls and getting raped.
According to United States Department of Justice document Criminal Victimization in the United States, there were overall 191,670 victims of rape or sexual assault reported in 2005.[20] 1 of 6 U.S. women has experienced an attempted or completed rape. (according to Colorado Coalition Against Sexual Assault)
You don't have to be afraid to getting killed because some guys think you're gay and decide a fun way to spend the night is to bash your head in. You don't have to worry about being disowned by your own family for being "Short" or a "Nerd". You don't have to worry about having a hide an essential part of you in fear of extreme alienation and judgement by your peers (by this I don't mean typical "bullying" as there are many worse things). Self-hate and depression are huge problems due to feeling "not normal". Being nerdy and being short isn't "not normal" in the same sense as being homosexual is by any measure.
Teens faced harassment, threats, and violence. In the US, students heard anti-gay slurs such as “homo”, “faggot” and “sissy” about 26 times a day on average, or once every 14 minutes, according to a 1998 study by Mental Health America.[4] About two-thirds of gay and lesbian students in Britain’s schools have suffered from gay bullying, a survey by the Schools Health Education Unit found. Almost all that had been bullied had experience verbal attacks, 41 percent had been physically attacked, and 17 percent had received death threats.[5] There is a high rate of suicide among gay men and lesbian women. According to a 1979 Jay and Young study, 40 percent of gay men and 39 percent of gay women in the US had attempted or seriously thought about suicide.[6] In 1985, F. Paris estimated that suicides by gay youth may comprise up to 30 percent of all youth suicides in the US.[6] The American Foundation for Suicide Prevention has found that gay, lesbian and bisexual youth attempt suicide at a rate three to six times that of similar-age heterosexual youth.[7]
I'm not even going to GET into the issue of race.
Being a white male is basically fucking awesome in America. Everyone else gets it way worse.
The whole point of the article isn't to prove that the use of homophobic language on the internet is gaybashing in action, the point is that for gay people hearing homophobic slang used around them all the time causes massive amounts of stress, anxiety and even feelings of inferiority. I can't even imagine what must be going through people's heads to think that living your life hearing people using language that demeans you and that your characteristics are so negative that they make a suitable insult would't make you feel worse, that hearing people insult you your whole life would be fine because they were just kidding.
You people who say "toughen up" absolutely disgust me. How can you tell someone to toughen up? When was the last time someone on the internet insulted you because of your race or your heritage or your sexual orientation? Do you actually believe that gay people who feel the desire to not be insulted for their sexual orientation don't deserve to be on the internet? Do you actually think that just because the person flaming doesn't actually know if that the person they are calling fa**** is homosexual makes it not hurt at all to hear it? Bottom line for me is that if you expect a black person to just sit there while you call him a ni**** then you are a racist, and if you expect a gay person to just sit there and let you call him fa****, even on the internet then you are homophobic, and if they called you on it and you would feel the need to apologize then why the hell are you calling people that in the first place?
I don't understand how it isn't completely obvious and a no brainer, but homophobic language is hurtful maybe even more so when it is a joke and should be avoided. I think less of people for using homophobic language and I am proud to do so. The SC2 scene is full of great people and has every reason to be able to transcend the problems that make the rest of the internet a horrible place.
I did not even know Faggot stood for a homosexual person until I Googled it just now from reading these comments. Regardless, as a member of the debate team, I always tell myself and others never to use the word gay, as if you have nothing against them, there are always better terms. Fag, huh I feel bad for using that word so often now.
On October 28 2011 03:37 sealpuncher wrote: I'm going to just say that when people throw faggot and homo and gay around on the internet they are almost never trying to insult you because of your sexual orientation. When you all in someone and they call you a faggot, they are just angry at your behavior in game. It has nothing to do with your actual sexual orientation. I usually open up my game by typing out extremely ... straight ... song lyrics and I still get called faggot half the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yh7TVDXH8Y Don't you see the similarities between this video and what you're saying? You can't just "take back" a word with an extensive history of being used to insult a specific group of people (even up the current day) and repurpose it. It will always carry the homophobic meaning whether you intend it or not. THE REASON it is offensive is because it is meant to be offensive for a straight man to be called gay, because gay people are supposedly inferior.
The meaning of words is determined by the majority. Sort of like how gay got changed from meaning happy to meaning homosexual. Terms like Faggot are undergoing the same treatment, I think the future generations will not know what terms like faggot were meant to be used for and won't correlate it with homosexuality.
Except "faggot" is still the insult of choice for bullies looking to pick on gay kids. I don't understand how you can argue that this isn't the most widely used and deeply ingrained meaning of the word in the United States.
Well, words more often than not have multiple meanings. For example, gay can mean happy, or it can mean homosexual. These days, faggot can be a homophobic slur, or it can just mean that you're an idiot or a dick. Remember that South Park episode with the biker gang? When they all roll through town on their big loud motorcycles looking for attention they are being faggots. It's not because they are acting like homosexuals, but because they are being idiots/dicks. I think that, as with many words with multiple definitions, the definition we choose to interpret from it ultimately comes down to context.
Another example would be the word "bitch." This word can be interpreted as "female dog" or a slur against women. When we hear someone refer to a female dog as a bitch, we never think of it as a slur against women. The same can be said about "faggot." If somebody pours a class of water over his friends head, and in response his friend calls him a "faggot", he is not using the word to compare his water-dumping friend to a homosexual. He is just saying that is friend is being a moron or a dick.
I find the American Sc2 community really offensive to everything that isnt caucasian male.If you ever played a game of mafia and didn't hear a "nigger" or "blacks should die" you deserve a prize,or even joined a stream chat,there are no reasonable arguments going on there only pointless banther,witchunting and bashing.I agree with OP 100% and I think the AM community is really lacking in respect.
why do you need to be the minority to be the 'victim' of hateful words? im a young white male, but im also short. ive had people take the piss out of me all my life for it. i dont take any special offence to height jokes or jibes than i do any other kind of rude language. i dont feel offended when the word short is used in a normal sentence or when its used to describe someone, even when that description is rude too them.
maybe being gay is different, being black is different. but for me there are 100s of things for people to be the minority of. being male is a minority, being short being fat. and yet there seems to be this spectrum of which is more serious.
people should stop trying to argue that their minority is more important or needs defending, and argue that all rude things are bad, seperating yourself from the crowd by being a supporter of gay rights or whatever just comes across (to me) as a self serving attitude, people should campaign for human rights, not just the rights of people like them.
Except that being black or gay is different from being short or fat or some other arbitrary condition. Groups that have been historically victimized or oppressed are likely to take offense at the use of words that have been historically used to victimize and oppress them, setting up a false equivalency does your argument no justice.
historically people of the 'wrong weight' have been victimised too. people have been laughing at midgets for 100s of years, i dont see your point.
Sigh, This topic never goes anywhere. Just mass flaming. The same issue came up and was a big deal at my high school my senior year.
That being said. I frequently use the word gay and faggot in place of the word stupid and i'm not gonna stop. Same reason as why i'm not going to NOT say rape in reference to gaming. Different contexts. I would never say faggot or rape in front of a gay person or rape victim same as how i wouldn't say "damn that bitch is faaaawwking hawt" in front of my mom even if i would in front of my friends. Context matters.
A large part of it stems from the fact that the majority of the gaming population is still in their teenaged/young adult years and simply don't know any better or have been conditioned by social pressures to conform to the prevailing notion (in certain areas) that this sort of behavior is ok.
On October 28 2011 10:56 R1CH wrote: I'm pretty sure it's not intentional, no one sets out to "gay bash" when they throw around these words. It sucks that it happens and yes it's not a very mature way of expressing yourself, but with the Internet and anonymity people don't really take other peoples feelings into account as nearly as much as they should.
I do take offense to the argument that people are allowing themselves to be offended by it though. I imagine the majority of people playing SC2 are straight caucasian males who generally aren't classified as a minority and don't have any particularly hateful words directed towards them. Without being in a minority and knowing first hand what effect a word can have, I don't think you have a place to tell someone whether they should or shouldn't be offended by it.
why do you need to be the minority to be the 'victim' of hateful words? im a young white male, but im also short. ive had people take the piss out of me all my life for it. i dont take any special offence to height jokes or jibes than i do any other kind of rude language. i dont feel offended when the word short is used in a normal sentence or when its used to describe someone, even when that description is rude too them.
The problem isn't with the word "gay", it's with the context it is used in. I have yet to meet a homosexual that had a problem being called gay.
The problem arises with using "gay" as an insult. This implies that being gay is something that you should be ashamed of, that it is a bad thing. This is where the homophobia arises, not simply in the use of the term.
maybe being gay is different, being black is different. but for me there are 100s of things for people to be the minority of. being male is a minority, being short being fat. and yet there seems to be this spectrum of which is more serious.
people should stop trying to argue that their minority is more important or needs defending, and argue that all rude things are bad, seperating yourself from the crowd by being a supporter of gay rights or whatever just comes across (to me) as a self serving attitude, people should campaign for human rights, not just the rights of people like them.
And saying that being a supporter of gay rights is self serving is wrong for two reasons.
Firstly, its not just gay people that are in support of it, and secondly, that's like saying that the whole civil rights movement was just self serving. And even if it is "self-serving", why is this a bad thing?
because it sounds like its being done for the wrong reasons. you arent saying gay bashing is wrong, you are saying bashing me is wrong, fuck the other guy.
like i said in my post. ive put up with short being used as a describing word and as an insult too. i didnt choose to be short, most people arent short. people use swear words in many situations, the primary examples seem to be the school yard and over the internet. admittedly i dont see anyone making short jokes over the internet, but i can relate to the school yard example and imo thats enough.
the short jokes never bothered me, not once. maybe im just dead inside but they really didnt. every kid develops a thick skin in school to verbal abuse, thats just how it is. im not saying its good or right or anything like that, its just how it is. whether you are short, fat, black, gay, tall, white, stupid, ginger. kids will find something, anything, no matter how rediculous and take the piss out of you. why is gay different or special?
can you understand the resentment some people feel when sexuality is put on a pedestal as this off limits area? someone gets called a ginger or fat and its "kids will be kids", a kid makes a gay joke and shit hits the fan.
making shit about someone being gay is bad, and im sure its truely horrible for some people, my point is only that theres this huge spectrum of less bad and more bad swear words, and i dont see why.
This link to a website of examples of microaggressions and how they hurt/alienate/dehumanize others http://microaggressions.com/
“No offense, but that’s seriously gay.” Quote - Permalink A friend of mine, after telling them about a teacher failing me over a miscommunication. Said friend is one of the few people who knows that I am queer. Made me realize that this friend really doesn’t understand what it’s like to be queer. Almost made me feel like I wasn’t allowed to be angry at this statement, because they’d starting it off with ‘no offense.’
Okay you convinced me, I will not use the word "gay" in any negative context anymore ! I never used "fag" or nothing because that's just mean but I also never considered "gay" can also be mean in such contexts.
I successfully got rid of the word "rape" in similar situations so now I try again. : )
On October 28 2011 12:23 chaoser wrote: If you guys really want to know why saying those things actually does affect people, you can look up what microaggressions are.
“No offense, but that’s seriously gay.” Quote - Permalink A friend of mine, after telling them about a teacher failing me over a miscommunication. Said friend is one of the few people who knows that I am queer. Made me realize that this friend really doesn’t understand what it’s like to be queer. Almost made me feel like I wasn’t allowed to be angry at this statement, because they’d starting it off with ‘no offense.’
but this isnt specific to homophobia, this is why this thread annoys me. its not about stoping microaggression in general language because of the affect it has on people, its specific to microaggression against the gay community. thats why i said its self serving and thats why i dont like it.
On October 28 2011 12:23 chaoser wrote: If you guys really want to know why saying those things actually does affect people, you can look up what microaggressions are.
This link to a website of examples of microaggressions and how they hurt/alienate/dehumanize others http://microaggressions.com/
“No offense, but that’s seriously gay.” Quote - Permalink A friend of mine, after telling them about a teacher failing me over a miscommunication. Said friend is one of the few people who knows that I am queer. Made me realize that this friend really doesn’t understand what it’s like to be queer. Almost made me feel like I wasn’t allowed to be angry at this statement, because they’d starting it off with ‘no offense.’
but this isnt specific to homophobia, this is why this thread annoys me. its not about stoping microaggression in general language because of the affect it has on people, its specific to microaggression against the gay community. thats why i said its self serving and thats why i dont like it.
While I do agree that all forms of microaggression should be stopped in some way or form, I do think that each specific "category" of discrimination needs to be separated for any actual work in it to be done. The civil rights movement in the 1960s focused mainly on sexual equality and race equality in relation to black-white relations. And they were both carried out by different groups. While it would be ideal for all the groups to band together to get rid of all forms of discrimination, it is sometimes very hard or even impossible for all groups to work together to bring attention to an issues. An example would be to look at black and homosexual relations and the homophobia that is a huge part of gangsta hip-hop.
I guess one can say it's self-serving but I think realistically, if people can't even agree to stop microaggression against one subgroup, they're definitely not going to agree with trying to stop microaggression against all groups.
In the case of homosexually in regards to video games as opposed to the case of being overweight in video games, when people lose, they usually don't say "you're such a fat fuck!", they generally say "you're gay" or "fucking homo" or "damn faggot". Do people still do microaggressions against over weight people? Yes, they definitely do. But homophobia is a lot more rampant.
i dont feel the civil rights movement is in the same boat though. how can black people of the 1950s help stamp out homphobia if they cant even sit on the bus. they clearly needed a more pragmatic approach to fixing their country.
but i think we can be idealistic in the approach to the school yard case, you can teach kids that all abuse is wrong quite easily.
As a white straight male, I generally have never experienced discrimination by race or sexual orientation, but in the 80s and such nerd was pretty much the insult of choice by bullies, and nowadays nerd is pretty much a huge banner for people who like video games.
The word faggot is essentially relegated to a generic insult, as has gay. I like to think that most homosexual people will eventually be able to realize that its relegated as such or be able to use the word similarly to how the word nerd is used.
With that said I don't support banning the statements, because the intent of the statement is what should matter much more than the words used to describe it. For example I have had several people close to me (2 friends and a girlfriend(rip)) commit suicide, but I don't go out and try to silence people who say that someone should go kill themselves. Most people who say something is Gay or that someone is a Faggot or that someone should kill themselves is venting frustration about a person or a situation, not looking to intentionally offend gays lesbians or survivors of people who committed suicide.
On October 28 2011 12:48 turdburgler wrote: i dont feel the civil rights movement is in the same boat though. how can black people of the 1950s help stamp out homphobia if they cant even sit on the bus. they clearly needed a more pragmatic approach to fixing their country.
but i think we can be idealistic in the approach to the school yard case, you can teach kids that all abuse is wrong quite easily.
Yes you can should in regards to the kids but in this particular case, since it's mainly do to homophobia/discrimination due to sexual preference, it should be highlighted. The "rest of the stuff" is not as relevant. I think saying "all types of bullying is bad" to the kid would have less of an affect than "do you realize why beating up a kid solely because he is homosexual is extremely wrong?" and then go on to explain it. And then using that as a jumping point, make the kid understand that bully in general is wrong since you are hurting and violating other people's pursuits of happiness and such.
Simple solution: everyone teaches their kids to not use words that might be hurtful to a person in that person's presence. If you want to use "faggot" as a derogatory term, go ahead -- nobody can stop you and you have that right -- but please, please, please consider those around you, and if anyone asks you not to use that word in front of them, please comply. Because whether or not you intend to hurt someone, you're still hurting them. I didn't intend to step on your foot, but by god, I still stepped on your foot, and it probably hurt, so I should probably apologize for it and get off your foot, right?
Point being: just be considerate. Intent means jackshit if someone is hurt.
With that said I don't support banning the statements, because the intent of the statement is what should matter much more than the words used to describe it.
Oh I agree that people can use whatever words they want to use. I just hope that people can be a bit more sensitive and understand the reasons and histories BEHIND the words and why they're harmful/hurtful. I use to use the N-word or gay or homo all the time with my friends but over time (and after being around and involved in a decent amount of civil/racial/sexual activism) I've definitely cut all usage of those words.
Been watching Louie recently and I think this clip covers the issue decently well.
I think people need to stop taking the internet so seriously. Typically speaking someone who insults another person, especially on the internet, with a derogatory term is generally unintelligent in the first place. Adding any merit to a "wtf u faggut" insult, or even getting emotional, is just plain stupid in my opinion. This is the internet, people will be assholes and people will say many dumb things that you don't agree with. While it is a shame that such is the case, and while I agree that any discrimination of any form is terrible, there's really nothing that can be done about it. I can understand that someone laughing, pointing fingers or shouting "You're gay!" or "You faggot!" in public would be crushing...but the internet? Come on..
I agree with what some of the OP says, don't get me wrong. But there's just no point at all in trying to clean internet chat up of all places.
On October 28 2011 07:54 Djabanete wrote: @hoby2000: And what's your intention behind the word "gay" then? Can you define it?
As I explained in a post somewhere on this page, to me it's basically a synthesis of unfortunate stereotypes and prejudices about gay men, but applied to things other than men. Cheapness, inferior quality, gaudiness, showiness, effeminacy, display of emotion, etc.
I think that the word's pejorative use smacks of prejudice even if you're not using to stir up prejudice, or even thinking about it. But not thinking about something doesn't make it go away.
Edit: @ Probe1: For what it's worth, I think "raped" is in pretty bad taste as well. And I don't bother crusading about it either; I don't recall talking about this before this thread, but it's what the thread is about, so it's what I think.
My intention is certainly not to offend. Homosexuals have as much as a right for using the word "gay" for homosexual as I do for using "gay" for stupid. The only reason people focus on the idea that it's wrong to use the word "gay" in place for stupid or lame is because they believe that homosexuals own the word - but they don't.
No one owns a word. The word "gay" meant something completely different before homosexuals started using it to describe themselves. In fact, I believe the only reason they used "gay" in the first place is because of the stereotype of homosexuals always sounding happy.
Also, you seem to have missed a majority of my reply. It doesn't matter what my intention is, because someone will take offense anyway - therefore meaning the offended create the feeling of being offended, instead of it being created by the offender.
With that said I don't support banning the statements, because the intent of the statement is what should matter much more than the words used to describe it.
Oh I agree that people can use whatever words they want to use. I just hope that people can be a bit more sensitive and understand the reasons and histories BEHIND the words and why they're harmful/hurtful. I use to use the N-word or gay or homo all the time with my friends but over time (and after being around and involved in a decent amount of civil/racial/sexual activism) I've definitely cut all usage of those words. Been watching Louie recently and I think this clip covers the issue decently well.
I totally agree with you, and I think that clip is fantastic at explaining it!
And I think people defending the use of such words with "oh but they don't MEAN it" or "oh they don't mean it THAT WAY" are missing the point. -how does the person on the receiving end KNOW you don't mean it? The other guy is a complete stranger. Maybe he's just a 12 year old kid who hears it at school and doesn't know any better. Or maybe he's a twentysomething male who goes out and beats the crap out of gay people on weekends. -"oh he doesn't mean faggot as in gay, he means it as in stupid". How is using the same word for being gay and for other negative qualities not also a bad thing?
And if you do think its wrong to use offensive terms when talking to other people online, please don't just shrug your shoulders and saw "oh its the internet, we can't change it". You can stop using those words yourself. You can ask your friends to stop using them. And if you're really brave, you can ask strangers to stop doing it too. And if you don't do that, why not?
On October 28 2011 10:56 R1CH wrote: I'm pretty sure it's not intentional, no one sets out to "gay bash" when they throw around these words. It sucks that it happens and yes it's not a very mature way of expressing yourself, but with the Internet and anonymity people don't really take other peoples feelings into account as nearly as much as they should.
I do take offense to the argument that people are allowing themselves to be offended by it though. I imagine the majority of people playing SC2 are straight caucasian males who generally aren't classified as a minority and don't have any particularly hateful words directed towards them. Without being in a minority and knowing first hand what effect a word can have, I don't think you have a place to tell someone whether they should or shouldn't be offended by it.
I disagree with this sentiment completely. Who cares if I'm a white male? Claiming that just because I was born as a white male means I that I lack the experience of being a minority doesn't mean that it some how plays favorably for me when I want to use these words. I'm not denying that people have had bad experiences with any of these slurs, but to claim that any of these experiences is less or more relevant than my experiences is ridiculous.
Experience =/= fact and is in fact it is more opinion than anything, because it's how you viewed the situation at hand (meaning, you put some sort of different aspect on it because of how YOU viewed it, and not a neutral view) So just because someone has a handful (or even more) of terrible experiences with people using a word in a derogatory fashion DOES NOT MEAN that the word is automatically derogatory regardless of how it is used - even if the word is used in a different derogatory way, such as "gay."
This whole argument is so hypocritical too - I mentioned in one of my previous posts on this blog that the LDS religion (and some other Christian sects) make claim to the word marriage, yet homosexuals are against this because these religions have no claim to the word. But when it comes around to homosexuals and the word "gay", suddenly they can claim THAT word?
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either homosexuals can no longer complain about people using the word "gay" (which they didn't even try to claim till the 60's), or they need to stop telling the LDS religion they can't claim the word marriage.
Side note: I'm not LDS (although I use to be), and I actually believe that EVERY human should have equal rights (regardless of their faith, skin color or sexual preference). I just feel like people give in to this sensational crap all the time without really thinking about whether or not it's logical in every situation. If you don't want people to claim a word, then stop claiming words yourself.
I respectfully disagree with this story. While he says people should not "dare" to change the meaning of the word, he has no right or control to dictate anything that is said - by anyone. I agree that it is offensive, but I also think that the word "faggot" is in the stage of evolving into a "generic" insult. This does not make it any less degrading, but turns it from a specifically targeted insult into one that is applicable to a range of situations, and should hopefully make it a less "personal" insult. This is of course my opinion, and I could be completely wrong. I have no data to back up my feeling and understanding on the development of the word.
Bear in mind that most people playing Starcraft are not gay, and that most people using it won't assume their opponent is gay. You don't see these threads over the usual swear words, and I don't think this should be treated any differently. If you get called a "fucking retard" in a game, it's not indicative of your actual mental state and so should be taken for what it is - an angry remark made by a frustrated player. This does not give him innocence, and a report to Blizzard is necessary for his lack of self restraint, but being hurt more because you/a friend is mentally handicapped will not improve the situation. In-game, people aren't going to know who's on the other side of the screen.
In real life, each case is situation dependent, and it can be a lot easier to verify if who you're insulting is actually homosexual, so I'll reserve my opinion on that.
The general problem as I see it is that "generalizing" the community actually differentiates between "im saying something is 'being a faggot'", and "i'm talking about someone being gay", and not only do they manage to differentiate, they actually don't think there's a problem.
like, "youre being retarded" sure it doesnt actually mean "i think you're mentally challenged, it's a different thing and a generalization made from the word retarded"...and people think that that somehow makes it okay. it somehow makes it less offensive to people sensitive of mentally handicapped people because its not a word specifically indicative OF mentally handicapped people anymore, even though that's what it originated from.
somehow "youre acting really faggoty (but don't worry im not calling you gay and gay people shouldnt be offended because its a generalized word with its own meaning and doesnt actually refer to gay people" SOMEHOW actually makes sense.
despite the word itself being associated with gay people and gay culture and the extreme negativeness around that. despite it still relating to that culture and the extreme negative view that persists about gay people even if they personally don't prejudice against gay people. despite that it's extremely negative and hateful about a community of people even IF you aren't talking specifically about gay people "anymore"
there isn't a single example where that word has been used in a positive loving way. and you using it in a hateful way to describe something else, even pretending it's not about anything related to gay people, is just ignorant.
would you run around telling your friend "you're acting like such a nigger" in public? he's not black. obviously he's not black and hey, there's nothing wrong with being black right? so why wouldn't you?
the answer is so painfully obvious i literally do not have the words to try to spell it out. - i genuinely cannot understand the stupidity of the argument that that is somehow alright. "because they're different things because we're not talking about gay people; it's just a general multi-definitonal term even though it all sprung from prejudice against gay culture and people and yeah okay it still actually is really hateful towards gay people but i mean...its alright cuz i explained it that way"...even though that way still makes you sound like a discriminating, hateful shit.
i think the big difference between words like Faggot and Nigger, is that one meant something before it became about homesexuals and the other was actaully a word based off Negro (the color) that was made specifically as a slur.
such as faggot initially meaning 1. a bundle of sticks or twigs, esp when bound together and used as fuel 2. (Engineering / Metallurgy) a bundle of iron bars, esp a box formed by four pieces of wrought iron and filled with scrap to be forged into wrought iron 3. (Cookery) a ball of chopped meat, usually pork liver, bound with herbs and bread and eaten fried 4. a bundle of anything vb (tr) 1. to collect into a bundle or bundles 2. (Clothing, Personal Arts & Crafts / Knitting & Sewing) Needlework to do faggoting on (a garment, piece of cloth, etc.)
i can see how most likely faggot was either turned into a racial slur in two situations, one is the use of definition number 3 as an insult (meat is a reference to the penis after all in some slang) or as the first defition maybe someone said "this topic is a faggot" or something like that meaning it's a very controversial topic and it becoming a slur.
The same can be used for almost every single modern curse word. However, then there are terms like nigger, cracker (which actually might have a basis in Crack :p ), wetback and most race based slurs. This is where the difference comes into play. I will defend anyone using the words that have changed meaning, it is only the words that were made specifically for a a group that i would find offense with. Some of them, such as retard, i feel insulted when people use as an insult. The origin of retard is actually an italian musical term to Slow Down the tempo, any musician of any instrument should know this term. It was only latered applied to people who before were generally called idiots, lackwits, slow, and other such terms (yes people, that is where the word idiot comes from, it actually meant mentally retarded at some point in history).
tl;dr some words aren't bad, they are only bad because you percieve them as bad. It's not up to me to make you happy, i have enough damn problems. This being said, i generally steer away from faggot because i dont have a use for it. Instead of calling someone a faggot, normally i just call them a dick.
I do agree with you and see where you are coming from. IRL I have made a great effort to stop using words like gay and fag as insults but when I get home onto my computer and some douche starts pissing me off I don't try to restrain myself from calling him/her a fag. I think it would be easier if gay people realised that 99% of the time when people call them a fag it is not based on their sexual orientation, usually in games people do not know their opponents sexual orientation and understood that the vast majority of the starcraft community would not cal a gay person a fag if the gay person revealed that they were gay..they say it assuming the person it is directed towards is straight and (I know its bad) that they will get offended by this. Usually if I am called a fag in game I reply with "If I was would that be a problem"? I think if those people out there who are called fags in game confronted (via typing in game, not physically) those who accused them of being so, then the accusation would occur less and less. This is a problem and you have renewed my desire to stop contributing to it, thank you for that, gl to all who are with me in this.
On October 28 2011 10:56 R1CH wrote: I'm pretty sure it's not intentional, no one sets out to "gay bash" when they throw around these words. It sucks that it happens and yes it's not a very mature way of expressing yourself, but with the Internet and anonymity people don't really take other peoples feelings into account as nearly as much as they should.
I do take offense to the argument that people are allowing themselves to be offended by it though. I imagine the majority of people playing SC2 are straight caucasian males who generally aren't classified as a minority and don't have any particularly hateful words directed towards them. Without being in a minority and knowing first hand what effect a word can have, I don't think you have a place to tell someone whether they should or shouldn't be offended by it.
why do you need to be the minority to be the 'victim' of hateful words? im a young white male, but im also short. ive had people take the piss out of me all my life for it. i dont take any special offence to height jokes or jibes than i do any other kind of rude language. i dont feel offended when the word short is used in a normal sentence or when its used to describe someone, even when that description is rude too them.
The problem isn't with the word "gay", it's with the context it is used in. I have yet to meet a homosexual that had a problem being called gay.
The problem arises with using "gay" as an insult. This implies that being gay is something that you should be ashamed of, that it is a bad thing. This is where the homophobia arises, not simply in the use of the term.
maybe being gay is different, being black is different. but for me there are 100s of things for people to be the minority of. being male is a minority, being short being fat. and yet there seems to be this spectrum of which is more serious.
people should stop trying to argue that their minority is more important or needs defending, and argue that all rude things are bad, seperating yourself from the crowd by being a supporter of gay rights or whatever just comes across (to me) as a self serving attitude, people should campaign for human rights, not just the rights of people like them.
And saying that being a supporter of gay rights is self serving is wrong for two reasons.
Firstly, its not just gay people that are in support of it, and secondly, that's like saying that the whole civil rights movement was just self serving. And even if it is "self-serving", why is this a bad thing?
because it sounds like its being done for the wrong reasons. you arent saying gay bashing is wrong, you are saying bashing me is wrong, fuck the other guy.
like i said in my post. ive put up with short being used as a describing word and as an insult too. i didnt choose to be short, most people arent short. people use swear words in many situations, the primary examples seem to be the school yard and over the internet. admittedly i dont see anyone making short jokes over the internet, but i can relate to the school yard example and imo thats enough.
the short jokes never bothered me, not once. maybe im just dead inside but they really didnt. every kid develops a thick skin in school to verbal abuse, thats just how it is. im not saying its good or right or anything like that, its just how it is. whether you are short, fat, black, gay, tall, white, stupid, ginger. kids will find something, anything, no matter how rediculous and take the piss out of you. why is gay different or special?
Midget pride, my brother from another mother. Midget pride, yo.
On October 28 2011 10:56 R1CH wrote: I'm pretty sure it's not intentional, no one sets out to "gay bash" when they throw around these words. It sucks that it happens and yes it's not a very mature way of expressing yourself, but with the Internet and anonymity people don't really take other peoples feelings into account as nearly as much as they should.
I do take offense to the argument that people are allowing themselves to be offended by it though. I imagine the majority of people playing SC2 are straight caucasian males who generally aren't classified as a minority and don't have any particularly hateful words directed towards them. Without being in a minority and knowing first hand what effect a word can have, I don't think you have a place to tell someone whether they should or shouldn't be offended by it.
why do you need to be the minority to be the 'victim' of hateful words? im a young white male, but im also short. ive had people take the piss out of me all my life for it. i dont take any special offence to height jokes or jibes than i do any other kind of rude language. i dont feel offended when the word short is used in a normal sentence or when its used to describe someone, even when that description is rude too them.
The problem isn't with the word "gay", it's with the context it is used in. I have yet to meet a homosexual that had a problem being called gay.
The problem arises with using "gay" as an insult. This implies that being gay is something that you should be ashamed of, that it is a bad thing. This is where the homophobia arises, not simply in the use of the term.
maybe being gay is different, being black is different. but for me there are 100s of things for people to be the minority of. being male is a minority, being short being fat. and yet there seems to be this spectrum of which is more serious.
people should stop trying to argue that their minority is more important or needs defending, and argue that all rude things are bad, seperating yourself from the crowd by being a supporter of gay rights or whatever just comes across (to me) as a self serving attitude, people should campaign for human rights, not just the rights of people like them.
And saying that being a supporter of gay rights is self serving is wrong for two reasons.
Firstly, its not just gay people that are in support of it, and secondly, that's like saying that the whole civil rights movement was just self serving. And even if it is "self-serving", why is this a bad thing?
because it sounds like its being done for the wrong reasons. you arent saying gay bashing is wrong, you are saying bashing me is wrong, fuck the other guy.
like i said in my post. ive put up with short being used as a describing word and as an insult too. i didnt choose to be short, most people arent short. people use swear words in many situations, the primary examples seem to be the school yard and over the internet. admittedly i dont see anyone making short jokes over the internet, but i can relate to the school yard example and imo thats enough.
the short jokes never bothered me, not once. maybe im just dead inside but they really didnt. every kid develops a thick skin in school to verbal abuse, thats just how it is. im not saying its good or right or anything like that, its just how it is. whether you are short, fat, black, gay, tall, white, stupid, ginger. kids will find something, anything, no matter how rediculous and take the piss out of you. why is gay different or special?
Midget pride, my brother from another mother. Midget pride, yo.
BM is an attempt by a player, either out of frustration at his own loss/shortcomings or to gain an advantage, to elicit an emotional response from the other player through abusive language.
This can take the form of mocking and/or dismissal of the gameplay of the participants, eg "2 ez" or "gj abusing op units, play a real game next time", or by attempting to make the insult personal through use of various epithets. This is actually quite difficult to do, since a BMer has no idea about what specific race/body type/gender person they are playing, but this difficulty can be somewhat offset by employing the shotgun method (listing as many triggers as possible hoping that at least one will cause the desired effect):
"terrible game, i hope your father gets aids, your mother gets kreutzfeld-jakob disease and your twin brother burns to death in a car accident you gay fat virgin mormon chinese nigger"
As many on this thread have said, if OP and other homosexual members of the gaming community find the purile nonsense and dross that spews forth from your average ladder player unsuitable, then they should avoid laddering and play customs with friends who are better mannered.
sounds seriously like a whine to me, the same could be said for racism/sexism etc etc etc. I believe that your merits make people respect you, and tbh you shouldnt really care if some random internet troll disrespects you anyway.
tldr: deal with it, or avoid places/situations where homosexuals get flamed
On October 28 2011 07:54 Djabanete wrote: @hoby2000: And what's your intention behind the word "gay" then? Can you define it?
As I explained in a post somewhere on this page, to me it's basically a synthesis of unfortunate stereotypes and prejudices about gay men, but applied to things other than men. Cheapness, inferior quality, gaudiness, showiness, effeminacy, display of emotion, etc.
I think that the word's pejorative use smacks of prejudice even if you're not using to stir up prejudice, or even thinking about it. But not thinking about something doesn't make it go away.
Edit: @ Probe1: For what it's worth, I think "raped" is in pretty bad taste as well. And I don't bother crusading about it either; I don't recall talking about this before this thread, but it's what the thread is about, so it's what I think.
My intention is certainly not to offend. Homosexuals have as much as a right for using the word "gay" for homosexual as I do for using "gay" for stupid. The only reason people focus on the idea that it's wrong to use the word "gay" in place for stupid or lame is because they believe that homosexuals own the word - but they don't.
No. Nobody thinks homosexuals own the word "gay." However, the word does indeed mean "homosexual," and the pejorative meaning has come about simply as an extension of this primary meaning.
No one owns a word. The word "gay" meant something completely different before homosexuals started using it to describe themselves. In fact, I believe the only reason they used "gay" in the first place is because of the stereotype of homosexuals always sounding happy.
Fait accomplit. This doesn't mean you get to leverage continuing prejudice to devise a new, pejorative meaning. Why do you think the word "gay" means what you use it to mean, when you use it in a pejorative sense?
Also, you seem to have missed a majority of my reply. It doesn't matter what my intention is, because someone will take offense anyway - therefore meaning the offended create the feeling of being offended, instead of it being created by the offender. Yes, and if you take offense when I insult your mother, it's really you just creating the feeling of being offended --- but somehow it's still not acceptable to insult someone's mother.
I'm asking you. Define "gay" as you want to use it. Now think a moment about where the meaning comes from. Now think a moment about whether homophobic prejudice isn't still alive and strong (hint: it is). Now think whether it's a good thing or a bad thing to blithely reinforce that prejudice.
nobody likes to be insulted and if everyone who ever got insulted in any manner would actually make his community no longer use the insult in question, then very suddenly there wont be any insults left to be used by this community. For me, as a part of the community, this would ultimately mean that i cant even swear at a damn cheeser properly because it would be inconsiderate of the cheesers mental situation which i dont know anything about anyway.
so no. sorry i like insulting people when they deserve it and i am going to keep doing it in whatever way I think is appropriate.
Edit: also here in germany people dont really use the gay equivalent as much as the english speaking community. Simply because the word has more then double the letters to it. I think the easy way to use it is another reason why "gay" as a word is being used rather frequently as an insult. It is much harder to do nice and eloquent bashing then just throwing out the F bomb coupled with a little homophobia.
You should just live with the fact that words like "gay" and "faggot" have gone past meaning "homosexual", especially on the internet where people aren't as afraid to be politically incorrect. Using those words in an offensive setting is not gay bashing. Generally, when used, they're just meant as an insult, similar to "retard" which is not meant to offend people with actual handicaps, it just changed meaning to an insult. Languages evolve. Get over it.
As for getting called "gay" after you make a heart towards a guy, that isn't gay bashing, that's you being feminine as a male and getting bashed for it and that happens to both straight and gay people. If I give a random male a heart (even as a straight person, probably especially as a straight person) he's going to call me gay too. This will happen everywhere by the way, and if you take that as offensive, you're not going to get by a day in your life not being offended if you keep on acting overly feminine as male. The issue here isn't that gays aren't accepted in society, it's that males are raised to be closed off about their feelings where acting feminine in any way is considered to be unmanly.
On October 29 2011 03:47 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: You should just live with the fact that words like "gay" and "faggot" have gone past meaning "homosexual", especially on the internet where people aren't as afraid to be politically incorrect. Using those words in an offensive setting is not gay bashing. Generally, when used, they're just meant as an insult, similar to "retard" which is not meant to offend people with actual handicaps, it just changed meaning to an insult. Languages evolve. Get over it.
This is not true because it is offensive. You cannot say Nigger or Slut for the same reasons. Its politically incorrect and offensive. I know when you rage your not questioning your opponents sexuality your just being a bigot.
This is not true because it is offensive. You cannot say Nigger or Slut for the same reasons. Its politically incorrect and offensive. I know when you rage your not questioning your opponents sexuality your just being a bigot.
Both terrible examples. Nigger hasn't evolved past its meaning of a degrading insult towards black people, so that one doesn't fit the ticket. Same with slut. You don't seem to grasp the concept of an evolving language.
As for actual examples, how about saying "god damnit", isn't that offensive to religious people? What about "jesus christ"? Yet we still use them, because they evolved past their actual meanings and now no longer mean what they used to mean. Languages evolve. Get over it.
And I don't rage, I'm not defending myself. I just think it's ridiculous to get offended to the extend of writing an essay by someone just using those words when they are clearly not actually gay bashing.
I wonder if most people know where the word "faggot" originates from? I was watching the show "Louis" and his gay comedian friend was explaining how during the witch hunts, they would not only hunt for women but also male homosexuals. Faggot meant like burning ember or kindle, I believe. So that's where "flaming faggot" would come from. I don't know if that is accurate, but I've stopped using that word after that episode.
If you honestly believe anyone anywhere that says faggot, fag, gay, homo, or any other homophobic term, is actually trying to insult you, bring it to their attention that you are offended by such terms since you are of the aforementioned sexual orientation.
However, in most cases, the person saying such term is not trying to insult. It's just another swear word to them.
What if someone addicted to sex got offended when someone said fuck -- because they thought the person saying it was insulting the sex act. Like... really? It's just another word the angry person uses.
What about when we were kids.... everything was stupid, dumb, retarded, idiot, moron, etc... Yes, those ARE harmful to the mentally and physically challenged, yet it's not as big in the news (and by news, I'm referring to the amount of TL threads I see) as the homophobic/homosexual threads complaining about the community.
Similar to "your mom" jokes. I have a friend of mine who's mom is very close to him, and he doesn't like it when we spout out your mom jokes... Even though he knows we're kidding, he's told us he doesn't like it.
TL;DR: They're not insulting you. Bring it to their attention you don't like the words, and hope you don't hear them. No those words do not mean ANYTHING to them. Do not act like they do. Those words most likely never will mean anything to them.
On October 29 2011 01:05 bonifaceviii wrote: BM is an attempt by a player, either out of frustration at his own loss/shortcomings or to gain an advantage, to elicit an emotional response from the other player through abusive language.
This can take the form of mocking and/or dismissal of the gameplay of the participants, eg "2 ez" or "gj abusing op units, play a real game next time", or by attempting to make the insult personal through use of various epithets. This is actually quite difficult to do, since a BMer has no idea about what specific race/body type/gender person they are playing, but this difficulty can be somewhat offset by employing the shotgun method (listing as many triggers as possible hoping that at least one will cause the desired effect):
"terrible game, i hope your father gets aids, your mother gets kreutzfeld-jakob disease and your twin brother burns to death in a car accident you gay fat virgin mormon chinese nigger"
Moral of the thread: BM is bad, don't do it.
Though, most insulters wouldn't think to use something as obscure/long as kreutzfeld-jakobs.
I've found that the most common BM usually refers to the winner's mother, but that's just me.
My best friend is gay. I usually tell him, that hes such a fucking fag. Then he smiles and says, well you're so disgustingly straight. Then we get along just fine and drink beer and dont talk about penises.
Reasons I'm "bumping" this thread... As an avid lurker, stream watcher, and overall awful ladder player, I am frequently annoyed by the constant use of "gay" and "faggot" . It is ubiquitous. I feel it is an ongoing trend and that I have a perspective not yet mentioned in this thread (to which I'll post now).
As Chill said, at heart, the issue has been talked about in two camps, one is those that do not have malicious intent and just want to use a word they do not see as injurious, and those that say it should not be said regardless of intent. I am with the latter camp.
I believe that bashing gay people or using the word "gay" and "faggot" perjoratively, regardless of intent, harms gay people, youth, and males alike. I even see a link to how psychological harm for women.
The reason lies with social acceptance. We all want to be accepted, and we all want to be social. It is generally understood that isolation and ostricization lead to mental breakdown, to constant anxiety, and to other pathologies of the mind.
For the gay man, he was once a child, a prepubescent teenager, and a young adult. At every stage, if he led a rather typical life, he was told that he was not socially acceptable and that he never would be. This idea was reinforced over and over to the point of frequently (in my lay opinion) creating a worldview that divided him from others, reduced him to something less valuable, caused him to walk around fatalistic and ashamed, etc. There are numerous wonderful examples in literature of this phenomenon like "Giovanni's Room" by James Baldwin, a gay black writer who also understood how racial struggle related (and didn't relate) to sexuality.
As a child I remember watching a documentary on the untouchable caste of India. Even after being freed and told they were equal, they still maintained patterns of subservience, mental weakness, a dominated spirit... Much can be said of those slaves that were emancipated after the civil war, blacks during apartheid, or blacks during the Jim Crow era (and even after). It takes a rare individual to maintain a strong sense of spirit and self-confidence in the face of cultural onslaught.
To the soldier that said PTSD was causing him to consider taking his life, I say that your mental anguish is only different in cause, not strength. You might not understand that because you have suffered in different circumstances, but the truth is that mental pain can be unbearable and we all know this. Moreover, I assert that lack of social acceptance, and frequent repetition of this idea to an individual, causes such anguish.
We are primed to seek out love and affection from others and gay people are particularly vulnerable because we're likely to be denied such love and affection from our family members, our friends, etc. Gay people do not have the luxury of immediately identifying other gay people, so its easy to feel completely alone in the very beginning. It is easy to feel imprisoned.
Remember, teenagers play this game, come to these boards, and watch Destiny's stream. Do we really expect them to overcome the massive amount of stimuli reinforcing the idea that being gay is wrong, just at the time they're struggling to come to terms with their own identity? How does that foster a worldview that leads to self-confidence? People are not born confident and then choose to be offended. Offense is often too weak a word anyway. It is pain, and a recall of the horror of feeling scared of your own family, your classmates, your friends, your teachers, people you should expect to love you. It is a reinforcement of the idea that you are not worth anything to anyone, that you will not find love, you will not have a good career, you do not measure up to the expectations of your gender (or so they say!)...
Intent does not matter, that requires a level of awareness and sophisticated observation of other's behavior and mental state to trully appreciate amongst all the people who are genuinely interested in bashing gay people. They're everywhere. The United States is about 50-50 on gay marriage right now, a lot of people everywhere are definitely "anti-gay" and the effect is extremely toxic to the psyche of gay people.
Use of these words reinforces those opinions amongst those who are anti-gay, regardless of intent. A person who is against gay people hearing other people say "gay" and "faggot" doesn't have to understand the intent to have his idea of gay is wrong reinforced.
Moreover, I find it constricting as a male how often I'm told, via commercials, via other people bashing gay people, via rediculous expectations of gender, how awful it is for me to express affection to another male. Not every society or every community is like this. I should state I live in the southern United States. But, it leads me to believe that for all males, this notion of bashing gays and of reinforcing those notions with using the word "gay" and "faggot" and "suck a dick", etc, tends to separate us from other males and make it more difficult to achieve pair bonds that could really matter.
I believe it also makes women feel bad for being female. And if fellatio is so denigrating, then if you are a straight male, you might be hurt by this because your female companion does not wish to denigrate herself by performing fellatio for you. Or maybe, she even feels shame for being penetrated.
As to the arguments that this is the internet and why does it matter? Some pro on some stream might read this (I AM LOOKING AT YOU DESTINY) and think, you know what, I do have little kids and even adults for whom great mental pain and many horrible memories are attached to these words and maybe I should stop using these words. Others might read this and become a tiny step closer to being for gay marriage. This community takes itself seriously, is heavily moderated for a reason, and tends slowly towards a better place to share ideas and resonate around common interests. This thread may do a bit towards advancing that goal, and so yes, lets take it seriously.
Finally, for those who believe that we should lend a helping hand to those that are struggling, I hope we can see that those who grow up in self-shame and a sense of social isolation are in need of a bit of assistance. It is hard for the gay rights movement to make progress because people typically respect strength, and its hard to have strength after the formative years of a gay youth that could be qualitatively described as an emotional beatdown of the individual. While it is important to become less a victim, it is also important to acknowledge that victimization occured, and if you're strong and self-confident, consider that the change asked of you (stop reinforcing this idea) is so much less than the change asked of these victims (change your worldview to a positive, self-actualized, self-confident human).
If you read my whole post, I appreciate it, thank you, Agitprop
i am so sick of seeing this argument on pretty much every site i go to. the use of the words "faggot" or "gay" is ONLY harmful if YOU make it out to be harmful. its a word, why let a word get to you so badly? especialy when 90% of the time the use of those 2 words has nothing to do with sexuality?
if you let those words anger you then guess what? you are satsifying the person who insulted you. that is EXACTLY what they want from you. when someone insults you they WANT to hurt you, they WANT to make u cry and they WANT to make you feel bad. that is what a fucking insult is.... when u call someone a "bitch" it is no diffrent from calling them a "faggot". when u call someone a "whore" it is no diffrent from calling him gay. even something as small as saying "your a idiot" or "your a moron" has the same exact goal which is to make u feel bad about who you are.
so the best thing to do is LET IT THE FUCK GO. seriously, stop letting them get to you or the insulters will only insult you more. why? because they now know what buttons to push to make u mad. dont let them get to you and just ignore it... there is no reason to bump this thread and no reason for it to have existed in the first place.
there will always be someone that insults you because they dont feel good about there own self. because of that they will personally attack you to make you feel as bad as they are feeling, but if you ignore that and dont let it bother you then the insultor has failed at his goal. the person that insulted you will feel even worse about himself because he could not make you feel as bad as he is feeling. you are still happy and he is still in a bad mood, u have won. so why give them what they want? by making threads like these u are publically saying "HERE IS MY BUTTON! PLEASE PUSH IT SO U CAN MAKE ME FEEL BAD!"
On February 28 2012 18:38 ThatGuy89 wrote: funny. i played a guy on ladder yesterday and he started by saying 'gl hf ♥'
now that u mention it, same thing happened to me a few days ago. guy tried to cheese and clamed he was a girl. idk if it really was a girl or not, but im sure its some new cheesing strat.
It isn't seen as much ingame, but there's plenty of Christian bashing as well going on. Plenty of ignorant posts in general chat about it, many of which are extremely offensive. I've just ignored them, because people won't change over the internet while their identity is protected. Best advice I can give to the gay community would be to get used to it and ignore it. It sucks, but the average user isn't able to convince a much larger community what they are doing is wrong when there is no consequences involved.
Most people use the word "gay" the same way most people use "nigga". The only people that still get mad over people that aren't black using the word "nigga" are what most of us black people call "ignorant".
Nigga is a common term that is used in the same context of "dude", "bro", "homie", etc...
Nowadays when people use the word gay, its not being used in a homophobic sense. Its just being used to describe something that is well... negative. Like whenever I get killed in a ridiculous way in fps game like Gears of War, the first thing I say when transitioning to the next round is "nigga that was gay as fuck" (referring to the 2 piece if anybody is familiar with that. or even active downs). I dont use it in a way that is supposed to be seen as negative to gay people, I just use it to describe something stupid.
Call me ignorant. Call me Homophobic. Call me an asshole. But never say I hate gay people because my older brother is actually gay and he doesn't find the word "gay", when being used to describe stupid shit, very hurtful at all. Hell, he says it all the time.
Not really sure what to say about the people that committed suicide but this quote is directly from my brother:
"If they had to kill their selves over the word "gay" being used to much, then maybe they should've just became straight."
If you cant take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Gay people are slowly becoming more and more accepted around the world, but there are still people who hate gay people... the same exact thing can be said for black people, white people, disabled people, etc... Hell, people just hate people in general. Why do you think wars happen?
Hate is always going to be around, but if you are constantly looking for the negatives in the positive (positive is being alive), then you won't experience that positive thing in a positive way for long because you are forcing your view to be negative of it.
Personally, i'm glad to see this thread bumped. I've been shocked by how much I see people casually using words like Fag / Faggot since I got into Sc2 ; especially when those using it appear often to have some semblance of intelligence. To claim that the world has moved on and that words evolve misses both the importance of historical context in language and the implication, by use in an insulting context, that there is somehow something negative about being gay.
I asked my Gay half brother about it, thinking I was just behind the times - he assured me that hearing people use these words hurts just as much as it ever did. It's sad. Especially sad when popular figures in the community say it so often - influencing those who look up to them and reinforcing the idea that to be gay is in some way negative. Destiny, to use an earlier posters example, seems like a fairly interesting, bordering on likeable, cerebral chap - seems he enjoys philosophy and deep thought; yet Faggot appears to be his 'go to' insult. He's in the majority from what I can tell. It's saddening and to me, slightly suprising.
To those who say we can't, as individuals, make a difference by refusing to use this implicitly homophobic language, I say rubbish! I run a community of 1500 gamers - all of whom 'get' the poison of the term. Manlove abounds in our community - whether you are gay or straight, with a few younger members even feeling safe enough there to 'come out' to us before they do to their real life friends. I should point out that we're just a gaming community - probably 95% of us are straight - but in my view It's important that we do our bit to find other, less demographic specific 'insults', if we want to hurl insults at all. You can claim you're not being homophobic all you like - but the fact remains that gay members of our communities have often had tough times dealing with much prejudice and whilst they soon learn to develop thick skins, we're all people brought together by a common interest - gaming - and personally, I want gaming to be as inclusive as possible. Frankly, I couldn't give a damn what consenting adults get up to - whatever their orientation - and i'm pretty sure the same is true of many who casually throw sex bias insults around. If we don't voice our concerns about this, there is very little hope of it changing.
Hmm seems I missed this thread the same time through. A quick piece of input though, personally I don't want to be indistinguishable, in language or any other way, from a homophobe, so I don't use the word gay as an insult. Surprised that view isn't more common.
On February 28 2012 18:21 Ballistixz wrote: i am so sick of seeing this argument on pretty much every site i go to. the use of the words "faggot" or "gay" is ONLY harmful if YOU make it out to be harmful. its a word, why let a word get to you so badly? especialy when 90% of the time the use of those 2 words has nothing to do with sexuality?
if you let those words anger you then guess what? you are satsifying the person who insulted you. that is EXACTLY what they want from you. when someone insults you they WANT to hurt you, they WANT to make u cry and they WANT to make you feel bad. that is what a fucking insult is.... when u call someone a "bitch" it is no diffrent from calling them a "faggot". when u call someone a "whore" it is no diffrent from calling him gay. even something as small as saying "your a idiot" or "your a moron" has the same exact goal which is to make u feel bad about who you are.
so the best thing to do is LET IT THE FUCK GO. seriously, stop letting them get to you or the insulters will only insult you more. why? because they now know what buttons to push to make u mad. dont let them get to you and just ignore it... there is no reason to bump this thread and no reason for it to have existed in the first place.
there will always be someone that insults you because they dont feel good about there own self. because of that they will personally attack you to make you feel as bad as they are feeling, but if you ignore that and dont let it bother you then the insultor has failed at his goal. the person that insulted you will feel even worse about himself because he could not make you feel as bad as he is feeling. you are still happy and he is still in a bad mood, u have won. so why give them what they want? by making threads like these u are publically saying "HERE IS MY BUTTON! PLEASE PUSH IT SO U CAN MAKE ME FEEL BAD!"
just let it go...
I feel like you didn't read my post, but the short answer is, it is not just words. The words reinforce an idea which is grounded with important meaning about social standing, acceptance, and interaction with others. And that translates into real world advantages and disadvantages, and is one of the primary foundations for people's behavior. So, its a lot more than just words.
I also addressed the let it the fuck go argument, citing how oppressed communities responded once the oppression was "lifted". You don't just automatically become a different person with a different worldview. Maybe you didn't pick up on that argument. My point was you don't understand why you can't just "let it go" because you didn't spend your formative years in that manner.
There will always be people who challenge you with insults or otherwise in order to improve social standing or for other complicated reasons, yes. You also have to learn to deal with them, but when you're part of a class so thoroughly, so effectively, marginalized, it is beyond the norm, the typical, the stamina and fortitude of the average human being. Using those words just piles more on top of that.
In Malcolm Gladwell's book, "Outliers" he makes a convincing argument about how people who tend to do well later in life were taught important thinks about themselves and how to modify their world and came from solid backgrounds.
On February 28 2012 18:40 Flondra wrote: It isn't seen as much ingame, but there's plenty of Christian bashing as well going on. Plenty of ignorant posts in general chat about it, many of which are extremely offensive. I've just ignored them, because people won't change over the internet while their identity is protected. Best advice I can give to the gay community would be to get used to it and ignore it. It sucks, but the average user isn't able to convince a much larger community what they are doing is wrong when there is no consequences involved.
I find that fighting back creates change and tends to make you feel better. Everyone acknowledges the importance of Dr King to black civil rights, but would he have been as effective without the show of strength via black power, Malcolm X, W E. DuBois, and other militants?
Also, the internet might be a wretched hive of scum and villainy, but I think there are important parts of high level communication, and TL.net tends to be a more respectable medium where reputation does in fact matter and is in fact built up.
gay was many many years ago... considered a bad thing and thats why "gay" in gamer culture is considered being bad or stupid in regards to a game sittuation. "aw man that updates mad gay" a common phrase in gaming culture.
its insulting to gay people. that being said i call anything i dislike in games gay. i cant help it and i think "gay" doesnt really describe a man who is attracted to another man anymore and you need a dif word.
also no ones gay bashing in sc2, thats the internet... every topic that mentions things like this is tbh more or less adding to "gay bashing" then anything else. i for one never think about a persons sexual pref when gaming, it just isnt on my radar and anyone who DOES have this in the back of there mind is a bigot and who gives a shit what he thinks, hes mentally unsound or else why would he harbor some illogical hate of something we dont fully understand, human attraction.
i think gays girls whatever you wana talk about need to just focus on being people that they are rather then trying to make topics like "the gays of sc2" "the girls of sc2" how about, the people of sc2, we are not any dif and so there isnt a need to bring this to the attention of people who are otherwise ignorant to begin with. i applaud your attempts to open the eyes of some but the ones who you should care about already dont have any issues with gay people or anyone else who is dif from them for that matter
i guess TLDR words are as powerful as the connotations that go with them and to escape this "bigotry" and "racism" we need to stop labeling people based on what they do. emo nerd jock these are less insulting to you but they were at one point the focal point of societal grouping/mocking so once we get past name calling we will be ready to move on. you are not gay, you are a person thats it
"In the latest researches gay people are apparently about four percent of the population [1] That means that in your division about four people are gay, that from the about 250 players in GSL history, about 10 are gay,"
That is an incredibly spurious statment. You are assuming the SC2 community is a representative sample for the world. SC2 is an incredibly niche community, and from the male/female ratio, there is evidence that genetic factors of some form will influence whether you pick up the game. While no one can really demonstrate any causal relationships in these speculative claims, there has to be at least some acknowledgement that in terms of genetically determined personality characteristics, there is some bias in the SC2 community.
Of course, none of this is to defend gay-bashing. It's one of the most backwards things many people do in the modern times. Just trying to keep the discourse at a slightly more reasoned level here.
I DO agree with the OP. calling something gay might not have to do with homosexuals at all, it just discribes something bad or annoying. then again, most people would take offense if I'd use "thats so european/american/religious/atheistic" to discribe something stupid or ignorant (and they'd be right about it) - if everybody does it, it still doesn't justify it, now does it?
thats exactly the point, everybody uses it, and people grow up using it. and exactly this "its not so bad, it doesn't refer to gays anyways"-behaviour is whats actually the most offensive.
I'm gay myself, and I'm using gay/fag as an insult - but I always regret it the next second, and whenever I notice I'm about to say it, I'm rethinking what I'm going to say. not all gays take offense by it, but it still should stop.
You are not very used to the internet. It is full of jerks that it is impossible to get rid of them. People be real dicks online cause they can hide who they really are. You just have to ignore it. There have been more offencive things said than this but I do know where you are coming from.
Hmm I do think this is an issue for some, mostly because they don't understand that although they most probably mean 'dumb' or 'stupid' when they use homophobic slurs, those slurs can be harmful regardless.
I'm not sure if im going to do a good job putting my thoughts across but here goes;
Through out multiple games, communitys etc i've always had my sexuality questioned. Due to a lot of my "mannerisms" can occasionally be concidered stereotypically "gay" but it didnt bother me if people thought i was gay. (Also it ended up being a good way to weed out people who were actually offensive to people that were gay, lesbian etc.)
But the easiest way i found of stopping people using the term "gay" as an insult is to just stop being offended by it. Just like if someone were call me "black". I wouldn't find it offensive, its just incorrect. I've found its the exact same with being called a fag etc. Its not offensive its just incorrect.
Lets apply this to starcraft, if somebody goes around calling people "fags", "gay" or "homos". If that person gets little to no response. That term as an insult loses a large portion of its "power". These people tend to be trying to illicit a response. Trying to make someone angry. Going off on them on why they are wrong why they shouldnt be doing something ends up being a great response.
So if one day "Johnny mc angry pants" goes onto the ladder has 10 games in a row where he starts the game with a "ur a fag" and gets little to no response (or generally a response that has nothing to do with the supposed insult). They become less inclined in the future to use that insult because its not producing the desired effect. So if say the 11th game is vs a teen who is in that tricky period questioning their sexuality "johnny mc angry pants" is less likley to start the game with "ur a fag".
Or thats just how it has worked in the past with me.
Btw i start games with a "GL HF Sir! :D" (occasionally i get corrected and reply with a GL HF Madame! " So i occasionally get the "fag" response too.
I am straight but don't consider be calling gay an insult since I cannot see that a person is better or worse if he prefers a particular gender for having sex. If I would be gay I think I wouldn't consider it an insult either because if I would be gay, it would just describe me how I am.
DongRaeGu likes IU for her looks. Me too. If he would rather like another singer for her looks, so what. If he – or any other person – rather prefer a male singer, so what. Categories (male / female, straight / gay) are not too useful in my opinion. A human being is a human being. It's social class, race, gender, sexual orientation are rather unimportant since "human being" isn't defined by those categories.
The worst part about most of these replies is that they rationalize reasons to maintain personal behavior patterns, without understanding how that applies in the larger cultural context. Take a moment to try to understand why you shouldn't just consider the event in isolation..
On February 28 2012 22:48 TemujinGK wrote: Hmm I do think this is an issue for some, mostly because they don't understand that although they most probably mean 'dumb' or 'stupid' when they use homophobic slurs, those slurs can be harmful regardless.
seems like a more appropriate place to discuss this rather than its own thread though...
That thread is not a catch all for all things gay. That thread is about gay starcraft players, this thread is about using the words "gay" and "faggot". There is a difference.
On February 28 2012 20:52 orangesunglasses wrote: gay was many many years ago... considered a bad thing and thats why "gay" in gamer culture is considered being bad or stupid in regards to a game sittuation. "aw man that updates mad gay" a common phrase in gaming culture.
its insulting to gay people. that being said i call anything i dislike in games gay. i cant help it and i think "gay" doesnt really describe a man who is attracted to another man anymore and you need a dif word.
also no ones gay bashing in sc2, thats the internet... every topic that mentions things like this is tbh more or less adding to "gay bashing" then anything else. i for one never think about a persons sexual pref when gaming, it just isnt on my radar and anyone who DOES have this in the back of there mind is a bigot and who gives a shit what he thinks, hes mentally unsound or else why would he harbor some illogical hate of something we dont fully understand, human attraction.
i think gays girls whatever you wana talk about need to just focus on being people that they are rather then trying to make topics like "the gays of sc2" "the girls of sc2" how about, the people of sc2, we are not any dif and so there isnt a need to bring this to the attention of people who are otherwise ignorant to begin with. i applaud your attempts to open the eyes of some but the ones who you should care about already dont have any issues with gay people or anyone else who is dif from them for that matter
i guess TLDR words are as powerful as the connotations that go with them and to escape this "bigotry" and "racism" we need to stop labeling people based on what they do. emo nerd jock these are less insulting to you but they were at one point the focal point of societal grouping/mocking so once we get past name calling we will be ready to move on. you are not gay, you are a person thats it
Words are far more powerful than connotations. Words indicate ideas. Intent is often irrelevant in communication. You are received a certain way. Behavior patterns, socialization, and how one receives those ideas are grounded in the past and can be extremely powerful. It is easier to drop elective behavior (saying the words) than ideas built into your world view (gays are bad) and we just reinforce the latter when we use the words that way.
I do not believe talking about this does more harm than good. I think not saying anything at all is worse.
It is also impossible to move past labels, we need them to categorize, we need categorization to aid understanding. It is how language functions. I often argue that we should change how we categorize the queer community, but that is going to take quite awhile.
On February 28 2012 23:12 Archybaldie wrote: I'm not sure if im going to do a good job putting my thoughts across but here goes;
Through out multiple games, communitys etc i've always had my sexuality questioned. Due to a lot of my "mannerisms" can occasionally be concidered stereotypically "gay" but it didnt bother me if people thought i was gay. (Also it ended up being a good way to weed out people who were actually offensive to people that were gay, lesbian etc.)
But the easiest way i found of stopping people using the term "gay" as an insult is to just stop being offended by it. Just like if someone were call me "black". I wouldn't find it offensive, its just incorrect. I've found its the exact same with being called a fag etc. Its not offensive its just incorrect.
Lets apply this to starcraft, if somebody goes around calling people "fags", "gay" or "homos". If that person gets little to no response. That term as an insult loses a large portion of its "power". These people tend to be trying to illicit a response. Trying to make someone angry. Going off on them on why they are wrong why they shouldnt be doing something ends up being a great response.
So if one day "Johnny mc angry pants" goes onto the ladder has 10 games in a row where he starts the game with a "ur a fag" and gets little to no response (or generally a response that has nothing to do with the supposed insult). They become less inclined in the future to use that insult because its not producing the desired effect. So if say the 11th game is vs a teen who is in that tricky period questioning their sexuality "johnny mc angry pants" is less likley to start the game with "ur a fag".
Or thats just how it has worked in the past with me.
Btw i start games with a "GL HF Sir! :D" (occasionally i get corrected and reply with a GL HF Madame! " So i occasionally get the "fag" response too.
When your mom told you to stop being offended by a handful of kids calling you names, she was arming you well against them. When the gay kid's mom, father, sisters, brothers, grandparents, etc threw him-her out, disowned him-her, fought incessently with him-her, told him-her they were going to hell, send him-her to ex-gay camp, etc.. When the principal didn't listen because some other dude bashed the gay kid's nuts in for being gay, or sexually harassed him, or calls him a queer every day, when the gay kid lives in constant humiliation, when you spend your whole formative years feeling like a spy in your own life, an interloper, then its a little different. You can't just flip into "I won't be offended by that" mode. You try, it takes effort, you heal slowly over the years, but the original damage is there.
In the meantime, using the words this way encourages others who use the words this way to continue to hurt children and teenagers, and you yourself look indistinguishable from them, because perceiving intent is difficult. Do you really want to be that person?
I can't really empathize for what it feels like to be gay - I've had some long talks with myself and I can't really see down that road. However, given that three years ago I was openly homophobic and now I'm WAY more accepting. However, I'm looking at this:
IDK if someone brought this up already but there was a South Park episode on the word "fag", how gays get angry that the word is being misused and in the end the dictionary meaning of the word gets changed to "a person who acts like a douche". The point of this, to quote Wikipedia, is:
"The F Word" advocates a philosophy that language is malleable and ever-changing, and that the idea of taboo words are only assigned their stigma because society allows them to become so. The word "fag" is used casually and extremely frequently by the characters throughout the episodes, and Comedy Central agreed not to censor the word. The characters use the word "fag" very frequently throughout the episode as an attempt to reclaim and disempower the word, so it will no longer be offensive to the gay community.
I mean, it's an insult, but it's only an insult against the gay community because we said it is.
Example - gay hasn't actually meant happy for a loooong time. Before the 1960's, a "gay" man was a straight man who had lots of sex. "Gay lady" was 19th-century slang for a prostitute, etc.
During the 1960's however, the gay (as in homosexual) community started using the word to describe homosexuality, I forget if it was as sarcasm or hiding themselves, but they did it nonetheless. And 50 years later here we are.
It'll be replaced by another word, but on the plus side it will once again be clear whether someone is calling someone a homosexual or an asshole.
On February 28 2012 18:21 Ballistixz wrote: i am so sick of seeing this argument on pretty much every site i go to. the use of the words "faggot" or "gay" is ONLY harmful if YOU make it out to be harmful. its a word, why let a word get to you so badly? especialy when 90% of the time the use of those 2 words has nothing to do with sexuality?
if you let those words anger you then guess what? you are satsifying the person who insulted you. that is EXACTLY what they want from you. when someone insults you they WANT to hurt you, they WANT to make u cry and they WANT to make you feel bad. that is what a fucking insult is.... when u call someone a "bitch" it is no diffrent from calling them a "faggot". when u call someone a "whore" it is no diffrent from calling him gay. even something as small as saying "your a idiot" or "your a moron" has the same exact goal which is to make u feel bad about who you are.
so the best thing to do is LET IT THE FUCK GO. seriously, stop letting them get to you or the insulters will only insult you more. why? because they now know what buttons to push to make u mad. dont let them get to you and just ignore it... there is no reason to bump this thread and no reason for it to have existed in the first place.
there will always be someone that insults you because they dont feel good about there own self. because of that they will personally attack you to make you feel as bad as they are feeling, but if you ignore that and dont let it bother you then the insultor has failed at his goal. the person that insulted you will feel even worse about himself because he could not make you feel as bad as he is feeling. you are still happy and he is still in a bad mood, u have won. so why give them what they want? by making threads like these u are publically saying "HERE IS MY BUTTON! PLEASE PUSH IT SO U CAN MAKE ME FEEL BAD!"
just let it go...
I feel like you didn't read my post, but the short answer is, it is not just words. The words reinforce an idea which is grounded with important meaning about social standing, acceptance, and interaction with others. And that translates into real world advantages and disadvantages, and is one of the primary foundations for people's behavior. So, its a lot more than just words.
I also addressed the let it the fuck go argument, citing how oppressed communities responded once the oppression was "lifted". You don't just automatically become a different person with a different worldview. Maybe you didn't pick up on that argument. My point was you don't understand why you can't just "let it go" because you didn't spend your formative years in that manner.
There will always be people who challenge you with insults or otherwise in order to improve social standing or for other complicated reasons, yes. You also have to learn to deal with them, but when you're part of a class so thoroughly, so effectively, marginalized, it is beyond the norm, the typical, the stamina and fortitude of the average human being. Using those words just piles more on top of that.
In Malcolm Gladwell's book, "Outliers" he makes a convincing argument about how people who tend to do well later in life were taught important thinks about themselves and how to modify their world and came from solid backgrounds.
Agitprop
to be honest no i did not fully read your argument because i really do not care and i was not refering to you directly anyway. ive been called names all of my life, every name in the book even including fag/gay even though i am straight. if you honestly cant let stuff like that go then that is your own problem because the fact of life is you will ALWAYS be called a faggot/gay/whatever and no argument typed up on the internet will stop that. u seriously have to learn to deal with it. a random post on the internet will not change a entire soceity.
i do understand these words may hurt your feelings, but THEY WILL NOT KILL YOU. now i can smell a "well what about the ppl that killed themselves because of the name calling?" argument coming so i will say this before that starts.... the only person that makes the decision to suicide is yourself. my views on suiciding in general is something saved for another thread, but lets just say i do not sypathize at all with someone weak minded enough to off themselves because of a damn 3 letter word.
you can call me cruel/heartless/souless or whatever you want but guess what? i dont care because that is the way i feel about the situation. the way i personally see it is that if you let those words hurt you then you must not be proud of who you are. show some pride and not let it hurt you. a word means only what you make it out to be. fag means ciggaret in another country and gay means to be happy. pick a definition for the word and roll with it.
On February 29 2012 05:07 agitprop wrote: The worst part about most of these replies is that they rationalize reasons to maintain personal behavior patterns, without understanding how that applies in the larger cultural context. Take a moment to try to understand why you shouldn't just consider the event in isolation..
This is an exceedingly important point which all of the people saying "it doesn't matter, it's not even a slur just a word" are missing. The word perpetuates a trend. The trend is a bad thing. Thinking that you can do it because you feel as though your own ideas on it supersede what it(actually) means, that is what everyone else saying it thinks.
And because of this, "fag" has become an acceptable term. Congratulations, you've just introduced a whole new divisive slur to the English language. Good job there.
On February 28 2012 22:30 ODKStevez wrote: You are not very used to the internet. It is full of jerks that it is impossible to get rid of them. People be real dicks online cause they can hide who they really are. You just have to ignore it. There have been more offencive things said than this but I do know where you are coming from.
have you ever considered its less about hiding behind the internet and more about not having to worry about stupid social conventions or worry about awkward meetings afterwards. people are a lot more honest on the internet, now if you get offended by words thats a totally different discussion but i think its unfair to label honesty as being a jerk.
On February 29 2012 05:07 agitprop wrote: The worst part about most of these replies is that they rationalize reasons to maintain personal behavior patterns, without understanding how that applies in the larger cultural context. Take a moment to try to understand why you shouldn't just consider the event in isolation..
This is an exceedingly important point which all of the people saying "it doesn't matter, it's not even a slur just a word" are missing. The word perpetuates a trend. The trend is a bad thing. Thinking that you can do it because you feel as though your own ideas on it supersede what it(actually) means, that is what everyone else saying it thinks.
And because of this, "fag" has become an acceptable term. Congratulations, you've just introduced a whole new divisive slur to the English language. Good job there.
Trends begin, and trends end. It's highly unlikely that 200 years from now a "fag" will still mean "homosexual", just like 200 years before it meant something different (cigarette? elevator? forget which one)
And converesely, if we did away with that word, we'd just get a new slur/actual word which will slowly become the norm in the place of "fag".
I think you're making this out to be more dramatic than it really is.
"Here's the problem, behind your screen, the network, the server, the network again into some other computer in another nation or maybe just across the street there is another person. A person who you just hurt."
- This is just something that I don't buy. Like it or not, trashtalking is a part of the game. When someone is trashtalking you and calling you gay, their goal is most probably to get in your head and get you aggrevated; not to express their hatred against homosexuals. And associating trashtalk from a chat in Starcraft 2 with suicide just seems extremely naive to me.
People who get offended by trashtalk clearly don't realize that trashtalk is just that: trash. Trashtalk over the internet is comparable to jokes. For example: if everyone thought that Ricky Gervais was serious, everyone would hate him. Luckily, people know how to take a joke since it's meant to be funny, just as trashtalk is meant to get you mad and distracted.
AND: In the heat of battle people say all kinds of crazy things.
While you have fun by being polite there are others who have fun by being trolls, now I don't want to bring trolling statistics up but I think thats past the point. Anyways, don't take offense to these trolls. Self respect is the best remedy to any problem
On February 28 2012 22:30 ODKStevez wrote: You are not very used to the internet. It is full of jerks that it is impossible to get rid of them. People be real dicks online cause they can hide who they really are. You just have to ignore it. There have been more offencive things said than this but I do know where you are coming from.
have you ever considered its less about hiding behind the internet and more about not having to worry about stupid social conventions or worry about awkward meetings afterwards. people are a lot more honest on the internet, now if you get offended by words thats a totally different discussion but i think its unfair to label honesty as being a jerk.
This is what we call the "right to be an ass" argument. If "honestly" means acting as these people do, then they are honestly jerks and assholes.
You are what you do, not what you feel. If you say homophobic shit, sling homophobic language everywhere, and fling homophobia at anyone who crosses your path on the Internet, you are homophobic. No matter how much you may think you're not, you are. Whether you like to bury it deep down beneath "stupid social conventions" or let it hang out in real life, you still are what you do.
BTW: those "stupid social conventions" are called "common courtesy." It's called "not being an asshole." It's called "basic respect for the rights of others to not be treated like shit."
Lastly, you are responsible for your words and actions. You do not have the right to be a gaping asshole. At least, not without consequences.
On February 29 2012 05:07 agitprop wrote: The worst part about most of these replies is that they rationalize reasons to maintain personal behavior patterns, without understanding how that applies in the larger cultural context. Take a moment to try to understand why you shouldn't just consider the event in isolation..
This is an exceedingly important point which all of the people saying "it doesn't matter, it's not even a slur just a word" are missing. The word perpetuates a trend. The trend is a bad thing. Thinking that you can do it because you feel as though your own ideas on it supersede what it(actually) means, that is what everyone else saying it thinks.
And because of this, "fag" has become an acceptable term. Congratulations, you've just introduced a whole new divisive slur to the English language. Good job there.
Trends begin, and trends end. It's highly unlikely that 200 years from now a "fag" will still mean "homosexual", just like 200 years before it meant something different (cigarette? elevator? forget which one)
And converesely, if we did away with that word, we'd just get a new slur/actual word which will slowly become the norm in the place of "fag".
This is what we call the "defeatist" argument. It says, "well, people will never change, so just let them have their words. If you take them away, they'll just get new ones."
Um, no.
The way this actually works is quite simple. You change society so that people are much less willing to use the word. Because words help influence language, this emboldens homosexuals and help them become a more mainstream part of society. Then someone develops a new word. However, this word is quickly shouted down by the newly embolden minority (and their new friends) and never catches on.
That's how this actually works. Once you make homosexuals stop feeling like crap for being who they are, they'll be a lot more capable of standing up for themselves when you try to do it again.
This is just something that I don't buy. Like it or not, trashtalking is a part of the game. When someone is trashtalking you and calling you gay, their goal is most probably to get in your head and get you aggrevated; not to express their hatred against homosexuals. And associating trashtalk from a chat in Starcraft 2 with suicide just seems extremely naive to me.
There's a difference between "trashtalking" and "abuse". What you're talking about is the latter, especially since the same thing happens outside of the game.
If you can't see how adding your kind of "trashtalking" on top of the abuse that society piles on might be hurtful, that's just a lack of imagination on your part. It doesn't mean he doesn't have a point.
The OP is a little bit misleading. While the statistics shows a increased likelihood in suicides for young non-heterosexual and/or non-monogamous people, there is no evidence linking these suicides to indirect verbal abuses (listening to people using gay-related insults for insulting non-gay people/thing). While indirect verbal abuses do play a negative role on these kids, it is not a predominant factor. The OP is well-thought out but the integration and acceptation of sexual differences inside our societies is a much broader subject with huge cultural intricacies.
Gay-related insults are common in our day-life and thus common in everything we do online. The problem doesn't come from our community, it comes from our societies. I approve of the initiative but I think it is a waste of energy.
There's really no reason left as to why people should continue calling others gay/fags. We're trying to create a more progressive, open society...so what reason could you possibly have for being *for* the use of slurs that are meant to demean homosexuals? Or to use the term "gay" as a pejorative?
Gay/bisexual/transgendered people obviously have a hard time as it is, and like the OP noted their suicide rates are higher due to all the abuse they have to endure. Do you really want to be the proverbial "straw that broke the camels back"? Do you really want to contribute to that atmosphere of hostility, just because you feel its your right to use such terms in whichever way you please, regardless of how painful it may be for others? Of course you have a right to say things. That doesn't mean you should do it...and these defeatist arguments of "its the internet, get used to it" are sheer nonsense. How can you just say "its bound to happen" and absolve all personal responsibility for *your* actions? What other people do doesn't matter. *You* can make things better regardless of how others choose to behave.
Just talking to the hypothetical pro-slur person here . Now I'm all flustered lol
On February 29 2012 11:12 Perseverance wrote: So would it be close-minded of me to say that gay people can call me straight all they want?
It depends on context of course. I don't think gay people have a problem being referred to as "gay", obviously. Its when tactics or strategies are referred to in that way that the term becomes used as a pejorative, thus insulting the group.
If they used the word straight in the same way, you could rightly be offended. But otherwise the argument is kind of a non-sequitur.
Wasn't there a point in time where being called a geek or a nerd was considered a very offensive term but now people embrace the term and say proudly that they are nerds and it's completely lost it's effect as an insult. I've always sort of felt the harder we try to blacklist words and remove them from our language as offensive the longer they keep their ability to hurt us if we were suddenly all to stop treating terms like fag as a bad/hurtful term then it would lose it's ability as an insult.
On February 28 2012 18:21 Ballistixz wrote: i am so sick of seeing this argument on pretty much every site i go to. the use of the words "faggot" or "gay" is ONLY harmful if YOU make it out to be harmful. its a word, why let a word get to you so badly? especialy when 90% of the time the use of those 2 words has nothing to do with sexuality?
if you let those words anger you then guess what? you are satsifying the person who insulted you. that is EXACTLY what they want from you. when someone insults you they WANT to hurt you, they WANT to make u cry and they WANT to make you feel bad. that is what a fucking insult is.... when u call someone a "bitch" it is no diffrent from calling them a "faggot". when u call someone a "whore" it is no diffrent from calling him gay. even something as small as saying "your a idiot" or "your a moron" has the same exact goal which is to make u feel bad about who you are.
so the best thing to do is LET IT THE FUCK GO. seriously, stop letting them get to you or the insulters will only insult you more. why? because they now know what buttons to push to make u mad. dont let them get to you and just ignore it... there is no reason to bump this thread and no reason for it to have existed in the first place.
there will always be someone that insults you because they dont feel good about there own self. because of that they will personally attack you to make you feel as bad as they are feeling, but if you ignore that and dont let it bother you then the insultor has failed at his goal. the person that insulted you will feel even worse about himself because he could not make you feel as bad as he is feeling. you are still happy and he is still in a bad mood, u have won. so why give them what they want? by making threads like these u are publically saying "HERE IS MY BUTTON! PLEASE PUSH IT SO U CAN MAKE ME FEEL BAD!"
just let it go...
I feel like you didn't read my post, but the short answer is, it is not just words. The words reinforce an idea which is grounded with important meaning about social standing, acceptance, and interaction with others. And that translates into real world advantages and disadvantages, and is one of the primary foundations for people's behavior. So, its a lot more than just words.
I also addressed the let it the fuck go argument, citing how oppressed communities responded once the oppression was "lifted". You don't just automatically become a different person with a different worldview. Maybe you didn't pick up on that argument. My point was you don't understand why you can't just "let it go" because you didn't spend your formative years in that manner.
There will always be people who challenge you with insults or otherwise in order to improve social standing or for other complicated reasons, yes. You also have to learn to deal with them, but when you're part of a class so thoroughly, so effectively, marginalized, it is beyond the norm, the typical, the stamina and fortitude of the average human being. Using those words just piles more on top of that.
In Malcolm Gladwell's book, "Outliers" he makes a convincing argument about how people who tend to do well later in life were taught important thinks about themselves and how to modify their world and came from solid backgrounds.
Agitprop
to be honest no i did not fully read your argument because i really do not care and i was not refering to you directly anyway. ive been called names all of my life, every name in the book even including fag/gay even though i am straight. if you honestly cant let stuff like that go then that is your own problem because the fact of life is you will ALWAYS be called a faggot/gay/whatever and no argument typed up on the internet will stop that. u seriously have to learn to deal with it. a random post on the internet will not change a entire soceity.
i do understand these words may hurt your feelings, but THEY WILL NOT KILL YOU. now i can smell a "well what about the ppl that killed themselves because of the name calling?" argument coming so i will say this before that starts.... the only person that makes the decision to suicide is yourself. my views on suiciding in general is something saved for another thread, but lets just say i do not sypathize at all with someone weak minded enough to off themselves because of a damn 3 letter word.
you can call me cruel/heartless/souless or whatever you want but guess what? i dont care because that is the way i feel about the situation. the way i personally see it is that if you let those words hurt you then you must not be proud of who you are. show some pride and not let it hurt you. a word means only what you make it out to be. fag means ciggaret in another country and gay means to be happy. pick a definition for the word and roll with it.
I just think you don't really know what oppression and fear that absolutely no one loves you feels like to the degree I'm speaking of. So you equate the degree of your experiences with those of others and miss the point entirely.
On February 29 2012 11:28 HiTeK532 wrote: Wasn't there a point in time where being called a geek or a nerd was considered a very offensive term but now people embrace the term and say proudly that they are nerds and it's completely lost it's effect as an insult. I've always sort of felt the harder we try to blacklist words and remove them from our language as offensive the longer they keep their ability to hurt us if we were suddenly all to stop treating terms like fag as a bad/hurtful term then it would lose it's ability as an insult.
I don't want to blacklist the word, I want to ask you to not use it in a derogatory manner. I would argue that nerd and geek (the words) helped support the idea that nerds and geeks were to be admired because we started using the words in a different way in positive or neutral contexts. If gay was only being used in a positive or neutral sense, it would be a different discussion. I'm all for using gay positively. I'm all for embracing negative terms and making them positive.
On February 28 2012 18:38 ThatGuy89 wrote: funny. i played a guy on ladder yesterday and he started by saying 'gl hf ♥'
happened to me too, but that feels really good and manner to me if they do things like this, i don't like ppl who say "FUCK YOU" at the start of the game after i typed "gl hf" (which happened yesterday on ladder)
Society as a whole don't like what they don't understand. This is the pattern that we've seen for centuries throught America's history and every other countries past. People are strayed from not creating their own opinion based on other things such as what religion and family have raised them to believe out right.
My point: Society believes that things that are not around their norm should be seen as akward and it isn't wrong to bash it. I say for all those people who have ever said something harsh to a homosexual male or female to talk someone of different sexuality and let them tell you about who they are. People from different sexual background or who believe in something different aren't that much different from you overall and they deserve the same respect you believe you deserve.
On February 28 2012 18:38 ThatGuy89 wrote: funny. i played a guy on ladder yesterday and he started by saying 'gl hf ♥'
happened to me too, but that feels really good and manner to me if they do things like this, i don't like ppl who say "FUCK YOU" at the start of the game after i typed "gl hf" (which happened yesterday on ladder)
i can honestly say if someone started off a ladder game with FUCK YOU id probably laugh. maybe im just thick skinned but i can honestly say that a person who i will never meet again is not really gonna be able to do anything that offends me. i guess this is why i dont care if people are dicks on the internet, too much time spent on 4chan has desensitized me
On February 29 2012 11:28 HiTeK532 wrote: Wasn't there a point in time where being called a geek or a nerd was considered a very offensive term but now people embrace the term and say proudly that they are nerds and it's completely lost it's effect as an insult. I've always sort of felt the harder we try to blacklist words and remove them from our language as offensive the longer they keep their ability to hurt us if we were suddenly all to stop treating terms like fag as a bad/hurtful term then it would lose it's ability as an insult.
I think people still fundamentally should have a responsibility not to use those terms. The gay community can try to fight against the harassment by reworking the term with a positive spin, but then I don't think its the term that matters as much as the message of "I hate you for what you are" that's behind it. Regardless of how they alter the term, if people continue to use it as a pejorative, or switch to a new pejorative, I think they'd feel just as ostracized. So the solution really lies in the people that they interact with. Of course they can resist it, to a certain extent...but I think the ultimate solution is that people have to stop using these terms, and more broadly drop the attitude that creates them.
I'm pretty sure geek and nerd can be used in negative contexts - and I think in the moment that they're insulted, a person's effort to try to redefine the word in a positive sense isn't going to overcome the feeling of isolation that is associated by how other people use the term.
Faggot has so much more of a negative context than nerd or geek. It's incredibly derogative, and can never not be derogative, unless you're actually talking about a 19th century british cigarette. You don't just go up to your friend and say "Whats up faggot", at least not from where I'm from, and I can't see how anybody would see it differently. Thats so gay is a bit different (and probably considerably less derogatory), but I don't want to get into it.
I'm just not sure if people using words like faggot as an insult has the effect you think it does. When I call you a bitch, I'm not insulting female dogs, I'm insulting you. Ditto for words like cunt, fuck or otherwise. Curse words are just a way of expressing frustration. The actual meaning behind them is secondary. Also, this is the internet. People around here are stupid assholes seeking to make you miserable. If you can't take it, then this isn't the place for you. The internet is not going to change, doesn't know whether or not you're gay and by and large, isn't going to cut much slack for you if you are. Sure, there are many nice people, but there are also many vocal trolls. By the way, I'm not sure if using words like gay as an insult is the problem. I'm pretty sure the problem is that we, as humans, hate people who are different and have not yet had the need to treat homosexuals nicely pounded into our society like we did for people of different genders or colors. Also, quite a few common misconceptions tend to exacerbate the issue.
i see a lot of people in this thread defending their prerogative to be an asshole on the internet.
no one is trying to tell you that you don't have that (dubious) right. but why so many words and posts just to explain how you LOVE being a dick to people, and that the community is always going to be hurtful so it's okay to be a bully and that's just the way it is.
seriously, take some responsibility for your own actions. we must be living in a golden age of nerd privilege if you lot don't know what it feels like to be picked on, bullied, tormented, and mocked. high school anyone? god, for me it goes back as far as i can remember. yeah, i grew a thick skin. but does that mean i enjoy being insulted for my gender, sexual orientation, choice of hobbies, or whatever?
so get off those high horses. words can hurt, and it's not the fault of the person that was hurt -- if you're the one throwing out the insults, you need to recognize that you're having an impact.
On February 28 2012 23:12 Archybaldie wrote: I'm not sure if im going to do a good job putting my thoughts across but here goes;
Through out multiple games, communitys etc i've always had my sexuality questioned. Due to a lot of my "mannerisms" can occasionally be concidered stereotypically "gay" but it didnt bother me if people thought i was gay. (Also it ended up being a good way to weed out people who were actually offensive to people that were gay, lesbian etc.)
But the easiest way i found of stopping people using the term "gay" as an insult is to just stop being offended by it. Just like if someone were call me "black". I wouldn't find it offensive, its just incorrect. I've found its the exact same with being called a fag etc. Its not offensive its just incorrect.
Lets apply this to starcraft, if somebody goes around calling people "fags", "gay" or "homos". If that person gets little to no response. That term as an insult loses a large portion of its "power". These people tend to be trying to illicit a response. Trying to make someone angry. Going off on them on why they are wrong why they shouldnt be doing something ends up being a great response.
So if one day "Johnny mc angry pants" goes onto the ladder has 10 games in a row where he starts the game with a "ur a fag" and gets little to no response (or generally a response that has nothing to do with the supposed insult). They become less inclined in the future to use that insult because its not producing the desired effect. So if say the 11th game is vs a teen who is in that tricky period questioning their sexuality "johnny mc angry pants" is less likley to start the game with "ur a fag".
Or thats just how it has worked in the past with me.
Btw i start games with a "GL HF Sir! :D" (occasionally i get corrected and reply with a GL HF Madame! " So i occasionally get the "fag" response too.
When your mom told you to stop being offended by a handful of kids calling you names, she was arming you well against them. When the gay kid's mom, father, sisters, brothers, grandparents, etc threw him-her out, disowned him-her, fought incessently with him-her, told him-her they were going to hell, send him-her to ex-gay camp, etc.. When the principal didn't listen because some other dude bashed the gay kid's nuts in for being gay, or sexually harassed him, or calls him a queer every day, when the gay kid lives in constant humiliation, when you spend your whole formative years feeling like a spy in your own life, an interloper, then its a little different. You can't just flip into "I won't be offended by that" mode. You try, it takes effort, you heal slowly over the years, but the original damage is there.
In the meantime, using the words this way encourages others who use the words this way to continue to hurt children and teenagers, and you yourself look indistinguishable from them, because perceiving intent is difficult. Do you really want to be that person?
My main point was, as a straight male if i dont take offense to somebody calling me "gay" or a "faggot". Then that person becomes less inclined to use it as an insult. So when they meet somebody who is gay who has been through that experience. I wasn't saying that a gay man should switch into the "i won't be offended by that" mode. I was saying that straight men and older gay men should try to make a point of not being offended by it and not seeing it as an "insult" to be called gay.
Being gay isnt an insult, being called gay isnt an insult.
I most certainly agree with the premise of this post. The gaming community has a lot of great features, but it has never been the most sensitive, and despite what some people think, nothing about that is to our credit, and nothing about that is really excusable. Teenage boys have never been the most sensitive, so it makes sense, but that doesn't make it okay. So I like the attempt to raise awareness, and it's a cause that really needs to happen at some point.
That said, be prepared for a lot of setbacks. People are not generally too eager to change themselves based on something they read in an internet forum, which is in most cases a good policy. In this case, though, change (if any) will be very slow, but good luck. Next time someone uses a derogatory term towards gays, blacks, or women on ladder, I'll call them out for it
gl hf <3 from a stranger on the internet in a competitive game? I'd take that as bm and respond in kind, i'm not surprised you copped a bunch of insults (some of which were homophobic). I admit the community isn't as accepting as it could be but basing your criticism off aggravated responses is hardly fair.
4% of the population is gay? Well, first off, I think you need to specify there. I was under the impression that there was a spectrum, rather than a black and white distinction, since a person can be bi-sexual but favor hetero relationships, or vice versa.
But of course, we should not bash on the homosexuals. But to change something that is unfortunately so ingrained in the gamer mentality is hard.
On February 28 2012 22:30 ODKStevez wrote: You are not very used to the internet. It is full of jerks that it is impossible to get rid of them. People be real dicks online cause they can hide who they really are. You just have to ignore it. There have been more offencive things said than this but I do know where you are coming from.
have you ever considered its less about hiding behind the internet and more about not having to worry about stupid social conventions or worry about awkward meetings afterwards. people are a lot more honest on the internet, now if you get offended by words thats a totally different discussion but i think its unfair to label honesty as being a jerk.
This is what we call the "right to be an ass" argument. If "honestly" means acting as these people do, then they are honestly jerks and assholes.
You are what you do, not what you feel. If you say homophobic shit, sling homophobic language everywhere, and fling homophobia at anyone who crosses your path on the Internet, you are homophobic. No matter how much you may think you're not, you are. Whether you like to bury it deep down beneath "stupid social conventions" or let it hang out in real life, you still are what you do.
BTW: those "stupid social conventions" are called "common courtesy." It's called "not being an asshole." It's called "basic respect for the rights of others to not be treated like shit."
Lastly, you are responsible for your words and actions. You do not have the right to be a gaping asshole. At least, not without consequences.
On February 29 2012 05:07 agitprop wrote: The worst part about most of these replies is that they rationalize reasons to maintain personal behavior patterns, without understanding how that applies in the larger cultural context. Take a moment to try to understand why you shouldn't just consider the event in isolation..
This is an exceedingly important point which all of the people saying "it doesn't matter, it's not even a slur just a word" are missing. The word perpetuates a trend. The trend is a bad thing. Thinking that you can do it because you feel as though your own ideas on it supersede what it(actually) means, that is what everyone else saying it thinks.
And because of this, "fag" has become an acceptable term. Congratulations, you've just introduced a whole new divisive slur to the English language. Good job there.
Trends begin, and trends end. It's highly unlikely that 200 years from now a "fag" will still mean "homosexual", just like 200 years before it meant something different (cigarette? elevator? forget which one)
And converesely, if we did away with that word, we'd just get a new slur/actual word which will slowly become the norm in the place of "fag".
This is what we call the "defeatist" argument. It says, "well, people will never change, so just let them have their words. If you take them away, they'll just get new ones."
Um, no.
The way this actually works is quite simple. You change society so that people are much less willing to use the word. Because words help influence language, this emboldens homosexuals and help them become a more mainstream part of society. Then someone develops a new word. However, this word is quickly shouted down by the newly embolden minority (and their new friends) and never catches on.
That's how this actually works. Once you make homosexuals stop feeling like crap for being who they are, they'll be a lot more capable of standing up for themselves when you try to do it again.
This is just something that I don't buy. Like it or not, trashtalking is a part of the game. When someone is trashtalking you and calling you gay, their goal is most probably to get in your head and get you aggrevated; not to express their hatred against homosexuals. And associating trashtalk from a chat in Starcraft 2 with suicide just seems extremely naive to me.
There's a difference between "trashtalking" and "abuse". What you're talking about is the latter, especially since the same thing happens outside of the game.
If you can't see how adding your kind of "trashtalking" on top of the abuse that society piles on might be hurtful, that's just a lack of imagination on your part. It doesn't mean he doesn't have a point.
It's only "abuse" if you interpret it in the wrong way and take it personal, and I think you'd have to be pretty stupid to take everything that people say on the internet personal. The CHOICE OF WORDS might come across as one thing; while the actual MEANING is a whooooole different story. People need to learn how to differentiate personal attacks from well, bullshit.
On February 29 2012 11:23 Otolia wrote: The OP is a little bit misleading. While the statistics shows a increased likelihood in suicides for young non-heterosexual and/or non-monogamous people, there is no evidence linking these suicides to indirect verbal abuses (listening to people using gay-related insults for insulting non-gay people/thing). While indirect verbal abuses do play a negative role on these kids, it is not a predominant factor. The OP is well-thought out but the integration and acceptation of sexual differences inside our societies is a much broader subject with huge cultural intricacies.
Gay-related insults are common in our day-life and thus common in everything we do online. The problem doesn't come from our community, it comes from our societies. I approve of the initiative but I think it is a waste of energy.
We do not base all of our decisions on being polite on statistical regression. The evidence for the link is not 100%, but it doesn't take a person of unlimited intellect to see how its likely, and that alone suggests that one should curb one's behavior. Plus, the fact that lots of people supply the empirical experience of being pissed off by using these terms negatively is a strong indication that its just not acceptable to some of us.
Who creates the social change if we do not do it? We are a society, our community can foster change within and outside it. The energy we put in here does change minds. People might respond negatively to this thread but then later realize they were being asshats and stop talking that way. Lurkers might decide I and others have a point. Proving that this energy here doesn't have a long term affect for the future would be much harder than proving a link between the negative use of "gay" and gay teen suicides. Discussion is a necessary first step of social change, imo, and trying to squelch it is a tactic endless hordes of partisans have used to preserve the status quo. I'm not happy with the status quo, so speech is, to me, an obvious first step. To date, I have probably changed many minds. My mind has also been changed by others and by and by I also become a, to me, better person.
On February 29 2012 12:13 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I'm just not sure if people using words like faggot as an insult has the effect you think it does. When I call you a bitch, I'm not insulting female dogs, I'm insulting you. Ditto for words like cunt, fuck or otherwise. Curse words are just a way of expressing frustration. The actual meaning behind them is secondary. Also, this is the internet. People around here are stupid assholes seeking to make you miserable. If you can't take it, then this isn't the place for you. The internet is not going to change, doesn't know whether or not you're gay and by and large, isn't going to cut much slack for you if you are. Sure, there are many nice people, but there are also many vocal trolls. By the way, I'm not sure if using words like gay as an insult is the problem. I'm pretty sure the problem is that we, as humans, hate people who are different and have not yet had the need to treat homosexuals nicely pounded into our society like we did for people of different genders or colors. Also, quite a few common misconceptions tend to exacerbate the issue.
Is the evidence of this thread not enough to convince you that it does in fact have an effect more powerful than you think it does? And, how did that pounding occur? Surely it started with words, not fists? Do these words count as pounding?
How about these chances: If you're ANYONE, the chances of you being called "gay" in SC2 (Or any online game, forum, or chat room ever) on a daily basis is roughly 100%
If you're gay the chances of you taking offense to any "gay comment" is: COMPLETELY Up to you.
People use "gay" in various meanings of "stupid" a lot, and I could see that being misconstrued often.
So my question: Why not start a thread about people calling others "Fat Pimply Nerds" or anything similar? This is directly to the point. This one probably hits home with a lot of Blizzard game players, maybe even more than your "Gay Stats." Even the pros can't escape that stereotype. If any were trying to hide they are gay, they could and probably are doing just that, due to the troll-nurturing environment of the internet.
How bout a thread for people being called "Virgins"? Something completely concealable and very unlikely, still very personal. Though, I like to think it's rare this actually upsets someone, but in today's society, if true, they'd probably want to kill themselves. We can leave it to them to make a thread about themselves, though, right? You know you'd laugh.
In response to suicides and real life gay-bashers: The people killing themselves aren't wrong for having these feelings, either, but wrong to end it because of the feelings, themselves. Blaming the gay-bashers is one thing, they are not valuing another persons life, and that's terrible. IMO, suicides are equally to blame for lacking value of their own life. Anyone who kills themself is partial to the whole problem of someone died. This is your true test as an obscure part of society. Survive, not martyr yourself out for a pity party.
Most of the world thinks (knows?) it's not natural. Morals aside, you cannot reproduce human life with homosexual relations.It's as simple as that.
As a human, yourself, born from sexual reproduction, you cannot hold these people as wrong if they feel that way.
It IS definitely wrong to actively be trying to remove homosexual relationships from society forever. The internet does not contribute to this, though!
Furthermore, you can't use adolescent bullying, done in person, and apply into an internet scenario, where no one has any preconceived notions or understandings of one another. We all vary in ages, and all aren't in the most sensitive point of our lives: High-school and College, like the real life stats you presented. (Adolescence (Sexual and mental maturing) lasts from ages 13-20 and in some cases, older.)
This thread will be held ineffective for me. Though, I honestly hold true to the ideal that you can have a relationship with whoever you want!
You will not limit my use of words to convey how I feel about anything or anyone, at any time. Even if it's a terrible choice of words and completely incorrect, or completely correct and makes you want to kill yourself. You're going to get my idea of you. The meaning behind certain words will vary, it's the 21st century. It's up to you to get upset, not care/ignore. It's up to you to determine if I could even have any such knowledge of you and who you are, in the first place.
In the least condescending way possible: Grow a spinal chord and take it like a....Well, take it any way you can get it.
ONE IMPORTANT TRUTH IN YOUR DEFENSE: 48 hours ago I did receive a 24 hour temporary ban, on the North American server, for slandering a player. The email regarding it said I was banned for saying: "Terrans OP, emo f*g" in the context of a friend just losing a game I was obsing. Someone reported it, even though I was saying it to a friend. Blizzard actually did something about it within a matter of hours! That surprised the hell out of me, but I don't think it will stop me from being immature and slandering others the same way.
Threads like this always hit me wrong... I don't know why. The problem with hate speech is the "hate" not the "speech" If you were somehow able to eliminate the words "fag" and "gay" from the vocabulary of every person on the internet, as long as the hate still exists, they will find something else to call you. I feel for you, I really do, and I don't have the answer to your problem, but I don't see what this will accomplish. The problem you describe has 2 causes. One is that the internet is anonymous and without reprecussions and thus people on the internet who don't care about gay people are going to say whatever the fuck they want to, and I bet most of the people that would use the word "fag" or "gay" probably aren't going to care what a gay person has to say about it (especially on the internet). The second cause is that a good part of the world thinks that homosexuality is immoral or evil or wrong and feel no remorse to disrespect gay people. So if a large portion of the world hates gay people (even though few do so openly irl) those that even feel remotely hateful towards gay people will be exteremely hateful on the internet.
Obviously when you have a community like TL you can kinda choose who's in your community (i.e. no gaybashers) and speech is censored heavily in this regard. I don't think that reporting people for hate speech will do anything to curb people's hate, so ultimately I don't think that what the OP suggests is useful. If a sc2 player was openly gay, I think that would be great, but unless it was a player who was already popular, I don't think it would change the mindset of the sc2 community very much.
Words like "gay" and raped have always been around. Look at the Viking invasions of England, people would often yell insults about "I raped your ass last night" or "This guy likes to be a woman."
I am gay myself, but I do not get offended by these insults, I am just a little disappointed at such distasteful insults. Yes, the gaming community is the new war community in terms of insults but we have to be a bit more creative.
But here is a problem with homophobia, the people who just hate gay people no matter what are disappearing. Now we have the people going "I am fine with gay people only if they do not act 'gay'." which frankly disturbs me.
It is okay to be a black man, just get rid of that ebonic accent.
On February 29 2012 14:53 Shiragaku wrote: Words like "gay" and raped have always been around. Look at the Viking invasions of England, people would often yell insults about "I raped your ass last night" or "This guy likes to be a woman."
Just making this clear. Vikings were uneducated, barbarians who murdered and pillaged their entire lives. and at least from what I understand anyways, we don't do that. We shouldn't use that an an excuse to hurl those insults at another, since we are supposed to be civil.
I would not mind if people used those insults, but only if they are a viking from 500-600 years ago, otherwise I don't find it acceptable.
Gay bashing is a clear problem in the gaming circles, and its pretty rough on many who are gay themselves. It may not affect you, but it effects others.
I think we can all learn that being manner is the way to improve our scene's reputation, as already we have a fairly good one too.
In the words of the immortal White-Ra "More GG more skill,"
Being mannered is one thing that I think we all should be, and being able to unite, dispite our differences. Is one thing that makes the sc2 community unique.
We are black, white, gay, asian, tall, short, fat, skinny, american, european, we are everyone. We shouldn't forget that, no matter what. We all share the same passion for sc2, when I look to my right in a sc2 lan, I see another person passionate about sc2, It doesn't matter that I may not be able to speak with him in the same tongue, or be able to ralte to him in any way.
It doesn't matter because we have one thing in common, sc2. And thats all I need to know that that guy/girl is someone I respect.
Sorry for rambling, but you get my point, No hate :D
On February 29 2012 14:30 Kerwin wrote: Threads like this always hit me wrong... I don't know why. The problem with hate speech is the "hate" not the "speech" If you were somehow able to eliminate the words "fag" and "gay" from the vocabulary of every person on the internet, as long as the hate still exists, they will find something else to call you. I feel for you, I really do, and I don't have the answer to your problem, but I don't see what this will accomplish. The problem you describe has 2 causes. One is that the internet is anonymous and without reprecussions and thus people on the internet who don't care about gay people are going to say whatever the fuck they want to, and I bet most of the people that would use the word "fag" or "gay" probably aren't going to care what a gay person has to say about it (especially on the internet). The second cause is that a good part of the world thinks that homosexuality is immoral or evil or wrong and feel no remorse to disrespect gay people. So if a large portion of the world hates gay people (even though few do so openly irl) those that even feel remotely hateful towards gay people will be exteremely hateful on the internet.
Obviously when you have a community like TL you can kinda choose who's in your community (i.e. no gaybashers) and speech is censored heavily in this regard. I don't think that reporting people for hate speech will do anything to curb people's hate, so ultimately I don't think that what the OP suggests is useful. If a sc2 player was openly gay, I think that would be great, but unless it was a player who was already popular, I don't think it would change the mindset of the sc2 community very much.
The problem is the hate, speech fosters it. That is the critical point. Orwell understood this when he was talking about using language to control the proles in 1984. If you eliminate a word, you can't discuss an idea. The converse is, if you use a word in a certain way, you reinforce the idea. The power is up to you.
My point is not to eliminate a word. My point is to stop using a word hatefully. The point I'm trying to accomplish is to stop reinforcing the idea that gay is bad in the minds of two groups of people. Those that are gay themselves, and those that are abusing gay people but are not gay themselves. Oddly, or probably not in the history of human behavior, gays who are taught that gay is bad to an extreme degree tend to abuse gays as well (think Marcus Bachman?). Words really have the power to shape identity, politics, morality, community, behavior, etc. The great orators, politicos, cult leaders, MLK jr, Ghandi, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, nearly every movie, etc, understand this. Change that matters and is "progressive" (ie for the better) really begins with discussion which requires speech and often a change in how we talk and Madison, Jefferson, Franklin, et al understood this, too.
So yes, eliminating hate is the ultimate goal, using speech to ask others to not use speech in a way that is hurting that goal seems to me to be a good idea.
Also, people do not get on the internet, interact with others, log off, and go back to being exactly who they were. The internet may be more untamed and wild, but reputations are built up on various forums and in various communities, and we want to protect them. People are beginning to understand this. And, the internet is also a great tool for putting ideas out there simply because people are more willing to be honest. I would argue that the 8 states and some tens of nations that now allow gay marriage all did so /after/ the internet became ubiquitous for a reason. You see it as an irrelevant medium for discussing ideas? I see it as absolutely essential. Discussions like these, I believe, are the second most powerful political tool for disenfranchised groups after personal relationships in the modern era. (Since civil dissension has lost some of its shock effect).
On February 29 2012 14:11 Brotatoes23 wrote: How about these chances: If you're ANYONE, the chances of you being called "gay" in SC2 (Or any online game, forum, or chat room ever) on a daily basis is roughly 100%
If you're gay the chances of you taking offense to any "gay comment" is: COMPLETELY Up to you.
People use "gay" in various meanings of "stupid" a lot, and I could see that being misconstrued often.
So my question: Why not start a thread about people calling others "Fat Pimply Nerds" or anything similar? This is directly to the point. This one probably hits home with a lot of Blizzard game players, maybe even more than your "Gay Stats." Even the pros can't escape that stereotype. If any were trying to hide they are gay, they could and probably are doing just that, due to the troll-nurturing environment of the internet.
How bout a thread for people being called "Virgins"? Something completely concealable and very unlikely, still very personal. Though, I like to think it's rare this actually upsets someone, but in today's society, if true, they'd probably want to kill themselves. We can leave it to them to make a thread about themselves, though, right? You know you'd laugh.
In response to suicides and real life gay-bashers: The people killing themselves aren't wrong for having these feelings, either, but wrong to end it because of the feelings, themselves. Blaming the gay-bashers is one thing, they are not valuing another persons life, and that's terrible. IMO, suicides are equally to blame for lacking value of their own life. Anyone who kills themself is partial to the whole problem of someone died. This is your true test as an obscure part of society. Survive, not martyr yourself out for a pity party.
Most of the world thinks (knows?) it's not natural. Morals aside, you cannot reproduce human life with homosexual relations.It's as simple as that.
As a human, yourself, born from sexual reproduction, you cannot hold these people as wrong if they feel that way.
It IS definitely wrong to actively be trying to remove homosexual relationships from society forever. The internet does not contribute to this, though!
Furthermore, you can't use adolescent bullying, done in person, and apply into an internet scenario, where no one has any preconceived notions or understandings of one another. We all vary in ages, and all aren't in the most sensitive point of our lives: High-school and College, like the real life stats you presented. (Adolescence (Sexual and mental maturing) lasts from ages 13-20 and in some cases, older.)
This thread will be held ineffective for me. Though, I honestly hold true to the ideal that you can have a relationship with whoever you want!
You will not limit my use of words to convey how I feel about anything or anyone, at any time. Even if it's a terrible choice of words and completely incorrect, or completely correct and makes you want to kill yourself. You're going to get my idea of you. The meaning behind certain words will vary, it's the 21st century. It's up to you to get upset, not care/ignore. It's up to you to determine if I could even have any such knowledge of you and who you are, in the first place.
In the least condescending way possible: Grow a spinal chord and take it like a....Well, take it any way you can get it.
ONE IMPORTANT TRUTH IN YOUR DEFENSE: 48 hours ago I did receive a 24 hour temporary ban, on the North American server, for slandering a player. The email regarding it said I was banned for saying: "Terrans OP, emo f*g" in the context of a friend just losing a game I was obsing. Someone reported it, even though I was saying it to a friend. Blizzard actually did something about it within a matter of hours! That surprised the hell out of me, but I don't think it will stop me from being immature and slandering others the same way.
And your behavior will continue to spread, strengthen, and reinforce the idea that being gay is wrong, and that is completely up to you, as well.
On October 28 2011 04:24 Rekrul wrote: close and ban, retarded op
Absolutely disgusting, you are a sad human being.
And so are the rest of you that are doing some mental gymnastics to try to make it seem like you are being attacked, and are mocking the op because he feels that people do not deserve to have to face prejudice in their daily lives. Think of it this way, how much harm does it do to you to not use homophobic slurs? and how much harm is done to those whom the slurs are used against? The second can have much, much bigger consequences.
And the argument that "this is the internet, get used to it or dont come on in the first place" is a very bad one because being white males (as most of you are) you know nothing of prejudice in the first place, and the internet is tailored to you because you are the dominate force on it.
as i see it, and as other have said it. it's the internet; the land of anonymity. there are ways to filter such language if you need to, but if you honestly can not read into the context of how the word was used and get offended then that is really your own ignorance. even more so in environments where internet "handles" are used.
however this does not mean i condone gay bashing, but lets keep "gay bashing" confined to actually abusing an actual gay person. if it happens to be someone hating on someone they know to be gay then they should burn.
the community, mainly comprised of young males will always be vulgar and i think it is only really important to harshly enforce language in professional settings. i applaud the effort to approach this ever rising agenda, but really...be practical.
During teenage years people get bullied for an extreme variety of traits and reasons. You don't have to be gay to get bullied, you can also be smart, stupid, weird, quiet, loud, odd, foreign, small, gigantic, the list goes on. Are you going to ban all these words from the internet? And then? You will ban these words from books, too?
I think people taking deep offense at random comments and especially the opinion of strangers, as adults, is a much bigger problem than arguing semantics and supposedly trying to change language.
I was bullied hardcore through eight years of grade school because I went from 1st grade to 3rd grade while already starting school a year early. The entire class was picking on me basically non stop. When I look back, I'm absolutely thankful for the experience because it ultimately made me stop being a sissy and stand up for myself. Today, I don't give a flying fuck about what anyone thinks and it has made my life so much better I can't even believe it. Suddenly I don't need to drive a fancy car, or look a certain way, or act a certain way, or suck up to people, because I just don't care. It's awesome.
The world out there is harsh and cold. It's hard for cats and dogs and it's hard for humans, too. Enveloping every "special" person in cotton is not only unrealistic but in fact detrimental to their own personal development.
On March 01 2012 05:26 Kickboxer wrote: During teenage years people get bullied for an extreme variety of traits and reasons. You don't have to be gay to get bullied, you can also be smart, stupid, weird, quiet, loud, odd, foreign, small, gigantic, the list goes on. Are you going to ban all these words from the internet? And then? You will ban these words from books, too?
I think people taking deep offense at random comments and especially the opinion of strangers, as adults, is a much bigger problem than arguing semantics and supposedly trying to change language.
I was bullied hardcore through eight years of grade school because I went from 1st grade to 3rd grade while already starting school a year early. The entire class was picking on me basically non stop. When I look back, I'm absolutely thankful for the experience because it ultimately made me stop being a sissy and stand up for myself. Today, I don't give a flying fuck about what anyone thinks and it has made my life so much better I can't even believe it. Suddenly I don't need to drive a fancy car, or look a certain way, or act a certain way, or suck up to people, because I just don't care. It's awesome.
The world out there is harsh and cold. It's hard for cats and dogs and it's hard for humans, too. Enveloping every "special" person in cotton is not only unrealistic but in fact detrimental to their own personal development.
There are people bullied to an extreme extent that are not gay, and yes I think that is wrong, and yes I would like that to change. Gay people typically have it worse in that they are often abused by their own families and continue to get shortchanged by authorities in their lives all the way to the grave.
If a little teasing makes you more self-confident in the long run, what does a metric ton of bullying do? Destroy your pscyhe. The reason you don't understand that is because you were not subjected to the extreme levels of isolation, fear, self-loathing, humilation, and emotional anguish that some of these kids go through. If you did, you'd understand I'm not suggesting wrapping up all kids in cotton. It is like if I told the soldier suffering from PTSD that he was being a sissy (you're implying all these people who are taking such offense are sissies, btw.)
I have met so many gay kids whose parents disowned them, who became homeless at a young age or were sent to ex-gay camps for months and in some cases years. I would say their experience roughly equates to losing your whole family at once, and most of society understands how disgusting that is. These experiences are not typical high school bullying. The culmination of all these factors together becomes an overwhelming amount of damage to these gay teenagers. As they become adults and try to heal, people still reinforce the idea and make it more difficult. It does destroy lives and I would like that to change.
The thing is is that until something drastic change with the internet you cannot stop people from saying things.
Actually, chats and forums over the internet are like windows to someone's thoughts. See it like that and then ask yourself: "do I really care if someone thinks something in his head ?"
"Yes but internet is not thoughts, it's written". The thing is internet grants anonymity. Why don't you just speak your mind full of hatred in the street ? Because you fear people reactions. The internet almost completely remove this threat creating the opportunity to say those thoughts and therefore I view it as a small window to someone's head.
What can we do ? I don't know specifically, but what I'm sure of is that the only way is to remove such thoughts and this can only happen by curing things at its source.
For school and bullying... this is harsh and a bigger problem than the internet imo.
Just because it's the norm doesn't mean it's right or defendable. I call people 'gay' and a 'faggot' all the time but I don't mean any actual harm against someones sexuality, but if I knew I was hurting them that way I would definitely refrain from using those words. It's like how you can be white and call your white and possibly very close black friends 'nigger' but would you use that word around other black people in person like at a LAN or tournament event? You'd probably get kicked out. So why the double standard with homosexuals? I think it exists because you can't always tell who is gay just by looking at them so you don't know if you're saying something hurtful or not. I don't think the gay bashing will ever go away from video gaming but we should at least man up and admit when we make immature comments that hurt someone whether we mean it to or not and not just excuse ourselves by saying it's simply "part of our culture"
I call my friends faggot or say somethings gay. It's just part of my vocabulary now/ I know gay people have gay cousins friends. Doesn't really bother me and they'll make jokes about like dick or what have you. Some people just need to learn to grow up and understand words are words. If you let them hurt you they will. I was bullied quite harshly for much of my life up until the middle of highschool so it's not like I havent been on both sides. It honestly has made me a bit more defensive when people say things but we all do it now in good fun. You're just going to have to deal with it as it wont stop anytime soon.
On October 28 2011 04:24 Rekrul wrote: close and ban, retarded op
Absolutely disgusting, you are a sad human being.
And so are the rest of you that are doing some mental gymnastics to try to make it seem like you are being attacked, and are mocking the op because he feels that people do not deserve to have to face prejudice in their daily lives. Think of it this way, how much harm does it do to you to not use homophobic slurs? and how much harm is done to those whom the slurs are used against? The second can have much, much bigger consequences.
And the argument that "this is the internet, get used to it or dont come on in the first place" is a very bad one because being white males (as most of you are) you know nothing of prejudice in the first place, and the internet is tailored to you because you are the dominate force on it.
Yea as a white nerdy male i have never faced prejudices in my entire life. /sarcasm
Well i don't really get it. If i get called a nerd (as an insult) be it on the internet or IRL im like "whatever, so what?" If someone throws words like gay as an insult towards you why would you be upset? If THEY see being gay as bad how does that influence you? Why do you value their opinion at all if they are obviously that childish about something not that rare (in todays society).
On March 01 2012 07:29 sofakng wrote: I call my friends faggot or say somethings gay. It's just part of my vocabulary now/ I know gay people have gay cousins friends. Doesn't really bother me and they'll make jokes about like dick or what have you. Some people just need to learn to grow up and understand words are words. If you let them hurt you they will. I was bullied quite harshly for much of my life up until the middle of highschool so it's not like I havent been on both sides. It honestly has made me a bit more defensive when people say things but we all do it now in good fun. You're just going to have to deal with it as it wont stop anytime soon.
I just don't understand this attitude.
What is to stop YOU from not using those words? Just because other people will not take a stand, doesn't mean YOU can't.
Just because this is the internet does not mean we all have to become the lowest common denominator. It's such a very very small thing to change a couple of words so as to not hurt other people.
On March 01 2012 07:29 sofakng wrote: I call my friends faggot or say somethings gay. It's just part of my vocabulary now/ I know gay people have gay cousins friends. Doesn't really bother me and they'll make jokes about like dick or what have you. Some people just need to learn to grow up and understand words are words. If you let them hurt you they will. I was bullied quite harshly for much of my life up until the middle of highschool so it's not like I havent been on both sides. It honestly has made me a bit more defensive when people say things but we all do it now in good fun. You're just going to have to deal with it as it wont stop anytime soon.
I just don't understand this attitude.
What is to stop YOU from not using those words? Just because other people will not take a stand, doesn't mean YOU can't.
Just because this is the internet does not mean we all have to become the lowest common denominator. It's such a very very small thing to change a couple of words so as to not hurt other people.
I really think people over exaggerate the whole thing. Hell I'm bi myself and way more homo then hetero and I still throw faggot/fag/gay around like its common place. Words don't get to me and shouldn't get to anyone. The people that let the words get to them are attention whores and if you ignore them they start to disappear. I honestly can't understand where people come from when they get offended over the modern day usage of the word gay/fag/faggot etc...
On March 01 2012 07:29 sofakng wrote: I call my friends faggot or say somethings gay. It's just part of my vocabulary now/ I know gay people have gay cousins friends. Doesn't really bother me and they'll make jokes about like dick or what have you. Some people just need to learn to grow up and understand words are words. If you let them hurt you they will. I was bullied quite harshly for much of my life up until the middle of highschool so it's not like I havent been on both sides. It honestly has made me a bit more defensive when people say things but we all do it now in good fun. You're just going to have to deal with it as it wont stop anytime soon.
I just don't understand this attitude.
What is to stop YOU from not using those words? Just because other people will not take a stand, doesn't mean YOU can't.
Just because this is the internet does not mean we all have to become the lowest common denominator. It's such a very very small thing to change a couple of words so as to not hurt other people.
I really think people over exaggerate the whole thing. Hell I'm bi myself and way more homo then hetero and I still throw faggot/fag/gay around like its common place. Words don't get to me and shouldn't get to anyone. The people that let the words get to them are attention whores and if you ignore them they start to disappear. I honestly can't understand where people come from when they get offended over the modern day usage of the word gay/fag/faggot etc...
It's about intent. If someone calls you a faggot and specifically targets your homosexuality it's something different from calling someone a faggot because he's being a douche.
On March 01 2012 07:29 sofakng wrote: I call my friends faggot or say somethings gay. It's just part of my vocabulary now/ I know gay people have gay cousins friends. Doesn't really bother me and they'll make jokes about like dick or what have you. Some people just need to learn to grow up and understand words are words. If you let them hurt you they will. I was bullied quite harshly for much of my life up until the middle of highschool so it's not like I havent been on both sides. It honestly has made me a bit more defensive when people say things but we all do it now in good fun. You're just going to have to deal with it as it wont stop anytime soon.
I just don't understand this attitude.
What is to stop YOU from not using those words? Just because other people will not take a stand, doesn't mean YOU can't.
Just because this is the internet does not mean we all have to become the lowest common denominator. It's such a very very small thing to change a couple of words so as to not hurt other people.
I really think people over exaggerate the whole thing. Hell I'm bi myself and way more homo then hetero and I still throw faggot/fag/gay around like its common place. Words don't get to me and shouldn't get to anyone. The people that let the words get to them are attention whores and if you ignore them they start to disappear. I honestly can't understand where people come from when they get offended over the modern day usage of the word gay/fag/faggot etc...
Surely the reverse is true too? If people stop using those words, then the problem goes away. I find the idea that we should just get rid of the people who are offended quite amazing. Are there any other groups of people you would like to see disappear?
For me it shows a distinct lack of intellect for people to say that they are not racist/homophobic/sexist, but continue to vehemently defend their right to use racist/homophobic/sexist language.
Maybe I'm being simplistic, but if you're not racist/homophobic/sexist just don't use the language, if you are, then admit it and stop using straw man arguments.
In the latest researches gay people are apparently about four percent of the population
I would like to point out your research is from 2004. Since then, more research have come out suggesting as many as 10-15% of the world population is gay/lesbian/bisexual with about 5% transgendered. Also, these stats could STILL be wrong dude to fear of coming out or others knowing. So as many as 15 out of 100 of YOUR division could be gay.
But OP is right. The likelihood of there being several gay pros is VERY high. Most of them are likely scared to come out due to being boo'd away. Id say most of this community is gay friendly, but there are still some of use that still spew hate. It's fucking 2012 guys. Get over it!
On February 29 2012 13:21 Bagration wrote: 4% of the population is gay? Well, first off, I think you need to specify there. I was under the impression that there was a spectrum, rather than a black and white distinction, since a person can be bi-sexual but favor hetero relationships, or vice versa.
You wouldn't by any chance be referring to the Kinsey Scale would you?
If you are gay, embrace it. Most gay bashers are just people who can't come to grips with their own sexuality, and they take out there internal frustrations on you for having the courage to not give a shit about it.
As a straight man, I have no problem with gay people, alot of them are cool, and they have a ton of chick friends.
Its a win-win in my mind, 1 less man going after the hottest chicks, and the unique insight into life you get from talking to them.
As with most things in life, most of the things people hate on are just things they are insecure about. Insert awesome Gandhi quote: + Show Spoiler +
I think the fact that people are throwing around derogatory terms so easily in response to this thread, battle net, and most importantly the internet displays a concerning social issue.
How have we become so desensitized to this matter? Where we merely say it's ok to use derogatory terms over the internet just to convey a sense of anger.
Is it really easier to become mad with someone over the internet and insult them, which in the end achieves nothing, or to merely exit out, calm your self down, and proceed with another activity or move on to another game.
I find that in the same way the friends you choose reflect who you are. The way you act in the community reflects who you are, and the way the community around a game acts can as the OP said in paraphrase: make the game stronger or bring it down.
This is just a personal opinion, I'm new to Team Liquid so I don't even know if this kind of posting that I'm doing is applauded or looked down upon. I feel like the OP did a good job calling attention to the subject matter, especially with what the social stigma is doing to our growing homosexual orientation. All I can say is that coming from an extremely conservative family I have grown to accept, with the help of the internet oddly enough, that people are born differently and allowed to choose whatever orientation they prefer and should be free from judgement.
Sorry for making this nearly as long as the original post, hope every one who has taken the time to read this until the end has a wonderful day.
I could see if someone walked straight up to your face and called you a faggot or gay or something (and they know you to be so) then that is terrible. Someone calling you that over the internet or sc2, they have absolutely no idea of your sexual preference and there is virtually no way you could know. I would not get offended from someone insulting me that knows absolutely nothing about me. There are probly more heterosexual people that get called these terms then there are homosexual.
Faggot == Nigger. If one is not okay, then the other is definitely the fuck not. Both have been, and are used to oppress and hurt large minorities. Nobody has that right.
EPT
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