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kajtarp
Hungary482 Posts
On March 14 2018 22:25 TW wrote: So when is the patch going live? Post or pre GSL? Seems like this can have major impact on Stats vs Soo. Yeah, droperlord nerf will help Stats so much... | ||
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bObA
France300 Posts
On March 14 2018 20:18 LRObot wrote: Zerg logic: Win 7 tournaments in a row. No Terran in the finals for any of them. Balance is fine. Terran deserves nerfs but Zerg doesn't. Well said | ||
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bObA
France300 Posts
On March 14 2018 19:52 kajtarp wrote: Seeker missiles were always like a cancer to watch, Mass fungals/Broodlords were not ? | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
On March 14 2018 16:18 Tyrhanius wrote: Nyndus is just too expensive not to be used as all-in. 300gas just for 1 worm ! In the man time protoss can warp everywhere for 200mineral and recall for free. And yeah you are again of those asking for deleting one of the rare agressive options of zerg... Like zerg should be stuck to only defend the first 6-7mins. - Yes early game nydus is all-in. But it is OP at it. Dosen't make any sense at all. Remember the days protoss 4gated you in your base with a pylon behind the threes ? feels the same, but with a 100% sure pylon. That's why i would keep dropverlord but nerf nydus. Same as #64. - Zerg is right now the strongest race for early game aggression/cheeses. Just watch Scarlett, bly, Rogue, etc. Zerg also have plenty way of playing super-aggressive mid-game. Again, watch Rogue. (from banes max-out to mass ravager timing to aggro ling/bane/hydra to aggro hydra/lurker to mass ling/bane counter-attack style ala Life/True, etc.) | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On March 14 2018 21:02 kajtarp wrote: First, im not Zerg, second i hate Mass Raven play since forever. Maru almost 3-0'd Rogue and if he doesnt choke after 2-0 we wouldn't even talk about this. Plus he has every chance to make GSL Finals and win the whole thing. What 7 tournaments in a row? Last year GSL was won by Protoss, Terran, Terran. SSL Terran, Protoss. Rogue won some weekend tournaments and Blizzcon. You count Serral victory as balance issue while foreign scene does not have one good Terran player maybe except Special (who is/was always a bit overrated imho) ? As i see currently each race has some good players, (Inno Maru TY alive, Stats Classic hero sOs, Rogue Dark soO Solar) and whoever is in good shape goes into the final stages of tournaments. Yes all the races have good players, so you'd expect all three to get decent results right? Which isn't the case. By any measure, zerg is overperforming and terran is underperforming. That's why one is getting nerfed and the other isn't. The last 7 premier tournaments have had either ZvZ or ZvP final. With zerg winning 5 of them (sure some people will ignore IEM pyeongchang due to the strange qualifying system). It'll be a miracle if this GSL isn't a ZvZ final for the first time since WoL. Even if you look at the few tournaments since 4.0: HSC XVI had one terran in the ro8, GSL Code S had one terran in the ro8, WCS Leipzig had one terran in the ro8, and IEM katowice had 2 terrans in the ro12. It's obvious which race is weaker. | ||
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
Nydus NEED a nerf; without killing it. Making it not immortal anymore but with +3 armors would be good. Or adding an effect : casters abilitie need 3 secondes to be usable after getting through a Nydus. | ||
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spenzzer
19 Posts
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
Not in love at all with the current Raven - but it's good to see they quickly recognized that 10 health on a unit that's still worse than sky units for Protoss and Zerg wouldn't be close to compensation. It's pretty funny to me also to see the people whining now about how "unwatchable" it is - claiming to not care about the balance implication - clearly with the shoe on the other foot they'd be crying and arguing how BL/infestor and Mothership/Carrier is so "fun to watch" LOL | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On March 14 2018 23:25 DomeGetta wrote: It's pretty funny to me also to see the people whining now about how "unwatchable" it is - claiming to not care about the balance implication - clearly with the shoe on the other foot they'd be crying and arguing how BL/infestor and Mothership/Carrier is so "fun to watch" LOL Lucky for them that the unwatchable race barely makes ro8s anyway. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On March 14 2018 23:25 DomeGetta wrote: It's pretty funny to me also to see the people whining now about how "unwatchable" it is - claiming to not care about the balance implication - clearly with the shoe on the other foot they'd be crying and arguing how BL/infestor and Mothership/Carrier is so "fun to watch" LOL As I said, mass infestor+mass spore is hard to watch after the first few times, and Mass carrier+mothership is not only hard to watch but incredibly frustrating to play against. And it absolutely is a strat, that low level players do on ladder all the time (unlike mass raven). Hell, i do it as an offrace protoss in diamond, even though i dont know most P hotkeys to this day, i can win easily if i ever get up to that comp. Not that my offrace stats have any meaning balance wise. | ||
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kajtarp
Hungary482 Posts
On March 14 2018 22:59 Fango wrote: Yes all the races have good players, so you'd expect all three to get decent results right? Which isn't the case. By any measure, zerg is overperforming and terran is underperforming. That's why one is getting nerfed and the other isn't. The last 7 premier tournaments have had either ZvZ or ZvP final. With zerg winning 5 of them (sure some people will ignore IEM pyeongchang due to the strange qualifying system). It'll be a miracle if this GSL isn't a ZvZ final for the first time since WoL. Even if you look at the few tournaments since 4.0: HSC XVI had one terran in the ro8, GSL Code S had one terran in the ro8, WCS Leipzig had one terran in the ro8, and IEM katowice had 2 terrans in the ro12. It's obvious which race is weaker. Innovation playing arrogant in last weeks has nothing to do with balance. TY losing to alive in GSL (while if he wins he could have knocked out soO) has again nothing to with balance. In foreign scene obviously there will be a P or Z in the finals, because of Neeb, Serral and the fact foreign scene has not one single strong terran. Remember when Dreamhacks, IEM's HSC's always had someone like Taeja or Polt? That again has nothing to do with balance. If the best players are not doing well, its because the players themselvs are not performing. Those 12 players i mentioned are imo totally capable of beating each other on a good day. Would we even have this conversation if Innovation would have wrecked almost every tournament like last year? | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On March 14 2018 23:33 Geo.Rion wrote: As I said, mass infestor+mass spore is hard to watch after the first few times, and Mass carrier+mothership is not only hard to watch but incredibly frustrating to play against. And it absolutely is a strat, that low level players do on ladder all the time (unlike mass raven). Hell, i do it as an offrace protoss in diamond, even though i dont know most P hotkeys to this day, i can win easily if i ever get up to that comp. Not that my offrace stats have any meaning balance wise. Yah - so my point is - to the people crying about "omg terrible design - terrible to watch" - where is your uproar about all the shit Protoss and Zerg has had for the history of the game that takes no skill to micro and is terrible to watch? Why are you not proposing nerfs to these to go along with a Raven nerf? Nah - because that might impact your MMR a few tiers - and forget that right? Instead you'll search for any possible reason to bait the forums and the balance team into nerfing currently worst performing race - wonder what the next one will be. | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On March 14 2018 23:37 kajtarp wrote: Innovation playing arrogant in last weeks has nothing to do with balance. TY losing to alive in GSL (while if he wins he could have knocked out soO) has again nothing to with balance. In foreign scene obviously there will be a P or Z in the finals, because of Neeb, Serral and the fact foreign scene has not one single strong terran. Remember when Dreamhacks, IEM's HSC's always had someone like Taeja or Polt? That again has nothing to do with balance. If the best players are not doing well, its because the players themselvs are not performing. Those 12 players i mentioned are imo totally capable of beating each other on a good day. Would we even have this conversation if Innovation would have wrecked almost every tournament like last year? Actually can't tell if this is a for serious post. He throws up factual information - and your explanation is: "innovation is playing arrogant" Ty lost to alive.. OBVIOUSLY there can never be a dominant foreign Terran right? Because the race is hard to play. Remember Taeja and Polt? What if innovation won everything??! (but - he didn't tho..) | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On March 14 2018 23:40 DomeGetta wrote: Yah - so my point is - to the people crying about "omg terrible design - terrible to watch" - where is your uproar about all the shit Protoss and Zerg has had for the history of the game that takes no skill to micro and is terrible to watch? Why are you not proposing nerfs to these to go along with a Raven nerf? Nah - because that might impact your MMR a few tiers - and forget that right? Instead you'll search for any possible reason to bait the forums and the balance team into nerfing currently worst performing race - wonder what the next one will be. This so much. So many absurd things in the game and they whine about Ravens and pretend that Carriers, Parasitic bomb and Nydus is just fine. | ||
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Jerom
Netherlands588 Posts
If they are to nerf the raven or rework it, blizzard needs to seriously look at terran lategame. It's okay that they don't get a top tier lategame army to turtle up to, but the state without ravens of terran lategame is just terrible. It's so frustrating when you realize that you are just fucked if you don't win before protoss maxes out. That design is simply way too extreme. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On March 14 2018 23:40 DomeGetta wrote: Yah - so my point is - to the people crying about "omg terrible design - terrible to watch" - where is your uproar about all the shit Protoss and Zerg has had for the history of the game that takes no skill to micro and is terrible to watch? Why are you not proposing nerfs to these to go along with a Raven nerf? Nah - because that might impact your MMR a few tiers - and forget that right? Instead you'll search for any possible reason to bait the forums and the balance team into nerfing currently worst performing race - wonder what the next one will be. it s a bit of a stretch to say people arent complaining about carriers (i personally contributed a lot to this campaign) or infestors, open any live report thread and it is filled with it. And in the balance update threads it comes up every time, this one included. obviously, since the object of the update would have been the raven, it is naturally the central point of discussion. As ravens go, i stated that i dont give that much of a shit about missiles, tho i support the reasoning behind nerfing them, and resent the Terran whining about it. | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
[QUOTE]On March 14 2018 23:40 DomeGetta wrote: [QUOTE]On March 14 2018 23:33 Geo.Rion wrote: [QUOTE]On March 14 2018 23:25 DomeGetta wrote: It's pretty funny to me also to see the people whining now about how "unwatchable" it is - claiming to not care about the balance implication - clearly with the shoe on the other foot they'd be crying and arguing how BL/infestor and Mothership/Carrier is so "fun to watch" LOL[/QUOTE] As I said, mass infestor+mass spore is hard to watch after the first few times, and Mass carrier+mothership is not only hard to watch but incredibly frustrating to play against. And it absolutely is a strat, that low level players do on ladder all the time (unlike mass raven). Hell, i do it as an offrace protoss in diamond, even though i dont know most P hotkeys to this day, i can win easily if i ever get up to that comp. Not that my offrace stats have any meaning balance wise.[/QUOTE] Yah - so my point is - to the people crying about "omg terrible design - terrible to watch" - where is your uproar about all the shit Protoss and Zerg has had for the history of the game that takes no skill to micro and is terrible to watch? Why are you not proposing nerfs to these to go along with a Raven nerf? Nah - because that might impact your MMR a few tiers - and forget that right? Instead you'll search for any possible reason to bait the forums and the balance team into nerfing currently worst performing race - wonder what the next one will be.[/QUOTE] it s a bit of a stretch to say people arent complaining about carriers (i personally contributed a lot to this campaign) or infestors, open any live report thread and it is filled with it. And in the balance update threads it comes up every time, this one included. obviously, since the object of the update would have been the raven, it is naturally the central point of discussion. As ravens go, i stated that i dont give that much of a shit about missiles, tho i support the reasoning behind nerfing them, and resent the Terran whining about it.[/QUOTE The illllllogic is real. You just called my post a stretch while accidentally affirming it. Quote a single post in this thread (including the one you just made) where the author cries about Raven design but ALSO proposes a nerf to their own races late game? "i support the reasoning behing nerfing them, an resent the Terran whining about it." So you support nerfing Terrans "bullshit" independent of the fact that it will be nerfing the already worst performing race - and you think they should do it while leaving alone Protoss and Zergs bullshit - or you have a proposal for a fitting nerf for each Protoss and Zerg's Tier 3 that will make late game closer to balanced? Either you dislike the bullshit or you don't - you can't selectively dislike it - saying "well I hate spore/infestor also.." is well and good - but unless the balance discussion becomes something that includes all 3 races - it's not logical to call Terran players "whiners" because they want a chance to win after 15 min in the game lol - you must see how ridiculous this sounds. Am I dreaming or do the proposed changes have any tier 3 nerfs in there for Protoss or Zerg? Terran is "whining?" because they are calling bullshit on nerfing the race with the worst late game? Please explain - I'm interested in your circular logic. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 15 2018 00:00 Jerom wrote: I'm happy to see they are not instantly nuking ravens. While I think almost everyone here would agree that in the current state the raven design is probably not the greatest, I do think most people would also agree that terran's lategame is in a terrible spot in the lategame without it. For years now people have told Terrans to "kill the player before he gets the deathball" or Terrans just have been forced to deal with splitting against stuff like psionic storm. It feels really silly that after two weeks of terran players having some sort of really hard to beat lategame army, it's nerfed without questioning. If they are to nerf the raven or rework it, blizzard needs to seriously look at terran lategame. It's okay that they don't get a top tier lategame army to turtle up to, but the state without ravens of terran lategame is just terrible. It's so frustrating when you realize that you are just fucked if you don't win before protoss maxes out. That design is simply way too extreme. Can you link me to a game, where a Terran pro was splitting something really slow against storms? Would love to see that. (as the AAM is designated to fight slow flying fortresses) And just a small thingy, storm doesn't stack, AAM does. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
Thus, we wanted to bring the spell back in line with its original intent, to make it feel truer to its intended role, and eventually move the power it lost elsewhere in the Terran army. This could be in the form of direct late game power. Or perhaps this power could be directed more towards the mid-game, which would allow Terran players to transition more easily or delay an opponent’s transition. Hey Blizzard. The point is, Terran is extremely weak at this moment. Only 1 Terran made the Ro8 in the GSL. Only 2 Terran made the playoffs at IEM. The Viking buff was a nice gesture to complement the nerf to the anti-armor missile. But Terrran is struggling hard right now, especially against Protoss. Acknowledge that Terran is weak, and make changes to balance the matchup. When you do that, I think the nerf to the anti-armor missile and buff to the Viking will be reasonable. Also, Protoss late game is very strong. The anti-armor missile as it is now simply makes it possible for Terran to win. But Protoss late game is still stronger than Terran. | ||
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Jerom
Netherlands588 Posts
On March 15 2018 00:18 deacon.frost wrote: Can you link me to a game, where a Terran pro was splitting something really slow against storms? Would love to see that. (as the AAM is designated to fight slow flying fortresses) And just a small thingy, storm doesn't stack, AAM does. It's surely different, and the raven surely is a bit over the top, but it just seems extremely inconsistent to nerf something like this within weeks. Terrans have to split their vikings against all sorts of stuff including storms, fungal and parasitic bomb, and they can actually pull this off somewhat after practise. I don't feel like going through VODs to find poor splits against storms. I thought it's common knowledge that storms sometimes just obliterate a terran army? I've seen it happen countless times. I haven't really seen people put a lot of effort into actually presplitting against AAM, I haven't seen protoss players getting skilled at feedbacking the ravens. I actually skimmed over the maru vs stats game the other day and noticed that stats grouped up his entire army, that had a huge amount of useless tempests, and failed to actually control his high templar well to get any sort of feedback threat. But it's just the sentiment: AAM is sure as hell a gimmicky and poorly designed ability, and maybe the eventual Raven deathball is really hard to beat, but there are similair abilities in the game that terran has had to deal with since the very beginning of the game. Fungal growth, storm, insane deathballs, parasitic bomb. The answer was always to kill the other player before it happens or to get better at splitting, yet the same logic doesn't apply to other races at all. Without the raven, terran is up against a way more frustrating deathball that's basically unbeatable, yet that is apperantly completely fine. | ||
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