TvZ: A Summary of What's (Still) Broken - Page 5

On December 24 2012 03:22 TheDwf wrote:

Wrong, some Zergs were doing that, e. g. Nerchio then Stephano in Europe. Getting some Roaches to morph an earlier third was not at all the painful sacrifice you're describing.

On December 24 2012 03:28 Saraf wrote:

While it does set back the terran economy, it at least helps advance your tech. Building roaches *only* sets back the zerg economy (ignoring anything else they might be doing with them, just purely in economic terms). The Zerg is spending 250/100+drone that they wouldn't have spent otherwise (total cost 450/100 minus 200 for the 4 drones they would have built). The Terran is spending (assuming it's just a reactor 4-hellion opener) 400 minerals they wouldn't have spent otherwise because they were going to build a factory and reactor eventually anyway. His point, I think, was that without the queen buff the Terran is spending 400 minerals he wouldn't have spent otherwise (and the gas/etc. earlier) in order to automatically cost the zerg 250/100 (and a drone) he doesn't want to spend.

You make a mistake and lose? Welcome to Starcraft 2. Every race has examples of this happening - it takes some pretty vibrantly tinted whine-goggles to think that this reality is unique to the Terran race.

On December 24 2012 03:52 aksfjh wrote:
This is a line of thinking I've always hated in SC2. The Zerg community latches onto the most greedy POS builds they can, pumping nothing but drones and whining at any deviation from that. The idea that Zerg should be making units that aren't endgame units is somehow appalling, but required from Terran and Protoss.

On December 24 2012 03:34 ArchAngelSC wrote:

2 gas = 150 minerals
factory = 150 minerals 100 gas
reactor = 50 minerals 50 gas
total 350 minerals 150 gas
by building all this tech earlier that you so casually and quickly passed over you're pretty much sacrificing having an entire extra OC just to make the zerg have to spend 250/100 + drone .... Who exactly is getting the bigger benefit here? Even if it is the terran it's not exactly hugely game breaking is it?

Yes it advances your tech but the sacrifice in economy is HUGE.

The problem is that it's just so accepted that zergs make only drones for the first 8-10 minutes of the game that if they have to sacrifice ANY economy at all to deal with any sort of harrass it's completely unacceptable.

On December 24 2012 04:01 DidYuhim wrote:

And, you're fucked against muta.

On December 24 2012 04:29 CapTanObviOs wrote:
It makes me laugh how zergs say "terran should wait and they will find out how to win" We have been waiting for almost a year now and what has blizzard done "Oh we'll reduce fungal range by 1 and make seeker missle upgrade free" What has blizzard done in the past when terran was considered op? "Oh thats op, gone" within a few months. I dont know why blizzard is so slow with their patches, infestors are obviously broken and make for boring games in starcraft and even zergs know that. I would love blizzard to try out drastic nerfs to infestors, such as decreasing the range of fungal significantly and making it a slow projectile, and making infested terran eggs take longer to spawn or have less hp, something to make sure we have greater than 1 terran in the round of 16 or higher in a tournament, because this imbalance is not just hurting one matchup, its hurting this game as a whole.

On December 05 2012 11:25 InfCereal wrote:


Protoss is doing wonderfully against zerg compared to terran.

The Lings of Liberty thread is a troll, lol. It's statistics are laughable. Also, IPL5 had huge Zerg saturation going into it which makes the results pretty inevitable. And you have those exact IPL5 numbers covering a lot of the gap in your overall race winrates in the last 4 months. Should check the seeding on each of th ose to get a better feel for the whole story. Numbers have stories behidn them. Just taking whoevers graphs look like it supports what you think isn't really reflective of someone having dedication to the full, exact story involved. For every tournament you're showing that has zerg favored saturation, or win rates, or championship wins; There are tournaments that show the exact same for other races. Please make some effort to be honest with yourself, and subsequently the people you talk to, about what's going on.

Also, nothing you've said is original. You make a mistake and lose? Welcome to Starcraft 2. Every race has examples of this happening - it takes some pretty vibrantly tinted whine-goggles to think that this reality is unique to the Terran race. Seriously, the people who bring up this 'point' are desperately in need of a clue and some form of basic ability to view things outside of their bias.

Also, it looks like you have outdated writing on an Infestor which has now been nerfed, and are so committed to whining that you haven't bothered to change this. Other than to put "(still)" in your title. I'll leave it to you to figure out, in time, how significant the infestor changes are.

Timing attacks and queen complaints? We pay for those queens, and if zergs weren't shutting down your attacks with those, they would be using roaches and lings instead. It's not as if Z were just sitting around ready to be shit on by a ton of early game aggressive moves by Terran, and with a queen buff that all suddenly became impotent. Early game aggression is just universally an easy thing to scout and handle. If it wasn't, we'd all use it non-stop. But it is. Furthermore, it's not like queens stand up to stuff and say you shall not pass! There are tons of situations where Zerg is naked behind their queens, not even making a spine anymore, or a baneling nest or a roach warren.

Your attention-as-a-resource bit seems founded on the presupposition that Terran is more apm intensive than Z, and your proofs or examples seem to be numbers pulled right from your butt and delivered with confidence. That's not going to work. Do you want to hear me whine about how you can cue up 3 dropships and not look at them while I have to scramble to deal with all the chaos that causes in one unified moment for me? No, you don't, and I don't want to talk about it, because it doesn't actually matter. You need to get over these arbitrary notions for all things having to be, in every way, equal. The races are not designed that way, and the game would be boring if they were. We all have our own unique shit to deal with. Again, for all the examples you put forward in favor of one race, they can be made for the other races. Please realize this.

As for the late g ame, the infestor nerf is quite relevant, as is the seeker missile buff. You're probably into the trend of laughing at that buff, as if its meaningless, because you refuse to acknowledge or be open minded to what it does for your race. It's not just a resource buff, but through that, a buff to the speed and accessability of having seeker missile splashed into your game, sooner than ever and cheaper than ever. Seeker missile has already been getting a ton of use in recent, and to great effect. We've all seen it. So quit pretending you're fucked and nothing is improving or changing so that you can enjoy the sound of your own whining. That isn't going to help you or your community, not at all.

I'm not going to address the late game at large with you, because that would take a ton of time to do comprehensively, and I can't say that you have made the impression of someone who really understands what is going on, nor do you come off as particularly open-minded for your race. You come off as someone dead set on feeling screwed. You must rage a lot, and therefor need a lot of consolation at the racial level, so that you can bypass having to acknowledge your own mistakes.

Deal with it. /sunglasses

On December 24 2012 03:43 tomatriedes wrote:
All of these points apply to PvZ too.

On December 24 2012 04:53 Corsica wrote:
Ok this is stupid:
Harassment tactics from Zerg require a disproportionately larger amount of attention for Terran to deal with than Terran harassment does for a Zerg player.

when you drop in 2-3 places You can just stim + amove and if i didnt sent enoguh lings ill probably lose a lot of drones/tech. Not to mention BFH which can kill a lot. If ling runby its your fault for not walling off, spotting it in time, besides they are easy to clean up;.

On December 24 2012 03:55 anguyenm wrote:


Yes, if you make a couple mistakes, you lose in Starcraft. But in TvZ, if you make one mistake, you can lose your entire army and then the game. That's the difference. If you think that a zerg loses their late game army at 40 minutes can't come back, you haven't been watching the game. You make a mistake as zerg, it's much easier to recover.

On December 24 2012 03:55 nomyx wrote:


Greedy play should be a risk, not something standard. PvZ is a mutual agreement of "You don't attack me I won't attack you" for the first few minutes because Protoss gateway units are very weak (made weak because if they were non-gimped units they would be OP because of warpgate tech and sentry forcefield).

Early game aggression (which is the hard counter to greedy play) is nullified because of the zerg's buffs and even further diminished because of map sizes

Edit: Another interesting thing of note, queen DPS is 8 vs ground 9 vs air, compare that to a stalker (a unit that costs 25 minerals less and 50 more gas) which has 6.9 DPS. A queen is a very strong defender, especially post range buff