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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
On November 02 2017 07:00 stuchiu wrote: If it goes to a soO vs INnoVation finals, INnoVation wins. Bold prediction Also Kafka777 for saying that Serral could and should have eliminated Bogus is just another proof that you are a bad troll, so no need to be bait. No player can be confident against INno, or against herO, or against Rogue. Alsoo Neeb is overhyped. | ||
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VanCaspel
Netherlands250 Posts
Also: really hyped for this :D | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
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Perfi2_0
Poland40 Posts
I didn't get to see herO's games during the opening games, here's hoping he delivers as the hope of Protoss! I liked the article, it flowed nicely. | ||
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Ograkk
Sweden22 Posts
Elazer 1-3 Special - Mech reigns supreme Soo 1-3 Gumiho - See above. And Soo will succumb to the pressure. herO 3-0 Rogue - herO is in awesome form plus protoss will always find some cheesy shit in these kind of matches Innovation 2-3 TY - Inno in a high(est) stake TvT has historically not turned out well | ||
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MilkDud
Canada73 Posts
He lost bo3 vs opponents at his level, which could have happened to anyone at this tournament. He will be back. | ||
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OrangeGarage
Korea (South)319 Posts
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Topin
Peru10131 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On November 02 2017 11:07 FrkFrJss wrote: Well Neeb underperformed heavily in Katowice as well. Also, Terran had a 59% winrate vs Protoss in January. And yes, he did underperform a lot because his play was quite full of wholes, and it seemed unconfident. So not necessarily underperformed with regards to past results but with regard to actual performance of play. Let's see, what gave me confidence for Neeb was that ShoWTimE was almost able to win against soO, and Neeb is better than ShoWTimE in PvZ, and again we never got to see his full performance against soO since the first game seemed to break him. Ahh okay then. Neeb just underperforms every time he's in a tournament with koreans. Katowice, WeSG, GSL, blizzcon, all just underperformances you know. Nothing to do with the opponents being better than those in WCS circuit by any means. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On November 03 2017 00:05 MilkDud wrote: All you hating on Neeb remember that he is the only foreigner to go to Korea and win a major Korean tournament. No-one can ever take that away from him and it is the height at which he will always be compared. He lost bo3 vs opponents at his level, which could have happened to anyone at this tournament. He will be back. No one's trying to take Neeb acheivments away from him. But to say he's better than players when he has no actual results to back it up is stupid. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1208 Posts
On November 03 2017 01:41 Fango wrote: Ahh okay then. Neeb just underperforms every time he's in a tournament with koreans. Katowice, WeSG, GSL, blizzcon, all just underperformances you know. Nothing to do with the opponents being better than those in WCS circuit by any means. Hmm...let's go through who he faced tournament by tournament. GSL Hurricane 1-2,1-2. Now, I mean Hurricane did actually almost make it to the ro8, but in general, most people agree that Neeb is better than Hurricane. Conclusion: Neeb underperformed Katowice TY, 0-2, Stats, 0-2, Harstem 2-0, aLive 0-2, jjakji 1-2. Now, I know that Neeb had to face three Terran Koreans and one Protoss Korean, But let's look at Harstem's run TY 1-2, Neeb 1-2, aLive 0-2, jjakji 1-2, Stats 2-0 Not enormously more impressive, but Harstem did beat Stats, and he won one game against everyone except aLive. Harstem, again, is good, but I think people generally agree that Neeb is better than Harstem. Conclusion: Neeb underperformed WESG Now WESG didn't have the hugest competition, and Neeb was the best foreigner there. He lost 0-3 to TY Now, that in itself is not necessarily underperforming, and it's more a facet of Neeb's weakness to Terran as well as TY's general prowess at SC2. However, the fact remains that Terran had a 59-41 win percentage against Protoss. Does it mean that had balance been even Neeb would have won? No, definitely not, but I bet that the series would have been a bit closer. Conclusion: Neeb did not underperform but balance was a factor. That brings us to Blizzcon Rogue 2-1, soO 0-2, and Rogue 0-2 Again, on the surface, it might not necessarily seem like Neeb underperformed. He was facing two of the best Zergs in Korea, both of whom had high ZvP win percentages. However, when watching those games, I saw that it wasn't just playing greedy that killed him. He's played greedy and put up much better of a fight in past games. But in these games, he looked and played like someone who was mentally shaken. You don't generally see someone put his face in his hands if he isn't shaken. Besides, he looked much better in the series vs Rogue where he was able to defend and make it to the later stages of the game. Conclusion: Neeb underperformed with the caveat that soO and Rogue targeted his weaknesses in early aggression/weird allins. I don't deny that Neeb performing was was due to facing harder opponents, but for at least GSL and Katowice, Neeb definitely underperformed, and though it's not as easy to tell, the way that he played at Blizzcon wasn't as well as can normally play. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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FrkFrJss
Canada1208 Posts
On November 03 2017 03:32 Ej_ wrote: It's amazing how there's always a reason for when Neeb is BTFO, but somehow all pf his wins are him dominating the inferior player field :o That's cause there's ALWAYS a reason, and just saying "X won because he/she was so much better than Y" is rarely telling the whole story. And to your second point, yes he is dominating an inferior field, but is it really that inferior? I mean, that inferior field just won against three of the top Koreans in the world and nearly won against the best player in the world. Because if the reasoning follows that "Stats underperformed," well that's an excuse. It is an excuse I find legitimate, but then so is the Neeb fan excuse that he underperformed against soO and Rogue. Because it doesn't make any logical sense that between two people only the stronger person can underperform. Both can underperform, but it's just difficult to tell if the weaker person lost because he underperformed or because the stronger person was stronger. | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
A simpler explanation is this : he is the best foreigner by results (and by far) this year, but he consistently looses vs koreans offline. Probably because they are way better than him (not so 100% predictable, to begin.. ). Btw with your understanding of underperforming (doing worst than peak-form/ than one worse player at one event), nearly everyone under-perform nearly everytime (exept maybe soO ! ) | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On November 03 2017 03:48 FrkFrJss wrote: That's cause there's ALWAYS a reason, and just saying "X won because he/she was so much better than Y" is rarely telling the whole story. And to your second point, yes he is dominating an inferior field, but is it really that inferior? I mean, that inferior field just won against three of the top Koreans in the world and nearly won against the best player in the world. Yes it is. Very clearly. Look at every tournament that has representation from both korea and circuit competition. How many did circuit win? Did any even get a top 4 finish? Not a single foreign player could even break GSL ro32 this year. And they had a solid 10 attempts iirc Saying that SpeCial beat Stats or Elazer beat Dark doesn't prove the regions are of the same skill level. Those are a few bo3s amongst a year of domination. Like saying the low-tier GSL players are on the same level as the champions because they might win the odd series. You know jjakji and Losira have won bo3s against GSL finalists this year right? They must be on the same skill level...smh | ||
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derpistole
Germany33 Posts
Gumiho 0:3 soO Rogue 3:1 hero Inno 3:2 TY Major 0:3 soO Inno 3:1 Rogue Inno 4:2 soO T_T | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On November 03 2017 03:48 FrkFrJss wrote: That's cause there's ALWAYS a reason, and just saying "X won because he/she was so much better than Y" is rarely telling the whole story. And to your second point, yes he is dominating an inferior field, but is it really that inferior? I mean, that inferior field just won against three of the top Koreans in the world and nearly won against the best player in the world. And the best player of that field still got BTFO :o | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1208 Posts
On November 03 2017 03:59 xongnox wrote: #71> So you take his best form at his peak (in, at that time, his best MU, he was clearly the world best PvP stalker/disruptor in the beginning of this meta) and at WCS events when he plays only foreigners, and then infer he underperforms when he looses vs koreans.... (witch is every time he plays koreans offline) A simpler explanation is this : he is the best foreigner by results (and by far) this year, but he consistently looses vs koreans offline. Probably because they are way better than him (not so 100% predictable, to begin.. ). Btw with your understanding of underperforming (doing worst than peak-form/ than one worse player at one event), nearly everyone under-perform nearly everytime (exept maybe soO ! ) First, as a clarification, where do I mention the KeSPA Cup win in my post? I made no mention of it throughout the entire post, so perhaps you should reread what I wrote. So I am not taking him at his peak form in PvP as representative of all matchups, nor did I ever claim that his PvP at KeSPA Cup is representative of all of his matchups. What I compared in WESG was that balance for all Protoss was bad, so I said that balance considerations had to be made even though Neeb likely would have lost. For instance, take his GSL vs. The World performance where he went 2-3 against TY. Was it that Neeb was better against T, TY played bad against Neeb, or balance smoothed things out? Who knows? It wasn't the 3-0 stomp at WESG. In Katowice, I was comparing Harstem and Neeb's relative performance since they were in the same group. I don't know, but do you consider Neeb to be worse or better than Harstem? Again, players are different, but I generally think of Neeb as better than Harstem in PvP, PvZ, and potentially even PvT. But Neeb performed worse than Harstem. In the GSL performance, I asked the question of if Hurricane is considered to be a better player than Neeb. Maybe in PvP...but then maybe not That left the Blizzcon performance, where I talked about how he underperformed with regard to his own personal standards. There hasn't been a ton of offline matches of Neeb vs Korean Koreans, so it's tough to say how good he actually is or isn't. However, I can say decently confidently that Neeb was at the very least playing shakily in his Blizzcon performance. On November 03 2017 04:00 Fango wrote: Yes it is. Very clearly. Look at every tournament that has representation from both korea and circuit competition. How many did circuit win? Did any even get a top 4 finish? Not a single foreign player could even break GSL ro32 this year. And they had a solid 10 attempts iirc Saying that SpeCial beat Stats or Elazer beat Dark doesn't prove the regions are of the same skill level. Those are a few bo3s amongst a year of domination. Like saying the low-tier GSL players are on the same level as the champions because they might win the odd series. You know jjakji and Losira have won bo3s against GSL finalists this year right? They must be on the same skill level...smh Thatis very true. Upon reconsidering, it is true that beating X players does not mean that Y is at the same level. And it is also true that Korea still dominates the foreign WCS Circuit when they meet (for the most part). However, I would like to point out that I never claimed that they were on equal footing, what I said was, and you quoted "Is it really that inferior," and it's the "that" that I want to focus on. I guess what we're disagreeing with is the actual difference between the Korean scene and the foreign scene as a whole, not just the top ten foreigners or the top ten Koreans. Also, 8 players managed to break into the ro32 over the course of the GSL Seasons 1,2, and 3. Now, none of them broke into the ro16, but some came close. But the thing is, you fail to mention my other argument. Is it not possible for a person who is weaker (Neeb) to underperform versus a person who is stronger (Rogue, soO), and I think that logically one has to say that both can underperform. Am I saying that Neeb is necessarily better than either of them? No, I am not. What I am saying is that he did not perform to his regular standards regardless of whether or not he would have won if he had performed to those standards. On November 03 2017 05:45 Ej_ wrote: And the best player of that field still got BTFO :o Indeed, but might I ask whether or not you read the second part of post pertaining to that very matter? | ||
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DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On November 03 2017 06:05 DBooN wrote: I consider Harstem better than Neeb, because he just underperformed in every WCS event. Hehe. Results are all that matters, the context is the level of competition/the playing field. In sc2 it's hard to compare players because the "context" is missing a lot of the time (think taeja). Now it's even worse because you don't even have the weekenders anymore. Stats and Dark lost at blizzcon, they were worse that day. Are they worse overall than Major or Elazer? No probably not, for such a claim one needs more data points to back it up. | ||
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