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On March 17 2018 05:07 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2018 02:53 xongnox wrote:
PhotonRush is actually super duper strong in PvP, and probably imba on some maps. Just watch CripSeil wining vs pros with it (and everyone know CripSeil photonush 100% of the time, yet most P pro usually loose).
Protoss don't need super early photons to defend nowdays, so we could make the cyber (or gate?) required to build the forge. Only delete cancer play.
Please don't do that. It shuts down an entire set of potential openings. Forge first may not be in style in PvZ right now, but it needs to be a possibility to stop Zergs from playing crazy greedy. Without the threat of cannons, Zerg could double hatch before pool every game safely.
If forge was the way to punish 3hatch before pool, you would see both forge and 3hatch in ANY pro games. What actually happens is that 3hatch isn't much if any better than hatch gas pool hatch vs gateway expand (because adepts wreck slowlings)
I wouldn't personally remove possibility of cannon rushing just based on the rule of "git gud", but is indeed one of the most infuriating things in PvP.
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I really don't mind. I like the game as it evolves. Just keeps getting better.
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On March 17 2018 05:07 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2018 02:53 xongnox wrote:
PhotonRush is actually super duper strong in PvP, and probably imba on some maps. Just watch CripSeil wining vs pros with it (and everyone know CripSeil photonush 100% of the time, yet most P pro usually loose).
Protoss don't need super early photons to defend nowdays, so we could make the cyber (or gate?) required to build the forge. Only delete cancer play.
Please don't do that. It shuts down an entire set of potential openings. Forge first may not be in style in PvZ right now, but it needs to be a possibility to stop Zergs from playing crazy greedy. Without the threat of cannons, Zerg could double hatch before pool every game safely. Both cannon rushes and proxy stargate/shield battery stuff can be stopped with scouting and appropriate preparation/reaction. In the past, if there has been a spot on a map that has shown to be too good for cannon rushing, it has usually been fixed. There have been very few cases of that ever happening because usually. Shield battery rushes are no different than Protoss facing bunker-based all-ins. If you scout them and know what's happening, they are possible to stop, but if you don't scout them until after the bunkers are built, things become much more difficult to handle.
-We never see forge PvZ openings in pro games yet 2hatchs before pool is nearly non-existent. In fact in LOTV it brings little to nothing for Z vs other greed openings. It slow down everything to get nearly nothing (more larva ? not really with way later queens). Btw i bet 2gates adepts opening into expand then oracle would be way better than canon rushing vs 2hatch before pool. Or maybe even the standard proxy stargate after FE.
-When you see CripSeil in action you understand LOTV canonrush is probably imba in PvP on most maps. Btw he's by far the best canonrusher in the world. He know every abusive spot on every map. He wins pro like DNS or Drogo, and they 100% know he will canonrush.
TheMusZero is another GM photonrusher. He's not even good at it, but excels at the follow proxy BS+shield+canons.
Btw analogy with bunker rush vs P is very, very bad. Scouted bunker rax rushs is like auto-win for P. Even non-scouted it's very far for an automatic T win, even some 1base protoss play can do a lot (thx to WP and immortal mainly). In fact in LOV, i have only saw it works on 1 map with an abusive spot (neon violet) vs no-scout. SouL vs Stats.
Bunker rush still need units in them, etc. It's not like a 14 probes dude spawning 4tower/minutes (that is, more healthpoints/sec than the DPS of 2 stalkers ) in you base off one building and zero unit. This shit is not even starcraft or decent RTS for me.
Last but not least, bunker rush got a hard nerf (in early WOL, beta i think) by requiring supply before rax (yep, people bunker rushed with a rax at 6 back then, or you could do a 8/8 before depot). Back then, people would argue 8/8 bunker rush was a necessary way to meta-prevent the "way too greedy" 14 hatch first.
I don't know why pro players don't photonrush anymore in PvP. Kind of a gentleman agreement i guess. Last time i was it it was Zest, but he was as bad as ever at photonrushing. Maybe $o$ will bring it back one day and win some hundreds hundreds bucks for free.
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On March 17 2018 04:40 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2018 02:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 17 2018 00:42 youngjiddle wrote:
I'm actually so, so sick of people saying that air units are too strong.
This isn't brood war...
There's nothing wrong with late game units like carriers and broodlords being strong.
The point is that they are weak and the start of the game, you can't go straight for them or you die. You transition into them as you head into the late game. There is nothing wrong with wanting the game to evolve into different unit interactions as the game goes on.
Part of the reason mass oracle was so good was because it allowed protoss to transition so fast into mass carrier...
So you find mass air vs air battles exciting? Lategame stalemates a la Neeb vs Rogue is what you want to see in SC2? You're actually the first person I've seen arguing in favor of mass air vs air stalemates being the dominant strategy in lategame The point I was trying to make was to have the game balanced by letting late game units be strong, but difficult to get to. A game design (example) is a person who rushes BCs will be vulnerable to mid-game, mid-tier units compositions. Balance is skewed when you have some maps like neon violet square that greatly favor terran mech super turtle mode, for example... Also, watch Rouge destroy Classic late game by never letting him get a 5th-6th base up, it's not all sitting back and doing nothing. Anyways, it's hard to defend my point after the team made changes to the game speed with the worker start, meaning there is a much tighter early game.
I see your point and don't mind the concept of strong difficult to get to units but because of the way air units work in sc2 mass air vs air battles tend to be boring snorefests.
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On March 15 2018 02:55 yangluphil wrote:
Pitiful. Might as well disband the dev team and let PMs handle the balance.
User was warned for this post
I was warned for balance whining. Mod read: I'm all for buffing terran in other ways. But ravens as is need to change; you don't have to be a terran hater to see that. It's kind of obvious. Again, this is not about balance in the first place
User was warned for this post.
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Actually moving cannon requirement to gate or core is a great idea.
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On March 17 2018 16:12 insitelol wrote:
Actually moving cannon requirement to gate or core is a great idea.
Wow excellent suggestion.
Really well thought out.
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On March 17 2018 16:22 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2018 16:12 insitelol wrote:
Actually moving cannon requirement to gate or core is a great idea. Wow excellent suggestion. Really well thought out.
Thanks!
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Serral usually tries to drag the game long if he gets ahead, since he is used to being the stronger late game player. He needs to learn the killer mindset to finish his opponent right when he's ahead 'enough'. You don't win vs your equals without taking risks.
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oh sorry wrong thread - nvm
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I think we have a real problem with maru being able to control his high end 200 supply army so damn well. Its so hard but when you can, it is too strong atm because of the raven.
In the last game today serral found some solution in banelings before the bio switch happened.
But i still think that the armor missile needs a nerf.
Maybe down to 20 would already be enough.
But on the other hand maru is the only terran around in the last tournaments who was able to
survive to the quarter finals.
And i know as a high master terran myself, that on the lower end skill level it looks completely different :D.
But well the game has to be balanced based on the top level.
But i have to say, even though i think the missile needs the nerf, the splits of serral were HORRIBLE. i think he didnt split at all but moved a whole control group into one direction.
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On March 17 2018 18:11 SpecKROELLchen wrote:
I think we have a real problem with maru being able to control his high end 200 supply army so damn well. Its so hard but when you can, it is too strong atm because of the raven.
In the last game today serral found some solution in banelings before the bio switch happened.
But i still think that the armor missile needs a nerf.
Maybe down to 20 would already be enough.
But on the other hand maru is the only terran around in the last tournaments who was able to
survive to the quarter finals.
And i know as a high master terran myself, that on the lower end skill level it looks completely different :D.
But well the game has to be balanced based on the top level.
But i have to say, even though i think the missile needs the nerf, the splits of serral were HORRIBLE. i think he didnt split at all but moved a whole control group into one direction.
Is the top level the top 10 players, the top 5 players or the top 1 player?
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On March 17 2018 18:11 SpecKROELLchen wrote:
I think we have a real problem with maru being able to control his high end 200 supply army so damn well. Its so hard but when you can, it is too strong atm because of the raven.
In the last game today serral found some solution in banelings before the bio switch happened.
But i still think that the armor missile needs a nerf.
Maybe down to 20 would already be enough.
But on the other hand maru is the only terran around in the last tournaments who was able to
survive to the quarter finals.
And i know as a high master terran myself, that on the lower end skill level it looks completely different :D.
But well the game has to be balanced based on the top level.
But i have to say, even though i think the missile needs the nerf, the splits of serral were HORRIBLE. i think he didnt split at all but moved a whole control group into one direction.
The problem is that its not possible to split vs AAM just as it was possible vs Seeker Missile. Today's gsmes of Maru shiwed another proof that Anti Armour Missile is ballshit and needs to be toned down.
Also they showed that Terran has very strong lategame, but u have to know how to use it, not whine at forums to buff Terran more.
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On March 17 2018 19:27 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2018 18:11 SpecKROELLchen wrote:
I think we have a real problem with maru being able to control his high end 200 supply army so damn well. Its so hard but when you can, it is too strong atm because of the raven.
In the last game today serral found some solution in banelings before the bio switch happened.
But i still think that the armor missile needs a nerf.
Maybe down to 20 would already be enough.
But on the other hand maru is the only terran around in the last tournaments who was able to
survive to the quarter finals.
And i know as a high master terran myself, that on the lower end skill level it looks completely different :D.
But well the game has to be balanced based on the top level.
But i have to say, even though i think the missile needs the nerf, the splits of serral were HORRIBLE. i think he didnt split at all but moved a whole control group into one direction. The problem is that its not possible to split vs AAM just as it was possible vs Seeker Missile. Today's gsmes of Maru shiwed another proof that Anti Armour Missile is ballshit and needs to be toned down. Also they showed that Terran has very strong lategame, but u have to know how to use it, not whine at forums to buff Terran more.
Actually it looked like serral just got out played, I dont think anyone can say maru won cause of raven missiles.
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On March 17 2018 20:22 WidowMineHero wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2018 19:27 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2018 18:11 SpecKROELLchen wrote:
I think we have a real problem with maru being able to control his high end 200 supply army so damn well. Its so hard but when you can, it is too strong atm because of the raven.
In the last game today serral found some solution in banelings before the bio switch happened.
But i still think that the armor missile needs a nerf.
Maybe down to 20 would already be enough.
But on the other hand maru is the only terran around in the last tournaments who was able to
survive to the quarter finals.
And i know as a high master terran myself, that on the lower end skill level it looks completely different :D.
But well the game has to be balanced based on the top level.
But i have to say, even though i think the missile needs the nerf, the splits of serral were HORRIBLE. i think he didnt split at all but moved a whole control group into one direction. The problem is that its not possible to split vs AAM just as it was possible vs Seeker Missile. Today's gsmes of Maru shiwed another proof that Anti Armour Missile is ballshit and needs to be toned down. Also they showed that Terran has very strong lategame, but u have to know how to use it, not whine at forums to buff Terran more. Actually it looked like serral just got out played, I dont think anyone can say maru won cause of raven missiles.
Maru won because stim researches too quickly. Double stim research time and Maru won't be able to hit such a sharp Bio timing like he did in the last game.
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On March 17 2018 20:22 WidowMineHero wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2018 19:27 hiroshOne wrote:On March 17 2018 18:11 SpecKROELLchen wrote:
I think we have a real problem with maru being able to control his high end 200 supply army so damn well. Its so hard but when you can, it is too strong atm because of the raven.
In the last game today serral found some solution in banelings before the bio switch happened.
But i still think that the armor missile needs a nerf.
Maybe down to 20 would already be enough.
But on the other hand maru is the only terran around in the last tournaments who was able to
survive to the quarter finals.
And i know as a high master terran myself, that on the lower end skill level it looks completely different :D.
But well the game has to be balanced based on the top level.
But i have to say, even though i think the missile needs the nerf, the splits of serral were HORRIBLE. i think he didnt split at all but moved a whole control group into one direction. The problem is that its not possible to split vs AAM just as it was possible vs Seeker Missile. Today's gsmes of Maru shiwed another proof that Anti Armour Missile is ballshit and needs to be toned down. Also they showed that Terran has very strong lategame, but u have to know how to use it, not whine at forums to buff Terran more. Actually it looked like serral just got out played, I dont think anyone can say maru won cause of raven missiles.
That is true.
The first game was really balanced but Maru won because he was better.
And anyway, Zerg players are complaining about mass ravens, but Zergs are doing mass vypers and mass infestors, see the game we are talking about.
The game was ravens/ghosts vs Vypers/infestors.
Maru just outplayed Serral.
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Maru won because stim researches too quickly. Double stim research time and Maru won't be able to hit such a sharp Bio timing like he did in the last game.
While the timing he hit was quite sharp, I dont think that stim research timme needs to be longer. That would make it nigh impossible for terran to be the agressor which terran absolutley has to be against Z.
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And atm all the best terrans : Gumiho, Innovation, Byun, Ty are losing and not doing well in tournaments.
Only Maru is succeeding.
So talking about nerfing ravens because one player is using them well is non sense.
That is good Blizzard backed off with that nerf.
Anyway Serral shew us Zerg can use mass Vipers and Infestors and be as deadly as Ravens in late game.
The game was balanced but Maru played a bit better and also Serral is a foreigner.
In any matchups Koreans are almost better than foreigners.
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Worth noting that Maru rolled Serral even harder when he just made marines and tanks than mass raven. Using that series to prove ravens are op is stupid.
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On March 17 2018 23:22 Fango wrote:
Worth noting that Maru rolled Serral even harder when he just made marines and tanks than mass raven. Using that series to prove ravens are op is stupid.
That's a stupid argument, of course bio will end the game before a mech composition does.
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EPT
