EPTTvZ: A Summary of What's (Still) Broken - Page 25
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Snusmumriken
Sweden1717 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
- Z can be GREEDY and SAFE - T can be GREEDY, but NOT SAFE | ||
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Nick_54
United States2230 Posts
On December 28 2012 00:42 KawaiiRice wrote: there are a lot more things that make zerg broken than just bl infestor... but blizzard is too blind to see any of it. Please gives us your opinion Kawaii, I'd really love to hear the insight a good pro has on this situation. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10108 Posts
On December 28 2012 01:04 Snowbear wrote: You can all keep whining about fungal, but meanwhile the biggest problem is the possibility to be greedy and safe: - Z can be GREEDY and SAFE - T can be GREEDY, but NOT SAFE Somebody should tell that to Gumiho :d | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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ShadowReaver
Canada563 Posts
I fear that the new units and abilities in HotS will make TvZ much, much harder. Its hard not to feel sorry for Terrans now a days and I expect more posts like these once HotS reaches the masses. | ||
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Ceyox
Sweden29 Posts
On December 28 2012 01:04 Snowbear wrote: You can all keep whining about fungal, but meanwhile the biggest problem is the possibility to be greedy and safe: - Z can be GREEDY and SAFE - T can be GREEDY, but NOT SAFE Truth, as far as we know. | ||
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
good ol bling bust ftw xd | ||
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algue
France1436 Posts
On December 28 2012 01:37 monkybone wrote: That's right, but there's a semantical problem here. You're not playing greedy when you're playing safe. Since the queen doesn't need larvae to be produced and offers a good defence for the zerg you can be safe without hurting your drone production (whereas defending with lings would). It's like eating tons of nutella without getting fat ! | ||
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SiroKO
France721 Posts
On December 28 2012 00:42 KawaiiRice wrote: there are a lot more things that make zerg broken than just bl infestor... but blizzard is too blind to see any of it. The OP talked about one other important aspect which is the fact that Terran can't seriously punish Zerg greed without all-ining. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On December 27 2012 23:57 sitromit wrote: The idea that if Terran leaves Zerg's economy untouched, Terran will be at a significant disadvantage is the biggest lie perpetuated in SC2. I'll skip right to the facts, and give an actual example from a very recent game, what many Terrans cite as a nightmare scenario: 12 mins into a TvZ, Zerg is on 3 bases and has 7 Queens with their oh-so-fearsome 5 range, 80 Drones, and Creep halfway across the map. Terran has done a standard Hellion opening, killed 0 Drones, both sides have left each other untouched. Zerg has 1-1, Spire Finished, 9 Mutalisks and 2 more Queens on their way, baneling Nest, and 52 Zerglings.. Zerg has 146 supply. The Terran, who is supply blocked by the way, has 137, a mere 9 supply difference, which would probably be even if not for the supply block. Terran is also on 3 bases and has 72 SCVs and 4 Mules mining. 3 Medivacs, 1 Hellion, 5 Tanks, and 29 1-1 Marines. Income? Terran is ahead by 300 minerals a minute, gas is roughly the same. These are the facts of the game between DRG and Bomber on Metropolis. So scary that Zerg macro, right? Bomber easily denies DRG's building 4th with a drop, then gets a supply lead after a cost efficient exchange, which he maintains until he eventually wins the game. On December 28 2012 00:22 sitromit wrote: Let's look at another example, no theorycrafting here, just facts. DRG vs Yoda on Cloud Kingdom, IPL 5: At 10:45, the first real exchange occurs. DRG attacks Yoda's 3rd with some Speedlings, which Yoda defends with Hellions. At this exact moment, here are the stats: Terran and Zerg both on 3 bases. Terran has 60 SVCs, 6 Hellions and 22 1-1 Marines. Zerg has 69 Drones, 6 Queens and 38 Zerglings. Supplies are virtually even 106 for Terran, 105 for Zerg. In that initial attack DRG loses 2 Zerglings and kills nothing. Both sides have killed 0 workers. At 12 minutes, here are the stats: DRG has lost 6 units, Yoda has lost 1. Supplies 120 vs 135, Yoda is ahead. Wait, I thought Terran couldn't keep up with Zerg macro! Someone tell Yoda to stop making units, he's not supposed to be able to! It's when the exchanges actually occur that terran has the short end of the stick. Infestors don't allow terran to control the exchanges, which generally allow the zerg to come out at least even when exchanges do occur. And then in the lower leagues the problem is even worse; you see entire armies of 30+ marines disappear in a matter of seconds. And then what's replaced faster, 20 marines or 20 zerglings? 40 zerglings? 60 zerglings? But wait, larvae mechanics aren't limited by production buildings or queues. They're limited by the total income and larvae count. In BW early game, the real reason zerg needed a 3rd base is because they needed a 3rd gas for their core gas-heavy units, not because they needed more minerals. They couldn't swarm you with just zerglings because it was cost-inefficient..very cost-inefficient both money and larvae-wise. Even if you threw lurkers and mutas in the mix, it was still pretty cost-inefficient for zerg because there was a limited amount of larvae. But those were BW zerglings with retarded AI and no spawn larvae queens. In SC2, now you have zergs wanting that 3rd base not primarily for the gas, but for the minerals instead. This combined with the fungal root and the seemingly unlimited amount of larvae at their disposal, allows the zerg to make lopsided battle of attrition trades and still come out ahead. The more econ the zerg has, the more the terran has to kill to just stay even. Realistically, the terran can only get about 4 zerglings per marine, tops. Break even is 2 zerglings for 1 marine. What happens when the zerg can afford to lose that? What happens when 15 marines get fungaled and they lose 20 zerglings? No zerglings? And this is all still ignoring the production time factor. And how much of an army can the terran realistically amass for a full engage? And how often can the terran fully engage a hit and run squad of zerglings and infestors? And then how often can the terran hit a timing where the zerg has no money or larvae? All of these conditions have to be met in order for a terran to win a game at a high level. So keeping up with the macro with no interactions isn't the problem, its playing battle of attrition handicapped with a time limit on top of that. In order for the terran to win, we have to have the better economy under 15 minutes, or whenever the broodlords do come out, for a long enough time so that the terran can build enough production buildings and units to overwhelm the zerg . They should've at least made spawn larvae a research and put it at 1 larvae for hatch tech, 2 larvae for lair tech, and 3 larvae for hive and made the infestor some sort of artillery unit, not an energy spellcaster. If the economies are even, zerg will have an upper advantage. Not saying that it's an insurmountable advantage, but its definitely in favor of zerg. If the terran takes too long, zerg will have an advantage. Not impossible to overcome, but its still in favor of zerg. This just goes to show how idiotic Blizzard was in rushing the release of this game, how poorly it was balanced and thought through, and how it is not one, single problem that is the cause of the imbalances, but multiple problems that have compounded on each other over the years that has led us to today. | ||
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ArchAngelSC
England706 Posts
On December 27 2012 23:57 sitromit wrote: The idea that if Terran leaves Zerg's economy untouched, Terran will be at a significant disadvantage is the biggest lie perpetuated in SC2. I'll skip right to the facts, and give an actual example from a very recent game, what many Terrans cite as a nightmare scenario: 12 mins into a TvZ, Zerg is on 3 bases and has 7 Queens with their oh-so-fearsome 5 range, 80 Drones, and Creep halfway across the map. Terran has done a standard Hellion opening, killed 0 Drones, both sides have left each other untouched. Zerg has 1-1, Spire Finished, 9 Mutalisks and 2 more Queens on their way, baneling Nest, and 52 Zerglings.. Zerg has 146 supply. The Terran, who is supply blocked by the way, has 137, a mere 9 supply difference, which would probably be even if not for the supply block. Terran is also on 3 bases and has 72 SCVs and 4 Mules mining. 3 Medivacs, 1 Hellion, 5 Tanks, and 29 1-1 Marines. Income? Terran is ahead by 300 minerals a minute, gas is roughly the same. These are the facts of the game between DRG and Bomber on Metropolis. So scary that Zerg macro, right? Bomber easily denies DRG's building 4th with a drop, then gets a supply lead after a cost efficient exchange, which he maintains until he eventually wins the game. On December 28 2012 00:22 sitromit wrote: Let's look at another example, no theorycrafting here, just facts. DRG vs Yoda on Cloud Kingdom, IPL 5: At 10:45, the first real exchange occurs. DRG attacks Yoda's 3rd with some Speedlings, which Yoda defends with Hellions. At this exact moment, here are the stats: Terran and Zerg both on 3 bases. Terran has 60 SVCs, 6 Hellions and 22 1-1 Marines. Zerg has 69 Drones, 6 Queens and 38 Zerglings. Supplies are virtually even 106 for Terran, 105 for Zerg. In that initial attack DRG loses 2 Zerglings and kills nothing. Both sides have killed 0 workers. At 12 minutes, here are the stats: DRG has lost 6 units, Yoda has lost 1. Supplies 120 vs 135, Yoda is ahead. Wait, I thought Terran couldn't keep up with Zerg macro! Someone tell Yoda to stop making units, he's not supposed to be able to! I don't think you quite understand the issue. The problem is that zerg can get to this situation easily, quicker and safely. Whereas terran has to play extremely risky in order to keep up which zerg can easily punish. | ||
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UltiBahamut
United States102 Posts
1. Timing attacks. For the most part i have to agree that the 4-6 queen build allowed zergs to drone up like they want and this allows for the much scarier mid to late game as zerg will have a lot of economy. But to say that there are no timing attacks i feel is retarded, even with 4-6 queens a good timing attack will overrun it if it isn't spotted or scouted correctly. This can be done easily with the hellions to deny vision. And these timing attacks have to come a bit later to hit a timing before the zerg player finishes droning and before lair tech kicks in. 2. “Unforgiveness” If you want to talk about unforgiveness then lets talk about it. Every point except for the final bullet point has been a weakness of marine tank/terran since the beginning of sc2. And the fact that you talk about it as though it is brand new is surprising to me. Encountering a Zerg army with tanks unsieged. This is the biggest issue with stupid terrans, you have a few different ways to keep a vision ahead of you to tell you to stop a-moving your crap and seige up. These happen to be a scan ahead to spot for my army or even a stimmed marine running forward or down a branch off to make sure the zerg army isn't bearing down on you or flanking you. Also you should never a-move on creep as a ling based army can crash into you before you know it, this is the whole reason why hellion's should be used to deny creep like they have even before the queen range buff. Not to mention that if you keep watching it you can deny a lot and most zergs under gm wont replace creep tumors, especially if you kill the queens. Lowered supply depot (see zergling harass below). This is another thing that has been around since the beginning of sc2. Really not much to talk about because i'll talk about another part of it later when i reach your attention based play. But there are a few ways to counter this, simply watch your minimap. Look at it constantly, you're terran and usually don't have a lot of map vision so when something pops up you should be pretty quick to notice and raise the depos. Daybreak you should have a bunker at your third and your army out at the watch tower. Ohana should have the army at the third with the depos raised at the nat anyways. kind of the same with entombed etc etc. There are ways to get around this, once again i have to say stop being bad and watch your minimap :D Not scanning ahead to scout burrowed banelings. This is actually something i havn't played around enough. But i can understand if you don't know about burrowed banelings then the tactic works out well, if there is burrow baneling play out you can either save up scans or force yourself to build a raven. I think the better choice is getting out a raven because it is either the cost of the raven or 4-5 scans to reach the zerg base on most maps. This should really not hurt your army more than once (even though the first explosion can be game ending) Clumped-up army getting surprise-fungaled. Once again don't a-move forward into a zerg army like a retard. Stim marines ahead to see whats going on, scan etc. The only time a zerg should get a super good fungal is if they incorporate burrow play, be smart and play well and you wont get punished. Also if you do spread out try to get a bit more medivacs as they are generally a good way to counteract the damage from infestors. But still the biggest thing here is scout around your army, if you arnt then you're being an idiot and a-moving forward. So overall the main counter to this is that zergs for the first year before the patch had to learn how to be patient against rine/tank pushes and how to spread out so that siege tanks didn't absolutely rape. This control with lings has carried over to the now because if a zerg a-moves into a well spread terran army like up the ramp at the fourth on Cloud kingdom most likely they will get obliterated. Most of the time zergs win because terran's get ahead of themselves and even after killing the ling army they will clump marines and stim forward and then losing everything to fungals. Be patient, be slow. 3: Infestors I agree completely with infestors, they are hard to kill and they are used against everything terran have.I agree with everything but that you're underestimating the power of cloaked ghosts and nukes. 4:The late game. This one is tricky but when it comes to Bio you are switching places with the zerg. The zerg can not remax on bl/corruptor easily where you can keep pumping out marines/vikings. While yes the cost difference is there it is essentially the same thing when a zerg fights a protoss army pre broodlords. The zerg army dies over and over but deals damage to eventually overwhelm it. But for terran the main threat of the bl/festor army should be the festor which is why in the late game you should really get out a few cloaked ghosts and either snipe or emp the infestors as they WILL be clumped. (Every zerg i watch has them clumped and pretty much no zerg has overseers) and as soon as the fungal is gone if you spread out your bio and collapse in in a concave and not a-move into it then you can win. But i agree that this fight is much harder for terran than it is for zerg. Mech i have to agree with everything you're saying. It is extremely expensive, anyone can tell you that but i kind of feel as though you're hyperbolizing the issues a bit. 5. Attention This is actually the one that i wanted to respond to because this is the major point that i feel that there are flaws in your post. I'm not going to talk about the points that you put up there because they are completely correct, but they are completely part of the terran's view and the reason why i think it is a bit biased. Terran drops This is the equivalent to those burrowed infestor harass as it comes to attention from both sides, Both will que up the drop/its whit it actually being a bit more favored to the terran in the amount of attention as the zerg has to lay down each of the ITs in its que where as the terran simply ques up. When a terran does this they stop watching it until it is almost landed then as it lands they stim and stop paying attention as they should have another drop or a push going on at the same time. If it is a push the terran can now freely push forward further than before while the zerg army and attention is trying to deal with these drops where the terran is free. And once the terran hears the marine cry out for help they jump back, load up and fly off just slightly to be ready to drop again. This is just as bad if not worse than the infestors because for a zerg to get the infestors in they have to start watching as soon as the infestors reach the terran base and be on the look out for missile turrets or any other sort of detection to pull back their infestors at any time. Hellion Run bys. While these are closer to the comment about mutas. the hellions are usually forfeit much like the ling run bys and with out any sort of wall for the zerg to raise at any point to block even if they spot it incoming. If they are forfeit then they can be ran into a mineral line and completely destroy it before the terran looks back at them to either retreat or continue on (assuming they arn't surrounded by ling/roach. Nukes These are very rare as terrans refuse to get ghosts. But this is probably one of the most effective harass that the terran has if they can drop more than 1 at a time and it is VERY easy to do attention wise. Make 1-3 ghosts, make 1-3 nukes, Cloak the ghosts and que up nuke and forget about them. Where as the zerg hears the sound or the alert and has to drop everything they are doing and find the nuke, evacuate it keep it there until the nuke drops then come back and move the units like drone back to mining. The nukes even kill larvae which is huge for this part of the game. There are of course different types of harass and most of them from the terran don't require a lot of attention but they are really not used as well as they are extremely expensive like vikings landing or ravens dropping auto turrets. But these are out of the way for terran and so most dont. Its like most zergs don't get burrow so terran's really don't have to worry to much about burrowed infestors or burrowed banes where as the drops and hellions are easily there for terran to do their harass. Conclusion: I'm not trying to say the game is balanced, but my point here is that terran's are their own race and have their own ways to control the zerg. Just most terran's get ahead of themselves and lose to the zerg strengths, play smart and use all of your race's skills and you may find a lot more zerg will crumble. Also HotS adds widow mine drops which is immensely hard to deal with :D TL:DR Terran has just as many attention controllers if not more than zerg, Please look at both sides when making a post please :D | ||
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pigmanbear
Angola2010 Posts
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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decado90
United States480 Posts
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Snow948
Germany83 Posts
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honkeybeef
United States143 Posts
On December 28 2012 06:27 Snow948 wrote: I really like the discussion here. I see good points from every site of the medal. Overall, in my opinion, the Therad Writer is right, that are some big issues in TvZ. But I'm hoping that Blizzard fix these soon enough. Before everyone goes to LoL T_T | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
Too late for that imo. | ||
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