It may not have been the stated purpose, but the restructured WCS Format introduced by Blizzard following BlizzCon 2015 seemed to have a clear underlying objective: strengthen the foreign scene. Koreans were banished from weekender tournaments with foreigners like ShoWTimE, Nerchio and even an adopted son in TRUE taking full advantage. After more than a half decade of beatings, Neeb returned the favor on Korean soil, lifting the KeSPA Cup. The system was working, the foreign scene had exploded with new life. It was more competitive than ever and appeared to be fostering a new generation of players, something that was not happening in Korea. And, it was from that crop of youngsters that a certain Polish Zerg had the temerity to make it all the way to the semifinals at the 2016 WCS Global Finals.
To say that Elazer wasn’t a known entity at that point would be irresponsible, but he found himself thrust into the spotlight after doing something no foreigner had done since Sen made the final four of BlizzCon back in what might as well be the triassic period in Esports reckoning (known to most as 2012). His match against Dark served as grim reminder just how far he had to go, but it was his first big finish, an indicator of things to come. He stumbled at Austin, but won in Valencia and reached the semifinals at the other two WCS stops. As BlizzCon neared it would have been foolish to dub 2017 anything other than a breakout year. Elazer had arrived, underestimate the fresh faced 19 year old at your own peril.
If Elazer is flash, pizzazz and glamour, his opponent, the only other remaining foreigner in the field, is everything but that. Where Elazer represents newness and promise, SpeCial has been at the whole StarCraft 2 thing as long as anyone. He’s done ardent work, toiling away in Copa Americas and other regional tournaments since time untold. But that’s not to say he’s not a pioneer. Back in 2013, he became the first foreigner to join a proper KeSPA team. Was it the act of a desperate coaching staff or did Cezanne see something we’re only just getting a glimpse of? SpeCial may be the story of the tournament thus far, but we’ve seen this before. A sensational win and then what? Historically, an equally astonishing collapse.
At WCS Valencia, he gave Neeb his only loss in the WCS Circuit all year. Less than three hours later he was bounced from the tournament by Snute in a clean 3-0 sweep. SpeCial played Stats close at GSL vs The World, but he didn’t even make it out of the group stages in Montreal. The fall from grace seemed well underway. All that changed last weekend, though, and one would have a hard time arguing SpeCial wasn’t one of, if not the most impressive player present. The opener against Stats may have been close, but his demolition of TY was anything but.
Among foreigners, 2017 was the year of Neeb, but it won’t be him left standing. In the end, it will be Elazer or SpeCial who will carry the foreigner flag into the the semifinals. For Elazer, a chance to erase the grisly fate he suffered a year earlier, for SpeCial an opportunity at validation for seven years devoted to the game. Only one can remain. So who’s the foreign hope?
Dreamchasers
They’ve never made it this far before.
After a mercurial 2017 that saw GuMiho claim his long awaited championship, he was breaking new ground just by making it to the WCS Global Finals. GuMiho had stripped everything down to the foundation, even addressing things like the mouse settings the average person adjusts once and forever forgets about. The old way of doing things wasn’t going to cut it and GuMiho was tired of mediocrity. Bluster backed up with ferocity, GuMiho was like the finale at the end of a fireworks show. When he was in form, you knew it and it was hard to mistake what he was offering as anything other than greatness.
soO made it to BlizzCon once before. Back in 2014 he was the undisputed best Zerg in Korea. He had dominated the region from start to finish and, had he won a few of those finals, it might be him INnoVation would be measuring himself against, not Mvp. He stormed his way to BlizzCon, confident as can be, but found his dreams dashed against the inexorable barrier that was TaeJa. soO’s 2014 had been one of disappointment and anguish. This was an opportunity to ease away some of that pain, but bravado and disrespect meant he squandered it.
Just as 2017 marked a new era for GuMiho, it was for soO as well. He too recreated himself through equal parts mental resilience and renewed hard work. He made it to two GSL finals and, while his second loss effectively clinched a berth at BlizzCon before the calendar had even turned to July, it came at the hands of his man he will face off against in a few days time.
All of soO’s finals are cases of what could have been, but it was GuMiho who seized the reins and made possibility reality. GuMiho was already on a four match wins streak before they met in that summer night. He stretched the run to eight before soO got his first win in over sixth months against the PSISTORM Terran in September in the midst of soO’s ZvT resurgence. The matchup had long been his achilles heel, but committing to playing his own style instead of trying to replicate that of others appeared to be paying dividends.
Every player in the tournament is living their dream. They are professionals playing the game they love on the highest stage. Money, prestige and the title of world champion, something that can never be taken away, is on the line. But for these two, perhaps more than any other, the dream is a gilded one.
For soO it’s obvious… A career can be decided in a single moment. BlizzCon is my time to redeem my past mistakes.
Those are his own words and it's patently clear how much this tournament means to him. For GuMiho, it’s a frontier he probably never expect he’d see, let alone conquer, during the lean years between his semifinal defeat against DongRaeGu and his GSL victory. But they’ve both made it this far, farther than they’ve ever been. They’re running full tilt into the wind, chasing their dreams. Only one can take the next step, though. Because for every dream that is realized, far more end in regret and despair.
Fish or Kraken?
Canada Bill Jones once said that it’s immoral to let a sucker keep his money. In gambling, the general rule is if you’re getting the better of someone there’s no reason to stop. If you wipe out their bankroll, it would be wrong to not give the fool a chance to deepen their grave as they vainly try to win their money back.
To say that it’s been the summer of Rogue would not be too big of a stretch. There are those who would tell you he should have won GSL Season 2, but the truth is he fell three long matches short of affirming the reputation he had gained on ladder. But it was just the first step on a total reinvention that saw Rogue evolve from a crafty player with deft mastery of compositions and the timings associated with them to a sturdy macro player, adept in every stage of the game. Every king needs his coronation and Rogue got his at the expense of herO in Shanghai. Rogue truly owned the tournament in every way and he effortlessly trampled over the man who had won the Super Tournament only a few months prior. herO looked out of his element and woefully outmatched. The invisible man needed not win to be overshadowed this time, he was able to achieve that fate in defeat.
But having taken $6,000 dollars from herO, Rogue was not so insensitive at to not give him another shot. Rogue and herO next encountered each other in the finals of the second Super Tournaments, having survived semifinals bouts with INnoVation and Dark respectively. It was the perfect final for a tournament in which the cream truly had risen to the top. The final game was the perfect encapsulation of Rogue’s 2017. Once a tier two player who would hesitate and falter at critical moments, Rogue scouted herO’s skytoss and pounced like an apex predator. He had always shied away from the moment in the past, but that was the story no longer. Another $6,000 dollars snatced out of herO’s hands and for Rogue, a spot at BlizzCon.
Sixteen players took part in the opening weekend but it was herO, more than any other, who played the role of brooding horror patrolling the deeps. His play against Elazer and Dark was positively lethal and should give even Rogue room for pause. He could easily be considered the most dangerous player in the field, a mantle which many might have bestowed upon Rogue before his slip up against Neeb.
And so Rogue and herO find themselves opposite one another for the third time in half a year with an even larger prize pool at stake. herO is looking to win his money back and then some while getting revenge on someone whose most notable victories have come at his expense. Rogue, on the other hand, will attempt to disprove the maxim that third time’s the charm. He’s beaten herO twice, with each triumph proving an instrumental waypoint towards reaching this stage. On November 3rd Rogue will do his best to channel Canada Bill because through his eyes, herO is a sucker. It would be immoral to let him keep his money.
When Only One Steed Remains
In the nascent days of 2017, four Terrans stood head and shoulders above their peers. ByuN was the world champion, INnoVation was fresh off a victory at IEM Gyeonggi while Maru and TY had only recently played a Best of 7 for $300,000. Dubbed the Four Horsemen, they looked every bit the favorites to win any tournament they entered. That’s what we were sold anyway. None of the three managed to make it past the round of 8 in GSL Season 1 though. It was Ryung that outpaced his compatriots while players like aLive and GuMiho stole the spotlight at the first Super Tournament and GSL Season 2 respectively. ByuN had all but disappeared and Maru was quickly fading into the distance.
By the time summer came, those who enjoyed their temporary moment in the sun seemed to have burnt out. Both TY and INnoVation fell to herO at IEM Shanghai, but INnoVation had won SSL Premier Season 1, looking every bit the conquering hero in the process. They made their domestic returns at GSL vs The World where INnoVation dominated ByuN and TY in the finals to lift his third premier event title of the year. It was a resounding proclamation by INnoVation, one as clear as day: my supposed brethren are anything but my equals. Evidence mounted as INnoVation endured sOs’ special brand of chaos to win another GSL. As impressive as TY had been throughout the year, it was clear he didn’t belong in the same class as the three time Code S champion. Heading into BlizzCon the question of everyone’s lips was if INnoVation was the GOAT. If he wasn’t already, becoming the WCS world champion would certainly see him over the threshold.
It’s fitting then that the other remaining representative of the dreaded quartet should bar his path to glory. TY’s road to the quarterfinals is so utterly John Sun that the Korean community must have a hard time wiping the grin off their faces. It is in many ways the perfect lead up to this showdown. They’ve split their pair of offline matches in 2017, but the dominance INnoVation displayed in August makes it difficult to imagine a world where the outcome doesn’t parrot the GSL vs The World finals. TY has it within him to surprise everyone though. He dug deep and played spoiler at WeSG and IEM. Would it really be a shock if he pulled off the same trick here as well?.
Once upon a time there were four. Nearly a year later and there are just two. Only one steed remains. Who will claim it and ride off into the sunset?
Nice preview. Canada Bill Jones is known for losing a lot of money gambling as well as winning some, so it's time for herO to swindle back. The sun over the machine is a pretty bold prediction especially after having seen them play.
What an odd TY > innovation prediction. Out of all the matches I think that one is the most one sided (though there is room for an upset there, too, of course).
If special plays like he did in the ro16 elazer has no chance. But special did not play tvz there, and elazer's tvz looked strong in his matches.
Soo is Soo. Gumiho plays tvz weird. It's hard to predict. If soo is familar with gumi's style, which I expect he will have some amount of familiarity with it, then I have to predict a soo victory.
I think Hero vs Rogue is the hardest to predict. Coming in I would have said Rogue all day (he was my favorite to win the tournament). But he faltered vs neeb, whereas hero looks incredible.
Elazer 3-2 Special Soo 3-1 Gumiho Hero 3-2 Rogue Innovation 3-1 TY
even a player showed bad performance in 1st day, he still can win the tournament. It really depends on player's condition and build order luck at the day. And this is the game that victory can go to anyone especially in pro level.
TY still can beat INno in bo5 if he finds his shape, and you can never predict by looking at few results in top level.
I think winner of lower bracket will win this blizzcon
a) Very close games, both were happy to fight each other. Special really really impressed me, even if Stats was the shadow of himself these days. Now we'll have to see if he can play TvZ at the same level he played TvP and TvT. Elazer didn't impressed me that much because he only won ZvZ (even if it was quite an accomplishment to end Dark' streak against foreigner. I do not know enough about him, is his ZvT stronger than his ZvZ?
b) soO said that he had practicing really hard his ZvT. So if soO really took time to fix his ZvT he can beat Gumiho, who didn't impress me. But I'm not confident and Gumi can always pull something strong so 3-2 soO. And tbh I really don't want to see Gumiho in the final of the blizzcon when he got 2d in his group while 3 stronger players are fighting in the other bracket :/
c) Maybe the closest serie. Both are in insane form. My head will say slight advantage to herO, he seems to have peaked at the best time possible in the year, his execution is flawless, it will be hard to beat him. Rogue is the hotest zerg atm, some say he is overrated but still he won GSL ST2 in a very convicing fashion, he is still at peak. So I'll go for him, cause Protoss Morghulis.
d) TY lost 0-2 a TvT against Special, who trained with INnoVation. This fact alone may give an edge to Bogus. That's not all. INno has lost a lot in the first third of 2017 because of a shitty TvT. IEM World and GST ST1 were lost to aLive. He said he fixed his TvT and man he was true he we take Offline results in games. From the start of 2017 to may he is 50% winrate in offline games. Since June he is at 92.86%, 13-1, aganst the like of Gumiho Byun Maru aLive and... TY. So I'll definitly favor INnoVation here. He seemed good against aLive sunday.
On November 02 2017 01:35 pvsnp wrote: Inno 2-0 Gumiho and TY 0-2 Special in group stage. I would tend to think Gumiho > Special as well.
TY has a week to come up with answers and Starcraft isn't as simple as Inno > GuMi > Special > TY, therefore Inno > TY.
Also those 2 series were wildly different.
True enough, but I was only using their relative group stage results to highlight their current form (Inno favored). There are a bunch of other factors, of course, but considering all them only tilts the scale further into Inno's favor.
Starting with the stats, Inno has a winning record against TY both recently and over the whole year. Inno also has the higher TvT winrate, both recently and over the whole year. Stylistically, TY is predictable to the point of exploitability, which has been shown on numerous occasions by everyone from Kelazhur to Dark. There's also the fact that TY's greed plays right into INnoVation's mechanical strength in macro games. And last but not least, Inno is on an absolute tear in terms of recent TvT–since announcing that he had focused specifically on the matchup he has a 92% record in offline TvT series against the likes of Ryung, aLive, Maru, ByuN, Gumiho, and TY himself. Only Gumiho managed to take a single series off him, and Inno took two in return.
Adding everything up, I'm expecting TY vs Inno to be the most onesided series in the entire Ro8. Like I said before, TY is not doomed by any means–upsets can and do happen–but he is most certainly not the favorite.
Sooo this feels like the Acer curse, where some how Acer players always ended up on the same side of the bracket. But now it seems to have spread into the "foreigner curse".
Nice write-up, agree with the predictions apart from the TY vs Inno one - still think The Machine's got this series in the bag. I mean their games at the GSL vs The World looked pretty much one-sided except for one maybe? And TY's tvt looks kinda unstable given his loss to Major...
this korean vs foreigner bullshit is really tiring
You are underestimating foreigners? In reality the fact Neeb and Serral got eliminated is a huge upset. Neeb is better than Soo in PvZ and Serral could have and should have eliminated Inno or Gumiho. But this is just how tournaments go. It is still possible that a foreigner will win the tournament.
this korean vs foreigner bullshit is really tiring
You are underestimating foreigners? In reality the fact Neeb and Serral got eliminated is a huge upset. Neeb is better than Soo in PvZ and Serral could have and should have eliminated Inno or Gumiho. But this is just how tournaments go. It is still possible that a foreigner will win the tournament.
As long as they're in the tournament there is always a "possibility," but they are only in the tournament because of how players are seeded. Take the top 30 players from every region hold a B03 tournament and neither of them would be here. I'm not saying they're not good players, but they were seeded a spot from a weaker region if I'm not mistaken.
Edit: Tournament started with nearly 50/50 foreign/korean. Now it is 25/75. Of course some may make through, but the only reason a foreigner will make it through the next round is because they're both facing each other.
this korean vs foreigner bullshit is really tiring
You are underestimating foreigners? In reality the fact Neeb and Serral got eliminated is a huge upset. Neeb is better than Soo in PvZ and Serral could have and should have eliminated Inno or Gumiho. But this is just how tournaments go. It is still possible that a foreigner will win the tournament.
What kind of nonsense is this. Neeb somehow better than soO? The only korean zergs Neeb has ever beaten offline are Pet and Rogue (who recovered and beat Neeb 2-0 in a complete bop). If it was a close 2-1 or something I'd understand, but he went 2-5 against Rogue and soO overall
Serral went 1-4 against Gumiho, who isn't even close to Inno's level in TvZ. And the only map he won was a proxyhatch that went unscouted.
A foreigner will not win blizzcon either. Unless you expect soO/Inno/herO/Rogue to play as badly as Stats did
I am a big TY fan, but now I just can't see how he can beat Bogus. In general, nobody can compete in TvT against TY, but lately he does not play perfectly. To be honest he is far from his perfection. Still a week with preparation will determine who is better prepared. Rogue is very scary. soO is the hidden winner just as I tried to predict and this will be much fun if It happens. herO is the type of player that knows best how to play such two days tournaments, like a Taeja version I guess, so his match against Rogue is the hardest to predict.
On November 02 2017 07:15 Kafka777 wrote: Show nested quote +
You are underestimating foreigners? In reality the fact Neeb and Serral got eliminated is a huge upset. Neeb is better than Soo in PvZ and Serral could have and should have eliminated Inno or Gumiho. But this is just how tournaments go. It is still possible that a foreigner will win the tournament.
What kind of nonsense is this. Neeb somehow better than soO? The only korean zergs Neeb has ever beaten offline are Pet and Rogue (who recovered and beat Neeb 2-0 in a complete bop). If it was a close 2-1 or something I'd understand, but he went 2-5 against Rogue and soO overall
Serral went 1-4 against Gumiho, who isn't even close to Inno's level in TvZ. And the only map he won was a proxyhatch that went unscouted.
A foreigner will not win blizzcon either. Unless you expect soO/Inno/herO/Rogue to play as badly as Stats did
You are really underestimating how good Neeb is. I must admit Soo outsmarted Neeb and Neeb underperformed. Rogue is another story altogether but also outsmarted Neeb who failed to adjust. Serral also underperformed, nevertheless Gumiho played excellent. He truly would have a better chance against Inno.
If one were to think the cycle is modular, it could be mod 5 smallest. Thus by your logic, herO should actually win the tournament this year. Which is, coincidentally, my prediction also.
this korean vs foreigner bullshit is really tiring
You are underestimating foreigners? In reality the fact Neeb and Serral got eliminated is a huge upset. Neeb is better than Soo in PvZ and Serral could have and should have eliminated Inno or Gumiho. But this is just how tournaments go. It is still possible that a foreigner will win the tournament.
Of course Neeb is better than soO in PvZ since soO plays ZvP. ZvP happened to be soO's best match up going into the tournament, so him beating a non-Korean in the match up isn't a huge upset, even if PvZ is that players best match up.
Seriously, sometimes I wish I will never have to see Neeb playing ever again because despite the fact he is eliminated and not in the quarterfinal at all, people still keep mentioning him like some sort of gauge on how good a player really is. What a joke that is considering he couldn't even make it out of his group and it is super annoying.
Let focus on the players that actually make it to this round instead.
On November 02 2017 07:15 Kafka777 wrote: Show nested quote +
You are underestimating foreigners? In reality the fact Neeb and Serral got eliminated is a huge upset. Neeb is better than Soo in PvZ and Serral could have and should have eliminated Inno or Gumiho. But this is just how tournaments go. It is still possible that a foreigner will win the tournament.
What kind of nonsense is this. Neeb somehow better than soO? The only korean zergs Neeb has ever beaten offline are Pet and Rogue (who recovered and beat Neeb 2-0 in a complete bop). If it was a close 2-1 or something I'd understand, but he went 2-5 against Rogue and soO overall
Serral went 1-4 against Gumiho, who isn't even close to Inno's level in TvZ. And the only map he won was a proxyhatch that went unscouted.
A foreigner will not win blizzcon either. Unless you expect soO/Inno/herO/Rogue to play as badly as Stats did
You are really underestimating how good Neeb is. I must admit Soo outsmarted Neeb and Neeb underperformed. Rogue is another story altogether but also outsmarted Neeb who failed to adjust. Serral also underperformed, nevertheless Gumiho played excellent. He truly would have a better chance against Inno.
It is tough to say how good Neeb truly was against Zerg since we only had three series, and he lost badly in the latter two. I'm not sure I would still necessarily favour Neeb over soO even if Neeb was performing optimally, but I would have given him even odds, and I do agree with you that Neeb definitely did underperform.
On November 02 2017 07:15 Kafka777 wrote: Show nested quote +
You are underestimating foreigners? In reality the fact Neeb and Serral got eliminated is a huge upset. Neeb is better than Soo in PvZ and Serral could have and should have eliminated Inno or Gumiho. But this is just how tournaments go. It is still possible that a foreigner will win the tournament.
What kind of nonsense is this. Neeb somehow better than soO? The only korean zergs Neeb has ever beaten offline are Pet and Rogue (who recovered and beat Neeb 2-0 in a complete bop). If it was a close 2-1 or something I'd understand, but he went 2-5 against Rogue and soO overall
Serral went 1-4 against Gumiho, who isn't even close to Inno's level in TvZ. And the only map he won was a proxyhatch that went unscouted.
A foreigner will not win blizzcon either. Unless you expect soO/Inno/herO/Rogue to play as badly as Stats did
You are really underestimating how good Neeb is. I must admit Soo outsmarted Neeb and Neeb underperformed. Rogue is another story altogether but also outsmarted Neeb who failed to adjust. Serral also underperformed, nevertheless Gumiho played excellent. He truly would have a better chance against Inno.
It is tough to say how good Neeb truly was against Zerg since we only had three series, and he lost badly in the latter two. I'm not sure I would still necessarily favour Neeb over soO even if Neeb was performing optimally, but I would have given him even odds, and I do agree with you that Neeb definitely did underperform.
soO's definitely favoured imo since his playstyle matches up incredibly well against Neeb's.
On November 02 2017 07:15 Kafka777 wrote: Show nested quote +
You are underestimating foreigners? In reality the fact Neeb and Serral got eliminated is a huge upset. Neeb is better than Soo in PvZ and Serral could have and should have eliminated Inno or Gumiho. But this is just how tournaments go. It is still possible that a foreigner will win the tournament.
What kind of nonsense is this. Neeb somehow better than soO? The only korean zergs Neeb has ever beaten offline are Pet and Rogue (who recovered and beat Neeb 2-0 in a complete bop). If it was a close 2-1 or something I'd understand, but he went 2-5 against Rogue and soO overall
Serral went 1-4 against Gumiho, who isn't even close to Inno's level in TvZ. And the only map he won was a proxyhatch that went unscouted.
A foreigner will not win blizzcon either. Unless you expect soO/Inno/herO/Rogue to play as badly as Stats did
You are really underestimating how good Neeb is. I must admit Soo outsmarted Neeb and Neeb underperformed. Rogue is another story altogether but also outsmarted Neeb who failed to adjust. Serral also underperformed, nevertheless Gumiho played excellent. He truly would have a better chance against Inno.
You think Serral would have a better shot against Inno? Serral couldn't even beat Gumiho's bio and Inno's bio is miles ahead of that. Inno is the best TvZ player in the world and has more or less constantly held that title since 2013. In their GSL vs the World match, Inno literally threw away 30 supply for nothing and still beat Serral.
Yes, he played poorly against True. Everyone has off days. Inno's form looked much better the next day.
On November 02 2017 07:15 Kafka777 wrote: Show nested quote +
You are underestimating foreigners? In reality the fact Neeb and Serral got eliminated is a huge upset. Neeb is better than Soo in PvZ and Serral could have and should have eliminated Inno or Gumiho. But this is just how tournaments go. It is still possible that a foreigner will win the tournament.
What kind of nonsense is this. Neeb somehow better than soO? The only korean zergs Neeb has ever beaten offline are Pet and Rogue (who recovered and beat Neeb 2-0 in a complete bop). If it was a close 2-1 or something I'd understand, but he went 2-5 against Rogue and soO overall
Serral went 1-4 against Gumiho, who isn't even close to Inno's level in TvZ. And the only map he won was a proxyhatch that went unscouted.
A foreigner will not win blizzcon either. Unless you expect soO/Inno/herO/Rogue to play as badly as Stats did
You are really underestimating how good Neeb is. I must admit Soo outsmarted Neeb and Neeb underperformed. Rogue is another story altogether but also outsmarted Neeb who failed to adjust. Serral also underperformed, nevertheless Gumiho played excellent. He truly would have a better chance against Inno.
Give me one good reason to say he's better in the matchup than soO. Just one.... He has litterally zero results that indicate so. Crushing victories against Snute and Nerchio don't compare. Domination in WCS circuit doesn't compare when none of it's players can beat GSL ro32. And Neeb didn't even underperform that much, look at his results at WeSG and Katowice. Same thing every time, he can beat all the foreigners but consistantly falls to top koreans.
Serral has even less results to indicate he's as good as Gumiho or Innovation. Look at his offline record vs korean terrans. And don't think I'm just a foreigner hater, I predicted Serral to win against Gumiho beforehand, because of how much I've heard about his online results etc. But I'll admit I was wrong on that one.
On November 02 2017 07:15 Kafka777 wrote: Show nested quote +
You are underestimating foreigners? In reality the fact Neeb and Serral got eliminated is a huge upset. Neeb is better than Soo in PvZ and Serral could have and should have eliminated Inno or Gumiho. But this is just how tournaments go. It is still possible that a foreigner will win the tournament.
What kind of nonsense is this. Neeb somehow better than soO? The only korean zergs Neeb has ever beaten offline are Pet and Rogue (who recovered and beat Neeb 2-0 in a complete bop). If it was a close 2-1 or something I'd understand, but he went 2-5 against Rogue and soO overall
Serral went 1-4 against Gumiho, who isn't even close to Inno's level in TvZ. And the only map he won was a proxyhatch that went unscouted.
A foreigner will not win blizzcon either. Unless you expect soO/Inno/herO/Rogue to play as badly as Stats did
You are really underestimating how good Neeb is. I must admit Soo outsmarted Neeb and Neeb underperformed. Rogue is another story altogether but also outsmarted Neeb who failed to adjust. Serral also underperformed, nevertheless Gumiho played excellent. He truly would have a better chance against Inno.
Give me one good reason to say he's better in the matchup than soO. Just one.... He has litterally zero results that indicate so. Crushing victories against Snute and Nerchio don't compare. Domination in WCS circuit doesn't compare when none of it's players can beat GSL ro32. And Neeb didn't even underperform that much, look at his results at WeSG and Katowice. Same thing every time, he can beat all the foreigners but consistantly falls to top koreans.
Serral has even less results to indicate he's as good as Gumiho or Innovation. Look at his offline record vs korean terrans. And don't think I'm just a foreigner hater, I predicted Serral to win against Gumiho beforehand, because of how much I've heard about his online results etc. But I'll admit I was wrong on that one.
Well Neeb underperformed heavily in Katowice as well. Also, Terran had a 59% winrate vs Protoss in January.
And yes, he did underperform a lot because his play was quite full of wholes, and it seemed unconfident. So not necessarily underperformed with regards to past results but with regard to actual performance of play.
Let's see, what gave me confidence for Neeb was that ShoWTimE was almost able to win against soO, and Neeb is better than ShoWTimE in PvZ, and again we never got to see his full performance against soO since the first game seemed to break him.
Haven't watched that much sc2 in recent months, but why in the world is everyone favoring soO over Gumiho? It feels like the GSL finals all over again. I'm looking at the stats and nothing leads me to believe soO has been significantly more dominant lately outside of his ZvP.
On November 02 2017 11:18 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Haven't watched that much sc2 in recent months, but why in the world is everyone favoring soO over Gumiho? It feels like the GSL finals all over again. I'm looking at the stats and nothing leads me to believe soO has been significantly more dominant lately outside of his ZvP.
On November 02 2017 11:18 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Haven't watched that much sc2 in recent months, but why in the world is everyone favoring soO over Gumiho? It feels like the GSL finals all over again. I'm looking at the stats and nothing leads me to believe soO has been significantly more dominant lately outside of his ZvP.
soO's anti-mech in general has always been one of the few weaknesses in his play imo. I'm going Gumiho 3-0
There are some reasons to believe soO can do it: 1) soO just 2-0'ed GuMiho in Master's Coliseum. (I didn't watch the games, so I can't comment on what happened) 2) His getting in first place in SSL Challenger was off the back of going 3-0 against Terran player.s (ByuN, Bunny, and jjakji) 3) He has 5 very recent GuMiho TvZ games to study.
I still think GuMiho is going to win, but I can see why people think soO can do it. Well, minus the people who act like soO never loses before the finals. That's absolutely not true.
On November 02 2017 13:12 Clazziquai10 wrote: Seeing the comments of Serral fanboys made me laugh. Serral > Innovation? Really? Does anyone in their right mind honestly believe that?
I am very confident that Neeb came into the tournament with a skill level good enough to get out of his group. Could he have beaten soO? Yes, probably. But he didn't. Is his PvZ better overall than soO's ZvP overall? Well, it's certainly possible but to be honest, he doesn't have a ton of games against korean Zergs to really prove it.
In any case, Neeb is out now so it's time to stop hating on him / overhyping him. As I said, I genuinely do think Neeb was good enough to get out of his group, but those games on the second day just really didn't not allow him to show his true strengths. Nonetheless, anyone who thinks it was a huge upset not to get out of a group with Rogue and soO is delusional. Rogue was definitely the favourite for this group, and although people gave Neeb a slight edge over soO, it was basically entirely based off mostly irrelevant games against foreigners, plus the fact that he could concentrate purely on one matchup. In the end, he did prove that his PvZ can match up to the top Korean zergs, but also showed that he still has glaring weaknesses in his play and still has a long road ahead of him. He gave us some great games and some not so great games. He got a bit unlucky, but he's out now. His blizzcon run is over and let's stop talking about him in regards to this tournament.
Serral was honestly really disappointing. I still believe in the raw skill of this kid but I have a feeling we are gonna be waiting a while before he really shows us to these big offline tournaments. His ZvT has always been shaky but it had sounded like it had improved tremendously while in Korea. That didn't really show this tournament. It might be one of these cases like Neeb where they are fine against Terran in practice, but struggle in their vT matchups in tournament series. Unfortunately, that's not a great weakness to have when you're usually going to have to face off against a top tier terran at some point to win any non-region locked tournament. (KeSPA cup was a big exception)
On November 02 2017 07:00 stuchiu wrote: If it goes to a soO vs INnoVation finals, INnoVation wins.
Bold prediction
Also Kafka777 for saying that Serral could and should have eliminated Bogus is just another proof that you are a bad troll, so no need to be bait. No player can be confident against INno, or against herO, or against Rogue.
If 2012 was the Triassic period, I guess we're all dinosaurs here. Well, my fellow dinos, it's been a pleasure all along the way. Here's to another round.
I didn't get to see herO's games during the opening games, here's hoping he delivers as the hope of Protoss!
Elazer 1-3 Special - Mech reigns supreme Soo 1-3 Gumiho - See above. And Soo will succumb to the pressure. herO 3-0 Rogue - herO is in awesome form plus protoss will always find some cheesy shit in these kind of matches Innovation 2-3 TY - Inno in a high(est) stake TvT has historically not turned out well
All you hating on Neeb remember that he is the only foreigner to go to Korea and win a major Korean tournament. No-one can ever take that away from him and it is the height at which he will always be compared.
He lost bo3 vs opponents at his level, which could have happened to anyone at this tournament. He will be back.
On November 02 2017 07:15 Kafka777 wrote: Show nested quote +
You are underestimating foreigners? In reality the fact Neeb and Serral got eliminated is a huge upset. Neeb is better than Soo in PvZ and Serral could have and should have eliminated Inno or Gumiho. But this is just how tournaments go. It is still possible that a foreigner will win the tournament.
What kind of nonsense is this. Neeb somehow better than soO? The only korean zergs Neeb has ever beaten offline are Pet and Rogue (who recovered and beat Neeb 2-0 in a complete bop). If it was a close 2-1 or something I'd understand, but he went 2-5 against Rogue and soO overall
Serral went 1-4 against Gumiho, who isn't even close to Inno's level in TvZ. And the only map he won was a proxyhatch that went unscouted.
A foreigner will not win blizzcon either. Unless you expect soO/Inno/herO/Rogue to play as badly as Stats did
You are really underestimating how good Neeb is. I must admit Soo outsmarted Neeb and Neeb underperformed. Rogue is another story altogether but also outsmarted Neeb who failed to adjust. Serral also underperformed, nevertheless Gumiho played excellent. He truly would have a better chance against Inno.
Give me one good reason to say he's better in the matchup than soO. Just one.... He has litterally zero results that indicate so. Crushing victories against Snute and Nerchio don't compare. Domination in WCS circuit doesn't compare when none of it's players can beat GSL ro32. And Neeb didn't even underperform that much, look at his results at WeSG and Katowice. Same thing every time, he can beat all the foreigners but consistantly falls to top koreans.
Serral has even less results to indicate he's as good as Gumiho or Innovation. Look at his offline record vs korean terrans. And don't think I'm just a foreigner hater, I predicted Serral to win against Gumiho beforehand, because of how much I've heard about his online results etc. But I'll admit I was wrong on that one.
Well Neeb underperformed heavily in Katowice as well. Also, Terran had a 59% winrate vs Protoss in January.
And yes, he did underperform a lot because his play was quite full of wholes, and it seemed unconfident. So not necessarily underperformed with regards to past results but with regard to actual performance of play.
Let's see, what gave me confidence for Neeb was that ShoWTimE was almost able to win against soO, and Neeb is better than ShoWTimE in PvZ, and again we never got to see his full performance against soO since the first game seemed to break him.
Ahh okay then. Neeb just underperforms every time he's in a tournament with koreans. Katowice, WeSG, GSL, blizzcon, all just underperformances you know. Nothing to do with the opponents being better than those in WCS circuit by any means.
On November 03 2017 00:05 MilkDud wrote: All you hating on Neeb remember that he is the only foreigner to go to Korea and win a major Korean tournament. No-one can ever take that away from him and it is the height at which he will always be compared.
He lost bo3 vs opponents at his level, which could have happened to anyone at this tournament. He will be back.
No one's trying to take Neeb acheivments away from him. But to say he's better than players when he has no actual results to back it up is stupid.
On November 02 2017 07:15 Kafka777 wrote: Show nested quote +
You are underestimating foreigners? In reality the fact Neeb and Serral got eliminated is a huge upset. Neeb is better than Soo in PvZ and Serral could have and should have eliminated Inno or Gumiho. But this is just how tournaments go. It is still possible that a foreigner will win the tournament.
What kind of nonsense is this. Neeb somehow better than soO? The only korean zergs Neeb has ever beaten offline are Pet and Rogue (who recovered and beat Neeb 2-0 in a complete bop). If it was a close 2-1 or something I'd understand, but he went 2-5 against Rogue and soO overall
Serral went 1-4 against Gumiho, who isn't even close to Inno's level in TvZ. And the only map he won was a proxyhatch that went unscouted.
A foreigner will not win blizzcon either. Unless you expect soO/Inno/herO/Rogue to play as badly as Stats did
You are really underestimating how good Neeb is. I must admit Soo outsmarted Neeb and Neeb underperformed. Rogue is another story altogether but also outsmarted Neeb who failed to adjust. Serral also underperformed, nevertheless Gumiho played excellent. He truly would have a better chance against Inno.
Give me one good reason to say he's better in the matchup than soO. Just one.... He has litterally zero results that indicate so. Crushing victories against Snute and Nerchio don't compare. Domination in WCS circuit doesn't compare when none of it's players can beat GSL ro32. And Neeb didn't even underperform that much, look at his results at WeSG and Katowice. Same thing every time, he can beat all the foreigners but consistantly falls to top koreans.
Serral has even less results to indicate he's as good as Gumiho or Innovation. Look at his offline record vs korean terrans. And don't think I'm just a foreigner hater, I predicted Serral to win against Gumiho beforehand, because of how much I've heard about his online results etc. But I'll admit I was wrong on that one.
Well Neeb underperformed heavily in Katowice as well. Also, Terran had a 59% winrate vs Protoss in January.
And yes, he did underperform a lot because his play was quite full of wholes, and it seemed unconfident. So not necessarily underperformed with regards to past results but with regard to actual performance of play.
Let's see, what gave me confidence for Neeb was that ShoWTimE was almost able to win against soO, and Neeb is better than ShoWTimE in PvZ, and again we never got to see his full performance against soO since the first game seemed to break him.
Ahh okay then. Neeb just underperforms every time he's in a tournament with koreans. Katowice, WeSG, GSL, blizzcon, all just underperformances you know. Nothing to do with the opponents being better than those in WCS circuit by any means.
Hmm...let's go through who he faced tournament by tournament.
GSL Hurricane 1-2,1-2. Now, I mean Hurricane did actually almost make it to the ro8, but in general, most people agree that Neeb is better than Hurricane.
Now, I know that Neeb had to face three Terran Koreans and one Protoss Korean,
But let's look at Harstem's run TY 1-2, Neeb 1-2, aLive 0-2, jjakji 1-2, Stats 2-0
Not enormously more impressive, but Harstem did beat Stats, and he won one game against everyone except aLive.
Harstem, again, is good, but I think people generally agree that Neeb is better than Harstem.
Conclusion: Neeb underperformed
WESG
Now WESG didn't have the hugest competition, and Neeb was the best foreigner there.
He lost 0-3 to TY
Now, that in itself is not necessarily underperforming, and it's more a facet of Neeb's weakness to Terran as well as TY's general prowess at SC2.
However, the fact remains that Terran had a 59-41 win percentage against Protoss. Does it mean that had balance been even Neeb would have won? No, definitely not, but I bet that the series would have been a bit closer.
Conclusion: Neeb did not underperform but balance was a factor.
That brings us to Blizzcon
Rogue 2-1, soO 0-2, and Rogue 0-2
Again, on the surface, it might not necessarily seem like Neeb underperformed. He was facing two of the best Zergs in Korea, both of whom had high ZvP win percentages.
However, when watching those games, I saw that it wasn't just playing greedy that killed him. He's played greedy and put up much better of a fight in past games. But in these games, he looked and played like someone who was mentally shaken. You don't generally see someone put his face in his hands if he isn't shaken.
Besides, he looked much better in the series vs Rogue where he was able to defend and make it to the later stages of the game.
Conclusion: Neeb underperformed with the caveat that soO and Rogue targeted his weaknesses in early aggression/weird allins.
I don't deny that Neeb performing was was due to facing harder opponents, but for at least GSL and Katowice, Neeb definitely underperformed, and though it's not as easy to tell, the way that he played at Blizzcon wasn't as well as can normally play.
On November 03 2017 03:32 Ej_ wrote: It's amazing how there's always a reason for when Neeb is BTFO, but somehow all pf his wins are him dominating the inferior player field :o
That's cause there's ALWAYS a reason, and just saying "X won because he/she was so much better than Y" is rarely telling the whole story. And to your second point, yes he is dominating an inferior field, but is it really that inferior? I mean, that inferior field just won against three of the top Koreans in the world and nearly won against the best player in the world.
Because if the reasoning follows that "Stats underperformed," well that's an excuse. It is an excuse I find legitimate, but then so is the Neeb fan excuse that he underperformed against soO and Rogue.
Because it doesn't make any logical sense that between two people only the stronger person can underperform. Both can underperform, but it's just difficult to tell if the weaker person lost because he underperformed or because the stronger person was stronger.
#71> So you take his best form at his peak (in, at that time, his best MU, he was clearly the world best PvP stalker/disruptor in the beginning of this meta) and at WCS events when he plays only foreigners, and then infer he underperforms when he looses vs koreans.... (witch is every time he plays koreans offline)
A simpler explanation is this : he is the best foreigner by results (and by far) this year, but he consistently looses vs koreans offline. Probably because they are way better than him (not so 100% predictable, to begin.. ).
Btw with your understanding of underperforming (doing worst than peak-form/ than one worse player at one event), nearly everyone under-perform nearly everytime (exept maybe soO ! )
On November 03 2017 03:32 Ej_ wrote: It's amazing how there's always a reason for when Neeb is BTFO, but somehow all pf his wins are him dominating the inferior player field :o
That's cause there's ALWAYS a reason, and just saying "X won because he/she was so much better than Y" is rarely telling the whole story. And to your second point, yes he is dominating an inferior field, but is it really that inferior? I mean, that inferior field just won against three of the top Koreans in the world and nearly won against the best player in the world.
Yes it is. Very clearly. Look at every tournament that has representation from both korea and circuit competition. How many did circuit win? Did any even get a top 4 finish? Not a single foreign player could even break GSL ro32 this year. And they had a solid 10 attempts iirc
Saying that SpeCial beat Stats or Elazer beat Dark doesn't prove the regions are of the same skill level. Those are a few bo3s amongst a year of domination. Like saying the low-tier GSL players are on the same level as the champions because they might win the odd series. You know jjakji and Losira have won bo3s against GSL finalists this year right? They must be on the same skill level...smh
On November 03 2017 03:32 Ej_ wrote: It's amazing how there's always a reason for when Neeb is BTFO, but somehow all pf his wins are him dominating the inferior player field :o
That's cause there's ALWAYS a reason, and just saying "X won because he/she was so much better than Y" is rarely telling the whole story. And to your second point, yes he is dominating an inferior field, but is it really that inferior? I mean, that inferior field just won against three of the top Koreans in the world and nearly won against the best player in the world.
And the best player of that field still got BTFO :o
On November 03 2017 03:59 xongnox wrote: #71> So you take his best form at his peak (in, at that time, his best MU, he was clearly the world best PvP stalker/disruptor in the beginning of this meta) and at WCS events when he plays only foreigners, and then infer he underperforms when he looses vs koreans.... (witch is every time he plays koreans offline)
A simpler explanation is this : he is the best foreigner by results (and by far) this year, but he consistently looses vs koreans offline. Probably because they are way better than him (not so 100% predictable, to begin.. ).
Btw with your understanding of underperforming (doing worst than peak-form/ than one worse player at one event), nearly everyone under-perform nearly everytime (exept maybe soO ! )
First, as a clarification, where do I mention the KeSPA Cup win in my post? I made no mention of it throughout the entire post, so perhaps you should reread what I wrote.
So I am not taking him at his peak form in PvP as representative of all matchups, nor did I ever claim that his PvP at KeSPA Cup is representative of all of his matchups.
What I compared in WESG was that balance for all Protoss was bad, so I said that balance considerations had to be made even though Neeb likely would have lost. For instance, take his GSL vs. The World performance where he went 2-3 against TY. Was it that Neeb was better against T, TY played bad against Neeb, or balance smoothed things out? Who knows? It wasn't the 3-0 stomp at WESG.
In Katowice, I was comparing Harstem and Neeb's relative performance since they were in the same group. I don't know, but do you consider Neeb to be worse or better than Harstem? Again, players are different, but I generally think of Neeb as better than Harstem in PvP, PvZ, and potentially even PvT. But Neeb performed worse than Harstem.
In the GSL performance, I asked the question of if Hurricane is considered to be a better player than Neeb. Maybe in PvP...but then maybe not
That left the Blizzcon performance, where I talked about how he underperformed with regard to his own personal standards. There hasn't been a ton of offline matches of Neeb vs Korean Koreans, so it's tough to say how good he actually is or isn't. However, I can say decently confidently that Neeb was at the very least playing shakily in his Blizzcon performance.
On November 03 2017 03:32 Ej_ wrote: It's amazing how there's always a reason for when Neeb is BTFO, but somehow all pf his wins are him dominating the inferior player field :o
That's cause there's ALWAYS a reason, and just saying "X won because he/she was so much better than Y" is rarely telling the whole story. And to your second point, yes he is dominating an inferior field, but is it really that inferior? I mean, that inferior field just won against three of the top Koreans in the world and nearly won against the best player in the world.
Yes it is. Very clearly. Look at every tournament that has representation from both korea and circuit competition. How many did circuit win? Did any even get a top 4 finish? Not a single foreign player could even break GSL ro32 this year. And they had a solid 10 attempts iirc
Saying that SpeCial beat Stats or Elazer beat Dark doesn't prove the regions are of the same skill level. Those are a few bo3s amongst a year of domination. Like saying the low-tier GSL players are on the same level as the champions because they might win the odd series. You know jjakji and Losira have won bo3s against GSL finalists this year right? They must be on the same skill level...smh
Thatis very true. Upon reconsidering, it is true that beating X players does not mean that Y is at the same level. And it is also true that Korea still dominates the foreign WCS Circuit when they meet (for the most part).
However, I would like to point out that I never claimed that they were on equal footing, what I said was, and you quoted "Is it really that inferior," and it's the "that" that I want to focus on. I guess what we're disagreeing with is the actual difference between the Korean scene and the foreign scene as a whole, not just the top ten foreigners or the top ten Koreans.
Also, 8 players managed to break into the ro32 over the course of the GSL Seasons 1,2, and 3. Now, none of them broke into the ro16, but some came close.
But the thing is, you fail to mention my other argument. Is it not possible for a person who is weaker (Neeb) to underperform versus a person who is stronger (Rogue, soO), and I think that logically one has to say that both can underperform. Am I saying that Neeb is necessarily better than either of them? No, I am not. What I am saying is that he did not perform to his regular standards regardless of whether or not he would have won if he had performed to those standards.
On November 03 2017 05:45 Ej_ wrote:
And the best player of that field still got BTFO :o
Indeed, but might I ask whether or not you read the second part of post pertaining to that very matter?
On November 03 2017 06:05 DBooN wrote: I consider Harstem better than Neeb, because he just underperformed in every WCS event.
Hehe.
Results are all that matters, the context is the level of competition/the playing field. In sc2 it's hard to compare players because the "context" is missing a lot of the time (think taeja). Now it's even worse because you don't even have the weekenders anymore.
Stats and Dark lost at blizzcon, they were worse that day. Are they worse overall than Major or Elazer? No probably not, for such a claim one needs more data points to back it up.
jeez, all this foreigner vs korean circle jerking is really annoying and doesnt even really have to do with the article. special beat 2 koreans to make it to the quarters and elazer knocked out dark after a 34 (!!!) series win streak vs foreigners, including 3:0 victories over himself and serral. so dont come with this hurr durr zvz BO 3 doesnt count bullsh*t, its still impressive and a deserved spot in this RO 8. moving on.
At WCS Valencia, he gave Neeb his only loss in the WCS Circuit all year
the only knockout loss, neeb actually lost a series in the group stage in the first 3 events.
On November 3rd Rogue will do his best to channel Canada Bill because through his eyes, herO is a sucker
hehe, as herO likes to dance his units (in victory and defeat) he might be a sucker indeed ;D
nice article overall and i like the flavor of the predictions. a little bit unorthodox, but not too crazy
my predictions: special 3-1 elazer, soO 3-2 gumiho, herO 3-2 rogue, inno 3-1 ty
On November 03 2017 05:57 FrkFrJss wrote:Thatis very true. Upon reconsidering, it is true that beating X players does not mean that Y is at the same level. And it is also true that Korea still dominates the foreign WCS Circuit when they meet (for the most part).
However, I would like to point out that I never claimed that they were on equal footing, what I said was, and you quoted "Is it really that inferior," and it's the "that" that I want to focus on. I guess what we're disagreeing with is the actual difference between the Korean scene and the foreign scene as a whole, not just the top ten foreigners or the top ten Koreans.
Also, 8 players managed to break into the ro32 over the course of the GSL Seasons 1,2, and 3. Now, none of them broke into the ro16, but some came close.
But the thing is, you fail to mention my other argument. Is it not possible for a person who is weaker (Neeb) to underperform versus a person who is stronger (Rogue, soO), and I think that logically one has to say that both can underperform. Am I saying that Neeb is necessarily better than either of them? No, I am not. What I am saying is that he did not perform to his regular standards regardless of whether or not he would have won if he had performed to those standards.
Sorry it was someone else that claimed Neeb was better than soO (or something stupid like that)
Anyway, the foreigners had 10 attempts in GSL this year and none of them got out of the ro32. 10/12 players that got into Katowice playoffs were korean. None of the foreigners even qualified for IEM Shangai other than iAsonu. WeSG was the definition of a beatdown. The WCS Circuit is inferior in terms of skill. I don't see how you can interpret the results any other way
And I wont argue whether Neeb underperformed that much or not. But when he's supposedly "underperforming" every time he faces korean opponents, then it's not really underperforming at that point, it's just his normal skill level. Personally I don't think he did that badly, going 2-5 against soO and Rogue is what I'd expect of him. And I've considered him a top 5 protoss for most of the year (along with Stats, herO, Classic, and either sOs or Dear)
On November 03 2017 05:57 FrkFrJss wrote:Thatis very true. Upon reconsidering, it is true that beating X players does not mean that Y is at the same level. And it is also true that Korea still dominates the foreign WCS Circuit when they meet (for the most part).
However, I would like to point out that I never claimed that they were on equal footing, what I said was, and you quoted "Is it really that inferior," and it's the "that" that I want to focus on. I guess what we're disagreeing with is the actual difference between the Korean scene and the foreign scene as a whole, not just the top ten foreigners or the top ten Koreans.
Also, 8 players managed to break into the ro32 over the course of the GSL Seasons 1,2, and 3. Now, none of them broke into the ro16, but some came close.
But the thing is, you fail to mention my other argument. Is it not possible for a person who is weaker (Neeb) to underperform versus a person who is stronger (Rogue, soO), and I think that logically one has to say that both can underperform. Am I saying that Neeb is necessarily better than either of them? No, I am not. What I am saying is that he did not perform to his regular standards regardless of whether or not he would have won if he had performed to those standards.
Sorry it was someone else that claimed Neeb was better than soO (or something stupid like that)
Anyway, the foreigners had 10 attempts in GSL this year and none of them got out of the ro32. 10/12 players that got into Katowice playoffs were korean. None of the foreigners even qualified for IEM Shangai other than iAsonu. WeSG was the definition of a beatdown. The WCS Circuit is inferior in terms of skill. I don't see how you can interpret the results any other way
And I wont argue whether Neeb underperformed that much or not. But when he's supposedly "underperforming" every time he faces korean opponents, then it's not really underperforming at that point, it's just his normal skill level. Personally I don't think he did that badly, going 2-5 against soO and Rogue is what I'd expect of him. And I've considered him a top 5 protoss for most of the year (along with Stats, herO, Classic, and either sOs or Dear)
That's fair. I wouldn't disagree that the WCS Circuit is worse than the Korean one. I think they're getting better, but obviously, they have a ways to go.
And with regards to Neeb underperforming offline, I have to add in the GSL versus The World. This is about what I'd expect if Neeb was playing to the level that I think he is capable of. He won convincingly against sOs, which I don't think was a huge surprise, and then he lost 2-3 against TY.
It is true that he struggle offline against Koreans, no question, but I've seen him in moments (and generally online) beat or go toe to toe with top Koreans Terrans and especially Zerg. (Beating Solar 3-0 was notable), and while online is obviously different than offline, I've seen what he's been capable of, and it's disappointing to see him not reach that potential yet.
On November 03 2017 05:57 FrkFrJss wrote:Thatis very true. Upon reconsidering, it is true that beating X players does not mean that Y is at the same level. And it is also true that Korea still dominates the foreign WCS Circuit when they meet (for the most part).
However, I would like to point out that I never claimed that they were on equal footing, what I said was, and you quoted "Is it really that inferior," and it's the "that" that I want to focus on. I guess what we're disagreeing with is the actual difference between the Korean scene and the foreign scene as a whole, not just the top ten foreigners or the top ten Koreans.
Also, 8 players managed to break into the ro32 over the course of the GSL Seasons 1,2, and 3. Now, none of them broke into the ro16, but some came close.
But the thing is, you fail to mention my other argument. Is it not possible for a person who is weaker (Neeb) to underperform versus a person who is stronger (Rogue, soO), and I think that logically one has to say that both can underperform. Am I saying that Neeb is necessarily better than either of them? No, I am not. What I am saying is that he did not perform to his regular standards regardless of whether or not he would have won if he had performed to those standards.
Sorry it was someone else that claimed Neeb was better than soO (or something stupid like that)
Anyway, the foreigners had 10 attempts in GSL this year and none of them got out of the ro32. 10/12 players that got into Katowice playoffs were korean. None of the foreigners even qualified for IEM Shangai other than iAsonu. WeSG was the definition of a beatdown. The WCS Circuit is inferior in terms of skill. I don't see how you can interpret the results any other way
And I wont argue whether Neeb underperformed that much or not. But when he's supposedly "underperforming" every time he faces korean opponents, then it's not really underperforming at that point, it's just his normal skill level. Personally I don't think he did that badly, going 2-5 against soO and Rogue is what I'd expect of him. And I've considered him a top 5 protoss for most of the year (along with Stats, herO, Classic, and either sOs or Dear)
That's fair. I wouldn't disagree that the WCS Circuit is worse than the Korean one. I think they're getting better, but obviously, they have a ways to go.
And with regards to Neeb underperforming offline, I have to add in the GSL versus The World. This is about what I'd expect if Neeb was playing to the level that I think he is capable of. He won convincingly against sOs, which I don't think was a huge surprise, and then he lost 2-3 against TY.
It is true that he struggle offline against Koreans, no question, but I've seen him in moments (and generally online) beat or go toe to toe with top Koreans Terrans and especially Zerg. (Beating Solar 3-0 was notable), and while online is obviously different than offline, I've seen what he's been capable of, and it's disappointing to see him not reach that potential yet.
Beating sOs is a difficult one to judge. sOs said himself that he only cares about winning GSL and other tournaments he just plays for fun. His results would indicate that (he barely enters any other tournaments and when he's forced to like in NW, GSLvsTW, or ST2, he fails). Losing 2-3 to TY is a much bigger deal imo, although he lost it's the kind of results that shows that anything can happen, if it was a bo3 instead of bo5 he might have one. However TY was clearly the better player in that series.
Online results hold little value, who cares if he beats Solar 3-0? Solar probably doesn't care that he lost in whatever event that was
I just regret that Special and Elazer are not fighting Koreans... So far the tournament is running great. I was just surprised a bit by the performance of Nerchio and Neeb. Serral almost beat Gumiho, it wouldn't take much more to be in quarterfinals. Maybe next year. Incredibly looking forward to this evening
I still think that Blizzcon series of SoO vs Taeja is one of the best series ever. Constant fighting, late games, among the highest skills of the time. Shame the later series in the tourney didn't quite live up to it.
On November 03 2017 21:41 Twinkle Toes wrote: Neeb winning vs. Rogue in a strategy-based macro super late game was epic! Too bad he got dropped in the next matchups.
he may have gotten to the late game with strategy, but after 200/200 skytoss neither side wins with strategy. it's 100% about positioning and heavily hinges on how quickly and accurately zerg uses spells. for toss it's more about not overextending into spores and having archons/templar in position to mop up corruptors and feedback vipers and infestors
On November 03 2017 21:41 Twinkle Toes wrote: Neeb winning vs. Rogue in a strategy-based macro super late game was epic! Too bad he got dropped in the next matchups.
he may have gotten to the late game with strategy, but after 200/200 skytoss neither side wins with strategy. it's 100% about positioning and heavily hinges on how quickly and accurately zerg uses spells. for toss it's more about not overextending into spores and having archons/templar in position to mop up corruptors and feedback vipers and infestors
Doesn't that make it even better for Neeb? That's basically saying that Neeb beat Rogue in a battle of fundamentals.
You guys see what is going to happen? Another SoO 2nd place. He's not going to lose to Special and it is very doubtful he can beat the winner of TY or Rogue.
It would be incredible to see him win this and everybody will be cheering for him.
EPT
by mizenhauer![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/bird_blue_16.png)
- Mizenhauer
ShoWTimE, 
Nerchio and even an adopted son in 
SpeCial has been at the whole StarCraft 2 thing as long as anyone. He’s done ardent work, toiling away in Copa Americas and other regional tournaments since time untold. But that’s not to say he’s not a pioneer. Back in 2013, he became the first foreigner to join a proper KeSPA team. Was it the act of a desperate coaching staff or did 
Odyssey LE
