EPTCommunity Feedback Update - March 13 - Page 7
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Twine
France246 Posts
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
On March 14 2018 07:48 Boggyb wrote: In what world is an opponent turtling something that a Zerg player complains about? Just double or even triple expand and murder them with a mid-game push. On paper that makes sense but attacking a turtled terran or protoss with their batteries and siege tanks is retarded. What do you propose I kill them with? | ||
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
On March 16 2018 02:37 Twine wrote: not sure why but everytime I look at a blizzard update (I've stopped following the game tho I'm only looking from time to time) it's basically the "We'd like to slow things down" argument and it seems like it's not efficient at all ahah What, why would you even comment then? If you don't follow? The game is really fast so people saying slow it down is a just fine complaint. mostly a rush to tier three or conversely a push to kill you right before that time. People got sick of WoL because it was a turtle to late game. Now you just get that shit way faster. Like late game can be as quick as 9 minutes depending on how aggressive you play. The tools terran has had before the AAM were mostly the same as WoL only with the addition of the liberators. Against zerg this has been alright because of how ghost liberators is and the fact that snipe hits everything zerg has and one hits it, except for corrupters, lurkers, ultras and queens. I skipped a few but you get the point. Zerg basically has to catch you with your pants down. But if you get caught you are gonna die and horribly. Because it usually isn't close when you lose. Terran are finding it hard because their late game doesn't cut it straight up against protoss. Colossus, storm and carrier is way to much splash and terran before the missile had no way to survive against the double chrono upgrades with those tech options. Zerg shouldn't really complain about the raven corrupters can take on ravens fairly well with parasitic bomb and you just have to chase the ravens and get on top of them, the missle blows their shit up too. At the Super late game like before terrans can dominate but that is much rarer occurence. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
If you do not defend it perfectly you die on the spot. And if you do defend it perfectly (which is hard since they can do so many variations of the cheese like void rays, tempest or warp prism immortals) Protoss are typically ahead in economy. How is that fair? Why should Terran have to fight for their life just not to die on the spot and still come out behind? Blizzard please stop giving Protoss defensive tools since they only result is that they will abuse them for different cheeses. Cheeses are supposed to come with a downside. If they are defended the cheeser should be behind. For some reason this does not apply to Protoss. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
User was warned for this post. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
But come on now, back then the Terrans were just better than anyone else. All 14+ of them in the RO32 for multiple seasons in a row. Some of them had TheBest micro. /s | ||
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Carminedust
487 Posts
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nonoes
24 Posts
I rather see Blizzard do something about cannon rush into proxy shield battery abuse. If you do not defend it perfectly you die on the spot. Do you have any vod ? never seen that before | ||
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reneg
United States859 Posts
On March 16 2018 04:22 MockHamill wrote: I rather see Blizzard do something about cannon rush into proxy shield battery abuse. If you do not defend it perfectly you die on the spot. And if you do defend it perfectly (which is hard since they can do so many variations of the cheese like void rays, tempest or warp prism immortals) Protoss are typically ahead in economy. How is that fair? Why should Terran have to fight for their life just not to die on the spot and still come out behind? Blizzard please stop giving Protoss defensive tools since they only result is that they will abuse them for different cheeses. Cheeses are supposed to come with a downside. If they are defended the cheeser should be behind. For some reason this does not apply to Protoss. Cheese does come with a downside, though? If they invest 750 in cannons and another 400 in shield batteries, they won't really be able to expand (unless they aren't building any units at all) If you hold, you're golden. And shield battery energy gets sucked absolutely dry in no time. I'm not sure what you're looking for with these complaints? Do you want the shield battery to not exist? Do you then expect Protoss to not die to early pushes all the time? Because I feel like that's what would happen, now | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On March 16 2018 06:37 reneg wrote: Cheese does come with a downside, though? If they invest 750 in cannons and another 400 in shield batteries, they won't really be able to expand (unless they aren't building any units at all) If you hold, you're golden. And shield battery energy gets sucked absolutely dry in no time. I'm not sure what you're looking for with these complaints? Do you want the shield battery to not exist? Do you then expect Protoss to not die to early pushes all the time? Because I feel like that's what would happen, now Some people proposed treating shield batteries like pylons in the sense that they would be stronger by the nexus. Specifically, they would start with 0 energy if far away. Something like that would weaken proxy shield battery cheese without affecting the intended purpose. | ||
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reneg
United States859 Posts
On March 16 2018 09:19 pvsnp wrote: Some people proposed treating shield batteries like pylons in the sense that they would be stronger by the nexus. Specifically, they would start with 0 energy if far away. Something like that would weaken proxy shield battery cheese without affecting the intended purpose. Ugh, I'm not a fan of ever increasing complicated rules: the building functions this way, unless it's next to this other building, or a transformed gateway, etc etc. I like the way shield batteries function, one way to tweak them would increase the energy drained per point of shield restored. Make them function the same way, just drain faster. | ||
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WeddingEpisode
United States356 Posts
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franzji
United States583 Posts
This isn't brood war... There's nothing wrong with late game units like carriers and broodlords being strong. The point is that they are weak and the start of the game, you can't go straight for them or you die. You transition into them as you head into the late game. There is nothing wrong with wanting the game to evolve into different unit interactions as the game goes on. Part of the reason mass oracle was so good was because it allowed protoss to transition so fast into mass carrier... | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16006 Posts
On March 17 2018 00:42 youngjiddle wrote: I'm actually so, so sick of people saying that air units are too strong. This isn't brood war... There's nothing wrong with late game units like carriers and broodlords being strong. The point is that they are weak and the start of the game, you can't go straight for them or you die. You transition into them as you head into the late game. There is nothing wrong with wanting the game to evolve into different unit interactions as the game goes on. Part of the reason mass oracle was so good was because it allowed protoss to transition so fast into mass carrier... So you find mass air vs air battles exciting? Lategame stalemates a la Neeb vs Rogue is what you want to see in SC2? You're actually the first person I've seen arguing in favor of mass air vs air stalemates being the dominant strategy in lategame | ||
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starkiller123
United States4030 Posts
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Aiobhill
Germany283 Posts
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xongnox
540 Posts
Actually the only fun mass air play from a viewer perspective is with mobile fast and non-deathball units, like mass mutas/phenix/speedshee/oracles. (still, it generally transition into deathaball mass air ) On March 16 2018 04:22 MockHamill wrote: I rather see Blizzard do something about cannon rush into proxy shield battery abuse. If you do not defend it perfectly you die on the spot. And if you do defend it perfectly (which is hard since they can do so many variations of the cheese like void rays, tempest or warp prism immortals) Protoss are typically ahead in economy. How is that fair? Why should Terran have to fight for their life just not to die on the spot and still come out behind? Blizzard please stop giving Protoss defensive tools since they only result is that they will abuse them for different cheeses. Cheeses are supposed to come with a downside. If they are defended the cheeser should be behind. For some reason this does not apply to Protoss. I'm all for addressing 2 toss rushs: photonrush and shield/VR abuse. PhotonRush is actually super duper strong in PvP, and probably imba on some maps. Just watch CripSeil wining vs pros with it (and everyone know CripSeil photonush 100% of the time, yet most P pro usually loose). Protoss don't need super early photons to defend nowdays, so we could make the cyber (or gate?) required to build the forge. Only delete cancer play. Then i'm all for making shield battery don't work with air units. 2in1 : nerfing proxy VR abuse and turtle air nonsens at the same time. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16006 Posts
On March 17 2018 02:51 Aiobhill wrote: Can't get rid of or marginalize mass air without normalising static defense. Check how much the three races spend on static defense per game on average. Check how much the three races gain in damage from static defense per game on average. Balance that - either before or at the same time you look at mass air. I don't get at all what you want to say | ||
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franzji
United States583 Posts
On March 17 2018 02:00 Charoisaur wrote: So you find mass air vs air battles exciting? Lategame stalemates a la Neeb vs Rogue is what you want to see in SC2? You're actually the first person I've seen arguing in favor of mass air vs air stalemates being the dominant strategy in lategame The point I was trying to make was to have the game balanced by letting late game units be strong, but difficult to get to. A game design (example) is a person who rushes BCs will be vulnerable to mid-game, mid-tier units compositions. Balance is skewed when you have some maps like neon violet square that greatly favor terran mech super turtle mode, for example... Also, watch Rouge destroy Classic late game by never letting him get a 5th-6th base up, it's not all sitting back and doing nothing. Anyways, it's hard to defend my point after the team made changes to the game speed with the worker start, meaning there is a much tighter early game. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On March 17 2018 02:53 xongnox wrote: PhotonRush is actually super duper strong in PvP, and probably imba on some maps. Just watch CripSeil wining vs pros with it (and everyone know CripSeil photonush 100% of the time, yet most P pro usually loose). Protoss don't need super early photons to defend nowdays, so we could make the cyber (or gate?) required to build the forge. Only delete cancer play. Please don't do that. It shuts down an entire set of potential openings. Forge first may not be in style in PvZ right now, but it needs to be a possibility to stop Zergs from playing crazy greedy. Without the threat of cannons, Zerg could double hatch before pool every game safely. Both cannon rushes and proxy stargate/shield battery stuff can be stopped with scouting and appropriate preparation/reaction. In the past, if there has been a spot on a map that has shown to be too good for cannon rushing, it has usually been fixed. There have been very few cases of that ever happening because usually. Shield battery rushes are no different than Protoss facing bunker-based all-ins. If you scout them and know what's happening, they are possible to stop, but if you don't scout them until after the bunkers are built, things become much more difficult to handle. | ||
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