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Blizzard just announced that they are applying a patch which will (a) reduce the range of a fungal from 9 to 8, (b) decrease infested terran egg health from 100 to 70, and (c) remove the Raven’s seeker missile upgrade.
It’s been all of two hours since this change was rolled out, but I am going to assert that this isn’t enough.
At the highest level of play, Terran versus Zerg has been broken since the queen patch 5+ months ago. However, rather than complain, or suggest radical changes, I’d prefer instead to review exactly why (in my humble opinion) TvZ is a broken matchup, and invite/encourage discussion from there. Some of the assertions contained herein have been made before, although others have not been broadly discussed at all. Regardless, I have yet to see a consolidated collection of what is wrong with TvZ and it is with this intention that I am writing.
That being said, keep in mind that the following analysis applies only to the matchup at high masters and above. Below that level, improvements to mechanics and basic decision-making skills will yield wins, period. One of the reasons that Blizzard has been so resistant to applying even minor changes to Wings of Liberty since mid-2012 is because the matchups are essentially well-balanced for the lower 98% of players. Granted, they are giving Zerg some attention now, but in my opinion they’re really not addressing the crux of what’s going wrong with the Terran versus Zerg matchup; a small nerf to infestors and removing the cost of seeker missile will not fix things.
Bio – about me
+ Show Spoiler +I’m a mid-high masters Terran (I’ve finished top 8 more than once). Some of you may have seen me sporadically cast games with Halby over at his channel on youtube. I’ve appeared in a few small tournaments in the New England area, but I am by and large a casual player. I live in Boston, am old (31), and have a relatively low APM given my level of play.
Evidence that the matchup is broken
+ Show Spoiler +Blizzard recently stated that the game is essentially well-balanced at all levels of play. It’s this statement, among a handful of others between developer forum-posts and interviews, which inspired me to write this article. If they truly believe that the matchups are equal, they’re ignoring some pretty significant trends. For starters. their own tournament sported a meager 12.5% Terran representation, none of which made it past the RO16. I won’t belabor this point since it has been repeatedly made, although I will offer the following additional pieces of research which support my claim: IPL5 winratesRace winrates at major tournaments over the past 4 monthsRecent Lings of Liberty thread on Team LiquidIf you take the aforementioned list of examples as indicative of the unequal TvZ pairing (as I do), then the next logical question would be: what exactly is going wrong? Well, I'm glad you asked. The reasons- or at the very least, the symptoms- behind this unequal skew can be summed up by exploring the following five themes in detail: (1) Timing Attacks, (2) “ Unforgiveness”, (3) Infestors, (4) The Late Game, and (5) Attention Imbalances.
1.) Timing Attacks
+ Show Spoiler +About five months ago, Blizzard extended the queen attack range by 66%, thereby giving Zergs a vicious new increase in defensibility. A new meta-game quickly emerged: Zergs found that by building 4-6 queens early on, they could spend nearly all of their larvae on drones while simultaneously being safe from the vast majority of Terran timing attacks. After several months of failed attempts to break this build, Terrans finally reasoned that the only solution was an equally economically-aggressive opening; the 3-OC Hellion-Banshee was born, and with it, a (temporary) equalization of win-rates between the two races.
However, while supposedly providing some equilibrium to the metagame, there remained some striking differences between these two openings which ultimately illustrated that they were not equal in strength. First and foremost, Terran remained quite vulnerable doing the 3 OC opening, whereas Zerg, with their 4-6 transfusing queens, did not. As such, Zergs quickly caught on to Terran’s greed, and punished it with nydus, ling-runbys, and assorted forms of all-ins. Within weeks, the fleeting equilibrium in win-rates shifted once again, back in favor of Zerg.
All of that is to say that timing attacks for Terran were (and are) no longer reliably effective versus Zerg. TvZ is presently the only matchup where timing attacks do not work. When a Zerg plays beyond economic greed (such as using all of the queens for creep tumors rather than saving the energy to transfuse), they become vulnerable again. However, this is a rarity in practice.
TL;DR: Zerg can punish Terran greed, but Terran cannot reliably punish Zerg greed in kind.
2.) “Unforgiveness”
+ Show Spoiler +The term “unforgiving” has been circulating a lot recently among forums for Terran players. The general consensus is that there are simply too many common, benign mistakes— a Terran player looking away from an army for a fraction of a second, for example—that end the game in the Zerg’s favor. In general (excepting tier 3 armies, which will be covered later) a Zerg’s army can always retreat from a Terran’s army, but not visa-versa. Fungals and a speed/mobility advantage means Zerg players have more options regarding if/when to engage a Terran force. Good creep spread—a staple of any high-level Zerg player—gives the Zerg plenty of cheap forewarning of a pending Terran attack as well. Additional examples of common game-ending Terran snafus in TvZ include: - Encountering a Zerg army with tanks unsieged.
- Lowered supply depot (see zergling harass below).
- Not scanning ahead to scout burrowed banelings.
- Clumped-up army getting surprise-fungaled.
By contrast, the most costly mistakes a Zerg can make in the current meta-game revolve solely around infestor miscontrol. Although these can and do occur, they are less likely and common than the previously cited Terran examples. The aforementioned article on the the rise of Zerg offers additional support to my claims above, and includes some interesting statistics on Terran versus Zerg play between Korean and Foreign players. TL;DR: The potential for unrecoverable mishaps made by Terrans are far greater than those made by Zergs within a typical TvZ game. oops!
3.) Infestors
+ Show Spoiler +No TvZ imbalance thread would be complete without a section on infestors. Unsurprisingly, they have been a staple Zerg unit in ZvT over the past several months. Let’s look at why: - Infestors are strong versus all Terran compositions from the mid-game and beyond. Unlike ravens, they are helpful immediately upon finishing, especially with the pathogen glands (starting energy) upgrade, and stay viable—even increasing in value as they survive and reserve energy—throughout the game.
- Infestors are very difficult for Terran to kill. Fungal, infested terran, and neural parasite mean that it has no natural hard counters in the Terran force. Furthermore, while cloaked banshees are good low-attention unit to provoke a high-attention response from infestors (see the Attention section below), their high cost makes them an expensive option in practice. Ghosts are a theoretical counter, but serve no other practical purpose in a Terran’s army, are very difficult to micro properly (while also splitting, sieging, and performing other Terran micro-necessities), and very susceptible to fungal. Ravens with seeker missile are another oft-suggested counter, but they require a significant up-front investment before they become viable (starports, tech labs, and worst of all, all of that precious Time spent waiting for raven energy to accrue). Finally, since fungals outrange seeker missile (even with the new patch), good infestor control can keep ravens at bay indefinitely.
TL;DR: Infestors remain a strong unit versus all Terran compositions without a reasonable counter in response.
4.) The Late Game
+ Show Spoiler +In order to compete against Zerg production in the late game, Terran is required to spend an inordinate amount of money on infrastructure. This has been a dynamic—not necessarily a problem—of the matchup since day 1. What this means, however, is that Terran players must commit to bio or mech early on, so as not to waste a large amount of money on infrastructure that will be useless to them in the end game. I will briefly review each of these tech paths and how they become problematic in the late game for TvZ. For Zerg, I will focus on the infestor/brood lord composition, since this is generally the most common (and the most deadly) late game ZvT approach. Bio + Show Spoiler +Marines and tanks, with two engineering bays. (This composition is sometimes used without tanks as well, although the end result is similar in both scenarios). The bulk of this infrastructure is inevitably reactored barracks, which naturally produce marines. Marines, however, are soundly countered by ultralisk, broodlord, and infestor play. A lot of Terran pros have been able to capitalize on the mobility of bio to harass while the slow tier-3 Zerg army rolls across the field, but this is not a reliably effective approach, and Terran will eventually need to deal with the broodlord/infestor mass regardless. In short, while this composition allows Terran to compete with a Zerg in the mid-game, it results in a very awkward Terran position once Zerg tier 3 units have completed.
In addition, a Zerg infestor/brood army is extremely high value, meaning that when both armies are maxed out (often around 18 or 19 minutes if play has been mostly passive until then), a Terran bio force will rarely reach 8,000 or 9,000 (including both minerals and gas) whereas an infestor/brood army typically exceeds 17,000 or 18,000 in value. And in the simplest terms, army A cannot beat army B if it is less than half its value, no matter what units are involved or how good your micro is. Since Terran has already committed to bio, it has no viable options for tangling with the Infestor/Brood force.
Oh, yes, Terran can make starports and swap them onto the reactors and spam Vikings. But, infestors and corruptors comfortably counter this style of play, and it leaves a Terran vulnerable to follow-up tech switches, regardless. Mech + Show Spoiler +The mech composition is the only Terran mix that allows Terran to compete with the value of a Zerg infestor/brood army. Thors, ravens, banshees, and tanks are all very expensive per unit space, and as such, allow Terran the opportunity to build toward a value-heavy 200 unit-space army.
Mech comes with its own set of difficulties, however. Because factories, armories, and starports are extremely expensive to build, Terrans who choose mech early on struggle to invest in enough production (to produce army), enough army (to defend against mid-game Zerg aggression), and enough upgrades (to be viable in the late game).
Even when a Terran has managed to survive going mech into the late game, they are typically faced with a host of vulnerabilities. Without a cheap static defense or mobile army, ling runbys, nydus play, and drops can continually assault Terran wherever there is not an army, ultimately wearing Terran down harassment-style. TL;DR: Terran has no comfortable late-game option TvZ. Zerg’s ability to continually build towards a “value-heavy” 200 unit-space army gives them a definitive advantage in the late game.
5.) Attention-as-Resource
+ Show Spoiler +We can think about Starcraft as a competition of resources; each player is attempting to leverage their own set of resources to overcome their opponent’s. There are the obvious resources in SCII such as economy, army, and production. There are also the not-so-obvious (but just as critical) resources of attention and actions per minute (APM). Attention is a close cousin to APM, but yet is distinctly different. Loosely defined, attention is the resource required to actively look at a situation in order to adequately respond. It’s a combination of situation assessment and action execution. One of the most effective aspects of harassment in any matchup is that it is usually a low-attention attack tactic (drop, ling runby, warp prism warp-in) that necessitates a high-attention response by the opponent (looking at attack, judging how much of a threat it is, examining army, deciding what to pull back if anything, pulling it back, then micro-ing the army once it has retreated to the point of attack some moments later). As an example, mutalisk harassment is generally roughly a 1:1 ratio as far as attention goes, meaning that the Zerg needs to spend just as much attention to avoid turrets and the defending army as the Terran does to find and defend against the mutas. However, while the muta example above is equally balanced, it is unfortunately the exception rather than the rule as Zerg has a far greater arsenal of low-risk viable options for harassment which provoke a disproportional response in required attention from Terrans. Specifically: - Base prevention. Most Terran players would describe a burrowed ling (or an overlord pooping creep, or general creep spread) at a desired-expansion site annoying. I would describe it additionally as attention-consuming. In the case of a ling, a Terran may move a base to an expansion site and attempt to land it, but not know for some time that the landing has been denied. This requires the Terran to
- examine the base,
- look for the source of the block (ovie? Unburrowed ling? Burrowed ling?),
- move a clearing unit into position
- come back to the base later when the unit is in position,
- execute a valuable scan to kill the ling, and
- return the unit to the pack.
None of these actions are difficult, but they do amount to a large amount of attention, especially considering the multi-step process of the task and the minimal attention required on the part of the Zerg who placed the burrowed ling there in the first place. Waiting for creep to recede from a base creates yet another step of required attention before the delay has been fully dealt with.
- Ling runbys. Lings are fast! They’re often a blink away from charging into your main or mineral line. It doesn’t matter how 1337 you are, if you are a Terran you know what I am talking about; Terran needs to have lowered Supply Depots to successfully rally their army without forcing attention-consuming raising/lowering of depots. This, plus the fact that Terran is the only race without cheap, zero unit space, static defense means that the Terran’s main base is almost always defenseless against a Zergling pillage-fest. Because lings can burrow and sneakily hide in various corners, it can often require multiple iterations of army retreating scenarios in order to deal with this threat fully. While a Terran is waiting for their defending army to get back to their base, they will often need to lift buildings and re-rally SCVs, all of which require attentive focus (both on the front end and on the back when the buildings are put back into place). In general, a Terran’s base requires more attention than any of the three races to rebuild and zerglings are one of the best units out there for creating just the right circumstances to necessitate this attention-consuming process (and generally making a royal mess of things).
- Burrowed infestor harass. Burrowed infestors and roaches are the only units in the game that can move invisibly without being detected by the human eye. This makes infestor harass particularly brutal as it cannot be anticipated without ample cloak detection. More importantly, however, is that burrowed infestors in a Terran’s main have the most lopsided attention ratio of any form of harassment in Starcraft II. A few sets of infestors can move unseen from corner to corner of the Terran’s base, requiring multiple scans, turrets, and often multiple trips back home to finally rid the main of them for good. By contrast, this form of harassment requires very little attention from Zerg: they need simply to look at their infestors in order to spam infested terrans every once and awhile, then move the infestors to a new hiding spot. Other than this, there is very little that Zergs need to focus on with their harassing infestors relative to the attention it requires from the Terran to deal with them.
TL;DR: Harassment tactics from Zerg require a disproportionately larger amount of attention for Terran to deal with than Terran harassment does for a Zerg player.
Conclusions
+ Show Spoiler +I feel it is important to state explicitly that I have nothing but the highest respect for the developers at Blizzard. Starcraft II has sustained my interest longer than any other game in my extensive game-playing career, and I have the folks at Blizzard to thank for this. They are a creative bunch who put extensive thought and planning into their game, and it’s clear they’re passionate about the result.
I honestly don’t have any significant opinions on how to modify the game to account for some of the imbalances that I have described in this article. I think the development team at Blizzard really excels at coming up with fresh solutions to balance problems. My concern lately, however, is that Blizzard isn’t paying close enough attention to what is broken at the high level of play in TvZ matchups specifically, and as such, their proposed solutions (so far) have been largely inadequate. The development of Heart of the Swarm has further enhanced my concern; they are introducing several more late-game options for Zerg (ultra burrow, blinding cloud, abduct), without giving Terran anything new to deal with them in the late game. (Only the widow mine: another unit that has low value given its unit space requirement).
This is obviously a Terran post written by a Terran-loving Terran player. It is not, however, my intention to whine or complain, and I’ve strived to make my conclusions as objective as possible. Most of my assertions have already been made by players far better and smarter than I am.
But please, feel free to disagree with me! If my language or examples seem too Terran-leaning, I welcome counter-examples. Rather than insist that points 1-5 are absolutely true for all high masters+ Terran (versus Zerg) players, I'm more trying to paint a broad picture of a general imbalance. If you feel as though I have under-represented Terran advantages in the matchup, I am open to hearing your contrasting opinions (especially if your experience is first-hand at the high level of play).
Nebbish over and out.
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this is funny cuz protoss isnt as good as terran and zerg as well i think toss needs a buff
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On December 05 2012 11:20 DaNkS wrote:
this is funny cuz protoss isnt as good as terran and zerg as well i think toss needs a buff
Protoss is doing wonderfully against zerg compared to terran.
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On December 05 2012 11:20 DaNkS wrote:
this is funny cuz protoss isnt as good as terran and zerg as well i think toss needs a buff
You read fast man!
On-topic I think it was a good read, and especially the attention section is something I really agree with you on!
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The problem with TvZ is balance whine.
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On December 05 2012 11:33 chadissilent wrote:
The problem with TvZ is balance whine.
Yea man, zergs never whine...
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So you assert that a plus 2 range to queens has broken the matchup but then assert that the much more dramatic changes here announced arent enough? Small changes have large effects. This has been demonstrated firsthand by this queen buff. Why can nobody just sit back and see how things go for a bit?
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I was just brainstorming and came up with the idea for Terran. If Terrans could build auto turrets, would it in turn provide a safe reliable fight against long runbies thoughts?
Great thread BTW. Lings of liberty didn't persuade me as much ad this.
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On December 05 2012 11:35 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:33 chadissilent wrote:
The problem with TvZ is balance whine. Yea man, zergs never whine...
Of course they don't! With broodlordinfestor zergs don't really have a reason to complain. 
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Hmm, you say the changes aren't fixing the game itself. Blizzard is saying so itself. I'm not getting your point here, HotS will "fix" it.
If you look at the numbers, i really think this was a good step in a right direction with Tanks 2shotting Eggs with +1 and so on.
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Honestly, my gut feeling is that TvZ is still imbalanced... how can reducing Fungal range by 1 possibly stop all the Infestor/BL spam which seems to crush through any Terran army?
I remember when lategame PvT was considered imbalanced because of Protoss's splash damage options. At that time, I was angry at Blizzard for not addressing our concerns and I genuinely felt that Terrans could not beat Protoss lategame without a balance patch.
Now, a few months later, I realize that no patch was needed. I will admit that I was wrong. And I can be wrong again.
No matter what my gut feeling says, I want to stick with the patch for a while and play it out, see how it feels. I want to see how Code S Koreans make use of this small change, I want to see if the matchup can shift in momentum.
No one is perfect at balancing games! If Blizzard were perfect, StarCraft 2 would already have been balanced, but you have to admit that StarCraft 2's balance isn't outright unplayable... I think we should let some time pass before we cry out "Nerf Zerg" again.
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The problem I have with the matchup (from a zerg perspective) is that Terran after the queen range buff is now the reactive race. Terran scouts fast third -> terran has to go fast 3 CC, terran scouts 2 base tech -> terran needs to throw down more infrastructure and prepare for a multitude of different builds including roach queen nydus all in, huge roach/baneling push, mutas, infestors, ect. Not only does Terran have to react to our opener, but they also have to react to what we build in the late game, Terran scouts BL -> needs vikings, Terran scouts ultras -> need marauders/more tanks/thors. Wasn't Zerg designed to be the reactive race?
The only way that this will be fixed is if the queen range buff is reverted, or queen health takes a nerf (they would still trade cost effectively vs hellions). Anyways, it isn't the race I fell in love with and I've been playing mostly random lately because the queen feels like too much of a crutch.
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Listen, I like the points, they are good points that I myself would make, albeit in a more conservative way(for example " the raven, unlike infestor" part is worthless to me because you assume ravens play the same role as infestors or something)
i disagree with the premise that it's not enough. Simply put, if you saved this OP, waited two weeks of SC2, and nothing evidently had changed, your premise would be proven. As it stands, your post is a little bit more than fashionably late to the party, rather too late.
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The Lings of Liberty thread is a troll, lol. It's statistics are laughable. Also, IPL5 had huge Zerg saturation going into it which makes the results pretty inevitable. And you have those exact IPL5 numbers covering a lot of the gap in your overall race winrates in the last 4 months. Should check the seeding on each of th ose to get a better feel for the whole story. Numbers have stories behidn them. Just taking whoevers graphs look like it supports what you think isn't really reflective of someone having dedication to the full, exact story involved. For every tournament you're showing that has zerg favored saturation, or win rates, or championship wins; There are tournaments that show the exact same for other races. Please make some effort to be honest with yourself, and subsequently the people you talk to, about what's going on.
Also, nothing you've said is original. You make a mistake and lose? Welcome to Starcraft 2. Every race has examples of this happening - it takes some pretty vibrantly tinted whine-goggles to think that this reality is unique to the Terran race. Seriously, the people who bring up this 'point' are desperately in need of a clue and some form of basic ability to view things outside of their bias.
Also, it looks like you have outdated writing on an Infestor which has now been nerfed, and are so committed to whining that you haven't bothered to change this. Other than to put "(still)" in your title. I'll leave it to you to figure out, in time, how significant the infestor changes are.
Timing attacks and queen complaints? We pay for those queens, and if zergs weren't shutting down your attacks with those, they would be using roaches and lings instead. It's not as if Z were just sitting around ready to be shit on by a ton of early game aggressive moves by Terran, and with a queen buff that all suddenly became impotent. Early game aggression is just universally an easy thing to scout and handle. If it wasn't, we'd all use it non-stop. But it is. Furthermore, it's not like queens stand up to stuff and say you shall not pass! There are tons of situations where Zerg is naked behind their queens, not even making a spine anymore, or a baneling nest or a roach warren.
Your attention-as-a-resource bit seems founded on the presupposition that Terran is more apm intensive than Z, and your proofs or examples seem to be numbers pulled right from your butt and delivered with confidence. That's not going to work. Do you want to hear me whine about how you can cue up 3 dropships and not look at them while I have to scramble to deal with all the chaos that causes in one unified moment for me? No, you don't, and I don't want to talk about it, because it doesn't actually matter. You need to get over these arbitrary notions for all things having to be, in every way, equal. The races are not designed that way, and the game would be boring if they were. We all have our own unique shit to deal with. Again, for all the examples you put forward in favor of one race, they can be made for the other races. Please realize this.
As for the late g ame, the infestor nerf is quite relevant, as is the seeker missile buff. You're probably into the trend of laughing at that buff, as if its meaningless, because you refuse to acknowledge or be open minded to what it does for your race. It's not just a resource buff, but through that, a buff to the speed and accessability of having seeker missile splashed into your game, sooner than ever and cheaper than ever. Seeker missile has already been getting a ton of use in recent, and to great effect. We've all seen it. So quit pretending you're fucked and nothing is improving or changing so that you can enjoy the sound of your own whining. That isn't going to help you or your community, not at all.
I'm not going to address the late game at large with you, because that would take a ton of time to do comprehensively, and I can't say that you have made the impression of someone who really understands what is going on, nor do you come off as particularly open-minded for your race. You come off as someone dead set on feeling screwed. You must rage a lot, and therefor need a lot of consolation at the racial level, so that you can bypass having to acknowledge your own mistakes.
Deal with it. /sunglasses
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On December 05 2012 11:36 Insomni7 wrote:
So you assert that a plus 2 range to queens has broken the matchup but then assert that the much more dramatic changes here announced arent enough? Small changes have large effects. This has been demonstrated firsthand by this queen buff. Why can nobody just sit back and see how things go for a bit?
We have. For about a year now. Zerg winning 60% of Z v Ts. Seems like nothing needs to be done and that everything is fine. (Please note sarcasm)
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I love the points you make. I'm on board. Full speed ahead captain!
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On December 05 2012 11:39 Entirety wrote:
Honestly, my gut feeling is that TvZ is still imbalanced... how can reducing Fungal range by 1 possibly stop all the Infestor/BL spam which seems to crush through any Terran army?
I remember when lategame PvT was considered imbalanced because of Protoss's splash damage options. At that time, I was angry at Blizzard for not addressing our concerns and I genuinely felt that Terrans could not beat Protoss lategame without a balance patch.
Now, a few months later, I realize that no patch was needed. I will admit that I was wrong. And I can be wrong again.
No matter what my gut feeling says, I want to stick with the patch for a while and play it out, see how it feels. I want to see how Code S Koreans make use of this small change, I want to see if the matchup can shift in momentum.
No one is perfect at balancing games! If Blizzard were perfect, StarCraft 2 would already have been balanced, but you have to admit that StarCraft 2's balance isn't outright unplayable... I think we should let some time pass before we cry out "Nerf Zerg" again.
Just a thought, range 8 actually makes a significant difference. Vikings have 1 range to play around with now, so either you get free shots on broodlord/infestor, or the infestors extend past the broodlords (by ~1 range) and you can snipe/EMP them to shit. Not saying it's game-changing, but it's a good help. Also, I'm under the impression that given time Terrans can deal with blord/infestor, it's the ultra/bane transition that wins the game on big maps/when Terran is good.
I can't say anything about balance (haven't played it).
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LOL man idk why terran is complaining terran is sooo OP terran tier 1 units can pwn zerg and protoss tier 3 units
User was banned for this post.
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The main problem in all match ups, and the game itself, is that you can put too many units in one control group.
Being able to have a lot of units in one control group makes handling very big armies way too easy, hence making micro-intensive play like drops easy to stop at high levels of play.
Grouping unlimited units also promotes "Death ball" approaches, and losing your whole army in one fight (unless you're protoss, or zerg with a healthy economy and macro), usually means the end of the game for you.
which leads me to the next point, the unforgiveness of the game leads to stall games, where both players are just amassing a huge army for a big encounter (Zerg vs any race comes to mind), and also makes super powerfull "hero" units like the mothership.
Yeah, infestors are a big, big problem, but they're mainly to their versatility, meaning they pretty much cover all the roles a zerg army could want a caster for:
- Harass
- Pushing
- Defense
- Counters air / ground
Armor and damage types also help unbalance things further, because the bonus damage to units is way too big, making some units useless against others, and making this game too much of an "rock paper sissors" type of game, where if you choose the right unit and remain un-scouted you can win very easy.
that's the second issue, only one race can viably scout all game long, zerg has too many ways to scout with
1. Overlords (they move way too fast)
2. Creep tummors
3. Zerglings
which basically makes them the only race that knows whats going on all game long, unlike terran or protoss that have to play guessing most of the time, since sometimes scanning or getting an observer first can be way too problematic (resources wasted), and they also come kinda late).
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I can't take PvZ winrates very seriously. The amount of wins toss gets from the immortal-sentry is stupid high (relative to losses), and the wins zerg gets from going lategame turtle unkillable-army is also ridic high (relative to losses). The rates are so skewed, that you need to pull data from game-time wins I feel
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IN their own tournament alot of terrans didn't even try to qualifiy , thats why there were so few.
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hahaha its funny how PVZ as zerg you can easily just 1base baneling all in and win LOL its ridiculous and if you see immortal/ling its really OP against any race man once you have that massive muta count you cant do nothing about it..... stalkers dps is to slow to mutas high dps and splash damage. the only thing is storm but mutas can fly really fast and be annoying. and 60% of the time dodge the storm and take minimal damage.
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On December 05 2012 12:00 DaNkS wrote:
hahaha its funny how PVZ as zerg you can easily just 1base baneling all in and win LOL its ridiculous and if you see immortal/ling its really OP against any race man once you have that massive muta count you cant do nothing about it..... stalkers dps is to slow to mutas high dps and splash damage. the only thing is storm but mutas can fly really fast and be annoying. and 60% of the time dodge the storm and take minimal damage.
Just playing devil's advocate here:
1. Are all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing? I'm doubtful, it keeps the opponent honest, so I tend to miss the point of the baneling all in complain.
2. If lings were the counter to immortals and mutalisks were unable to be dealt with by protoss, why wouldn't we see this often compared to the ubiquitous BL/infestor? I know this is a thread claiming grievances with the zerg race, but I fail to see how you contribute opinions with any support.
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LOL i live in the real world kind of funny as fuck! zerg can easily rape toss and so can terran LOL! Terran tier 1 units rape soo fucking much the only thing you can do is tech really high but MMM with ghost and vikings rapes best toss army LOL! you tell me what can beat MMM ghost vikings and seige tanks LOL!
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On December 05 2012 11:39 Thienan567 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:35 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 05 2012 11:33 chadissilent wrote:
The problem with TvZ is balance whine. Yea man, zergs never whine... Of course they don't! With broodlordinfestor zergs don't really have a reason to complain.
2010-2011
On December 05 2012 11:33 chadissilent wrote:
The problem with TvZ is balance whine.
as well as the people who whine about others whining.
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The problem is terran had been figured out long time ago by zerg knowing when to drone/upgrade. Then getting less options vs zerg from patch to patch, unable to play in a different styles causes boring games. While zerg players learned to play better and better over time not to mention the buff they got.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 05 2012 11:48 Dontkillme wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:36 Insomni7 wrote:
So you assert that a plus 2 range to queens has broken the matchup but then assert that the much more dramatic changes here announced arent enough? Small changes have large effects. This has been demonstrated firsthand by this queen buff. Why can nobody just sit back and see how things go for a bit? We have. For about a year now. Zerg winning 60% of Z v Ts. Seems like nothing needs to be done and that everything is fine. (Please note sarcasm)
Wow you don't understand what he is saying at all. He is saying clearly a small change like 2+ range for Queens had a HUGE effect. So we should see how these small changes work, maybe they have a pretty big effect as well. The patch just came out, you haven't been waiting for about a year now for this new change. Give it time.
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On December 05 2012 11:47 Lumi wrote:
Also, nothing you've said is original.
As I mentioned (did you read the article?), this post was meant to be a collection of what has already been said, not a collection of new ideas.
On December 05 2012 11:47 Lumi wrote:
You come off as someone dead set on feeling screwed. You must rage a lot, and therefor need a lot of consolation at the racial level, so that you can bypass having to acknowledge your own mistakes.
Actually, I like imbalance in Starcraft II, especially when it's favored away from my primary race; it gives me a challenge, something to explore, and something to analyze. Although TvZ has (of course) driven me nuts at times, it's also been my favorite matchup to play for the past six months.
And for the record, I gg after every game.
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very well written, and a great read
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On December 05 2012 11:48 Dontkillme wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:36 Insomni7 wrote:
So you assert that a plus 2 range to queens has broken the matchup but then assert that the much more dramatic changes here announced arent enough? Small changes have large effects. This has been demonstrated firsthand by this queen buff. Why can nobody just sit back and see how things go for a bit? We have. For about a year now. Zerg winning 60% of Z v Ts. Seems like nothing needs to be done and that everything is fine. (Please note sarcasm)
Are you serious? Did you read what I said? I said that we should see how the patch changes things before we make threads like this. And that number is silly. It only indicates that balance shifted. The only real indicator of balance is after win rates have fallen back to 50-50, seeing how many of each race qualify for the premier tournaments like GSL and OSL.
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Terrans finally reasoned that the only solution was an equally economically-aggressive opening; the 3-OC Hellion-Banshee was born, and with it, a (temporary) equalization of win-rates between the two races.
I agree that this is the reason the TvZ meta got stuck where it is, but new effective timings are out there to be found. Check out this recent Day9 daily for an example: http://day9.tv/d/Day9/polts-tvz-beat-the-imba/
I think Terrans are on the road to figuring out how to pressure in the early game. Of course, that means little if there's no late game solution, but I think the infestor nerfs go a long way to addressing this. There's a lot of little reasons.
For instance, infested terran eggs taking two tank shots to kill instead of three means less potential friendly fire damage. Fewer infested terrans will survive to do any damage in general.
Also the fungal range reduction will make infestors more likely to die in general. As a result they'll become less cost-effective, meaning either fewer infestors or fewer broodlords/ultras/banelings late game. And then there's all the units that have more chance to be effective at their jobs (e.g. vikings, ravens) because the infestors are dead or tripping over each other. Ghosts now have a range advantage on infestors as well.
So...we'll see. As a spectator, I'm looking forward to seeing TvZ change.
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Thanks for the comments so far guys...really enjoying reading through your thoughts. (and the complements are of course appreciated!)
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I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game.
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On December 05 2012 12:05 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 12:00 DaNkS wrote:
hahaha its funny how PVZ as zerg you can easily just 1base baneling all in and win LOL its ridiculous and if you see immortal/ling its really OP against any race man once you have that massive muta count you cant do nothing about it..... stalkers dps is to slow to mutas high dps and splash damage. the only thing is storm but mutas can fly really fast and be annoying. and 60% of the time dodge the storm and take minimal damage. Just playing devil's advocate here: 1. Are all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing? I'm doubtful, it keeps the opponent honest, so I tend to miss the point of the baneling all in complain. 2. If lings were the counter to immortals and mutalisks were unable to be dealt with by protoss, why wouldn't we see this often compared to the ubiquitous BL/infestor? I know this is a thread claiming grievances with the zerg race, but I fail to see how you contribute opinions with any support.
1. I don`t remember which game was in GSL, but some terran did proxy 11/11, zerg did not scout it and 3 hatch before pool... No need to say who won, right? So I don`t buy the "all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing"? Hell we`re talking about GSL player, proxying 11/11 vs a THREE HATCH BEFORE POOL, UNSCOUTED
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On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game.
As much as I'm all for change, and I'm too new to the game to have played before 3 queen range, but weren't hellions the most overpowered shit in the game?
You could deny Zerg's third while taking a third of your own for free, and Zerg had to invest >300 minerals defensively just to survive the first 4-6 hellions? That's like Protoss having to build 2 more cannons to defend the first few lings of Zerg, seems kind of bullshit.
Like my impression was that not only did hellions deny Zerg's third base (which is OK), but they could also trade effectively for drones, every time.
Just providing the counterargument, again I never played back then.
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I have a problem with the part about the timing attacks. Every race has timing attacks that work against specific reactions made by your opponent. However, for any race when your push is scouted, the attack can be countered or held off because gamers now understand the proper reactions to each type of push. And because Terrans don't have a unit composition with synergy as strong as Sentry-Immortal, they don't have a push that can work almost single handedly because of the map. So saying that you can't timing attack them is only correct in the sense that you can't timing attack anybody if they scout and react properly.
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On December 05 2012 12:31 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. As much as I'm all for change, and I'm too new to the game to have played before 3 queen range, but weren't hellions the most overpowered shit in the game? You could deny Zerg's third while taking a third of your own for free, and Zerg had to invest >300 minerals defensively just to survive the first 4-6 hellions? That's like Protoss having to build 2 more cannons to defend the first few lings of Zerg, seems kind of bullshit. Like my impression was that not only did hellions deny Zerg's third base (which is OK), but they could also trade effectively for drones, every time. Just providing the counterargument, again I never played back then.
Not really.. Hellions just added a little bit to the zergs attention early game: microing the spine to move forward with queen support, etc... zergs could open 4 queens, 2 for creep and semi-wall, 2 for injects... and "leapfrog" their spines... i`ve been masters forever in this game and thats what they were starting to do... also going for some quick 3 roaches and shoo the hellions..
hell, now that we are playing 1 rax FE zergs ARE making roaches! So whats the problem of making roaches back with reactor expand??
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On December 05 2012 12:30 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 12:05 Bippzy wrote:On December 05 2012 12:00 DaNkS wrote:
hahaha its funny how PVZ as zerg you can easily just 1base baneling all in and win LOL its ridiculous and if you see immortal/ling its really OP against any race man once you have that massive muta count you cant do nothing about it..... stalkers dps is to slow to mutas high dps and splash damage. the only thing is storm but mutas can fly really fast and be annoying. and 60% of the time dodge the storm and take minimal damage. Just playing devil's advocate here: 1. Are all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing? I'm doubtful, it keeps the opponent honest, so I tend to miss the point of the baneling all in complain. 2. If lings were the counter to immortals and mutalisks were unable to be dealt with by protoss, why wouldn't we see this often compared to the ubiquitous BL/infestor? I know this is a thread claiming grievances with the zerg race, but I fail to see how you contribute opinions with any support. 1. I don`t remember which game was in GSL, but some terran did proxy 11/11, zerg did not scout it and 3 hatch before pool... No need to say who won, right? So I don`t buy the "all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing"? Hell we`re talking about GSL player, proxying 11/11 vs a THREE HATCH BEFORE POOL, UNSCOUTED I'm sure you remembered how much damage was dealt before the pool finished.... right?
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On December 05 2012 12:30 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 12:05 Bippzy wrote:On December 05 2012 12:00 DaNkS wrote:
hahaha its funny how PVZ as zerg you can easily just 1base baneling all in and win LOL its ridiculous and if you see immortal/ling its really OP against any race man once you have that massive muta count you cant do nothing about it..... stalkers dps is to slow to mutas high dps and splash damage. the only thing is storm but mutas can fly really fast and be annoying. and 60% of the time dodge the storm and take minimal damage. Just playing devil's advocate here: 1. Are all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing? I'm doubtful, it keeps the opponent honest, so I tend to miss the point of the baneling all in complain. 2. If lings were the counter to immortals and mutalisks were unable to be dealt with by protoss, why wouldn't we see this often compared to the ubiquitous BL/infestor? I know this is a thread claiming grievances with the zerg race, but I fail to see how you contribute opinions with any support. 1. I don`t remember which game was in GSL, but some terran did proxy 11/11, zerg did not scout it and 3 hatch before pool... No need to say who won, right? So I don`t buy the "all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing"? Hell we`re talking about GSL player, proxying 11/11 vs a THREE HATCH BEFORE POOL, UNSCOUTED
I assume you mean the happy game which was horrible executed it wsn't even funny.
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On December 05 2012 12:35 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 12:30 xTrim wrote:On December 05 2012 12:05 Bippzy wrote:On December 05 2012 12:00 DaNkS wrote:
hahaha its funny how PVZ as zerg you can easily just 1base baneling all in and win LOL its ridiculous and if you see immortal/ling its really OP against any race man once you have that massive muta count you cant do nothing about it..... stalkers dps is to slow to mutas high dps and splash damage. the only thing is storm but mutas can fly really fast and be annoying. and 60% of the time dodge the storm and take minimal damage. Just playing devil's advocate here: 1. Are all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing? I'm doubtful, it keeps the opponent honest, so I tend to miss the point of the baneling all in complain. 2. If lings were the counter to immortals and mutalisks were unable to be dealt with by protoss, why wouldn't we see this often compared to the ubiquitous BL/infestor? I know this is a thread claiming grievances with the zerg race, but I fail to see how you contribute opinions with any support. 1. I don`t remember which game was in GSL, but some terran did proxy 11/11, zerg did not scout it and 3 hatch before pool... No need to say who won, right? So I don`t buy the "all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing"? Hell we`re talking about GSL player, proxying 11/11 vs a THREE HATCH BEFORE POOL, UNSCOUTED I'm sure you remembered how much damage was dealt before the pool finished.... right?
It doesnt matter... The point is that the proxied 11/11 is a ridiculously aggressive move, very very allin... the zerg DID NOT SCOUT and went for FREAKING GREEDY 3 hatch and won the game without losing ANY of the hatches...
What was it again?? Aggro > greed > Safe > Aggro?? seems like in tvz : T aggro < Z greed and T greed < Z aggro or Z greed
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On December 05 2012 12:31 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. As much as I'm all for change, and I'm too new to the game to have played before 3 queen range, but weren't hellions the most overpowered shit in the game? You could deny Zerg's third while taking a third of your own for free, and Zerg had to invest >300 minerals defensively just to survive the first 4-6 hellions? That's like Protoss having to build 2 more cannons to defend the first few lings of Zerg, seems kind of bullshit. Like my impression was that not only did hellions deny Zerg's third base (which is OK), but they could also trade effectively for drones, every time. Just providing the counterargument, again I never played back then.
Hellions were used for soft contains. What usually happened is Zerg droned up on 2 hatch, made 12-16 speedlings then took a 3rd. Meanwhile the Terran would be teching to Medivacs on 2 bases. Then pressure while starting 3rd at around 10:30ish.
Blue Flame Hellions were batshit OP when Blizzard changed the upgrade picture from red flame to blue flame. Koreans started making them and then bam nerf.
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On December 05 2012 12:38 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 12:35 Yorbon wrote:On December 05 2012 12:30 xTrim wrote:On December 05 2012 12:05 Bippzy wrote:On December 05 2012 12:00 DaNkS wrote:
hahaha its funny how PVZ as zerg you can easily just 1base baneling all in and win LOL its ridiculous and if you see immortal/ling its really OP against any race man once you have that massive muta count you cant do nothing about it..... stalkers dps is to slow to mutas high dps and splash damage. the only thing is storm but mutas can fly really fast and be annoying. and 60% of the time dodge the storm and take minimal damage. Just playing devil's advocate here: 1. Are all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing? I'm doubtful, it keeps the opponent honest, so I tend to miss the point of the baneling all in complain. 2. If lings were the counter to immortals and mutalisks were unable to be dealt with by protoss, why wouldn't we see this often compared to the ubiquitous BL/infestor? I know this is a thread claiming grievances with the zerg race, but I fail to see how you contribute opinions with any support. 1. I don`t remember which game was in GSL, but some terran did proxy 11/11, zerg did not scout it and 3 hatch before pool... No need to say who won, right? So I don`t buy the "all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing"? Hell we`re talking about GSL player, proxying 11/11 vs a THREE HATCH BEFORE POOL, UNSCOUTED I'm sure you remembered how much damage was dealt before the pool finished.... right? It doesnt matter... The point is that the proxied 11/11 is a ridiculously aggressive move, very very allin... the zerg DID NOT SCOUT and went for FREAKING GREEDY 3 hatch and won the game without losing ANY of the hatches... What was it again?? Aggro > greed > Safe > Aggro?? seems like in tvz : T aggro < Z greed and T greed < Z aggro or Z greed Ah, so execution does not matter. Okay.
the fact that no hatch was killed is the biggest argument against your point.
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And as to the "Unforgiving Nature" section, if you go 3OC you are being extraordinarily greedy and of course you can be punished. If you get your 3rd CC up before adding on Barracks 2&3, you are doing the Zerg equivalent of Hatch-Pool-Hatch, which is easily punishable. And even if you get it slightly later, you're still very vulnerable to early Roaches or Baneling timings. If you play greedy, which Terrans usually do, you can be punished, but so can Zerg's if they play even more greedy than usual. Also, you listed all of the things that can go wrong with a Terran army vs. Zerg without mentioning that Zerg's 100% need to engage where they want/on their own terms or else they will almost always lose. Think running all your Zerglings into a line of Tanks. They're almost instantly gone, and the opponent didn't even have to "spam f", the Tanks auto-fired. I do think there is a definite end-game balance problem, but the matchup is far more balanced until then than people are willing to admit.
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On December 05 2012 12:38 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 12:35 Yorbon wrote:On December 05 2012 12:30 xTrim wrote:On December 05 2012 12:05 Bippzy wrote:On December 05 2012 12:00 DaNkS wrote:
hahaha its funny how PVZ as zerg you can easily just 1base baneling all in and win LOL its ridiculous and if you see immortal/ling its really OP against any race man once you have that massive muta count you cant do nothing about it..... stalkers dps is to slow to mutas high dps and splash damage. the only thing is storm but mutas can fly really fast and be annoying. and 60% of the time dodge the storm and take minimal damage. Just playing devil's advocate here: 1. Are all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing? I'm doubtful, it keeps the opponent honest, so I tend to miss the point of the baneling all in complain. 2. If lings were the counter to immortals and mutalisks were unable to be dealt with by protoss, why wouldn't we see this often compared to the ubiquitous BL/infestor? I know this is a thread claiming grievances with the zerg race, but I fail to see how you contribute opinions with any support. 1. I don`t remember which game was in GSL, but some terran did proxy 11/11, zerg did not scout it and 3 hatch before pool... No need to say who won, right? So I don`t buy the "all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing"? Hell we`re talking about GSL player, proxying 11/11 vs a THREE HATCH BEFORE POOL, UNSCOUTED I'm sure you remembered how much damage was dealt before the pool finished.... right? It doesnt matter... The point is that the proxied 11/11 is a ridiculously aggressive move, very very allin... the zerg DID NOT SCOUT and went for FREAKING GREEDY 3 hatch and won the game without losing ANY of the hatches... What was it again?? Aggro > greed > Safe > Aggro?? seems like in tvz : T aggro < Z greed and T greed < Z aggro or Z greed
I know it is hard but try to think a for a second. How is it possible to zerg didn't lose hatches? Did he upgraded his drones or something so they did over 9000 ranged damage?
No, it was because the execution was beyond horrible and should NEVER be used to proof anything.
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All your arguments against zerg are fundamental design aspects of the race. You can't change that. This is how it was even in BW. The only 'timing' you could pull of in BW was an early game marine medic push. The way SC2 itself is designed and played, zerg is in fact http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Sauron_(strategy) .
What needs to be absolutely changed are the units. Things like gglords fundamentally breaking siege tanks, by spawning free units on your marines for tanks to kill with FF. And fungal planting units. That is just dumb design.
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Another faulty argument leading to faulty conclusion.
Love the wonderfully scientific qq posts of TL
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On December 05 2012 11:47 Lumi wrote:
The Lings of Liberty thread is a troll, lol. It's statistics are laughable. Also, IPL5 had huge Zerg saturation going into it which makes the results pretty inevitable. And you have those exact IPL5 numbers covering a lot of the gap in your overall race winrates in the last 4 months. Should check the seeding on each of th ose to get a better feel for the whole story. Numbers have stories behidn them. Just taking whoevers graphs look like it supports what you think isn't really reflective of someone having dedication to the full, exact story involved. For every tournament you're showing that has zerg favored saturation, or win rates, or championship wins; There are tournaments that show the exact same for other races. Please make some effort to be honest with yourself, and subsequently the people you talk to, about what's going on.
lol @ logic flaw - and WHY do you think there was a huge Zerg saturation ?
Because Zerg had an easier time defeating their Terran opponents in qualifiers.
I love when people go like "Oh you can't take that tournament as example cause it only had 4 terrans in it" well, wonder WHY ? Maybe cause they all failed to quality ?
By the way I love that at BWC there were only 4 terrans. Said a lot about the state of T.
On December 05 2012 12:44 RParks42 wrote:
And as to the "Unforgiving Nature" section, if you go 3OC you are being extraordinarily greedy and of course you can be punished. If you get your 3rd CC up before adding on Barracks 2&3, you are doing the Zerg equivalent of Hatch-Pool-Hatch, which is easily punishable. And even if you get it slightly later, you're still very vulnerable to early Roaches or Baneling timings. If you play greedy, which Terrans usually do, you can be punished, but so can Zerg's if they play even more greedy than usual. Also, you listed all of the things that can go wrong with a Terran army vs. Zerg without mentioning that Zerg's 100% need to engage where they want/on their own terms or else they will almost always lose. Think running all your Zerglings into a line of Tanks. They're almost instantly gone, and the opponent didn't even have to "spam f", the Tanks auto-fired. I do think there is a definite end-game balance problem, but the matchup is far more balanced until then than people are willing to admit.
You signed up recently and only did posts defending Zergs in all the threads around TL.
You are a very enthusiast Zerg user for sure :D
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On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game.
What's even more interesting is that many of them will even claim it was necessary. If we look at the January-April TvZ stats (using TLPD charts for reference) for Korea, we get:
51/49 in January
57/43 in February
46/54 in March
46/54 in April
International statistics show very close to 50/50 during the same time period, with the biggest disparity being 54/46 in Zerg's favor in March.
This means that in the two months leading up to the queen buff, Zergs were actually favored in Korea, the very place where TL's own Zerg contingent always points to when trying to claim that Terran is still fine and dandy. The overlord buff is something that most of the community (myself included) was fine with, but why they decided to buff queens so massively remains a total mystery to me. It was a point in time where everyone loved watching TvZ and the numbers showed that Zerg was performing well in the matchup at the professional level, and Blizzard killed most of its entertainment value while also paving the road for the imbalanced matchup we have today.
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You guys are so ignorant the patch has been out for a day and everyones calling imbalance. My personal opinion i like to see people come up with crazy new stuff to get over this "zerg imbalance". Just wait and everything will level out. No ones complained about infestors til now and they havent been changed in so long.
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Let's see how things develop before immediately announcing that the patch is not enough. I suspect many of your concerns may be addressed by the advantage of zerg eco (very strong and easy to achieve late game) being devalued by a weakened late game army. I think you should have taken a breath before writing your ill-timed theory craft piece. Why not wait more than "a couple hours" to evaluate the situation and the ramifications of the patch? 
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On December 05 2012 13:00 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. What's even more interesting is that many of them will even claim it was necessary. If we look at the January-April TvZ stats (using TLPD charts for reference) for Korea, we get: 51/49 in January 57/43 in February 46/54 in March 46/54 in April International statistics show very close to 50/50 during the same time period, with the biggest disparity being 54/46 in Zerg's favor in March. This means that in the two months leading up to the queen buff, Zergs were actually favored in Korea, the very place where TL's own Zerg contingent always points to when trying to claim that Terran is still fine and dandy. The overlord buff is something that most of the community (myself included) was fine with, but why they decided to buff queens so massively remains a total mystery to me. It was a point in time where everyone loved watching TvZ and the numbers showed that Zerg was performing well in the matchup at the professional level, and Blizzard killed most of its entertainment value while also paving the road for the imbalanced matchup we have today.
I believe the reason for the queen buff was that the reactor hellion opening was too strong. Terrans did it every game and there was nothing zerg could do to stop it. basically the standard buildorder for terran was too fixed and safe... I mean its ok if something like 14p is standard but not if a buildorder can be played every single game until 7 minutes into the game. in retro perspective 5 might have been too much though and maybe 4 would have been more appropriate
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I'm sorry that Bliz spoiled your thunder by releasing this patch 
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I think the main problem is not that it's so imblalanced but that it's boring to play and boring to watch.
Now, I'm not trying to say SC2 should be like BW, but in BW going Corsair Reaver against zerg could be really op. HOWEVER, this was only if you were really good, I mean really, really good. Even top pros could not pull it off or at least make it look OP all the time. And it was fun to try, because it was hard. Though I always sucked at it.
The thing about infestors is they are a bit op, no honest person can argue otherwise, and they are easy to be op with. The same goes for broolord/infestor, it's a bit op and it's really easy to use in that fashion which makes it kinda boring. Contrary to sair/reaver which is very hard to use yet it is a bit op with done correctly this makes it enjoyable to play and to watch because you can appreciate the skill it requires.
tl;dr BLord/infestor easy and a bit op = boring, Sair/reaver = very hard and a bit op = interesting
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I expected this thread to be started by Avilo.
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On December 05 2012 13:11 coasts wrote:
tl;dr BLord/infestor easy and a bit op = boring, Sair/reaver = very hard and a bit op = interesting
Pretty much this. There's nothing wrong with having super strong things or strategies in the game but then they need to also be difficult to use or execute. I really can't tell the difference from a patchzerg, korean zerg or random master zerg when it comes to the infestor usage (except the multi-pronged harassment and similar things).
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I remember a time when TvZ was the greatest matchup to watch, by far. Now it doesn't even come close to its former self that it was about 8 months ago. Hellion contains, prior to the Queen buff, were good but it wasn't broken. It allowed a safe transition for the Terran into macro play while slowing down the Zergs superior economic macro abilities. Bad Zerg players simply had trouble with Hellions because they relied on 1) lings and 2) bad control to deal with the contain. Good Zerg players either 1) used lings with proper control+spine push+Queens or 2) made 4-5 Roaches and pushed the Hellions away(Stephano did this and would crush face). As someone who watches more than he plays, I don't see how anyone can say that the game is currently more enjoyable from a spectators perspective than it was 8+ months ago, in fact, it is worse in all non-mirror matchups(imo, except maybe TvP but it has stale metagame). The Queen buff allowed certain play styles to become much stronger and we are now seeing the full effects of it.
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First things first. First fix PvZ which is much more broken than TvZ, then we can look at TvZ.
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On December 05 2012 13:06 Kaitokid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 13:00 forsooth wrote:On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. What's even more interesting is that many of them will even claim it was necessary. If we look at the January-April TvZ stats (using TLPD charts for reference) for Korea, we get: 51/49 in January 57/43 in February 46/54 in March 46/54 in April International statistics show very close to 50/50 during the same time period, with the biggest disparity being 54/46 in Zerg's favor in March. This means that in the two months leading up to the queen buff, Zergs were actually favored in Korea, the very place where TL's own Zerg contingent always points to when trying to claim that Terran is still fine and dandy. The overlord buff is something that most of the community (myself included) was fine with, but why they decided to buff queens so massively remains a total mystery to me. It was a point in time where everyone loved watching TvZ and the numbers showed that Zerg was performing well in the matchup at the professional level, and Blizzard killed most of its entertainment value while also paving the road for the imbalanced matchup we have today. I believe the reason for the queen buff was that the reactor hellion opening was too strong. Terrans did it every game and there was nothing zerg could do to stop it. basically the standard buildorder for terran was too fixed and safe... I mean its ok if something like 14p is standard but not if a buildorder can be played every single game until 7 minutes into the game. in retro perspective 5 might have been too much though and maybe 4 would have been more appropriate
Before the Queen buff, major tournaments were skewed towards Terran even if the win rates didn't show it.
http://i.imgur.com/gNBWe.jpg
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
For several months before the Queen buff (May 10th), Terrans were quite dominant. And they were dominating Zerg with basically the same opening build every game with a few 11/11 Rax mixed in. However, after the Queen buff, roles were reversed and Zerg was quite dominant against Terran.
I honestly feel like the Queen buff was a good thing (for balance) and that it would be silly to change it at this point in the game. Although, Terran still feels like it needs a small buff or two. But, we'll have to wait and see what the patch does to the metagame and whether or not it solves Zerg dominance.
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You signed up recently and only did posts defending Zergs in all the threads around TL.
You are a very enthusiast Zerg user for sure :D
I do realize I've been defending Zerg and this may make me seem biased, but let me assure you I'm not. I 100% believe there is an imbalance in TvZ, just that most people's reasoning as to why is either incomplete or flawed. Mainly I think people compare TvZ and PvZ way too much and don't understand why things work differently between the match-up, as each has its own unique pace and set of reactions to decisions
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On December 05 2012 11:47 Lumi wrote:
The Lings of Liberty thread is a troll, lol. It's statistics are laughable. Also, IPL5 had huge Zerg saturation going into it which makes the results pretty inevitable. And you have those exact IPL5 numbers covering a lot of the gap in your overall race winrates in the last 4 months. Should check the seeding on each of th ose to get a better feel for the whole story. Numbers have stories behidn them. Just taking whoevers graphs look like it supports what you think isn't really reflective of someone having dedication to the full, exact story involved. For every tournament you're showing that has zerg favored saturation, or win rates, or championship wins; There are tournaments that show the exact same for other races. Please make some effort to be honest with yourself, and subsequently the people you talk to, about what's going on.
Also, nothing you've said is original. You make a mistake and lose? Welcome to Starcraft 2. Every race has examples of this happening - it takes some pretty vibrantly tinted whine-goggles to think that this reality is unique to the Terran race. Seriously, the people who bring up this 'point' are desperately in need of a clue and some form of basic ability to view things outside of their bias.
Also, it looks like you have outdated writing on an Infestor which has now been nerfed, and are so committed to whining that you haven't bothered to change this. Other than to put "(still)" in your title. I'll leave it to you to figure out, in time, how significant the infestor changes are.
Timing attacks and queen complaints? We pay for those queens, and if zergs weren't shutting down your attacks with those, they would be using roaches and lings instead. It's not as if Z were just sitting around ready to be shit on by a ton of early game aggressive moves by Terran, and with a queen buff that all suddenly became impotent. Early game aggression is just universally an easy thing to scout and handle. If it wasn't, we'd all use it non-stop. But it is. Furthermore, it's not like queens stand up to stuff and say you shall not pass! There are tons of situations where Zerg is naked behind their queens, not even making a spine anymore, or a baneling nest or a roach warren.
Your attention-as-a-resource bit seems founded on the presupposition that Terran is more apm intensive than Z, and your proofs or examples seem to be numbers pulled right from your butt and delivered with confidence. That's not going to work. Do you want to hear me whine about how you can cue up 3 dropships and not look at them while I have to scramble to deal with all the chaos that causes in one unified moment for me? No, you don't, and I don't want to talk about it, because it doesn't actually matter. You need to get over these arbitrary notions for all things having to be, in every way, equal. The races are not designed that way, and the game would be boring if they were. We all have our own unique shit to deal with. Again, for all the examples you put forward in favor of one race, they can be made for the other races. Please realize this.
As for the late g ame, the infestor nerf is quite relevant, as is the seeker missile buff. You're probably into the trend of laughing at that buff, as if its meaningless, because you refuse to acknowledge or be open minded to what it does for your race. It's not just a resource buff, but through that, a buff to the speed and accessability of having seeker missile splashed into your game, sooner than ever and cheaper than ever. Seeker missile has already been getting a ton of use in recent, and to great effect. We've all seen it. So quit pretending you're fucked and nothing is improving or changing so that you can enjoy the sound of your own whining. That isn't going to help you or your community, not at all.
I'm not going to address the late game at large with you, because that would take a ton of time to do comprehensively, and I can't say that you have made the impression of someone who really understands what is going on, nor do you come off as particularly open-minded for your race. You come off as someone dead set on feeling screwed. You must rage a lot, and therefor need a lot of consolation at the racial level, so that you can bypass having to acknowledge your own mistakes.
Deal with it. /sunglasses
Good lord.
All is fine eh?
Give me one example of a common Z "mistake" that is as game changing as leaving your camera off your marine group for even less than second????? Everybody knows that the slightest Terran mistake in TvZ is INSTANT GG, and there are plenty of games to prove it. The last time Z even had a close resemblance to this much of game changing mistake was when they made mutas, but that is obviously out the window now. You use a 3 prong drop as an example of causing you to "have a hard time." but compare how much effort that is on the Terran side(3 battles at once all with different rallys and timings) to the Z side where you hit one(yes one!) F button. So give me an example please.
Your part on the queens is absolutely fucking retarted, you pay for those queens???? o rly?!?!? The whole fucking point of the Z race is that it has to always chose between drones and units to make it to late game safely. Queens do not cost larva(are you sure you still really "pay" for queens?) and since they have been buffed they now become the perfect medium for Z to literally break there races own weakness by getting units without losing drones. So trying to say queens are not the issue is quite the fail, considering how key they are to the whole problem at hand.
Of course you dont "want to discuss the end game at large" because what the hell is a Z to say about Terrans late game. You know its broken once you get the BL/infestor. End of discussion.
Basically you just ignored all of the facts about TvZ and said "Well us Zergs try to damnit!!"
Not a good reply.
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Calgary25981 Posts
Why don't you wait longer than 2 hours until making this thread?
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Calgary25981 Posts
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On December 24 2012 01:35 Chill wrote:
Merry Christmas.
Inb4 it's still not enough, and it's merely something to hopefully keep people happy until HotS.
EDIT: Which is exactly what it's going to be, mind you.
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Dustin announced a new nerf for infestor.
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I am fairly sure that the 3-OC Hellion-Banshee existed even before the queen buff, it is a safe way to go for a quick 3rd and able to defend a roach ling baneling all in.
Totally disagree with there is no timing attack in TvZ.
There are tonnes of different game ending mistakes that both races have.
A miss-ed queen block against bfhellions
A miss-ed drop sniped off important tech
Engaging at poor position
Clumped up muta against thors
Walked infestors too far up to fungal the bio and got killed by tank vollies
I also disagree compared infestors to raven, think they are medivac, a CORE unit in your marine composition.
Why would you compare them to ravens?
Saying ghost serves no purpose in terran army is weird, considering if infestors are emp-ed, terran army are much stronger than pure lings.
I am not sure about the attention as resources as well.
Ling blocking expo is as simple as zerg checking if terran is trying to bunker rush.
Ling runbys and infestors burrow harass rarely occur in high level games, you can use building placement against ling runbys (and actually has a chance to trap all the lings) and terran always have missile turrets next to the natural/third bunker.
The way you describe infestor harass is a bit like how zerg tries to deal with banshee harass. needs to morph overseer/make spores, move away drones (and rerallying), use appropriate number of queens to defend.
Move spore if banshee hitting from outside cloak range.
Or, Ghost with nuke.
The reason why Zerg is winning so comfortably is because Terran isn't able to kill off infestors/burn off the energy well enough and so the zerg can always defend that pre hive timings and make it to bl infestors ball.
nowadays I tend to think one of the better solution is just to have a smaller map
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I think the two logical conclusions to draw given the arguments you made would be to:
a) remove infestor completely (or nerf it to the point it only has a very specific use)
b) revert queen buff to allow for reactor hellion openings to contain zerg to two bases and force lings/spines
either of these would help shift zerg back towards muta ling bling, which regardless of balance, is so much more fun and exciting to watch and play than infestorturtletohive. I wouldn't even mind a baneling buff so long as zerg's couldn't make infestors :D
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I feel like a calldown of a Repair Drone as an ability for a Raven would be a nice skill.
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On December 05 2012 13:06 Kaitokid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 13:00 forsooth wrote:On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. What's even more interesting is that many of them will even claim it was necessary. If we look at the January-April TvZ stats (using TLPD charts for reference) for Korea, we get: 51/49 in January 57/43 in February 46/54 in March 46/54 in April International statistics show very close to 50/50 during the same time period, with the biggest disparity being 54/46 in Zerg's favor in March. This means that in the two months leading up to the queen buff, Zergs were actually favored in Korea, the very place where TL's own Zerg contingent always points to when trying to claim that Terran is still fine and dandy. The overlord buff is something that most of the community (myself included) was fine with, but why they decided to buff queens so massively remains a total mystery to me. It was a point in time where everyone loved watching TvZ and the numbers showed that Zerg was performing well in the matchup at the professional level, and Blizzard killed most of its entertainment value while also paving the road for the imbalanced matchup we have today. I believe the reason for the queen buff was that the reactor hellion opening was too strong. Terrans did it every game and there was nothing zerg could do to stop it. basically the standard buildorder for terran was too fixed and safe... I mean its ok if something like 14p is standard but not if a buildorder can be played every single game until 7 minutes into the game. in retro perspective 5 might have been too much though and maybe 4 would have been more appropriate
This is so hypocritical and untrue. Terrans did it every game because zerg opened the same every game too and hellions happened to be very good against that opener.
If zergs weren't so greedy/stubborn and just built a couple of roaches to defend against the hellions instead of building nothing but drones and then crying when they lost to actual fighting units then they would have been just fine.
IMO something that should be tried is removing the root effect from fungle and giving it a corruption effect (as well as its damage).
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The reason is, terrans are still clinging onto hellions. So, please, terrans around the world, listen to this little advice.
When you scout the Zerg, if you see a gas, feel free to go for the hellions, because the Zerg will be doing something with the gas, and it's either going to be an all-in (stopped by hellions, unless it's roaches) or a simple speedling opening with less (if any) creep queens.
If you see no gases taken by the Zerg player, he will opt do to the mass queen opening, which is SUPPOSED TO defend againt hellions (queens were designed to shoo off little pesky harass units, such as reapers and, yes that's right, hellions).
Now, what does that mean for the Terran player? Well, for one, queens actually suck against stimmed marines with medivac support. I find that a heavy bio opening works great vs zerg. Basically that 16 marine 2 medivac push is what I'm talking about.
You can kill creep tumors, relatively early in the game, snipe of queen(s), perhaps force a cancel on the third all the while you're making the zerg make defensive units rather than drones all the time, and behind that you're taking a third, grabbing 1-1, later on 2-2, getting your tank count up, and getting map control (at least for a while), but that's not super important in mid game TvZ. And you could also drop like a maniac thanks to that marine medivac push because that makes the Zerg simply forget about the overlord spread, or he doesn't want to spread them around because they could be picked off by those marines you have out. It's basically what the hellions did before the queen patch. Give you good map control, contain the zerg, make him get out units instead of drones. Ultimately, the zerg won't have that crazy 3, even 4 base economy while teching, getting a bunch of infestors and butt-whooping terran all around.
Now, I find this to be very very effective in the current metagame, and I hope that you try it out and have as much success as I do.
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On December 24 2012 02:55 ArchAngelSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 13:06 Kaitokid wrote:On December 05 2012 13:00 forsooth wrote:On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. What's even more interesting is that many of them will even claim it was necessary. If we look at the January-April TvZ stats (using TLPD charts for reference) for Korea, we get: 51/49 in January 57/43 in February 46/54 in March 46/54 in April International statistics show very close to 50/50 during the same time period, with the biggest disparity being 54/46 in Zerg's favor in March. This means that in the two months leading up to the queen buff, Zergs were actually favored in Korea, the very place where TL's own Zerg contingent always points to when trying to claim that Terran is still fine and dandy. The overlord buff is something that most of the community (myself included) was fine with, but why they decided to buff queens so massively remains a total mystery to me. It was a point in time where everyone loved watching TvZ and the numbers showed that Zerg was performing well in the matchup at the professional level, and Blizzard killed most of its entertainment value while also paving the road for the imbalanced matchup we have today. I believe the reason for the queen buff was that the reactor hellion opening was too strong. Terrans did it every game and there was nothing zerg could do to stop it. basically the standard buildorder for terran was too fixed and safe... I mean its ok if something like 14p is standard but not if a buildorder can be played every single game until 7 minutes into the game. in retro perspective 5 might have been too much though and maybe 4 would have been more appropriate This is so hypocritical and untrue. Terrans did it every game because zerg opened the same every game too and hellions happened to be very good against that opener. If zergs weren't so greedy/stubborn and just built a couple of roaches to defend against the hellions instead of building nothing but drones and then crying when they lost to actual fighting units then they would have been just fine.
You do realise WHY zergs didn't do that, right? It's actually a massive investment in larva, minerals and gas.
150+1 drone for the roach warren, 75 gas and 225 minerals for the roaches, plus 6 supply (1 overlord) and 3 larva.
That's a hell of a lot for defending againt hellions, and even then it's not particularly guaranteed, and terrans can just stop making hellions and make extra CCs etc instead, like they often do anyway, and then it would swing the other way and give the T a massive midgame window for attacking.
The point of hellions is to harm the zerg economy. By making roaches, that's harming the economy anyway. Your "solution" is to say "no matter what, hellions are free damage to economey either by killing drones, or by harming the economy by forcing a specific type of defense which then ends up being useless as the game goes on and just exists to set back the zerg economy".
While it would stop the damage done by hellions, potentially, that damage would be done by making the roaches in the first place, meaning you gain nothing at all, and the mere existence of hellions becomes the strength.
That's not to say the buff to queens was necessary, just that the roach solution isn't a solution to the problem of early game hellions.
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Corvid reactor increases raven starting energy to 100.
a) Raven more accessible lategame, 2 auto-turrets, 1 PDD upon raven production. Raven is immediately useful and no longer a paper weight
b) Raven energy wait-time for seeker missile now is 25 energy, down from 50. This brings it in line with every other caster in the game. Cutting the wait time by 50% to get a seeker missile makes a world of difference.
If you want the most analogous unit comparison, look at the templar. It starts with 50 energy. What if psi storm costed 100 energy. Suddenly the templar goes from being a good unit, to being a gamble. You don't know if it will pay itself off with such a long wait time for a psi storm, and it will in fact pay itself off much less often.
My change allows the raven to pay itself off more often in more situations.
c) Provides a more accessible counter to tempests in HOTS. PDD upon raven being produced is huge. It's immediately useful vs higher tiered units. Also vs the new roach/hydra/viper high tempo style, now a raven is an option because once again, like a templar, it will be able to pay itself off more often with either a seeker after a 25 energy wait time, or from having things immediately available upon production.
d) Doesn't imbalance the unit, the unit remains exactly the same, it simply is made more accessible. This is huge. The raven stays the exact same tried and tested unit, but the limiting factor of balance here is corvid reactor research. This often does not come early on in a game because resources cannot be allocated to it, and getting a tech labbed starport is a hindrance as well. It limits raven strength to a later stage in the game, while making them more accessible.
The interesting part is, the raven is already well designed imo in the seeker, auto-turrets, PDD. It's only the accessibility of the unit that is terrible right now.
Why do I post about this...again? Because the change above pin points the issue of the raven, which is the energy wait-time factor and accessibility, rather than doing changes else where in the game, or doing unnecessary overhauls to the design of the unit.
It's a change that can be independent of everything else in the game, and literally only affects the raven as a unit while not messing with any other variables that would tip balance anywhere else. It's also one that you can consider has already been tried and tested with the templar as described above, and if you want to take it a step further, you can look at the ghost which mimics the change I talk about.
The ghost has the mobius reactor upgrade, increasing ghost starting energy to 75, which means a ghost can immediately EMP upon production. This makes the ghost an immediately useful unit for Terran to make against Protoss, because you know you are not gambling and will have the energy for the EMP to make the ghost pay itself off.
The drawback of course is the travel time, which is why the ghost gets this advantage over the templar because the templar can be warped in anywhere on the map where there is pylon power.
The point being, my change imitates the ghost mobius reactor upgrade which has also shown to be tried and tested.
So yeah...basically if you held a gun to my head, and said, "are you willing to make this change, and risk throwing off the balance of the game?" I would comfortably and confidently bet my life that this is a good change to the game, that by the way, is also easily tweaked in the future by changing the price/cost/build time of the corvid reactor upgrade.
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On December 24 2012 02:58 TheRageNerd wrote:
The reason is, terrans are still clinging onto hellions. So, please, terrans around the world, listen to this little advice.
When you scout the Zerg, if you see a gas, feel free to go for the hellions, because the Zerg will be doing something with the gas, and it's either going to be an all-in (stopped by hellions, unless it's roaches) or a simple speedling opening with less (if any) creep queens.
If you see no gases taken by the Zerg player, he will opt do to the mass queen opening, which is SUPPOSED TO defend againt hellions (queens were designed to shoo off little pesky harass units, such as reapers and, yes that's right, hellions).
Now, what does that mean for the Terran player? Well, for one, queens actually suck against stimmed marines with medivac support. I find that a heavy bio opening works great vs zerg. Basically that 16 marine 2 medivac push is what I'm talking about.
You can kill creep tumors, relatively early in the game, snipe of queen(s), perhaps force a cancel on the third all the while you're making the zerg make defensive units rather than drones all the time, and behind that you're taking a third, grabbing 1-1, later on 2-2, getting your tank count up, and getting map control (at least for a while), but that's not super important in mid game TvZ. And you could also drop like a maniac thanks to that marine medivac push because that makes the Zerg simply forget about the overlord spread, or he doesn't want to spread them around because they could be picked off by those marines you have out. It's basically what the hellions did before the queen patch. Give you good map control, contain the zerg, make him get out units instead of drones. Ultimately, the zerg won't have that crazy 3, even 4 base economy while teching, getting a bunch of infestors and butt-whooping terran all around.
Now, I find this to be very very effective in the current metagame, and I hope that you try it out and have as much success as I do.
You're defending zerg and have a quote about making zerg units yourself and then claim to have success with terran against zerg. Seems fishy to me...
Anyway I haven't played sc2 in a while now due to how retarded terran is to play these days, but from what I can remember you can only realistically get medivacs out on the field at around 10-11 minutes. And by that point queens are going to be the least of your worries. So your argument is pretty pointless lol.
On December 24 2012 03:02 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 02:55 ArchAngelSC wrote:On December 05 2012 13:06 Kaitokid wrote:On December 05 2012 13:00 forsooth wrote:On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. What's even more interesting is that many of them will even claim it was necessary. If we look at the January-April TvZ stats (using TLPD charts for reference) for Korea, we get: 51/49 in January 57/43 in February 46/54 in March 46/54 in April International statistics show very close to 50/50 during the same time period, with the biggest disparity being 54/46 in Zerg's favor in March. This means that in the two months leading up to the queen buff, Zergs were actually favored in Korea, the very place where TL's own Zerg contingent always points to when trying to claim that Terran is still fine and dandy. The overlord buff is something that most of the community (myself included) was fine with, but why they decided to buff queens so massively remains a total mystery to me. It was a point in time where everyone loved watching TvZ and the numbers showed that Zerg was performing well in the matchup at the professional level, and Blizzard killed most of its entertainment value while also paving the road for the imbalanced matchup we have today. I believe the reason for the queen buff was that the reactor hellion opening was too strong. Terrans did it every game and there was nothing zerg could do to stop it. basically the standard buildorder for terran was too fixed and safe... I mean its ok if something like 14p is standard but not if a buildorder can be played every single game until 7 minutes into the game. in retro perspective 5 might have been too much though and maybe 4 would have been more appropriate This is so hypocritical and untrue. Terrans did it every game because zerg opened the same every game too and hellions happened to be very good against that opener. If zergs weren't so greedy/stubborn and just built a couple of roaches to defend against the hellions instead of building nothing but drones and then crying when they lost to actual fighting units then they would have been just fine. You do realise WHY zergs didn't do that, right? It's actually a massive investment in larva, minerals and gas. 150+1 drone for the roach warren, 75 gas and 225 minerals for the roaches, plus 6 supply (1 overlord) and 3 larva. That's a hell of a lot for defending againt hellions, and even then it's not particularly guaranteed, and terrans can just stop making hellions and make extra CCs etc instead, like they often do anyway, and then it would swing the other way and give the T a massive midgame window for attacking. The point of hellions is to harm the zerg economy. By making roaches, that's harming the economy anyway. Your "solution" is to say "no matter what, hellions are free damage to economey either by killing drones, or by harming the economy by forcing a specific type of defense which then ends up being useless as the game goes on and just exists to set back the zerg economy". While it would stop the damage done by hellions, potentially, that damage would be done by making the roaches in the first place, meaning you gain nothing at all, and the mere existence of hellions becomes the strength. That's not to say the buff to queens was necessary, just that the roach solution isn't a solution to the problem of early game hellions.
Yes cause getting 2 gas, a factory, reactor and 4 hellions is "free" according to you, right? lol. Haven't played for a while and can't remember the costs but I'm pretty sure getting 4 hellions costs more than getting 4 roaches. (could be wrong but I don't think so)
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Now that is a pretty reasonable and though out post about the problem and i can totally agree about all points made. Very good stuff indeed.
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I've always thought that courruptors were wayyyy too tanky, maybe if they had less hp, endgame ZvT battles would be a lot closer instead of an infestor broodlord stomp.
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The reason is, terrans are still clinging onto hellions. So, please, terrans around the world, listen to this little advice.
When you scout the Zerg, if you see a gas, feel free to go for the hellions, because the Zerg will be doing something with the gas, and it's either going to be an all-in (stopped by hellions, unless it's roaches) or a simple speedling opening with less (if any) creep queens.
If you see no gases taken by the Zerg player, he will opt do to the mass queen opening, which is SUPPOSED TO defend againt hellions (queens were designed to shoo off little pesky harass units, such as reapers and, yes that's right, hellions).
Now, what does that mean for the Terran player? Well, for one, queens actually suck against stimmed marines with medivac support. I find that a heavy bio opening works great vs zerg. Basically that 16 marine 2 medivac push is what I'm talking about.
You can kill creep tumors, relatively early in the game, snipe of queen(s), perhaps force a cancel on the third all the while you're making the zerg make defensive units rather than drones all the time, and behind that you're taking a third, grabbing 1-1, later on 2-2, getting your tank count up, and getting map control (at least for a while), but that's not super important in mid game TvZ. And you could also drop like a maniac thanks to that marine medivac push because that makes the Zerg simply forget about the overlord spread, or he doesn't want to spread them around because they could be picked off by those marines you have out. It's basically what the hellions did before the queen patch. Give you good map control, contain the zerg, make him get out units instead of drones. Ultimately, the zerg won't have that crazy 3, even 4 base economy while teching, getting a bunch of infestors and butt-whooping terran all around.
Now, I find this to be very very effective in the current metagame, and I hope that you try it out and have as much success as I do.
I'm not what world you live in but no pressure till medivacs will mean autolose, there is no 2 base play for terran that will ever come close to snping a third, let alone trade evenly. The only reason this would ever work is if zergs are terrible or they were so greedy that they didn't throw down a precautionary baneling nest and spent all energy on tumors
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> Metagame is mostly fine
> Blizzard makes some changes
> Metagame is ruined
Why not, like, reverse the changes? The only reason against it is that the now legally-declared clueless balance team would have to admit that they were stone wrong, which obviously, couldn't possibly happen.
And if you wanted to fix something, try another option. Insane, I know.
Infestors aren't even that big a problem, it's just a powerful visual that people can rally behind. People are as desperate as to suggest Friendly Fire for Fungal, lol. There's a billion ways to fix the metagame.
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On December 24 2012 02:58 TheRageNerd wrote:
The reason is, terrans are still clinging onto hellions.
Yes, and we shall keep doing that as long as Speedlings exist because all other Terran ground units are much slower than Speedlings, making movements on the map awkward/unsafe unless you're 100% sure Zerg did not get Metabolic Boost. Terran players get Hellions because they grant map control; with bio openings you're fairly in the dark.
On December 24 2012 02:58 TheRageNerd wrote:
If you see no gases taken by the Zerg player, he will opt do to the mass queen opening
No, you can't be sure of that, Zerg can get dual gas afterwards and get delayed Speed or Roaches; even Roach/Baneling busts can be done out of gasless opening with 3 gases taken at once (DRG did that in the past).
On December 24 2012 02:58 TheRageNerd wrote:
Now, what does that mean for the Terran player? Well, for one, queens actually suck against stimmed marines with medivac support. I find that a heavy bio opening works great vs zerg.
2-bases timings are horrible nowadays because Zerg sacrifices an Overlord, scouts your timing, reacts accordingly and stays ahead (which means auto-win with the current state of TvZ unless Zerg makes a major blunder afterwards) because he's able to keep his third while yours starts late.
On December 24 2012 03:02 Lonyo wrote:
You do realise WHY zergs didn't do that, right?
Wrong, some Zergs were doing that, e. g. Nerchio then Stephano in Europe. Getting some Roaches to morph an earlier third was not at all the painful sacrifice you're describing.
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On December 24 2012 03:05 ArchAngelSC wrote:
Yes cause getting 2 gas, a factory, reactor and 4 hellions is "free" according to you, right? lol. Haven't played for a while and can't remember the costs but I'm pretty sure getting 4 hellions costs more than getting 4 roaches. (could be wrong but I don't think so)
While it does set back the terran economy, it at least helps advance your tech. Building roaches *only* sets back the zerg economy (ignoring anything else they might be doing with them, just purely in economic terms). The Zerg is spending 250/100+drone that they wouldn't have spent otherwise (total cost 450/100 minus 200 for the 4 drones they would have built). The Terran is spending (assuming it's just a reactor 4-hellion opener) 400 minerals they wouldn't have spent otherwise because they were going to build a factory and reactor eventually anyway. His point, I think, was that without the queen buff the Terran is spending 400 minerals he wouldn't have spent otherwise (and the gas/etc. earlier) in order to automatically cost the zerg 250/100 (and a drone) he doesn't want to spend.
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On December 24 2012 03:28 Saraf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 03:05 ArchAngelSC wrote:
Yes cause getting 2 gas, a factory, reactor and 4 hellions is "free" according to you, right? lol. Haven't played for a while and can't remember the costs but I'm pretty sure getting 4 hellions costs more than getting 4 roaches. (could be wrong but I don't think so) While it does set back the terran economy, it at least helps advance your tech. Building roaches *only* sets back the zerg economy (ignoring anything else they might be doing with them, just purely in economic terms). The Zerg is spending 250/100+drone that they wouldn't have spent otherwise (total cost 450/100 minus 200 for the 4 drones they would have built). The Terran is spending (assuming it's just a reactor 4-hellion opener) 400 minerals they wouldn't have spent otherwise because they were going to build a factory and reactor eventually anyway. His point, I think, was that without the queen buff the Terran is spending 400 minerals he wouldn't have spent otherwise (and the gas/etc. earlier) in order to automatically cost the zerg 250/100 (and a drone) he doesn't want to spend.
2 gas = 150 minerals
factory = 150 minerals 100 gas
reactor = 50 minerals 50 gas
total 350 minerals 150 gas
by building all this tech earlier that you so casually and quickly passed over you're pretty much sacrificing having an entire extra OC just to make the zerg have to spend 250/100 + drone .... Who exactly is getting the bigger benefit here? Even if it is the terran it's not exactly hugely game breaking is it?
Yes it advances your tech but the sacrifice in economy is HUGE.
The problem is that it's just so accepted that zergs make only drones for the first 8-10 minutes of the game that if they have to sacrifice ANY economy at all to deal with any sort of harrass it's completely unacceptable.
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All of these points apply to PvZ too.
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On December 24 2012 03:22 TheDwf wrote:Wrong, some Zergs were doing that, e. g. Nerchio then Stephano in Europe. Getting some Roaches to morph an earlier third was not at all the painful sacrifice you're describing.
Oddly, Nerchio and Stephano were seeing great results before the buff as well.
On December 24 2012 03:28 Saraf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 03:05 ArchAngelSC wrote:
Yes cause getting 2 gas, a factory, reactor and 4 hellions is "free" according to you, right? lol. Haven't played for a while and can't remember the costs but I'm pretty sure getting 4 hellions costs more than getting 4 roaches. (could be wrong but I don't think so) While it does set back the terran economy, it at least helps advance your tech. Building roaches *only* sets back the zerg economy (ignoring anything else they might be doing with them, just purely in economic terms). The Zerg is spending 250/100+drone that they wouldn't have spent otherwise (total cost 450/100 minus 200 for the 4 drones they would have built). The Terran is spending (assuming it's just a reactor 4-hellion opener) 400 minerals they wouldn't have spent otherwise because they were going to build a factory and reactor eventually anyway. His point, I think, was that without the queen buff the Terran is spending 400 minerals he wouldn't have spent otherwise (and the gas/etc. earlier) in order to automatically cost the zerg 250/100 (and a drone) he doesn't want to spend.
This is a line of thinking I've always hated in SC2. The Zerg community latches onto the most greedy POS builds they can, pumping nothing but drones and whining at any deviation from that. The idea that Zerg should be making units that aren't endgame units is somehow appalling, but required from Terran and Protoss.
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You make a mistake and lose? Welcome to Starcraft 2. Every race has examples of this happening - it takes some pretty vibrantly tinted whine-goggles to think that this reality is unique to the Terran race.
Yes, if you make a couple mistakes, you lose in Starcraft. But in TvZ, if you make one mistake, you can lose your entire army and then the game. That's the difference. If you think that a zerg loses their late game army at 40 minutes can't come back, you haven't been watching the game. You make a mistake as zerg, it's much easier to recover.
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On December 24 2012 03:52 aksfjh wrote:
This is a line of thinking I've always hated in SC2. The Zerg community latches onto the most greedy POS builds they can, pumping nothing but drones and whining at any deviation from that. The idea that Zerg should be making units that aren't endgame units is somehow appalling, but required from Terran and Protoss.
Greedy play should be a risk, not something standard. PvZ is a mutual agreement of "You don't attack me I won't attack you" for the first few minutes because Protoss gateway units are very weak (made weak because if they were non-gimped units they would be OP because of warpgate tech and sentry forcefield).
Early game aggression (which is the hard counter to greedy play) is nullified because of the zerg's buffs and even further diminished because of map sizes
Edit: Another interesting thing of note, queen DPS is 8 vs ground 9 vs air, compare that to a stalker (a unit that costs 25 minerals less and 50 more gas) which has 6.9 DPS. A queen is a very strong defender, especially post range buff
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On December 24 2012 03:34 ArchAngelSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 03:28 Saraf wrote:On December 24 2012 03:05 ArchAngelSC wrote:
Yes cause getting 2 gas, a factory, reactor and 4 hellions is "free" according to you, right? lol. Haven't played for a while and can't remember the costs but I'm pretty sure getting 4 hellions costs more than getting 4 roaches. (could be wrong but I don't think so) While it does set back the terran economy, it at least helps advance your tech. Building roaches *only* sets back the zerg economy (ignoring anything else they might be doing with them, just purely in economic terms). The Zerg is spending 250/100+drone that they wouldn't have spent otherwise (total cost 450/100 minus 200 for the 4 drones they would have built). The Terran is spending (assuming it's just a reactor 4-hellion opener) 400 minerals they wouldn't have spent otherwise because they were going to build a factory and reactor eventually anyway. His point, I think, was that without the queen buff the Terran is spending 400 minerals he wouldn't have spent otherwise (and the gas/etc. earlier) in order to automatically cost the zerg 250/100 (and a drone) he doesn't want to spend. 2 gas = 150 minerals factory = 150 minerals 100 gas reactor = 50 minerals 50 gas total 350 minerals 150 gas by building all this tech earlier that you so casually and quickly passed over you're pretty much sacrificing having an entire extra OC just to make the zerg have to spend 250/100 + drone .... Who exactly is getting the bigger benefit here? Even if it is the terran it's not exactly hugely game breaking is it? Yes it advances your tech but the sacrifice in economy is HUGE. The problem is that it's just so accepted that zergs make only drones for the first 8-10 minutes of the game that if they have to sacrifice ANY economy at all to deal with any sort of harrass it's completely unacceptable.
And, you're fucked against muta.
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On December 24 2012 04:01 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 03:34 ArchAngelSC wrote:On December 24 2012 03:28 Saraf wrote:On December 24 2012 03:05 ArchAngelSC wrote:
Yes cause getting 2 gas, a factory, reactor and 4 hellions is "free" according to you, right? lol. Haven't played for a while and can't remember the costs but I'm pretty sure getting 4 hellions costs more than getting 4 roaches. (could be wrong but I don't think so) While it does set back the terran economy, it at least helps advance your tech. Building roaches *only* sets back the zerg economy (ignoring anything else they might be doing with them, just purely in economic terms). The Zerg is spending 250/100+drone that they wouldn't have spent otherwise (total cost 450/100 minus 200 for the 4 drones they would have built). The Terran is spending (assuming it's just a reactor 4-hellion opener) 400 minerals they wouldn't have spent otherwise because they were going to build a factory and reactor eventually anyway. His point, I think, was that without the queen buff the Terran is spending 400 minerals he wouldn't have spent otherwise (and the gas/etc. earlier) in order to automatically cost the zerg 250/100 (and a drone) he doesn't want to spend. 2 gas = 150 minerals factory = 150 minerals 100 gas reactor = 50 minerals 50 gas total 350 minerals 150 gas by building all this tech earlier that you so casually and quickly passed over you're pretty much sacrificing having an entire extra OC just to make the zerg have to spend 250/100 + drone .... Who exactly is getting the bigger benefit here? Even if it is the terran it's not exactly hugely game breaking is it? Yes it advances your tech but the sacrifice in economy is HUGE. The problem is that it's just so accepted that zergs make only drones for the first 8-10 minutes of the game that if they have to sacrifice ANY economy at all to deal with any sort of harrass it's completely unacceptable. And, you're fucked against muta.
What? Reactor hellion expand (and every other build that exists) is fine vs muta. Just invest in an ebay. Also, investing in hellions doesn't hurt against muta because mutas hit WAY after you invest in hellions.
Like there's a lot of arguments for both sides, but vulnerability to mutas is just outright wrong.
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nerfs incoming. from db's twitter: "It looks like our last Infestor nerfs were not enough. We will look to patch again sometime in January." about time!
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It makes me laugh how zergs say "terran should wait and they will find out how to win" We have been waiting for almost a year now and what has blizzard done "Oh we'll reduce fungal range by 1 and make seeker missle upgrade free" What has blizzard done in the past when terran was considered op? "Oh thats op, gone" within a few months. I dont know why blizzard is so slow with their patches, infestors are obviously broken and make for boring games in starcraft and even zergs know that. I would love blizzard to try out drastic nerfs to infestors, such as decreasing the range of fungal significantly and making it a slow projectile, and making infested terran eggs take longer to spawn or have less hp, something to make sure we have greater than 1 terran in the round of 16 or higher in a tournament, because this imbalance is not just hurting one matchup, its hurting this game as a whole.
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On December 24 2012 04:29 CapTanObviOs wrote:
It makes me laugh how zergs say "terran should wait and they will find out how to win" We have been waiting for almost a year now and what has blizzard done "Oh we'll reduce fungal range by 1 and make seeker missle upgrade free" What has blizzard done in the past when terran was considered op? "Oh thats op, gone" within a few months. I dont know why blizzard is so slow with their patches, infestors are obviously broken and make for boring games in starcraft and even zergs know that. I would love blizzard to try out drastic nerfs to infestors, such as decreasing the range of fungal significantly and making it a slow projectile, and making infested terran eggs take longer to spawn or have less hp, something to make sure we have greater than 1 terran in the round of 16 or higher in a tournament, because this imbalance is not just hurting one matchup, its hurting this game as a whole.
True... and that is also extremely disrespectful towards professional gamers who put themselves on the line, work very hard all day to get better but then have to face the crazy imbalance currently present in the game.
Last IPL5 I was so sad to see some players loose simply due to Blizzard not fixing the Zerg race, makes me angry and sad 
It must be a terrible feeling as a player being robbed like that...
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On December 05 2012 11:25 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:20 DaNkS wrote:
this is funny cuz protoss isnt as good as terran and zerg as well i think toss needs a buff Protoss is doing wonderfully against zerg compared to terran.
The PvZ winrate is inflated by the sentry-immortal all-in which should be solved by giving the sentry a maximum of 100 energy (not 200, at least). In the late game, I think Protoss are even more screwed than Terrans, against Zergs ( except for the Vortex, which can work well)
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Zerg late game in HotS is even stronger now than WoL... ultra do so much daamages to bio, fungal longer range, blinding cloud own bio tooo... raven even super bad now cause they remove splash so its just single target lazer..
HotS unplayable for T.. everyone is play Z too on it.
T.T
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The Lings of Liberty thread is a troll, lol. It's statistics are laughable. Also, IPL5 had huge Zerg saturation going into it which makes the results pretty inevitable. And you have those exact IPL5 numbers covering a lot of the gap in your overall race winrates in the last 4 months. Should check the seeding on each of th ose to get a better feel for the whole story. Numbers have stories behidn them. Just taking whoevers graphs look like it supports what you think isn't really reflective of someone having dedication to the full, exact story involved. For every tournament you're showing that has zerg favored saturation, or win rates, or championship wins; There are tournaments that show the exact same for other races. Please make some effort to be honest with yourself, and subsequently the people you talk to, about what's going on.
Also, nothing you've said is original. You make a mistake and lose? Welcome to Starcraft 2. Every race has examples of this happening - it takes some pretty vibrantly tinted whine-goggles to think that this reality is unique to the Terran race. Seriously, the people who bring up this 'point' are desperately in need of a clue and some form of basic ability to view things outside of their bias.
Also, it looks like you have outdated writing on an Infestor which has now been nerfed, and are so committed to whining that you haven't bothered to change this. Other than to put "(still)" in your title. I'll leave it to you to figure out, in time, how significant the infestor changes are.
Timing attacks and queen complaints? We pay for those queens, and if zergs weren't shutting down your attacks with those, they would be using roaches and lings instead. It's not as if Z were just sitting around ready to be shit on by a ton of early game aggressive moves by Terran, and with a queen buff that all suddenly became impotent. Early game aggression is just universally an easy thing to scout and handle. If it wasn't, we'd all use it non-stop. But it is. Furthermore, it's not like queens stand up to stuff and say you shall not pass! There are tons of situations where Zerg is naked behind their queens, not even making a spine anymore, or a baneling nest or a roach warren.
Your attention-as-a-resource bit seems founded on the presupposition that Terran is more apm intensive than Z, and your proofs or examples seem to be numbers pulled right from your butt and delivered with confidence. That's not going to work. Do you want to hear me whine about how you can cue up 3 dropships and not look at them while I have to scramble to deal with all the chaos that causes in one unified moment for me? No, you don't, and I don't want to talk about it, because it doesn't actually matter. You need to get over these arbitrary notions for all things having to be, in every way, equal. The races are not designed that way, and the game would be boring if they were. We all have our own unique shit to deal with. Again, for all the examples you put forward in favor of one race, they can be made for the other races. Please realize this.
As for the late g ame, the infestor nerf is quite relevant, as is the seeker missile buff. You're probably into the trend of laughing at that buff, as if its meaningless, because you refuse to acknowledge or be open minded to what it does for your race. It's not just a resource buff, but through that, a buff to the speed and accessability of having seeker missile splashed into your game, sooner than ever and cheaper than ever. Seeker missile has already been getting a ton of use in recent, and to great effect. We've all seen it. So quit pretending you're fucked and nothing is improving or changing so that you can enjoy the sound of your own whining. That isn't going to help you or your community, not at all.
I'm not going to address the late game at large with you, because that would take a ton of time to do comprehensively, and I can't say that you have made the impression of someone who really understands what is going on, nor do you come off as particularly open-minded for your race. You come off as someone dead set on feeling screwed. You must rage a lot, and therefor need a lot of consolation at the racial level, so that you can bypass having to acknowledge your own mistakes.
Deal with it. /sunglasses
Thank you Lumi for taking the time to write such a long reply. Unfortunately, despite your efforts, you have received a grade of F for the following reasons:
- Failure to provide examples of common and unforgiving game ending mistakes for other races.
- Failure to acknowledge that paying for Queens does not cost larva(e).
- Failure to acknowledge that using lings and roaches to defend early aggression has a large drone opportunity cost.
- Failure to provide examples where Zerg is naked with 4-6 Queens.
- Stating that the Infestor nerf is relevant, implying that it is enough to correct TvZ imbalance, despite the fact that DB just announced that it was not enough:
Thank you for reading, your participation on the Team Liquid forums is both valuable and appreciated by all community members.
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Ok this is stupid:
Harassment tactics from Zerg require a disproportionately larger amount of attention for Terran to deal with than Terran harassment does for a Zerg player.
when you drop in 2-3 places You can just stim + amove and if i didnt sent enoguh lings ill probably lose a lot of drones/tech. Not to mention BFH which can kill a lot. If ling runby its your fault for not walling off, spotting it in time, besides they are easy to clean up;.
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Great post. I think the last point about attention is probably the most important. The Terran race has been dealing with this in all match ups since the beginning, but at the start before all our nerfs it was kind of covered up.
I was kind of just biding my time until HOTS. Sadly, it seems that they are pushing the game even further in that direction. The new units for Terran do not help this issue at all. In fact, they added things to make it even *harder* to play Terran.
I had to stop playing the beta after the INEXPLICABLE fungal buff, because it is just fucking stupid now. Well, I say inexplicable, but I think at this point it is obvious that David Kim mains zerg and there is a zerg bias at Blizzard. I think the best thing they could really do is get a couple of good Terran players on the team so that there is at least a Terran voice inside the walls of Blizzard. Or maybe we can all get together and build a big zergling float, and hide a couple Terran players in there and roll it through the front door....
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On December 24 2012 03:43 tomatriedes wrote:
All of these points apply to PvZ too.
Protoss still has 1 allin that works, though :D We envy you.
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On December 24 2012 04:53 Corsica wrote:
Ok this is stupid:
Harassment tactics from Zerg require a disproportionately larger amount of attention for Terran to deal with than Terran harassment does for a Zerg player.
when you drop in 2-3 places You can just stim + amove and if i didnt sent enoguh lings ill probably lose a lot of drones/tech. Not to mention BFH which can kill a lot. If ling runby its your fault for not walling off, spotting it in time, besides they are easy to clean up;.
Ok... lets run through how to do these tactics.
Ling Runby: Press 1, right click. Either let them attack on their own once in, or click 1 once more, click a, right click. If depot wall is up, click once more. Back to macro after 1-2 seconds.
Dropping 3 places at once: 1 shift click to location, 2 shift click to location, 3 shift click to location, back to 1, look for spores/spines/queens, adjust postion, back to 2, repeat, back to 3 repeat. Back to 1, find location is safe and hit D and click. Back to 2, repeat, back to 3, repeat. Back to 1 stim as rines are dropping to actually kill something before the lings get there. Stim others as they drop. Back to 2, repeat, back to 3, repeat. Back to 1, find a building/queen/whatever you can actually damage, reapeat for 2 and 3. When threat of dying gets there either die or load back up, reapeat for 2 and 3. Run medivacs if you are not killed yet for all 3 positions. While doing all of this, if you miss a round of marines or tanks you will probably get overrun, so keep macro going during this process.
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On December 24 2012 03:55 anguyenm wrote:Show nested quote +You make a mistake and lose? Welcome to Starcraft 2. Every race has examples of this happening - it takes some pretty vibrantly tinted whine-goggles to think that this reality is unique to the Terran race. Yes, if you make a couple mistakes, you lose in Starcraft. But in TvZ, if you make one mistake, you can lose your entire army and then the game. That's the difference. If you think that a zerg loses their late game army at 40 minutes can't come back, you haven't been watching the game. You make a mistake as zerg, it's much easier to recover.
It's just Terran in general. Least forgiving race with the most demand for mechanics. There's just a much smaller margin for error while playing Terran.
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Great post!
You detail the exact reasons why I yet again have stopped playing this game. I tried to get started last season but aftering about 200 games and getting close to Masters (EU) I eventually got fed up. The part about attention as a resource is especially key I think.
Further these balance issues and really boring metagame has stopped me from watching StarCraft 2 (GSL) and I used to watch several games each day. Games are really boring to watch becasue they feel too predictable. Watching a Terran player play really well only to make a single mistake after 20 minutes for the game to instant end is excruciating BORING to watch and excruciating frustrating when your playing your self. You feel you wasted 20 minutes essentially. Very anti-climatic.
I have let my GSL monthly subscription run for the last few months still becasue I want to support Tastosis and the rest but I will now be cancelling after not having watched a game for maybe three months. Taking my money to Dota2.
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would love if they do something to creep, its a passive defenders advantage and Zergs where struggling really hard when they didn't use it. And even now they just use it barely, but Blizzard made it easy to spread it without any effort.
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On December 24 2012 03:55 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 03:52 aksfjh wrote:
This is a line of thinking I've always hated in SC2. The Zerg community latches onto the most greedy POS builds they can, pumping nothing but drones and whining at any deviation from that. The idea that Zerg should be making units that aren't endgame units is somehow appalling, but required from Terran and Protoss. Greedy play should be a risk, not something standard. PvZ is a mutual agreement of "You don't attack me I won't attack you" for the first few minutes because Protoss gateway units are very weak (made weak because if they were non-gimped units they would be OP because of warpgate tech and sentry forcefield). Early game aggression (which is the hard counter to greedy play) is nullified because of the zerg's buffs and even further diminished because of map sizes Edit: Another interesting thing of note, queen DPS is 8 vs ground 9 vs air, compare that to a stalker (a unit that costs 25 minerals less and 50 more gas) which has 6.9 DPS. A queen is a very strong defender, especially post range buff
Greedy play is only greedy if it can be punished. Notice how 15 hatch isn't considered greedy, even though the thought of building an expansion as your very first building should be a giant red flag shouting "GREED!" I'm not complaining about it though, because things seem to be balanced pretty well around a hatch first for Zerg.
Things aren't balanced for Zerg and Terran quickly rushing for 3 bases though. The matchup has been volatile and overly punishing for Terrans for months now.
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On December 24 2012 05:09 FeyFey wrote:
would love if they do something to creep, its a passive defenders advantage and Zergs where struggling really hard when they didn't use it. And even now they just use it barely, but Blizzard made it easy to spread it without any effort.
It recedes way too slowly. There is almost no incentive for Terran to clear up creep spread until their push because queens can just poop on it and none if it goes away.
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On December 24 2012 04:11 deltatwist wrote:
nerfs incoming. from db's twitter: "It looks like our last Infestor nerfs were not enough. We will look to patch again sometime in January." about time!
Seriously? Thank god.
Good job, Browder. About fucking time, too.
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On December 24 2012 05:02 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 04:53 Corsica wrote:
Ok this is stupid:
Harassment tactics from Zerg require a disproportionately larger amount of attention for Terran to deal with than Terran harassment does for a Zerg player.
when you drop in 2-3 places You can just stim + amove and if i didnt sent enoguh lings ill probably lose a lot of drones/tech. Not to mention BFH which can kill a lot. If ling runby its your fault for not walling off, spotting it in time, besides they are easy to clean up;. Ok... lets run through how to do these tactics. Ling Runby: Press 1, right click. Either let them attack on their own once in, or click 1 once more, click a, right click. If depot wall is up, click once more. Back to macro after 1-2 seconds. Dropping 3 places at once: 1 shift click to location, 2 shift click to location, 3 shift click to location, back to 1, look for spores/spines/queens, adjust postion, back to 2, repeat, back to 3 repeat. Back to 1, find location is safe and hit D and click. Back to 2, repeat, back to 3, repeat. Back to 1 stim as rines are dropping to actually kill something before the lings get there. Stim others as they drop. Back to 2, repeat, back to 3, repeat. Back to 1, find a building/queen/whatever you can actually damage, reapeat for 2 and 3. When threat of dying gets there either die or load back up, reapeat for 2 and 3. Run medivacs if you are not killed yet for all 3 positions. While doing all of this, if you miss a round of marines or tanks you will probably get overrun, so keep macro going during this process.
I like how you consider a ling runby and dropping in 3 places the same thing, as clearly ling runby will be easier since you're only harassing at one point instead of 3 points. And you can shift-click all of the medivac drops for each hotkey in one move instead of switching between the three over and over, that's just extra actions you don't need to add on.
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Thank god for infestor nerfs. I saw someone mentioned a creep nerf, which would be god send as well. TvZ was my favorite match-up...
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This match up pretty much pushed 50% of foreign terrans out of the game...
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They match-up is definitely zerg favored, but I actually think that army clumping aside, terran is actually much more forgiving as a race than zerg, since they have mules, scans, repair, and can sim city/use range to their advantage.
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On December 05 2012 11:39 Thienan567 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:35 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 05 2012 11:33 chadissilent wrote:
The problem with TvZ is balance whine. Yea man, zergs never whine... Of course they don't! With broodlordinfestor zergs don't really have a reason to complain.
Cough *WonWonWon* Cough Cough.
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[QUOTE]On December 05 2012 13:27 XXXSmOke wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +On December 05 2012 11:47 Lumi wrote:
The Lings of Liberty thread is a troll, lol. It's statistics are laughable. Also, IPL5 had huge Zerg saturation going into it which makes the results pretty inevitable. And you have those exact IPL5 numbers covering a lot of the gap in your overall race winrates in the last 4 months. Should check the seeding on each of th ose to get a better feel for the whole story. Numbers have stories behidn them. Just taking whoevers graphs look like it supports what you think isn't really reflective of someone having dedication to the full, exact story involved. For every tournament you're showing that has zerg favored saturation, or win rates, or championship wins; There are tournaments that show the exact same for other races. Please make some effort to be honest with yourself, and subsequently the people you talk to, about what's going on.
Also, nothing you've said is original. You make a mistake and lose? Welcome to Starcraft 2. Every race has examples of this happening - it takes some pretty vibrantly tinted whine-goggles to think that this reality is unique to the Terran race. Seriously, the people who bring up this 'point' are desperately in need of a clue and some form of basic ability to view things outside of their bias.
Also, it looks like you have outdated writing on an Infestor which has now been nerfed, and are so committed to whining that you haven't bothered to change this. Other than to put "(still)" in your title. I'll leave it to you to figure out, in time, how significant the infestor changes are.
Timing attacks and queen complaints? We pay for those queens, and if zergs weren't shutting down your attacks with those, they would be using roaches and lings instead. It's not as if Z were just sitting around ready to be shit on by a ton of early game aggressive moves by Terran, and with a queen buff that all suddenly became impotent. Early game aggression is just universally an easy thing to scout and handle. If it wasn't, we'd all use it non-stop. But it is. Furthermore, it's not like queens stand up to stuff and say you shall not pass! There are tons of situations where Zerg is naked behind their queens, not even making a spine anymore, or a baneling nest or a roach warren.
Your attention-as-a-resource bit seems founded on the presupposition that Terran is more apm intensive than Z, and your proofs or examples seem to be numbers pulled right from your butt and delivered with confidence. That's not going to work. Do you want to hear me whine about how you can cue up 3 dropships and not look at them while I have to scramble to deal with all the chaos that causes in one unified moment for me? No, you don't, and I don't want to talk about it, because it doesn't actually matter. You need to get over these arbitrary notions for all things having to be, in every way, equal. The races are not designed that way, and the game would be boring if they were. We all have our own unique shit to deal with. Again, for all the examples you put forward in favor of one race, they can be made for the other races. Please realize this.
As for the late g ame, the infestor nerf is quite relevant, as is the seeker missile buff. You're probably into the trend of laughing at that buff, as if its meaningless, because you refuse to acknowledge or be open minded to what it does for your race. It's not just a resource buff, but through that, a buff to the speed and accessability of having seeker missile splashed into your game, sooner than ever and cheaper than ever. Seeker missile has already been getting a ton of use in recent, and to great effect. We've all seen it. So quit pretending you're fucked and nothing is improving or changing so that you can enjoy the sound of your own whining. That isn't going to help you or your community, not at all.
I'm not going to address the late game at large with you, because that would take a ton of time to do comprehensively, and I can't say that you have made the impression of someone who really understands what is going on, nor do you come off as particularly open-minded for your race. You come off as someone dead set on feeling screwed. You must rage a lot, and therefor need a lot of consolation at the racial level, so that you can bypass having to acknowledge your own mistakes.
Deal with it. /sunglasses
Good lord.
All is fine eh?
Give me one example of a common Z "mistake" that is as game changing as leaving your camera off your marine group for even less than second????? Everybody knows that the slightest Terran mistake in TvZ is INSTANT GG, and there are plenty of games to prove it. The last time Z even had a close resemblance to this much of game changing mistake was when they made mutas, but that is obviously out the window now. You use a 3 prong drop as an example of causing you to "have a hard time." but compare how much effort that is on the Terran side(3 battles at once all with different rallys and timings) to the Z side where you hit one(yes one!) F button. So give me an example please.
Your part on the queens is absolutely fucking retarted, you pay for those queens???? o rly?!?!? The whole fucking point of the Z race is that it has to always chose between drones and units to make it to late game safely. Queens do not cost larva(are you sure you still really "pay" for queens?) and since they have been buffed they now become the perfect medium for Z to literally break there races own weakness by getting units without losing drones. So trying to say queens are not the issue is quite the fail, considering how key they are to the whole problem at hand.
Of course you dont "want to discuss the end game at large" because what the hell is a Z to say about Terrans late game. You know its broken once you get the BL/infestor. End of discussion.
Basically you just ignored all of the facts about TvZ and said "Well us Zergs try to damnit!!"
Not a good reply.
I don''t think you understand what he means by "cue up three drops".
Edit: I don't know how I messed up the formatting so badly ^^;;
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I still find it hilarious how TvZ, rly balanced at that time, was ruined by a patch that was supposed to fix ZvP.
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On December 24 2012 05:55 Entteri wrote:
I still find it hilarious how TvZ, rly balanced at that time, was ruined by a patch that was supposed to fix ZvP.
To be fair I don't fully believe that the actual changes in the patch ruined the matchup. It helped for sure but I think it was more to do with the fact that zerg realised just how good queens actually were while at the same time discovering how ridiculously OP infestors are. Combine that with the fact that almost every map favours zerg these days and you've got the current state of TvZ.
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On December 24 2012 05:55 Entteri wrote:
I still find it hilarious how TvZ, rly balanced at that time, was ruined by a patch that was supposed to fix ZvP.
I'm pretty sure it was designed to fix ZvZ and David Kim posted something that Terran can too easily contain zerg in early game.
Kinda lazy to look for the links to blueposts.
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I was incredibly disappointed when you said "instead of whining..." then proceeded to do nothing but bitch.
1) A lot of the "benign" mistakes you mention are not benign mistakes at all. Getting caught without your tanks sieged is not benign, it's a classic mistake that has happened since BW. How about doing what every Terran has done since the beginning of time, and creep your tanks forward? With the huge range, it's not even like it'd take you long. Not taking along a Raven or scanning progressively (especially when you have 3 orbitals) makes it your fault when you get popped with burrowed banelings. Leaving depots in your wall lowered is a "I fucked up" moment, similar to when a Protoss doesn't wall off correctly. It's not imbalance, it's you screwing up. And if Terran screwing up doesn't mean the Zerg should be able to take the prerogative and rush in with zerglings, then I would like to know when they can.
Welcome to Starcraft 2, the game where if you screw up, you'll probably lose.
2) Your accusation that creep spread is "cheap" is the epitome of this article. "I'm not whining....but I am." Creep spread is routinely fought back during pro-games, and there's no reason why you can't in lower league games, especially when we're talking about high masters. The repeated attempts to sell the ENTIRE Terran race short as "We don't have enough APM /SadPandaFace" is silly.
3) That "Lings of Liberty" was a troll thread, by the way.
4) Complaining about Infestors and saying the same thing everyone else has said for the past year isn't going to help your argument any.
5) Your harassment argument is invalid. When you go to expand, you should have to send an army there to clear out any obstacles. That includes sending two marines over to kill any overlords or defend against a potential burrowed zergling. By the time Zerg gets burrow you have enough marines to where you can send four over to an expansion to pre-clear it for expansion.
"Since terran is the only race without cheap, zero unit space, static defense" is A WHINE. You sneak in your complaints in a wall of text, and act like it means you aren't simply complaining. But when you don't say anything that Terran hasn't been saying for the past six months, and you do it in the guise of a learned player that is simply giving forth evidence that we should accept as gospel, you are.
And then "I don't have any answers..." Come on man. You can't make all of these suggestions, admit your bias, then don't even offer any suggestions. That's exactly what complaining is. Whining about something, then not offering any solutions.
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On December 24 2012 06:06 Mauldo wrote:
2) Your accusation that creep spread is "cheap" is the epitome of this article. "I'm not whining....but I am." Creep spread is routinely fought back during pro-games, and there's no reason why you can't in lower league games, especially when we're talking about high masters. The repeated attempts to sell the ENTIRE Terran race short as "We don't have enough APM /SadPandaFace" is silly.
I like how you're just saying "get higher APM or reroll" right here. Sure, screw balance, get quicker hands, better strats and win. Oh, wait.
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Larva inject and infestors are way too good late game. Zerg has to be put under a lot of pressure early on and then continuously harassed late game, in order to play on equal terms. I agree that terran seems to be struggling late game and it's a bit boring to see the whole terran army being fungaled to death, just because the terran player lost focus for a split second.
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On December 24 2012 05:59 ArchAngelSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 05:55 Entteri wrote:
I still find it hilarious how TvZ, rly balanced at that time, was ruined by a patch that was supposed to fix ZvP. To be fair I don't fully believe that the actual changes in the patch ruined the matchup. It helped for sure but I think it was more to do with the fact that zerg realised just how good queens actually were while at the same time discovering how ridiculously OP infestors are. Combine that with the fact that almost every map favours zerg these days and you've got the current state of TvZ.
No believe me it was definitely the patch that ruined it. You could punish queens by kiting with marines and hellions before and it was kindve a sick micro fest but the queen range at 5 makes it so you cant kite. This pretty much makes all fe -> more rax builds not worth doing because you cant punish the zerg for your life. I wish they'd just reset queen range to 3 :/
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On December 24 2012 06:06 Mauldo wrote:
2) Your accusation that creep spread is "cheap" is the epitome of this article. "I'm not whining....but I am." Creep spread is routinely fought back during pro-games, and there's no reason why you can't in lower league games, especially when we're talking about high masters. The repeated attempts to sell the ENTIRE Terran race short as "We don't have enough APM /SadPandaFace" is silly.
.
sorry... but creep spread is not fought back much in pro game tvz until... 14 min when 2-2 done. hellion cant now early cause of queens destroy them, cant make small armys to take out creep becausse speedling take map and will crush bio force early (there is reason why bio pushes fell out of favor to hellion banshee.. cause they can escape).
watch pro game in gsl code s, creep spread often stop terran from taking 4th on map like ohana or cloud kingdom, then the T just pulls all scv and hopes zerg F button is broken.
Also, many pros get "caught" unsieged because creep is so far to their base and they have to quickly get to zerg 4th to try and do damage and force a fight, if they creep tanks it will take too long and broodlord will be out...
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On December 05 2012 13:06 Kaitokid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 13:00 forsooth wrote:On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. What's even more interesting is that many of them will even claim it was necessary. If we look at the January-April TvZ stats (using TLPD charts for reference) for Korea, we get: 51/49 in January 57/43 in February 46/54 in March 46/54 in April International statistics show very close to 50/50 during the same time period, with the biggest disparity being 54/46 in Zerg's favor in March. This means that in the two months leading up to the queen buff, Zergs were actually favored in Korea, the very place where TL's own Zerg contingent always points to when trying to claim that Terran is still fine and dandy. The overlord buff is something that most of the community (myself included) was fine with, but why they decided to buff queens so massively remains a total mystery to me. It was a point in time where everyone loved watching TvZ and the numbers showed that Zerg was performing well in the matchup at the professional level, and Blizzard killed most of its entertainment value while also paving the road for the imbalanced matchup we have today. I believe the reason for the queen buff was that the reactor hellion opening was too strong. Terrans did it every game and there was nothing zerg could do to stop it. basically the standard buildorder for terran was too fixed and safe... I mean its ok if something like 14p is standard but not if a buildorder can be played every single game until 7 minutes into the game. in retro perspective 5 might have been too much though and maybe 4 would have been more appropriate
No... 1 gate expand for P in PvT, FFE for P in PvZ, 15/16/17 or w/e for Z in ZvT, etc etc there used to be a good very safe standard opening in all matchups including Reac hellion expand for T in TvZ until blizzard decided to shit all over their game... the ovie buff was smart. The queen buff was DERP DERP DERP. The reason sc2 is dying and has no viewers imo is single handedly the retarded queen buff... TvZ was everyones favourite matchup and 50/50 until then.
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Really sums up how I feel about the match up. It just doesn't feel dynamic anymore due to the unattackable mid game and brittleness of Terran making them so unforgiving in the match up. I realllly wish HotS was atleast looking at alternatives to queen range if Blizzard felt zerg was too vulnerable to various TvZ all ins (With the overlord speed change, zerg should have now been better able to scout what all in was coming and prepare. Still, if Blizzard feels that isn't enough there HAS to be a better alternative than Queendralisks)
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On December 05 2012 11:39 Entirety wrote:
Honestly, my gut feeling is that TvZ is still imbalanced...
Oh, really? IPL having only ZvZ, MLG with ZvZ fest, or GSL blizz cup where 50% in ro32 were zergs lead you to that conclusion?
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hopefully i can get this answer painlessly
ive heard alot of people whine about the Queen range and how it ruined TvZ but i honestly dont see how thats so except that for some reason Terran stopped using there hellions well
even with more range mass hellions (as shown in MVP VS Life finals) are still completely capable of just outright killing someone, you can still camp hellions outside your opponents natural and prevent alot of creep spread
queens still dont kill hellions quickly and can still be used to heavily delay the third and creep spread and get drone kills hellions jsut cant prevent the Zerg from taking there third until after the Terran has
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I've come to realize that these threads only make me angry.
Sure, tvz feels unfair to play, my main gripe being the zergs easy harassment solutions like burrow infestors and low-risk high reward ling runbys. Moving burrowed units while being nigh invisible is also a big flaw in my opinion.
As someone else noted, it's funny how Terran has become the reactive race that was meant to be Zerg. The crushing power of strategies centered to certain unit compositions that become too powerful without the correct response by Terran in time.
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness.
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On December 24 2012 06:27 Krakoskk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 13:06 Kaitokid wrote:On December 05 2012 13:00 forsooth wrote:On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. What's even more interesting is that many of them will even claim it was necessary. If we look at the January-April TvZ stats (using TLPD charts for reference) for Korea, we get: 51/49 in January 57/43 in February 46/54 in March 46/54 in April International statistics show very close to 50/50 during the same time period, with the biggest disparity being 54/46 in Zerg's favor in March. This means that in the two months leading up to the queen buff, Zergs were actually favored in Korea, the very place where TL's own Zerg contingent always points to when trying to claim that Terran is still fine and dandy. The overlord buff is something that most of the community (myself included) was fine with, but why they decided to buff queens so massively remains a total mystery to me. It was a point in time where everyone loved watching TvZ and the numbers showed that Zerg was performing well in the matchup at the professional level, and Blizzard killed most of its entertainment value while also paving the road for the imbalanced matchup we have today. I believe the reason for the queen buff was that the reactor hellion opening was too strong. Terrans did it every game and there was nothing zerg could do to stop it. basically the standard buildorder for terran was too fixed and safe... I mean its ok if something like 14p is standard but not if a buildorder can be played every single game until 7 minutes into the game. in retro perspective 5 might have been too much though and maybe 4 would have been more appropriate No... 1 gate expand for P in PvT, FFE for P in PvZ, 15/16/17 or w/e for Z in ZvT, etc etc there used to be a good very safe standard opening in all matchups including Reac hellion expand for T in TvZ until blizzard decided to shit all over their game... the ovie buff was smart. The queen buff was DERP DERP DERP. The reason sc2 is dying and has no viewers imo is single handedly the retarded queen buff... TvZ was everyones favourite matchup and 50/50 until then.
There was also so much variation too. 12/14 rax's 12 12 rax's 1rax fe -> 4 rax punish rax fe rax rax gas gas into double medivac drop so much stuff could have been done in TvZ it was the golden age. There were so many builds terran could employ and it made for razor edge games. Now its pretty much the same game EVERY game. Its fucking gross.
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On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I've come to realize that these threads only make me angry.
Sure, tvz feels unfair to play, my main gripe being the zergs easy harassment solutions like burrow infestors and low-risk high reward ling runbys. Moving burrowed units while being nigh invisible is also a big flaw in my opinion.
As someone else noted, it's funny how Terran has become the reactive race that was meant to be Zerg. The crushing power of strategies centered to certain unit compositions that become too powerful without the correct response by Terran in time.
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness.
alot of early nerfs were changed back (just look at the bunker) so now there being much more smart and taking a good look first
also the Zerg was never "meant" to be the reactive race it was just played as the reactive race, when blizz made Zerg they didnt make it around it being reactive
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On December 24 2012 06:38 Forikorder wrote:
hopefully i can get this answer painlessly
ive heard alot of people whine about the Queen range and how it ruined TvZ but i honestly dont see how thats so except that for some reason Terran stopped using there hellions well
even with more range mass hellions (as shown in MVP VS Life finals) are still completely capable of just outright killing someone, you can still camp hellions outside your opponents natural and prevent alot of creep spread
queens still dont kill hellions quickly and can still be used to heavily delay the third and creep spread and get drone kills hellions jsut cant prevent the Zerg from taking there third until after the Terran has
that is only because zergs are now lacking spines and wall ins because they dont need it and thats if the terran gets 10 plus hellions which delays barracks
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On December 24 2012 06:36 truthUnderVeil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:39 Entirety wrote:
Honestly, my gut feeling is that TvZ is still imbalanced... Oh, really? IPL having only ZvZ, MLG with ZvZ fest, or GSL blizz cup where 50% in ro32 were zergs lead you to that conclusion?
GSL season 5 AND blizz cup. And HSC.
I also vote for a creep receding nerf. It is way way too slow. I would even prefer that over another infestor nerf.
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On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness.
Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly.
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On December 24 2012 06:44 Wrathsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:38 Forikorder wrote:
hopefully i can get this answer painlessly
ive heard alot of people whine about the Queen range and how it ruined TvZ but i honestly dont see how thats so except that for some reason Terran stopped using there hellions well
even with more range mass hellions (as shown in MVP VS Life finals) are still completely capable of just outright killing someone, you can still camp hellions outside your opponents natural and prevent alot of creep spread
queens still dont kill hellions quickly and can still be used to heavily delay the third and creep spread and get drone kills hellions jsut cant prevent the Zerg from taking there third until after the Terran has that is only because zergs are now lacking spines and wall ins because they dont need it and thats if the terran gets 10 plus hellions which delays barracks
spines and wall-ins dont help creep spread and taking your third
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On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly.
not really...
blue flame nerf
snipe nerf
were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf)
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On December 24 2012 06:44 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:36 truthUnderVeil wrote:On December 05 2012 11:39 Entirety wrote:
Honestly, my gut feeling is that TvZ is still imbalanced... Oh, really? IPL having only ZvZ, MLG with ZvZ fest, or GSL blizz cup where 50% in ro32 were zergs lead you to that conclusion? GSL season 5 AND blizz cup. And HSC. I also vote for a creep receding nerf. It is way way too slow. I would even prefer that over another infestor nerf.
Why is blizzard so bad at coming up with nerfs? Like, it seems like they identify the problem but then they dont do the correct nerf. "Were seeing alot of creep spread out of zergs so now were going to make it so that raven doesnt have to research seeker missile." That was never the problem =.=.
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On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf)
reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2
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On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2
except that wasn't "taking their time"
o.o
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On December 24 2012 06:48 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 except that wasn't "taking their time" o.o
I think that the reaper one was justified in doing relatively quickly. Snipe was justified too i think, but they just butchered it imo. Shoulda done what QXC was suggesting and what everyone was rallying behind, making snipe do 45 damage but -25 to massive. Now i cant make ghosts and snipe zealots or anything to make them more useful. It kills innovation. QXC showed that when he beat puma by going marine medivac ghost lol.
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On December 24 2012 06:48 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 except that wasn't "taking their time" o.o
because it was an extremely obvious problem with an extremely obvious solution
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Blizzards response is that HotS will be fixing a lot of the issues.
Not all of them, granted, but TvZ in HotS is way easier right now. The game will only be around for a few more months, they wont bother wasting their time 'fixing' things that will be fixed in a couple of months anyway.
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I recall I got temp banned three times in a row when the queen patch first came out. After watching how finesse TvZ early game was int BW for five years, I immediately recognized the ridiculous OP nature of the macro zergs were immediately given, and made that clear... apparently everyone else thought it was completely fair.
I stopped watching SC2 (as I'm sure many BW terrans did) a few weeks later, and didn't start until two days ago. Violia - Terrans getting STILL owned by zerg econ... no surprise there. It saddens me that when zerg have a low win rate, they'll complain and complain until every terran unit got nerfed minimum 2 times, but when terrans complain, it's either A) "Give terrans more time to adjust, they'll think of something", or B) (I quote) "Deal with it" .
I'm not the least bit surprised at all the panic SC2's gotten recently about the rise of DoTA/LoL and crappy viewership. If a race is so horrible its win rate is consistently ~30% tops, then yes, a significant portion of fans are gonna have problems with that.
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I was incredibly disappointed when you said "instead of whining..." then proceeded to do nothing but bitch.
1) A lot of the "benign" mistakes you mention are not benign mistakes at all. Getting caught without your tanks sieged is not benign, it's a classic mistake that has happened since BW. How about doing what every Terran has done since the beginning of time, and creep your tanks forward? With the huge range, it's not even like it'd take you long. Not taking along a Raven or scanning progressively (especially when you have 3 orbitals) makes it your fault when you get popped with burrowed banelings. Leaving depots in your wall lowered is a "I fucked up" moment, similar to when a Protoss doesn't wall off correctly. It's not imbalance, it's you screwing up. And if Terran screwing up doesn't mean the Zerg should be able to take the prerogative and rush in with zerglings, then I would like to know when they can.
Welcome to Starcraft 2, the game where if you screw up, you'll probably lose.
2) Your accusation that creep spread is "cheap" is the epitome of this article. "I'm not whining....but I am." Creep spread is routinely fought back during pro-games, and there's no reason why you can't in lower league games, especially when we're talking about high masters. The repeated attempts to sell the ENTIRE Terran race short as "We don't have enough APM /SadPandaFace" is silly.
3) That "Lings of Liberty" was a troll thread, by the way.
4) Complaining about Infestors and saying the same thing everyone else has said for the past year isn't going to help your argument any.
5) Your harassment argument is invalid. When you go to expand, you should have to send an army there to clear out any obstacles. That includes sending two marines over to kill any overlords or defend against a potential burrowed zergling. By the time Zerg gets burrow you have enough marines to where you can send four over to an expansion to pre-clear it for expansion.
"Since terran is the only race without cheap, zero unit space, static defense" is A WHINE. You sneak in your complaints in a wall of text, and act like it means you aren't simply complaining. But when you don't say anything that Terran hasn't been saying for the past six months, and you do it in the guise of a learned player that is simply giving forth evidence that we should accept as gospel, you are.
And then "I don't have any answers..." Come on man. You can't make all of these suggestions, admit your bias, then don't even offer any suggestions. That's exactly what complaining is. Whining about something, then not offering any solutions.
Thank you Mauldo for taking the time to write such a long reply. Unfortunately, despite your efforts, you have received a grade of F for the following reasons:
- Failure to understand the author's point regarding benign mistakes. The author described the higher quantity of Terran benign mistakes compared to the other races. Your counter argument describes the solution to one of them instead of providing examples of other race's benign mistakes to show that all races have an equal number of benign mistakes.
- Incorrectly identifying creep as the epitome of the article. There are five epitomes, see the tldr sections of the article for their descriptions.
- Telling the author that complaining about infestors isn't going to change anything is false, see DB's tweet regarding pending infestor changes: https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/282656345134612480
- Failure to understand the author's point regarding harassment. The author provided examples of how harassment tactics from Zerg require a disproportionately larger amount of attention for Terran to deal with than Terran harassment does for a Zerg player. Your counter argument describes the solution to one of them instead of providing examples of how harassment tactics from Terran require a disproportionately larger amount of attention for Zerg to deal with than Zerg harassment does for a Terran player.
Thank you for reading, your participation on the Team Liquid forums is both valuable and appreciated by all community members
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actually its true, Blizz is gonna go at there own pace ragardless of the vocal minority
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On December 24 2012 06:50 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:48 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 except that wasn't "taking their time" o.o because it was an extremely obvious problem with an extremely obvious solution
Well one can say that about pretty much anything tbh. Obvious one solution to infestors being very strong is to nerf them to the ground. Then we can argue if that is a smart solution(which I'd not think it would be), just as I'd argue both the blue flame and snipe(especially) nerf were terrible ones. It's just silly to say "yer snipe was never intended to kill non-casters" and then think blizz intended zergs to have up to 35 infestors/swarm of ITs.
Edit: Rereading my post, I think my point wasn't really clear. I'm only saying that they have done terrible knee jerk nerfs in the past. It wasn't an "obvious problem" but it sure was an easy "fix" by blizzard, they just killed the unit and left it out to rot. Sadly with the state of Z, they can't just kill the unit, though it'd probably be the best thing ever for the game, along with a huge buff to an interesting unit such as the hydra, lings, blings or possibly mutas.
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Thank you for your quick reply Forikorder. Due to the short length of your reply, a letter grade cannot be given but I will give you a pass. However, please note that the point in question was not the length of time required to implement the infestor change but whether or not the change will be implemented. It is true that Blizzard took too long but they are indeed planning to make the change, thus making the original point true and not false as you said.
Thank you for reading, your participation on the Team Liquid forums is both valuable and appreciated by all community members.
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On December 24 2012 06:50 Picklebread wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:48 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 except that wasn't "taking their time" o.o I think that the reaper one was justified in doing relatively quickly. Snipe was justified too i think, but they just butchered it imo. Shoulda done what QXC was suggesting and what everyone was rallying behind, making snipe do 45 damage but -25 to massive. Now i cant make ghosts and snipe zealots or anything to make them more useful. It kills innovation. QXC showed that when he beat puma by going marine medivac ghost lol.
This. Ghosts were the only energy unit terrans had that was versatile. Now we have to continually rely on brute force and micro throughout the midgame to win, forcing a smaller number of broods/infestors to the point where we can get the right number of counter units. TvZ is still a one way track where the ONLY cost-effective way of hurting zerg econ is getting a good siege position in the midgame so their bank isn't big enough for 10 broodlords and 8 infestors. By cost-effective I mean early game attacks before say 12 min. rarely have the opportunity to hurt zerg economy unless they zerg screws up. Every TvZ feels static because any cute drone/queen/ling/hatch kills become negligible due to the large amount of larva and superior static defense zergs have at their fingertips.
You can kill drones for 9 min. straight, but you still will have not hurt the zergs economy on 2 bases. They will still have the static army to defend a timing attack. All that you did was minimize the amount of drones they will saturate on their first 2 bases in the midgame. They will still recover in drones and still get up a 3rd and 4th with relative ease.
Edit: Just noticed catnzhat's post and forgot to mention maps. The maps are TOO LARGE. Blizzard has successfully steered every new map pool away from short games to macro games, which zerg successfullly has had with nearly every new patch a buff. It's why many toss still rely on MC-style 2 base all-ins.
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On December 24 2012 06:50 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:48 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 except that wasn't "taking their time" o.o because it was an extremely obvious problem with an extremely obvious solution
Snipe was not an extremely obvious problem. We saw mass ghost in like 3 games. Why didn't Blizzard give Zergs the time to try and figure out a solution? And why did Blizzard take so long to do anything at all about the Zerg unit that was (and is) way better at countering everything Terran has than ghosts ever were against Zerg? And why are they being so cautious and incremental now? It's hypocritical.
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The main problem in my opinion is that infestor holds units in place, it allows chain fungals which completely denies terran micro. In HoTS it is a little easier since their fungal has ~.5 second delay before it hits because it is a projectile. But yea definitely, you definitely need to spend your attention wisely against zerg.
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On December 24 2012 02:58 TheRageNerd wrote:
The reason is, terrans are still clinging onto hellions. So, please, terrans around the world, listen to this little advice.
When you scout the Zerg, if you see a gas, feel free to go for the hellions, because the Zerg will be doing something with the gas, and it's either going to be an all-in (stopped by hellions, unless it's roaches) or a simple speedling opening with less (if any) creep queens.
If you see no gases taken by the Zerg player, he will opt do to the mass queen opening, which is SUPPOSED TO defend againt hellions (queens were designed to shoo off little pesky harass units, such as reapers and, yes that's right, hellions).
Now, what does that mean for the Terran player? Well, for one, queens actually suck against stimmed marines with medivac support. I find that a heavy bio opening works great vs zerg. Basically that 16 marine 2 medivac push is what I'm talking about.
You can kill creep tumors, relatively early in the game, snipe of queen(s), perhaps force a cancel on the third all the while you're making the zerg make defensive units rather than drones all the time, and behind that you're taking a third, grabbing 1-1, later on 2-2, getting your tank count up, and getting map control (at least for a while), but that's not super important in mid game TvZ. And you could also drop like a maniac thanks to that marine medivac push because that makes the Zerg simply forget about the overlord spread, or he doesn't want to spread them around because they could be picked off by those marines you have out. It's basically what the hellions did before the queen patch. Give you good map control, contain the zerg, make him get out units instead of drones. Ultimately, the zerg won't have that crazy 3, even 4 base economy while teching, getting a bunch of infestors and butt-whooping terran all around.
Now, I find this to be very very effective in the current metagame, and I hope that you try it out and have as much success as I do.
Except ling/bane is still viable in that situation. I've been trying and been seeing pros go back to 2 rax openings but opting not to bunker up. Instead you use the marines to kill off transfered drones. That way u can still build up bio/mech off those two rax and on maps like shakuras and cloud kingdom get a wall off against counters.
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The thing about the attention issue, is that it's always easier to attack than it is to defend. Stephano has famously said that the reason he likes Ultras on many maps vs good terrans, is that lots of drop harass can drive you crazy; especially if you play the imba bl infestor. I'm a low masters zerg and guess what, i'm probably even a slower player than you, and I go muta nearly every game vs terran; and I am lolbad with infestors =)! I assure you it's not easy.
There are some "zerg favored" aspects of the game, at least at the highest level of play I won't deny it, but realistically there are always ways for the better player to win. Remember when Fruitdealer won season 1 gsl?
Anyway I have seen a lot of your casts with Halby and I like the content you guys produce, but guess what? I think, "Less QQ. More Pew Pew" is in order.
I don't mean to be a jerk, you are in fact a lot better than I am likely to be soon, if ever. But as a zerg player I can only say that it isn't as easy as people think. And if you're struggling, try and play better. If players like Polt can make headway, than maybe you can too.
And if you lose? Whatever. Do you REALLY care?
PS: Goody has recently taken games off the likes of Stephano, if he hasn't given up hope neither should you. And if you look at heart of the swarm; Terran has a laughably strong advantage that is blatantly easy to abuse in tvz.
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On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2
Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit.
Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable.
You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ.
It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up.
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On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up.
So does ZvZ lol.
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On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up.
infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either.
no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm.
It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time
its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row.
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On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up.
no infesters soft counter terran units by holding them in place so they cant split and doing a decent amount of AoE DPs
Ghosts hard countered Zerg T3 by killing every one of them before they could get a single auto-attack off
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On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row.
I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm?
Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf."
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On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf."
hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think)
Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense
you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time
Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player
once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game
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Even if some points are true we shouldn't forget that before the Queen buff the matchup was very very hard for Zerg. I remember many times where we either saw a Terran all-inning the Zerg who hasn't had the chance to scout it somehow or times where Zerg actually had a hard time staying even on bases with the Terran.
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On December 24 2012 08:12 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf." hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think) Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game
comparing fungal to storm is pointless for obvious reasons...
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On December 24 2012 08:16 roym899 wrote:
Even if some points are true we shouldn't forget that before the Queen buff the matchup was very very hard for Zerg. I remember many times where we either saw a Terran all-inning the Zerg who hasn't had the chance to scout it somehow or times where Zerg actually had a hard time staying even on bases with the Terran.
yes,... it was so hard zerg hovered around 51% win in gsl -.-
maybe u mean it was hard to spread creep without making a handful of roaches??? i think that what u meant. now no need units for anything, just queen
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On December 05 2012 11:17 Nebbish wrote:
That being said, keep in mind that the following analysis applies only to the match up at high masters and above. Below that level, improvements to mechanics and basic decision-making skills will yield wins, period.
Couldn't the same thing be said about "high masters and above"? Mkp just made his eu account sometime in the last week and is already top 8 gm with a record of ~130-30 on a server populated with more zergs than the other two races, so whatever balance issues anyone experiences at high masters could be overcome by just being as good as a code s Terran.
+ Show Spoiler +
it's absurd to tell high masters players to, "just get as good as code S Terrans, where the game is balanced" just to beat high masters zerg players, so why is it any different for any other league? I agree with the problems discussed in the op, it just annoys me that balanced is always dismissed below league C because if you were good enough to get to league B the difference in skill would be so great that balance wouldn't matter. If 2 players of equal skill and different races don't have 50-50 shot of beating each other, something is broken or at least worth looking into instead of just dismissed because it didn't happen in x leauge.
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On December 24 2012 08:23 EclipseT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:16 roym899 wrote:
Even if some points are true we shouldn't forget that before the Queen buff the matchup was very very hard for Zerg. I remember many times where we either saw a Terran all-inning the Zerg who hasn't had the chance to scout it somehow or times where Zerg actually had a hard time staying even on bases with the Terran. yes,... it was so hard zerg hovered around 51% win in gsl -.- maybe u mean it was hard to spread creep without making a handful of roaches??? i think that what u meant. now no need units for anything, just queen
I don't know where you pull these numbers from and they don't even matter to me. The way you talk also implies you are kinda butthurt and it'll be quite hard to talk with you about this in a normal way, but I don't want to let your post remain unanswered: The matchup was quite a bit about predicting and less about skill because it was just impossible for Zerg to either scout reliable for all-in / marco play or just play a solid style which was safe against everything Terran could throw at them. So this results in situations where Zerg just had to guess what the Terran was doing. Ofc they guessed right some times and the games turned out to be balanced but it happened more then only one time that a Terran got a 3rd rediculously fast compared to the Zerg without the fear of anything.
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On December 24 2012 07:22 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:50 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:48 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 except that wasn't "taking their time" o.o because it was an extremely obvious problem with an extremely obvious solution Snipe was not an extremely obvious problem. We saw mass ghost in like 3 games. Why didn't Blizzard give Zergs the time to try and figure out a solution? And why did Blizzard take so long to do anything at all about the Zerg unit that was (and is) way better at countering everything Terran has than ghosts ever were against Zerg? And why are they being so cautious and incremental now? It's hypocritical.
Okay i play terran and your just being completely biased here. Your not thinking of it from the zerg side. Literally everything they could go, BL, Ultra was countered by ghosts and there was nothing they could do about it. And it wasnt just 3 games it was dozens of games after MVP showcased it. I had a good like 2-3 weeks myself to try it out and I was low masters beating mid masters that were out playing me in the midgame but i just turtled with ghosts in the late game and there was nothing he could do except try and go nydus. My point is that to fix the goddamn problem was not to nerf ghosts to hell it was to make it -25 to massive so you couldnt just kill everything. Because they did what they did ghosts suck against everythin LITERALLY EVERYTHING except spellcasters. Theres no point in going like say ghost first in TvT because you cant snipe marines I mean it lead to interesting builds.
Your post is why people all whine about terrans whining because thats exactly what your doing: whining without having a shred of objectiveness. This is why we cant have good discussions.
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On December 24 2012 08:22 Fyy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:12 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf." hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think) Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game comparing fungal to storm is pointless for obvious reasons...
Why is it pointless?
They're both fairly similar IMO. The standard argument is that storm doesn't root the units.No, but it does twice the DPS (and therefore takes half the energy to kill the same number of marines). If you have X medivacs, X marines will survive a fungal. If you have X medivacs, 0 marines survive a storm no matter what X is.
Fungal roots but storm does twice the DPS. Storm takes less energy, but ghosts are more prevalent in the matchup. They're both similar, and honestly I don't see fungal being any more of a problem vT than storm is, except that Zerg makes more infestors than Protoss make HT, so Zerg has more fungals to throw around than a Protoss has storms. Still, I don't see a significant difference that makes one spell decisively better than the other.
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5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Furthermore more than over a year of BL/infestors being almost impossible to beat for both P&T. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make.
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On December 24 2012 08:30 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:22 Fyy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:12 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf." hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think) Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game comparing fungal to storm is pointless for obvious reasons... Why is it pointless? They're both fairly similar IMO. The standard argument is that storm doesn't root the units.No, but it does twice the DPS (and therefore takes half the energy to kill the same number of marines). If you have X medivacs, X marines will survive a fungal. If you have X medivacs, 0 marines survive a storm no matter what X is. Fungal roots but storm does twice the DPS. Storm takes less energy, but ghosts are more prevalent in the matchup. They're both similar, and honestly I don't see fungal being any more of a problem vT than storm is, except that Zerg makes more infestors than Protoss make HT, so Zerg has more fungals to throw around than a Protoss has storms. Still, I don't see a significant difference that makes one spell decisively better than the other.
Because you cant chain storm an army to death like you can with fungal you can dodge and take minimal damage but if you get fungaled then its just f'd. TvP is pretty fine considering. The problem is because theres BL and Corrupters so its like how do I deal with that when they can fungal my ravens and fungal my marines so that they cant touch their BL and their corruptors can just kill the vikings so easy with the support and its so hard for terran to deal with. TvP is very dynamic, TvZ doesnt feel that way.
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On December 24 2012 08:30 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:22 Fyy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:12 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf." hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think) Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game comparing fungal to storm is pointless for obvious reasons... Why is it pointless? They're both fairly similar IMO. The standard argument is that storm doesn't root the units.No, but it does twice the DPS (and therefore takes half the energy to kill the same number of marines). If you have X medivacs, X marines will survive a fungal. If you have X medivacs, 0 marines survive a storm no matter what X is. Fungal roots but storm does twice the DPS. Storm takes less energy, but ghosts are more prevalent in the matchup. They're both similar, and honestly I don't see fungal being any more of a problem vT than storm is, except that Zerg makes more infestors than Protoss make HT, so Zerg has more fungals to throw around than a Protoss has storms. Still, I don't see a significant difference that makes one spell decisively better than the other.
One thing to note is that infestors take up way more space than ht's so you get a lot less in emps even if there is no spreading.
And infestors fighting back (ghosts fungaled = bye bye) can have way more of a drastic impact.
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On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make.
Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race.
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On December 05 2012 12:31 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote:
I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies.
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge.
I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. As much as I'm all for change, and I'm too new to the game to have played before 3 queen range, but weren't hellions the most overpowered shit in the game? You could deny Zerg's third while taking a third of your own for free, and Zerg had to invest >300 minerals defensively just to survive the first 4-6 hellions? That's like Protoss having to build 2 more cannons to defend the first few lings of Zerg, seems kind of bullshit. Like my impression was that not only did hellions deny Zerg's third base (which is OK), but they could also trade effectively for drones, every time. Just providing the counterargument, again I never played back then.
. what are u talking about. terran made 4-6 helli. thats 400-600 minerals. ofcourse he can run helli around. if u only make drones instead of lings, u will get runby. if u make 500mineral worth of lings, thats about 20 lings u can fend off those hellion and also threaten terran's 3rd too. play greedy and u lose drone...
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On December 24 2012 08:30 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:22 Fyy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:12 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf." hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think) Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game comparing fungal to storm is pointless for obvious reasons... Why is it pointless? They're both fairly similar IMO. The standard argument is that storm doesn't root the units.No, but it does twice the DPS (and therefore takes half the energy to kill the same number of marines). If you have X medivacs, X marines will survive a fungal. If you have X medivacs, 0 marines survive a storm no matter what X is. Fungal roots but storm does twice the DPS. Storm takes less energy, but ghosts are more prevalent in the matchup. They're both similar, and honestly I don't see fungal being any more of a problem vT than storm is, except that Zerg makes more infestors than Protoss make HT, so Zerg has more fungals to throw around than a Protoss has storms. Still, I don't see a significant difference that makes one spell decisively better than the other.
ever saw someone sitting out every single storm?
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On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Furthermore more than over a year of BL/infestors being almost impossible to beat for both P&T. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make.
even if infesters are as "almost impossible" to stop as you say mass ghost was literally impossible to stop
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On December 24 2012 04:53 Corsica wrote:
Ok this is stupid:
Harassment tactics from Zerg require a disproportionately larger amount of attention for Terran to deal with than Terran harassment does for a Zerg player.
when you drop in 2-3 places You can just stim + amove and if i didnt sent enoguh lings ill probably lose a lot of drones/tech. Not to mention BFH which can kill a lot. If ling runby its your fault for not walling off, spotting it in time, besides they are easy to clean up;.
You have overlords to spot drops coming. You have insane movement on creep. You have mobile static defense.
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On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race.
You wont find 10 games on high level (without mouse wheel bug) where a zerg army dissapears in 3 secs like is being propposed.
Im just implying that the arguements are bad I honestly dont give a flying f about the ghost nerf because it was boring to watch&play. 2 sides turtle to mass bl/inf vs mass ghost/vik ftw.
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On December 24 2012 08:44 4Servy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. You wont find 10 games on high level (without mouse wheel bug) where a zerg army dissapears in 3 secs like is being propposed. Im just implying that the arguements are bad I honestly dont give a flying fuck about the ghost nerf bc it was boring to watch&play.
Mouse wheel bug came out a bit after mvp started showing how to mass snipe.
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On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf)
I myself am surprised looking back at the snipe nerf. It was what, 2 months since it became common place before it was nerfed to the ground and fungal is just as good / better than snipe was and it's been unchanged for a long time (excluding the beta ofc)
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On December 24 2012 08:44 4Servy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. You wont find 10 games on high level (without mouse wheel bug) where a zerg army dissapears in 3 secs like is being propposed. Im just implying that the arguements are bad I honestly dont give a flying fuck about the ghost nerf bc it was boring to watch&play.
Yeah they whined and they got what they wanted but it was justified. Their argument was bad but if you saw the games you'd know how hopeless it was for the zerg. What are they supposed to do? Thats what I always wondered whenever I watched those games.
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On December 24 2012 08:30 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:22 Fyy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:12 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf." hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think) Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game comparing fungal to storm is pointless for obvious reasons... Why is it pointless? They're both fairly similar IMO. The standard argument is that storm doesn't root the units.No, but it does twice the DPS (and therefore takes half the energy to kill the same number of marines). If you have X medivacs, X marines will survive a fungal. If you have X medivacs, 0 marines survive a storm no matter what X is. Fungal roots but storm does twice the DPS. Storm takes less energy, but ghosts are more prevalent in the matchup. They're both similar, and honestly I don't see fungal being any more of a problem vT than storm is, except that Zerg makes more infestors than Protoss make HT, so Zerg has more fungals to throw around than a Protoss has storms. Still, I don't see a significant difference that makes one spell decisively better than the other.
The ignorance is strong with this one..
Several points:
Terrans dont sit into storms, when they do get hit they run out so the storm doesnt do it's full potential of damage. Where fungal always does the full amount.
Protoss cant make 10+ HT's cause they clump up and EMP is too effective against it.. Infestors are huge so they dont have this problem, ghost arent even made due to this
Zerg still have the energy upgrade, protoss has to wait for 75 energy. And you still have infested terrans when you dont have enough energy for fungal which makes it useful for dps too..
Edit: Havent even mentioned chain fungals..
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On December 24 2012 08:47 Picklebread wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:44 4Servy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. You wont find 10 games on high level (without mouse wheel bug) where a zerg army dissapears in 3 secs like is being propposed. Im just implying that the arguements are bad I honestly dont give a flying fuck about the ghost nerf bc it was boring to watch&play. Yeah they whined and they got what they wanted but it was justified. Their argument was bad but if you saw the games you'd know how hopeless it was for the zerg. What are they supposed to do? Thats what I always wondered whenever I watched those games.
its called tech switch to back to lings and own his mass ghosts, and zergs were doing that.
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On December 24 2012 08:50 Addict wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:30 Mavvie wrote:On December 24 2012 08:22 Fyy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:12 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:
[quote]
Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf." hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think) Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game comparing fungal to storm is pointless for obvious reasons... Why is it pointless? They're both fairly similar IMO. The standard argument is that storm doesn't root the units.No, but it does twice the DPS (and therefore takes half the energy to kill the same number of marines). If you have X medivacs, X marines will survive a fungal. If you have X medivacs, 0 marines survive a storm no matter what X is. Fungal roots but storm does twice the DPS. Storm takes less energy, but ghosts are more prevalent in the matchup. They're both similar, and honestly I don't see fungal being any more of a problem vT than storm is, except that Zerg makes more infestors than Protoss make HT, so Zerg has more fungals to throw around than a Protoss has storms. Still, I don't see a significant difference that makes one spell decisively better than the other. The ignorance is strong with this one.. Several points: Terrans dont sit into storms, when they do get hit they run out so the storm doesnt do it's full potential of damage. Where fungal always does the full amount. Protoss cant make 10+ HT's cause they clump up and EMP is too effective against it.. Infestors are huge so they dont have this problem, ghost arent even made due to this Zerg still have the energy upgrade, protoss has to wait for 75 energy. And you still have infested terrans when you dont have enough energy for fungal which makes it useful for dps too..
Good points. TvP is fine.
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On December 24 2012 08:51 EclipseT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:47 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:44 4Servy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. You wont find 10 games on high level (without mouse wheel bug) where a zerg army dissapears in 3 secs like is being propposed. Im just implying that the arguements are bad I honestly dont give a flying fuck about the ghost nerf bc it was boring to watch&play. Yeah they whined and they got what they wanted but it was justified. Their argument was bad but if you saw the games you'd know how hopeless it was for the zerg. What are they supposed to do? Thats what I always wondered whenever I watched those games. its called tech switch to back to lings and own his mass ghosts, and zergs were doing that.
Through the simcity? Cloak? Good luck.
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On December 24 2012 08:51 EclipseT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:47 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:44 4Servy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. You wont find 10 games on high level (without mouse wheel bug) where a zerg army dissapears in 3 secs like is being propposed. Im just implying that the arguements are bad I honestly dont give a flying fuck about the ghost nerf bc it was boring to watch&play. Yeah they whined and they got what they wanted but it was justified. Their argument was bad but if you saw the games you'd know how hopeless it was for the zerg. What are they supposed to do? Thats what I always wondered whenever I watched those games. its called tech switch to back to lings and own his mass ghosts, and zergs were doing that.
the marines and ghosts could take on infinte lings and be fine 3/3 marines and ghosts can wade in Zerglings as needed
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On December 24 2012 08:30 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:22 Fyy wrote:On December 24 2012 08:12 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 08:07 slytown wrote:On December 24 2012 07:54 FXOjEcho wrote:On December 24 2012 07:47 Prog455 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 06:46 zhurai wrote:On December 24 2012 06:44 Sabu113 wrote:On December 24 2012 06:41 herMan wrote:
I also feel frustrated with blizzards hypocrisy about nerfing stuff. Back when terrans had something regarded as OP, the nerf hammer struck almost immediately. But now with the infestor which has sparked a public outcry lasting over six months, blizzard chose to wait and see if players could innovate around the ridiculousness. Nope. Blizz tended to take its time with patches in general despite outcries that they patch too quickly. not really... blue flame nerf snipe nerf were done really relatively quickly (not to mention the reaper nerf) reaper and snife nerf were obvious problems, when 5 rax reaper was practically unstoppable and snipe literally hard countered all Zerg T3 and T2 Infestors literally hard counter every Terran unit. Infestors counter: Drops, Marine, Hellions, Marauders, Tanks, Banshees and Vikings. Not to mention that they are not really bad against any Terran units. At their weakest they are not optimal but still viable. You may say that people who whine that Zerg is too strong is a vocal minority, but when Flash (as the last non-zerg in the tournament) was beaten by Life in the semi-finals of MLG Fall Championship, the viewer count dropped by 10.000 in an instant. I honestly don't think that declining viewership numbers are a result of too many tournaments. No. Declining viewership numbers are caused by endless ZvZ finals. Even Rotterdam complained during HSC 6 that he is bored with ZvZ. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time, but atleast TvT has potential to be a very entertaining match up. infestors dont counter tanks, thors mauraduers, (drops) is just you attempting to extend your list since they arent good vs medvivacs either. no idea why terran complain about walking completely balled up into fungals but dont have that probelm walking into storm. It is very possible that Terran was just as OP for a long time its not very possible, its 100% true, hence getting hit with the nerfbat approx 10x in a row. I understand you're a progamer and on my favorite team but can I ask you to explain how infestors are not good against stopping medivacs or why terrans have a harder time against fungals vs. storm? Also, I think the point many here are trying to make is how immediate the nerfs were when terrans started using a certain strategy, or like when ghost cost was changed terrans finally started massing them. Consider how long massing infestors has been viable, even after the "nerf." hes saying that if you complain about fungal you should complain about storm (i think) Infesters are not good agaisnt stopping drops because unless the infester is already there and you manage to fungal over dead space the units get out and just start killing the infesters and split up and takes an infinite amount of fungals to kill a medivac so its not cost effective to use infesters as drop defense you can use them to kill medivacs but it takes alot of energy and time Ghosts could kill like 8 ultras in 8 seconds infesters cant even kill 8 marines in 8 seconds infesters are support units that make your other units better theres no popint in time where "well he hit critical mass of infesters he wins"it still always come down to the player once a Terran hits critical mass of ghost he wins because no T3 can do damage and T1/2 is useless that late in the game comparing fungal to storm is pointless for obvious reasons... Why is it pointless? They're both fairly similar IMO. The standard argument is that storm doesn't root the units.No, but it does twice the DPS (and therefore takes half the energy to kill the same number of marines). If you have X medivacs, X marines will survive a fungal. If you have X medivacs, 0 marines survive a storm no matter what X is. Fungal roots but storm does twice the DPS. Storm takes less energy, but ghosts are more prevalent in the matchup. They're both similar, and honestly I don't see fungal being any more of a problem vT than storm is, except that Zerg makes more infestors than Protoss make HT, so Zerg has more fungals to throw around than a Protoss has storms. Still, I don't see a significant difference that makes one spell decisively better than the other.
Can't emp as many infestors as HT
Infestors move faster
Infestors move even FASTER on creep
Infestors can go invisible
Fungle has a wider radius
Fungle roots
If fungle hits you then you're going to take all of its damage and there's nothing you can do about it.
But yeah other than that they're pretty much the same .....
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On December 05 2012 11:33 chadissilent wrote:
The problem with TvZ is balance whine.
[B]as well as the people who whine about others whining.
Your argument goes around in circles
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Great write-up. Lots of "awesome" two sentence responses from Zerg like "oh you just qq all the time"... *sigh*
Honestly guys, there's so much depth to this, and Nebbish did a great job of breaking it down. Although there's a TON more he could have brought up and said, there's a point where you can only say so much without completely drowning in details.
Picture this:
Zerg opens hatch first, 5 minute 3rd, 3 queens (1 in main, 2 in natural), pure drone.
Terran opens 4 naked rax, expo at 6 mins, double gas at 6:15. 18 marines show up at Zerg's doorstep at 6:15, and 4 marines at a time from there on out.
If you're designing a game of counters... who should win this match?
If you've played TvZ any amount of time, who do you think survives this rather easily with minimal damage and 3 living hatcheries? (And before you say "so what, go kill the 3rd", big freaking deal, so now your early aggression means you're only completely economically behind). Zerg's lost $300 and a drone, and you've wasted $1000 - $1500 on marines that you don't need right now and can't do jack with.
NOW, picture this:
Terran opens CC first, into rax, into 6 minute 3rd in place.
Zerg opens hatch first, pool, into 6 initial lings.
How much damage is that $150 guaranteed to do to the Terran? Now Terran is sitting on 1 base again because his CC's are both flying in the air doing nothing and all his SCV's are dead at the natural (and the construction SCV at the 3rd, if he finishes it in time).
Sorry, it's a very bad design IMHO. Lots could be fixed (and needs to be), and like Nebbish, I don't pretend to have the answers. I have some ideas that could help fill some holes (like if anyone ever gets into a Terran's production area, they're guaranteed to win the game because our units pop out one at a time in different spots, and just get picked off). Things like drop pods would help things like that, but that's getting way off topic.
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Let me repeat what I have said and called for in the other thread. Blizzard need to fire Dustin Browder and his sidekick Robin, uhm I mean Kim and put Rob Pardo and Starcraft 1 designer in charge again. Rob Pardo is a genious, that man is behind all of the success and game development at Blizzard and he was responsible for the SC2 campaign. While the SC2 story sucked, the campaign was a blast and the new one seems to be even better. Rob Pardo needs to be put in charge of multiplayer and the infiltrators Dustin Browder and David Kim the two big Red Alert noobs need to be fired.
So lets all push for Blizzard to fire Browder and Kim before they destroy SC2 completely and lets have Rob Pardo take over multiplayer development again.
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On December 24 2012 09:04 barwick11 wrote:
Great write-up. Lots of "awesome" two sentence responses from Zerg like "oh you just qq all the time"... *sigh*
Honestly guys, there's so much depth to this, and Nebbish did a great job of breaking it down. Although there's a TON more he could have brought up and said, there's a point where you can only say so much without completely drowning in details.
Picture this:
Zerg opens hatch first, 5 minute 3rd, 3 queens (1 in main, 2 in natural), pure drone.
Terran opens 4 naked rax, expo at 6 mins, double gas at 6:15. 18 marines show up at Zerg's doorstep at 6:15, and 4 marines at a time from there on out.
If you're designing a game of counters... who should win this match?
If you've played TvZ any amount of time, who do you think survives this rather easily with minimal damage and 3 living hatcheries? (And before you say "so what, go kill the 3rd", big freaking deal, so now your early aggression means you're only completely economically behind). Zerg's lost $300 and a drone, and you've wasted $1000 - $1500 on marines that you don't need right now and can't do jack with.
NOW, picture this:
Terran opens CC first, into rax, into 6 minute 3rd in place.
Zerg opens hatch first, pool, into 6 initial lings.
How much damage is that $150 guaranteed to do to the Terran? Now Terran is sitting on 1 base again because his CC's are both flying in the air doing nothing and all his SCV's are dead at the natural (and the construction SCV at the 3rd, if he finishes it in time).
Sorry, it's a very bad design IMHO. Lots could be fixed (and needs to be), and like Nebbish, I don't pretend to have the answers. I have some ideas that could help fill some holes (like if anyone ever gets into a Terran's production area, they're guaranteed to win the game because our units pop out one at a time in different spots, and just get picked off). Things like drop pods would help things like that, but that's getting way off topic.
if the zerg opens hatch first, then pool and makes 6 lings and those lings do anything then your very very bad
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I don´t think so. First of all I have no idea who you are. Where do you take your knowledge from? The last patch is so recent that only tiptop players should be able to make good evaluations of the situation. Secondly in Korea winrates are quite decent. I think Blizzard is looking at the wrong tournaments (probably on purpose) and are trying to get the community in a good mood. I don´t mind because I think fungal is an abomination and should burn in hell, but I don´t think its necessary from a balance perspective.
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On December 05 2012 11:35 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:33 chadissilent wrote:
The problem with TvZ is balance whine. Yea man, zergs never whine...
All sides whine, it's just Terrans taking their turn.
OP should try playing as a Zerg, because he overlooks things like the options terran has to harass, and the strengths of terran. (e.g. wall off the run-bys)
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On December 24 2012 09:04 barwick11 wrote:
Things like drop pods would help things like that, but that's getting way off topic.
Omg, drop pods would help Terran a lot with their archaic production they have against Warpgates and Larva, I want.
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there is NO doubt that the infestor is still too strong. The problem is not when you have 5-10 infestors, it is when you have 15+. No army in the game can stop a billion IT's + fungal + neural. The infestor is the single greatest army unit in the game AND it is the most versatile spellcaster aswell.
There is no doubt that they will get nerfed. The question is, can Blizzard get the perfect balance, making it a unit that is not worth massing - but yet still making it useful?
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On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race.
The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now.
What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing.
10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used?
And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports.
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On December 24 2012 09:10 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:35 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 05 2012 11:33 chadissilent wrote:
The problem with TvZ is balance whine. Yea man, zergs never whine... All sides whine, it's just Terrans taking their turn. OP should try playing as a Zerg, because he overlooks things like the options terran has to harass, and the strengths of terran. (e.g. wall off the run-bys)
I know him. He off-races as Zerg a good amount, and so does Halby, for that exact reason you describe.
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Never had any problems with infestors or the matchup in general until queens got a buff that doesn't make any sense. Being able to play super greedy no matter what and be completely safe is really dumb and makes for a stupid matchup where Zerg have multiple options, while Terran only option is to play greedy and hope zerg just doesn't decide to do some kind of all-in (or pressure actually, zerg's never really all-in)
It was an awesome matchup to play and watch until that ridiculous change got introduced to the game and ruined it all..
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On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports.
ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes
Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane
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On December 24 2012 09:08 Forikorder wrote:
if the zerg opens hatch first, then pool and makes 6 lings and those lings do anything then your very very bad
Did you not read my post? And I quote:
Imagine Terran opens expo first, 1 rax, into 3rd CC in place. Zerg simply makes those first 6 lings.
First off, nobody does this because it's going to get crushed every single game by any Zerg with two nickels to rub together upstairs. Second off, my entire point was, this is equivalent to what Zerg does in a LOT of games and is 98% *completely* safe doing it.
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On December 24 2012 09:18 barwick11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 09:08 Forikorder wrote:
if the zerg opens hatch first, then pool and makes 6 lings and those lings do anything then your very very bad Did you not read my post? And I quote: Imagine Terran opens expo first, 1 rax, into 3rd CC in place. Zerg simply makes those first 6 lings. First off, nobody does this because it's going to get crushed every single game by any Zerg with two nickels to rub together upstairs. Second off, my entire point was, this is equivalent to what Zerg does in a LOT of games and is 98% *completely* safe doing it.
if terran opens 3 base and the zerg goes 2 base and makes 6 lings and does damage the terran is very very bad
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Patch incoming next month, will nerf Z. (says dustin browder)
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On December 24 2012 09:21 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 09:18 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 09:08 Forikorder wrote:
if the zerg opens hatch first, then pool and makes 6 lings and those lings do anything then your very very bad Did you not read my post? And I quote: Imagine Terran opens expo first, 1 rax, into 3rd CC in place. Zerg simply makes those first 6 lings. First off, nobody does this because it's going to get crushed every single game by any Zerg with two nickels to rub together upstairs. Second off, my entire point was, this is equivalent to what Zerg does in a LOT of games and is 98% *completely* safe doing it. if terran opens 3 base and the zerg goes 2 base and makes 6 lings and does damage the terran is very very bad
to get the 3rd base as fast as zerg requires the terran to skip marines.. zerg will do damage
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On December 24 2012 09:26 Fyy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 09:21 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:18 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 09:08 Forikorder wrote:
if the zerg opens hatch first, then pool and makes 6 lings and those lings do anything then your very very bad Did you not read my post? And I quote: Imagine Terran opens expo first, 1 rax, into 3rd CC in place. Zerg simply makes those first 6 lings. First off, nobody does this because it's going to get crushed every single game by any Zerg with two nickels to rub together upstairs. Second off, my entire point was, this is equivalent to what Zerg does in a LOT of games and is 98% *completely* safe doing it. if terran opens 3 base and the zerg goes 2 base and makes 6 lings and does damage the terran is very very bad to get the 3rd base as fast as zerg requires the terran to skip marines.. zerg will do damage
He's one of those zerg players who can play terran at such a high level he doesn't actually need units to win. Like most other zergs on TL actually now that I think about it.... ^_~
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On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race.
It seems like you lived in some alternate reality. There was lietrally 5 games with amss ghost on pro level mos of them with MVP defeating inferior players but somehow every master Terran player was owning Zerg at the same time.
If there was more games just point them out i''ll wait.
Also your last sentence is hilarious.
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On December 24 2012 09:16 cArn- wrote:
Never had any problems with infestors or the matchup in general until queens got a buff that doesn't make any sense. Being able to play super greedy no matter what and be completely safe is really dumb and makes for a stupid matchup where Zerg have multiple options, while Terran only option is to play greedy and hope zerg just doesn't decide to do some kind of all-in (or pressure actually, zerg's never really all-in)
It was an awesome matchup to play and watch until that ridiculous change got introduced to the game and ruined it all..
^^^ bump
Something needs to happen to queens. They can keep their creep spread if blizzard makes them cost larvae.
Honestly if we got back to the pre-queen, pre-ghost nerf I think zergs wouldn't have so much trouble considering they know how versatile queens and infestors are at this point.
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I think the point blizzard is making is that they don't want to make korean terrans too strong, nor foreign terrans too weak. So currently foreign terrans suffer in the meta.
Move to korea or wait for hots. I suppose.
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On December 24 2012 09:36 slytown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 09:16 cArn- wrote:
Never had any problems with infestors or the matchup in general until queens got a buff that doesn't make any sense. Being able to play super greedy no matter what and be completely safe is really dumb and makes for a stupid matchup where Zerg have multiple options, while Terran only option is to play greedy and hope zerg just doesn't decide to do some kind of all-in (or pressure actually, zerg's never really all-in)
It was an awesome matchup to play and watch until that ridiculous change got introduced to the game and ruined it all.. ^^^ bump Something needs to happen to queens. They can keep their creep spread if blizzard makes them cost larvae. Honestly if we got back to the pre-queen, pre-ghost nerf I think zergs wouldn't have so much trouble considering they know how versatile queens and infestors are at this point.
If queens cost larvae, you will see a lot more queens more quickly, will you not? And forget about banshee, cause even if the zerg has no queens, he will just pop up to 8 larvae into queens and voilla.. Really think you're shooting yourself in the foot here.
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On December 24 2012 09:35 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. It seems like you lived in some alternate reality. There was lietrally 5 games with amss ghost on pro level mos of them with MVP defeating inferior players but somehow every master Terran player was owning Zerg at the same time. If there was more games just point them out i''ll wait. Also your last sentence is hilarious.
The ghost was only overpowered during those games because of maps like shakuras where 2 or 3 PFs completely split the map in half... I'm pretty sure if you give ghosts 45dmg snipes back on a map like Whirlwind, the game would look very very different.
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On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane
Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily
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On December 24 2012 09:41 Cutlery wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 09:36 slytown wrote:On December 24 2012 09:16 cArn- wrote:
Never had any problems with infestors or the matchup in general until queens got a buff that doesn't make any sense. Being able to play super greedy no matter what and be completely safe is really dumb and makes for a stupid matchup where Zerg have multiple options, while Terran only option is to play greedy and hope zerg just doesn't decide to do some kind of all-in (or pressure actually, zerg's never really all-in)
It was an awesome matchup to play and watch until that ridiculous change got introduced to the game and ruined it all.. ^^^ bump Something needs to happen to queens. They can keep their creep spread if blizzard makes them cost larvae. Honestly if we got back to the pre-queen, pre-ghost nerf I think zergs wouldn't have so much trouble considering they know how versatile queens and infestors are at this point. If queens cost larvae, you will see a lot more queens more quickly, will you not? And forget about banshee, cause even if the zerg has no queens, he will just pop up to 8 larvae into queens and voilla.. Really think you're shooting yourself in the foot here.
The point is that queen production does absolutely nothing to zerg's drone production. having to spend 8 larva on queens when zerg is probably on 2base/starting to set up 3rd will still be a pretty strong slow down of zerg economy, and make early pressure a worthwhile investment.
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On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily
I put it in an earlier post, but the ghost army was mainly OP due to map design where it only took a few PFs to split the map perfectly 50/50 (think Shakuras). PFs + a good wall and those lings are worthless. Also keep in mind the ghost army was actually popular with mech builds too, so some hellions and ghosts hiding behind a few thors? good luck zerglings!
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On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane
I don't understand why people keep argueing that ghosts are good against ultras. How many f***ing ghosts are you allowing the terran to get, and where is your army? Ultras took 12 snipes to kill, or 300 energy. Get like 5 ultras, run them in and if the terran snipes them, the stream of sling/bling after them would decimate them. Ghosts were hardly good against ultras, they just cushioned the tech switching blow, but more importantly, since you were making ghosts, you had tech labs so you were ready to make rauders, which ofcourse slaughter ultras.
Furtheremore, it was only on a handful of maps where getting this kind of ghost army without just getting killed was possible(assuming you hadn't already essentially won the game), it was: metalopolis and shakuras. Personally I just think those 2 maps(and the big brother of meta) are just stupid and that was a lot bigger problem than ghosts.
Nowadays terran is missing that unit/ability that works good/decently on both t3. Add insult into injury, ghost/infestor war just isn't very good in TvZ, since ghosts are so useless except for sniping infestors. Compare it to TvP, if the hts hide behind the main army, atleast you can throw down EMPs. If the zerg army engages with the infestors hanging back for the start, the ghosts either move back or die from BL/tanks and the infestors are now safely protecting the BLs underneath(so the corruptors can fly backwards and if vikings follow they get FG'd). The caster dynamic is just so different due to BLs and corruptor/viking war.
I'm not saying snipe shouldn't have been nerfed, it probably should've. However you don't castrate it. Fx. changing it to 35 dmg(or better 45dmg with -10 massive, or 35+10 psionic) would've been much better, so instead of an increase of required snipes by 50%/75%(BL/ultra) it'd be 16,7%/25% and see where that lands us.
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Nerf queen range. Buff ghost snipe.
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On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily
40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts
that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens
okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it
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Personally the trouble for me is when I mass enough ravens and vikings to overwhelm the zerg's BL infestor corruptor army, they tech switch to ultra ling baneling infestor really quickly before I can clear supply to get marauders and tanks back. Usually by the time I can beat this second round of units, the zerg secures 1 or 2 more bases over me and the same thing happens again, eg build up BL infestor corruptor.
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If i remember right queen had the range of 3, right? so why not make it range 4 instead of 5. Also maybe remove the +25 energy buff from Infestor and make them spawn with 50mana and make an upgrade required for fungal. Maybe it fucks up every other match up who knows... you can never have perfect balance :/
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On December 24 2012 10:11 wptlzkwjd wrote:
Personally the trouble for me is when I mass enough ravens and vikings to overwhelm the zerg's BL infestor corruptor army, they tech switch to ultra ling baneling infestor really quickly before I can clear supply to get marauders and tanks back. Usually by the time I can beat this second round of units, the zerg secures 1 or 2 more bases over me and the same thing happens again, eg build up BL infestor corruptor.
jsut take the ravens and start picking off bases and tech structures
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There are issues all over this game, many mistakes were made in both race design and balance philosophy. They have balanced the game around overall win rates, which has left us with drastic disparities in early/mid/late game win rates. The people making decisions about starcraft 2 have been very stubborn and reluctant to admit their mistakes and rectify them.
Many of these problems were pointed out very early in Sc2's life. As early as Beta people pointed out the flaws of putting force field in the game, and years later we see it abused to no end, in immortal sentry all ins. Without Force fields protoss would be crippled because they cannot control engagements and are not cost effective without them. Protoss units being slow, having no way to retreat, and also having really poor dps for cost in the case of the stalker (which has less dps than 1 unstimmed marine but costs much more) Warp gates are also to blame here, they are the core production mechanic of protoss and they've been nerfed many times (rightfully so). They completely remove defenders advantage in many cases and make for very powerful all in timings. With FF's and Warp being protoss early and mid game backbone, it's almost impossible to balance them in terms of being able to be out on the map, yet not 1 dimensional and overpowered for timing attacks. The issues with warp gate being in the game were pointed out as early as beta also. Protoss would be better if FF's didn't exist, or were killable, and warp only worked with prisms. But if you did this, you'd have to start from scratch balancing protoss in the early and mid game.
Terran had a very strong early and mid game, and it is still not bad. But medevacs, and reapers ability to negate terrain and medevacs ability to create a snowball effect in engagements meant constant nerfs to terran early game. (by snowball effect I mean that once you engage an MMM army and they kill enough of your dps there is no coming back, because of the constant stimming and healing) This is a big reason why Force fields had to stay in the game, protoss would not be able to handle simple barracks aggression without being able to simply deny or delay a fight using FF. Also, the amount of options terran had for strong harass (drops, hellions, banshees) and the fact that almost any terran unit can be rushed brought on many nerfs. (Remeber thor/repair rushes?) While terran is able to stand it's ground in the early and mid game, the terran late game sucks. In part because the units can all be rushed so they had to be weak enough for other races to manage them coming out in the early/mid game, also because terran can't safely get to a nice late game army. The production mechanics of terran make it very hard to transition, also the ability of protoss and zerg to negate terrain with things like blink/prism/muta/nydus, or to break bunkers with things like FF's/immortals/colossus/banlings means that terran cannot rely on having a nice wall with a bunker or two and a tank or 2 and expect to hold aggression. Because the wall can either be broken (FF,baneling,immortals, roaches) or bypassed all together. The many ways the terrain is negated and defenders advantage is barely present is another thing that has been brought up countless times from beta until now.
With zerg the issue is simply how the race works. Zerg being unhampered early, means they get to late game while terran or protoss are still in their midgame compositions. Zergs that lose drones early, die in the mid game, because they get to hive too late. Zergs ability to all in, but not really be all in, with banling busts or tech switches, means the other races can't safely play as greedy as zerg. What we've seen is a bunch of nerfs to things which can punish greedy zerg play, (blink,stim,hellions, even zealots) and buffs to zergs early game (roach range, queens, root time) Zerg has always relied on their hive tech to win games, so in order to balance zerg win rates they have been given an easier and easier time getting to late game, instead of fixing the actual problems with early/mid game balance. The way to go IMO is to nerf inject, nerf broodlords, and then buff zergs mid game until mid/late game are both balanced.
Now we have hots, protoss's are getting the moma core, that to me is just a huge bandaid hero unit, to fix the protoss early game. (protoss's lack of scouting in early game, and it's difficulty in putting on pressure without being completely all in.( when I say all in I mean to do significant damage with a timing attack or you are hopelessly behind) It would be a lot of work to actually rework the race and its mechanics, and apparently there is little interest in doing this. Terran is getting little in the way of a late game that matters, it is another issue I feel unaddressed in hots. Zerg is getting a bunch of new toys, and redundant counters to things, also more units that spit out free units (yet we still see the massive balance issue units like infested terrans, and broodlords. Why would you add another free unit producer when you haven't been able to balance the last two?)
In all of this we also tend to forget one other (if not the biggest) balance issue that Sc2 has had MAPS!
Remember the horrible, tiny, imbalanced maps we had for the first year of starcraft 2? Remember when every map provided tons of air space for enemies to hang around behind your main mineral line, the wide open naturals and undefendable 3rd bases that could never be taken early, remember the high ground overlooking the natural, remember the 12 second rush distances, and all the close spawns?
How many balance changes were necessary because of the maps? Why were these changes not revisited once we started using better maps? Can we put tanks back to 65 base damage because we don't spawn with naturals that are almost in tank range of each other? Can we return reaper speed to it's previous state of no factory needed? Can we return the gateway unit production back to it's pre nerf speeds?
Here are some other ideas, what if protoss had shield batteries and FF's had health? What if vikings were good on the ground (like they were pre nerf) What if vikings could be produced from a factory? What if overlords could detect? What if hydras shared the roach upgrades (regen and burrow move) ?
What really drives me nuts is that instead of trying simple things like revisiting an outdated nerf, they are try to be overly creative. They are trying to force in units that really don't have a place. We see this with the many oracle changes, overseer changes, protoss air changes, terran factory changes. There is an apparent biased against saying that something in broodwar was awesome, and has a place in sc2. Remember arbiters, spidermines, vultures, goliaths, lurkers? Remember how zergs air morphing went muta into devourer or guardian (instead of muta can't morph and zergs flying anti air unit can morph into the best siege unit in the game, the broodlord)
I believe terran can have mech or bio viable in every matchup, I believe protoss can do something other than turtle and all in, I believe all the matchups could play better and be balanced throughout the early/mid/late game. But none of this will happen if the designers and people balancing Sc2 and it's expansions remove all the things they have holding them back. They need to start ignoring overall win rates and look at winrates during each game phase. The need to be willing to bring back a broodwar unit if it is needed and it works, they need to be willing to undo previous changes and do very small slight changes instead of drastic ones. Also, THEY NEED TO BALANCE THE GAME ON BETTER MAPS They are making the same mistakes they made with WOL, they are doing testing and making balance decisions on terrible maps that no one wants to use, and will be shelved as soon as better ones are made.
Blizzard really needs to get some of the brilliant freelance map makers out there helping them out with maps. I'd bet if they just had a monthly map contest, where they posted all the maps submitted, then made an independent ladder with the highest voted 8 maps, or had a pro tourney on the highest voted maps. Then had a vote at the end of the tourney and kept the highest voted 1 or 2 maps left at the end and put them on the regular ladder (giving the mapmakers credit and a special map creator title or icon would be cool) they could have a huge pool of great maps to draw from.
TLDR;
This post isn't really stating anything new. I am just restating some of the many things that have been being discussed as far back as WOL BETA. There has been too much reluctance to recycle the best units from BW that would be awesome additions to SC2 and there is too much reluctance to revisit balance changes that were made because of the terrible maps used at the time of the change. This mistake is being repeated with the bad HOTS map pool.
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On December 24 2012 10:19 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:11 wptlzkwjd wrote:
Personally the trouble for me is when I mass enough ravens and vikings to overwhelm the zerg's BL infestor corruptor army, they tech switch to ultra ling baneling infestor really quickly before I can clear supply to get marauders and tanks back. Usually by the time I can beat this second round of units, the zerg secures 1 or 2 more bases over me and the same thing happens again, eg build up BL infestor corruptor. jsut take the ravens and start picking off bases and tech structures
killing tech structures doesnt mean shit if you die to his ultralisks and if your ravens then have no energy to deal with the third remax.
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Puma vs Soulkey was painful to watch ><. Anyone remember Hero vs Leenock as well? There no quick solution here, Blizz just did a terrible job designing, got way to cute with gimmicks and ignored sound RTS design.
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On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it
Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close.
There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion.
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On December 24 2012 10:32 xPabt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:19 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:11 wptlzkwjd wrote:
Personally the trouble for me is when I mass enough ravens and vikings to overwhelm the zerg's BL infestor corruptor army, they tech switch to ultra ling baneling infestor really quickly before I can clear supply to get marauders and tanks back. Usually by the time I can beat this second round of units, the zerg secures 1 or 2 more bases over me and the same thing happens again, eg build up BL infestor corruptor. jsut take the ravens and start picking off bases and tech structures killing tech structures doesnt mean shit if you die to his ultralisks and if your ravens then have no energy to deal with the third remax.
if you drop auto turrets in his mineral lines he has to come back with the ultras to deal with it mass raven is ridiculously strong you jsut need to know how to play it, remember the Zerg cant go for the base race he has to deal with the ravens before he can push out
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On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion.
there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine
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On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Furthermore more than over a year of BL/infestors being almost impossible to beat for both P&T. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make.
On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race.
He was being objective. There was an incredibly low sample size of games to argue whether it was broken. It should have been given time. Same thing happened to everything Terran. Blue flame hellions were nerfed after one tournament weekend. That's not any sample size of games that's meaningful, that's knee jerk balance patching. Serv is being objective.
Now, over 1 year of brood/infestor and Terran having no lategame answer, and now Protoss also showing to be in the same boat. There is not only a high volume of games here to get, there's tournament results, there's ladder data, the list goes on and this is worse than any 5 games of mass ghost has ever been. It was ridiculous to nerf ghosts that fast when at the time Terran basically had no lategame options except ghosts - which left them with basically nothing afterwards.
The ridiculousness goes the opposite direction too. Ghosts were nerfed way too soon yes, but infestors/Zerg way too late!
Where was the consistency, or this "objectivity" you speak of? Nerfing Terran after one tournament weekend of results? But waiting over 1 year for Zerg and the game coming to this point where it's starting to drive spectators away?
I'm just replying responding you attacking servyoa here. There was no bias. There were about ~5 broadcasted games of Terrans utilizing mass ghost in the lategame, and probably 2-3 of those were MVP.
Even 10 games is not enough to judge. Zergs were already discovering the answer to mass ghost lategame right before ghosts were nerfed, which was switching back into mass tier 1/2 units with roaches/ling/mass banes and overseers.
This never came to light because the nerf bat hit so quick.
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On December 24 2012 10:37 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Furthermore more than over a year of BL/infestors being almost impossible to beat for both P&T. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. He was being objective. There was an incredibly low sample size of games to argue whether it was broken. It should have been given time. Same thing happened to everything Terran. Blue flame hellions were nerfed after one tournament weekend. That's not any sample size of games that's meaningful, that's knee jerk balance patching. Serv is being objective. Now, over 1 year of brood/infestor and Terran having no lategame answer, and now Protoss also showing to be in the same boat. There is not only a high volume of games here to get, there's tournament results, there's ladder data, the list goes on and this is worse than any 5 games of mass ghost has ever been. Where was the consistency, or this "objectivity" you speak of? Nerfing Terran after one tournament weekend of results? But waiting over 1 year for Zerg and the game coming to this point where it's starting to drive spectators away? I'm just replying responding you attacking servyoa here. There was no bias. There were about ~5 broadcasted games of Terrans utilizing mass ghost in the lategame, and probably 2-3 of those were MVP. Even 10 games is not enough to judge. Zergs were already discovering the answer to mass ghost lategame right before ghosts were nerfed, which was switching back into mass tier 1/2 units with roaches/ling/mass banes and overseers. This never came to light because the nerf bat hit so quick.
i dont even understand how you can possibly think your logic is at all right
if Zerg found a strat that was literally unstoppable wouldnt you wanted it nerfed immediately?
it was literally impossible to win a late game TvZ if the T was at all competant it was impossible to engage the ghosts you couldnt micro away from snipe you couldnt dodge it, you couldnt even bait it since snipe does all its damage up front
there was no answer to mass ghost
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On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:32 xPabt wrote:On December 24 2012 10:19 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:11 wptlzkwjd wrote:
Personally the trouble for me is when I mass enough ravens and vikings to overwhelm the zerg's BL infestor corruptor army, they tech switch to ultra ling baneling infestor really quickly before I can clear supply to get marauders and tanks back. Usually by the time I can beat this second round of units, the zerg secures 1 or 2 more bases over me and the same thing happens again, eg build up BL infestor corruptor. jsut take the ravens and start picking off bases and tech structures killing tech structures doesnt mean shit if you die to his ultralisks and if your ravens then have no energy to deal with the third remax. if you drop auto turrets in his mineral lines he has to come back with the ultras to deal with it mass raven is ridiculously strong you jsut need to know how to play it, remember the Zerg cant go for the base race he has to deal with the ravens before he can push out
Thanks for the advice. However, all the zergs I have faced against usually have around 5-8 spine crawlers at each base including the main not to mention a queen as well so landing my vikings and actively using my ravens are usually a good way to suicide/drop supply. Which is fine but I can't rebuild my army to defend against the ultralisks as fast as zerg can =/
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On December 24 2012 10:40 wptlzkwjd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:32 xPabt wrote:On December 24 2012 10:19 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:11 wptlzkwjd wrote:
Personally the trouble for me is when I mass enough ravens and vikings to overwhelm the zerg's BL infestor corruptor army, they tech switch to ultra ling baneling infestor really quickly before I can clear supply to get marauders and tanks back. Usually by the time I can beat this second round of units, the zerg secures 1 or 2 more bases over me and the same thing happens again, eg build up BL infestor corruptor. jsut take the ravens and start picking off bases and tech structures killing tech structures doesnt mean shit if you die to his ultralisks and if your ravens then have no energy to deal with the third remax. if you drop auto turrets in his mineral lines he has to come back with the ultras to deal with it mass raven is ridiculously strong you jsut need to know how to play it, remember the Zerg cant go for the base race he has to deal with the ravens before he can push out Thanks for the advice. However, all the zergs I have faced against usually have around 5-8 spine crawlers at each base including the main not to mention a queen as well so landing my vikings and actively using my ravens are usually a good way to suicide/drop supply. Which is fine but I can't rebuild my army to defend against the ultralisks as fast as zerg can =/
nonononnononon you never land the vikings you jsut drop some autoturrets unless they have a literal ring of spinecrawlers around every building theres some deadzone where you can put auto turrets that can hit a hatch/reater spire/workers and they have to respond to it
just run in, drop 10 turrets and run out no risk extremely high reward
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Blizzard needs to revert the ghost changes, both the emp and snipe nerfs. Blizzard should have left the metagame to develop before nerfing them. How many pro games involved mass ghosts at that point? I can only remember three games, and they all had MVP (MVP vs july, MVP vs Nestea, MVP vs Nerchio? MVP lost this one too). So nerfing a unit just upon the results of three games is completely REASONABLE! /sarcasm.
Besides ghost snipe is only single target damage that happens to be incredibly APM heavy as well. If Blizzard doesnt have a problem with 2-3 fungals destroying 30 marines or 15 vikings, why do they have a problem with a spell that doesnt even do AOE damage? Also do people realize how fragile ghosts are? One fungal or a few baneling detonations and your entire group of ghosts are dead.
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On December 24 2012 10:40 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:37 avilo wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Furthermore more than over a year of BL/infestors being almost impossible to beat for both P&T. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. He was being objective. There was an incredibly low sample size of games to argue whether it was broken. It should have been given time. Same thing happened to everything Terran. Blue flame hellions were nerfed after one tournament weekend. That's not any sample size of games that's meaningful, that's knee jerk balance patching. Serv is being objective. Now, over 1 year of brood/infestor and Terran having no lategame answer, and now Protoss also showing to be in the same boat. There is not only a high volume of games here to get, there's tournament results, there's ladder data, the list goes on and this is worse than any 5 games of mass ghost has ever been. Where was the consistency, or this "objectivity" you speak of? Nerfing Terran after one tournament weekend of results? But waiting over 1 year for Zerg and the game coming to this point where it's starting to drive spectators away? I'm just replying responding you attacking servyoa here. There was no bias. There were about ~5 broadcasted games of Terrans utilizing mass ghost in the lategame, and probably 2-3 of those were MVP. Even 10 games is not enough to judge. Zergs were already discovering the answer to mass ghost lategame right before ghosts were nerfed, which was switching back into mass tier 1/2 units with roaches/ling/mass banes and overseers. This never came to light because the nerf bat hit so quick. i dont even understand how you can possibly think your logic is at all right if Zerg found a strat that was literally unstoppable wouldnt you wanted it nerfed immediately? it was literally impossible to win a late game TvZ if the T was at all competant it was impossible to engage the ghosts you couldnt micro away from snipe you couldnt dodge it, you couldnt even bait it since snipe does all its damage up front there was no answer to mass ghost
Read my post, instead of trying to pretend something was unstoppable when it was not and there was no volume of games to even say anything near that.
I remember ghosts in lategame quite well, I've used quite a few nukes in my time.
At the time Terrans were being urged by literally everyone, including ZERGS, to utilize ghosts in the lategame to counter broodlords/ultras and tech switches. One of the biggest proponents of this was IDRA.
Terrans started to do it and the next thing you know, after less than 10 total broadcasted games of this NEW LATEGAME the ghost was nerfed. It was not unstoppable. You are just trying to SHOUT here.
Zergs were finding answers to it, I remember playing/watching quite a few games and replays where Zergs were starting to down-tech purposely back into mass ling/baneling to deal with the "mass ghosts" which worked really well because there were way too many targets to snipe. This in conjunction with fungal among other things was turning out to be quite the counter.
None of this came to light because instead of "wait and see" blizzard immediately nerfed it after watching only MVP do it 2 times. (along with Zergs whining on the forums, which is the opposite of today. The difference? Terrans right now are whining after over an entire year of obvious balance issues, Zergs were whining after 1 week of possible issues).
So no, you're basically just wrong. Don't even bother posting if you're going to just try and SHOUT that it was "UNSTOPPABLE1!!!1!" You have no clue what you're talking about.
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On December 24 2012 10:42 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:40 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:32 xPabt wrote:On December 24 2012 10:19 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:11 wptlzkwjd wrote:
Personally the trouble for me is when I mass enough ravens and vikings to overwhelm the zerg's BL infestor corruptor army, they tech switch to ultra ling baneling infestor really quickly before I can clear supply to get marauders and tanks back. Usually by the time I can beat this second round of units, the zerg secures 1 or 2 more bases over me and the same thing happens again, eg build up BL infestor corruptor. jsut take the ravens and start picking off bases and tech structures killing tech structures doesnt mean shit if you die to his ultralisks and if your ravens then have no energy to deal with the third remax. if you drop auto turrets in his mineral lines he has to come back with the ultras to deal with it mass raven is ridiculously strong you jsut need to know how to play it, remember the Zerg cant go for the base race he has to deal with the ravens before he can push out Thanks for the advice. However, all the zergs I have faced against usually have around 5-8 spine crawlers at each base including the main not to mention a queen as well so landing my vikings and actively using my ravens are usually a good way to suicide/drop supply. Which is fine but I can't rebuild my army to defend against the ultralisks as fast as zerg can =/ nonononnononon you never land the vikings you jsut drop some autoturrets unless they have a literal ring of spinecrawlers around every building theres some deadzone where you can put auto turrets that can hit a hatch/reater spire/workers and they have to respond to it just run in, drop 10 turrets and run out no risk extremely high reward
Is this a joke post? Dropping auto turrets in enemies base is extremely high risk, low reward. Auto turrets do absolutely garbage damage and gets destroyed by just about any zerg unit. In late game, it takes 2-3 zerglings to kill an auto turret. Hows that for 50 energy spent? Besides sending Ravens into enemy base is a one way trip. One fungal and none of them will make it out alive.
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Terrans started to do it and the next thing you know, after less than 10 total broadcasted games of this NEW LATEGAME the ghost was nerfed. It was not unstoppable. You are just trying to SHOUT here.
I remember playing/watching quite a few games and replays where Zergs were starting to down-tech purposely back into mass ling/baneling to deal with the "mass ghosts" which worked really well because there were way too many targets to snipe.
wait there were less then 10 games where mass ghost was used but there was quite a few games were Zerg downteched?
i smell a contradiction
plus downteching doesnt work because they jsut stutterstep the lings and theres nothing you can do
Is this a joke post? Dropping auto turrets in enemies base is extremely high risk, low reward. Auto turrets do absolutely garbage damage and gets destroyed by just about any zerg unit. In late game, it takes 2-3 zerglings to kill an auto turret. Hows that for 50 energy spent? Besides sending Ravens into enemy base is a one way trip. One fungal and none of them will make it out alive.
im getting so sick of people who dont know about army compositions talking about them like there experts
10 auto turrets will kill a base very easily and are very hard to kill mass raven ahs been extremely strong for a very long time
ravens are much faster and much more mobile then infesters, if they get fungal your dumb, plus if infesters are near jsut HSM them and laugh
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On December 24 2012 10:58 Forikorder wrote:
ravens are much faster and much more mobile then infesters, if they get fungal your dumb, plus if infesters are near jsut HSM them and laugh
You realize that everything about this sentence is untrue, right?
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On December 24 2012 10:58 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +Terrans started to do it and the next thing you know, after less than 10 total broadcasted games of this NEW LATEGAME the ghost was nerfed. It was not unstoppable. You are just trying to SHOUT here. Show nested quote +I remember playing/watching quite a few games and replays where Zergs were starting to down-tech purposely back into mass ling/baneling to deal with the "mass ghosts" which worked really well because there were way too many targets to snipe. wait there were less then 10 games where mass ghost was used but there was quite a few games were Zerg downteched? i smell a contradiction plus downteching doesnt work because they jsut stutterstep the lings and theres nothing you can do Show nested quote +Is this a joke post? Dropping auto turrets in enemies base is extremely high risk, low reward. Auto turrets do absolutely garbage damage and gets destroyed by just about any zerg unit. In late game, it takes 2-3 zerglings to kill an auto turret. Hows that for 50 energy spent? Besides sending Ravens into enemy base is a one way trip. One fungal and none of them will make it out alive.
im getting so sick of people who dont know about army compositions talking about them like there experts 10 auto turrets will kill a base very easily and are very hard to kill mass raven ahs been extremely strong for a very long time ravens are much faster and much more mobile then infesters, if they get fungal your dumb, plus if infesters are near jsut HSM them and laugh
No self respecting zerg will let auto turrets kill a base :/
Also, the unforgiving nature of fungal growth is one of the main issues being discussed is it not? Ravens are not exactly a mobile unit by the way.
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On December 24 2012 10:42 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:40 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:32 xPabt wrote:On December 24 2012 10:19 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:11 wptlzkwjd wrote:
Personally the trouble for me is when I mass enough ravens and vikings to overwhelm the zerg's BL infestor corruptor army, they tech switch to ultra ling baneling infestor really quickly before I can clear supply to get marauders and tanks back. Usually by the time I can beat this second round of units, the zerg secures 1 or 2 more bases over me and the same thing happens again, eg build up BL infestor corruptor. jsut take the ravens and start picking off bases and tech structures killing tech structures doesnt mean shit if you die to his ultralisks and if your ravens then have no energy to deal with the third remax. if you drop auto turrets in his mineral lines he has to come back with the ultras to deal with it mass raven is ridiculously strong you jsut need to know how to play it, remember the Zerg cant go for the base race he has to deal with the ravens before he can push out Thanks for the advice. However, all the zergs I have faced against usually have around 5-8 spine crawlers at each base including the main not to mention a queen as well so landing my vikings and actively using my ravens are usually a good way to suicide/drop supply. Which is fine but I can't rebuild my army to defend against the ultralisks as fast as zerg can =/ nonononnononon you never land the vikings you jsut drop some autoturrets unless they have a literal ring of spinecrawlers around every building theres some deadzone where you can put auto turrets that can hit a hatch/reater spire/workers and they have to respond to it just run in, drop 10 turrets and run out no risk extremely high reward
in silver maybe. wasting 500 ernergy which couldve been hsm? risking to lose the ravens? wtf?
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On December 24 2012 11:03 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:58 Forikorder wrote:
ravens are much faster and much more mobile then infesters, if they get fungal your dumb, plus if infesters are near jsut HSM them and laugh You realize that everything about this sentence is untrue, right?
so your saying ravens move at 2.0 speed, have a crappy accelaration and are a ground unit?
No self respecting zerg will let auto turrets kill a base :/
Also, the unforgiving nature of fungal growth is one of the main issues being discussed is it not? Ravens are not exactly a mobile unit by the way.
exactly, while hes running around trying to deal with the turrets you are completely safe
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On December 24 2012 10:46 avilo wrote:
Zergs were finding answers to it, I remember playing/watching quite a few games and replays where Zergs were starting to down-tech purposely back into mass ling/baneling to deal with the "mass ghosts" which worked really well because there were way too many targets to snipe. This in conjunction with fungal among other things was turning out to be quite the counter.
This is exactly right, and I felt it added another dynamic to the late game ZvT in terms of identifying tech transitions and the appropriate composition for a re-max. I think the ghosts were still too strong vs BL and perhaps the best solution would have been that which was proposed by qxc: Simply nerfing the damage to specific classes of units (ie massive). Ghosts were a really interesting unit in TvT because they could 1 shot marines, and the previously stronger snipe allowed Terrans to take chunks out of the late game zealot count in TvP (which was something blizzard noted as a problem for Terran). When reflecting on blizzard's handling of the ghost situation, in addition to things like BFH and Thors (after the Thorzain TSL build), I can understand why many Terran and Protoss players are upset at the time being taken to address the perceived issues with the Zerg race: Overall I am happier that they are taking a more tentative approach to patching things but perhaps this could be complimented by some revision of previous changes, acquiring more feedback from pros, and a higher degree of transparency in regards to their current perception of the meta game and what is or is not giving certain races advantages.
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On December 24 2012 11:06 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:03 forsooth wrote:On December 24 2012 10:58 Forikorder wrote:
ravens are much faster and much more mobile then infesters, if they get fungal your dumb, plus if infesters are near jsut HSM them and laugh You realize that everything about this sentence is untrue, right? so your saying ravens move at 2.0 speed, have a crappy accelaration and are a ground unit?
Infestors OFF CREEP 2.25
Infestor On Creep 2.9
Raven 2.25
are you trying to be wrong?
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On December 24 2012 11:11 xPabt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:06 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:03 forsooth wrote:On December 24 2012 10:58 Forikorder wrote:
ravens are much faster and much more mobile then infesters, if they get fungal your dumb, plus if infesters are near jsut HSM them and laugh You realize that everything about this sentence is untrue, right? so your saying ravens move at 2.0 speed, have a crappy accelaration and are a ground unit? Infestors OFF CREEP 2.25 Infestor On Creep 2.9 Raven 2.25 are you trying to be wrong?
ravens fly that makes them 10 times more mobile by the time you know where the ravens are the auto-turrets are down and there retreating so unless your flying above creep they'll never get caught
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On December 24 2012 10:58 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +Terrans started to do it and the next thing you know, after less than 10 total broadcasted games of this NEW LATEGAME the ghost was nerfed. It was not unstoppable. You are just trying to SHOUT here. Show nested quote +I remember playing/watching quite a few games and replays where Zergs were starting to down-tech purposely back into mass ling/baneling to deal with the "mass ghosts" which worked really well because there were way too many targets to snipe. wait there were less then 10 games where mass ghost was used but there was quite a few games were Zerg downteched? i smell a contradiction plus downteching doesnt work because they jsut stutterstep the lings and theres nothing you can do Show nested quote +Is this a joke post? Dropping auto turrets in enemies base is extremely high risk, low reward. Auto turrets do absolutely garbage damage and gets destroyed by just about any zerg unit. In late game, it takes 2-3 zerglings to kill an auto turret. Hows that for 50 energy spent? Besides sending Ravens into enemy base is a one way trip. One fungal and none of them will make it out alive.
im getting so sick of people who dont know about army compositions talking about them like there experts 10 auto turrets will kill a base very easily and are very hard to kill mass raven ahs been extremely strong for a very long time ravens are much faster and much more mobile then infesters, if they get fungal your dumb, plus if infesters are near jsut HSM them and laugh
What league are you...
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All of that is to say that timing attacks for Terran were (and are) no longer reliably effective versus Zerg. TvZ is presently the only matchup where timing attacks do not work. When a Zerg plays beyond economic greed (such as using all of the queens for creep tumors rather than saving the energy to transfuse), they become vulnerable again. However, this is a rarity in practice .
OP, this is not correct and sounds really biased. After opening 3OC from Hellion Banshee, there is a marine tank timing attack with 2/2 at around 14:00. There is also another on 2 base with lighter upgrades which hits before zerg +1+1 evo upgrades kicks in.
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On December 24 2012 11:18 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:11 xPabt wrote:On December 24 2012 11:06 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:03 forsooth wrote:On December 24 2012 10:58 Forikorder wrote:
ravens are much faster and much more mobile then infesters, if they get fungal your dumb, plus if infesters are near jsut HSM them and laugh You realize that everything about this sentence is untrue, right? so your saying ravens move at 2.0 speed, have a crappy accelaration and are a ground unit? Infestors OFF CREEP 2.25 Infestor On Creep 2.9 Raven 2.25 are you trying to be wrong? ravens fly that makes them 10 times more mobile by the time you know where the ravens are the auto-turrets are down and there retreating so unless your flying above creep they'll never get caught
I'm getting really tired of your trolling. Drop 10 turrets in their base? Just go back on ladder and enjoy this bullshit while it lasts.
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On December 24 2012 11:19 Discarder wrote:Show nested quote +All of that is to say that timing attacks for Terran were (and are) no longer reliably effective versus Zerg. TvZ is presently the only matchup where timing attacks do not work. When a Zerg plays beyond economic greed (such as using all of the queens for creep tumors rather than saving the energy to transfuse), they become vulnerable again. However, this is a rarity in practice . OP, this is not correct and sounds really biased. After opening 3OC from Hellion Banshee, there is a marine tank timing attack with 2/2 at around 14:00. There is also another on 2 base with lighter upgrades which hits before zerg +1+1 evo upgrades kicks in.
The 14 minutes "timing attack" might as well be called an all in. It is designed for one reason and one reason only, to win the game before winfestor/brood combo comes out. If you move too slowly, or do not outright win the game, it is almost always GG. If you call this a "timing attack" you are leaving out that it is more of an all in. This is why you see so many terrans doing what used to be considered crazy, and walking across creep. Because if we don't get there in time.......
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On December 24 2012 10:42 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:40 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:32 xPabt wrote:On December 24 2012 10:19 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:11 wptlzkwjd wrote:
Personally the trouble for me is when I mass enough ravens and vikings to overwhelm the zerg's BL infestor corruptor army, they tech switch to ultra ling baneling infestor really quickly before I can clear supply to get marauders and tanks back. Usually by the time I can beat this second round of units, the zerg secures 1 or 2 more bases over me and the same thing happens again, eg build up BL infestor corruptor. jsut take the ravens and start picking off bases and tech structures killing tech structures doesnt mean shit if you die to his ultralisks and if your ravens then have no energy to deal with the third remax. if you drop auto turrets in his mineral lines he has to come back with the ultras to deal with it mass raven is ridiculously strong you jsut need to know how to play it, remember the Zerg cant go for the base race he has to deal with the ravens before he can push out Thanks for the advice. However, all the zergs I have faced against usually have around 5-8 spine crawlers at each base including the main not to mention a queen as well so landing my vikings and actively using my ravens are usually a good way to suicide/drop supply. Which is fine but I can't rebuild my army to defend against the ultralisks as fast as zerg can =/ nonononnononon you never land the vikings you jsut drop some autoturrets unless they have a literal ring of spinecrawlers around every building theres some deadzone where you can put auto turrets that can hit a hatch/reater spire/workers and they have to respond to it just run in, drop 10 turrets and run out no risk extremely high reward
5-8 spine crawlers is pretty much a ring. There isn't enough energy left over from the ravens to make so many autoturrets after I clean out their BL corruptor army. Also, there isn't enough space around the zerg hatchery to even plant autoturrets =/
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I dont understand why people are so much trying to defend the zerg all the time? All the results lately, all the win %: lately, all the price money giving lately etc. are showing that something needs to be done over here!
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On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine
Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways.
There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it
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Heres the real question, how long does blizzard think a game should last?
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On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited
with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard
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[/QUOTE]
ravens fly that makes them 10 times more mobile by the time you know where the ravens are the auto-turrets are down and there retreating so unless your flying above creep they'll never get caught[/QUOTE]
What did i just read ? are you really playing tvz ?
LoL ... Raven is not the answer, and if it realyl is, T should probably find it out
Fungal range is 8 (now) vs seeker missile 3 range ..
Plz do the math, i enjoy reading arguments but this one is totaly nonsense
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It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes?
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On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:On December 24 2012 08:34 4Servy wrote:
5 games of mass ghost winning where you might argue that its broken, versus over half a year of 30 infestors killing everything. Sounds like a comparrison that only people on TL can make. Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard
If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane.
We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard.
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On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 08:38 Picklebread wrote:
[quote]
Can you guys please stop doing the bad whining? Im terran your making us look so goddamn bad when you guys post posts like this. There was a good 2-3 weeks to a month where it was dominant. Ghost countered Tier 3 zerg completely theres literally nothing they could do and there was a good sample size. Everyone masters was doing it on the ladder to great success and won games lategame vs zerg that they shouldnt have because they could snipe all the broodlords dead and emp all the infestors and completely dismantle the zerg army and the zerg couldnt do anything about it. And for the love of god please guys stop saying 5 games it was 100's jesus christ. People like you posting this 5 games stuff just shows how biased you are. You have to be objective with balance otherwise its always just gonna be stupidly biased for a race. The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now. What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing. 10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used? And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard.
ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly
It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes?
were talking pre-snipe nerf
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On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:14 barwick11 wrote:
[quote]
The snipe nerf is a giant part of the reason things are broken right now.
What answer does bio Terran have vs Zerg T3? Specifically BL/Corruptor/Ling? Exactly nothing.
10 ghosts (at the time) could do some serious damage... but so can 10 infestors (I mean, full energy infestors? You know how many IT's that is even if fungal wasn't used?
And seriously, since Terran had a counter that everyone started using, Zerg couldn't respond by making wave after wave after wave of inexpensive nearly-un-snipeable units when they saw ghosts being made? That's like us complaining that BL's can't be killed because we didn't scout the corruptors, the greater spire, or the batch of behemoths flying across the map looking like a flock of flying whales, before we started to make vikings out of starports. ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly Show nested quote +It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf
How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all.
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On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes
Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all.
were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines
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On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:
[quote]
Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines
20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army.
Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army.
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On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts
that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens
okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army.
120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns
if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition?
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On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 09:48 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 09:16 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
ya ok you try to beat a terran in late game without using T3 see how well that goes
Ghosts are as good agaisnt our T1 and T2 as they are against our T3 they dont caare if there bloqing up ultras roachs or bane Realistically ghosts aren't going to be able to kill a mass ling army-there's only going to be like 20-30 ghosts max and 100+lings should deal with them really easily 40-60 supply of ghosts, lets say 50 SCVs, its alte game so lots of mules so about 110 supply of ghosts that means 90 marines, it would take like 300 lings to kill 90 mariens okay people if you dont know how good ghosts were pre-snipe nerf dont talk about it Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close. There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all.
Yeah, and that was actually the problem. You are talking about Marine+Ghost, which makes it sound balanced, because then the only unit that was able to combat mass ghosts - the baneling - can be deployed.
The thing is, the "counter all" was like 5-10 tanks and then just produce ghosts until you win. Nothing could beat that army, as tanks counter banelings and ghosts counter anything else zerg supply for supply extremly well.
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Tanks do "well" against banelings. At some point, however, the supply efficiency of banelings can crush any amount of Terran positioning. At that point, it's about the remax for both. I feel that Zerg can win with the remax, assuming the engagement point was picked correctly.
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On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:
[quote]
Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close.
There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition?
Please post a replay of you sniping banelings while splitting marines.
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On December 24 2012 12:24 aksfjh wrote:
Tanks do "well" against banelings. At some point, however, the supply efficiency of banelings can crush any amount of Terran positioning. At that point, it's about the remax for both. I feel that Zerg can win with the remax, assuming the engagement point was picked correctly. your right a large enough force of banelings could overwhelm any terran spot
but since we can only have a max of 400 banelings at a time its not conceivable
in the late game lings and banes become next to useless thats why we transition to ultras and broods
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Please post a replay of you sniping banelings while splitting marines.
Even the top Korean Terrans are not capable of this claim.
This would take a ridiculous amount of apm not humanly possible at the scale described.
Maybe if it was like 5 ghosts 20 marines vrs 10 banes 30 slings. Even then the slings would win.
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arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes???
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agree with you in timing, zerg can beat terran easily in mid game. Ling bane roach all in but terran don't have timing to punish zerg in mid game because Six queen can def everything.
PR.sorry my english is so bad
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On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes???
MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third
but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen
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Whatabout of nerfing friendlyfire or siegetank? Would be huge buff for only tvz (TvT there are not so many melee fights + tvp I dont see it as a problem)
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I feel like the problem that needs to be addressed is not all this timing attack bullshit but the queen its self. It is the best unit the Zerg has. This isn't the Zergs fault but they need a way to deal with early banshee, hellions, void rays, etc. Zerg has REALLY bad anti air options before lair tech except for the queen. Because the queen has to do so many things it has been buffed to be able to do these things, well. It does early anti-air, closes the natural choke, injects, transfuses, defends early aggression and a mass of 6 of them can transfuse each other with good micro you are heavily rewarded. They do too much. I feel like the queen needs a dps nerf and Hydras need to be available at a sooner tech path to fill the Queens dps role. Maybe nerf the damage on fungal. This would allow queens to sit in front and tank damage while infusing each other behind hydras. Zerg would have to micro hydras and queens at same time and would be more fair.
So to recap:
Nerf Queen dps, make it a tanky unit.
Make Hydras available sooner.
Nerf Fungal damage.
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On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:
[quote]
Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close.
There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition?
When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings.
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On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings.
the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times?
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On December 24 2012 12:55 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes??? MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen
MVP stopped using that build himself because it is a gimick... zergs just make a wall at natural with 2 evo + spine + 2 queen, and 7-8 roach to hold the third, gg u win.
that build is a gimick and only works if u dont know the defense.
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On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 10:35 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 10:34 PaperPrinter wrote:
[quote]
Cost for cost, Ling/bane actually completely decimates ghosts/marines (50/50 ratio which is realistic if the T relies on ghosts to counter zerg tier 3), even if there is an amazing split it wont even be close.
There were Zergs before the ghost snipe that figured out that a tech switch back to ling/bane was the answer but Blizz still nerfed them into oblivion. there are no banes, thats what snipe is for just snipe the banes then all thats left is ling VS marine Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways. There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts
Wait, what? No way in hell with 120 lings and 80 banes lose to 90 marines, there is a unit tester man, go use it. And adding 20 ghosts, they still lose big time.
It's quite obvious you haven't tested any of this stuff so just stop.
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On December 24 2012 13:05 EclipseT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 12:55 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes??? MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen MVP stopped using that build himself because it is a gimick... zergs just make a wall at natural with 2 evo + spine + 2 queen, and 7-8 roach to hold the third, gg u win. that build is a gimick and only works if u dont know the defense.
you dont have to go as all-in as he did with it and still get enough drones to make it worth it
Terrans used to use hellions well, they denied creep and delayed bases now they jsut run them to the zerg, pull a u turn when they see queens, park them at a watch tower and let them die to lings
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On December 24 2012 13:05 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:
[quote]
Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways.
There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it
edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings. the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times?
Most zergs now have learnt to pre split their banes before they engage so not all the banes will be clumped. Also you have about 2-3 seconds to click 40 times AND split your marines perfectly. Oh, you will only need about 1000 APM to do it.
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On December 24 2012 13:05 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:33 PaperPrinter wrote:
[quote]
Be realistic, you have about 2 seconds before the ghosts get in range to snipe before the banes can connect, nobody is going to be able to instakill, say 50 banes in the late game before they get in range. And if you snipe them when they're on top of the ghosts/marines then they explode anyways.
There is no way a marine/ghost army should win vs a ling/bane army. It is that cost effective vs it
edited with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings. the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times?
Have you tried? Shift queue with snipe isn't like infested terran spamming. Go try and post the replay.
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On December 24 2012 13:11 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:05 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 12:55 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes??? MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen MVP stopped using that build himself because it is a gimick... zergs just make a wall at natural with 2 evo + spine + 2 queen, and 7-8 roach to hold the third, gg u win. that build is a gimick and only works if u dont know the defense. you dont have to go as all-in as he did with it and still get enough drones to make it worth it Terrans used to use hellions well, they denied creep and delayed bases now they jsut run them to the zerg, pull a u turn when they see queens, park them at a watch tower and let them die to lings
lol, are you serious? Why do you think terrans STOP doing it if it is still so effective? Do they WANT the zerg to have good creep spread? All the zerg needs to do is to have 2 queens stand slightly in front of the tumor and the hellions won't do shit. The reason it works before was that the hellions could kite the queens.
Give marines 6 range and see if any protoss will put their stalkers out in the middle of the map in PvT early game.
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On December 24 2012 13:15 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:05 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:37 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
with good splits and decent snipes ghost/marine eats ling/bane the whole reason people started using infesters is because relying on banes to kill amrines became way too hard If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane. We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard. ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings. the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times? Most zergs now have learnt to pre split their banes before they engage so not all the banes will be clumped. Also you have about 2-3 seconds to click 40 times AND split your marines perfectly. Oh, you will only need about 1000 APM to do it.
if the banelings are pre-split then the marines are too so all you need to do is snipoe them down
lol, are you serious? Why do you think terrans STOP doing it if it is still so effective? Do they WANT the zerg to have good creep spread? All the zerg needs to do is to have 2 queens stand slightly in front of the tumor and the hellions won't do shit. The reason it works before was that the hellions could kite the queens.
Give marines 6 range and see if any protoss will put their stalkers out in the middle of the map in PvT early game.
the queens could always stand in front of the tumours and hit the hellions if they came in they took a bit of damage on the hellion to kill the tumours and stop the spread
terrans have jsut become too lazy to kill creep
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On December 24 2012 13:11 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:05 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 12:55 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes??? MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen MVP stopped using that build himself because it is a gimick... zergs just make a wall at natural with 2 evo + spine + 2 queen, and 7-8 roach to hold the third, gg u win. that build is a gimick and only works if u dont know the defense. you dont have to go as all-in as he did with it and still get enough drones to make it worth it Terrans used to use hellions well, they denied creep and delayed bases now they jsut run them to the zerg, pull a u turn when they see queens, park them at a watch tower and let them die to lings
??? not sure if u are joking man.
zerg go 4-6 queen now.. so main queen for main base, 1 for natural that hold wall in with 2 evo + spine, and 2-4 for spread creep, hellion cant combat creep tumor without dieing to a high queen count. it only work before cause they had low range.. thing that change was the patch that ruin it all.
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I tested it in a unit tester, and it comes down to how well the marine/ghost is split.
For reference:
80 marines, 10 medivacs, 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings and 80 banelings.
If the marine/ghost is reasonably pre-split, it only takes a few snipes on banes (hold R, spam click banes). If you're pre-split well, you barely have to even stim.
I didn't stutter step at all, and if marine/ghost was split out well then Zerg lost fairly one-sidedly. Snipes and stutter step would make it even better for the Terran.
Of course, this relies on splitting the marines really well which is kind of unreasonable. Alternatively, invest in a few tanks to snipe banes noobs 
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On December 24 2012 13:22 EclipseT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:11 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 12:55 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes??? MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen MVP stopped using that build himself because it is a gimick... zergs just make a wall at natural with 2 evo + spine + 2 queen, and 7-8 roach to hold the third, gg u win. that build is a gimick and only works if u dont know the defense. you dont have to go as all-in as he did with it and still get enough drones to make it worth it Terrans used to use hellions well, they denied creep and delayed bases now they jsut run them to the zerg, pull a u turn when they see queens, park them at a watch tower and let them die to lings ??? not sure if u are joking man. zerg go 4-6 queen now.. so main queen for main base, 1 for natural that hold wall in with 2 evo + spine, and 2-4 for spread creep, hellion cant combat creep tumor without dieing to a high queen count. it only work before cause they had low range.. thing that change was the patch that ruin it all.
the onyl difference is the hellions take a bit more damage so instead of being able to completely deny all creep spread for the first like 10 minutes of the game with just 4 hellions you can only slow it down but as long as you control well, and maybe bring an SCV (or jsut return to base for repairs) you could still drastically slow down creep
thats not the only trick either, one medivac with a few marines can fly around killing creep at no risk until infesters or mutas are out, one banshee and a raven can kill tons of creep, and if they go infester it takes tons of energy to take them out and with no HSM upgrade you can take a couple infesters with you
terran got lazy killing creep they only kill creep when they move out now
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On December 24 2012 13:20 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:15 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:41 PaperPrinter wrote:
[quote]
If you're talking about pure marines, then yes with amazing splits it will beat ling/bane.
We are discussing high ghost count late game + marines (so maybe a 50/50 ratio), in which case, the ling/bane is very cost effective vs it. Try the unit tester. kill a few banes to imitate the hold snipe and get a near perfect split, the ling/bane wins hard.
ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly It takes 2 snipes to kill a baneling..why would you even try to snipe mass banes? were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings. the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times? Most zergs now have learnt to pre split their banes before they engage so not all the banes will be clumped. Also you have about 2-3 seconds to click 40 times AND split your marines perfectly. Oh, you will only need about 1000 APM to do it. if the banelings are pre-split then the marines are too so all you need to do is snipoe them down Show nested quote +lol, are you serious? Why do you think terrans STOP doing it if it is still so effective? Do they WANT the zerg to have good creep spread? All the zerg needs to do is to have 2 queens stand slightly in front of the tumor and the hellions won't do shit. The reason it works before was that the hellions could kite the queens.
Give marines 6 range and see if any protoss will put their stalkers out in the middle of the map in PvT early game. the queens could always stand in front of the tumours and hit the hellions if they came in they took a bit of damage on the hellion to kill the tumours and stop the spread terrans have jsut become too lazy to kill creep
Yeah man, it's super easy to snipe 40 different units in about 2 seconds. I mean, really-that's why hydra vs baneling always ends well and why protoss put so many zealots in their comp against zerg before colossi/templar, because stalkers can just snipe all the banelings before they get close...
And before, people used hellions to kill creep because it was damage efficient-with kiting and a range advantage, it would be a lot harder for queens to do a lot of damage before hellions sniped the tumors. Now with 3-4 queens out at the front of creep, hellions take a ton of damage every time they get close.
Also forikorderesr, wtf are you talking about. Banshee+raven can kill creep as long as queens aren't there (almost never), and the same with medivac+marines (because queens can actually shoot up, and besides that have a longer range :o ). And really, you say 'oh ya medivac marines good until muta/infestor come out'-aka about the 8 minute mark, where if terran tried to keep up with zerg greed, starport tech that isn't banshee/hellion opener would just be available. And it doesn't actually take a ton of energy for infestors to kill 1 raven and a banshee. One fungal isn't a lot of energy last i checked-fungal+2 queens can easily kill the raven or banshee before they can escape, and the survivor (if there is one) is useless without the other half. And HSM is a terrible idea, because any zerg worth his beans will split the infestors (which already are big enough that the splash won't kill many), and fungal stops the raven from casting any spells anyways
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On December 24 2012 13:27 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:20 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:15 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:47 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
ya... no were definently not talking about a 50/50 ratio thats jsut silly
[quote]
were talking pre-snipe nerf How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings. the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times? Most zergs now have learnt to pre split their banes before they engage so not all the banes will be clumped. Also you have about 2-3 seconds to click 40 times AND split your marines perfectly. Oh, you will only need about 1000 APM to do it. if the banelings are pre-split then the marines are too so all you need to do is snipoe them down lol, are you serious? Why do you think terrans STOP doing it if it is still so effective? Do they WANT the zerg to have good creep spread? All the zerg needs to do is to have 2 queens stand slightly in front of the tumor and the hellions won't do shit. The reason it works before was that the hellions could kite the queens.
Give marines 6 range and see if any protoss will put their stalkers out in the middle of the map in PvT early game. the queens could always stand in front of the tumours and hit the hellions if they came in they took a bit of damage on the hellion to kill the tumours and stop the spread terrans have jsut become too lazy to kill creep Yeah man, it's super easy to snipe 40 different units in about 2 seconds. I mean, really-that's why hydra vs baneling always ends well and why protoss put so many zealots in their comp against zerg before colossi/templar, because stalkers can just snipe all the banelings before they get close... And before, people used hellions to kill creep because it was damage efficient-with kiting and a range advantage, it would be a lot harder for queens to do a lot of damage before hellions sniped the tumors. Now with 3-4 queens out at the front of creep, hellions take a ton of damage every time they get close.
snipe has 10 range and one shots a baneling (pre-nerf which is what were talking about) hydras have 6 range, take 3 shots to take down a baneling so takes the almost 3 times as long to kill one baneling as a ghost does
plus the marines are going to auto gun down some of the banelings
you dont have to kill all the banelings before they connext jsut enough so that the fight is completely in your side
Also forikorderesr, wtf are you talking about. Banshee+raven can kill creep as long as queens aren't there (almost never), and the same with medivac+marines (because queens can actually shoot up, and besides that have a longer range :o ). And really, you say 'oh ya medivac marines good until muta/infestor come out'-aka about the 8 minute mark, where if terran tried to keep up with zerg greed, starport tech that isn't banshee/hellion opener would just be available.
queens wont dare engage the banshee you can jsut drop a PDD or go somewhere else to kill creep, as long as you kill the creep at the edge and escape to non-creep the queens cant pursue
late game takeing a handful marines and stimming into creep and scanning will kill tons of tumours and the Zerg can get his army over there in time (and if you spread them out there not gonna fungal each marine so unless they have lings the marines get away and even with lings some get away)
no Terran i have seen in the last few months has tried anything creative to push back creep they jsut turtle in there base, they dont even do mini push outs to kill creep
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On December 24 2012 13:25 Mavvie wrote:I tested it in a unit tester, and it comes down to how well the marine/ghost is split. For reference: 80 marines, 10 medivacs, 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings and 80 banelings. If the marine/ghost is reasonably pre-split, it only takes a few snipes on banes (hold R, spam click banes). If you're pre-split well, you barely have to even stim. I didn't stutter step at all, and if marine/ghost was split out well then Zerg lost fairly one-sidedly. Snipes and stutter step would make it even better for the Terran. Of course, this relies on splitting the marines really well which is kind of unreasonable. Alternatively, invest in a few tanks to snipe banes noobs
You do realize 80 marines + 10 medivacs + 20 ghosts is 140 supply, while 120 zerlings + 80 banes is 100.
Get that garbage out of here. A real comparison is the original one of 80 marines + 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings + 80 banes.
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On December 24 2012 13:31 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:27 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 13:20 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:15 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:
[quote]
How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings. the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times? Most zergs now have learnt to pre split their banes before they engage so not all the banes will be clumped. Also you have about 2-3 seconds to click 40 times AND split your marines perfectly. Oh, you will only need about 1000 APM to do it. if the banelings are pre-split then the marines are too so all you need to do is snipoe them down lol, are you serious? Why do you think terrans STOP doing it if it is still so effective? Do they WANT the zerg to have good creep spread? All the zerg needs to do is to have 2 queens stand slightly in front of the tumor and the hellions won't do shit. The reason it works before was that the hellions could kite the queens.
Give marines 6 range and see if any protoss will put their stalkers out in the middle of the map in PvT early game. the queens could always stand in front of the tumours and hit the hellions if they came in they took a bit of damage on the hellion to kill the tumours and stop the spread terrans have jsut become too lazy to kill creep Yeah man, it's super easy to snipe 40 different units in about 2 seconds. I mean, really-that's why hydra vs baneling always ends well and why protoss put so many zealots in their comp against zerg before colossi/templar, because stalkers can just snipe all the banelings before they get close... And before, people used hellions to kill creep because it was damage efficient-with kiting and a range advantage, it would be a lot harder for queens to do a lot of damage before hellions sniped the tumors. Now with 3-4 queens out at the front of creep, hellions take a ton of damage every time they get close. snipe has 10 range and one shots a baneling (pre-nerf which is what were talking about) hydras have 6 range, take 3 shots to take down a baneling so takes the almost 3 times as long to kill one baneling as a ghost does plus the marines are going to auto gun down some of the banelings you dont have to kill all the banelings before they connext jsut enough so that the fight is completely in your side
Oh, okay, so only about 30-that's way easier to do in 2 secs, no problem
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On December 05 2012 11:47 Lumi wrote:
The Lings of Liberty thread is a troll, lol. It's statistics are laughable. Also, IPL5 had huge Zerg saturation going into it which makes the results pretty inevitable. And you have those exact IPL5 numbers covering a lot of the gap in your overall race winrates in the last 4 months. Should check the seeding on each of th ose to get a better feel for the whole story. Numbers have stories behidn them. Just taking whoevers graphs look like it supports what you think isn't really reflective of someone having dedication to the full, exact story involved. For every tournament you're showing that has zerg favored saturation, or win rates, or championship wins; There are tournaments that show the exact same for other races. Please make some effort to be honest with yourself, and subsequently the people you talk to, about what's going on.
Also, nothing you've said is original. You make a mistake and lose? Welcome to Starcraft 2. Every race has examples of this happening - it takes some pretty vibrantly tinted whine-goggles to think that this reality is unique to the Terran race. Seriously, the people who bring up this 'point' are desperately in need of a clue and some form of basic ability to view things outside of their bias.
Also, it looks like you have outdated writing on an Infestor which has now been nerfed, and are so committed to whining that you haven't bothered to change this. Other than to put "(still)" in your title. I'll leave it to you to figure out, in time, how significant the infestor changes are.
Timing attacks and queen complaints? We pay for those queens, and if zergs weren't shutting down your attacks with those, they would be using roaches and lings instead. It's not as if Z were just sitting around ready to be shit on by a ton of early game aggressive moves by Terran, and with a queen buff that all suddenly became impotent. Early game aggression is just universally an easy thing to scout and handle. If it wasn't, we'd all use it non-stop. But it is. Furthermore, it's not like queens stand up to stuff and say you shall not pass! There are tons of situations where Zerg is naked behind their queens, not even making a spine anymore, or a baneling nest or a roach warren.
Your attention-as-a-resource bit seems founded on the presupposition that Terran is more apm intensive than Z, and your proofs or examples seem to be numbers pulled right from your butt and delivered with confidence. That's not going to work. Do you want to hear me whine about how you can cue up 3 dropships and not look at them while I have to scramble to deal with all the chaos that causes in one unified moment for me? No, you don't, and I don't want to talk about it, because it doesn't actually matter. You need to get over these arbitrary notions for all things having to be, in every way, equal. The races are not designed that way, and the game would be boring if they were. We all have our own unique shit to deal with. Again, for all the examples you put forward in favor of one race, they can be made for the other races. Please realize this.
As for the late g ame, the infestor nerf is quite relevant, as is the seeker missile buff. You're probably into the trend of laughing at that buff, as if its meaningless, because you refuse to acknowledge or be open minded to what it does for your race. It's not just a resource buff, but through that, a buff to the speed and accessability of having seeker missile splashed into your game, sooner than ever and cheaper than ever. Seeker missile has already been getting a ton of use in recent, and to great effect. We've all seen it. So quit pretending you're fucked and nothing is improving or changing so that you can enjoy the sound of your own whining. That isn't going to help you or your community, not at all.
I'm not going to address the late game at large with you, because that would take a ton of time to do comprehensively, and I can't say that you have made the impression of someone who really understands what is going on, nor do you come off as particularly open-minded for your race. You come off as someone dead set on feeling screwed. You must rage a lot, and therefor need a lot of consolation at the racial level, so that you can bypass having to acknowledge your own mistakes.
Deal with it. /sunglasses
Except that in no case can a zerg army be, "Caught out of position" and lose the game because of it. Zerg armies unlike Terran, can always run away in one way or another.
TvZ is imbalanced and heavily Zerg favored at all levels, from Code S champion to diamond. You mention dropships, but a good zerg will never let a drop do effective damage with proper overlord placement and hell, a few spine crawlers.
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On December 24 2012 13:32 PaperPrinter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:25 Mavvie wrote:I tested it in a unit tester, and it comes down to how well the marine/ghost is split. For reference: 80 marines, 10 medivacs, 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings and 80 banelings. If the marine/ghost is reasonably pre-split, it only takes a few snipes on banes (hold R, spam click banes). If you're pre-split well, you barely have to even stim. I didn't stutter step at all, and if marine/ghost was split out well then Zerg lost fairly one-sidedly. Snipes and stutter step would make it even better for the Terran. Of course, this relies on splitting the marines really well which is kind of unreasonable. Alternatively, invest in a few tanks to snipe banes noobs You do realize 80 marines + 10 medivacs + 20 ghosts is 140 supply, while 120 zerlings + 80 banes is 100. Get that garbage out of here. A real comparison is the original one of 80 marines + 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings + 80 banes.
the terran is likely to have sub-60 SCVs because of mules but the Zerg is likely to have upwards of 80-90 drones, add in queens and its likely to have only 100~ supply available for army
even if you add another 20 supply of zerglign/baneling with pro level micro once the banelings are gone stutter step would make the army more then make up for the extra zerglings
Except that in no case can a zerg army be, "Caught out of position" and lose the game because of it. Zerg armies unlike Terran, can always run away in one way or another.
TvZ is imbalanced and heavily Zerg favored at all levels, from Code S champion to diamond. You mention dropships, but a good zerg will never let a drop do effective damage with proper overlord placement and hell, a few spine crawlers.
while the zerg cant be "caught out of position" the Terran can get into a position the Zerg cant engage him in which could mean they lose right there especially if that position is at a crucial base that they cant afford to lose
if the Zerg is not in position to prevent the terran from getting to that position, or it the terran pushs carefully enough and remain in position the entire push Zerg loses, but Terran are too lazy to deny creep and too impatient to slow push even while there maxed and theres no reason to rush
so what happens when Terran are lazy and impatient? the Zerg catchs thema dn they lose
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On December 24 2012 13:32 PaperPrinter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:25 Mavvie wrote:I tested it in a unit tester, and it comes down to how well the marine/ghost is split. For reference: 80 marines, 10 medivacs, 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings and 80 banelings. If the marine/ghost is reasonably pre-split, it only takes a few snipes on banes (hold R, spam click banes). If you're pre-split well, you barely have to even stim. I didn't stutter step at all, and if marine/ghost was split out well then Zerg lost fairly one-sidedly. Snipes and stutter step would make it even better for the Terran. Of course, this relies on splitting the marines really well which is kind of unreasonable. Alternatively, invest in a few tanks to snipe banes noobs You do realize 80 marines + 10 medivacs + 20 ghosts is 140 supply, while 120 zerlings + 80 banes is 100. Get that garbage out of here. A real comparison is the original one of 80 marines + 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings + 80 banes.
That's a little harsh.
Supply doesn't mean anything. Terran will have way fewer SCVs than Zerg will have drones. Also, every Terran will have medivacs come lategame. Also, banelings are TRIPLE the resources/supply of a marine. I really don't see your point at all. If anything should be compared, it's army values.
And my point still stands that just adding a few tanks makes it so that the Terran really can't lose the fight. +1 tanks just demolish ling/bane, especially the bane.
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On December 24 2012 13:26 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:22 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 13:11 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 12:55 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes??? MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen MVP stopped using that build himself because it is a gimick... zergs just make a wall at natural with 2 evo + spine + 2 queen, and 7-8 roach to hold the third, gg u win. that build is a gimick and only works if u dont know the defense. you dont have to go as all-in as he did with it and still get enough drones to make it worth it Terrans used to use hellions well, they denied creep and delayed bases now they jsut run them to the zerg, pull a u turn when they see queens, park them at a watch tower and let them die to lings ??? not sure if u are joking man. zerg go 4-6 queen now.. so main queen for main base, 1 for natural that hold wall in with 2 evo + spine, and 2-4 for spread creep, hellion cant combat creep tumor without dieing to a high queen count. it only work before cause they had low range.. thing that change was the patch that ruin it all. the onyl difference is the hellions take a bit more damage so instead of being able to completely deny all creep spread for the first like 10 minutes of the game with just 4 hellions you can only slow it down but as long as you control well, and maybe bring an SCV (or jsut return to base for repairs) you could still drastically slow down creep thats not the only trick either, one medivac with a few marines can fly around killing creep at no risk until infesters or mutas are out, one banshee and a raven can kill tons of creep, and if they go infester it takes tons of energy to take them out and with no HSM upgrade you can take a couple infesters with you terran got lazy killing creep they only kill creep when they move out now
Do you even play the game? How do you kill infestors with HSM if you get fungals before you get into range?
Return to base to repair? Yes, hellions are fast but it still takes a long time. Bring SCVs? So when speed lings come and you have to kite/run away, the SCV has hellion speed to keep up?
It seems that your arguement is that it wasn't the queen buff that made creep spreading much easier. But rather that all the terran progamers just decided to be lazy and lose games (when they make a living off winning said games). Yes, that really makes sense.
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On December 24 2012 13:43 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:26 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:22 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 13:11 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 12:55 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes??? MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen MVP stopped using that build himself because it is a gimick... zergs just make a wall at natural with 2 evo + spine + 2 queen, and 7-8 roach to hold the third, gg u win. that build is a gimick and only works if u dont know the defense. you dont have to go as all-in as he did with it and still get enough drones to make it worth it Terrans used to use hellions well, they denied creep and delayed bases now they jsut run them to the zerg, pull a u turn when they see queens, park them at a watch tower and let them die to lings ??? not sure if u are joking man. zerg go 4-6 queen now.. so main queen for main base, 1 for natural that hold wall in with 2 evo + spine, and 2-4 for spread creep, hellion cant combat creep tumor without dieing to a high queen count. it only work before cause they had low range.. thing that change was the patch that ruin it all. the onyl difference is the hellions take a bit more damage so instead of being able to completely deny all creep spread for the first like 10 minutes of the game with just 4 hellions you can only slow it down but as long as you control well, and maybe bring an SCV (or jsut return to base for repairs) you could still drastically slow down creep thats not the only trick either, one medivac with a few marines can fly around killing creep at no risk until infesters or mutas are out, one banshee and a raven can kill tons of creep, and if they go infester it takes tons of energy to take them out and with no HSM upgrade you can take a couple infesters with you terran got lazy killing creep they only kill creep when they move out now Do you even play the game? How do you kill infestors with HSM if you get fungals before you get into range? Return to base to repair? Yes, hellions are fast but it still takes a long time. Bring SCVs? So when speed lings come and you have to kite/run away, the SCV has hellion speed to keep up? It seems that your arguement is that it wasn't the queen buff that made creep spreading much easier. But rather that all the terran progamers just decided to be lazy and lose games (when they make a living off winning said games). Yes, that really makes sense.
wether it makes sense or not its happening, Terran can be denying creep in many ways but they dont they just let there hellions die instead of having them shark around denying creep, they jsut turtle in there base and have there units sit on there asses instead of moving out small groups to kill creep
they could move out there army carefulyl to the edge of the Zergs creep and push back tons of it and retreat before the Zerg gets there units out (then not only do they have less creep but less droning) they could use drops and banshees and ravens (throw down a few autoturrets and let those kill the tumours) they could ahve a couple vikings safely kill infinity overlords and keep drop paths clear
but they NEVER EVER DO
they jsut sit in there base and let the Zerg drone as much as he wants and spread creep as far as hes willing, when they send drops they fly right by an overlord when they push they get completely impatient even when theres no timing there trying to hit they play sloppy and get punished then whine
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Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements.
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On December 24 2012 13:25 Mavvie wrote:I tested it in a unit tester, and it comes down to how well the marine/ghost is split. For reference: 80 marines, 10 medivacs, 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings and 80 banelings. If the marine/ghost is reasonably pre-split, it only takes a few snipes on banes (hold R, spam click banes). If you're pre-split well, you barely have to even stim. I didn't stutter step at all, and if marine/ghost was split out well then Zerg lost fairly one-sidedly. Snipes and stutter step would make it even better for the Terran. Of course, this relies on splitting the marines really well which is kind of unreasonable. Alternatively, invest in a few tanks to snipe banes noobs
i just love how you smuggled in the 10 medivacs :D:D:D
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On December 24 2012 13:49 musai wrote:
Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements.
people are trying to argue that the ghost snipe nerf was unnecesary since you could jsut go ling/bane and punish them for investing in the ghosts so were trying to show themt aht ling bane cannot beat a maxed late game terran army
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On December 24 2012 13:31 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:27 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 13:20 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:15 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:
[quote]
How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings. the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times? Most zergs now have learnt to pre split their banes before they engage so not all the banes will be clumped. Also you have about 2-3 seconds to click 40 times AND split your marines perfectly. Oh, you will only need about 1000 APM to do it. if the banelings are pre-split then the marines are too so all you need to do is snipoe them down lol, are you serious? Why do you think terrans STOP doing it if it is still so effective? Do they WANT the zerg to have good creep spread? All the zerg needs to do is to have 2 queens stand slightly in front of the tumor and the hellions won't do shit. The reason it works before was that the hellions could kite the queens.
Give marines 6 range and see if any protoss will put their stalkers out in the middle of the map in PvT early game. the queens could always stand in front of the tumours and hit the hellions if they came in they took a bit of damage on the hellion to kill the tumours and stop the spread terrans have jsut become too lazy to kill creep Yeah man, it's super easy to snipe 40 different units in about 2 seconds. I mean, really-that's why hydra vs baneling always ends well and why protoss put so many zealots in their comp against zerg before colossi/templar, because stalkers can just snipe all the banelings before they get close... And before, people used hellions to kill creep because it was damage efficient-with kiting and a range advantage, it would be a lot harder for queens to do a lot of damage before hellions sniped the tumors. Now with 3-4 queens out at the front of creep, hellions take a ton of damage every time they get close. Show nested quote +Also forikorderesr, wtf are you talking about. Banshee+raven can kill creep as long as queens aren't there (almost never), and the same with medivac+marines (because queens can actually shoot up, and besides that have a longer range :o ). And really, you say 'oh ya medivac marines good until muta/infestor come out'-aka about the 8 minute mark, where if terran tried to keep up with zerg greed, starport tech that isn't banshee/hellion opener would just be available. queens wont dare engage the banshee you can jsut drop a PDD or go somewhere else to kill creep, as long as you kill the creep at the edge and escape to non-creep the queens cant pursue late game takeing a handful marines and stimming into creep and scanning will kill tons of tumours and the Zerg can get his army over there in time (and if you spread them out there not gonna fungal each marine so unless they have lings the marines get away and even with lings some get away) no Terran i have seen in the last few months has tried anything creative to push back creep they jsut turtle in there base, they dont even do mini push outs to kill creep
rofl what are you talking about. 2-3 Queens will easily take on a banshee even with PDD because there's this funny thing called transfuse-if the raven has enough energy for PDD, there's no way the queens don't have enough for at least 2 transfuses.
late game takeing a handful marines and stimming into creep and scanning will kill tons of tumours
Oh, now you're talking about late game, sorry, i thought when you were mentioning alternatives to hellions killing creep you meant before zerg had enough of an economy to throw away 20 lings to kill a couple of marines.
while the zerg cant be "caught out of position" the Terran can get into a position the Zerg cant engage him in which could mean they lose right there especially if that position is at a crucial base that they cant afford to lose
if the Zerg is not in position to prevent the terran from getting to that position, or it the terran pushs carefully enough and remain in position the entire push Zerg loses, but Terran are too lazy to deny creep and too impatient to slow push even while there maxed and theres no reason to rush
so what happens when Terran are lazy and impatient? the Zerg catchs thema dn they lose
lulz. The only position that terran can get into that zerg can't engage in is if they have multiple bunkers with a wall to prevent ling surrounds and enough tanks to kill 20+ banelings, and this all has to be before broodlords or ultras or infestors with enough energy to throw out 600948523904 infested terrans happens.
You seem to think that Terran can just max out and take a nap while slow pushing-this is such a ridiculous notion I have to wonder if you're being serious. I assume you are aware how strong hive tech techswitches are against terran (if you aren't, then you aren't up to date in the metagame and you should stop talking). If Terran just maxes out and masturbates, then moves forward for 10 seconds, and repeats the cycle, Zerg doesn't even need to techswitch. They can just max out on infestor/BL/Corruptor/Ultra and roll the terran army in seconds-it doesn't matter if it's mech or bio.
Zerg ultimate armies are patently stronger than anything terran can make-there's always a reason to rush, because there's always a time limit on how long Terran can let zerg do anything before they just automatically lose.
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On December 24 2012 13:50 Greenei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:25 Mavvie wrote:I tested it in a unit tester, and it comes down to how well the marine/ghost is split. For reference: 80 marines, 10 medivacs, 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings and 80 banelings. If the marine/ghost is reasonably pre-split, it only takes a few snipes on banes (hold R, spam click banes). If you're pre-split well, you barely have to even stim. I didn't stutter step at all, and if marine/ghost was split out well then Zerg lost fairly one-sidedly. Snipes and stutter step would make it even better for the Terran. Of course, this relies on splitting the marines really well which is kind of unreasonable. Alternatively, invest in a few tanks to snipe banes noobs i just love how you smuggled in the 10 medivacs :D:D:D
I explained in my followup post how that's not unrealistic...
If you have 0 medivacs at 20:00+, you're doing it wrong. If you have no tanks, you're doing it wrong. Why the hell would someone go pure marine/ghost? And as I explained, Zergs will have less army supply than T/P counterparts because we need lotsa drones.
But to be honest, I missed the fact that medivacs weren't mentioned earlier. It's a happy accident
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On December 24 2012 13:51 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:49 musai wrote:
Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements. people are trying to argue that the ghost snipe nerf was unnecesary since you could jsut go ling/bane and punish them for investing in the ghosts so were trying to show themt aht ling bane cannot beat a maxed late game terran army
If you're playing ling bane, terran should never be maxed, because you're playing with some of the most inexpensive units and you can just throw them in waves at the Terran base/army.
Also, rofl. "omg ling bane can't beat mass ghost lategame ogm needs 2 stay nurfed becuz then we lose" is exactly what TvZ is like from the terran side, except replace ling bane with 'anything in the terran army', and replace mass ghost with 'infestors and hive tech'. Oh, and zerg hasn't been nerfed yet.
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I am genuinely curious as to what league Forikorder is in (I'm guessing gold). Anyone that would claim Code S Terrans aren't stopping creep spread because they're "lazy", raven+banshee is an appropriate response for stopping creep spread, and small groups of units can be out on the map and somehow not get wrecked by speedlings...I don't think anything else needs to be said.
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rofl what are you talking about. 2-3 Queens will easily take on a banshee even with PDD because there's this funny thing called transfuse-if the raven has enough energy for PDD, there's no way the queens don't have enough for at least 2 transfuses.
by the time the queens exhaust the PDD the bnshee will have cleaned up the creep and left it doesnt have to kill the queens its there for denying the creep
Oh, now you're talking about late game, sorry, i thought when you were mentioning alternatives to hellions killing creep you meant before zerg had enough of an economy to throw away 20 lings to kill a couple of marines.
if you send a few marines from outside the zergs vision and focus on the tumours at the outside and get out then the zerg wont have time to react and if you have a medivac to pick the marines up its no risk unless theres mutas on the field
lulz. The only position that terran can get into that zerg can't engage in is if they have multiple bunkers with a wall to prevent ling surrounds and enough tanks to kill 20+ banelings, and this all has to be before broodlords or ultras or infestors with enough energy to throw out 600948523904 infested terrans happens.
they jsut need a good area like the third base on antiga where the Zerg has to run up a ramp through a choke to get to them
if the Terran is properly set up and prepared the Zerg cant engage
You seem to think that Terran can just max out and take a nap while slow pushing-this is such a ridiculous notion I have to wonder if you're being serious. I assume you are aware how strong hive tech techswitches are against terran (if you aren't, then you aren't up to date in the metagame and you should stop talking). If Terran just maxes out and masturbates, then moves forward for 10 seconds, and repeats the cycle, Zerg doesn't even need to techswitch. They can just max out on infestor/BL/Corruptor/Ultra and roll the terran army in seconds-it doesn't matter if it's mech or bio.
thats jsut simply not true your trying to make it sound like its literally impossible for Terran to ever win once hive tech is out
i cant even count how many times ive seen a terran move out before hive tech, before even the threat of hive tech and just walk his army all clumped up across the map then jsut get surrounded and died its embarassing watching these people play like there some AI
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im going to reserve my absolute and final judgement on this issue in the next season of Code S
despite all the odds, we have a terran stacked Code S next season. We shall see how this goes. MVP is no longer prime and is injured and new terran hopes have arrived.
In testing, ive found bio/air (including BC's) or mech/air (including bc's) 200food fully upgraded terran armies with 5-6 HSM's will obliterate any zerg army and lose minimal amounts of food. The big problem is getting such an army is impossible on any map other than metropolis which MVP showed months ago against nerchio and other zergs when he still didnt fall off his horse yet that terran can be extremely powerful on a map where you can defend 5 bases with two chokes with planetaries
but what about standard maps. Is there any way for terran to do that on any map other than metropolis??
We shall see right now in this next code S season, if any of these new terran hopes can reveal something we have not discovered yet.
If they all get obliterated id say the problem is in the fact that zerg has a much easier time reaching their lategame than terran does. Terrans lategame as MVP showed will destroy 200food of pure infestor/broodlord/corrupter/ultralisk in a straight up fight like he did against nerchio, but reaching that army is impossible on any map other than metropolis
I hope all the terrans arent just knocked out quickly by PvT's and TvT's, I hope we get to see many ZvZ's this season.
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Terran is a very unforgiving race, while Zerg can lose their army and remax instant or Toss can warp in in no time. Terran can't do it, and that's the hardest thing about playing T.
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On December 24 2012 13:31 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:27 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 13:20 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:15 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:03 wptlzkwjd wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:01 PaperPrinter wrote:On December 24 2012 11:53 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 11:51 PaperPrinter wrote:
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How is a 50/50 ratio silly?? Ts were using 20+ ghosts pre nerf to beat the Tier 3 of Zerg pre patch, doesn't seem silly at all. were talking late game here even assuming 70 SCVs that still leaves 80-90 supply of marines 20 Ghosts + 80 marines is 120 supply. Zerg can have 120 lings, and around 80 banelings for a supply cost of 100, for about the same mineral/gas price. The Zerg would absolutely smash the Terran army. Ling/bane is both cost effective AND supply effective vs a ghost/marine army. 120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? When you say "most of the banelings" that implies the Terran snipes at least 40+ banelings....I don't even think god can snipe that many banelings. the banelings will be clumped shift que them down youre saying you cant click 40 times? Most zergs now have learnt to pre split their banes before they engage so not all the banes will be clumped. Also you have about 2-3 seconds to click 40 times AND split your marines perfectly. Oh, you will only need about 1000 APM to do it. if the banelings are pre-split then the marines are too so all you need to do is snipoe them down lol, are you serious? Why do you think terrans STOP doing it if it is still so effective? Do they WANT the zerg to have good creep spread? All the zerg needs to do is to have 2 queens stand slightly in front of the tumor and the hellions won't do shit. The reason it works before was that the hellions could kite the queens.
Give marines 6 range and see if any protoss will put their stalkers out in the middle of the map in PvT early game. the queens could always stand in front of the tumours and hit the hellions if they came in they took a bit of damage on the hellion to kill the tumours and stop the spread terrans have jsut become too lazy to kill creep Yeah man, it's super easy to snipe 40 different units in about 2 seconds. I mean, really-that's why hydra vs baneling always ends well and why protoss put so many zealots in their comp against zerg before colossi/templar, because stalkers can just snipe all the banelings before they get close... And before, people used hellions to kill creep because it was damage efficient-with kiting and a range advantage, it would be a lot harder for queens to do a lot of damage before hellions sniped the tumors. Now with 3-4 queens out at the front of creep, hellions take a ton of damage every time they get close. snipe has 10 range and one shots a baneling (pre-nerf which is what were talking about) hydras have 6 range, take 3 shots to take down a baneling so takes the almost 3 times as long to kill one baneling as a ghost does plus the marines are going to auto gun down some of the banelings you dont have to kill all the banelings before they connext jsut enough so that the fight is completely in your side Show nested quote +Also forikorderesr, wtf are you talking about. Banshee+raven can kill creep as long as queens aren't there (almost never), and the same with medivac+marines (because queens can actually shoot up, and besides that have a longer range :o ). And really, you say 'oh ya medivac marines good until muta/infestor come out'-aka about the 8 minute mark, where if terran tried to keep up with zerg greed, starport tech that isn't banshee/hellion opener would just be available. queens wont dare engage the banshee you can jsut drop a PDD or go somewhere else to kill creep, as long as you kill the creep at the edge and escape to non-creep the queens cant pursue late game takeing a handful marines and stimming into creep and scanning will kill tons of tumours and the Zerg can get his army over there in time (and if you spread them out there not gonna fungal each marine so unless they have lings the marines get away and even with lings some get away) no Terran i have seen in the last few months has tried anything creative to push back creep they jsut turtle in there base, they dont even do mini push outs to kill creep
dude.. watch MKP play tvz.. he will try to get aggresive with small amounts of units before he has infastructure up, and guess what? he often gets punished for it with just a round of speedlings and then his 2-2 timing is super weak, or the zerg all ins him. Look at mkp vs life last gsl this happened in like all the games, watch any of keens tvz, or bogus trying to be aggressive with small units, same story.
due to how long it takes to get infastructure up and upgrades, zerg will crush terran small moveouts before 2-2 and when more rax/factorys are up
Terran could do small moveout before cause they had larger armys cause they got more infastructure up before adding a 3rd base, but even 2 base timings are crap now cause by the time they hit the zerg will have reaped the reward of a quick 3rd and have enough units to battle it away taking no damage... forcing fast 3 cc, and with 3 cc u cant get infastrcutre AND upgrades up quick to do small movesouts early...
Play Terran vs zerg and u will see how it is. and now, all the code s terran didnt just become lazy all of a sudden
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On December 24 2012 13:55 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:51 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:49 musai wrote:
Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements. people are trying to argue that the ghost snipe nerf was unnecesary since you could jsut go ling/bane and punish them for investing in the ghosts so were trying to show themt aht ling bane cannot beat a maxed late game terran army If you're playing ling bane, terran should never be maxed, because you're playing with some of the most inexpensive units and you can just throw them in waves at the Terran base/army. Also, rofl. "omg ling bane can't beat mass ghost lategame ogm needs 2 stay nurfed becuz then we lose" is exactly what TvZ is like from the terran side, except replace ling bane with 'anything in the terran army', and replace mass ghost with 'infestors and hive tech'. Oh, and zerg hasn't been nerfed yet.
No offense, but a lot of the things you're saying are kind of wrong, and you're diamond. You could be demolishing your current opponents with mass marine if you just had better mechanics. So you should worry about that for a while before claiming things like "zerg hive tech beats terran 100% of the time". If you're diamond it automatically means that your macro is abysmal, which in turn means that your losses are not due to game balance.
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On December 24 2012 14:04 vitrotime wrote:
im going to reserve my absolute and final judgement on this issue in the next season of Code S
despite all the odds, we have a terran stacked Code S next season. We shall see how this goes. MVP is no longer prime and is injured and new terran hopes have arrived.
In testing, ive found bio/air (including BC's) or mech/air (including bc's) 200food fully upgraded terran armies with 5-6 HSM's will obliterate any zerg army and lose minimal amounts of food. The big problem is getting such an army is impossible on any map other than metropolis which MVP showed months ago against nerchio and other zergs when he still didnt fall off his horse yet that terran can be extremely powerful on a map where you can defend 5 bases with two chokes with planetaries
but what about standard maps. Is there any way for terran to do that on any map other than metropolis??
We shall see right now in this next code S season, if any of these new terran hopes can reveal something we have not discovered yet.
If they all get obliterated id say the problem is in the fact that zerg has a much easier time reaching their lategame than terran does. Terrans lategame as MVP showed will destroy 200food of pure infestor/broodlord/corrupter/ultralisk in a straight up fight like he did against nerchio, but reaching that army is impossible on any map other than metropolis
I hope all the terrans arent just knocked out quickly by PvT's and TvT's, I hope we get to see many ZvZ's this season.
I agree with this that we should wait till next code s before any changes. I hope we dont get to see that many zvz's this season though :/ Ive had my fill for a while now.
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On December 24 2012 14:04 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +rofl what are you talking about. 2-3 Queens will easily take on a banshee even with PDD because there's this funny thing called transfuse-if the raven has enough energy for PDD, there's no way the queens don't have enough for at least 2 transfuses. by the time the queens exhaust the PDD the bnshee will have cleaned up the creep and left it doesnt have to kill the queens its there for denying the creep Show nested quote +Oh, now you're talking about late game, sorry, i thought when you were mentioning alternatives to hellions killing creep you meant before zerg had enough of an economy to throw away 20 lings to kill a couple of marines. if you send a few marines from outside the zergs vision and focus on the tumours at the outside and get out then the zerg wont have time to react and if you have a medivac to pick the marines up its no risk unless theres mutas on the field Show nested quote +lulz. The only position that terran can get into that zerg can't engage in is if they have multiple bunkers with a wall to prevent ling surrounds and enough tanks to kill 20+ banelings, and this all has to be before broodlords or ultras or infestors with enough energy to throw out 600948523904 infested terrans happens. they jsut need a good area like the third base on antiga where the Zerg has to run up a ramp through a choke to get to them if the Terran is properly set up and prepared the Zerg cant engage Show nested quote +You seem to think that Terran can just max out and take a nap while slow pushing-this is such a ridiculous notion I have to wonder if you're being serious. I assume you are aware how strong hive tech techswitches are against terran (if you aren't, then you aren't up to date in the metagame and you should stop talking). If Terran just maxes out and masturbates, then moves forward for 10 seconds, and repeats the cycle, Zerg doesn't even need to techswitch. They can just max out on infestor/BL/Corruptor/Ultra and roll the terran army in seconds-it doesn't matter if it's mech or bio. thats jsut simply not true your trying to make it sound like its literally impossible for Terran to ever win once hive tech is out i cant even count how many times ive seen a terran move out before hive tech, before even the threat of hive tech and just walk his army all clumped up across the map then jsut get surrounded and died its embarassing watching these people play like there some AI
1) except queens are always at the edge of creep, durp
2) It doesn't matter if zerg can't engage. Their lategame army is superior, period. Antiga is actually a terrible map for terran after about 15 minutes, because there's nowhere they can safely take a base once zerg gets hive tech and takes control of the middle-as opposed to zerg, because with speedlings they can respond to attacks very quickly, while terran cannot do the same
3) Ever wonder why terrans move out before hive tech? lol. Terran doesn't slowpush anymore because with the queen buff, the boost to early economy means that after about 10 minutes (when zerg gets about 80 drones) they dedicate larva purely to army. The longer you wait, the better zerg gets, so the risk of getting caught unsieged is less than letting zerg abuse the fact that they can build drones for 10 minutes before making units and then power an army just as quickly.
No offense, but a lot of the things you're saying are kind of wrong, and you're diamond. You could be demolishing your current opponents with mass marine if you just had better mechanics. So you should worry about that for a while before claiming things like "zerg hive tech beats terran 100% of the time". If you're diamond it automatically means that your macro is abysmal, which in turn means that your losses are not due to game balance.
So i can't be upset with balance unless I'm a pro? rofl. That's a dumb argument. Yeah, I could win more games with better mechanics, sure. Doesn't mean that I can't watch games and see how dumb TvZ is and/or how much easier of a time zerg has because they can just build queens and drones and then their hive tech units are way better than the endgame combos that T/P get. If you take that argument, just delete all of the responses (and the thread, actually), and let the pros talk. I'll shut up if you get everyone else that isn't a pro player to as well
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On December 24 2012 14:14 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:55 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 13:51 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:49 musai wrote:
Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements. people are trying to argue that the ghost snipe nerf was unnecesary since you could jsut go ling/bane and punish them for investing in the ghosts so were trying to show themt aht ling bane cannot beat a maxed late game terran army If you're playing ling bane, terran should never be maxed, because you're playing with some of the most inexpensive units and you can just throw them in waves at the Terran base/army. Also, rofl. "omg ling bane can't beat mass ghost lategame ogm needs 2 stay nurfed becuz then we lose" is exactly what TvZ is like from the terran side, except replace ling bane with 'anything in the terran army', and replace mass ghost with 'infestors and hive tech'. Oh, and zerg hasn't been nerfed yet. No offense, but a lot of the things you're saying are kind of wrong, and you're diamond. You could be demolishing your current opponents with mass marine if you just had better mechanics. So you should worry about that for a while before claiming things like "zerg hive tech beats terran 100% of the time". If you're diamond it automatically means that your macro is abysmal, which in turn means that your losses are not due to game balance.
How is that different when diamond zergs claimed ghost snipe was OP back in 2011? I am sure if they were diamond, they can just improve their injects and creep spread and kill diamond terrans before they get enough ghosts out. And I doubt diamond terrans had enough skills to snipe all their banelings effectively.
Obviously, all of us here on these boards can improve our own skills to up our win rates. But that doesn't mean we can't watch pro games and see some issues with the current balance.
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On December 24 2012 13:49 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:43 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 13:26 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:22 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 13:11 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:05 EclipseT wrote:On December 24 2012 12:55 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 12:46 EclipseT wrote:
arguing about old snipe is useless... point now is zerg blocks harass now easy with queen and they have a much more efficient army vs Terran in late game, unless the zerg does not split and get hits by seeker missiles. If one race is to have superior late game then other should be able to do damage early on?? Terran loses late and can not do damage early... only thing is 2-2 timing to hit before brood is out, but zerg have adapted and got quicker hive so 2-2 push not as effective.. Z can also put pressure on T for being greedy, T can only match the Z greed.
even balance aside, wanst match better to play and watch when there was back n forth action instead of no rush 14 minutes??? MVP VS Life GSL grand finals i cant remember how many games but i know at least 2 of them MVP easily got hellions into Lifes man and roasted enough drones to kill him right then and there (think he even did it 3 games in a row) queen range only puts a slightly smaller timer on the hellion they can still harass as well as they could pre-queen buff and they can still camp outside the natural and deny creep and the third but terran refuse to do it and instead scapegoat the queen MVP stopped using that build himself because it is a gimick... zergs just make a wall at natural with 2 evo + spine + 2 queen, and 7-8 roach to hold the third, gg u win. that build is a gimick and only works if u dont know the defense. you dont have to go as all-in as he did with it and still get enough drones to make it worth it Terrans used to use hellions well, they denied creep and delayed bases now they jsut run them to the zerg, pull a u turn when they see queens, park them at a watch tower and let them die to lings ??? not sure if u are joking man. zerg go 4-6 queen now.. so main queen for main base, 1 for natural that hold wall in with 2 evo + spine, and 2-4 for spread creep, hellion cant combat creep tumor without dieing to a high queen count. it only work before cause they had low range.. thing that change was the patch that ruin it all. the onyl difference is the hellions take a bit more damage so instead of being able to completely deny all creep spread for the first like 10 minutes of the game with just 4 hellions you can only slow it down but as long as you control well, and maybe bring an SCV (or jsut return to base for repairs) you could still drastically slow down creep thats not the only trick either, one medivac with a few marines can fly around killing creep at no risk until infesters or mutas are out, one banshee and a raven can kill tons of creep, and if they go infester it takes tons of energy to take them out and with no HSM upgrade you can take a couple infesters with you terran got lazy killing creep they only kill creep when they move out now Do you even play the game? How do you kill infestors with HSM if you get fungals before you get into range? Return to base to repair? Yes, hellions are fast but it still takes a long time. Bring SCVs? So when speed lings come and you have to kite/run away, the SCV has hellion speed to keep up? It seems that your arguement is that it wasn't the queen buff that made creep spreading much easier. But rather that all the terran progamers just decided to be lazy and lose games (when they make a living off winning said games). Yes, that really makes sense. wether it makes sense or not its happening, Terran can be denying creep in many ways but they dont they just let there hellions die instead of having them shark around denying creep, they jsut turtle in there base and have there units sit on there asses instead of moving out small groups to kill creep they could move out there army carefulyl to the edge of the Zergs creep and push back tons of it and retreat before the Zerg gets there units out (then not only do they have less creep but less droning) they could use drops and banshees and ravens (throw down a few autoturrets and let those kill the tumours) they could ahve a couple vikings safely kill infinity overlords and keep drop paths clear but they NEVER EVER DO they jsut sit in there base and let the Zerg drone as much as he wants and spread creep as far as hes willing, when they send drops they fly right by an overlord when they push they get completely impatient even when theres no timing there trying to hit they play sloppy and get punished then whine
Of course you need to use common sense. It does not make sense that all the terrans just stop doing what YOU claim is super effective. It would be like saying "Korean terrans are just better" back in the GomTvT days. Then why did terrans get nerf and maps changed? We can just go on the premise that Korean terrans are just superior players to Korean zergs and Korean protoss. So the game was balanced, right? Why the changes then?
And all your 'suggestions' seem to point to air as a solution. How many starports do you want the terran to build (banshee, raven, vikings)? Which are all shutdown by muta and infestors. If you did get those air units, your ground army just isn't big enough to fight the ling/bane army (with either mutas or infestors).
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^I agree, if you're talking about spectating pro games, then yes balance talk is worthwhile.
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It's so ironic how the zerg players come and point out player saturation in tournaments. When Zerg was still decent and Terran was solid (around the time of retail), no one ever cited this.
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On December 24 2012 14:14 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:55 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 13:51 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:49 musai wrote:
Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements. people are trying to argue that the ghost snipe nerf was unnecesary since you could jsut go ling/bane and punish them for investing in the ghosts so were trying to show themt aht ling bane cannot beat a maxed late game terran army If you're playing ling bane, terran should never be maxed, because you're playing with some of the most inexpensive units and you can just throw them in waves at the Terran base/army. Also, rofl. "omg ling bane can't beat mass ghost lategame ogm needs 2 stay nurfed becuz then we lose" is exactly what TvZ is like from the terran side, except replace ling bane with 'anything in the terran army', and replace mass ghost with 'infestors and hive tech'. Oh, and zerg hasn't been nerfed yet. No offense, but a lot of the things you're saying are kind of wrong, and you're diamond. You could be demolishing your current opponents with mass marine if you just had better mechanics. So you should worry about that for a while before claiming things like "zerg hive tech beats terran 100% of the time". If you're diamond it automatically means that your macro is abysmal, which in turn means that your losses are not due to game balance.
This argument is pointless. 1. he plays people of his skill level, if he improves he will get better opponents and he is in the same spot as before. 2. pro terrans, even korean terrans struggle with TvZ right now.
Nebbish is spot on on so many things. All terran early game nerfs + queen buff + better early game scouting + bigger maps/overlord friendly maps, this all made timings impossible. In standard TvZ, there is no window to punish zerg, at any point in the game.
TvP is a great example. After terran finishes stim, shield and gets medivacs he has a timing where terran is stronger because protoss has no aoe, and can execute the timing that will either kill/damage protoss or enable terran to secure a third before protoss.
There is nothing like that in TvZ. Zerg is strong early game, mid game (infestors pop out), late game.
Terran is forced to play greedy and hope to win in a long macro game. This would be great if both sides would need to work equally hard for a win. But this is not the case. OP covers that great when he speaks of attention as resource and unforgivingness of the matchup. Not to mention the superior macro, production and tech switch from zerg. And now add infestors to the mix....
He presents facts and it is really stupid to see zergs come here and drop 1 or 2 lines about random stuff like ghosts and snipe (not related to the OP at all), after the man went through all the trouble to make the original post. Come to think of it, it resembles the current TvZ matchup perfectly...
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This is very true. I especially agree with the attention idea.
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Also, there is a difference between being able to do 1. an imbalanced push that is extremely hard to defend and 2. being able to put pressure on your opponent to get ahead. In TvZ Blizzard first addressed the balance problems, and then, when win rates got close to 50% in months they proceeded and did #2.
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On December 24 2012 16:13 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 14:14 Doodsmack wrote:On December 24 2012 13:55 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 13:51 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:49 musai wrote:
Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements. people are trying to argue that the ghost snipe nerf was unnecesary since you could jsut go ling/bane and punish them for investing in the ghosts so were trying to show themt aht ling bane cannot beat a maxed late game terran army If you're playing ling bane, terran should never be maxed, because you're playing with some of the most inexpensive units and you can just throw them in waves at the Terran base/army. Also, rofl. "omg ling bane can't beat mass ghost lategame ogm needs 2 stay nurfed becuz then we lose" is exactly what TvZ is like from the terran side, except replace ling bane with 'anything in the terran army', and replace mass ghost with 'infestors and hive tech'. Oh, and zerg hasn't been nerfed yet. No offense, but a lot of the things you're saying are kind of wrong, and you're diamond. You could be demolishing your current opponents with mass marine if you just had better mechanics. So you should worry about that for a while before claiming things like "zerg hive tech beats terran 100% of the time". If you're diamond it automatically means that your macro is abysmal, which in turn means that your losses are not due to game balance. This argument is pointless. 1. he plays people of his skill level, if he improves he will get better opponents and he is in the same spot as before. 2. pro terrans, even korean terrans struggle with TvZ right now. Nebbish is spot on on so many things. All terran early game nerfs + queen buff + better early game scouting + bigger maps/overlord friendly maps, this all made timings impossible. In standard TvZ, there is no window to punish zerg, at any point in the game. TvP is a great example. After terran finishes stim, shield and gets medivacs he has a timing where terran is stronger because protoss has no aoe, and can execute the timing that will either kill/damage protoss or enable terran to secure a third before protoss. There is nothing like that in TvZ. Zerg is strong early game, mid game (infestors pop out), late game. Terran is forced to play greedy and hope to win in a long macro game. This would be great if both sides would need to work equally hard for a win. But this is not the case. OP covers that great when he speaks of attention as resource and unforgivingness of the matchup. Not to mention the superior macro, production and tech switch from zerg. And now add infestors to the mix.... He presents facts and it is really stupid to see zergs come here and drop 1 or 2 lines about random stuff like ghosts and snipe (not related to the OP at all), after the man went through all the trouble to make the original post. Come to think of it, it resembles the current TvZ matchup perfectly...
It's not pointless because the outcomes of his games are not determined by balance, therefore he shouldn't complain about balance for his own games. Only when mechanics become near optimal do things like decision making and game balance provide the "difference" between players. Until then it's just two players fumbling around with their race, resulting in out of whack army sizes which makes balance a marginal issue.
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Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something.
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On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something.
I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game.
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Nebbish - Awesome post, always nice to see thoughtful observations on the sensitive issue of balance. A few thoughts of my own in response:
1. Since your OP, the evidence that zergs are OP has become impossible to ignore:
-At Homestory Cup VI we had the ignominy of an all-zerg semifinals. Zerg match win% = 71.9% [source]
-At GSL Blizzard Cup, all 5 zergs placed in the top 6. Zerg win% = 73.3% (!!!)
-IPL5, which you mentioned, had zerg win% of 61.2%. TvZ win% was an abysmal 35.1%. 6 of the top8 were zerg, including zvz finals.
-Zerg competitive win%, last 31 days: 59.4% [source]
That is 3 of the last 4 premier tournaments. By any metric, competitive SC2 is significantly out of balance. At this point it's quite possible that even zergs are getting tired of playing zvz's, which is arguably the most gruelling SC2 matchup (200/200 infestor/BL v. infestor/BL anyone?)
2. As you correctly observed, recent infestor nerfs would not be enough. You could say it had the same impact on zerg performance as a bug hitting a speeding freight train.
3. HotS comes out in 3 months and will completely reset the metagame, as we have seen in the HotS beta. It will take time to shake out, but like Mitt Romney's etch-a-sketch, it will be a clean slate. You could argue that we can wait till then, but IMO Blizzard needs to act now as the game balance is too far off-axis to leave for 3 more months.
4. PvT seems well-balanced ATM. It is ZvT and ZvP that currently are imbalanced. Therefore it makes sense to leave P and T alone, and focus on nerfing zerg back into balance with the other two. In both cases, as has been clearly identified, infestors are a key problem, making zerg late-game overwhelming.
Infestor/BL is almost impossible to stop in the hands of competent players. In PvZ everyone has been focused on "imba" immortal all-in: well in the GSL Blizzard Cup finals we got to witness the "unbeatable" immortal all-in from the current best toss in the world, and world champion, Parting, take on Life. The result? Life defeated Parting's immortal all-in 2/3 times while Parting was never able to find an answer Life's late-game zerg macro. If Parting is unable to answer infestor/BL, who can?
5. Zerg late-game dominance has another more subtle effect that is contributing to current zerg superiority. Everyone knows gas and minerals are SC2 resources, but SC2 has other resources too. You mentioned attention, which is another resource, which you may be able to express as APM. There is also another resource: time. Since zergs know their lategame is so good, instead of attacking and making timing pushes, many zergs just choose to sit back, turtle, and macro, because they know eventually they will win. They trade units (res) for time, stalling until they assemble an unstoppable infestor/BL swarm. Conversely protoss and terran are forced into making risky timing pushes which may otherwise be suboptimal because they know their late-game chances are so poor. Once zergs realized time was on their side, it has pushed many of their matchups over the edge.
6. The solution seems simple: nerf infestors further, and possibly BL as well, to bring zerg back into equilibrium with the other races. Perhaps it would be wise to apply the HotS fungal growth change to a missile attack to try and arrest zerg lategame superiority. Zerg OP late-game is currently at the root of SC2's imbalance and attacking it directly is the only sensible way to restore balance.
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On December 24 2012 13:54 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:50 Greenei wrote:On December 24 2012 13:25 Mavvie wrote:I tested it in a unit tester, and it comes down to how well the marine/ghost is split. For reference: 80 marines, 10 medivacs, 20 ghosts vs 120 zerglings and 80 banelings. If the marine/ghost is reasonably pre-split, it only takes a few snipes on banes (hold R, spam click banes). If you're pre-split well, you barely have to even stim. I didn't stutter step at all, and if marine/ghost was split out well then Zerg lost fairly one-sidedly. Snipes and stutter step would make it even better for the Terran. Of course, this relies on splitting the marines really well which is kind of unreasonable. Alternatively, invest in a few tanks to snipe banes noobs i just love how you smuggled in the 10 medivacs :D:D:D I explained in my followup post how that's not unrealistic... If you have 0 medivacs at 20:00+, you're doing it wrong. If you have no tanks, you're doing it wrong. Why the hell would someone go pure marine/ghost? And as I explained, Zergs will have less army supply than T/P counterparts because we need lotsa drones. But to be honest, I missed the fact that medivacs weren't mentioned earlier. It's a happy accident
Mostly because that's 100 army supply against 140 army supply and 9000 minerals/3000 gas vs 7000/2000 (withouth speaking of the logistics needed to get 20 ghosts lol) , and you are not using infestors to connect the banelings. Good try tho.
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On December 24 2012 13:57 tenklavir wrote:
I am genuinely curious as to what league Forikorder is in (I'm guessing gold). Anyone that would claim Code S Terrans aren't stopping creep spread because they're "lazy", raven+banshee is an appropriate response for stopping creep spread, and small groups of units can be out on the map and somehow not get wrecked by speedlings...I don't think anything else needs to be said.
I had previously considered avilo the king of the apologists, but clearly we have someone new on the throne. I've never seen anything more shameless.
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On December 24 2012 16:34 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 16:13 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 24 2012 14:14 Doodsmack wrote:On December 24 2012 13:55 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 13:51 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:49 musai wrote:
Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements. people are trying to argue that the ghost snipe nerf was unnecesary since you could jsut go ling/bane and punish them for investing in the ghosts so were trying to show themt aht ling bane cannot beat a maxed late game terran army If you're playing ling bane, terran should never be maxed, because you're playing with some of the most inexpensive units and you can just throw them in waves at the Terran base/army. Also, rofl. "omg ling bane can't beat mass ghost lategame ogm needs 2 stay nurfed becuz then we lose" is exactly what TvZ is like from the terran side, except replace ling bane with 'anything in the terran army', and replace mass ghost with 'infestors and hive tech'. Oh, and zerg hasn't been nerfed yet. No offense, but a lot of the things you're saying are kind of wrong, and you're diamond. You could be demolishing your current opponents with mass marine if you just had better mechanics. So you should worry about that for a while before claiming things like "zerg hive tech beats terran 100% of the time". If you're diamond it automatically means that your macro is abysmal, which in turn means that your losses are not due to game balance. This argument is pointless. 1. he plays people of his skill level, if he improves he will get better opponents and he is in the same spot as before. 2. pro terrans, even korean terrans struggle with TvZ right now. Nebbish is spot on on so many things. All terran early game nerfs + queen buff + better early game scouting + bigger maps/overlord friendly maps, this all made timings impossible. In standard TvZ, there is no window to punish zerg, at any point in the game. TvP is a great example. After terran finishes stim, shield and gets medivacs he has a timing where terran is stronger because protoss has no aoe, and can execute the timing that will either kill/damage protoss or enable terran to secure a third before protoss. There is nothing like that in TvZ. Zerg is strong early game, mid game (infestors pop out), late game. Terran is forced to play greedy and hope to win in a long macro game. This would be great if both sides would need to work equally hard for a win. But this is not the case. OP covers that great when he speaks of attention as resource and unforgivingness of the matchup. Not to mention the superior macro, production and tech switch from zerg. And now add infestors to the mix.... He presents facts and it is really stupid to see zergs come here and drop 1 or 2 lines about random stuff like ghosts and snipe (not related to the OP at all), after the man went through all the trouble to make the original post. Come to think of it, it resembles the current TvZ matchup perfectly... It's not pointless because the outcomes of his games are not determined by balance, therefore he shouldn't complain about balance for his own games. Only when mechanics become near optimal do things like decision making and game balance provide the "difference" between players. Until then it's just two players fumbling around with their race, resulting in out of whack army sizes which makes balance a marginal issue.
Uh, yes they are? I'm playing people at the same skill level as me (aka we make the same number of mistakes). Just because it's a lower level of equal doesn't mean balance doesn't affect it...
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Its amazing to see Zergs defend themselves....OP did a really great job pointing out the imbalance...he even prepared evidence for it!
Just accept it Zergs, especially that Forikorder guy, saying Terrans are too lazy to clean creep. Is he saying Code S Korean Terrans are "lazy" ? They play this game for a living for God sake.
Curious to see how far Zergs will defend themselves when the odds are obviously and clearly against them
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On December 24 2012 18:58 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 17:48 forsooth wrote:On December 24 2012 13:57 tenklavir wrote:
I am genuinely curious as to what league Forikorder is in (I'm guessing gold). Anyone that would claim Code S Terrans aren't stopping creep spread because they're "lazy", raven+banshee is an appropriate response for stopping creep spread, and small groups of units can be out on the map and somehow not get wrecked by speedlings...I don't think anything else needs to be said. I had previously considered avilo the king of the apologists, but clearly we have someone new on the throne. I've never seen anything more shameless. It's cute that you consider them apologists, but can you point flaws in their reasoning?
It's apparent in the quote. Notably that Terrans aren't stopping creep because they're lazy, raven+banshee is necessary to stop creep and a small group of marines can clear out all the creep before getting taken out.
Forikorder is one of the most delusional apologists that I've ever read on this site. Go back and read some of the things he has said in this thread. Basically Code S Terrans would be fine if they did what he says.
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On December 24 2012 16:56 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something. I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game.
Tbh infestors were always a problem. After the snipe nerf, terran has really nothing to contest with infestor BL. The queen buff just a shed a light on how ridiculous the combo truly is(although I'm sure most of us terrans knew that already, so we just won in midgame/lost in lategame).
Personally I wish they'd buff snipe back to where its worth it to make ghosts vs BLs and possibly do a very minor nerf somewhere in the opening of 3 base zerg. I just find it stupid that (almost) no matter how ahead you are, (almost) no matter what units you have, it's just crazy to engage infestor BL unless you can get like a full surround.
If bl+infestor weren't so good, zerg had some reason to do something else than infestor into BL while playing passive.
Edit: I've said it here before, but terran needs something that can combat both bls and ultras decently. It also needs to fit in with bio mech decently. Ghosts are imo the best option due to infrastructure requirement and because snipe is only usable vs zlots/ht in TvP(and in TvT, even though I never went ghosts and got slaughtered a few times vs it, it was fun/interesting build not OP). Buffing vikings fx. would effect TvP a lot. So yer, I'd personally like to see a ghost buff or a straight up bl/infestor nerf.
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On December 24 2012 18:58 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 17:48 forsooth wrote:On December 24 2012 13:57 tenklavir wrote:
I am genuinely curious as to what league Forikorder is in (I'm guessing gold). Anyone that would claim Code S Terrans aren't stopping creep spread because they're "lazy", raven+banshee is an appropriate response for stopping creep spread, and small groups of units can be out on the map and somehow not get wrecked by speedlings...I don't think anything else needs to be said. I had previously considered avilo the king of the apologists, but clearly we have someone new on the throne. I've never seen anything more shameless. It's cute that you consider them apologists, but can you point flaws in their reasoning?
Read his posts throughout the thread yourself. If you're still wondering after that, I have no reason to discuss anything with you.
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On December 24 2012 19:30 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 16:56 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something. I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game. Tbh infestors were always a problem. After the snipe nerf, terran has really nothing to contest with infestor BL. The queen buff just a shed a light on how ridiculous the combo truly is(although I'm sure most of us terrans knew that already, so we just won in midgame/lost in lategame). Personally I wish they'd buff snipe back to where its worth it to make ghosts vs BLs and possibly do a very minor nerf somewhere in the opening of 3 base zerg. I just find it stupid that (almost) no matter how ahead you are, (almost) no matter what units you have, it's just crazy to engage infestor BL unless you can get like a full surround. If bl+infestor weren't so good, zerg had some reason to do something else than infestor into BL while playing passive.
Prenerf snipe, ghost were supplyefficient vs any zerg unit minus the baneling. Mass ghost countered anything but mass baneling. So you need a few tanks... (5-10) Then you have an unbeatable army.
Bl/Inf/Cor is already a problem, as it is really hard to counter. But at least in theory it is possible for Terran. Mass ghost was 2times stronger. (and i do believe todays sniping would be far superior to 2011s)
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On December 24 2012 19:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 19:30 Zarahtra wrote:On December 24 2012 16:56 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something. I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game. Tbh infestors were always a problem. After the snipe nerf, terran has really nothing to contest with infestor BL. The queen buff just a shed a light on how ridiculous the combo truly is(although I'm sure most of us terrans knew that already, so we just won in midgame/lost in lategame). Personally I wish they'd buff snipe back to where its worth it to make ghosts vs BLs and possibly do a very minor nerf somewhere in the opening of 3 base zerg. I just find it stupid that (almost) no matter how ahead you are, (almost) no matter what units you have, it's just crazy to engage infestor BL unless you can get like a full surround. If bl+infestor weren't so good, zerg had some reason to do something else than infestor into BL while playing passive. Prenerf snipe, ghost were supplyefficient vs any zerg unit minus the baneling. Mass ghost countered anything but mass baneling. So you need a few tanks... (5-10) Then you have an unbeatable army. Bl/Inf/Cor is already a problem, as it is really hard to counter. But at least in theory it is possible for Terran. Mass ghost was 2times stronger. (and i do believe todays sniping would be far superior to 2011s)
Roaches mate, ghosts are totally useless against them. Large swells of pretty much any cheap unit can overwhelm ghosts.
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I don't get people who mention how strong ghosts were. Are ghosts still too strong? No? Than what does it have with this discussion, you know, the one that is about the TvZ of today?
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On December 24 2012 16:34 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 16:13 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 24 2012 14:14 Doodsmack wrote:On December 24 2012 13:55 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 24 2012 13:51 Forikorder wrote:On December 24 2012 13:49 musai wrote:
Stop comparing units using basic compositions, obviously X will beat Y if you factor in other things. You add a few tanks so you have MM/Tank/Ghosts vs ling/bane, are you serious rofl.
Supply should mean something when certain units aren't good for their cost (tanks at 3) whereas some others may be too good for their cost (infestors at 2) when you have max vs. max engagements. people are trying to argue that the ghost snipe nerf was unnecesary since you could jsut go ling/bane and punish them for investing in the ghosts so were trying to show themt aht ling bane cannot beat a maxed late game terran army If you're playing ling bane, terran should never be maxed, because you're playing with some of the most inexpensive units and you can just throw them in waves at the Terran base/army. Also, rofl. "omg ling bane can't beat mass ghost lategame ogm needs 2 stay nurfed becuz then we lose" is exactly what TvZ is like from the terran side, except replace ling bane with 'anything in the terran army', and replace mass ghost with 'infestors and hive tech'. Oh, and zerg hasn't been nerfed yet. No offense, but a lot of the things you're saying are kind of wrong, and you're diamond. You could be demolishing your current opponents with mass marine if you just had better mechanics. So you should worry about that for a while before claiming things like "zerg hive tech beats terran 100% of the time". If you're diamond it automatically means that your macro is abysmal, which in turn means that your losses are not due to game balance. This argument is pointless. 1. he plays people of his skill level, if he improves he will get better opponents and he is in the same spot as before. 2. pro terrans, even korean terrans struggle with TvZ right now. Nebbish is spot on on so many things. All terran early game nerfs + queen buff + better early game scouting + bigger maps/overlord friendly maps, this all made timings impossible. In standard TvZ, there is no window to punish zerg, at any point in the game. TvP is a great example. After terran finishes stim, shield and gets medivacs he has a timing where terran is stronger because protoss has no aoe, and can execute the timing that will either kill/damage protoss or enable terran to secure a third before protoss. There is nothing like that in TvZ. Zerg is strong early game, mid game (infestors pop out), late game. Terran is forced to play greedy and hope to win in a long macro game. This would be great if both sides would need to work equally hard for a win. But this is not the case. OP covers that great when he speaks of attention as resource and unforgivingness of the matchup. Not to mention the superior macro, production and tech switch from zerg. And now add infestors to the mix.... He presents facts and it is really stupid to see zergs come here and drop 1 or 2 lines about random stuff like ghosts and snipe (not related to the OP at all), after the man went through all the trouble to make the original post. Come to think of it, it resembles the current TvZ matchup perfectly... It's not pointless because the outcomes of his games are not determined by balance, therefore he shouldn't complain about balance for his own games. Only when mechanics become near optimal do things like decision making and game balance provide the "difference" between players. Until then it's just two players fumbling around with their race, resulting in out of whack army sizes which makes balance a marginal issue.
It is pointless because no one can play perfectly. We all play people of similar skill levels and balance affects us all, only thing that can be argued is how much. You can basically always pull mechanics, macro, micro, positioning, army composition, upgrades or any other mistake for someone's loss. It is more about who is allowed more mistakes and whose mistakes cost more. Because both players being equal in skill, this will have an impact.
Imagine this experiment:
1. Blizzard introduces auto larva inject.
2. All zergs now have perfect injects. Zergs becomes too strong as a result.
3. Blizzard nerfs zerg units to account for the increase in production.
4. Blizzard removes auto larva inject.
Is zerg now up or we should just say: their mechanics are not good enough, work on your injects and you will win more games. Gold terrans suddenly teaching Code S level zergs how to play etc. Code S zergs would probably adapt eventually but for anyone below the game would become much harder and much less enjoyable. This is what happens when a race has very high skill ceiling.
Because that is what some zergs are doing.
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On December 24 2012 19:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 19:30 Zarahtra wrote:On December 24 2012 16:56 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something. I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game. Tbh infestors were always a problem. After the snipe nerf, terran has really nothing to contest with infestor BL. The queen buff just a shed a light on how ridiculous the combo truly is(although I'm sure most of us terrans knew that already, so we just won in midgame/lost in lategame). Personally I wish they'd buff snipe back to where its worth it to make ghosts vs BLs and possibly do a very minor nerf somewhere in the opening of 3 base zerg. I just find it stupid that (almost) no matter how ahead you are, (almost) no matter what units you have, it's just crazy to engage infestor BL unless you can get like a full surround. If bl+infestor weren't so good, zerg had some reason to do something else than infestor into BL while playing passive. Prenerf snipe, ghost were supplyefficient vs any zerg unit minus the baneling. Mass ghost countered anything but mass baneling. So you need a few tanks... (5-10) Then you have an unbeatable army. Bl/Inf/Cor is already a problem, as it is really hard to counter. But at least in theory it is possible for Terran. Mass ghost was 2times stronger. (and i do believe todays sniping would be far superior to 2011s)
I must've missed that. We're talking about vikings here, allining before they are out, dropping and never engaging the army or maybe just outplaying the zerg, how can terran counter bl/inf/corr?
And I'm not saying go back to 45 dmg snipe, like I've said earlier in the thread, I'd have liked to see fx. 45 dmg -10 vs massive. That takes 7/15 snipes vs bl/ultra up from 6/12. Will the BLs still fall? Probably in most cases, but the remax of the zerg is a lot stronger as more dmg has been taken by the terran and less snipes are around against ultras(aswell as they take more snipes) charging in with the sling/bling behind them.
PS. Those "few"(up to 30 supply is hardly few) tanks would have to unsiege in the BL/ghost war, as else the ghosts just get massacred. There fx zergs could add in blings to just brute force the ghosts down. Speaking from experience, if the ghost army goes down once(and even just gets dmg'd decently) it is really hard to get it back up and running, mostly due to time rather than min/gas.
On December 24 2012 20:01 Qwerty85 wrote:
I don't get people who mention how strong ghosts were. Are ghosts still too strong? No? Than what does it have with this discussion, you know, the one that is about the TvZ of today?
Well I'm trying to discuss why not to revert the nerf a bit, so it's not relevant as to current state, but rather as a possible fix to infestor/bl.
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On December 24 2012 19:46 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 19:43 Big J wrote:On December 24 2012 19:30 Zarahtra wrote:On December 24 2012 16:56 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something. I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game. Tbh infestors were always a problem. After the snipe nerf, terran has really nothing to contest with infestor BL. The queen buff just a shed a light on how ridiculous the combo truly is(although I'm sure most of us terrans knew that already, so we just won in midgame/lost in lategame). Personally I wish they'd buff snipe back to where its worth it to make ghosts vs BLs and possibly do a very minor nerf somewhere in the opening of 3 base zerg. I just find it stupid that (almost) no matter how ahead you are, (almost) no matter what units you have, it's just crazy to engage infestor BL unless you can get like a full surround. If bl+infestor weren't so good, zerg had some reason to do something else than infestor into BL while playing passive. Prenerf snipe, ghost were supplyefficient vs any zerg unit minus the baneling. Mass ghost countered anything but mass baneling. So you need a few tanks... (5-10) Then you have an unbeatable army. Bl/Inf/Cor is already a problem, as it is really hard to counter. But at least in theory it is possible for Terran. Mass ghost was 2times stronger. (and i do believe todays sniping would be far superior to 2011s) Roaches mate, ghosts are totally useless against them. Large swells of pretty much any cheap unit can overwhelm ghosts.
Roaches are one of the worst units to combat mass ghost with prenerf snipe... You basically attack with the most supplyinefficient unit in the game into the unit with the highest anti-bio damage output.
There are like 3ways to beat those roaches:
1) actually use snipe on roaches. 1roach = 4snipes, so you can kill 2roaches per ghost. Yeah, if you are not a proplayer, you will take some losses - but you will come out victorious
2) snipe all overseers, cloak, a-move
3) Siege your 5-10tanks
Sorry, but ghosts on a-move beat zerglings, hydras, mutas, ITs (ofc snipe makes them extremely more efficient as well)
Ultralisk, Broodlord, Corruptor, Roach, Infestor all got hardcountered by snipe
Leaves the baneling. Which requires a good tank ratio. That's it.
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On December 24 2012 20:12 Big J wrote:
Sorry, but ghosts on a-move beat zerglings, hydras, mutas, ITs (ofc snipe makes them extremely more efficient as well)
Ultralisk, Broodlord, Corruptor, Roach, Infestor all got hardcountered by snipe
Leaves the baneling. Which requires a good tank ratio. That's it.
Your post gave me cancer. At gold league, maybe.
At masters+ ling bling infestor brood lord will DESTROY ghosts even if snipe was +70 dmg. You need planetaries, you need many tanks to stop the imbafestor from landing a fungal.
User was warned for this post
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I just feel like every complain about imbalance, whether it's zerg having too many drones too easily, too many infestors, too much power in midgame eventually leads back to the queen buff that gave them the ability to freely get 3 bases without ever being able to die to an all in. I believe that infestor nerf will not solve the current situation as much as a reversal of queen buff would. Zergs get that many infestors because they have the gas count BECAUSE they were able to get free base with queens, it's not surprising. I never understood why blizzard had to change at that point in time, a balanced, yet dynamic matchup.
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On December 24 2012 20:11 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 19:43 Big J wrote:On December 24 2012 19:30 Zarahtra wrote:On December 24 2012 16:56 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something. I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game. Tbh infestors were always a problem. After the snipe nerf, terran has really nothing to contest with infestor BL. The queen buff just a shed a light on how ridiculous the combo truly is(although I'm sure most of us terrans knew that already, so we just won in midgame/lost in lategame). Personally I wish they'd buff snipe back to where its worth it to make ghosts vs BLs and possibly do a very minor nerf somewhere in the opening of 3 base zerg. I just find it stupid that (almost) no matter how ahead you are, (almost) no matter what units you have, it's just crazy to engage infestor BL unless you can get like a full surround. If bl+infestor weren't so good, zerg had some reason to do something else than infestor into BL while playing passive. Prenerf snipe, ghost were supplyefficient vs any zerg unit minus the baneling. Mass ghost countered anything but mass baneling. So you need a few tanks... (5-10) Then you have an unbeatable army. Bl/Inf/Cor is already a problem, as it is really hard to counter. But at least in theory it is possible for Terran. Mass ghost was 2times stronger. (and i do believe todays sniping would be far superior to 2011s) I must've missed that. We're talking about vikings here, allining before they are out, dropping and never engaging the army or maybe just outplaying the zerg, how can terran counter bl/inf/corr? And I'm not saying go back to 45 dmg snipe, like I've said earlier in the thread, I'd have liked to see fx. 45 dmg -10 vs massive. That takes 7/15 snipes vs bl/ultra up from 6/12. Will the BLs still fall? Probably in most cases, but the remax of the zerg is a lot stronger as more dmg has been taken by the terran and less snipes are around against ultras(aswell as they take more snipes) charging in with the sling/bling behind them. PS. Those "few"(up to 30 supply is hardly few) tanks would have to unsiege in the BL/ghost war, as else the ghosts just get massacred. There fx zergs could add in blings to just brute force the ghosts down. Speaking from experience, if the ghost army goes down once(and even just gets dmg'd decently) it is really hard to get it back up and running, mostly due to time rather than min/gas. Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 20:01 Qwerty85 wrote:
I don't get people who mention how strong ghosts were. Are ghosts still too strong? No? Than what does it have with this discussion, you know, the one that is about the TvZ of today? Well I'm trying to discuss why not to revert the nerf a bit, so it's not relevant as to current state, but rather as a possible fix to infestor/bl.
BC, Raven, Viking.
Tank splash is only 25-50% of 35-44(minus 0-3)damage, ghosts have 100HP. You probably won't lose more than 10ghosts, while sniping 10BLs... quite a great deal. I guess, adding some medivacs and some vikings (so he can't use BLs without Corruptor, so his antighost army is even weaker) would still be a good idea, but meh... whatever, win is win...
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Well, i cant comment on gameplay because i'm not master. But i can comment on statistics because statistics don't lie. On topnotch level, zerg seems too powerfull with a winratio that clearly indentifies the imbalance between races in different stages the game. For me as spectator, its gettin a bit boring watching zerg and im guessing that viewercounts could be less because of the predictability of the game.
2nd, i dont like to nerf races. I rather see other races get stronger. This because u don't get negative feedback and whining of the nerfed race. So blizzard, if ya want to change the game, give the other races better balanced unitcompositions againt the zerg.
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On December 24 2012 19:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 19:30 Zarahtra wrote:On December 24 2012 16:56 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something. I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game. Tbh infestors were always a problem. After the snipe nerf, terran has really nothing to contest with infestor BL. The queen buff just a shed a light on how ridiculous the combo truly is(although I'm sure most of us terrans knew that already, so we just won in midgame/lost in lategame). Personally I wish they'd buff snipe back to where its worth it to make ghosts vs BLs and possibly do a very minor nerf somewhere in the opening of 3 base zerg. I just find it stupid that (almost) no matter how ahead you are, (almost) no matter what units you have, it's just crazy to engage infestor BL unless you can get like a full surround. If bl+infestor weren't so good, zerg had some reason to do something else than infestor into BL while playing passive. Prenerf snipe, ghost were supplyefficient vs any zerg unit minus the baneling. Mass ghost countered anything but mass baneling. So you need a few tanks... (5-10) Then you have an unbeatable army. Bl/Inf/Cor is already a problem, as it is really hard to counter. But at least in theory it is possible for Terran. Mass ghost was 2times stronger. (and i do believe todays sniping would be far superior to 2011s)
Sure mass ghost was two times stronger. Because of that only MVP used this strategy in few games, on other hand we have way weaker bl/infestor combo used in literally in every non mirror Zerg game giving therm 55-60% winratio in both matchups. Strong logic right here.
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On December 24 2012 20:44 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 19:43 Big J wrote:On December 24 2012 19:30 Zarahtra wrote:On December 24 2012 16:56 vthree wrote:On December 24 2012 16:41 EliteSK wrote:
Interesting read and very valid points. Dustin Browder tweeted there'd be more infestor changes coming in the new year so hoping for something. I don't think he specifically said infestors. Again, in TvZ at least, infestors themselves might not even be the core issue since the infestor hasn't really change since 2011. The problem was mainly that their natural counter (ghosts) were nerfed and the early/mid game of zerg was buff so it made droning up and teching to infestors much less risky. Zerg armies with 6-8 infestors are quite manageable. Problem we are facing now is that if the terran army is near max, zergs would have 16 infestors since they can cut so many corners in the early/mid game. Tbh infestors were always a problem. After the snipe nerf, terran has really nothing to contest with infestor BL. The queen buff just a shed a light on how ridiculous the combo truly is(although I'm sure most of us terrans knew that already, so we just won in midgame/lost in lategame). Personally I wish they'd buff snipe back to where its worth it to make ghosts vs BLs and possibly do a very minor nerf somewhere in the opening of 3 base zerg. I just find it stupid that (almost) no matter how ahead you are, (almost) no matter what units you have, it's just crazy to engage infestor BL unless you can get like a full surround. If bl+infestor weren't so good, zerg had some reason to do something else than infestor into BL while playing passive. Prenerf snipe, ghost were supplyefficient vs any zerg unit minus the baneling. Mass ghost countered anything but mass baneling. So you need a few tanks... (5-10) Then you have an unbeatable army. Bl/Inf/Cor is already a problem, as it is really hard to counter. But at least in theory it is possible for Terran. Mass ghost was 2times stronger. (and i do believe todays sniping would be far superior to 2011s) Sure mass ghost was two times stronger. Because of that only MVP used this strategy in few games, on other hand we have way weaker bl/infestor combo used in literally in every non mirror Zerg game giving therm 55-60% winratio in both matchups. Strong logic right here.
I've seen mass ghosts being used 3 or 4 times, all of them by only a single player: MVP. They got nerfed immediately. Zerg has been using BL infestor in all matchups for 9 months with huge success, no nerfs. Crazy.
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Guys, buffing the ghost won't work : Toss also has some huge problems dealing with BL/infestor.
Maybe make easier to transi into air toss ? Dunno how do to this, up+build time is soooo long.
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i dont understand why they wont change fungal to a slow rather than immobilization.. would change so fucking much wouldnt it?
You can keep spreading to not get additional fungal, chain fungal is harder, escaping with dropships with army intact is still possible.. Just overall, the game would change for the better, create more awesome situations and battles.
edit: psionic being immune to fungal is like the most retarded change ever
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On December 24 2012 21:06 Exells wrote:
Guys, buffing the ghost won't work : Toss also has some huge problems dealing with BL/infestor.
Maybe make easier to transi into air toss ? Dunno how do to this, up+build time is soooo long.
The problem is just that protoss would then need a nerf in the midgame. Atleast from what I can gather, toss is pretty much in the same situation terran was in before queen buff. Win midgame, loose lategame(generally speaking obviously). PvZ win rates are pretty equal(even toss a bit ahead), so if you're going to make toss and zerg equal lategame(and therefore remove a lopsided win rate time for zerg) you'd need to equal midgame too(removing a lopsided win rate time for toss).
Admittedly Z lategame nerf will cause Z midgame to change since Z has less reason to be as greedy(or possibly require zerg to be more greedy, such as was the effect of the queen buff for terran), but it's hard to say though.
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On December 24 2012 21:28 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 21:06 Exells wrote:
Guys, buffing the ghost won't work : Toss also has some huge problems dealing with BL/infestor.
Maybe make easier to transi into air toss ? Dunno how do to this, up+build time is soooo long. The problem is just that protoss would then need a nerf in the midgame. Atleast from what I can gather, toss is pretty much in the same situation terran was in before queen buff. Win midgame, loose lategame(generally speaking obviously). PvZ win rates are pretty equal(even toss a bit ahead), so if you're going to make toss and zerg equal lategame(and therefore remove a lopsided win rate time for zerg) you'd need to equal midgame too(removing a lopsided win rate time for toss). Admittedly Z lategame nerf will cause Z midgame to change since Z has less reason to be as greedy(or possibly require zerg to be more greedy, such as was the effect of the queen buff for terran), but it's hard to say though.
Toss winrate are high cause of Immortal/sentry all-in (almost one game out of three). When Zergs gonna find the answer (and they will), winrates gonna fall.
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On December 24 2012 21:28 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 21:06 Exells wrote:
Guys, buffing the ghost won't work : Toss also has some huge problems dealing with BL/infestor.
Maybe make easier to transi into air toss ? Dunno how do to this, up+build time is soooo long. The problem is just that protoss would then need a nerf in the midgame. Atleast from what I can gather, toss is pretty much in the same situation terran was in before queen buff. Win midgame, loose lategame(generally speaking obviously). PvZ win rates are pretty equal(even toss a bit ahead), so if you're going to make toss and zerg equal lategame(and therefore remove a lopsided win rate time for zerg) you'd need to equal midgame too(removing a lopsided win rate time for toss). Admittedly Z lategame nerf will cause Z midgame to change since Z has less reason to be as greedy(or possibly require zerg to be more greedy, such as was the effect of the queen buff for terran), but it's hard to say though.
No, terran used to be able to do damage with a timing and win in the lategame... now it's more like for terran, lose midgame or lose lategame OR if you're a much better player and you already survived midgame and you don't get unlucky, then you can win lategame.
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Revert Queen range buff, and everything changes back to normal.
The biggest problem with TvZ is creep imo. A lot of you noobs will say "LOL CREEP? Creep can't even attack!" The fact is, the extreme speed and surface area with which creep is able to be spread now makes for incredibly weak early game bio aggression by T.
Every single push by the terran soon after will be slowed by the necessity to clear out the tens, if not hundreds of creep tumors. It's suicide to unsiege while on creep, and leapfrogging tanks takes VERY long. So you have 2 options, clear the creep, or leapfrog.
Both of these options buy what the zerg thrives off of most: Time. The more time the zerg has to prepare for the attack, the more the zerg will crush the attack, the more the zerg will have larva for a follow up counter, etc.
All of this has snowballed because reactor hellion expand no longer can kill off queens, creep.
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Brings up some valid points! Thanks for the post
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I feel TvZ's issues kind of get exaggerated a lot. It's rigged for zerg, I don't think we can argue against that, but I cannot actually point out one particular issue that is THE issue.
When I start thinking about this issue my mind just starts listing everything it hates about Zerg (creep, queens, droooooooooooooooones, nitro pack overlords, infestors having no actual weaknesses only tremendous strengths, their huge amount of viable builds many of which just get to build order win you, late game and all that entails and how easy it is to fall massively behind from something small slipping by and yet it never feels like I can do the same to them) but I cannot come to a conclusive 'this is what needs to be fixed' without feeling like most of these issues aren't so bad in themselves and that as soon as you change any one of them the rest don't seem so bad.
So just nerf all of them because I'm a super selfish terran who wants to see the glory days of GomTvT return, obviously.
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1. Bring Queen range down to 3,5.
2. Make Fungal a projectile
1: You can still make 6 queens, now you just have to actually micro them to stop hellions. I don't think anyone likes the fact that the creep-spreading injecting unit is also a spine-crawler. This change shouldn't affect PvZ or ZvZ too much, since the queen is rarely used for ground defense.
2: The projectile is really cool in hots beta, and I think making fungal a projectile would make for more interesting games, both for the viewers and the players as well. It would raise the skill-cap of Z, which would be very welcome, and you could also see the snotbombs flying, which would make for more interesting viewing experiences, since at least I find that instant cast fungals are boring to watch.
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What bothers me the most is everyone complains about Zerg being broken/overpowered Blizzard takes a year to address the issue. Fuck Blizzard tbh
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On December 24 2012 23:11 arena_say_what wrote:
What bothers me the most is everyone complains about Zerg being broken/overpowered Blizzard takes a year to address the issue. Fuck Blizzard tbh
Yeah, how many months did it take to nerf snipe, how many weeks did it take to fix 5 rax reaper, and how many days until the blue flame nerf went live?
They sure do love taking time with gerg
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On December 24 2012 21:14 gosublade wrote:
i dont understand why they wont change fungal to a slow rather than immobilization.. would change so fucking much wouldnt it?
You can keep spreading to not get additional fungal, chain fungal is harder, escaping with dropships with army intact is still possible.. Just overall, the game would change for the better, create more awesome situations and battles.
edit: psionic being immune to fungal is like the most retarded change ever
From what DB has said in interviews, they tried turning it into a slow and it had minimal effect because chaining the fungles together was still possible. That is the real issue with fungle growth, that it is possible to chain fungles together, the root only makes that more possible. Storm, which does far more damage, is less of a problem because units can avoid it, but no battle lasts long enough for someone to chain storms on a specific location and players actively dodge storms.
I don’t know if a projectile will solve the problem, because the root still exists and any unit hit by the fungle is still rooted. I would rather they focus on the root and maybe make it shorter than length of fungle. If the root was 2 or 1 second, it would allow the units to escape before the next fungle was chained. At one second or less, the root would serve more to chance out the units previous action, rather than stop it is place forever.
In short, if fungle is going to stop unit movement, units need to be able to move again before the next fungle can be applied. Fungle as a half a second interrupt is far more intresting than fungle as a 4 second root.
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On December 24 2012 23:30 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 23:11 arena_say_what wrote:
What bothers me the most is everyone complains about Zerg being broken/overpowered Blizzard takes a year to address the issue. Fuck Blizzard tbh Yeah, how many months did it take to nerf snipe, how many weeks did it take to fix 5 rax reaper, and how many days until the blue flame nerf went live? They sure do love taking time with gerg
The funny part is that they nerfed those after 1 or 2 events where they were used and the community whined that Blizzard was acting to quickly and should let the players figure it out. They do that with the infestor(though they waited way to long) and we grip that they did not act fast enough.
To be clear though, blue flame was really dumb before the nerf. Two of the stupid things could destroy unlimited workers in a single shot.
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I was watching Thorzain play against a zerg and while Thorzain nicely killed the infestor-corruptor-brood lord army of his opponent, the zerg rapidly switched to ultralisks. Having read a few conversations on the topic of how hard it is for terrans to switch between tech trees, I thought that it would be interesting for Blizzard to allow for double marauder/tank production from buildings with reactors. This would allow terrans to also rapidly tech switch and rebuild their armies, resolving a key problem terrans have in the late game. Such an upgrade could be purchased or it could possibly be automatically done if you build a fusion core. This would be interesting as it would also open the potential for BCs, but also match well with the proposed HOTS changes, like how there will be the medivac speed boost upgrade in the fusion core.
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On December 25 2012 00:07 Dr.Sin wrote:
I was watching Thorzain play against a zerg and while Thorzain nicely killed the infestor-corruptor-brood lord army of his opponent, the zerg rapidly switched to ultralisks. Having read a few conversations on the topic of how hard it is for terrans to switch between tech trees, I thought that it would be interesting for Blizzard to allow for double marauder/tank production from buildings with reactors. This would allow terrans to also rapidly tech switch and rebuild their armies, resolving a key problem terrans have in the late game. Such an upgrade could be purchased or it could possibly be automatically done if you build a fusion core. This would be interesting as it would also open the potential for BCs, but also match well with the proposed HOTS changes, like how there will be the medivac speed boost upgrade in the fusion core.
An upgrade that would allow you to transform your reactors and tech labs into tech reactors from the WoL campaign?. Interesting.
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On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:
120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns
if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition?
I don't laugh out loud often, but this was hilarious...
"the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings..."
Are you serious dude? If we had five clones of MVP microing the Terran army at the same time, there's no way they could split the marines/ghosts and snipe even a single baneling, let alone "snipe most of the banelings".
In theory, yes... if I wrote a computer program that could interface with SC2, it could stutter step each individual marine into a perfect split, while also stutter step splitting every ghost at the same time and sniping the closest baneling to a Terran unit, and the Terran would win that battle... So, yeah, you must be correct.
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On December 25 2012 00:14 Fullback wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 00:07 Dr.Sin wrote:
I was watching Thorzain play against a zerg and while Thorzain nicely killed the infestor-corruptor-brood lord army of his opponent, the zerg rapidly switched to ultralisks. Having read a few conversations on the topic of how hard it is for terrans to switch between tech trees, I thought that it would be interesting for Blizzard to allow for double marauder/tank production from buildings with reactors. This would allow terrans to also rapidly tech switch and rebuild their armies, resolving a key problem terrans have in the late game. Such an upgrade could be purchased or it could possibly be automatically done if you build a fusion core. This would be interesting as it would also open the potential for BCs, but also match well with the proposed HOTS changes, like how there will be the medivac speed boost upgrade in the fusion core. An upgrade that would allow you to transform your reactors and tech labs into tech reactors from the WoL campaign?. Interesting.
This is imo a great idea, but i'm a little scared of the implication in late game TvP. Because 2xghosts production ...
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On December 24 2012 21:49 ButtCraft wrote:
Revert Queen range buff, and everything changes back to normal.
The biggest problem with TvZ is creep imo. A lot of you noobs will say "LOL CREEP? Creep can't even attack!" The fact is, the extreme speed and surface area with which creep is able to be spread now makes for incredibly weak early game bio aggression by T.
Every single push by the terran soon after will be slowed by the necessity to clear out the tens, if not hundreds of creep tumors. It's suicide to unsiege while on creep, and leapfrogging tanks takes VERY long. So you have 2 options, clear the creep, or leapfrog.
Both of these options buy what the zerg thrives off of most: Time. The more time the zerg has to prepare for the attack, the more the zerg will crush the attack, the more the zerg will have larva for a follow up counter, etc.
All of this has snowballed because reactor hellion expand no longer can kill off queens, creep.
I completly agree with this. What the queen patch has really done, is giving zerg the ability to spread creep (almost) as far as they like. And pushing onto creep as terran is pretty much suicide since you rely on tanks so much. So terrans really need to stay on top of clearing out zergs creep every chance they get, and if they fail to do so they wont have the ability to end the game after having won a huge engagement. Simply because creep is in the way of them
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Nebbish! <3
I currently agree and believe the main problem is how unforgivable Terran currently is and the fact that it is difficult to punish Zerg greed.
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On December 25 2012 00:18 barwick11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:
120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns
if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? I don't laugh out loud often, but this was hilarious... "the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings..." Are you serious dude? If we had five clones of MVP microing the Terran army at the same time, there's no way they could split the marines/ghosts and snipe even a single baneling, let alone "snipe most of the banelings". In theory, yes... if I wrote a computer program that could interface with SC2, it could stutter step each individual marine into a perfect split, while also stutter step splitting every ghost at the same time and sniping the closest baneling to a Terran unit, and the Terran would win that battle... So, yeah, you must be correct.
If you bind your mouse button to the mouse wheel, you can snipe incredibly fast. One might label this as cheat, but there would be no way to prevent this online/on ladder.
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All caster units in SC2 need a ton of work.
Blizzard has really lost creativity with the caster units. I hope HOTS will help that somewhat.
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On December 25 2012 00:14 Fullback wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 00:07 Dr.Sin wrote:
I was watching Thorzain play against a zerg and while Thorzain nicely killed the infestor-corruptor-brood lord army of his opponent, the zerg rapidly switched to ultralisks. Having read a few conversations on the topic of how hard it is for terrans to switch between tech trees, I thought that it would be interesting for Blizzard to allow for double marauder/tank production from buildings with reactors. This would allow terrans to also rapidly tech switch and rebuild their armies, resolving a key problem terrans have in the late game. Such an upgrade could be purchased or it could possibly be automatically done if you build a fusion core. This would be interesting as it would also open the potential for BCs, but also match well with the proposed HOTS changes, like how there will be the medivac speed boost upgrade in the fusion core. An upgrade that would allow you to transform your reactors and tech labs into tech reactors from the WoL campaign?. Interesting.
Would have to be an upgrade at the armory that you need fusion core for I think. Like, as late game as it gets. Still, it's an idea.
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Zergs too easy and terrans too hard, infestors are too good for their cost and skills, larvae mechanics make tech switches hard to kill, creep makes zergs too mobile, smart AI is better for zerg than for terran...etc etc etc
There are way too many problems with Terran, let alone the TvZ matchup. It's impossible to balance after Blizzard rushed WoL into production and said "hey, your predecessor was awesome for esports, this brand new game must be good for esports too!"
And because of that pressure with a brand new game, they balanced it using a MOBA approach (multiple patches in a short time span) rather than a true RTS approach where you take your time and carefully think out the implications of every change and their combined effects.
Blizz completely fucked up the balance of this game. There is no one problem, and there is no one solution. Now, almost 2 years later, after multiple patches, you expect Blizzard to clean up this mess? There are way too many variables, too many permutations and combinations to calculate in order to fix this game.
All of these proposals are what Blizzard should've thought of instead of haphazardly using the nerf gun after every major event.
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On December 25 2012 01:19 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 00:18 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:
120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns
if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? I don't laugh out loud often, but this was hilarious... "the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings..." Are you serious dude? If we had five clones of MVP microing the Terran army at the same time, there's no way they could split the marines/ghosts and snipe even a single baneling, let alone "snipe most of the banelings". In theory, yes... if I wrote a computer program that could interface with SC2, it could stutter step each individual marine into a perfect split, while also stutter step splitting every ghost at the same time and sniping the closest baneling to a Terran unit, and the Terran would win that battle... So, yeah, you must be correct. If you bind your mouse button to the mouse wheel, you can snipe incredibly fast. One might label this as cheat, but there would be no way to prevent this online/on ladder.
Well, you have the same problem with ITs... I have played quite a few games as T and as Z against Zerg opponents who had miracolous 1500 APM when throwing them and who could perfectly spend all their energy at once - way better than any progamer does...
But I see what you mean. I think blizzard underestimated the speed+accuracy+queue tricks progamers would develop with snipe and ITs in direct combats, that's why those low cost spam abilities both have gotten so out of hand in any scenario where they were/are cost- or supplyefficient.
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On December 25 2012 01:26 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 00:14 Fullback wrote:On December 25 2012 00:07 Dr.Sin wrote:
I was watching Thorzain play against a zerg and while Thorzain nicely killed the infestor-corruptor-brood lord army of his opponent, the zerg rapidly switched to ultralisks. Having read a few conversations on the topic of how hard it is for terrans to switch between tech trees, I thought that it would be interesting for Blizzard to allow for double marauder/tank production from buildings with reactors. This would allow terrans to also rapidly tech switch and rebuild their armies, resolving a key problem terrans have in the late game. Such an upgrade could be purchased or it could possibly be automatically done if you build a fusion core. This would be interesting as it would also open the potential for BCs, but also match well with the proposed HOTS changes, like how there will be the medivac speed boost upgrade in the fusion core. An upgrade that would allow you to transform your reactors and tech labs into tech reactors from the WoL campaign?. Interesting. Would have to be an upgrade at the armory that you need fusion core for I think. Like, as late game as it gets. Still, it's an idea.
A lot of the campaign stuff would be very interesting to see in multiplayer, within reason.
Just having upgrades in fusion core, infestation pit or fleet beacon seems pretty awesome in itself.
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On December 24 2012 23:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 21:14 gosublade wrote:
i dont understand why they wont change fungal to a slow rather than immobilization.. would change so fucking much wouldnt it?
You can keep spreading to not get additional fungal, chain fungal is harder, escaping with dropships with army intact is still possible.. Just overall, the game would change for the better, create more awesome situations and battles.
edit: psionic being immune to fungal is like the most retarded change ever From what DB has said in interviews, they tried turning it into a slow and it had minimal effect because chaining the fungles together was still possible. That is the real issue with fungle growth, that it is possible to chain fungles together, the root only makes that more possible. Storm, which does far more damage, is less of a problem because units can avoid it, but no battle lasts long enough for someone to chain storms on a specific location and players actively dodge storms. I don’t know if a projectile will solve the problem, because the root still exists and any unit hit by the fungle is still rooted. I would rather they focus on the root and maybe make it shorter than length of fungle. If the root was 2 or 1 second, it would allow the units to escape before the next fungle was chained. At one second or less, the root would serve more to chance out the units previous action, rather than stop it is place forever. In short, if fungle is going to stop unit movement, units need to be able to move again before the next fungle can be applied. Fungle as a half a second interrupt is far more intresting than fungle as a 4 second root.
First of all, dropships and dropping would have a semi-decent chance of getting away, as apposed to 0 chance right now. 1 dropship filled with mm and losing it is np, but wanting to drop with 2-3 medivacs filled, and then possibly losing all of them because of a silly spell and being able to do nothing about it is hard to get on board with.
When sieging zerg expo or 3rd and fungaled, you run back enough with rines into siege line(rines are like insanely fast with stim), you either stop getting chain fungaled, infestors are gonna get tank shots or zerg is gonna have to fight out of position. You can also split more, which means infs need to use more fungals to get all rines. Can't imagine it not having a semi-big style change in the long run..
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On December 25 2012 01:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 01:19 Sandermatt wrote:On December 25 2012 00:18 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:
120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns
if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? I don't laugh out loud often, but this was hilarious... "the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings..." Are you serious dude? If we had five clones of MVP microing the Terran army at the same time, there's no way they could split the marines/ghosts and snipe even a single baneling, let alone "snipe most of the banelings". In theory, yes... if I wrote a computer program that could interface with SC2, it could stutter step each individual marine into a perfect split, while also stutter step splitting every ghost at the same time and sniping the closest baneling to a Terran unit, and the Terran would win that battle... So, yeah, you must be correct. If you bind your mouse button to the mouse wheel, you can snipe incredibly fast. One might label this as cheat, but there would be no way to prevent this online/on ladder. Well, you have the same problem with ITs... I have played quite a few games as T and as Z against Zerg opponents who had miracolous 1500 APM when throwing them and who could perfectly spend all their energy at once - way better than any progamer does... But I see what you mean. I think blizzard underestimated the speed+accuracy+queue tricks progamers would develop with snipe and ITs in direct combats, that's why those low cost spam abilities both have gotten so out of hand in any scenario where they were/are cost- or supplyefficient.
As far as I know, you can't bind anything to the center mouse button scroll unless you use a hack.
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zergs too easy and terrans too hard, infestors are too good for their cost and skills, larvae mechanics make tech switches hard to kill, creep makes zergs too mobile, smart AI is better for zerg than for terran...etc etc etc
Funny cause when the game first came out Terran was the "easiest" and Zerg much harder.
I think blizzard failed to anticipate how much better Zerg players would get once they figured out all the queen mechanics, quit missing injects, etc.
All races are tough to play, Zerg isn't easy and Terran isn't all the sudden much harder. Terran just lacks the late game tools.
People demanded longer macro games, now they got that and are unhappy with the result. What people do need to realize is that it is a pretty razor thin edge with the infestor. If they nerf to much Zerg all the sudden cant compete late game. That's the problem with 1 unit being so critical.
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On December 25 2012 01:16 Ordien wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 21:49 ButtCraft wrote:
Revert Queen range buff, and everything changes back to normal.
The biggest problem with TvZ is creep imo. A lot of you noobs will say "LOL CREEP? Creep can't even attack!" The fact is, the extreme speed and surface area with which creep is able to be spread now makes for incredibly weak early game bio aggression by T.
Every single push by the terran soon after will be slowed by the necessity to clear out the tens, if not hundreds of creep tumors. It's suicide to unsiege while on creep, and leapfrogging tanks takes VERY long. So you have 2 options, clear the creep, or leapfrog.
Both of these options buy what the zerg thrives off of most: Time. The more time the zerg has to prepare for the attack, the more the zerg will crush the attack, the more the zerg will have larva for a follow up counter, etc.
All of this has snowballed because reactor hellion expand no longer can kill off queens, creep. I completly agree with this. What the queen patch has really done, is giving zerg the ability to spread creep (almost) as far as they like. And pushing onto creep as terran is pretty much suicide since you rely on tanks so much. So terrans really need to stay on top of clearing out zergs creep every chance they get, and if they fail to do so they wont have the ability to end the game after having won a huge engagement. Simply because creep is in the way of them
The funny thing is. Hellions never really denied creep if the zerg didn't want them to. The zerg could always throw down a roach warren and make 3-4 roaches which would easily hold off 8 hellions. Why didn't they do this? Because it slowed their eco and tech. 5 drones (1 for roach warren) and resources is huge in the early game.
This is the same reason why zergs suggesting that terrans can use the banshee/raven combo for creep clearing. They don't take into account that the terran would have to delay medivacs (less energy built up), make an extra tech lab, delay tech/upgrades in order to get them out. RTS is all about trade offs. It is just not feasible for terrans because you get way behind on everything else just to deny creep. Not to mention banshee + raven (with PDD) would be available way after 4 hellions.
So please, when you theorycraft and said this player should have X number of Y units. Please also suggest which unit they shouldn't have build (equal resources and build time) and also that if they didn't build those units, would they be vulnerable to a timing / pressure from the opposition.
For example, let say in TvP, you say that T would have won if you had 5 BCs in his army. Then you need to take out X medivacs/vikings. Also, when making the 5 BCs (without those medivacs and vikings), how would they hold off a push from the P.
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On December 05 2012 11:20 DaNkS wrote:
this is funny cuz protoss isnt as good as terran and zerg as well i think toss needs a buff
What is this sage? You read the entire post/ analysis in three minutes?
"This is" -- are you talking about the post you may have partially skimmed?
sagesagesagesagesage
The OP was really indepth and I agree with most points, I found the attention-as-resource section refreshing because that idea never gets enough *cough* attention
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On December 25 2012 02:08 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote + zergs too easy and terrans too hard, infestors are too good for their cost and skills, larvae mechanics make tech switches hard to kill, creep makes zergs too mobile, smart AI is better for zerg than for terran...etc etc etc Funny cause when the game first came out Terran was the "easiest" and Zerg much harder. I think blizzard failed to anticipate how much better Zerg players would get once they figured out all the queen mechanics, quit missing injects, etc. All races are tough to play, Zerg isn't easy and Terran isn't all the sudden much harder. Terran just lacks the late game tools. People demanded longer macro games, now they got that and are unhappy with the result. What people do need to realize is that it is a pretty razor thin edge with the infestor. If they nerf to much Zerg all the sudden cant compete late game. That's the problem with 1 unit being so critical.
Maps also play a big factor. They are so big now that zerg can start adding units when they see terrans leave their base. OLs are also given 'free' spots to park which sees pretty much everything. You will notice that players like MKP get called out for playing 'blind' and not scouting (with P as well). But how often do you hear that a zerg didn't scout the Terran? Why? Because a lot of the maps have 'safe' spots where you can park OLs and it is not possible to deny scouting until at least vikings are out. And these safe spots give a great view of the entrance to the natural (when army is moving out) and also gases/expansion timings.
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Infestors aren't the only reason this match up has become a complete mess (along with the rest of the game). It's because they removed any and all aggressive openers for Terran. Terran was never meant to sit around passively and mass up a 200 pop army. You're SUPPOSED to cheese that Zerg that blindly hatches first every game. You're supposed to open with 11/11 rax if you want to play a bio style. You're supposed to open with 1/1/1 aggression if you want to play a mech based style. You're supposed to punish Zergs for making only drones. Now that they've molded the game around passive greedy styles the game is 100 percent broken in the balance and playability department.
This game is not nearly as hard as BW in the macro department, it doesn't take any skill to sit on your ass and just focus 100 percent on base management. I believe the intention for SC2 was for everyone to be fighting very very early on and only the most evenly matched opponents would actually make it to the mid or late game. This game is boring to play AND to watch, way to go balance team.
My point is, nerfing the infestor won't fix the actual problem with this game and this match up, all the build orders that this game was originally balanced around have been nerfed or removed. It's a mess and hopefully they've learned from their mistakes and don't repeat them with HoTS.
Edit: Yes I do know this will piss David Kim and his balance team off but idc, I don't play this game anymore, you can't harass me on the ladder now :D. I've moved onto LoL and Dota 2.
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On December 25 2012 01:33 imBLIND wrote:
Zergs too easy and terrans too hard, infestors are too good for their cost and skills, larvae mechanics make tech switches hard to kill, creep makes zergs too mobile, smart AI is better for zerg than for terran...etc etc etc
There are way too many problems with Terran, let alone the TvZ matchup. It's impossible to balance after Blizzard rushed WoL into production and said "hey, your predecessor was awesome for esports, this brand new game must be good for esports too!"
And because of that pressure with a brand new game, they balanced it using a MOBA approach (multiple patches in a short time span) rather than a true RTS approach where you take your time and carefully think out the implications of every change and their combined effects.
Blizz completely fucked up the balance of this game. There is no one problem, and there is no one solution. Now, almost 2 years later, after multiple patches, you expect Blizzard to clean up this mess? There are way too many variables, too many permutations and combinations to calculate in order to fix this game.
All of these proposals are what Blizzard should've thought of instead of haphazardly using the nerf gun after every major event.
I agree with this.
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Beautiful artikel about some broken things about that game.
I share your opinion and i think you did a very good job showing some problems with the balance.
However, i hope Blizzard is working enough on these problems and lets hope HotS will bring some new hope for terrans
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Holy crap do we really need another thread whining about Zerg? This is all promoting a terrible mentality within the community. Sorry to break it to you egotistical whiners but none of you are great, none of you are pro and none of you are performing well lately in tournaments. At the pro level there might be a tiny advantage because the Zergs are so perfect in execution but whining at any other level is even worse. Its not easy to pull this stuff off or every Z would be in top masters or GM. Instead we see Zergs still all across the leagues like every other race.
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On December 25 2012 03:02 sCCrooked wrote:
Holy crap do we really need another thread whining about Zerg? This is all promoting a terrible mentality within the community. Sorry to break it to you egotistical whiners but none of you are great, none of you are pro and none of you are performing well lately in tournaments. At the pro level there might be a tiny advantage because the Zergs are so perfect in execution but whining at any other level is even worse. Its not easy to pull this stuff off or every Z would be in top masters or GM. Instead we see Zergs still all across the leagues like every other race.
Yes, we are all whining here because we want to do better on ladder... Did it occur to you that maybe we enjoy watching sc2 as an eSports and would like to see racial balance for the top pros?
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On December 25 2012 03:13 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 03:02 sCCrooked wrote:
Holy crap do we really need another thread whining about Zerg? This is all promoting a terrible mentality within the community. Sorry to break it to you egotistical whiners but none of you are great, none of you are pro and none of you are performing well lately in tournaments. At the pro level there might be a tiny advantage because the Zergs are so perfect in execution but whining at any other level is even worse. Its not easy to pull this stuff off or every Z would be in top masters or GM. Instead we see Zergs still all across the leagues like every other race. Yes, we are all whining here because we want to do better on ladder... Did it occur to you that maybe we enjoy watching sc2 as an eSports and would like to see racial balance for the top pros?
Did it occur to any of you simple-minded folk that whining about everything just a few weeks after new patches are being applied and begging for massive swings like changing fungal's root or DoT (very huge swing if you disagree with this in even the slightest, you do not understand this game at all) is incredibly counter-intuitive?
Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about.
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Terrans haven't even tried to figure stuff out yet, I still see Terrans not building ravens to counter the burrowed infestor etc, Terrans should at least try and figure stuff out before screaming for a nerf
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On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 03:13 vthree wrote:On December 25 2012 03:02 sCCrooked wrote:
Holy crap do we really need another thread whining about Zerg? This is all promoting a terrible mentality within the community. Sorry to break it to you egotistical whiners but none of you are great, none of you are pro and none of you are performing well lately in tournaments. At the pro level there might be a tiny advantage because the Zergs are so perfect in execution but whining at any other level is even worse. Its not easy to pull this stuff off or every Z would be in top masters or GM. Instead we see Zergs still all across the leagues like every other race. Yes, we are all whining here because we want to do better on ladder... Did it occur to you that maybe we enjoy watching sc2 as an eSports and would like to see racial balance for the top pros? Did it occur to any of you simple-minded folk that whining about everything just a few weeks after new patches are being applied and begging for massive swings like changing fungal's root or DoT ( very huge swing if you disagree with this in even the slightest, you do not understand this game at all) is incredibly counter-intuitive? Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about.
Too much hypocrisy in your post. I've loved the way the meta evolved by giving +2 range to queen while nerfing terran. Since then, no terran has actually been really successful for a decent amount of time at the top level while you see a ton of zergs winning. I agree that whining right after a patch is not the best, but it is understandable that people are not pleased with the current state of the game.
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On December 25 2012 03:58 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote:On December 25 2012 03:13 vthree wrote:On December 25 2012 03:02 sCCrooked wrote:
Holy crap do we really need another thread whining about Zerg? This is all promoting a terrible mentality within the community. Sorry to break it to you egotistical whiners but none of you are great, none of you are pro and none of you are performing well lately in tournaments. At the pro level there might be a tiny advantage because the Zergs are so perfect in execution but whining at any other level is even worse. Its not easy to pull this stuff off or every Z would be in top masters or GM. Instead we see Zergs still all across the leagues like every other race. Yes, we are all whining here because we want to do better on ladder... Did it occur to you that maybe we enjoy watching sc2 as an eSports and would like to see racial balance for the top pros? Did it occur to any of you simple-minded folk that whining about everything just a few weeks after new patches are being applied and begging for massive swings like changing fungal's root or DoT ( very huge swing if you disagree with this in even the slightest, you do not understand this game at all) is incredibly counter-intuitive? Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about. Oh, so you'd be in favour of Blizzard bringing back 5rax reaper so zerg players could figure it out?
No because that analogy doesn't work. As any intelligent person would clearly see, back then the game still needed some radical fixes to things like roaches and reaper/bunker combos. 2-3 years later though, the game is starting to look closer to balanced than it was back then so we're moving in the right direction.
The whining that goes on lately is just laughable though. I don't even get gg anymore at the end of games, I get bm'd if I happened to random Zerg that time. Sorry guys but Zerg just isn't that easy or you would all have switched to Z and been top GMs getting paid to play this game by now.
Too much hypocrisy in your post
You better go learn what hypocrisy means before you embarrass yourself through misusing it again.
However I can see why at the top level its becoming stale, with HotS coming out soon all this will be completely over-written and its pointless to spread such a bad mentality with misinformation like this. Even if a handful of you are really here just about the pro scene, there's 10 for every 1 of you who uses this kind of reasoning or thread to make themselves feel better about ladder and how they don't have to worry about their "good or GM level macro/micro" because Z is just OP or something ridiculous. There's no reasonable person out there who wouldn't see this kind of racial hate-mongering as positive or good.
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On December 25 2012 03:13 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 03:02 sCCrooked wrote:
Holy crap do we really need another thread whining about Zerg? This is all promoting a terrible mentality within the community. Sorry to break it to you egotistical whiners but none of you are great, none of you are pro and none of you are performing well lately in tournaments. At the pro level there might be a tiny advantage because the Zergs are so perfect in execution but whining at any other level is even worse. Its not easy to pull this stuff off or every Z would be in top masters or GM. Instead we see Zergs still all across the leagues like every other race. Yes, we are all whining here because we want to do better on ladder... Did it occur to you that maybe we enjoy watching sc2 as an eSports and would like to see racial balance for the top pros?
most people are using this as a balance whine and to make themselves feel better about losses on ladder
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There is also the issue of balancing the game for pure results and balancing the game in a way that is more viewer friendly.
Blizzard can't decide it seems which they want, bouncing back and forth between the two. The community can't seem to decide either, they hate short games and want macro games but now all these long macro games on big maps are boring.
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On December 25 2012 01:04 Exells wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 00:14 Fullback wrote:On December 25 2012 00:07 Dr.Sin wrote:
I was watching Thorzain play against a zerg and while Thorzain nicely killed the infestor-corruptor-brood lord army of his opponent, the zerg rapidly switched to ultralisks. Having read a few conversations on the topic of how hard it is for terrans to switch between tech trees, I thought that it would be interesting for Blizzard to allow for double marauder/tank production from buildings with reactors. This would allow terrans to also rapidly tech switch and rebuild their armies, resolving a key problem terrans have in the late game. Such an upgrade could be purchased or it could possibly be automatically done if you build a fusion core. This would be interesting as it would also open the potential for BCs, but also match well with the proposed HOTS changes, like how there will be the medivac speed boost upgrade in the fusion core. An upgrade that would allow you to transform your reactors and tech labs into tech reactors from the WoL campaign?. Interesting. This is imo a great idea, but i'm a little scared of the implication in late game TvP. Because 2xghosts production ...
You bring up a good question regarding double ghost production. I think for TvP it would not be such a huge issue as Terrans already have marauder heavy armies, so their bases are already geared towards supporting ghost production. If you have 6 barracks with tech labs, just pumping ghosts 6 at a time requires a tremendous investment.
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On December 25 2012 04:00 mememolly wrote:
Terrans haven't even tried to figure stuff out yet, I still see Terrans not building ravens to counter the burrowed infestor etc, Terrans should at least try and figure stuff out before screaming for a nerf
Holy shit, is this guy for real? Reading this hurts my brain.
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On December 25 2012 04:00 mememolly wrote:
Terrans haven't even tried to figure stuff out yet, I still see Terrans not building ravens to counter the burrowed infestor etc, Terrans should at least try and figure stuff out before screaming for a nerf
You're obviously trolling, but this comment is automatically nullified by the fact that zerg was massively buffed for no reason (queen range to 5 while TvZ winrates were 50-50). I remember zergs like idra "screaming for a nerf" back then. OL speed was a great and resonable buff, queen range was not.
Just to point something out: When was the last time you saw zergs go for drop play against terran? I'd like to see that sometime.
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On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 03:13 vthree wrote:On December 25 2012 03:02 sCCrooked wrote:
Holy crap do we really need another thread whining about Zerg? This is all promoting a terrible mentality within the community. Sorry to break it to you egotistical whiners but none of you are great, none of you are pro and none of you are performing well lately in tournaments. At the pro level there might be a tiny advantage because the Zergs are so perfect in execution but whining at any other level is even worse. Its not easy to pull this stuff off or every Z would be in top masters or GM. Instead we see Zergs still all across the leagues like every other race. Yes, we are all whining here because we want to do better on ladder... Did it occur to you that maybe we enjoy watching sc2 as an eSports and would like to see racial balance for the top pros? Did it occur to any of you simple-minded folk that whining about everything just a few weeks after new patches are being applied and begging for massive swings like changing fungal's root or DoT ( very huge swing if you disagree with this in even the slightest, you do not understand this game at all) is incredibly counter-intuitive? Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about.
Any intelligent person can look at the game now and tell you that it's broken.
I've had plenty of time playing with all 3 races. It took me much longer to get to Masters with Terran than it did for me to get there with Protoss or Zerg, Zerg being the easiest.
We don't all switch to Zerg because if we did, the game would always be ZvZzzzz. That's extremely boring.
No, GM players are still only the top 200 players on each server, not all of us could possibly be GM players just by switching to Zerg.
And yes, you're right - the metagame is exciting to watch when it's developed by players. But those of us who are not happy with the patch don't enjoy it when Blizzard decides to develop the metagame for us in a way that breaks the game.
Pre-queen and ovie patch, the metagame was developing just fine. Post-queen and ovie patch, it's been broken. And changing the amount of HP on infested terran eggs and the up-front cost of upgrading Seeker missles does not do anything to fix the problems that Blizzard created by destroying the metagame.
Maybe if you'd realize we're not "whining" and are simply "suggesting" how to make the game better, you'd be able to help make Sc2 a better game. Unfortunately, complaining about the suggestions of others isn't getting us anywhere.
If you're going to consider these types of threads from Terran and Protoss to be "whining", please remember that it was the Zerg "whining" of low level players that convinced Blizzard to break their previously balanced game in the first place.
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On December 25 2012 04:11 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 04:05 sCCrooked wrote:On December 25 2012 03:58 Scrubwave wrote:On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote:On December 25 2012 03:13 vthree wrote:On December 25 2012 03:02 sCCrooked wrote:
Holy crap do we really need another thread whining about Zerg? This is all promoting a terrible mentality within the community. Sorry to break it to you egotistical whiners but none of you are great, none of you are pro and none of you are performing well lately in tournaments. At the pro level there might be a tiny advantage because the Zergs are so perfect in execution but whining at any other level is even worse. Its not easy to pull this stuff off or every Z would be in top masters or GM. Instead we see Zergs still all across the leagues like every other race. Yes, we are all whining here because we want to do better on ladder... Did it occur to you that maybe we enjoy watching sc2 as an eSports and would like to see racial balance for the top pros? Did it occur to any of you simple-minded folk that whining about everything just a few weeks after new patches are being applied and begging for massive swings like changing fungal's root or DoT ( very huge swing if you disagree with this in even the slightest, you do not understand this game at all) is incredibly counter-intuitive? Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about. Oh, so you'd be in favour of Blizzard bringing back 5rax reaper so zerg players could figure it out? No because that analogy doesn't work. As any intelligent person would clearly see, back then the game still needed some radical fixes to things like roaches and reaper/bunker combos. 2-3 years later though, the game is starting to look closer to balanced than it was back then so we're moving in the right direction. The whining that goes on lately is just laughable though. I don't even get gg anymore at the end of games, I get bm'd if I happened to random Zerg that time. Sorry guys but Zerg just isn't that easy or you would all have switched to Z and been top GMs getting paid to play this game by now. Too much hypocrisy in your post You better go learn what hypocrisy means before you embarrass yourself through misusing it again. What makes you think there's no needs for radical fixes now?
HotS being right around the corner makes me think us asking for radical fixes won't matter at all once the balance no doubt shifts as new strategies and metagames emerge from the new additions.
Maybe if you'd realize we're not "whining" and are simply "suggesting" how to make the game better, you'd be able to help make Sc2 a better game
You might not be, but don't say "we" like everyone in these threads can be lumped with you. The vast majority of people in here are just using this latest trend as an excuse for their own mistakes claiming they're "perfect" except Z just OP.
Unlike most people in here though, I know a lot of pros and semi-pros as well as a good number of connections within the SC organizations. I'll tell you right now from actually being in some of the pro houses and whatnot that they're too busy coming up with ways to deal with things to sit and complain about how they're a better player but lost because of balance.
Also almost everyone at pro level shares my sentiments on it being pointless to even so much as mention WoL balance when HotS is just about out.
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On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote:
Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about.
But you accept the point, that it wasn't the case, that Zerg players figured out the pre Queendralisk Terran openings, but Blizzard simply denying the whole early game meta at this point with a single buff?
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On December 25 2012 04:34 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote:
Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about. But you accept the point, that it wasn't the case, that Zerg players figured out the pre Queendralisk Terran openings, but Blizzard simply denying the whole early game meta at this point with a single buff?
The queen buff just plain wasn't that big. Queens even on creep can't catch hellions. Just make more than usual and you'll still kill a lot with them. I really liked MVP's 2 factory Blue Flame opening into double factory tank/marine from not too long ago and even though Life did win the series, it was obvious that MVP could contend with him as even Life lost so many drones in some games it was to the point of no possible recovery.
I'm sure someone will post trying to get further into those games and how "I'm wrong" or whatever but what I say is what the pros say and I'm inclined to agree with my teachers and mentors.
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For starters.their own tournament sported a meager 12.5% Terran representation, none of which made it past the RO16.
wtf is this? that's because the other two races are more popular and they just played worse, that has nothing to do with balance, lol, close this thread already.
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On December 25 2012 04:34 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote:
Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about. But you accept the point, that it wasn't the case, that Zerg players figured out the pre Queendralisk Terran openings, but Blizzard simply denying the whole early game meta at this point with a single buff?
Dude the queen buff wasn't even all they did to make Zerg invincible early game. Here are some of the openers they nerfed for zergs off the top of my head.
Made barracks require a depot to build (because proxy rax were killing hatch first, as intended). An extra 5 seconds to rax build time to nerf 11/11 opener. Reaper nerfs galore. Blue flame openers, nerfed. Banshee openers, nerfed (spore root time, queen buff encouraging players to make more of them early game). Also overlord speed buff pretty much killed any sneaky opener potential, also cheaper overseer costs. Stim research time nerfed, because bio timings were too good vs masses of drones (lol). Roach range buff to help vs reactor hellion opener. Snipe nerf, which was primarily because huge squads of ghosts were very strong in the late game vs Zerg, but this was also around the time players like Taeja had discovered a powerful hellion/snipe opener vs Zerg on the kor ladder.
Do I need to go on? Since launch, Blizzard has been molding this game to Idra's views because he inspired half the NA player base to be like him. By this I mean, ultra passive mass drone style early game, then finish with brood/infestor late game once you have an absurd economic lead over your opponent. This takes no skill to do in sc2 because macroing is so much easier than in BW, but hey thats what people wanted so thats what they got.
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On December 25 2012 04:37 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 04:34 TeeTS wrote:On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote:
Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about. But you accept the point, that it wasn't the case, that Zerg players figured out the pre Queendralisk Terran openings, but Blizzard simply denying the whole early game meta at this point with a single buff? The queen buff just plain wasn't that big. Queens even on creep can't catch hellions. Just make more than usual and you'll still kill a lot with them. I really liked MVP's 2 factory Blue Flame opening into double factory tank/marine from not too long ago and even though Life did win the series, it was obvious that MVP could contend with him as even Life lost so many drones in some games it was to the point of no possible recovery. I'm sure someone will post trying to get further into those games and how "I'm wrong" or whatever but what I say is what the pros say and I'm inclined to agree with my teachers and mentors.
I highly doubt that you have competent pros teaching you, since you don't have any idea of what was the point of old hellion based openings.
Pre Queendralisk you opened with Hellions to control the early creep spread and timing of the 3rd base. It was never about killing queens or drones. That was a bonus you would catch if the zerg made a huge blunder.
And making more Hellions now is a very good point. I don't know if you yet realized it, but Hellions are no free unit. And needing to spent more money to get less effect is not quite a viable option for me if the situation was considered fair before (by the vast majority of both Zerg and Terrans)
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Recent tournament results speaks wonders about the current stage of the game
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On December 25 2012 04:42 AnomalySC2 wrote:
Made barracks require a depot to build (because proxy rax were killing hatch first, as intended). An extra 5 seconds to rax build time to nerf 11/11 opener. Reaper nerfs galore. Blue flame openers, nerfed. Banshee openers, nerfed (spore root time, queen buff encouraging players to make more of them early game). Also overlord speed buff pretty much killed any sneaky opener potential, also cheaper overseer costs. Stim research time nerfed, because bio timings were too good vs masses of drones (lol). Roach range buff to help vs reactor hellion opener. Snipe nerf, which was primarily because huge squads of ghosts were very strong in the late game vs Zerg, but this was also around the time players like Taeja had discovered a powerful hellion/snipe opener vs Zerg on the kor ladder.
This is funny because they didn't even need to do some of these changes, a map pool with bigger maps would have done much better for the balance of the game back then instead of all these nerfs that are still being felt right now (Mostly centered around the rax / bunker / marine nerfs and how it affects early pressure today)
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On December 25 2012 04:42 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 04:37 sCCrooked wrote:On December 25 2012 04:34 TeeTS wrote:On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote:
Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about. But you accept the point, that it wasn't the case, that Zerg players figured out the pre Queendralisk Terran openings, but Blizzard simply denying the whole early game meta at this point with a single buff? The queen buff just plain wasn't that big. Queens even on creep can't catch hellions. Just make more than usual and you'll still kill a lot with them. I really liked MVP's 2 factory Blue Flame opening into double factory tank/marine from not too long ago and even though Life did win the series, it was obvious that MVP could contend with him as even Life lost so many drones in some games it was to the point of no possible recovery. I'm sure someone will post trying to get further into those games and how "I'm wrong" or whatever but what I say is what the pros say and I'm inclined to agree with my teachers and mentors. I highly doubt that you have competent pros teaching you, since you don't have any idea of what was the point of old hellion based openings.
After this, the post doesn't matter because you go on under the incorrect assumption made from literally nothing to try to explain the point of a hellion expand to someone (me) who knows it at least as well as you do and probably better.
At no time was the question of explaining the hellion expand opener ever stated so you somehow coming to the conclusion that I don't know its purpose when that was never a question or issue to begin with makes no sense.
You don't appear to understand the very mechanics of hellions vs ling/queen and the old method of making early roaches to take a third and how unbelievably costly that is to Z when we need upgrades and lair just to keep up with the tech.
Except for that part where you think that Mvp's hellion opener isn't a gimmick
lmao you better to learn this game a lot better before trying to discuss this with me. The very fact such a ridiculously bad statement from poor or simply incorrect thinking can come to your mind means there must be a huge world of difference between our levels of knowledge with me obviously being on the upper hand.
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On December 25 2012 04:55 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 04:42 TeeTS wrote:On December 25 2012 04:37 sCCrooked wrote:On December 25 2012 04:34 TeeTS wrote:On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote:
Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about. But you accept the point, that it wasn't the case, that Zerg players figured out the pre Queendralisk Terran openings, but Blizzard simply denying the whole early game meta at this point with a single buff? The queen buff just plain wasn't that big. Queens even on creep can't catch hellions. Just make more than usual and you'll still kill a lot with them. I really liked MVP's 2 factory Blue Flame opening into double factory tank/marine from not too long ago and even though Life did win the series, it was obvious that MVP could contend with him as even Life lost so many drones in some games it was to the point of no possible recovery. I'm sure someone will post trying to get further into those games and how "I'm wrong" or whatever but what I say is what the pros say and I'm inclined to agree with my teachers and mentors. I highly doubt that you have competent pros teaching you, since you don't have any idea of what was the point of old hellion based openings. After this, the post doesn't matter because you go on under the incorrect assumption made from literally nothing to try to explain the point of a hellion expand to someone (me) who knows it at least as well as you do and probably better. At no time was the question of explaining the hellion expand opener ever stated so you somehow coming to the conclusion that I don't know its purpose when that was never a question or issue to begin with makes no sense. You don't appear to understand the very mechanics of hellions vs ling/queen and the old method of making early roaches to take a third and how unbelievably costly that is to Z when we need upgrades and lair just to keep up with the tech.
.........
Except for that part where you think that Mvp's hellion opener isn't a gimmick
And really, how is making four roaches going to make you lose the game (protip: it isn't, and it wasn't even before the queen buff).
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On December 25 2012 05:00 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 04:55 sCCrooked wrote:On December 25 2012 04:42 TeeTS wrote:On December 25 2012 04:37 sCCrooked wrote:On December 25 2012 04:34 TeeTS wrote:On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote:
Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about. But you accept the point, that it wasn't the case, that Zerg players figured out the pre Queendralisk Terran openings, but Blizzard simply denying the whole early game meta at this point with a single buff? The queen buff just plain wasn't that big. Queens even on creep can't catch hellions. Just make more than usual and you'll still kill a lot with them. I really liked MVP's 2 factory Blue Flame opening into double factory tank/marine from not too long ago and even though Life did win the series, it was obvious that MVP could contend with him as even Life lost so many drones in some games it was to the point of no possible recovery. I'm sure someone will post trying to get further into those games and how "I'm wrong" or whatever but what I say is what the pros say and I'm inclined to agree with my teachers and mentors. I highly doubt that you have competent pros teaching you, since you don't have any idea of what was the point of old hellion based openings. After this, the post doesn't matter because you go on under the incorrect assumption made from literally nothing to try to explain the point of a hellion expand to someone (me) who knows it at least as well as you do and probably better. At no time was the question of explaining the hellion expand opener ever stated so you somehow coming to the conclusion that I don't know its purpose when that was never a question or issue to begin with makes no sense. You don't appear to understand the very mechanics of hellions vs ling/queen and the old method of making early roaches to take a third and how unbelievably costly that is to Z when we need upgrades and lair just to keep up with the tech. ......... Except for that part where you think that Mvp's hellion opener isn't a gimmick And really, how is making four roaches going to make you lose the game (protip: it isn't, and it wasn't even before the queen buff).
Zergs are entitled to 3 bases before any combat units can be made.
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EDIT: oops didn't notice the dates and the number of pages...
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On December 25 2012 04:55 sCCrooked wrote:
You don't appear to understand the very mechanics of hellions vs ling/queen and the old method of making early roaches to take a third and how unbelievably costly that is to Z when we need upgrades and lair just to keep up with the tech.
Really? Then why did Nerchio and later Stephano always played this way?
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On December 25 2012 01:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 01:19 Sandermatt wrote:On December 25 2012 00:18 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:
120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns
if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? I don't laugh out loud often, but this was hilarious... "the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings..." Are you serious dude? If we had five clones of MVP microing the Terran army at the same time, there's no way they could split the marines/ghosts and snipe even a single baneling, let alone "snipe most of the banelings". In theory, yes... if I wrote a computer program that could interface with SC2, it could stutter step each individual marine into a perfect split, while also stutter step splitting every ghost at the same time and sniping the closest baneling to a Terran unit, and the Terran would win that battle... So, yeah, you must be correct. If you bind your mouse button to the mouse wheel, you can snipe incredibly fast. One might label this as cheat, but there would be no way to prevent this online/on ladder. Well, you have the same problem with ITs... I have played quite a few games as T and as Z against Zerg opponents who had miracolous 1500 APM when throwing them and who could perfectly spend all their energy at once - way better than any progamer does... But I see what you mean. I think blizzard underestimated the speed+accuracy+queue tricks progamers would develop with snipe and ITs in direct combats, that's why those low cost spam abilities both have gotten so out of hand in any scenario where they were/are cost- or supplyefficient.
With infested terran this is most likely qued up commands.
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On December 25 2012 04:52 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 04:42 AnomalySC2 wrote:
Made barracks require a depot to build (because proxy rax were killing hatch first, as intended). An extra 5 seconds to rax build time to nerf 11/11 opener. Reaper nerfs galore. Blue flame openers, nerfed. Banshee openers, nerfed (spore root time, queen buff encouraging players to make more of them early game). Also overlord speed buff pretty much killed any sneaky opener potential, also cheaper overseer costs. Stim research time nerfed, because bio timings were too good vs masses of drones (lol). Roach range buff to help vs reactor hellion opener. Snipe nerf, which was primarily because huge squads of ghosts were very strong in the late game vs Zerg, but this was also around the time players like Taeja had discovered a powerful hellion/snipe opener vs Zerg on the kor ladder.
This is funny because they didn't even need to do some of these changes, a map pool with bigger maps would have done much better for the balance of the game back then instead of all these nerfs that are still being felt right now (Mostly centered around the rax / bunker / marine nerfs and how it affects early pressure today)
But I think even that is missing the entire point. Those builds that were nerfed out for being too effective were MEANT to be that effective (the game was balanced around them). People were not supposed to blindly fast expand every single game without worry. Hatching first vs someone proxying some barracks was meant to be almost impossible to hold, but now that they've nerfed anything that punishes blind greed the game has become exponentially more broken. They took fast paced poker and then took out the poker aspect, what we're left with is bewildering.
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These infestor changes are retarded...leave that shit for HotS. The infestor is fine as it is, just revert queen range and lovely old beautiful TvZ can return.
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On December 25 2012 06:42 Krakoskk wrote:
These infestor changes are retarded...leave that shit for HotS. The infestor is fine as it is, just revert queen range and lovely old beautiful TvZ can return.
Not gonna happen. Zergs have gotten it into their heads that if they dont have 3 bases and 70 drones at the 7 min mark then they are completely all in. look at these people arguing that making 3 roaches against Reactor helion would make you lose the game xD Ofc these people dont want nerfs, their race has never ever been more OP
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I feel sorry for terrans. The game has to be changed. And the conclusion writen in the articel clearly shows that the problem won't be taken care off in the near future
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how can someone join the conversation when this has already turned into such hate filled cockfight
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On December 25 2012 08:12 gosublade wrote:
how can someone join the conversation when this has already turned into such hate filled cockfight
They just gotta follow Cloud's advice on how to get a bigger cock
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On December 25 2012 05:01 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 05:00 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 25 2012 04:55 sCCrooked wrote:On December 25 2012 04:42 TeeTS wrote:On December 25 2012 04:37 sCCrooked wrote:On December 25 2012 04:34 TeeTS wrote:On December 25 2012 03:20 sCCrooked wrote:
Fenner said it best. Be excited when the other races figures your stuff out and you can't just win with it anymore. It means the meta is evolving and the game is still developing. It should be exciting, not whined about. But you accept the point, that it wasn't the case, that Zerg players figured out the pre Queendralisk Terran openings, but Blizzard simply denying the whole early game meta at this point with a single buff? The queen buff just plain wasn't that big. Queens even on creep can't catch hellions. Just make more than usual and you'll still kill a lot with them. I really liked MVP's 2 factory Blue Flame opening into double factory tank/marine from not too long ago and even though Life did win the series, it was obvious that MVP could contend with him as even Life lost so many drones in some games it was to the point of no possible recovery. I'm sure someone will post trying to get further into those games and how "I'm wrong" or whatever but what I say is what the pros say and I'm inclined to agree with my teachers and mentors. I highly doubt that you have competent pros teaching you, since you don't have any idea of what was the point of old hellion based openings. After this, the post doesn't matter because you go on under the incorrect assumption made from literally nothing to try to explain the point of a hellion expand to someone (me) who knows it at least as well as you do and probably better. At no time was the question of explaining the hellion expand opener ever stated so you somehow coming to the conclusion that I don't know its purpose when that was never a question or issue to begin with makes no sense. You don't appear to understand the very mechanics of hellions vs ling/queen and the old method of making early roaches to take a third and how unbelievably costly that is to Z when we need upgrades and lair just to keep up with the tech. ......... Except for that part where you think that Mvp's hellion opener isn't a gimmick And really, how is making four roaches going to make you lose the game (protip: it isn't, and it wasn't even before the queen buff). Zergs are entitled to 3 bases before any combat units can be made.
?
If we scout an expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is. We can't drone that expansion before confirming we aren't getting hit with a quick 2 base all in. We can't go "pure drones till 80" against even the most standard hellion/banshee pressure, and none of our all ins should work. I don't see why people are so upset about how behind 6 queens we can take a third against a fast expand build. Seriously, we're investing >1k minerals in static defense and delay our tech by a ton; we should be allowed to take a fucking third. If we couldn't, that would be flawed design.
Anyway, I have to agree with sCCrooked here. Balance makes NO difference unless you're actually at a level where people are getting paid to play the game/perform well at tournaments. And whining about how you're way better than your opponents but still lose because "Zerg IMBA" doesn't accomplish anything except piss of Zerg players and take away from your practice time that you could lose to actually improve at the game.
Sure, the game should be balanced, but there shouldn't be a thread this big where 1/2 of the posts are balance whine, 1/4 are Zergs defending themselves, and 1/4 are Terrans claiming that all Zergs are full of shit. I'm officially done with this thread, only going to stay subscribed to see sCCrooked's responses to you guys. I like this guy and his mindset.
Have a nice day everyone, and Merry Christmas
Edit:
Not gonna happen. Zergs have gotten it into their heads that if they dont have 3 bases and 70 drones at the 7 min mark then they are completely all in. look at these people arguing that making 3 roaches against Reactor helion would make you lose the game xD Ofc these people dont want nerfs, their race has never ever been more OP
This is the kind of useless post that will get nobody anywhere and does nothing except insult Zerg players. I'd hazard a bet that this guy is in a low league, considering how much inaccuracy is in the post. (Seriously, if someone hits 70 drones at 7 mins send me the replay, I need to fucking learn how to. My high score is ~50, and that's vs a scouted 3OC before rax)
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the whole zerg gameplay just builds up around one unit.. such a stupid game design
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On December 05 2012 11:33 chadissilent wrote:
The problem with TvZ is balance whine.
Spot on. The balance whining from zergs for the last years got them the ghost nerf and queen change.
Meanwhile, a unit that was broken as fuck wasn't being used at all, because like the terrans said, zergs were stuck using the same shit.
On December 05 2012 12:53 a176 wrote:All your arguments against zerg are fundamental design aspects of the race. You can't change that. This is how it was even in BW. The only 'timing' you could pull of in BW was an early game marine medic push. The way SC2 itself is designed and played, zerg is in fact http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Sauron_(strategy) . What needs to be absolutely changed are the units. Things like gglords fundamentally breaking siege tanks, by spawning free units on your marines for tanks to kill with FF. And fungal planting units. That is just dumb design.
Interesting. I think changing siege tanks to not shoot broodlings could considerably fix the lategame TvZ.
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On December 25 2012 06:14 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 01:37 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 01:19 Sandermatt wrote:On December 25 2012 00:18 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:
120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns
if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? I don't laugh out loud often, but this was hilarious... "the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings..." Are you serious dude? If we had five clones of MVP microing the Terran army at the same time, there's no way they could split the marines/ghosts and snipe even a single baneling, let alone "snipe most of the banelings". In theory, yes... if I wrote a computer program that could interface with SC2, it could stutter step each individual marine into a perfect split, while also stutter step splitting every ghost at the same time and sniping the closest baneling to a Terran unit, and the Terran would win that battle... So, yeah, you must be correct. If you bind your mouse button to the mouse wheel, you can snipe incredibly fast. One might label this as cheat, but there would be no way to prevent this online/on ladder. Well, you have the same problem with ITs... I have played quite a few games as T and as Z against Zerg opponents who had miracolous 1500 APM when throwing them and who could perfectly spend all their energy at once - way better than any progamer does... But I see what you mean. I think blizzard underestimated the speed+accuracy+queue tricks progamers would develop with snipe and ITs in direct combats, that's why those low cost spam abilities both have gotten so out of hand in any scenario where they were/are cost- or supplyefficient. With infested terran this is most likely qued up commands.
No. Because APM are counted when you click it. In particular, if you queue 100ITs - and then you do nothing and just wait until the Infestors reach the spot and cast 100ITs - you will have 0 APM when they are delivered, even though the Infestors are casting. (but a lot of APM while queing, though hardly anyone will be physically capable of reaching 25clicks per second = 1500APM at that moment)
Some people use those "bind left click to mouse wheel" mouse driver tricks for ITs (and have used them for snipe as well --> one of the first videos about this trick).
On December 25 2012 08:27 Fyy wrote:
the whole zerg gameplay just builds up around one unit.. such a stupid game design
I'm pretty sure I have seen way more (no-Infestor) Mutalisk builds in the past two years, than (no-Marine) Mech builds in TvZ. Hell, we even see Roach (and Roach/Hydra) builds lately.
So I'd say Zerg design is at least godlike compared to "one-and-a-half-trick" Marine/Tank Terran, if you're standard is "core units".
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On December 25 2012 09:12 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 06:14 Sandermatt wrote:On December 25 2012 01:37 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 01:19 Sandermatt wrote:On December 25 2012 00:18 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:
120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns
if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? I don't laugh out loud often, but this was hilarious... "the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings..." Are you serious dude? If we had five clones of MVP microing the Terran army at the same time, there's no way they could split the marines/ghosts and snipe even a single baneling, let alone "snipe most of the banelings". In theory, yes... if I wrote a computer program that could interface with SC2, it could stutter step each individual marine into a perfect split, while also stutter step splitting every ghost at the same time and sniping the closest baneling to a Terran unit, and the Terran would win that battle... So, yeah, you must be correct. If you bind your mouse button to the mouse wheel, you can snipe incredibly fast. One might label this as cheat, but there would be no way to prevent this online/on ladder. Well, you have the same problem with ITs... I have played quite a few games as T and as Z against Zerg opponents who had miracolous 1500 APM when throwing them and who could perfectly spend all their energy at once - way better than any progamer does... But I see what you mean. I think blizzard underestimated the speed+accuracy+queue tricks progamers would develop with snipe and ITs in direct combats, that's why those low cost spam abilities both have gotten so out of hand in any scenario where they were/are cost- or supplyefficient. With infested terran this is most likely qued up commands. No. Because APM are counted when you click it. In particular, if you queue 100ITs - and then you do nothing and just wait until the Infestors reach the spot and cast 100ITs - you will have 0 APM when they are delivered, even though the Infestors are casting. (but a lot of APM while queing, though hardly anyone will be physically capable of reaching 25clicks per second = 1500APM at that moment) Some people use those "bind left click to mouse wheel" mouse driver tricks for ITs (and have used them for snipe as well --> one of the first videos about this trick). Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:27 Fyy wrote:
the whole zerg gameplay just builds up around one unit.. such a stupid game design I'm pretty sure I have seen way more (no-Infestor) Mutalisk builds in the past two years, than (no-Marine) Mech builds in TvZ. Hell, we even see Roach (and Roach/Hydra) builds lately. So I'd say Zerg design is at least godlike compared to "one-and-a-half-trick" Marine/Tank Terran, if you're standard is "core units".
pretty smart to compare infestors with marines, i guess
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On December 25 2012 09:34 Fyy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 09:12 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 06:14 Sandermatt wrote:On December 25 2012 01:37 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 01:19 Sandermatt wrote:On December 25 2012 00:18 barwick11 wrote:On December 24 2012 12:04 Forikorder wrote:
120 lings and 80 banelings dont beat 90 marines let alone 90 marines + 20 ghosts the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings and with a good split the rest of the banelings wont be cost effective then jsut stutter step and destroy the zergligns
if ling/bane is so good in the late game, why does every Zerg transition? I don't laugh out loud often, but this was hilarious... "the ghosts will snipe most of the banelings..." Are you serious dude? If we had five clones of MVP microing the Terran army at the same time, there's no way they could split the marines/ghosts and snipe even a single baneling, let alone "snipe most of the banelings". In theory, yes... if I wrote a computer program that could interface with SC2, it could stutter step each individual marine into a perfect split, while also stutter step splitting every ghost at the same time and sniping the closest baneling to a Terran unit, and the Terran would win that battle... So, yeah, you must be correct. If you bind your mouse button to the mouse wheel, you can snipe incredibly fast. One might label this as cheat, but there would be no way to prevent this online/on ladder. Well, you have the same problem with ITs... I have played quite a few games as T and as Z against Zerg opponents who had miracolous 1500 APM when throwing them and who could perfectly spend all their energy at once - way better than any progamer does... But I see what you mean. I think blizzard underestimated the speed+accuracy+queue tricks progamers would develop with snipe and ITs in direct combats, that's why those low cost spam abilities both have gotten so out of hand in any scenario where they were/are cost- or supplyefficient. With infested terran this is most likely qued up commands. No. Because APM are counted when you click it. In particular, if you queue 100ITs - and then you do nothing and just wait until the Infestors reach the spot and cast 100ITs - you will have 0 APM when they are delivered, even though the Infestors are casting. (but a lot of APM while queing, though hardly anyone will be physically capable of reaching 25clicks per second = 1500APM at that moment) Some people use those "bind left click to mouse wheel" mouse driver tricks for ITs (and have used them for snipe as well --> one of the first videos about this trick). On December 25 2012 08:27 Fyy wrote:
the whole zerg gameplay just builds up around one unit.. such a stupid game design I'm pretty sure I have seen way more (no-Infestor) Mutalisk builds in the past two years, than (no-Marine) Mech builds in TvZ. Hell, we even see Roach (and Roach/Hydra) builds lately. So I'd say Zerg design is at least godlike compared to "one-and-a-half-trick" Marine/Tank Terran, if you're standard is "core units". pretty smart so compare infestors with marines, i guess
Not really smart. Just following the definition of "core unit". (which a lot of people keep on mixing up with "low tier unit")
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I think a lot of the whine stems from the fact that zerg only has brood/infestor to reliably break an entrenched position.
This leads to a lot of games which are lost by the terran between 6 to 11 minutes by bad hellion control (or whatever) going on until the 14-20 minute mark because the only way zerg can safely punish mistakes is by expanding and teching to broods. If terran expanded too soon/late or lost an army in a bad engagement, unsieged etc and then zerg had some way to immediately roll into their base instead of having to wait 10 minutes before retaliating then we'd probably actually see less whine.
On a separate note, why are people still complaining about WoL balance? Oh no! tvz is broken, if only there was an expansion coming to shake things up a bit...
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On December 25 2012 09:58 Zrana wrote:
I think a lot of the whine stems from the fact that zerg only has brood/infestor to reliably break an entrenched position.
This leads to a lot of games which are lost by the terran between 6 to 11 minutes by bad hellion control (or whatever) going on until the 14-20 minute mark because the only way zerg can safely punish mistakes is by expanding and teching to broods. If terran expanded too soon/late or lost an army in a bad engagement, unsieged etc and then zerg had some way to immediately roll into their base instead of having to wait 10 minutes before retaliating then we'd probably actually see less whine.
On a separate note, why are people still complaining about WoL balance? Oh no! tvz is broken, if only there was an expansion coming to shake things up a bit...
We're still playing WoL, and poor balance has turned the latter half of this year into a ZvZfest.
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regardless if you're playing it or not, or that none of us in this thread are pros (except for the few pros that might've posted here)
TvZ/ZvT is really boring to watch and play atm.
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Honestly this game just isn't even fun to watch anymore. I already know what's going to happen if the game goes beyond about 15 minutes.
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On December 25 2012 09:58 Zrana wrote:
I think a lot of the whine stems from the fact that zerg only has brood/infestor to reliably break an entrenched position.
This leads to a lot of games which are lost by the terran between 6 to 11 minutes by bad hellion control (or whatever) going on until the 14-20 minute mark because the only way zerg can safely punish mistakes is by expanding and teching to broods. If terran expanded too soon/late or lost an army in a bad engagement, unsieged etc and then zerg had some way to immediately roll into their base instead of having to wait 10 minutes before retaliating then we'd probably actually see less whine.
On a separate note, why are people still complaining about WoL balance? Oh no! tvz is broken, if only there was an expansion coming to shake things up a bit...
Zerg has won plenty of games without abusing the late game or greed of Terran. The fact is that Zerg has always had the ability to outplay their opponent at roughly the same level of play. There was some unpleasant volatility in the early game that could cause seemingly "unfair" losses by Zerg, but the numbers worked out balance wise. Now it's blatantly broken.
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On December 25 2012 10:05 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 09:58 Zrana wrote:
I think a lot of the whine stems from the fact that zerg only has brood/infestor to reliably break an entrenched position.
This leads to a lot of games which are lost by the terran between 6 to 11 minutes by bad hellion control (or whatever) going on until the 14-20 minute mark because the only way zerg can safely punish mistakes is by expanding and teching to broods. If terran expanded too soon/late or lost an army in a bad engagement, unsieged etc and then zerg had some way to immediately roll into their base instead of having to wait 10 minutes before retaliating then we'd probably actually see less whine.
On a separate note, why are people still complaining about WoL balance? Oh no! tvz is broken, if only there was an expansion coming to shake things up a bit... We're still playing WoL, and poor balance has turned the latter half of this year into a ZvZfest.
These kind of posts make me realize how much I (still) hate SC2 over BW even though I stopped playing/watching BW entirely.
A long long time ago, when siege tanks did a whopping 70 damage with bigger a bigger splash radius, when Goliath had similar range to the Thor but had AA DPS that didn't suck llama testicles, when 3 mini-nukes could be easily deployed for almost free, when a highly mobile caster unit had better defensively potential than the Raven, Zergs and Protosses STILL fucking broke Terran entrenchments through absolutely ARTFUL positioning, micro, unit spread, and drops alongside some very epic spell casting (JANGBI STORMS fuck yah).
Granted, spells like stasis, plague, and dark swarm were extremely beneficial and would be totally OP in SC2, but they are the reason why the races were balanced not much unlike the spells of today (fungal, ITs, vortex, etc.).
Mutas faced with super OP AOE damage (irradiate), hydra that melted like butter against 2-shotting tank fire and zerglings that died by the dozen to single spider mines... yet, zerg fucking prevailed and broke mech and all of its turtling entrenchments.
Nowadays it goes something like this, "Fuck my army melted to DEFENSIVE/SIEGED mech after I 1A'ed! OP! Need something that works with attack-move!" When have we EVER seen a game in SC2 where the zerg/protoss player uses the full extent of siege breaking capabilities at their disposal and still loses? The answer is NEVER. Instead, low-level players complain, and the 1A deathball mechanic prevails for the purpose of "appealing to casual gamers", before giving enough time for people, even pros, to figure out the art of siege breaking properly.
Someone PLEASE find that thread on proper siege breaking in PvT for BW and link it to enlighten the new kids in town.
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On December 25 2012 10:13 blobrus wrote:
Honestly this game just isn't even fun to watch anymore. I already know what's going to happen if the game goes beyond about 15 minutes.
Same...usually I just stop watching whenever one of the players get overwhelmed.
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On December 25 2012 11:42 EngrishTeacher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 10:05 forsooth wrote:On December 25 2012 09:58 Zrana wrote:
I think a lot of the whine stems from the fact that zerg only has brood/infestor to reliably break an entrenched position.
This leads to a lot of games which are lost by the terran between 6 to 11 minutes by bad hellion control (or whatever) going on until the 14-20 minute mark because the only way zerg can safely punish mistakes is by expanding and teching to broods. If terran expanded too soon/late or lost an army in a bad engagement, unsieged etc and then zerg had some way to immediately roll into their base instead of having to wait 10 minutes before retaliating then we'd probably actually see less whine.
On a separate note, why are people still complaining about WoL balance? Oh no! tvz is broken, if only there was an expansion coming to shake things up a bit... We're still playing WoL, and poor balance has turned the latter half of this year into a ZvZfest. These kind of posts make me realize how much I (still) hate SC2 over BW even though I stopped playing/watching BW entirely. A long long time ago, when siege tanks did a whopping 70 damage with bigger a bigger splash radius, when Goliath had similar range to the Thor but had AA DPS that didn't suck llama testicles, when 3 mini-nukes could be easily deployed for almost free, when a highly mobile caster unit had better defensively potential than the Raven, Zergs and Protosses STILL fucking broke Terran entrenchments through absolutely ARTFUL positioning, micro, unit spread, and drops alongside some very epic spell casting (JANGBI STORMS fuck yah). Granted, spells like stasis, plague, and dark swarm were extremely beneficial and would be totally OP in SC2, but they are the reason why the races were balanced not much unlike the spells of today (fungal, ITs, vortex, etc.). Mutas faced with super OP AOE damage (irradiate), hydra that melted like butter against 2-shotting tank fire and zerglings that died by the dozen to single spider mines... yet, zerg fucking prevailed and broke mech and all of its turtling entrenchments. Nowadays it goes something like this, "Fuck my army melted to DEFENSIVE/SIEGED mech after I 1A'ed! OP! Need something that works with attack-move!" When have we EVER seen a game in SC2 where the zerg/protoss player uses the full extent of siege breaking capabilities at their disposal and still loses? The answer is NEVER. Instead, low-level players complain, and the 1A deathball mechanic prevails for the purpose of "appealing to casual gamers", before giving enough time for people, even pros, to figure out the art of siege breaking properly. Someone PLEASE find that thread on proper siege breaking in PvT for BW and link it to enlighten the new kids in town.
We actually have seen some great siege breaking, like in the early days of Stephano domination, leading tank shots with ITs. In some very recent games, we have seen Zerg do some really nice splits and flanking to break a late game front door of Terran. Those are both great and awful moments to see because it shows that mech can be broken with great play.
Then the next game you see in the series ends with an infestor/BL combo.
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I think that removing creep spread from the game and removing its speed bonus would go a long way towards improving the game. I feel that it provides way too much "free" scouting as well as making it too easy for the zerg to defend. On the flip side, it often makes it feel very difficult to do any meaningful aggression because of the speed decrease. This leads to it being more beneficial to just spread creep and sit back massing up an unbeatable army, rather than constantly trying to be aggressive. Perhaps giving all units the average between their speed off creep and on creep would be a potential solution, and obviously some kind of consideration would need to be given to queens in regards to speed. This would also free up the zergs attention and give them more time to do other things (i.e. attack more).
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If Zerg had ANY other lategame options that are the least bit durable or capable of engaging lategame P or T armies, we'd be using them.
I dunno about SC2 Zergs but BW zergs have been holding this mentality for a long time. Zerg in SC2 does not feel like Zerg. I mean look at creep mechanics, we're encouraged to stay in our bases which is completely counter-intuitive to a BW Zerg. Same thing with giving us slow immobile shit units that require upgrades just to be viable anywhere other than right in our own bases (roach/hydra). Couple that with BL/Festor which is probably the most immobile composition ever and you have a recipe for pissing Zerg players off.
I mean it'd be like trying to play BW with pure Guardian defiler using nothing but plague all the time. That's our lategame option because everything else doesn't scale properly with upgrades and eventually all but pure hive units and a smattering of banes is required.
I don't like when people draw the stuff out of proportion so much, as people tend to use these threads and their content to excuse their own mistakes or bad play. Instead chalking things up to balance issues rather than problems with the fundamentals of their own gameplay.
Most Zs will tell you we're sick of not getting any rewards for micro (ST_Life is an exception... that guy somehow figured out how to micro lings and get returns but literally nobody can emulate it). The whole reason I played BW at a decent level as Z was because I was fast, I could be aggressive everywhere and still macro back home. Z in SC2 can't do that. We're stoic.
Give us better units and better micro returns and you'll see Zergs themselves calling for infestors and BLs to be removed/heavily-modified. Oh, and please give us a freaking mobile powerful lategame option... paper ultras, slow-moving units, and immobility of things like lings other than a not-very-sneaky nydus with terrible damage potential, units that are only able to move on land (dropping lings in bases lategame doesn't work vs turrets/cannons and its incredibly bad cost-wise).
I think people who whine from T and P should instead start asking Blizz to modify Zerg as a race and not just the infestor. If you give us a better set of alternatives and creative play, most Zs won't choose BLs or infestors. They don't feel very "Zergy".
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While most of the points are valid points of argument I do not think that the attention for harassment is a valid argument to make in any way. This is due to both races being able to harass each other in ways that mirror each other. Mutas are mirrored by banshees, ling runbys are mirrored by hellions, the burrowed ling is mirrored by a marine placed to kill a drone sent to expand and the nydus/drop of Zerg is mirrored by the drop of terrans. Both races have advantages with certain types of harass like the burrowed ling taking a scan while the marine does not. Hellions and banshees are able to limit creep while mutas become useless and zerglings become weak at anything except runbyes.Overall because of these reasons harass is equall between the two races and therefor should not be used to support one race or the other.
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Just nerf creep spread and vision. Hell, it might be a good idea to nerf vision by something ridiculous, like 1/3 to 1/2, but keep spread the same. Would make it harder to spread and reduce the automatic vision, somewhat making it like scan where you can "miss" important information but still have a chance to hit it big. You'd still get the speed bonus too.
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On December 25 2012 12:28 Cababel wrote:
While most of the points are valid points of argument I do not think that the attention for harassment is a valid argument to make in any way. This is due to both races being able to harass each other in ways that mirror each other. Mutas are mirrored by banshees, ling runbys are mirrored by hellions, the burrowed ling is mirrored by a marine placed to kill a drone sent to expand and the nydus/drop of Zerg is mirrored by the drop of terrans. Both races have advantages with certain types of harass like the burrowed ling taking a scan while the marine does not. Hellions and banshees are able to limit creep while mutas become useless and zerglings become weak at anything except runbyes.Overall because of these reasons harass is equall between the two races and therefor should not be used to support one race or the other.
You can't possibly expect people to buy this do you?
Mutas are equal to banshees? Yeah with higher speed, greater numbers, greater investment, no cloak surprise possible and the timing at which they can come out is significantly different in the meta. 1-2 cloaked banshees can deal massive damage. 1-2 mutas can not.
Also trying to equate the speed and cost-effective damage potential of a nydus worm with the mobility/speed/durability/frequency of medivac drops is also ridiculous.
They're not similar unless you go down to the most basic description you'd expect to find in the game manual and those descriptions are pretty vague. Much too vague to be used in any sort of high-level-thinking balance discussions.
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The grass is always greener on the other side.
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On December 25 2012 12:57 snexwang wrote:
The grass is always greener on the other side.
SC2 = a desert at this point.
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On December 25 2012 12:57 snexwang wrote:
The grass is always greener on the other side.
Some of us have spent time on both sides of the fence and found one side boring and the other side overly frustrating.
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I've always found the ZvT matchup to be pretty balanced without infestors. People say that Terran is unforgiving in terms of tanks being unsieged, but Zergs also have their moments. If you allow your opponent to get a crazy ass siege or if the terran drops your expansion while your army is on the other side of the map you can pretty much just die.
Infestors are pretty unforgiving though... I've seen to many professionals lose to them on a regular basis.
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If infestors weren't in the game and TvZ was just mutaling vs marine medivac tank, it'd be balanced. The game however will never be like this.
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On December 25 2012 21:21 cydial wrote:
If infestors weren't in the game and TvZ was just mutaling vs marine medivac tank, it'd be balanced. The game however will never be like this.
The whole idea behind muta/ling/baneling is to either allin-bust with it or to defend with it until you can transition into Hive-tech...
If you couldn't transition out of muta/ling/bling, Terran would simply win once the tank/thor count gets high enough to not lose marines anymore to banelings.
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On December 25 2012 06:42 Krakoskk wrote:
These infestor changes are retarded...leave that shit for HotS. The infestor is fine as it is, just revert queen range and lovely old beautiful TvZ can return.
Geez oh man people...
The queen range buff didn't *make* this problem, it did make it worse, but mostly it exposed something most people didn't know, and that's Zerg's invulnerability while they drone, which also made tech more accessible every game rather than games where the opponent chose a passive build.
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On December 25 2012 08:18 Mavvie wrote:
?
If we scout an expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is.
Are you serious?
Here, as a Terran, let me say exactly what you said and you'll laugh...
"If we scout a [zerg] expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is."
Get real. That's how the game "currently" is thanks to the nerf bat on Terran and the steady diet of steroids given zerg.
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Wow, this thread is literally a bunch of balance whiners saying "Well, maybe THIS thing is IMBA!" The dude who complains about creep(even removing it, wtf?), the guy complaining about harassment, the one guy complaining about zergs somehow getting 70 drones at 6 minutes.
It really is proving that most people posting here are low leaguers.
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On December 26 2012 00:11 barwick11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:18 Mavvie wrote:
?
If we scout an expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is. Are you serious? Here, as a Terran, let me say exactly what you said and you'll laugh... "If we scout a [zerg] expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is." Get real. That's how the game "currently" is thanks to the nerf bat on Terran and the steady diet of steroids given zerg.
Perhaps if you factor in the cost inefficiency of Zerg units, and how since BW zergs have had to stay a base up, it seems fine.
Honestly, since the start of the game Zergs have had to stay a base up on their opponents. I don't see why people suddenly think that shouldn't be true anymore.
As a sidenote, if Zerg expands then Terran can go for a reasonably timed 3OC, so it doesn't sound silly at all. You don't see 4:00 thirds in ZvT, you see 5:30-6:30 thirds behind >1k minerals of static defense. Honestly I don't see why people are mad at 6 queen openers. You still get map control with hellions, I still can't attack you, you can still slow down creep (not as well as before, but you can definitely slow it down), and you still force ~16-24 lings when Zerg is at 50ish drones.
I feel like a "Less QQ more pewpew" attitude would be beneficial to everyone in this thread. If you play better than your opponent, you will win. If you make mistakes, you will lose. That's how the game always has been, and always will be.
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On December 26 2012 01:52 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 00:11 barwick11 wrote:On December 25 2012 08:18 Mavvie wrote:
?
If we scout an expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is. Are you serious? Here, as a Terran, let me say exactly what you said and you'll laugh... "If we scout a [zerg] expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is." Get real. That's how the game "currently" is thanks to the nerf bat on Terran and the steady diet of steroids given zerg. Perhaps if you factor in the cost inefficiency of Zerg units, and how since BW zergs have had to stay a base up, it seems fine. Honestly, since the start of the game Zergs have had to stay a base up on their opponents. I don't see why people suddenly think that shouldn't be true anymore.
This is only true because Artosis and Idra said so early on in sc2's life. Even the first couple of GSLs we saw Nestea and Fruitdealer use all sorts of different strategies, including one base bane busts to spine crawler rushes to quick 2 base mutas to 2 base ling/infested terran busts.....etc etc. My point is, Zerg doesn't HAVE to always be up a base on their opponents, that's just what most people believe. It's just a stereotype that eventually became a rule on how you should play Zerg, and it has more or less made the metagame a complete snoozefest as everyone plays this style. No creativity, and it takes no skill either. Macroing in SC2 is much easier than BW.
Deciding to expand again on your opponent should be a strategic decision, not just how you play a race.
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On December 26 2012 01:52 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 00:11 barwick11 wrote:On December 25 2012 08:18 Mavvie wrote:
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If we scout an expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is. Are you serious? Here, as a Terran, let me say exactly what you said and you'll laugh... "If we scout a [zerg] expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is." Get real. That's how the game "currently" is thanks to the nerf bat on Terran and the steady diet of steroids given zerg. Perhaps if you factor in the cost inefficiency of Zerg units, and how since BW zergs have had to stay a base up, it seems fine. Honestly, since the start of the game Zergs have had to stay a base up on their opponents. I don't see why people suddenly think that shouldn't be true anymore. As a sidenote, if Zerg expands then Terran can go for a reasonably timed 3OC, so it doesn't sound silly at all. You don't see 4:00 thirds in ZvT, you see 5:30-6:30 thirds behind >1k minerals of static defense. Honestly I don't see why people are mad at 6 queen openers. You still get map control with hellions, I still can't attack you, you can still slow down creep (not as well as before, but you can definitely slow it down), and you still force ~16-24 lings when Zerg is at 50ish drones. I feel like a "Less QQ more pewpew" attitude would be beneficial to everyone in this thread. If you play better than your opponent, you will win. If you make mistakes, you will lose. That's how the game always has been, and always will be.
Leenock has shown more than a few times now, that a 3 base zerg can beat an any base P/T. He has on occasion even sac'd his third and natural just to buy time to get the infestor/BL. Once you get that composition, there is no cost inefficiency, it is the greatest cost efficiency in the entire game. For example, the HerO game comes to mind. A 6 base protoss vs a zerg on 3 base the whole game (and almost mined out). But HerO could not kill any units with his repeated max army attacks. He couldn't have played any more perfect. The cost inefficiency is only true for hatch/lair phase. Once zerg hits hive, that is no longer true. Add in the queen range to help defend everything, and you have extremely early hives, which quickly means zerg does not have to be a base up.
Also, just because you scout a zerg third, does not mean they will no longer all-in you. I've seen many games of terran trying to take their fast third OC only to get hit by a roach all-in and lose. Terran needs to make sure you've droned up on the third base before it truly is safe.
The point of hellions in the past was to delay the third, so that they have a chance to hit some sort of timing. Now zerg can drone up to 70, and at that point they are already too far ahead. The hellion contained kept the game balanced by being an extremely powerful opening. Now without the powerful opening, the game is no longer balanced. That's why terran did it, it wasn't to force a few units, it was to really delay the third and drone production, force very early units, so that they could compete with the zerg.
I think most people are not "QQ" being they can't win on the ladder. In fact, everyone wins 50% of their games on the ladder, so balance doesn't matter at all. However, it isn't balanced at the pro level. That is why everyone has a "QQ" attitude. It isn't that the best player wins tournaments, it's that the best zerg will win.
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On December 26 2012 01:52 Mavvie wrote:
Perhaps if you factor in the cost inefficiency of Zerg units, and how since BW zergs have had to stay a base up, it seems fine.
Infestor ling is one of the most cost efficient solutions. Unmicroed marines die to unmicroed lings for the same cost. Banelings are uber effective vs marines. Fungal is free energy. 6 lings runby can deny mining at a non-planetary expansion, you have to make a bunker at least. A burrowed ling needs a scan to clear. Zerg supply depot - overlords, can also spew creep (increasing speed), fly, and can be used as drop ships. A hatchery is all you need for both unit production and drone production. Tell me more how cost inefficient zerg is.
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On December 26 2012 01:52 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 00:11 barwick11 wrote:On December 25 2012 08:18 Mavvie wrote:
?
If we scout an expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is. Are you serious? Here, as a Terran, let me say exactly what you said and you'll laugh... "If we scout a [zerg] expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is." Get real. That's how the game "currently" is thanks to the nerf bat on Terran and the steady diet of steroids given zerg. Perhaps if you factor in the cost inefficiency of Zerg units, and how since BW zergs have had to stay a base up, it seems fine. Honestly, since the start of the game Zergs have had to stay a base up on their opponents. I don't see why people suddenly think that shouldn't be true anymore. As a sidenote, if Zerg expands then Terran can go for a reasonably timed 3OC, so it doesn't sound silly at all. You don't see 4:00 thirds in ZvT, you see 5:30-6:30 thirds behind >1k minerals of static defense. Honestly I don't see why people are mad at 6 queen openers. You still get map control with hellions, I still can't attack you, you can still slow down creep (not as well as before, but you can definitely slow it down), and you still force ~16-24 lings when Zerg is at 50ish drones. I feel like a "Less QQ more pewpew" attitude would be beneficial to everyone in this thread. If you play better than your opponent, you will win. If you make mistakes, you will lose. That's how the game always has been, and always will be.
Honestly in the more modern SC2 right now, Zerg units are incredibly cost efficient.
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On December 26 2012 00:37 Brawny wrote:
Wow, this thread is literally a bunch of balance whiners saying "Well, maybe THIS thing is IMBA!" The dude who complains about creep(even removing it, wtf?), the guy complaining about harassment, the one guy complaining about zergs somehow getting 70 drones at 6 minutes.
It really is proving that most people posting here are low leaguers.
Actually I'm not a "low leaguer" and I even play zerg myself. I was just giving my opinion that without creep spread, I think the game would be much more interesting. This opinion is not founded on anything being imbalanced or not, although there certainly would be ramifications to current balance without question. I simply just think it would make for better gameplay overall.
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On December 26 2012 05:04 Voodoo[z] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 00:37 Brawny wrote:
Wow, this thread is literally a bunch of balance whiners saying "Well, maybe THIS thing is IMBA!" The dude who complains about creep(even removing it, wtf?), the guy complaining about harassment, the one guy complaining about zergs somehow getting 70 drones at 6 minutes.
It really is proving that most people posting here are low leaguers. Actually I'm not a "low leaguer" and I even play zerg myself. I was just giving my opinion that without creep spread, I think the game would be much more interesting. This opinion is not founded on anything being imbalanced or not, although there certainly would be ramifications to current balance without question. I simply just think it would make for better gameplay overall.
Not to mention, are there even any "low leaguers" left that still play SC2? It seems like it's only a fairly small group of hardcore players that still play/follow the game. I could be wrong though, that's just pure speculation.
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I would love to see SC2 without fungal growth and perhaps an alternate ability. Im sick of seeing these anti micro spells running the entire game.
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On December 26 2012 01:52 Mavvie wrote:
If you play better than your opponent, you will win. If you make mistakes, you will lose. That's how the game always has been, and always will be.
Not really. You can be better than your zerg opponent as terran, the zerg can make many mistakes, but it takes one good fungal and the game is even and even you are behind.
That is the problem: being beaten consistently by less mechanically skilled players than yourself. Don't tell me you don't see the problem if players like ForGG or Polt who have far better mechanics than their zerg counterparts but can lose and lose regularly to inferior mechanics of players like Nerchio or Scarlett or Idra.
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On December 26 2012 01:52 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 00:11 barwick11 wrote:On December 25 2012 08:18 Mavvie wrote:
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If we scout an expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is. Are you serious? Here, as a Terran, let me say exactly what you said and you'll laugh... "If we scout a [zerg] expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is." Get real. That's how the game "currently" is thanks to the nerf bat on Terran and the steady diet of steroids given zerg. Perhaps if you factor in the cost inefficiency of Zerg units, and how since BW zergs have had to stay a base up, it seems fine. Honestly, since the start of the game Zergs have had to stay a base up on their opponents. I don't see why people suddenly think that shouldn't be true anymore. As a sidenote, if Zerg expands then Terran can go for a reasonably timed 3OC, so it doesn't sound silly at all. You don't see 4:00 thirds in ZvT, you see 5:30-6:30 thirds behind >1k minerals of static defense. Honestly I don't see why people are mad at 6 queen openers. You still get map control with hellions, I still can't attack you, you can still slow down creep (not as well as before, but you can definitely slow it down), and you still force ~16-24 lings when Zerg is at 50ish drones. I feel like a "Less QQ more pewpew" attitude would be beneficial to everyone in this thread. If you play better than your opponent, you will win. If you make mistakes, you will lose. That's how the game always has been, and always will be.
... Zerg does not need be up in bases, Terran and Toss do because infestor + broodlord counters everything cost effectively... unless zerg just clump + amove and gets hit by seekers or vortex, no other way.
"zerg need more bases than opponent" was true when other races could inflict damage meaning zerg had to make more cost inefficient unit and that was ok because they have the best economy, but now games jump right into infestor before action happens.
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On December 26 2012 01:52 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 00:11 barwick11 wrote:On December 25 2012 08:18 Mavvie wrote:
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If we scout an expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is. Are you serious? Here, as a Terran, let me say exactly what you said and you'll laugh... "If we scout a [zerg] expansion, we can take a third. It's how the game is." Get real. That's how the game "currently" is thanks to the nerf bat on Terran and the steady diet of steroids given zerg. Perhaps if you factor in the cost inefficiency of Zerg units, and how since BW zergs have had to stay a base up, it seems fine. Honestly, since the start of the game Zergs have had to stay a base up on their opponents. I don't see why people suddenly think that shouldn't be true anymore. As a sidenote, if Zerg expands then Terran can go for a reasonably timed 3OC, so it doesn't sound silly at all. You don't see 4:00 thirds in ZvT, you see 5:30-6:30 thirds behind >1k minerals of static defense. Honestly I don't see why people are mad at 6 queen openers. You still get map control with hellions, I still can't attack you, you can still slow down creep (not as well as before, but you can definitely slow it down), and you still force ~16-24 lings when Zerg is at 50ish drones. I feel like a "Less QQ more pewpew" attitude would be beneficial to everyone in this thread. If you play better than your opponent, you will win. If you make mistakes, you will lose. That's how the game always has been, and always will be.
I never really play anymore because I know exactly how every TvZ and TvP is going to play out, and very little of it seems to hinge on my own skill. When I win in those matchups it's very clear that my opponent made a tremendous amount of mistakes that led me to victory, not my own skill that caused it. I really enjoy TvT but when 1 out of 10 games is TvT if I'm lucky there's not really much point.
People don't QQ because it's imbalanced, people don't even QQ because it's imbalanced at the Pro level either. People have been QQing because it's boring to play, and extremely boring to watch. Every TvZ and TvP is going to play out exactly the same, in my games or Polts games. The Terran player is either going to die to a cheese or all in while trying to outgreed his opponent (Super frustrating) and there is no chance of defense. When a Terran goes for a 3CC build against a Zerg that busts him he'll die, every time no matter how good he is. If there is no cheese the game will keep going into the snoozefest of broodlord/infestor or Colo/HT in the case of TvP. Every single game is exactly the same.
Oh and the bases thing is old and no longer remotely true. In order for Terran to reproduce at the same rate as a Zerg he needs to investroughly 8x the resources in infrastructure the zerg does. As soon as zergs figured out they can exploit this by maxing out and banking larva before attacking the game was pretty shot.
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Apart from Infestors, the whole thing boils down to larvae. In the past, you needed larvae to defend early pushes and to shoo off the contain from Reactor Hellion Expand quickly. Zerg players didn't like it. I vividly remember the endless inanity of "making Roaches is unacceptable because it means we can't drone/tech optimally". I am serious. The damage IdrA and Artosis have done to Zerg players' mindset cannot be underestimated.
The issue is that, as we all have (to our boredom) noticed over the last half a year, the Zerg economy, if unhindered, is broken. The ability to use all your production slots on nothing but economy is way too good to exist, except for the fact that in the past you could force Zerg to use larvae for defense. This meant both sides made army, econ and teched a bit. It was fair (though understandably felt bad for Z because they were literally being damaged).
Also, the only really boring part about Reactor Hellion was that T went for it almost always. The opener itself played out entertainingly enough: both sides had high stakes (immediate, long-lasting loss of map control for Terran, severe economic damage or outright game loss for Zerg) and there was lots of action happening. Terrans were busy trying to snipe tumors, Z was busy trying to sneak them past the Hellions, players had to watch their Queens/Hellions constantly to prevent a Hellion/Speedling snipe, respectively, and so forth. The most important thing of all, though, was that it led to an actual midgame.
And from here we get to the cascade effect the Queendralisk buff had. The early game implications are clear for all to see. But the ripple effects? Dear god. First, creep spread easily goes out of control, where spreading it was an effort before. The better economy allows for a very early swell of Infestors, which helps make Zerg safe and essentially kills the midgame, from which we get into quick, fast, Infestor/T3 comp with the accompanying tech switches. The sheer scale of the change is perhaps best realized when one stops to consider that in the past a 17 minute Hive was risky and greedy. Such a far cry from our current, absurdly safe 12 minute Hive timings, isn't it? That's all because Z had to invest into a midgame to fight off the Terran midgame (which they could get to due to less creep and slower Zerg development). And damn, was that midgame ever good.
The slower Hive timings also made the late game more bearable - Terran had more time to get their infrastructure up to contend with Zerg's endgame composition. The fundamental character of it was then, and still is expensive, inflexible Terran infrastructure making very narrow anti-1-unit counters that have no other use vs. a flexible Zerg infrastructure making little but threats.
The greatest casualty of the Queendralisk patch hasn't been balance, though - a certain amount of imbalance you can work around and it is even entertaining for some. The greatest casualties have been fun (the game has become dull), the idea that the game makes any kind of sense (the kind of imbalance and it's degree make the games feel just plain stupid). I also can't tell good and bad Zergs apart anymore. In the past, great creep spread was an achievement. There were brilliant holds, good game sense, great flanks. Mutas hadn't been eclipsed so badly and so were an actual (not just stubbornly stylistic) option. Now it's the same dull monotony where it feels like the sheer, absurd, dominant power of some key units does more work than the player.
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On December 26 2012 07:40 truthUnderVeil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 01:52 Mavvie wrote:
If you play better than your opponent, you will win. If you make mistakes, you will lose. That's how the game always has been, and always will be. Not really. You can be better than your zerg opponent as terran, the zerg can make many mistakes, but it takes one good fungal and the game is even and even you are behind. That is the problem: being beaten consistently by less mechanically skilled players than yourself. Don't tell me you don't see the problem if players like ForGG or Polt who have far better mechanics than their zerg counterparts but can lose and lose regularly to inferior mechanics of players like Nerchio or Scarlett or Idra.
It's not even all about fungal. Fungal compounds on top of the early game queen strengths and the economic power housing that happens behind them. Fungal helps Zerg have a great late game to aim for that they can use reliably to secure a win. Without it, Zerg has to use less reliable strategies and tactics, like larva banking for a fast remax or tech switch, and relying on great engagements before it's "too late."
As much as I hate comparing races and drawing quick parallels, I guess a good way to think of it is if Terran OCs were also PFs, and simultaneously tanks did 70 damage to every unit once again. Terran would expand as early as possible and then use the econ advantage to mass enough tanks+support to push across the map. A great late game strategy mixed with the ability to be greedy in the early game without recourse.
I don't use this as a literal example, but to illustrate the fundamental issue with how the other races have to approach vZ match ups these days. They have strong early game defenses as well as a great late game strategy to aim for. Neither perfect by any means, but strong nonetheless.
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For what it's worth, I think the main cause of the above is Blizzard's design philosophy and seeming cluelessness. It feels like they balance for percentages, not gut feeling, and seem generally disconnected from what is going on. They also severely underestimate the potential of simple unit designs that move and make stuff go boom. Positioning is one of the deepest, most granular skills this game tests and I'd wish it tested more. Instead, Blizzard designs units like MOBA heroes. Lots and lots of bells and whistles (HELLO, ORACLE. THANK GOODNESS YOUR FIRST INCARNATION IS DEAD) and general gimmickry that forces units to be used formulaically. Their heavy focus on direct hard counters is also pretty questionable.
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On December 26 2012 09:41 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 07:40 truthUnderVeil wrote:On December 26 2012 01:52 Mavvie wrote:
If you play better than your opponent, you will win. If you make mistakes, you will lose. That's how the game always has been, and always will be. Not really. You can be better than your zerg opponent as terran, the zerg can make many mistakes, but it takes one good fungal and the game is even and even you are behind. That is the problem: being beaten consistently by less mechanically skilled players than yourself. Don't tell me you don't see the problem if players like ForGG or Polt who have far better mechanics than their zerg counterparts but can lose and lose regularly to inferior mechanics of players like Nerchio or Scarlett or Idra. It's not even all about fungal. Fungal compounds on top of the early game queen strengths and the economic power housing that happens behind them. Fungal helps Zerg have a great late game to aim for that they can use reliably to secure a win. Without it, Zerg has to use less reliable strategies and tactics, like larva banking for a fast remax or tech switch, and relying on great engagements before it's "too late." As much as I hate comparing races and drawing quick parallels, I guess a good way to think of it is if Terran OCs were also PFs, and simultaneously tanks did 70 damage to every unit once again. Terran would expand as early as possible and then use the econ advantage to mass enough tanks+support to push across the map. A great late game strategy mixed with the ability to be greedy in the early game without recourse. I don't use this as a literal example, but to illustrate the fundamental issue with how the other races have to approach vZ match ups these days. They have strong early game defenses as well as a great late game strategy to aim for. Neither perfect by any means, but strong nonetheless.
It's funny, my standard sarcastic piece of insanity when someone suggests Hellions were 2GD is something along the lines "OMG I didn't wall off ling runby killed me lings imba! Give OCs PF cannon plz". The alternate was a PF that can fly and shoot from the air I think.
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On December 26 2012 09:42 Coffee Zombie wrote:
For what it's worth, I think the main cause of the above is Blizzard's design philosophy and seeming cluelessness. It feels like they balance for percentages, not gut feeling, and seem generally disconnected from what is going on. They also severely underestimate the potential of simple unit designs that move and make stuff go boom. Positioning is one of the deepest, most granular skills this game tests and I'd wish it tested more. Instead, Blizzard designs units like MOBA heroes. Lots and lots of bells and whistles (HELLO, ORACLE. THANK GOODNESS YOUR FIRST INCARNATION IS DEAD) and general gimmickry that forces units to be used formulaically. Their heavy focus on direct hard counters is also pretty questionable.
This is what I've been saying since beta of WoL. The only thing is that I have no proof if they are balancing it this way on purpose...
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On December 26 2012 09:36 Coffee Zombie wrote:
The issue is that, as we all have (to our boredom) noticed over the last half a year, the Zerg economy, if unhindered, is broken. The ability to use all your production slots on nothing but economy is way too good to exist, except for the fact that in the past you could force Zerg to use larvae for defense. This meant both sides made army, econ and teched a bit. It was fair (though understandably felt bad for Z because they were literally being damaged).
Larvae being a requirement for defense also meant that zergs would make those decisions of what to go for, at times waiting for their scouting information to come in, before deciding that they are safe and can pump. Being totally larvae independent is just such huge freedom ontop of everything else that is good about it.
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On December 26 2012 09:36 Coffee Zombie wrote:
Apart from Infestors, the whole thing boils down to larvae. In the past, you needed larvae to defend early pushes and to shoo off the contain from Reactor Hellion Expand quickly. Zerg players didn't like it. I vividly remember the endless inanity of "making Roaches is unacceptable because it means we can't drone/tech optimally". I am serious. The damage IdrA and Artosis have done to Zerg players' mindset cannot be underestimated.
The issue is that, as we all have (to our boredom) noticed over the last half a year, the Zerg economy, if unhindered, is broken. The ability to use all your production slots on nothing but economy is way too good to exist, except for the fact that in the past you could force Zerg to use larvae for defense. This meant both sides made army, econ and teched a bit. It was fair (though understandably felt bad for Z because they were literally being damaged).
Also, the only really boring part about Reactor Hellion was that T went for it almost always. The opener itself played out entertainingly enough: both sides had high stakes (immediate, long-lasting loss of map control for Terran, severe economic damage or outright game loss for Zerg) and there was lots of action happening. Terrans were busy trying to snipe tumors, Z was busy trying to sneak them past the Hellions, players had to watch their Queens/Hellions constantly to prevent a Hellion/Speedling snipe, respectively, and so forth. The most important thing of all, though, was that it led to an actual midgame.
And from here we get to the cascade effect the Queendralisk buff had. The early game implications are clear for all to see. But the ripple effects? Dear god. First, creep spread easily goes out of control, where spreading it was an effort before. The better economy allows for a very early swell of Infestors, which helps make Zerg safe and essentially kills the midgame, from which we get into quick, fast, Infestor/T3 comp with the accompanying tech switches. The sheer scale of the change is perhaps best realized when one stops to consider that in the past a 17 minute Hive was risky and greedy. Such a far cry from our current, absurdly safe 12 minute Hive timings, isn't it? That's all because Z had to invest into a midgame to fight off the Terran midgame (which they could get to due to less creep and slower Zerg development). And damn, was that midgame ever good.
The slower Hive timings also made the late game more bearable - Terran had more time to get their infrastructure up to contend with Zerg's endgame composition. The fundamental character of it was then, and still is expensive, inflexible Terran infrastructure making very narrow anti-1-unit counters that have no other use vs. a flexible Zerg infrastructure making little but threats.
The greatest casualty of the Queendralisk patch hasn't been balance, though - a certain amount of imbalance you can work around and it is even entertaining for some. The greatest casualties have been fun (the game has become dull), the idea that the game makes any kind of sense (the kind of imbalance and it's degree make the games feel just plain stupid). I also can't tell good and bad Zergs apart anymore. In the past, great creep spread was an achievement. There were brilliant holds, good game sense, great flanks. Mutas hadn't been eclipsed so badly and so were an actual (not just stubbornly stylistic) option. Now it's the same dull monotony where it feels like the sheer, absurd, dominant power of some key units does more work than the player.
Spot on post, hit pretty much all the points
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The control requirements are icing on the cake, IMHO. And even if they're unbalanced, some of that is good (because some people flat out like things being hard to do, so T being harder to execute isn't necessarily a bad thing as far as the degree isn't horrendous).
The fundamental problem is still safety/information/economy and the pace of the match where there are glaring hard numbers issues that need to be solved before combat control even becomes a factor.
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On December 26 2012 09:44 Coffee Zombie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 09:41 aksfjh wrote:On December 26 2012 07:40 truthUnderVeil wrote:On December 26 2012 01:52 Mavvie wrote:
If you play better than your opponent, you will win. If you make mistakes, you will lose. That's how the game always has been, and always will be. Not really. You can be better than your zerg opponent as terran, the zerg can make many mistakes, but it takes one good fungal and the game is even and even you are behind. That is the problem: being beaten consistently by less mechanically skilled players than yourself. Don't tell me you don't see the problem if players like ForGG or Polt who have far better mechanics than their zerg counterparts but can lose and lose regularly to inferior mechanics of players like Nerchio or Scarlett or Idra. It's not even all about fungal. Fungal compounds on top of the early game queen strengths and the economic power housing that happens behind them. Fungal helps Zerg have a great late game to aim for that they can use reliably to secure a win. Without it, Zerg has to use less reliable strategies and tactics, like larva banking for a fast remax or tech switch, and relying on great engagements before it's "too late." As much as I hate comparing races and drawing quick parallels, I guess a good way to think of it is if Terran OCs were also PFs, and simultaneously tanks did 70 damage to every unit once again. Terran would expand as early as possible and then use the econ advantage to mass enough tanks+support to push across the map. A great late game strategy mixed with the ability to be greedy in the early game without recourse. I don't use this as a literal example, but to illustrate the fundamental issue with how the other races have to approach vZ match ups these days. They have strong early game defenses as well as a great late game strategy to aim for. Neither perfect by any means, but strong nonetheless. It's funny, my standard sarcastic piece of insanity when someone suggests Hellions were 2GD is something along the lines "OMG I didn't wall off ling runby killed me lings imba! Give OCs PF cannon plz". The alternate was a PF that can fly and shoot from the air I think.
I always liked the imbalanced idea that CCs could land on units and crush them. I digress though.
Your post was great. We still hear some comments from other casters along the lines of "Well, Zerg DOES have the same number of bases as Terran, so Zerg is technically behind!" Of course, they exclaim that after Zerg goes for a bust and doesn't kill the opponent outright. By the same logic, Terran must be a base up or be behind every time they push out against Protoss. These notions, along with "Zerg is inefficient," "Protoss units are more costly, so they should be better," and "Terrans have the best ability to turtle," need to be squelched.
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There's a lot more that needs to be said that hasn't yet.
1. Terran is balanced around Korean Terrans.
Terran is a very multi-task, micro-oriented race, and that's what the Koreans thrive on. Zerg, on the other hand, is more of a chore race, aimed at overwhelming through economy. Terran falls in line with the Korean style of play while Zerg is more of a foreigner race, and since the Koreans are the best players in the world the skill ceiling for Terran has shot through the roof whereas Zerg hasn't really been affected by the Korean learning curve. This is why Terran got nerfed so much. Not because it was more powerful, but because the Koreans used the race in such a way that prevented the other races from competing.
2. Terran is imbalanced too.
Blizzard have employed the awful strategy of balancing through imbalances, giving each race an equal number of absolutely broken strategies. They tried to fix one (hellion runbys) by buffing queens, and now Zerg winrates have exploded, but there are still many totally broken Terran strats.
- 2 rax rushes are still imbalanced because Zerg can't kill a finished bunker (even today I'm incapable of writing that sentence without feeling extreme disgust at Blizzard's balance team).
- Medivac drops are far too powerful considering the investment.
- Zerg can't attack. They have been recently in pro games, but that's far more of a metagame thing to kill Terrans who are playing greedier with every month.
- Fungal is the only thing Zerg has that can damage Terran units. Everything else is either extremely cost-inefficient or can be avoided through micro.
I'm not saying Zerg isn't more powerful in the match, I'm just pointing out that there is plenty of bullshit that benefits each side.
3. Wings of Liberty is not worth fixing.
There is so much wrong with this game and so few tournaments happening between now and Heart of the Swarm that anything more than another Zerg-nerf band-aid fix is too much. Blizzard is lucky that the winrates are what they are, considering how thoroughly they've fucked up the game design, and any more attempts to fix the deep-seated issues that make the game near unplayable will result in even more one-sided tournaments. The good news is that Heart of the Swarm seeks to amend all the really awful game design, so let's treat that as one giant balance patch to fix Wings of Liberty and hold our breath until then.
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The Hellion Expand wasn't broken. There was one problematic aspect to it, and that was that a heavy 2 Factory Mass Hellion push could be masked to look just like the standard expand. Obviously, the commitment to defense is worlds different, which is why the Ferrarilords were generally welcomed (though they themselves are a bit problematic with parking spots designed for slowlords. The parking spots are outrageously good anyway).
Agreed though, that their time-sensitive asymmetric design idea is ridiculously ass-backwards design. It essentially promotes matches that are heavily scripted and in that regard feel more like a MOBA than an RTS game.
WoL salvageability, likewise agreed. Though HotS won't do much, Legacy of the Void is basically where any work will get done, if any, unless they're willing to do really, really drastic patches for HotS.
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I was unimpressed with with most of these points to be honest. The whole "I can't safely go onto creep without vision of what's ahead or a detector" is ridiculous to me. Also the "6 queens holds off all kind of all-ins" argument is garbage. 6 queen openers might hold off the same Hellion openings Terrans have been doing for a year, but if you try new things, you will find more success. Try dropping more, the Zerg is strong up front with the queens, but the back is usually vulnerable. To be honest, I just see a thread crying about how Zerg has a reasonable chance to hold of early Terran pressure and still
Drone well behind it. DeMuslim does a 4 starport banshee build, I saw him beat Scarlett with it even when she OPENED MUTA. Try that, and I wish you success with your TvZ in the future, although hopefully not as a result of a patch.
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I think its naive to think HotS will some how fix the gameplay.
If anything it looks like it will create more problems.
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IM MVP the man himself is currently streaming and loosing on NA to some random Z master player who is going for 30+ infestors and is A moving with 100+ lings armies.
Le sigh
User was temp banned for this post.
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I'm not a T player, but is weird for me to watch Z's in TvZ defending hellion pushes almost easily with just queens and lings.
I mean, if the T goes hellion heavy, the Z should be forced at least to make spines. Even being forced to make roaches (or more spines) in case of lot of hellions. Even in the games the pro Z's go for roaches, they are not behind at all in eco.
Z defenses are strong even without spending too much money, so that combined the almost always eco lead, plus the lategame dominance, is just too much, the race for the T to slow down the Z is really hard.
So why not, for example, nerf queens? It was that buff in the first place that started the patchzerg era (yeah, not to mention how masseable and strong are infestors). Why not set queen range into 4?
The buff from 3 to 5 was a lot. Why not go into a middle ground?
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On December 26 2012 16:57 Belha wrote:
So why not, for example, nerf queens? It was that buff in the first place that started the patchzerg era (yeah, not to mention how masseable and strong are infestors). Why not set queen range into 4?
The buff from 3 to 5 was a lot. Why not go into a middle ground?
I was actually saying that 4 would've been better when they were testing the buff in the first place
then again it's pretty late, and blizzard has their heads elsewhere that they won't admit their mistake (and thus won't revert it)
(oh. except for bunker changes)
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nerfing queens wont solve the issue, cause queen buff already made 4-6 queen openings useful for Z to take un punishable 3rd and zerg still has energy anyway on macro queens.. the issue is around larva mechanics, unforgivingness if macro cycle because of larva stack and ofcourse winfestor, zerg already has discovered way too good opertunities.. my god how OP zerg would been with old fungal of 2011... with current metagame
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On December 26 2012 10:07 Solarist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 09:36 Coffee Zombie wrote:
Apart from Infestors, the whole thing boils down to larvae. In the past, you needed larvae to defend early pushes and to shoo off the contain from Reactor Hellion Expand quickly. Zerg players didn't like it. I vividly remember the endless inanity of "making Roaches is unacceptable because it means we can't drone/tech optimally". I am serious. The damage IdrA and Artosis have done to Zerg players' mindset cannot be underestimated.
The issue is that, as we all have (to our boredom) noticed over the last half a year, the Zerg economy, if unhindered, is broken. The ability to use all your production slots on nothing but economy is way too good to exist, except for the fact that in the past you could force Zerg to use larvae for defense. This meant both sides made army, econ and teched a bit. It was fair (though understandably felt bad for Z because they were literally being damaged).
Also, the only really boring part about Reactor Hellion was that T went for it almost always. The opener itself played out entertainingly enough: both sides had high stakes (immediate, long-lasting loss of map control for Terran, severe economic damage or outright game loss for Zerg) and there was lots of action happening. Terrans were busy trying to snipe tumors, Z was busy trying to sneak them past the Hellions, players had to watch their Queens/Hellions constantly to prevent a Hellion/Speedling snipe, respectively, and so forth. The most important thing of all, though, was that it led to an actual midgame.
And from here we get to the cascade effect the Queendralisk buff had. The early game implications are clear for all to see. But the ripple effects? Dear god. First, creep spread easily goes out of control, where spreading it was an effort before. The better economy allows for a very early swell of Infestors, which helps make Zerg safe and essentially kills the midgame, from which we get into quick, fast, Infestor/T3 comp with the accompanying tech switches. The sheer scale of the change is perhaps best realized when one stops to consider that in the past a 17 minute Hive was risky and greedy. Such a far cry from our current, absurdly safe 12 minute Hive timings, isn't it? That's all because Z had to invest into a midgame to fight off the Terran midgame (which they could get to due to less creep and slower Zerg development). And damn, was that midgame ever good.
The slower Hive timings also made the late game more bearable - Terran had more time to get their infrastructure up to contend with Zerg's endgame composition. The fundamental character of it was then, and still is expensive, inflexible Terran infrastructure making very narrow anti-1-unit counters that have no other use vs. a flexible Zerg infrastructure making little but threats.
The greatest casualty of the Queendralisk patch hasn't been balance, though - a certain amount of imbalance you can work around and it is even entertaining for some. The greatest casualties have been fun (the game has become dull), the idea that the game makes any kind of sense (the kind of imbalance and it's degree make the games feel just plain stupid). I also can't tell good and bad Zergs apart anymore. In the past, great creep spread was an achievement. There were brilliant holds, good game sense, great flanks. Mutas hadn't been eclipsed so badly and so were an actual (not just stubbornly stylistic) option. Now it's the same dull monotony where it feels like the sheer, absurd, dominant power of some key units does more work than the player. Spot on post, hit pretty much all the points
Excellent post. There use to be a time where zerg players were able to really differentiate themselves especially when it came down to the early game. DRG was one of them. I kind of miss the 2011 days with mid games that involved flanks and back doors etc with muta/ling/bling (this was absolutely a blast to watch) until the blasted infestors took over.
Thinking about it, the zerg race as a whole seems to suffer from design problems (including balance patches) due to inconsistencies.
-Larvae mechanic: Fact is.. BW zerg units were actually very cost efficient due to the 3 larvae her hatch limit (Most pro games will show that zerg will be down 50 supply most of the time and be fine against their opponents). In SC2, you can have up to 17 larvae stock piled per hatch. This means that SC2 zerg units have to be cost inefficient. Why? Due to their production advantage thanks to the larvae mechanic, either the opposition can handle multiple waves of the zerg army or the zerg units are weaker to compensate for the larvae advantage because no race will win in terms of marco vs a zerg. (Another reason why once you lose the critical engagement, the zerg production snowballs over the T/P production capabilities and win the game).
But when we look at SC2 zerg units, the only unit that seems very cost inefficient are the hydras. Everything else is not so bad (not great but better than hydras) plus its very weird to see alot of 2 supply units. If zerg had 1 supply hydras (or roach) with slightly reduced stats, this would actually limit the larvae mechanic somewhat which comes to the other point.
-"Need to stay one more base ahead than your T/P opponent" This is simply not true in SC2. In BW, this was true to the limited production/larvae zerg had. In SC2, you can fill out your mineral line with drones in seconds. Range 5 queens just makes this process so much easier. Zergs could saturate 3 bases in no time while having that "threat" of an all out attack looming over the T/Ps head. 3 Bases is probably the most optimum due to the fact that having too many drones = reduced army supply. Plus with each hatchery + queen can result in a total of 17 larvae, you just dont need so many bases like do you in BW. Ive seen so many SC2 games that have zerg pinned to 3 base but win anyway. Its weird, I know but from a swarmy race in the early game, it sort of turns into a BW mech ball in the late game with less drawbacks.
Then the last of its problem is this infestor unit which is pretty much the most cost efficient (the most boring also) spell caster, or unit in the game even more so than the marine. Atleast you can kill marines with ease or the fact that marine micro is sickening to watch at times.
tl;dr: I just miss the old TvZ days. I dare say it.. but it really made TvZ BW proud. You could say that the matchup transitioned nicely with a healthy dose of "new"ess from being SC2. Sadly, it took a turn in the wrong direction.
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On December 26 2012 14:29 Savagewood wrote:
I was unimpressed with with most of these points to be honest. The whole "I can't safely go onto creep without vision of what's ahead or a detector" is ridiculous to me. Also the "6 queens holds off all kind of all-ins" argument is garbage. 6 queen openers might hold off the same Hellion openings Terrans have been doing for a year, but if you try new things, you will find more success. Try dropping more, the Zerg is strong up front with the queens, but the back is usually vulnerable. To be honest, I just see a thread crying about how Zerg has a reasonable chance to hold of early Terran pressure and still
Drone well behind it. DeMuslim does a 4 starport banshee build, I saw him beat Scarlett with it even when she OPENED MUTA. Try that, and I wish you success with your TvZ in the future, although hopefully not as a result of a patch.
6 Queens doesn't hold off any all-in. The thing that makes it broken is that it forces the Terran to all-in if they want to make the Zerg invest larvae into anything but Drones. A Zerg that makes nothing but Drones is flat out broken (which is good). Used to be, light pressure forced Z to make units (bang, set back to fairness). Now, lolnope, they press sdddd all day if it's not a very, very heavy push.
Dropping? When drops come at 10 minutes or something? When the problem is a 6-7 minute third that gets saturated super quickly, and is guarded by 7 range 2.5 speed (=medivac speed) mobile AA?
The 4 ports I won't even get to.
On December 26 2012 15:22 Zombo Joe wrote:
I think its naive to think HotS will some how fix the gameplay.
If anything it looks like it will create more problems.
Yup. Might fix some, but it doesn't fix any of the actual causes these problems stem from.
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On December 26 2012 09:36 Coffee Zombie wrote:
Apart from Infestors, the whole thing boils down to larvae. In the past, you needed larvae to defend early pushes and to shoo off the contain from Reactor Hellion Expand quickly. Zerg players didn't like it. I vividly remember the endless inanity of "making Roaches is unacceptable because it means we can't drone/tech optimally". I am serious. The damage IdrA and Artosis have done to Zerg players' mindset cannot be underestimated.
The issue is that, as we all have (to our boredom) noticed over the last half a year, the Zerg economy, if unhindered, is broken. The ability to use all your production slots on nothing but economy is way too good to exist, except for the fact that in the past you could force Zerg to use larvae for defense. This meant both sides made army, econ and teched a bit. It was fair (though understandably felt bad for Z because they were literally being damaged).
Also, the only really boring part about Reactor Hellion was that T went for it almost always. The opener itself played out entertainingly enough: both sides had high stakes (immediate, long-lasting loss of map control for Terran, severe economic damage or outright game loss for Zerg) and there was lots of action happening. Terrans were busy trying to snipe tumors, Z was busy trying to sneak them past the Hellions, players had to watch their Queens/Hellions constantly to prevent a Hellion/Speedling snipe, respectively, and so forth. The most important thing of all, though, was that it led to an actual midgame.
And from here we get to the cascade effect the Queendralisk buff had. The early game implications are clear for all to see. But the ripple effects? Dear god. First, creep spread easily goes out of control, where spreading it was an effort before. The better economy allows for a very early swell of Infestors, which helps make Zerg safe and essentially kills the midgame, from which we get into quick, fast, Infestor/T3 comp with the accompanying tech switches. The sheer scale of the change is perhaps best realized when one stops to consider that in the past a 17 minute Hive was risky and greedy. Such a far cry from our current, absurdly safe 12 minute Hive timings, isn't it? That's all because Z had to invest into a midgame to fight off the Terran midgame (which they could get to due to less creep and slower Zerg development). And damn, was that midgame ever good.
The slower Hive timings also made the late game more bearable - Terran had more time to get their infrastructure up to contend with Zerg's endgame composition. The fundamental character of it was then, and still is expensive, inflexible Terran infrastructure making very narrow anti-1-unit counters that have no other use vs. a flexible Zerg infrastructure making little but threats.
The greatest casualty of the Queendralisk patch hasn't been balance, though - a certain amount of imbalance you can work around and it is even entertaining for some. The greatest casualties have been fun (the game has become dull), the idea that the game makes any kind of sense (the kind of imbalance and it's degree make the games feel just plain stupid). I also can't tell good and bad Zergs apart anymore. In the past, great creep spread was an achievement. There were brilliant holds, good game sense, great flanks. Mutas hadn't been eclipsed so badly and so were an actual (not just stubbornly stylistic) option. Now it's the same dull monotony where it feels like the sheer, absurd, dominant power of some key units does more work than the player.
One of the best posts regarding this issue that I've seen in a while - and that also confirms my idea that the Queen buff has ruined the match up even more than the fungal damage output
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On December 26 2012 11:33 _Search_ wrote:
2. Terran is imbalanced too.
Blizzard have employed the awful strategy of balancing through imbalances, giving each race an equal number of absolutely broken strategies. They tried to fix one (hellion runbys) by buffing queens, and now Zerg winrates have exploded, but there are still many totally broken Terran strats.
- 2 rax rushes are still imbalanced because Zerg can't kill a finished bunker (even today I'm incapable of writing that sentence without feeling extreme disgust at Blizzard's balance team).
- Medivac drops are far too powerful considering the investment.
- Zerg can't attack. They have been recently in pro games, but that's far more of a metagame thing to kill Terrans who are playing greedier with every month.
- Fungal is the only thing Zerg has that can damage Terran units. Everything else is either extremely cost-inefficient or can be avoided through micro.
All your points are painfully wrong, how can you even write such hyperboles without any evidence? Hatchery first can hold even proxy 11/11, otherwise it would not be standard. Completed Bunkers can sometimes be killed, sometimes they can't, but anyway the whole point of the defence is preventing one Bunker from completing in range of the Hatchery. Medivac drops can be handled easily with Overlord spread, creep, not-even-static defence and the fact Speedlings on creep can usually come in a matter of seconds to clear said drop. Stating that Zergs can't attack is laughable, check games from players like Leenock, Life or Stephano (or anyone playing something else than turtle Hive, really) and don't forget to apologize for writing something that dumb. Zergs have midgame agressive options both against Terran and Protoss even if biased Zergs love nothing more than complaining that they supposedly only have Infestors and Fungal to win... which, surprise surprise, is precisely your last point. I would sure love if neither Zerglings nor Roaches nor Ultralisks made any damage to my units, and your point about cost-inefficiency are empty words from the past since (a) maps are now covered in creep making Zerg units way more efficient and (b) Zergs learnt that nothing forces them to charge their whole army from a single angle.
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On December 26 2012 11:33 _Search_ wrote:
2. Terran is imbalanced too.
Nope. It is not. It is so underpowered that we don't see almost any terrans at the top tournaments making it to ro4 or ro8. Hell, Blizz's own tournament had 4 terrans qualify at ro32. Don't say ridiculous things.
The stuff about 2 raxes...I saw Scarlett make 3 hatch before pool and stop 11/11 rax. So don't start me on that cause you are plain wrong.
Please, by all means, defend your race, but say things that are true. Don't imagine stuff and use your imagination to talk about balance.
About zerg not being able to attack at mid game...man, In the last 10zvt's I've seen, if the zerg is ahead one game, second game is almost always high eco bling bust. Out of 3 bases. The race is that ridiculous.
See ladder. 20% terran at most at gm. 44% zerg. how is this even remotely close to balanced? I, a masters/gm terran, have 13/41 W/L vs zerg this season. On pro tournaments (GSL) zerg has 64% win rate vs terran in the last season. It is not EVEN close to balanced.
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On December 27 2012 02:55 truthUnderVeil wrote:Nope. It is not. It is so underpowered that we don't see almost any terrans at the top tournaments making it to ro4 or ro8. Hell, Blizz's own tournament had 4 terrans qualify at ro32. Don't say ridiculous things. The stuff about 2 raxes...I saw Scarlett make 3 hatch before pool and stop 11/11 rax. So don't start me on that cause you are plain wrong. Please, by all means, defend your race, but say things that are true. Don't imagine stuff and use your imagination to talk about balance. About zerg not being able to attack at mid game...man, In the last 10zvt's I've seen, if the zerg is ahead one game, second game is almost always high eco bling bust. Out of 3 bases. The race is that ridiculous. See ladder. 20% terran at most at gm. 44% zerg. how is this even remotely close to balanced? I, a masters/gm terran, have 13/41 W/L vs zerg this season. On pro tournaments (GSL) zerg has 64% win rate vs terran in the last season. It is not EVEN close to balanced.
The way terran is designed makes it hard to play and harder to recover from a mistake. If you have bad macro as a zerg or a protoss and a lot of minerals / gas saved up, you can press 4srrrrrrrrrrr as zerg to instantly spend that bank or Wzzssssssss as protoss. If you have that much minerals / gas as a terran you can't instantly spend it because of how terran production works.
Also, one bad micro slip up can cause you to instantly lose all your marines to fungal / banelings / ect
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Blizzard could easily fix all the imbalances and make the game fun again, all they need to do is make fungal growth a slow spell. It will still do the damage, just instead of freezing units in place it will just slow them by 40%, just like original Queen ensnare worked in Brood War.
I mean if ensnare was lot harder to pull off, the queen was much more expensive and came in later and only had 1 useful spell, then why is the infestor 10x easier to use, had 3 ridiculously powerful spells and the fungal prevents units from moving?
I mean I just don't get it. In Brood War it was thought the queen and ensnare was balanced and it was so hard to use it pretty much did nothing, but the infestor is balanced in SC2? Now I know we have the Red Alert 2 designer on SC2 as the main guy to design SC2(who is responsible for hiring people at Blizzard?), but lets not make SC2 into a Red Alert 2 noob fest.
I also call for Dustin Browder and David Kim to be fired and for Rob Pardo who designed the originals SC and Brood War to take over multiplayer and make Starcraft 2 balanced and fun.
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Heres few things that could do it:
a) Reduce friendlyfire splash from siegetanks (dosent affect tvt/tvp too much)
b) You cant no more cancel creeptumor... (you should commit when you put the tumor to ground, instead of just pressing the cancel button and put it again when hellions are not there)
c) Fix the maps, Daybreak, cloudkingdom etc. maps where zergs can see everything with overlords came when zerg needed "Buff", now when the zerg is considered best race, they still have overlord cliffs which allows them to be prepared against everything. Scouting after fixing this wont be impossible.
d) Hatcheries _need_ larva cap, at lategame situations zergs doesnt spend anymoney to infranstructure when terrans and protosses need to spend thousands of minerals and gas so they can reinforce after battle
Not saying that all of these should come but some of these would be a beginning
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Yes Infestor is an issue, but the counter of the Infestor is the most important issue.
Why don't Terran players whine about Ghosts instead of Infestors ?
Ghost is one those units designed to counter Infestors, and they are pretty bad at it. They were OP (Snipe countered all the Z late game units), but they also were nerfed too hard by Blizzard. One of the key to balance WoL Infestors is the Ghost in my opinion.
My 2 cents. (from a mid-high master league Zerg player)
I would love to see Terran players agree with me on this point.
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On December 26 2012 15:22 Zombo Joe wrote:
I think its naive to think HotS will some how fix the gameplay.
If anything it looks like it will create more problems.
The thing is that the additional units/upgrades gives them more levers to pull. There are now enough units that they can afford to nerf a unit into complete uselessness in one matchup if they had to do it to keep it balanced in the other ones.
In WoL, there just were not enough units - every nerf affected almost every matchup - so they were forced to make very tiny changes.
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On December 27 2012 10:44 Shade_CsT wrote:
Yes Infestor is an issue, but the counter of the Infestor is the most important issue.
Why don't Terran players whine about Ghosts instead of Infestors ?
Ghost is one those units designed to counter Infestors, and they are pretty bad at it. They were OP (Snipe countered all the Z late game units), but they also were nerfed too hard by Blizzard. One of the key to balance WoL Infestors is the Ghost in my opinion.
My 2 cents. (from a mid-high master league Zerg player)
I would love to see Terran players agree with me on this point.
Terran here.
I do agree that the Ghost is quite horrible against infestors. However, I'm also quite sad about the fact that snipe got nerfed so heavily. It is true that it countered zerg tier 3, but the nerf should have been just a reduction of snipe damage against massive. I mean c'mon, what kind of a snipe is it if you cant kill a marine?
I also have to bring up the fact that snipe requires crazy micro and full attention. King MVP was able to do it of course, but I do not find snipe to be a problem among the not-so-hardcore players.
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On December 27 2012 10:44 Shade_CsT wrote:
Yes Infestor is an issue, but the counter of the Infestor is the most important issue.
Why don't Terran players whine about Ghosts instead of Infestors ?
Ghost is one those units designed to counter Infestors, and they are pretty bad at it. They were OP (Snipe countered all the Z late game units), but they also were nerfed too hard by Blizzard. One of the key to balance WoL Infestors is the Ghost in my opinion.
My 2 cents. (from a mid-high master league Zerg player)
I would love to see Terran players agree with me on this point.
Because siege tanks counter infestors same way as ghosts does. Snipe them from long range. Its already a bit hard to control lategame terran army vs zerg(vikings, ravens, siegetanks, bio). We dont really want one more micro intensive unit added to that. The old ghosts used to replace vikings and ravens and made that terran doesnt need to control bio+siege tanks that much in a fights, because you could focus on sniping.
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Also I do not think Zerg players was given enough time to learn how to deal with mass ghosts (I think transition to banelings or roaches would be great).
The fix of the ghost should have been its gas cost. The perfect amount would be 125/150 in my opinion. How often do you see a Terran player in TVP that has so much overgas... Terran just has no gas sink.
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On December 27 2012 17:22 graNite wrote:
Also I do not think Zerg players was given enough time to learn how to deal with mass ghosts (I think transition to banelings or roaches would be great).
The fix of the ghost should have been its gas cost. The perfect amount would be 125/150 in my opinion. How often do you see a Terran player in TVP that has so much overgas... Terran just has no gas sink.
Well, when you made ghosts you also camped with them behind planetary fortress and there was just no way zerg could break that, and it was broken and stupid. I just wish they would have removed planetary fortress from the game instead of nerfing ghosts.
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On December 27 2012 10:44 Shade_CsT wrote:
Yes Infestor is an issue, but the counter of the Infestor is the most important issue.
Why don't Terran players whine about Ghosts instead of Infestors ?
Ghost is one those units designed to counter Infestors, and they are pretty bad at it. They were OP (Snipe countered all the Z late game units), but they also were nerfed too hard by Blizzard. One of the key to balance WoL Infestors is the Ghost in my opinion.
My 2 cents. (from a mid-high master league Zerg player)
I would love to see Terran players agree with me on this point.
I agree, but the main reason why ghosts were nerfed, is the crosswheel snipe bug...
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On December 27 2012 17:55 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 10:44 Shade_CsT wrote:
Yes Infestor is an issue, but the counter of the Infestor is the most important issue.
Why don't Terran players whine about Ghosts instead of Infestors ?
Ghost is one those units designed to counter Infestors, and they are pretty bad at it. They were OP (Snipe countered all the Z late game units), but they also were nerfed too hard by Blizzard. One of the key to balance WoL Infestors is the Ghost in my opinion.
My 2 cents. (from a mid-high master league Zerg player)
I would love to see Terran players agree with me on this point. I agree, but the main reason why ghosts were nerfed, is the crosswheel snipe bug...
which also exists for the infestor >_>#
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I dont care what knowitalls on teamliquid think. I for one stopped playing the game after they broke it. I have no more fun playing and I think Terran has huge issues and have been saying it for a long time. Hopefully alot of other players stop playing and the game dies and a new one can take its place. How this balance issue has been handled is a disgrace and I think its very unprofessional. Terran got nerfed the second they won a tournament example (tanks, reapers,medivac speed,ghost).
So please just give it a breake and remove the race.
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On December 27 2012 17:25 mazqo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 17:22 graNite wrote:
Also I do not think Zerg players was given enough time to learn how to deal with mass ghosts (I think transition to banelings or roaches would be great).
The fix of the ghost should have been its gas cost. The perfect amount would be 125/150 in my opinion. How often do you see a Terran player in TVP that has so much overgas... Terran just has no gas sink. Well, when you made ghosts you also camped with them behind planetary fortress and there was just no way zerg could break that, and it was broken and stupid. I just wish they would have removed planetary fortress from the game instead of nerfing ghosts.
Mass banelings to break in and remax on whatever you want. That's the counter to mass planetary/ghost/tank.
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On December 27 2012 17:25 mazqo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 17:22 graNite wrote:
Also I do not think Zerg players was given enough time to learn how to deal with mass ghosts (I think transition to banelings or roaches would be great).
The fix of the ghost should have been its gas cost. The perfect amount would be 125/150 in my opinion. How often do you see a Terran player in TVP that has so much overgas... Terran just has no gas sink. Well, when you made ghosts you also camped with them behind planetary fortress and there was just no way zerg could break that, and it was broken and stupid. I just wish they would have removed planetary fortress from the game instead of nerfing ghosts.
Or zerg could try to use nydus and drops. The maps are no longer what they used to be (metalopolis and shakuras).
Besides, nobody else in the world used ghosts at a success at a pro level but MVP in a single tournament. It was immediately deemed as imba and nerfed.
Zerg uses gglords ggfestors vs every race on every map and almost always wins. It has been happening for a year already. Nobody at Blizzard nerfed it despite the huge outrage of the community. GGFestors ggLords is far more broken and stupid than snipe ever was which required at least some apm and positioning.
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On December 27 2012 18:35 truthUnderVeil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 17:25 mazqo wrote:On December 27 2012 17:22 graNite wrote:
Also I do not think Zerg players was given enough time to learn how to deal with mass ghosts (I think transition to banelings or roaches would be great).
The fix of the ghost should have been its gas cost. The perfect amount would be 125/150 in my opinion. How often do you see a Terran player in TVP that has so much overgas... Terran just has no gas sink. Well, when you made ghosts you also camped with them behind planetary fortress and there was just no way zerg could break that, and it was broken and stupid. I just wish they would have removed planetary fortress from the game instead of nerfing ghosts. Or zerg could try to use nydus and drops. The maps are no longer what they used to be (metalopolis and shakuras). Besides, nobody else in the world used ghosts at a success at a pro level but MVP in a single tournament. It was immediately deemed as imba and nerfed. Zerg uses gglords ggfestors vs every race on every map and almost always wins. It has been happening for a year already. Nobody at Blizzard nerfed it despite the huge outrage of the community. GGFestors ggLords is far more broken and stupid than snipe ever was which required at least some apm and positioning.
You're making fun of yourself now. In ZvP infestor broodlord is prevalent, correct. Though there are plenty of other playstyles around; dimaga's ling/bling+overlord drops, stephano 11 min roach/ling max, double upgrade ling into mutalisk play.
In ZvT It's more ling/bling/ultralisk/infestor than anything, broodlords don't really occur except for late late game and/or versus mech.
In ZvZ I doubt many people go broodlord/infestor, since most people stick with range upgrades and thus infestor/roach/hydra. And when double melee upgrading. ultralisks are really attractive before transferring to broodlords.
Broodlords and infestor are our latest tier composition, so of course it turns out like this late late game, but don't lie to yourself by saying it's prominentely used in every matchup.
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What?!?!?!?!? Infestor/BL is super prevalent. It's what gives rise to the P word and what everyone is qq'ing about. ZvZ is the only one because it often doesn't get there,and thank god for that because that would be terrible. I remember watching a ZvZ on Daybreak that was terrible to watch with free units vs free units, along with that Miya vs Scarlett game on Atlantis. I actually thought Queen buff was someone justified because people believe ZvZ would be less volatile, but if it's like Scarlett vs Miya, then I'd much rather have micro ling/bling wars like DRG vs Effort.
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On December 26 2012 22:15 WhiteSatin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 09:36 Coffee Zombie wrote:
Apart from Infestors, the whole thing boils down to larvae. In the past, you needed larvae to defend early pushes and to shoo off the contain from Reactor Hellion Expand quickly. Zerg players didn't like it. I vividly remember the endless inanity of "making Roaches is unacceptable because it means we can't drone/tech optimally". I am serious. The damage IdrA and Artosis have done to Zerg players' mindset cannot be underestimated.
The issue is that, as we all have (to our boredom) noticed over the last half a year, the Zerg economy, if unhindered, is broken. The ability to use all your production slots on nothing but economy is way too good to exist, except for the fact that in the past you could force Zerg to use larvae for defense. This meant both sides made army, econ and teched a bit. It was fair (though understandably felt bad for Z because they were literally being damaged).
Also, the only really boring part about Reactor Hellion was that T went for it almost always. The opener itself played out entertainingly enough: both sides had high stakes (immediate, long-lasting loss of map control for Terran, severe economic damage or outright game loss for Zerg) and there was lots of action happening. Terrans were busy trying to snipe tumors, Z was busy trying to sneak them past the Hellions, players had to watch their Queens/Hellions constantly to prevent a Hellion/Speedling snipe, respectively, and so forth. The most important thing of all, though, was that it led to an actual midgame.
And from here we get to the cascade effect the Queendralisk buff had. The early game implications are clear for all to see. But the ripple effects? Dear god. First, creep spread easily goes out of control, where spreading it was an effort before. The better economy allows for a very early swell of Infestors, which helps make Zerg safe and essentially kills the midgame, from which we get into quick, fast, Infestor/T3 comp with the accompanying tech switches. The sheer scale of the change is perhaps best realized when one stops to consider that in the past a 17 minute Hive was risky and greedy. Such a far cry from our current, absurdly safe 12 minute Hive timings, isn't it? That's all because Z had to invest into a midgame to fight off the Terran midgame (which they could get to due to less creep and slower Zerg development). And damn, was that midgame ever good.
The slower Hive timings also made the late game more bearable - Terran had more time to get their infrastructure up to contend with Zerg's endgame composition. The fundamental character of it was then, and still is expensive, inflexible Terran infrastructure making very narrow anti-1-unit counters that have no other use vs. a flexible Zerg infrastructure making little but threats.
The greatest casualty of the Queendralisk patch hasn't been balance, though - a certain amount of imbalance you can work around and it is even entertaining for some. The greatest casualties have been fun (the game has become dull), the idea that the game makes any kind of sense (the kind of imbalance and it's degree make the games feel just plain stupid). I also can't tell good and bad Zergs apart anymore. In the past, great creep spread was an achievement. There were brilliant holds, good game sense, great flanks. Mutas hadn't been eclipsed so badly and so were an actual (not just stubbornly stylistic) option. Now it's the same dull monotony where it feels like the sheer, absurd, dominant power of some key units does more work than the player. One of the best posts regarding this issue that I've seen in a while - and that also confirms my idea that the Queen buff has ruined the match up even more than the fungal damage output
Just wanted to chime in and agree that this post is fantastic. It hits the nail on the head, and summarizes what I've been thinking for quite a while now. I don't think forcefields and warpgate are limiting game mechanics as much as inject larvae is. When one race's macro mechanic is so far ahead of the other two races that they can max in 12 minutes when undamaged, all other game mechanics become a slave to that. Maps can't be too big because zerg economy is too powerful when it can't be harassed (this is mitigated by warp gate to some extent in ZvP). Zerg defense can't be too strong because it allows this macro mechanic to be exploited. Everything revolves around the most powerful ability in the game - the ability to have a powerful economy quickly.
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On December 27 2012 19:20 kaluro wrote:
In ZvT It's more ling/bling/ultralisk/infestor than anything, broodlords don't really occur except for late late game and/or versus mech.
In ZvZ I doubt many people go broodlord/infestor, since most people stick with range upgrades and thus infestor/roach/hydra. And when double melee upgrading. ultralisks are really attractive before transferring to broodlords.
I am at a frigging awe how ignorant people are. Brood lord infestor not used in TvZ? Ok!
I guess the guys who made a wiki about it on liquipedia are just weird then:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Infestor/Corruptor/Brood_Lord_(vs._Terran)
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The idea that if Terran leaves Zerg's economy untouched, Terran will be at a significant disadvantage is the biggest lie perpetuated in SC2. I'll skip right to the facts, and give an actual example from a very recent game, what many Terrans cite as a nightmare scenario:
12 mins into a TvZ, Zerg is on 3 bases and has 7 Queens with their oh-so-fearsome 5 range, 80 Drones, and Creep halfway across the map. Terran has done a standard Hellion opening, killed 0 Drones, both sides have left each other untouched.
Zerg has 1-1, Spire Finished, 9 Mutalisks and 2 more Queens on their way, baneling Nest, and 52 Zerglings.. Zerg has 146 supply.
The Terran, who is supply blocked by the way, has 137, a mere 9 supply difference, which would probably be even if not for the supply block. Terran is also on 3 bases and has 72 SCVs and 4 Mules mining. 3 Medivacs, 1 Hellion, 5 Tanks, and 29 1-1 Marines.
Income? Terran is ahead by 300 minerals a minute, gas is roughly the same.
These are the facts of the game between DRG and Bomber on Metropolis. So scary that Zerg macro, right? Bomber easily denies DRG's building 4th with a drop, then gets a supply lead after a cost efficient exchange, which he maintains until he eventually wins the game.
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Let's look at another example, no theorycrafting here, just facts. DRG vs Yoda on Cloud Kingdom, IPL 5:
At 10:45, the first real exchange occurs. DRG attacks Yoda's 3rd with some Speedlings, which Yoda defends with Hellions. At this exact moment, here are the stats:
Terran and Zerg both on 3 bases. Terran has 60 SVCs, 6 Hellions and 22 1-1 Marines. Zerg has 69 Drones, 6 Queens and 38 Zerglings. Supplies are virtually even 106 for Terran, 105 for Zerg.
In that initial attack DRG loses 2 Zerglings and kills nothing. Both sides have killed 0 workers. At 12 minutes, here are the stats:
DRG has lost 6 units, Yoda has lost 1. Supplies 120 vs 135, Yoda is ahead. Wait, I thought Terran couldn't keep up with Zerg macro! Someone tell Yoda to stop making units, he's not supposed to be able to!
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On December 27 2012 23:57 sitromit wrote:
after a cost efficient exchange
Love this delicate way to describe DRG blindly charging his army offcreep in the worst position ever.
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On December 28 2012 00:30 TheDwf wrote:Love this delicate way to describe DRG blindly charging his army offcreep in the worst position ever.
This argument is about economy and production, not strategy. DRG made a strategic mistake, lost the game, which is normal. The thing is, people would have you believe, that Zerg can afford to trade cost inefficiently with Terran, which is clearly not the case.
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there are a lot more things that make zerg broken than just bl infestor... but blizzard is too blind to see any of it.
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How about if fungal only roots on creep? Otherwise it only slows a bit. Would make sense intuitively and would maintain the defensive capacity of the zerg but lessen the capacity for agression somewhat until very lategame.
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You can all keep whining about fungal, but meanwhile the biggest problem is the possibility to be greedy and safe:
- Z can be GREEDY and SAFE
- T can be GREEDY, but NOT SAFE
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On December 28 2012 00:42 KawaiiRice wrote:
there are a lot more things that make zerg broken than just bl infestor... but blizzard is too blind to see any of it.
Please gives us your opinion Kawaii, I'd really love to hear the insight a good pro has on this situation.
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On December 28 2012 01:04 Snowbear wrote:
You can all keep whining about fungal, but meanwhile the biggest problem is the possibility to be greedy and safe:
- Z can be GREEDY and SAFE
- T can be GREEDY, but NOT SAFE
Somebody should tell that to Gumiho :d
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Great post Nebbish. In general I agree with all of your points.
I fear that the new units and abilities in HotS will make TvZ much, much harder. Its hard not to feel sorry for Terrans now a days and I expect more posts like these once HotS reaches the masses.
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On December 28 2012 01:04 Snowbear wrote:
You can all keep whining about fungal, but meanwhile the biggest problem is the possibility to be greedy and safe:
- Z can be GREEDY and SAFE
- T can be GREEDY, but NOT SAFE
Truth, as far as we know.
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On December 28 2012 01:24 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 01:04 Snowbear wrote:
You can all keep whining about fungal, but meanwhile the biggest problem is the possibility to be greedy and safe:
- Z can be GREEDY and SAFE
- T can be GREEDY, but NOT SAFE Somebody should tell that to Gumiho :d
good ol bling bust ftw xd
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On December 28 2012 01:37 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 01:04 Snowbear wrote:
You can all keep whining about fungal, but meanwhile the biggest problem is the possibility to be greedy and safe:
- Z can be GREEDY and SAFE
- T can be GREEDY, but NOT SAFE That's right, but there's a semantical problem here. You're not playing greedy when you're playing safe.
Since the queen doesn't need larvae to be produced and offers a good defence for the zerg you can be safe without hurting your drone production (whereas defending with lings would).
It's like eating tons of nutella without getting fat !
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On December 28 2012 00:42 KawaiiRice wrote:
there are a lot more things that make zerg broken than just bl infestor... but blizzard is too blind to see any of it.
The OP talked about one other important aspect which is the fact that Terran can't seriously punish Zerg greed without all-ining.
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On December 27 2012 23:57 sitromit wrote:
The idea that if Terran leaves Zerg's economy untouched, Terran will be at a significant disadvantage is the biggest lie perpetuated in SC2. I'll skip right to the facts, and give an actual example from a very recent game, what many Terrans cite as a nightmare scenario:
12 mins into a TvZ, Zerg is on 3 bases and has 7 Queens with their oh-so-fearsome 5 range, 80 Drones, and Creep halfway across the map. Terran has done a standard Hellion opening, killed 0 Drones, both sides have left each other untouched.
Zerg has 1-1, Spire Finished, 9 Mutalisks and 2 more Queens on their way, baneling Nest, and 52 Zerglings.. Zerg has 146 supply.
The Terran, who is supply blocked by the way, has 137, a mere 9 supply difference, which would probably be even if not for the supply block. Terran is also on 3 bases and has 72 SCVs and 4 Mules mining. 3 Medivacs, 1 Hellion, 5 Tanks, and 29 1-1 Marines.
Income? Terran is ahead by 300 minerals a minute, gas is roughly the same.
These are the facts of the game between DRG and Bomber on Metropolis. So scary that Zerg macro, right? Bomber easily denies DRG's building 4th with a drop, then gets a supply lead after a cost efficient exchange, which he maintains until he eventually wins the game.
On December 28 2012 00:22 sitromit wrote:
Let's look at another example, no theorycrafting here, just facts. DRG vs Yoda on Cloud Kingdom, IPL 5:
At 10:45, the first real exchange occurs. DRG attacks Yoda's 3rd with some Speedlings, which Yoda defends with Hellions. At this exact moment, here are the stats:
Terran and Zerg both on 3 bases. Terran has 60 SVCs, 6 Hellions and 22 1-1 Marines. Zerg has 69 Drones, 6 Queens and 38 Zerglings. Supplies are virtually even 106 for Terran, 105 for Zerg.
In that initial attack DRG loses 2 Zerglings and kills nothing. Both sides have killed 0 workers. At 12 minutes, here are the stats:
DRG has lost 6 units, Yoda has lost 1. Supplies 120 vs 135, Yoda is ahead. Wait, I thought Terran couldn't keep up with Zerg macro! Someone tell Yoda to stop making units, he's not supposed to be able to!
It's when the exchanges actually occur that terran has the short end of the stick. Infestors don't allow terran to control the exchanges, which generally allow the zerg to come out at least even when exchanges do occur. And then in the lower leagues the problem is even worse; you see entire armies of 30+ marines disappear in a matter of seconds.
And then what's replaced faster, 20 marines or 20 zerglings? 40 zerglings? 60 zerglings? But wait, larvae mechanics aren't limited by production buildings or queues. They're limited by the total income and larvae count.
In BW early game, the real reason zerg needed a 3rd base is because they needed a 3rd gas for their core gas-heavy units, not because they needed more minerals. They couldn't swarm you with just zerglings because it was cost-inefficient..very cost-inefficient both money and larvae-wise. Even if you threw lurkers and mutas in the mix, it was still pretty cost-inefficient for zerg because there was a limited amount of larvae. But those were BW zerglings with retarded AI and no spawn larvae queens.
In SC2, now you have zergs wanting that 3rd base not primarily for the gas, but for the minerals instead. This combined with the fungal root and the seemingly unlimited amount of larvae at their disposal, allows the zerg to make lopsided battle of attrition trades and still come out ahead. The more econ the zerg has, the more the terran has to kill to just stay even. Realistically, the terran can only get about 4 zerglings per marine, tops. Break even is 2 zerglings for 1 marine. What happens when the zerg can afford to lose that? What happens when 15 marines get fungaled and they lose 20 zerglings? No zerglings? And this is all still ignoring the production time factor.
And how much of an army can the terran realistically amass for a full engage? And how often can the terran fully engage a hit and run squad of zerglings and infestors? And then how often can the terran hit a timing where the zerg has no money or larvae? All of these conditions have to be met in order for a terran to win a game at a high level.
So keeping up with the macro with no interactions isn't the problem, its playing battle of attrition handicapped with a time limit on top of that. In order for the terran to win, we have to have the better economy under 15 minutes, or whenever the broodlords do come out, for a long enough time so that the terran can build enough production buildings and units to overwhelm the zerg . They should've at least made spawn larvae a research and put it at 1 larvae for hatch tech, 2 larvae for lair tech, and 3 larvae for hive and made the infestor some sort of artillery unit, not an energy spellcaster.
If the economies are even, zerg will have an upper advantage. Not saying that it's an insurmountable advantage, but its definitely in favor of zerg. If the terran takes too long, zerg will have an advantage. Not impossible to overcome, but its still in favor of zerg.
This just goes to show how idiotic Blizzard was in rushing the release of this game, how poorly it was balanced and thought through, and how it is not one, single problem that is the cause of the imbalances, but multiple problems that have compounded on each other over the years that has led us to today.
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On December 27 2012 23:57 sitromit wrote:
The idea that if Terran leaves Zerg's economy untouched, Terran will be at a significant disadvantage is the biggest lie perpetuated in SC2. I'll skip right to the facts, and give an actual example from a very recent game, what many Terrans cite as a nightmare scenario:
12 mins into a TvZ, Zerg is on 3 bases and has 7 Queens with their oh-so-fearsome 5 range, 80 Drones, and Creep halfway across the map. Terran has done a standard Hellion opening, killed 0 Drones, both sides have left each other untouched.
Zerg has 1-1, Spire Finished, 9 Mutalisks and 2 more Queens on their way, baneling Nest, and 52 Zerglings.. Zerg has 146 supply.
The Terran, who is supply blocked by the way, has 137, a mere 9 supply difference, which would probably be even if not for the supply block. Terran is also on 3 bases and has 72 SCVs and 4 Mules mining. 3 Medivacs, 1 Hellion, 5 Tanks, and 29 1-1 Marines.
Income? Terran is ahead by 300 minerals a minute, gas is roughly the same.
These are the facts of the game between DRG and Bomber on Metropolis. So scary that Zerg macro, right? Bomber easily denies DRG's building 4th with a drop, then gets a supply lead after a cost efficient exchange, which he maintains until he eventually wins the game.
On December 28 2012 00:22 sitromit wrote:
Let's look at another example, no theorycrafting here, just facts. DRG vs Yoda on Cloud Kingdom, IPL 5:
At 10:45, the first real exchange occurs. DRG attacks Yoda's 3rd with some Speedlings, which Yoda defends with Hellions. At this exact moment, here are the stats:
Terran and Zerg both on 3 bases. Terran has 60 SVCs, 6 Hellions and 22 1-1 Marines. Zerg has 69 Drones, 6 Queens and 38 Zerglings. Supplies are virtually even 106 for Terran, 105 for Zerg.
In that initial attack DRG loses 2 Zerglings and kills nothing. Both sides have killed 0 workers. At 12 minutes, here are the stats:
DRG has lost 6 units, Yoda has lost 1. Supplies 120 vs 135, Yoda is ahead. Wait, I thought Terran couldn't keep up with Zerg macro! Someone tell Yoda to stop making units, he's not supposed to be able to!
I don't think you quite understand the issue.
The problem is that zerg can get to this situation easily, quicker and safely. Whereas terran has to play extremely risky in order to keep up which zerg can easily punish.
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So while i have to say that the OP is a good post i feel as though it is a completely biased for terran, (obviously lol) and because of this there are a few flaws in his complaints.
1. Timing attacks.
For the most part i have to agree that the 4-6 queen build allowed zergs to drone up like they want and this allows for the much scarier mid to late game as zerg will have a lot of economy. But to say that there are no timing attacks i feel is retarded, even with 4-6 queens a good timing attack will overrun it if it isn't spotted or scouted correctly. This can be done easily with the hellions to deny vision. And these timing attacks have to come a bit later to hit a timing before the zerg player finishes droning and before lair tech kicks in.
2. “Unforgiveness”
If you want to talk about unforgiveness then lets talk about it. Every point except for the final bullet point has been a weakness of marine tank/terran since the beginning of sc2. And the fact that you talk about it as though it is brand new is surprising to me.
Encountering a Zerg army with tanks unsieged.
This is the biggest issue with stupid terrans, you have a few different ways to keep a vision ahead of you to tell you to stop a-moving your crap and seige up. These happen to be a scan ahead to spot for my army or even a stimmed marine running forward or down a branch off to make sure the zerg army isn't bearing down on you or flanking you. Also you should never a-move on creep as a ling based army can crash into you before you know it, this is the whole reason why hellion's should be used to deny creep like they have even before the queen range buff. Not to mention that if you keep watching it you can deny a lot and most zergs under gm wont replace creep tumors, especially if you kill the queens.
Lowered supply depot (see zergling harass below).
This is another thing that has been around since the beginning of sc2. Really not much to talk about because i'll talk about another part of it later when i reach your attention based play. But there are a few ways to counter this, simply watch your minimap. Look at it constantly, you're terran and usually don't have a lot of map vision so when something pops up you should be pretty quick to notice and raise the depos. Daybreak you should have a bunker at your third and your army out at the watch tower. Ohana should have the army at the third with the depos raised at the nat anyways. kind of the same with entombed etc etc. There are ways to get around this, once again i have to say stop being bad and watch your minimap :D
Not scanning ahead to scout burrowed banelings.
This is actually something i havn't played around enough. But i can understand if you don't know about burrowed banelings then the tactic works out well, if there is burrow baneling play out you can either save up scans or force yourself to build a raven. I think the better choice is getting out a raven because it is either the cost of the raven or 4-5 scans to reach the zerg base on most maps. This should really not hurt your army more than once (even though the first explosion can be game ending)
Clumped-up army getting surprise-fungaled.
Once again don't a-move forward into a zerg army like a retard. Stim marines ahead to see whats going on, scan etc. The only time a zerg should get a super good fungal is if they incorporate burrow play, be smart and play well and you wont get punished. Also if you do spread out try to get a bit more medivacs as they are generally a good way to counteract the damage from infestors. But still the biggest thing here is scout around your army, if you arnt then you're being an idiot and a-moving forward.
So overall the main counter to this is that zergs for the first year before the patch had to learn how to be patient against rine/tank pushes and how to spread out so that siege tanks didn't absolutely rape. This control with lings has carried over to the now because if a zerg a-moves into a well spread terran army like up the ramp at the fourth on Cloud kingdom most likely they will get obliterated. Most of the time zergs win because terran's get ahead of themselves and even after killing the ling army they will clump marines and stim forward and then losing everything to fungals. Be patient, be slow.
3: Infestors
I agree completely with infestors, they are hard to kill and they are used against everything terran have.I agree with everything but that you're underestimating the power of cloaked ghosts and nukes.
4:The late game.
This one is tricky but when it comes to Bio you are switching places with the zerg. The zerg can not remax on bl/corruptor easily where you can keep pumping out marines/vikings. While yes the cost difference is there it is essentially the same thing when a zerg fights a protoss army pre broodlords. The zerg army dies over and over but deals damage to eventually overwhelm it. But for terran the main threat of the bl/festor army should be the festor which is why in the late game you should really get out a few cloaked ghosts and either snipe or emp the infestors as they WILL be clumped. (Every zerg i watch has them clumped and pretty much no zerg has overseers) and as soon as the fungal is gone if you spread out your bio and collapse in in a concave and not a-move into it then you can win. But i agree that this fight is much harder for terran than it is for zerg.
Mech i have to agree with everything you're saying. It is extremely expensive, anyone can tell you that but i kind of feel as though you're hyperbolizing the issues a bit.
5. Attention
This is actually the one that i wanted to respond to because this is the major point that i feel that there are flaws in your post. I'm not going to talk about the points that you put up there because they are completely correct, but they are completely part of the terran's view and the reason why i think it is a bit biased.
Terran drops
This is the equivalent to those burrowed infestor harass as it comes to attention from both sides, Both will que up the drop/its whit it actually being a bit more favored to the terran in the amount of attention as the zerg has to lay down each of the ITs in its que where as the terran simply ques up. When a terran does this they stop watching it until it is almost landed then as it lands they stim and stop paying attention as they should have another drop or a push going on at the same time. If it is a push the terran can now freely push forward further than before while the zerg army and attention is trying to deal with these drops where the terran is free. And once the terran hears the marine cry out for help they jump back, load up and fly off just slightly to be ready to drop again. This is just as bad if not worse than the infestors because for a zerg to get the infestors in they have to start watching as soon as the infestors reach the terran base and be on the look out for missile turrets or any other sort of detection to pull back their infestors at any time.
Hellion Run bys.
While these are closer to the comment about mutas. the hellions are usually forfeit much like the ling run bys and with out any sort of wall for the zerg to raise at any point to block even if they spot it incoming. If they are forfeit then they can be ran into a mineral line and completely destroy it before the terran looks back at them to either retreat or continue on (assuming they arn't surrounded by ling/roach.
Nukes
These are very rare as terrans refuse to get ghosts. But this is probably one of the most effective harass that the terran has if they can drop more than 1 at a time and it is VERY easy to do attention wise. Make 1-3 ghosts, make 1-3 nukes, Cloak the ghosts and que up nuke and forget about them. Where as the zerg hears the sound or the alert and has to drop everything they are doing and find the nuke, evacuate it keep it there until the nuke drops then come back and move the units like drone back to mining. The nukes even kill larvae which is huge for this part of the game.
There are of course different types of harass and most of them from the terran don't require a lot of attention but they are really not used as well as they are extremely expensive like vikings landing or ravens dropping auto turrets. But these are out of the way for terran and so most dont. Its like most zergs don't get burrow so terran's really don't have to worry to much about burrowed infestors or burrowed banes where as the drops and hellions are easily there for terran to do their harass.
Conclusion:
I'm not trying to say the game is balanced, but my point here is that terran's are their own race and have their own ways to control the zerg. Just most terran's get ahead of themselves and lose to the zerg strengths, play smart and use all of your race's skills and you may find a lot more zerg will crumble.
Also HotS adds widow mine drops which is immensely hard to deal with :D
TL:DR
Terran has just as many attention controllers if not more than zerg, Please look at both sides when making a post please :D
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The egg health nerf seems to help things quite a bit. There are deeper game design issues that give Zerg an inherent edge (IdrA observed this himself when he originally chose Zerg), but at least now Colossus/Thor/Tanks are able to kill most of the eggs if it's an even engagement.
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I had a long reply to you UltiBahamut, but then I just couldn't be arsed since it was such a *facepalm* post. You are ignoring that dynamics have changed, creep reaching further means you have more time as zerg, the terran is in more urgency to hit his timing attack, so easier to catch unsieged etc etc. The fact that small harrasses from the terran don't work anymore and creep is extending so much forwards changes the whole dynamic of the MU and how the terran needs to play.
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I've always wondered why a foreigner Terran hasn't the slightest chance against a Korean Zerg, but tons of foreign Zergs are even favored against Korean Terrans.
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I really like the discussion here. I see good points from every site of the medal. Overall, in my opinion, the Therad Writer is right, that are some big issues in TvZ. But I'm hoping that Blizzard fix these soon enough.
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On December 28 2012 06:27 Snow948 wrote:
I really like the discussion here. I see good points from every site of the medal. Overall, in my opinion, the Therad Writer is right, that are some big issues in TvZ. But I'm hoping that Blizzard fix these soon enough.
Before everyone goes to LoL T_T
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On December 28 2012 06:28 honkeybeef wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 06:27 Snow948 wrote:
I really like the discussion here. I see good points from every site of the medal. Overall, in my opinion, the Therad Writer is right, that are some big issues in TvZ. But I'm hoping that Blizzard fix these soon enough. Before everyone goes to LoL T_T
Too late for that imo.
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I think looking at Tournament statistics helps but a balance chance should not be made on it. It depends on the games. Anyone can look at a chart and see a terran 100% loss rate for example. This could be the result of a ton of 2rax all ins. Blizzard seems to do this a lot rather than actually have set devs watching matches to see what could improve or even test things themselves. They test on the PTR, where players follow the meta that they are already playing and won't try anything new.
The game needs to be "Every race has an EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to win". Not "Every race need to have equal win rates".
I cannot quote but I do remember Blizzard saying that they had a near 33% win ratio for each race and they thought this was a success. Which this may be the case, it is not a sign of balance.
Let's see what happens in Hots and see where we go from there.
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sory but all this arguments are irrelevant .. ultras are after 20minute mark to incostefficient and BL infestor ist THE SLOWEST ARMY COMBO!! when the zerg is attacking you, the terrans should go for basetrade and zerg will stop his attack >_> (terran insta win a basetrade cause of high dps and lifts) and zerg is just "dancing" without making any damage. and another problem of zerg: if terran goes for his 4th base zerg have to take a 5th, but the bases are so far from each so the zerg cannot protect them all! terra should snipe the hatches and "dance" from left to right --> zerg have no chance cause of the slow army combo and must go for a basetrade, wich terran actually win in usual ... and zerg needed range buff because before this patch the helion banshee haress was to strong and the terran was able to kill 2 queen ez just with helions(!).
sorry for my bad english btw
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thats not true, at the end of the base-trade zerg still has the better army and will in most of the cases still win
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On December 28 2012 07:52 monsta wrote:sory but all this arguments are irrelevant .. ultras are after 20minute mark to incostefficient and BL infestor ist THE SLOWEST ARMY COMBO!! when the zerg is attacking you, the terrans should go for basetrade and zerg will stop his attack >_> (terran insta win a basetrade cause of high dps and lifts) and zerg is just "dancing" without making any damage. and another problem of zerg: if terran goes for his 4th base zerg have to take a 5th, but the bases are so far from each so the zerg cannot protect them all! terra should snipe the hatches and "dance" from left to right --> zerg have no chance cause of the slow army combo and must go for a basetrade, wich terran actually win in usual ... and zerg needed range buff because before this patch the helion banshee haress was to strong and the terran was able to kill 2 queen ez just with helions(!). sorry for my bad english btw
That's true. However, zerg can stall with fungals and spines for the army to come back.
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On December 28 2012 07:52 monsta wrote:sory but all this arguments are irrelevant .. ultras are after 20minute mark to incostefficient and BL infestor ist THE SLOWEST ARMY COMBO!! when the zerg is attacking you, the terrans should go for basetrade and zerg will stop his attack >_> (terran insta win a basetrade cause of high dps and lifts) and zerg is just "dancing" without making any damage. and another problem of zerg: if terran goes for his 4th base zerg have to take a 5th, but the bases are so far from each so the zerg cannot protect them all! terra should snipe the hatches and "dance" from left to right --> zerg have no chance cause of the slow army combo and must go for a basetrade, wich terran actually win in usual ... and zerg needed range buff because before this patch the helion banshee haress was to strong and the terran was able to kill 2 queen ez just with helions(!). sorry for my bad english btw
Holy shit! Who would have thought the answer to TvZ was that easy.
Now Korean Terrans have no excuse to get dominated by foreign Zergs.
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On December 28 2012 07:52 monsta wrote:sory but all this arguments are irrelevant .. ultras are after 20minute mark to incostefficient and BL infestor ist THE SLOWEST ARMY COMBO!! when the zerg is attacking you, the terrans should go for basetrade and zerg will stop his attack >_> (terran insta win a basetrade cause of high dps and lifts) and zerg is just "dancing" without making any damage. and another problem of zerg: if terran goes for his 4th base zerg have to take a 5th, but the bases are so far from each so the zerg cannot protect them all! terra should snipe the hatches and "dance" from left to right --> zerg have no chance cause of the slow army combo and must go for a basetrade, wich terran actually win in usual ... and zerg needed range buff because before this patch the helion banshee haress was to strong and the terran was able to kill 2 queen ez just with helions(!). sorry for my bad english btw
Hard to base trade against 30 spinecrawlers. A few infestors at the top of a ramp can stall for a really long time too.
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I Have to agee very much with the thread starter here.
I compared the Terran Raven with the Zerg Infestor and found some interesting things.
I have tought of it, and My idea to balance the match up would be like this.
Fungal Growth now cost 125 Energy(up from 75) >> Terrans Does always have to wait for 125 Energy for the HSM when Zergs can unleash such an extremley powerful spell already at 75. This change would make it much more fair.
Infested Terran now cost 50 Energy up from 25 >> Compared to the Auto-Turret I think they are quite equal in value/dps etc etc but the AT costs 50 already.
I think this could maybe workout....
Lets look at it the other way! Imagine if the Ravens HSM costed 75 Energy and the Auto-Turret 25 Energy. How Fearsome would the Raven then be? Think about it.
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On December 28 2012 08:11 PyroN wrote:
I Have to agee very much with the thread starter here.
I compared the Terran Raven with the Zerg Infestor and found some interesting things.
I have tought of it, and My idea to balance the match up would be like this.
Fungal Growth now cost 125 Energy(up from 75) >> Terrans Does always have to wait for 125 Energy for the HSM when Zergs can unleash such an extremley powerful spell already at 75. This change would make it much more fair.
Infested Terran now cost 50 Energy up from 25 >> Compared to the Auto-Turret I think they are quite equal in value/dps etc etc but the AT costs 50 already.
I think this could maybe workout....
Lets look at it the other way! Imagine if the Ravens HSM costed 75 Energy and the Auto-Turret 25 Energy. How Fearsome would the Raven then be? Think about it.
A stronger raven would bring a lot of balance in tvz. But..But.. What about TvP then? Well, the raven has no use there, since the HT is a hardcounter, so a raven buff won't affect tvp.
For some reason blizzard refuses to buff the raven, and I can't think of 1...
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On December 28 2012 08:11 PyroN wrote:
I Have to agee very much with the thread starter here.
I compared the Terran Raven with the Zerg Infestor and found some interesting things.
I have tought of it, and My idea to balance the match up would be like this.
Fungal Growth now cost 125 Energy(up from 75) >> Terrans Does always have to wait for 125 Energy for the HSM when Zergs can unleash such an extremley powerful spell already at 75. This change would make it much more fair.
Infested Terran now cost 50 Energy up from 25 >> Compared to the Auto-Turret I think they are quite equal in value/dps etc etc but the AT costs 50 already.
I think this could maybe workout....
Lets look at it the other way! Imagine if the Ravens HSM costed 75 Energy and the Auto-Turret 25 Energy. How Fearsome would the Raven then be? Think about it.
Or maybe they're different casters and should have different spells/energy requirements?
HT's super powerful 20 dps/sec AoE spell only costs 75 too. HSM takes more but is a guaranteed hit against broodlords/infestors.
It's like saying that yamato cannon should cost 25 energy because snipe is only 25 energy! And that makes sense!
edit: To clarify, I'm not against your changes. Just saying that the numbers should be 125 and 50 "because the raven has those" is a retarded comparison. They're different units with different spells, why should they cost the same energy?
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On December 28 2012 07:52 monsta wrote:sory but all this arguments are irrelevant .. ultras are after 20minute mark to incostefficient and BL infestor ist THE SLOWEST ARMY COMBO!! when the zerg is attacking you, the terrans should go for basetrade and zerg will stop his attack >_> (terran insta win a basetrade cause of high dps and lifts) and zerg is just "dancing" without making any damage. and another problem of zerg: if terran goes for his 4th base zerg have to take a 5th, but the bases are so far from each so the zerg cannot protect them all! terra should snipe the hatches and "dance" from left to right --> zerg have no chance cause of the slow army combo and must go for a basetrade, wich terran actually win in usual ... and zerg needed range buff because before this patch the helion banshee haress was to strong and the terran was able to kill 2 queen ez just with helions(!). sorry for my bad english btw
Ultras after 20 minute mark is cost inefficient if both players are maxed. Remaxing with ultras is really deadly or getting 3/3 max ultra infestor before terran maxes is also a really hard timing to stop.
Broodlord is slow but it is so goddamn cost efficient that you can leave like 3 broodlords, a few infestors and burrowed banes at home and defend fine vs anything except totally maxed terran using all of their units on base trading (including vikings). Terran does not insta win in a base trade at all, once zerg is in your production you just lose unless you killed basically all the expos and main.
At this point of the game zerg doesn't actually have to be one base up on terran. The tech is very cost efficient if you go infestors. Being 1 base up is something that you need vs toss / an old ideology that is not completely true anymore. Drops are bad vs mass spines which free up supply and cost none to defend.
Queen buff was meh, hellions are pretty shit vs queens now unless you're going all in and make 2 factory hellions. They should have increase range 1 instead of 2 right away or do something like buff queen speed even more on creep so that queens can't be kited by hellions on creep but wont be good off creep.
Look, the OP makes some good points, I dont agree with all of them as terran should be a race that requires more "attention". The unforgiving aspects I'm inclined to agree with. I'm not a terran fanboy I play random and this is how i feel about the matchup from both zerg's perspective and terran's
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On December 28 2012 08:55 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 08:11 PyroN wrote:
I Have to agee very much with the thread starter here.
I compared the Terran Raven with the Zerg Infestor and found some interesting things.
I have tought of it, and My idea to balance the match up would be like this.
Fungal Growth now cost 125 Energy(up from 75) >> Terrans Does always have to wait for 125 Energy for the HSM when Zergs can unleash such an extremley powerful spell already at 75. This change would make it much more fair.
Infested Terran now cost 50 Energy up from 25 >> Compared to the Auto-Turret I think they are quite equal in value/dps etc etc but the AT costs 50 already.
I think this could maybe workout....
Lets look at it the other way! Imagine if the Ravens HSM costed 75 Energy and the Auto-Turret 25 Energy. How Fearsome would the Raven then be? Think about it.
Or maybe they're different casters and should have different spells/energy requirements? HT's super powerful 20 dps/sec AoE spell only costs 75 too. HSM takes more but is a guaranteed hit against broodlords/infestors. It's like saying that yamato cannon should cost 25 energy because snipe is only 25 energy! And that makes sense! edit: To clarify, I'm not against your changes. Just saying that the numbers should be 125 and 50 "because the raven has those" is a retarded comparison. They're different units with different spells, why should they cost the same energy?
Sure they are different casters with different spells, but they are also the "Main Spellcasters" for the their representive race.
Thats why I compared them at the first time.
Also It was just an Idea I had. The spells for the infestor doesn´t need to be exactly the same cost as the Raven but......
The unit has to be looked over again.
I know that, You know that and Dustin Browder knows that :D
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I think zerg players are sick of hearing the infestor OP talk because I am seeing less infestor armies lately. I am having far fewer confrontations with mass infestors regardless of my (terran) army composition. The infestors aren't all that present even if the circumstance would be greatly beneficial for my zerg opponent to pump out the controversial caster.
Anyone else noticing or doing this?
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On December 29 2012 05:35 remarq wrote:
I think zerg players are sick of hearing the infestor OP talk because I am seeing less infestor armies lately. I am having far fewer confrontations with mass infestors regardless of my (terran) army composition. The infestors aren't all that present even if the circumstance would be greatly beneficial for my zerg opponent to pump out the controversial caster.
Anyone else noticing or doing this?
They don't need infestors to win the game. We see it a lot in pro games as well. Once every 2 to 3 games we'll see BL/infestor, but the other wins are achieved through busts and classic positional play.
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Brilliantly Written.
All Zergs would benefit from reading this.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jB3wf.jpg)
