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On March 14 2018 07:48 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 04:27 Vutalisk wrote: Of course BZ will do anything to make sure Z will never win anything ever again after a single Z AKA Rogue managed to win BC and IEM back to back. God forbids soO is gonna win GSL and they will nerf Z back to stone age. Without overlord drop, the P and T just wall off and turtle up for days then go for greed. That will encourage "variety of builds" for sure. P goes stargate these days not just for defensive purposes but also before of map control. Don't just blame that on overlord drop. In what world is an opponent turtling something that a Zerg player complains about? Just double or even triple expand and murder them with a mid-game push. Yeah the problem is you just drone until reaching 66 or even 82 drones, and then you start playing the game, after 6-7min of "warmup".
And it's boring. T and P can attack with a few units without all-inning, Zerg can't and just drone and defend...
Terran is impossible to attack before hive tech if you're not all-in.
ZvP was the rare MU where you can play agressive (outside ZvZ, and even on Z vs Z defending is usually the best choice) and you felt the swarm.
Zerg wasn't supposed to be "I keep droning and defending", but it's exactly like that since WOL.
ZvT, wasn't it supposed to be a swarm of zerg attacking the humans ? Why it was always the opposite ?
The most common question on Zerg strategy/guide ? - How can i play agressive as Zerg without being all-in ? -.... you can't sorry...maybe drop play... oh wait...
The ZvT is already a really stupid defend only game : -Deal with reaper harass -deal with hellions harass -deal with liberatoir/banshee/drops harass. -deal with tank push.
-vipers/broodlords are ready, i CAN ATTACK. - Oh no RAVEN, ghost/liberators, need to camp under my spores. and mass infestors/vipers and search 3/3 air and slowly trade for hours...
Just want a fun game, not a "defend for hours challenge" like ZvT, so if they keep removing the rare thing that has given a fresh air for Zerg like drops, that would be nice.
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On March 14 2018 08:22 Tyrhanius wrote: Just want a fun game, not a "defend for hours challenge" like ZvT, so if they keep removing the rare thing that has given a fresh air for Zerg like drops, that would be nice. Then I would suggest you try a different race. When Terran and Protoss HAVE to play aggressive versus Zerg or they functionally auto lose, Zerg cannot reasonably have the option of being aggressive as well.
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On March 14 2018 07:30 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 07:08 ReachTheSky wrote:On March 14 2018 05:36 Freeborn wrote: Terran whine is too sour even for the dev team to stomach...
A bit pathetic.
It's pretty sure that the nerf will come a bit later though, since it's just bad design and as they emphasized AGAIN it's supposed to be a fricking SUPPORT not mass damage dealer.
But okay let's appease the vulgar terran crybaby masses... Why is it ok for zerg and protoss to have insane AOE damage spellcasters but not terran(even though 1 raven missile only tickles, but 1 storm or parasitic bomb will deal 95% of most units' hp)? The double standard needs to stop. On a side note, It would be nice if blizzard reduced the research time for blue flame from 79 seconds to 60 seconds as well as reducing the cost from 150/150 minerals/gas to 100/100 minerals/gas. I think this would be a nice change that would provide terran with some more variety when sculpting builds as well as make for some exciting early/mid game plays from a spectator perspective. The research time and cost feels too long/expensive in comparison to the added bonus blue flame gives since they nerfed the damage of it awhile back. I think the damage it does is balanced, just lower the research time and cost. I just wonder when and where did u saw that one funghal is takin all the hp from units besides marines or lings? Try to kill Liberators or Carriers or Broodlords with funghals. U just can't. But guess what can- Ravens.
I'm not talking about fungal, i'm referring to parasitic bomb. I'm glad you brought it up though, zerg has two AOE casters while terran and protoss have 1.
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On March 14 2018 08:22 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 07:48 Boggyb wrote:On March 14 2018 04:27 Vutalisk wrote: Of course BZ will do anything to make sure Z will never win anything ever again after a single Z AKA Rogue managed to win BC and IEM back to back. God forbids soO is gonna win GSL and they will nerf Z back to stone age. Without overlord drop, the P and T just wall off and turtle up for days then go for greed. That will encourage "variety of builds" for sure. P goes stargate these days not just for defensive purposes but also before of map control. Don't just blame that on overlord drop. In what world is an opponent turtling something that a Zerg player complains about? Just double or even triple expand and murder them with a mid-game push. Yeah the problem is you just drone until reaching 66 or even 82 drones, and then you start playing the game, after 6-7min of "warmup". And it's boring. T and P can attack with a few units without all-inning, Zerg can't and just drone and defend... Terran is impossible to attack before hive tech if you're not all-in. ZvP was the rare MU where you can play agressive (outside ZvZ, and even on Z vs Z defending is usually the best choice) and you felt the swarm. Zerg wasn't supposed to be "I keep droning and defending", but it's exactly like that since WOL. ZvT, wasn't it supposed to be a swarm of zerg attacking the humans ? Why it was always the opposite ? The most common question on Zerg strategy/guide ? - How can i play agressive as Zerg without being all-in ? -.... you can't sorry...maybe drop play... oh wait... The ZvT is already a really stupid defend only game : -Deal with reaper harass -deal with hellions harass -deal with liberatoir/banshee/drops harass. -deal with tank push. -vipers/broodlords are ready, i CAN ATTACK. - Oh no RAVEN, ghost/liberators, need to camp under my spores. and mass infestors/vipers and search 3/3 air and slowly trade for hours... Just want a fun game, not a "defend for hours challenge" like ZvT, so if they keep removing the rare thing that has given a fresh air for Zerg like drops, that would be nice.
What you say it true (to an extent). But at the same time a terran player could complain about how shit it is trying to turtle/defend until an ultimate tech is reached. In TvZ the terran is the one who needs to play aggressive and do as much damage as possible before zerg gets that ultimate tier 3 army. If the terran tries to play defensive all game long they'll usually lose.
If you really want to play aggressive instead of reactive/defensive then don't play zerg, aka the reactive race....
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I was hoping the Raven nerf would go through. Its a band aid solution to terrans non existent late game. Terran needs a true and deeper late game fix. Still I quite enjoy seeing crybabies unironically whine about other supposed crybabies that resulted from blizzard backtracking.
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I was really looking forward to not instaquitting against T as well...
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I cant comment much on higher level pvz balance but at least in my scrub experience in d1-m3 with protoss and zerg the most aggravating aspect of the match up is zergling drops after the patch that removed ms core. With the current state of protoss this build is both difficult to anticipate in time and difficult to stop even when you know its coming, unless you already have all the units required to stop it. This means that the best way to hold this build is for protoss to hard counter it with something like oracles, and that creates a really conflippy element to zvp that is less prominent in all other match ups currently (now that prxoy oracle no longer hits at 3 minutes). Protoss has to from the outset of the game gamble around if there opponent will do exactly one build, because the effective responses to this build are very limited compared to any other strategy zerg has. If zerg does do the one build and protoss gambled incorrectly they will lose the game on the spot. But if zerg did not do the one build than alot more oprions are available to protoss, I think that for balance sake its important that allins limit potential openings from an opponent but when the threat of an allin reduces the viable openings to just one ore two builds something is probably wrong with the match up.
Generally in starcraft 2's history incredibly early hitting allins that have very few reasonable responses get nerfed or alternative answers are buffed for example to name a few: Wol proxy rax, 4 gate, pylon block,1-1-1,wol blue flame hellions,hots release hellbats, blink stalker allin, 16 marine drop (queen buff),5 rax reaper allin, 3 minute proxy oracle. There's alot of precedent for blizzard nerfing these kind of builds when they are perceived to be to strong, notably zerg has not really had large nerfs to early game builds except back in beta when roaches were broken and a few tweeks to ravagers. That's mostly because up until the current patch zerg has never really had an early game build that was overly imbalanced (except maybe roach ravager rush on some of the very small maps in the first lotv map pool).So far most zerg imbalances have been centered around the late game( bl infestor, swarmhosts,8 armor ultras) or the midgame( wol mass mutas, hydra bane) This doesn't mean that if zerg does now have an overly strong early game build it should not be looked at.
I think that this is a good quality of life change for the zvp match up.A fter a few months after the removal of msc we have all had a chance to see that this build is a bit to meta game defining. Hopefully it does not impact overall match up balance to heavily, and if it does I hope that blizzard will quickly compensate zerg in other areas. I think that sometimes when blizzard has nerfed early game pressure of a race without adequate mid or late game compensation it has left that race in an under powered state for instance when they nerfed the 5 rax reaper build without giving terran any meaningful changes that enabled bio to function well without this kind of early game shenanigan it left terran in a weekend state vs zerg. Over time blizzard has been altering terran to account for this problem but it took awhile. Hopefully if zerg is in a terrible state (I don't think they will be) than blizzard will re balance the match up around less coinflippy strategies.
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ghost-raven-bio-liberator is super strong and people are now noticing it, it will stay strong without the 25 extra damage. Emp + anti-armor is insane vs toss. not to mention anti armor is so easy to use and is undodgeable.
the nerf helps, but terran late game is going to stay good for players who know how to play imo...
also it's about time they fix overlord drops.
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On March 14 2018 08:06 MrWayne wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 07:19 ihatevideogames wrote: Patching the Raven out of the game and removing all Terran chances in the lategame by extension because of a single tournament that the Raven wasn't even played that much in is a huge stretch, no matter how you spin it.
you got the price for so far the biggest exaggeration. TvZ lategame was totally winnable without the raven and no not only TY and Maru where able to pull that off. Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 07:19 ihatevideogames wrote: Yeah, current Raven is bullshit, but untill they come up with a real solution to Terran lategame, it needs to stay. inb4 toss and zergs dare to complain, may I to remind you: Broken Adepts in the game for months before being patched. 15 range 4 supply Tempests making lategame even more of a joke than it is now, in the game for over a year. 8 armor Ultras in the game for over a fucking year. Liberator anti-air patched after 1 tournament, literally lasted for 2 weeks. AAM was about to be patched after 1 tournament where it was used in 2-3 games. This is such a childish attitude. *REEEE your BS was so much longer in the Game, that's unfair!!!11* In 80% of my games i play as Terran and i don't want to rely on AAM spam to win a game vs Protoss so hopefully blizzard will nerf the Raven as soon as possible and obviously buff Terran accordingly. When i want to play with a huge dethball of spellcasters and airunits I switch to Protoss or Zerg, i don't need a third race with the same mechanic,I like Terran because the race is so different in this aspect. If you're only interested in your Win rates and MMR and not in fun and diverse gameplay, please go ahead and use some hacks, I heard Beasty's Red-Dot-hack is pretty good.  I care so much about my MMR that I insta-leave every TvP I get because I simply find the matchup unfun af to play. Yes, the Raven is BS, but it's also Terran's only chance in the lategame. I just pinted out that every time Terran had a lategame that worked it got nerfed immediately, while for Z/P it was always 'let the meta settle', 'let the playerbase come up with ways to deal with it', etc etc.
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On March 14 2018 08:48 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 08:22 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 14 2018 07:48 Boggyb wrote:On March 14 2018 04:27 Vutalisk wrote: Of course BZ will do anything to make sure Z will never win anything ever again after a single Z AKA Rogue managed to win BC and IEM back to back. God forbids soO is gonna win GSL and they will nerf Z back to stone age. Without overlord drop, the P and T just wall off and turtle up for days then go for greed. That will encourage "variety of builds" for sure. P goes stargate these days not just for defensive purposes but also before of map control. Don't just blame that on overlord drop. In what world is an opponent turtling something that a Zerg player complains about? Just double or even triple expand and murder them with a mid-game push. Yeah the problem is you just drone until reaching 66 or even 82 drones, and then you start playing the game, after 6-7min of "warmup". And it's boring. T and P can attack with a few units without all-inning, Zerg can't and just drone and defend... Terran is impossible to attack before hive tech if you're not all-in. ZvP was the rare MU where you can play agressive (outside ZvZ, and even on Z vs Z defending is usually the best choice) and you felt the swarm. Zerg wasn't supposed to be "I keep droning and defending", but it's exactly like that since WOL. ZvT, wasn't it supposed to be a swarm of zerg attacking the humans ? Why it was always the opposite ? The most common question on Zerg strategy/guide ? - How can i play agressive as Zerg without being all-in ? -.... you can't sorry...maybe drop play... oh wait... The ZvT is already a really stupid defend only game : -Deal with reaper harass -deal with hellions harass -deal with liberatoir/banshee/drops harass. -deal with tank push. -vipers/broodlords are ready, i CAN ATTACK. - Oh no RAVEN, ghost/liberators, need to camp under my spores. and mass infestors/vipers and search 3/3 air and slowly trade for hours... Just want a fun game, not a "defend for hours challenge" like ZvT, so if they keep removing the rare thing that has given a fresh air for Zerg like drops, that would be nice. What you say it true (to an extent). But at the same time a terran player could complain about how shit it is trying to turtle/defend until an ultimate tech is reached. In TvZ the terran is the one who needs to play aggressive and do as much damage as possible before zerg gets that ultimate tier 3 army. If the terran tries to play defensive all game long they'll usually lose. If you really want to play aggressive instead of reactive/defensive then don't play zerg, aka the reactive race....
in an ideal world it would be the style you chose to approach a matchup with rather than the race you pick that would determine if you or your opponent would be the deffender/agresor however in sc 2 rarely if ever has this been the case except in mirror match ups.
Generally when a race has very viable turtle strategies and very viable aggressive strategies blizzard has nerfed them because having a whole package range of approaches to the game is usually cause by imbalance. It may be that we just have to accept that this is the case for the tvz matchup forever. zerg defends terran pressures, when the meta is ballanced both can reach late game on even footing if terran has done decent dmg to zerg otherwise zerg will reach the late game ahead. When the meta is imbalanced either terran is unable to attacke and is forced into teching into an inferior late game, zerg cant reach the late game because terran is 65% of the time killing them before they do, or terran can play a totaly defensive style and reach a superior late game to zerg without putting on any kind of pressure. Idealy the matchup would function more along the lines that either race could play for the superior late game, the superior midgame, or the superior early game depending on what kind of strategy they pursued and if each player went for a period of strength at the same timing there armies would be close in strength to one another unless one had macroed, microed, pressured, or ourwitted there opponent in a superior fashion. However givin sc2's asymetrical balance I don't think this is a likely outcome. Since zerg has the larva mechanic they will always have to choose between units and economy, since they have to chose between units and economy its difficult for them to try to pump out alot of aggression while at the same time committing to the macro game. Generally when zerg has been able to do this the match up has been fairly unfair. Larva is a unique and interesting mechanic that has an opportunity cost that's not realy present in any other rts I've played to the same extent,but it also is the chief offending mechanic for why we get the pattern of:
1. zerg either turles and drones or does an allin 2. Terran either allins( depending on if they have a decent one), turtles into mech (if they have a strong timing or op late game or if they cant dmg zerg becuase zerg has an op midgame), or Terran pressures in the mid game with bio 3. Terran either does a big timing or transitions to some kind of gimiky sky army if its viable 4. zerg techs to there current strongest meta late game comp and either absolutely crushes terran, plays a super long turtle game vs them, or gets crushed by a raven death ball, depending on the current state of balance.
We have seen several periods where blizzard has been able to balance one path through these options such that tvz was a well balanced match up. I cant think of a time when blizzard has been able to break this pattern and create a radically new pattern to the tvz match up outside what ive listed. I think that for the most part when bliz has changed the tvz mu its been because one race had to much of an advantage within the current predictable pattern rather than trying to break the way the match up has always functioned.
Personally I think the best state the match up was ever in was in HOTS when blizzard managed to make it so that zerg had trouble reaching hive safety and terran had to stop zerg from reaching hive leading to an extended midgame where terran attacked and zerg defended. This was probably the best state tvz has been in and since hots we have not been able to get back to it because LOTV mid game is more compressed and zerg is able to get to hive significantly faster. The matchup was still highly formulaic in terms of strategy but at least it felt like skill was the primary relevant factor and balance was in the back seat, pre widow mine nerf it was a bit Terran favored, post mine nerf a bit zerg favored, but overall the matchup was fairly healthy and fun.
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On March 14 2018 06:21 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 04:44 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 14 2018 04:41 hiroshOne wrote: They should not nerf droperlords. Just buff Protoss early game scouting options, as not defending droperlords is the oroblem but scouting this strategy without Stargate opening. I proposed earlier lowering the energy cost of hallucination from sentry. That way, Protoss could choose not to build Stargate, but go for example robo or sth different than Stargate. This proposal would improve Protoss openings, scouting and not limit options for Zerg.
Raven nerf will come, sooner or later, as it's cancer unit in its current form. If u all need more games to see it, so be it. But the nerf is unavoidable imo. Is it possible to hold a 16 ling drop while opening robo even if you scout it early? It's not just a scouting problem. As you tried 2 SB per bases ? I mean it's 400mineral like 16lings, i've never tried it so feel free to explain me why it doesn't work if you have already tried it, but i feel like with your probes healed by SB + a few units it's holdable. As zerg i build spores sometimes blindly, and a spores are more expensive than SB, i see toss complaining about the all-in but they usually play without SB. Sure aligulac stats show imbalance but at kor level ZvP is pretty close of 50% and just recently Stats 2-0 Rogue. Aligulac is biased and overrates EU on Zerg, and then you have : Serral best player of the world or that is supposed to beat classic 3-2 while he has lost 3-0. Expecting Protoss to have two shield batteries at each base early on for one specific attack that may or may not happen but is more or less unscoutable until it is already too late is not a good way to do to go about balancing the game.
Zerg having to make a spore crawler is not even remotely comparable to the idea of Protoss being required to have 2 shield batteries. Spore crawlers provide a lot more utility. They shut down Stargate-based harass, Dark Templars, and they limit the effectiveness of observer scouting, allowing Zerg to be relatively safe from a variety of different Protoss attacks. Shield batteries do none of that and are only situationally useful. They have a slow build time so it isn't like you can't build them as a reaction to being dropped. The damage will be done by the time they finish building.
I've played this game for a long time, I've been through all the different eras of "Here's a specific build that requires few resources to build and has a disproportionate cost to defend against". In every single case, those builds have been nerfed (A good example are hellbat drops from when HOTS first came out or the 1/1/1 in Wings of Liberty). Pre-Lair zergling drops feel like one of those things. Anything less than a perfect defense and Protoss is automatically behind, but since Protoss can't scout it, they either have to blindly prepare for it and be behind against everything else, or not prepare and lose in the case the drops are done.
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I feel like people are too eager to jump the gun on Blizzard.
Theres was no way, NO WAY IN HELL, that they would've gone for a patch before GSL finals, specially not new team, last community update was that A COMMUNITY UPDATE NOT A PATCH,and very rarely they go with a change before a few of these at least.
THEY ARE GOING TO NERF THE RAVEN, that much its obvious, they are simply treading slowly, note the fact that even if they mentioned the drop overlord nerf staying, its still not patched as of today.
They are taking their time, that is all, nothing new, so stop acting like the world is going to end.
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On March 14 2018 09:48 Lexender wrote: I feel like people are too eager to jump the gun on Blizzard.
Theres was no way, NO WAY IN HELL, that they would've gone for a patch before GSL finals, specially not new team, last community update was that A COMMUNITY UPDATE NOT A PATCH,and very rarely they go with a change before a few of these at least.
THEY ARE GOING TO NERF THE RAVEN, that much its obvious, they are simply treading slowly, note the fact that even if they mentioned the drop overlord nerf staying, its still not patched as of today.
They are taking their time, that is all, nothing new, so stop acting like the world is going to end.
they should have just said they would patch the game after wesg/gsl instead of this word play they are doing.
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Good, the fewer things they change the better. The current version should be the permanent version, at least as far as balance is concerned. I cannot understand the desire to continue patching.
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I just hope they can change the appearance of the raven missile effect, the orange units makes the big battles hard to follow. With the timer on top now maybe they don't need to be orange too.
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On March 14 2018 10:23 neverexpand wrote: Good, the fewer things they change the better. The current version should be the permanent version, at least as far as balance is concerned. I cannot understand the desire to continue patching. Even if balance was absolutely perfect in all matchups (and it never will be), there are still design changes which of course alter balance.
The only constant is change.
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I'm kinda agnostic on the dropverlord change, but hearing toss players screaming about an "unscoutable tricky" all-in is delicious 
I feel like the real issues in early Z all-ins is queens, either coming by drop or nydus. Queens are incredibly strong early game, with some transfuses they are the best early game units for price. It's balanced by being a very slow and defensive unit... until invincible nydus or un-killable transfused drop bring them to your base.
So if i were in charge of balance i would let the T1 drop but nerf the queens drop cargo and the invincible nydus. Invincible nydus leads to "incredible" play like at IEM, with the in-your-face beetween-your-gates play, witch has no counter-play at all (except blindly going for a counter BO, lol). Every mechanism totally breaking defender advantage early-game should have clear weakness and counter-play, else it is logically OP.
The most incredible is how zergs players abuse so little of theses powerful earlygame plays. (on ladder and in pro games). When T/P have early-game OP shit, they abuse it so much and so good in no time .... so it get nerfed fast.
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just make the BC viable? id rather see battlecruisers spamned over this raven meme, but this is just personal preference
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On March 14 2018 11:08 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 10:23 neverexpand wrote: Good, the fewer things they change the better. The current version should be the permanent version, at least as far as balance is concerned. I cannot understand the desire to continue patching. Even if balance was absolutely perfect in all matchups (and it never will be), there are still design changes which of course alter balance. The only constant is change. I don't buy that. Last BW patch was in 2001, a few years after the game release. We're over seven years deep now and Blizzard can't stop fiddling. It's shameful.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/157178-the-myth-of-a-long-patch-history-in-scbw
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On March 14 2018 13:24 neverexpand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 11:08 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2018 10:23 neverexpand wrote: Good, the fewer things they change the better. The current version should be the permanent version, at least as far as balance is concerned. I cannot understand the desire to continue patching. Even if balance was absolutely perfect in all matchups (and it never will be), there are still design changes which of course alter balance. The only constant is change. I don't buy that. Last BW patch was in 2001, a few years after the game release. We're over seven years deep now and Blizzard can't stop fiddling. It's shameful. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/157178-the-myth-of-a-long-patch-history-in-scbw BW balance:
The only difference is that SC2 balance issues are directly addressed by the balance team, for better or worse.
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