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Community Feedback Update - March 13 - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
235 CommentsPost a Reply
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neverexpand
Profile Joined March 2018
16 Posts
March 14 2018 05:05 GMT
#61
On March 14 2018 13:35 pvsnp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2018 13:24 neverexpand wrote:
On March 14 2018 11:08 pvsnp wrote:
On March 14 2018 10:23 neverexpand wrote:
Good, the fewer things they change the better. The current version should be the permanent version, at least as far as balance is concerned. I cannot understand the desire to continue patching.

Even if balance was absolutely perfect in all matchups (and it never will be), there are still design changes which of course alter balance.

The only constant is change.

I don't buy that. Last BW patch was in 2001, a few years after the game release. We're over seven years deep now and Blizzard can't stop fiddling. It's shameful.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/157178-the-myth-of-a-long-patch-history-in-scbw

BW balance:


The only difference is that SC2 balance issues are directly addressed by the balance team, for better or worse.

Right, and that's how it should be by now. We'd get a stable game and more interesting maps. The poorly kept secret is that Blizzard keeps rebalancing the game around their own map pools.
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
March 14 2018 05:20 GMT
#62
On March 14 2018 14:05 neverexpand wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2018 13:35 pvsnp wrote:
On March 14 2018 13:24 neverexpand wrote:
On March 14 2018 11:08 pvsnp wrote:
On March 14 2018 10:23 neverexpand wrote:
Good, the fewer things they change the better. The current version should be the permanent version, at least as far as balance is concerned. I cannot understand the desire to continue patching.

Even if balance was absolutely perfect in all matchups (and it never will be), there are still design changes which of course alter balance.

The only constant is change.

I don't buy that. Last BW patch was in 2001, a few years after the game release. We're over seven years deep now and Blizzard can't stop fiddling. It's shameful.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/157178-the-myth-of-a-long-patch-history-in-scbw

BW balance: https://clips.twitch.tv/SeductiveHappyFrogPoooound

The only difference is that SC2 balance issues are directly addressed by the balance team, for better or worse.

Right, and that's how it should be by now. We'd get a stable game and more interesting maps. The poorly kept secret is that Blizzard keeps rebalancing the game around their own map pools.

Maybe. But maybe we'd still be in GomTvT.

Hard to say.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
Tyrhanius
Profile Joined April 2011
France947 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-14 07:43:54
March 14 2018 07:18 GMT
#63
On March 14 2018 11:32 xongnox wrote:
I'm kinda agnostic on the dropverlord change, but hearing toss players screaming about an "unscoutable tricky" all-in is delicious

I feel like the real issues in early Z all-ins is queens, either coming by drop or nydus. Queens are incredibly strong early game, with some transfuses they are the best early game units for price. It's balanced by being a very slow and defensive unit... until invincible nydus or un-killable transfused drop bring them to your base.

So if i were in charge of balance i would let the T1 drop but nerf the queens drop cargo and the invincible nydus. Invincible nydus leads to "incredible" play like at IEM, with the in-your-face beetween-your-gates play, witch has no counter-play at all (except blindly going for a counter BO, lol).
Every mechanism totally breaking defender advantage early-game should have clear weakness and counter-play, else it is logically OP.


The most incredible is how zergs players abuse so little of theses powerful earlygame plays. (on ladder and in pro games). When T/P have early-game OP shit, they abuse it so much and so good in no time .... so it get nerfed fast.


Nyndus is just too expensive not to be used as all-in. 300gas just for 1 worm !
In the man time protoss can warp everywhere for 200mineral and recall for free.

And yeah you are again of those asking for deleting one of the rare agressive options of zerg... Like zerg should be stuck to only defend the first 6-7mins.
insitelol
Profile Joined August 2012
845 Posts
March 14 2018 08:02 GMT
#64
Ok how about this:
- leave drops as they are but
- increase queen cargo size to 2 max for 1 dropalord.
- remove Nydus invincibility but increase its armour to 3 (to prevent pure worker kills)
- reduce hallucinations cost to 75 to allow faster scouts for protoss. That would diversify protoss openings.
Less is more.
seemsgood
Profile Joined January 2016
5527 Posts
March 14 2018 09:08 GMT
#65
Thanks arceus they did listen to us.I think the raven nerf needs to be done regardless.
I don't want to mass raven in order to fight mass air.But i also don't want to mass vikings in order to fight mass air either.
bObA
Profile Joined May 2012
France300 Posts
March 14 2018 09:14 GMT
#66
That is totally unfair to say terran players are whiners, both zerg and protoss got some changes and terrans have to handle with this for months.
I remember for example the first time we saw oracles, terrans said that was unbalanced, and that was for many many weeks and then we found a way.
I could give you tons of examples like this.

And in the opposite side they nerfed reapers because unbalanced, when only Byun knew how to use them.

So now I really appreciate Blizzard team doesn't removev an upgrade they have just added in the game.
And with the latest results, that clearly doesn't show that is unbalanced, terrans lost in every single major tournaments, and the only one who knows to use this well, Maru, lost at IEM and is in semi final of Gsl.

kajtarp
Profile Joined April 2011
Hungary487 Posts
March 14 2018 09:42 GMT
#67
So did i understand right, they are keeping the Droperlord nerf, while they leave AA missile as it is ? How is that fair for zergs?
Why so serious?
SCHWARZENEGGER
Profile Joined July 2016
206 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-14 09:51:55
March 14 2018 09:51 GMT
#68
On March 14 2018 18:42 kajtarp wrote:
So did i understand right, they are keeping the Droperlord nerf, while they leave AA missile as it is ? How is that fair for zergs?


you wanna say that AA missile is auto win vs zerg?
WaesumNinja
Profile Joined February 2012
210 Posts
March 14 2018 10:01 GMT
#69
On March 14 2018 17:02 insitelol wrote:
Ok how about this:
- leave drops as they are but
- increase queen cargo size to 2 max for 1 dropalord.
- remove Nydus invincibility but increase its armour to 3 (to prevent pure worker kills)
- reduce hallucinations cost to 75 to allow faster scouts for protoss. That would diversify protoss openings.


I agree. Don't nerf drops, buff protoss early game scouting instead. Maybe it would make alternatives to SG openings more popular as well.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany16061 Posts
March 14 2018 10:09 GMT
#70
On March 14 2018 18:42 kajtarp wrote:
So did i understand right, they are keeping the Droperlord nerf, while they leave AA missile as it is ? How is that fair for zergs?

Look how Zergs are performing currently and how terrans are performing, then you will understand
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
EESCLuna
Profile Joined February 2017
Spain53 Posts
March 14 2018 10:15 GMT
#71
The main problem since LOTV realase is the zerg multiple ways to be agressive on early. Each one has his own counter and with little to no damage a zerg player can macro it after the agression so.

Make zerg allins more risky on the economical side and i think protosses will be ok to the midgame.
Balance means nerf Protoss
kajtarp
Profile Joined April 2011
Hungary487 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-14 11:10:51
March 14 2018 10:52 GMT
#72
On March 14 2018 19:09 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2018 18:42 kajtarp wrote:
So did i understand right, they are keeping the Droperlord nerf, while they leave AA missile as it is ? How is that fair for zergs?

Look how Zergs are performing currently and how terrans are performing, then you will understand


No i won't. Seeker missiles were always like a cancer to watch, and the AA missile is not much different so i agree with Blizzard here. It's sad they got afraid because terrans cried a river. Maru is just doing fine. TY in his usual slump he has every year at least once, and Innovation got overconfident (you could see he was 100% sure he will roflstomp his GSL group and didn't really put much effort). None of this is balance issue.
Why so serious?
LRObot
Profile Joined April 2011
United States153 Posts
March 14 2018 11:18 GMT
#73
Zerg logic: Win 7 tournaments in a row. No Terran in the finals for any of them. Balance is fine. Terran deserves nerfs but Zerg doesn't.
Never say die
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-14 11:35:27
March 14 2018 11:30 GMT
#74
On March 14 2018 20:18 LRObot wrote:
Zerg logic: Win 7 tournaments in a row. No Terran in the finals for any of them. Balance is fine. Terran deserves nerfs but Zerg doesn't.


Exactly this.

When Terran start to dominate all tournaments like Zerg does now then I agree that Raven much be changed. Until that happens Ravens are perfectly fine.

If pro players can not manage to dominate tournaments with something then it is balanced by defination. If Ravens were too strong we would see it in tournament results.

DieuCure
Profile Joined January 2017
France3713 Posts
March 14 2018 11:58 GMT
#75
By "dominant" you mean Maru and TY
TL+ Member
kajtarp
Profile Joined April 2011
Hungary487 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-14 12:29:38
March 14 2018 12:02 GMT
#76
First, im not Zerg, second i hate Mass Raven play since forever. Maru almost 3-0'd Rogue and if he doesnt choke after 2-0 we wouldn't even talk about this. Plus he has every chance to make GSL Finals and win the whole thing. What 7 tournaments in a row? Last year GSL was won by Protoss, Terran, Terran. SSL Terran, Protoss. Rogue won some weekend tournaments and Blizzcon. You count Serral victory as balance issue while foreign scene does not have one good Terran player maybe except Special (who is/was always a bit overrated imho) ?

As i see currently each race has some good players, (Inno Maru TY alive, Stats Classic hero sOs, Rogue Dark soO Solar) and whoever is in good shape goes into the final stages of tournaments.
Why so serious?
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
March 14 2018 12:24 GMT
#77
On March 14 2018 05:36 Freeborn wrote:
Terran whine is too sour even for the dev team to stomach...

A bit pathetic.

It's pretty sure that the nerf will come a bit later though, since it's just bad design and as they emphasized AGAIN it's supposed to be a fricking SUPPORT not mass damage dealer.

But okay let's appease the vulgar terran crybaby masses...

the hilarious thing is that 95% of those who cried about the announced mass-raven lategame nerf dont actually play that style, cuz it s too hard to take that many bases and tech up that much.
But based on principle, that they hysterically oppose any nerf because it actually f-in works, they ve done it.
Unless you re at GM level, you re not seeing mass raven lategame, period. Im Masters with zergs, and seen mass ravens on ladder maybe once.
This would have been a change that affects the tournaments, and I for one, dont cherish the ideas that Terran are incentivized to turtle and mass ravens/raven energy.
Until now it wasnt so popular, maybe terrans considered it a waste of practice-time, since the announcement of the nerf came out, but i think we re gonna see a lot of mass ravens by high level pro Terrans.

For the record, I also dislike the mass spore+mass infestor style that dominates the ZvP meta right now.

Gonna offrace more after the drop nerf is implemented, that s for sure.
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Aiobhill
Profile Joined June 2013
Germany283 Posts
March 14 2018 12:42 GMT
#78
On March 14 2018 21:24 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2018 05:36 Freeborn wrote:
Terran whine is too sour even for the dev team to stomach...

A bit pathetic.

It's pretty sure that the nerf will come a bit later though, since it's just bad design and as they emphasized AGAIN it's supposed to be a fricking SUPPORT not mass damage dealer.

But okay let's appease the vulgar terran crybaby masses...

the hilarious thing is that 95% of those who cried about the announced mass-raven lategame nerf dont actually play that style, cuz it s too hard to take that many bases and tech up that much.


To add more highly unscientific numbers, 90% of forum dwellers are unaffected by balance decisions and they aren't targeted by balance decisions. But many people are viewers as well and mass Raven bullshit is unwatcherablererererer than BL/Infestor. Even if it doesn't affect you as a player, viewing 'unbalanced' is a possibly even bigger turn-off.
Axslav - apm70maphacks - tak3r
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
March 14 2018 13:16 GMT
#79
On March 14 2018 21:42 Aiobhill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2018 21:24 Geo.Rion wrote:
On March 14 2018 05:36 Freeborn wrote:
Terran whine is too sour even for the dev team to stomach...

A bit pathetic.

It's pretty sure that the nerf will come a bit later though, since it's just bad design and as they emphasized AGAIN it's supposed to be a fricking SUPPORT not mass damage dealer.

But okay let's appease the vulgar terran crybaby masses...

the hilarious thing is that 95% of those who cried about the announced mass-raven lategame nerf dont actually play that style, cuz it s too hard to take that many bases and tech up that much.


To add more highly unscientific numbers, 90% of forum dwellers are unaffected by balance decisions and they aren't targeted by balance decisions. But many people are viewers as well and mass Raven bullshit is unwatcherablererererer than BL/Infestor. Even if it doesn't affect you as a player, viewing 'unbalanced' is a possibly even bigger turn-off.

yes, that s kinda what i said with the second part of my post.

But i dont think you re right with the player base being unaffected by most balance changes. If a change is targeted to address cheese-strats/ allins, then it most definitely affects the common players, as low Master and plat-dia players (which is the majority of active ladder players) cuz at this level you re either at that rank because u know how to allin or how to defend allins.

Ultra lategame/ mechanical changes dont affect most of them/most of us.

"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
TW
Profile Joined March 2012
Poland255 Posts
March 14 2018 13:25 GMT
#80
So when is the patch going live? Post or pre GSL?
Seems like this can have major impact on Stats vs Soo.
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