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On March 14 2018 23:37 kajtarp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 22:59 Fango wrote:On March 14 2018 21:02 kajtarp wrote:
Yes all the races have good players, so you'd expect all three to get decent results right? Which isn't the case. By any measure, zerg is overperforming and terran is underperforming. That's why one is getting nerfed and the other isn't. The last 7 premier tournaments have had either ZvZ or ZvP final. With zerg winning 5 of them (sure some people will ignore IEM pyeongchang due to the strange qualifying system). It'll be a miracle if this GSL isn't a ZvZ final for the first time since WoL. Even if you look at the few tournaments since 4.0: HSC XVI had one terran in the ro8, GSL Code S had one terran in the ro8, WCS Leipzig had one terran in the ro8, and IEM katowice had 2 terrans in the ro12. It's obvious which race is weaker. Innovation playing arrogant in last weeks has nothing to do with balance. TY losing to alive in GSL (while if he wins he could have knocked out soO) has again nothing to with balance. In foreign scene obviously there will be a P or Z in the finals, because of Neeb, Serral and the fact foreign scene has not one single strong terran. Remember when Dreamhacks, IEM's HSC's always had someone like Taeja or Polt? That again has nothing to do with balance. If the best players are not doing well, its because the players themselvs are not performing. Those 12 players i mentioned are imo totally capable of beating each other on a good day. Would we even have this conversation if Innovation would have wrecked almost every tournament like last year?
Agreed, terran players just suck.
They should suck it up and just play as good as Protoss and Zerg players, then they will win again.
Same thing happened in the BL/Infestor era.
If Mvp had won every single tournament back then nobody would have considered it OP.
Players just need to git gud!
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While I agree with Blizzard move on the ravens, it is funny that old "terran can whine their way out of every nerf" rule still apply.
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On March 15 2018 00:56 Nars_ wrote:
While I agree with Blizzard move on the ravens, it is funny that old "terran can whine their way out of every nerf" rule still apply.
Actually the exact same thing happened with the Stalker nerf.
It wasn't implemented at first solely because of protoss whine.
Probably same with Raven and they will just nerf it later.
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I have no opinion about the proposed changes, my balance thinking is mostly about the state of PvZ late game; mass spores vs mass carriers and whoever attacks first auto loses, it seems very lame to me.
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On March 14 2018 23:37 kajtarp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 22:59 Fango wrote:On March 14 2018 21:02 kajtarp wrote:
Yes all the races have good players, so you'd expect all three to get decent results right? Which isn't the case. By any measure, zerg is overperforming and terran is underperforming. That's why one is getting nerfed and the other isn't. The last 7 premier tournaments have had either ZvZ or ZvP final. With zerg winning 5 of them (sure some people will ignore IEM pyeongchang due to the strange qualifying system). It'll be a miracle if this GSL isn't a ZvZ final for the first time since WoL. Even if you look at the few tournaments since 4.0: HSC XVI had one terran in the ro8, GSL Code S had one terran in the ro8, WCS Leipzig had one terran in the ro8, and IEM katowice had 2 terrans in the ro12. It's obvious which race is weaker. Innovation playing arrogant in last weeks has nothing to do with balance. TY losing to alive in GSL (while if he wins he could have knocked out soO) has again nothing to with balance. In foreign scene obviously there will be a P or Z in the finals, because of Neeb, Serral and the fact foreign scene has not one single strong terran. Remember when Dreamhacks, IEM's HSC's always had someone like Taeja or Polt? That again has nothing to do with balance. If the best players are not doing well, its because the players themselvs are not performing. Those 12 players i mentioned are imo totally capable of beating each other on a good day. Would we even have this conversation if Innovation would have wrecked almost every tournament like last year?
I agree, every terran player that isn't Maru just happened to start underperforming when patch 4.0 happened. Nothing to do with the balance.
Also you know when Innovation started destroying last year we did complain, and terran got nerfed as a result right? After that all three races were getting far in tournaments. This year zerg is clearly doing better than P and a lot better than T.
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On March 15 2018 00:56 Nars_ wrote:
While I agree with Blizzard move on the ravens, it is funny that old "terran can whine their way out of every nerf" rule still apply.
It's either that or "blizz nerf anything if people whine enough".
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On March 15 2018 01:04 xTJx wrote:
I have no opinion about the proposed changes, my balance thinking is mostly about the state of PvZ late game; mass spores vs mass carriers and whoever attacks first auto loses, it seems very lame to me.
The root of the problem is the strength of mass air armies but for some reason Blizzard refused to adress this or even acknowledge it as a problem.
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On March 15 2018 00:16 DomeGetta wrote:
The illllllogic is real.
You just called my post a stretch while accidentally affirming it.
Quote a single post in this thread (including the one you just made) where the author cries about Raven design but ALSO proposes a nerf to their own races late game? "i support the reasoning behing nerfing them, an resent the Terran whining about it." So you support nerfing Terrans "bullshit" independent of the fact that it will be nerfing the already worst performing race - and you think they should do it while leaving alone Protoss and Zergs bullshit - or you have a proposal for a fitting nerf for each Protoss and Zerg's Tier 3 that will make late game closer to balanced?
Either you dislike the bullshit or you don't - you can't selectively dislike it - saying "well I hate spore/infestor also.." is well and good - but unless the balance discussion becomes something that includes all 3 races - it's not logical to call Terran players "whiners" because they want a chance to win after 15 min in the game lol - you must see how ridiculous this sounds.
Am I dreaming or do the proposed changes have any tier 3 nerfs in there for Protoss or Zerg?
Terran is "whining?" because they are calling bullshit on nerfing the race with the worst late game?
Please explain - I'm interested in your circular logic.
Couple of things
1. One of my original points was that, sadly, whining about balance actually works, as proven by this very patch-note that was retracted. So, no, i wont say certain Zerg unit is overpowered, cuz i dont want to add my voice to the counter-campaign, even if I felt like it was the case (and it is not the case). If you need a quote from me dishing skytoss/carriers, that s most of my post history since I came back to this site after a long break + Show Spoiler +(exaggerating a bit, but seriously, fuck carriers)
2. I dislike bullshit/ mechanics that make the game boring or onesided MUs. That being said, i will never stop calling terran whiners whiners, because it was about hightime they taste their own medicine. While they dominated every top8 and won most titles for a long period, it was a game about skill, where terrans happened to have the most talent. It was so frustrating i quit the game in WoL, and never bothered to buy HOTS or LOTV. Now that they arent doing so hot, it s all about the balance.
3. For me there s quite a difference between my own ladder experience, and my viewer experience. For one, ZvtT is my worst matchup by a mile, way below 50%. Not because of mass ravens, but because all the other bullshit. So from that viewpoint, i couldnt give a shit about ravens, but i want terrans to be hit so maybe my own ladder experience would improve. As a viewer, i would enjoy Terrans doing better vs Protoss, because A. i like to watch high level ZvT, B. recent public tournament stats seem to suggest P have the edge in that particular MU.
The highest caliber tournament of the last several months had these stats (444 games): exactly 50-50 PvZ, 50-50 TvZ, 53.5-46.5 PvT.
If you look at just the main tournament games (191), the stats arent so nice, but the biggest outlier is still PvT, with 57.8%-42.2%.
Most recent GSL stats? Clear trend of P >>>T >> Z>P
ZvP 53.5%
TvZ 56.7%
PvT 57.9%
The trend is clear, it s a volatile scene, but P seems to have the edge vs Terran in every aspect.
So when i look at that as a viewer, i say, yeah Terran needs help against Protoss, but wihtout buffing them in TvZ, cuz data supports they have no need for that.
Plus, i also want enjoyable games. I dislike cheese, and i dislike (repated) starving out/camping games. some cheese is cool, some games of guerilla warfare vs deathball skytoss is cool. Seeing lot of either of those kills the experience for me.
Blizz did a decent job (well, compared to WOL at least, lol) at quelling the cheese-meta, in no small part due to the map pool, the very least 1 base allins are few and far between, and 2 base allin sometimes can look to a viewer as a normal strat that happens to win earlier than expected, or sometimes those allin games go onto being normal games, so it s fine.
Zerg tier 3 does not need nerf, zergs arent winning the tournaments because they're camping/defending till they have broodlords, and then rofl to the win. Most finals/seminfinals have 1 game that goes super late and 2-4 that end in early/midgame.
The only lategame strat, that once you get there seems impossible to beat is having the map covered in creep, 100 crawlers and 40 infestors with some spire units. yeah, that s a mission impossible (having some spores, and some infestors and some other units is not the same as what i ve just wrote). I ve seen that done on screen maybe 3 or 4 times.
Mass ravens have been so far similarly rare, with the important distinction that their new spell is quite fresh out of the oven, and the meta might not have caught up yet. And terran is excelent at camping, if the "research" is in, and Koreans say that s the way to go, very soon every pro T is going camping with tanks+PF+Viking into mass ravens. I for one, as a viewer, dont want it to go there, so i support in principal the nerf, in the meantime, open to other changes which help out T against the midgame protoss. + Show Spoiler +zealot legs, archons, something?)
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On March 15 2018 00:56 Nars_ wrote:
While I agree with Blizzard move on the ravens, it is funny that old "terran can whine their way out of every nerf" rule still apply.
i don't think they can. had the final 16 of the GSL been all Terran then they'd be getting nerfed no matter how much whining there was by Terrans.
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On March 15 2018 02:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2018 00:56 Nars_ wrote:
While I agree with Blizzard move on the ravens, it is funny that old "terran can whine their way out of every nerf" rule still apply. i don't think they can. had the final 16 of the GSL been all Terran then they'd be getting nerfed no matter how much whining there was by Terrans.
Remember GomTvT?
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On March 15 2018 00:56 Nars_ wrote:
While I agree with Blizzard move on the ravens, it is funny that old "terran can whine their way out of every nerf" rule still apply.
That's probably why 2 of the 3 core terran bio units got nerfed hard (maraudeurs, mines), i guess.
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On March 15 2018 01:14 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2018 01:04 xTJx wrote:
I have no opinion about the proposed changes, my balance thinking is mostly about the state of PvZ late game; mass spores vs mass carriers and whoever attacks first auto loses, it seems very lame to me. The root of the problem is the strength of mass air armies but for some reason Blizzard refused to adress this or even acknowledge it as a problem.
That.
Mass air armies with proper support (templars/viper-spores/etc) is OP and boring af. So only similar OP things like ravens can challenge theses plays, and we are in a vicious circle.
Blizard usual way to fix this is to nerf one race mas air/turtle comp but not the other, so one race have to win on a timer. Generally they nerf terran. And, even as a Terran player, that was not as bad as a solution when Terran was strong in mid-game (ie when no OP infestors in TvZ, for example). At least thaht forced very dynamic T2 games.
But nowdays, with hydras and double forge, Terran midgame is so weak "killing it before T3" only works if the T player is way way ahead from early-game. Ghosts are strong vs Z (but induce turtle play by design), but the raven BS was the only hope vs late game toss.
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Pitiful. Might as well disband the dev team and let PMs handle the balance.
User was warned for this post
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On March 15 2018 02:13 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2018 00:16 DomeGetta wrote:
The illllllogic is real.
You just called my post a stretch while accidentally affirming it.
Quote a single post in this thread (including the one you just made) where the author cries about Raven design but ALSO proposes a nerf to their own races late game? "i support the reasoning behing nerfing them, an resent the Terran whining about it." So you support nerfing Terrans "bullshit" independent of the fact that it will be nerfing the already worst performing race - and you think they should do it while leaving alone Protoss and Zergs bullshit - or you have a proposal for a fitting nerf for each Protoss and Zerg's Tier 3 that will make late game closer to balanced?
Either you dislike the bullshit or you don't - you can't selectively dislike it - saying "well I hate spore/infestor also.." is well and good - but unless the balance discussion becomes something that includes all 3 races - it's not logical to call Terran players "whiners" because they want a chance to win after 15 min in the game lol - you must see how ridiculous this sounds.
Am I dreaming or do the proposed changes have any tier 3 nerfs in there for Protoss or Zerg?
Terran is "whining?" because they are calling bullshit on nerfing the race with the worst late game?
Please explain - I'm interested in your circular logic.
Couple of things 1. One of my original points was that, sadly, whining about balance actually works, as proven by this very patch-note that was retracted. So, no, i wont say certain Zerg unit is overpowered, cuz i dont want to add my voice to the counter-campaign, even if I felt like it was the case (and it is not the case). If you need a quote from me dishing skytoss/carriers, that s most of my post history since I came back to this site after a long break + Show Spoiler +(exaggerating a bit, but seriously, fuck carriers) . 2. I dislike bullshit/ mechanics that make the game boring or onesided MUs. That being said, i will never stop calling terran whiners whiners, because it was about hightime they taste their own medicine. While they dominated every top8 and won most titles for a long period, it was a game about skill, where terrans happened to have the most talent. It was so frustrating i quit the game in WoL, and never bothered to buy HOTS or LOTV. Now that they arent doing so hot, it s all about the balance. 3. For me there s quite a difference between my own ladder experience, and my viewer experience. For one, ZvtT is my worst matchup by a mile, way below 50%. Not because of mass ravens, but because all the other bullshit. So from that viewpoint, i couldnt give a shit about ravens, but i want terrans to be hit so maybe my own ladder experience would improve. As a viewer, i would enjoy Terrans doing better vs Protoss, because A. i like to watch high level ZvT, B. recent public tournament stats seem to suggest P have the edge in that particular MU. The highest caliber tournament of the last several months had these stats (444 games): exactly 50-50 PvZ, 50-50 TvZ, 53.5-46.5 PvT.If you look at just the main tournament games (191), the stats arent so nice, but the biggest outlier is still PvT, with 57.8%-42.2%. Most recent GSL stats? Clear trend of P >>>T >> Z>P ZvP 53.5% TvZ 56.7% PvT 57.9% The trend is clear, it s a volatile scene, but P seems to have the edge vs Terran in every aspect. So when i look at that as a viewer, i say, yeah Terran needs help against Protoss, but wihtout buffing them in TvZ, cuz data supports they have no need for that. Plus, i also want enjoyable games. I dislike cheese, and i dislike (repated) starving out/camping games. some cheese is cool, some games of guerilla warfare vs deathball skytoss is cool. Seeing lot of either of those kills the experience for me. Blizz did a decent job (well, compared to WOL at least, lol) at quelling the cheese-meta, in no small part due to the map pool, the very least 1 base allins are few and far between, and 2 base allin sometimes can look to a viewer as a normal strat that happens to win earlier than expected, or sometimes those allin games go onto being normal games, so it s fine. Zerg tier 3 does not need nerf, zergs arent winning the tournaments because they're camping/defending till they have broodlords, and then rofl to the win. Most finals/seminfinals have 1 game that goes super late and 2-4 that end in early/midgame. The only lategame strat, that once you get there seems impossible to beat is having the map covered in creep, 100 crawlers and 40 infestors with some spire units. yeah, that s a mission impossible (having some spores, and some infestors and some other units is not the same as what i ve just wrote). I ve seen that done on screen maybe 3 or 4 times. Mass ravens have been so far similarly rare, with the important distinction that their new spell is quite fresh out of the oven, and the meta might not have caught up yet. And terran is excelent at camping, if the "research" is in, and Koreans say that s the way to go, very soon every pro T is going camping with tanks+PF+Viking into mass ravens. I for one, as a viewer, dont want it to go there, so i support in principal the nerf, in the meantime, open to other changes which help out T against the midgame protoss. + Show Spoiler +zealot legs, archons, something?)
Just saying, your stats conveniently include pre Stalker nerf matches.
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On March 15 2018 03:00 yangluphil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2018 02:13 Geo.Rion wrote:On March 15 2018 00:16 DomeGetta wrote:
The illllllogic is real.
You just called my post a stretch while accidentally affirming it.
Quote a single post in this thread (including the one you just made) where the author cries about Raven design but ALSO proposes a nerf to their own races late game? "i support the reasoning behing nerfing them, an resent the Terran whining about it." So you support nerfing Terrans "bullshit" independent of the fact that it will be nerfing the already worst performing race - and you think they should do it while leaving alone Protoss and Zergs bullshit - or you have a proposal for a fitting nerf for each Protoss and Zerg's Tier 3 that will make late game closer to balanced?
Either you dislike the bullshit or you don't - you can't selectively dislike it - saying "well I hate spore/infestor also.." is well and good - but unless the balance discussion becomes something that includes all 3 races - it's not logical to call Terran players "whiners" because they want a chance to win after 15 min in the game lol - you must see how ridiculous this sounds.
Am I dreaming or do the proposed changes have any tier 3 nerfs in there for Protoss or Zerg?
Terran is "whining?" because they are calling bullshit on nerfing the race with the worst late game?
Please explain - I'm interested in your circular logic.
Couple of things 1. One of my original points was that, sadly, whining about balance actually works, as proven by this very patch-note that was retracted. So, no, i wont say certain Zerg unit is overpowered, cuz i dont want to add my voice to the counter-campaign, even if I felt like it was the case (and it is not the case). If you need a quote from me dishing skytoss/carriers, that s most of my post history since I came back to this site after a long break + Show Spoiler +(exaggerating a bit, but seriously, fuck carriers) . 2. I dislike bullshit/ mechanics that make the game boring or onesided MUs. That being said, i will never stop calling terran whiners whiners, because it was about hightime they taste their own medicine. While they dominated every top8 and won most titles for a long period, it was a game about skill, where terrans happened to have the most talent. It was so frustrating i quit the game in WoL, and never bothered to buy HOTS or LOTV. Now that they arent doing so hot, it s all about the balance. 3. For me there s quite a difference between my own ladder experience, and my viewer experience. For one, ZvtT is my worst matchup by a mile, way below 50%. Not because of mass ravens, but because all the other bullshit. So from that viewpoint, i couldnt give a shit about ravens, but i want terrans to be hit so maybe my own ladder experience would improve. As a viewer, i would enjoy Terrans doing better vs Protoss, because A. i like to watch high level ZvT, B. recent public tournament stats seem to suggest P have the edge in that particular MU. The highest caliber tournament of the last several months had these stats (444 games): exactly 50-50 PvZ, 50-50 TvZ, 53.5-46.5 PvT.If you look at just the main tournament games (191), the stats arent so nice, but the biggest outlier is still PvT, with 57.8%-42.2%. Most recent GSL stats? Clear trend of P >>>T >> Z>P ZvP 53.5% TvZ 56.7% PvT 57.9% The trend is clear, it s a volatile scene, but P seems to have the edge vs Terran in every aspect. So when i look at that as a viewer, i say, yeah Terran needs help against Protoss, but wihtout buffing them in TvZ, cuz data supports they have no need for that. Plus, i also want enjoyable games. I dislike cheese, and i dislike (repated) starving out/camping games. some cheese is cool, some games of guerilla warfare vs deathball skytoss is cool. Seeing lot of either of those kills the experience for me. Blizz did a decent job (well, compared to WOL at least, lol) at quelling the cheese-meta, in no small part due to the map pool, the very least 1 base allins are few and far between, and 2 base allin sometimes can look to a viewer as a normal strat that happens to win earlier than expected, or sometimes those allin games go onto being normal games, so it s fine. Zerg tier 3 does not need nerf, zergs arent winning the tournaments because they're camping/defending till they have broodlords, and then rofl to the win. Most finals/seminfinals have 1 game that goes super late and 2-4 that end in early/midgame. The only lategame strat, that once you get there seems impossible to beat is having the map covered in creep, 100 crawlers and 40 infestors with some spire units. yeah, that s a mission impossible (having some spores, and some infestors and some other units is not the same as what i ve just wrote). I ve seen that done on screen maybe 3 or 4 times. Mass ravens have been so far similarly rare, with the important distinction that their new spell is quite fresh out of the oven, and the meta might not have caught up yet. And terran is excelent at camping, if the "research" is in, and Koreans say that s the way to go, very soon every pro T is going camping with tanks+PF+Viking into mass ravens. I for one, as a viewer, dont want it to go there, so i support in principal the nerf, in the meantime, open to other changes which help out T against the midgame protoss. + Show Spoiler +zealot legs, archons, something?) Just saying, your stats conveniently include pre Stalker nerf matches.
they do? i ve looked at the 2 most recent high-level tournaments, GSL (currently running), and iEM Katowice, both played out after the patch, afaik.
I guess some o the preliminary games were on the old patch?
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On March 15 2018 00:56 Nars_ wrote:
While I agree with Blizzard move on the ravens, it is funny that old "terran can whine their way out of every nerf" rule still apply.
It does not.
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Seems like the trend continues on WESG.
Special is out winning a single map against Zergs,
uThermal on his way out.
Only Maru in ro16?
Hope we all enjoy another pvz and zvz till final.
Maybe it is time to help Terrans instead of thinking how to nerf them.
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On March 15 2018 17:44 TW wrote:
Seems like the trend continues on WESG.
Special is out winning a single map against Zergs,
uThermal on his way out.
Only Maru in ro16?
Hope we all enjoy another pvz and zvz till final.
Maybe it is time to help Terrans instead of thinking how to nerf them.
Nice preemptive whine, impressive how every single one of your sentences is wrong:
1.Special won 5 maps against Zerg.
2. uThermal has a good chance of qualifying, he had a close series against Classic, who now pwned Neeb, so as long as he can beat Neeb, he s through.
3. This is the ro16, so no. But yeah, Maru is the only one who has any chance against this field, that much is true.
4. from the amount of salt that dips from your post, i would conclude that you wont enjoy such a final, and you dont sincerely hope for the rest of us to enjoy the final either. Also, what will you do if the finals is PvT? tatoo a zerg logo on your forehead? deal?
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Keep Raven as it is.
Or
Significantly buff the battlecruiser. Maybe yamato deals AoE now or something.
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In some regard, what baffles me is that blizzard doesn't make public some kind of statistical representation of the balance of SC2 to justify their positions.
Wouldn't be hard to make, for instance taking the win ratio against every race of every "active" player on the ladder (or up from a certain league), only taking into account games that last more than 1 minute. I even doubt that the dev team has such metrics at its disposition, since the 4.0 patch was such a disaster.
Especially in regard to their apparent obliviousness to the fact that shifting power away from the raven and the mine towards other units isn't going to happen by nerfing mines and ravens into the ground and giving 10HP to the viking and the cyclone a useless AA upgrade, as well as the blatant oppressiveness of the queen that's been plaguing the game since the 8 range buff.
What's even more confusing is how they seemed to take very effective and interesting decisions post 4.0 (reduction of the cost of the terran's factory upgrades, ghost buff, reverting the chrono to 50% over 20 secs, etc.) and that the march community update are basically :
"We wanted to turn the raven into a support caster, but because we failed to redistribute some of its power while heavily nerfing it, we unintentionally made it as oppressive as it was before. Our plan now, is to nerf it back to a useless state while granting a 10 HP buff on the viking which, because of its atrocious overall stats, isn't doing its job : allowing it to survive 1 more corruptor or interceptor shot is sure to solve the issue"
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EPT
