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TvZ: A Summary of What's (Still) Broken

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Nebbish
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4 Posts
December 05 2012 02:17 GMT
#1
Blizzard just announced that they are applying a patch which will (a) reduce the range of a fungal from 9 to 8, (b) decrease infested terran egg health from 100 to 70, and (c) remove the Raven’s seeker missile upgrade.

It’s been all of two hours since this change was rolled out, but I am going to assert that this isn’t enough.

At the highest level of play, Terran versus Zerg has been broken since the queen patch 5+ months ago. However, rather than complain, or suggest radical changes, I’d prefer instead to review exactly why (in my humble opinion) TvZ is a broken matchup, and invite/encourage discussion from there. Some of the assertions contained herein have been made before, although others have not been broadly discussed at all. Regardless, I have yet to see a consolidated collection of what is wrong with TvZ and it is with this intention that I am writing.

That being said, keep in mind that the following analysis applies only to the matchup at high masters and above. Below that level, improvements to mechanics and basic decision-making skills will yield wins, period. One of the reasons that Blizzard has been so resistant to applying even minor changes to Wings of Liberty since mid-2012 is because the matchups are essentially well-balanced for the lower 98% of players. Granted, they are giving Zerg some attention now, but in my opinion they’re really not addressing the crux of what’s going wrong with the Terran versus Zerg matchup; a small nerf to infestors and removing the cost of seeker missile will not fix things.

Bio – about me
+ Show Spoiler +
I’m a mid-high masters Terran (I’ve finished top 8 more than once). Some of you may have seen me sporadically cast games with Halby over at his channel on youtube. I’ve appeared in a few small tournaments in the New England area, but I am by and large a casual player. I live in Boston, am old (31), and have a relatively low APM given my level of play.


Evidence that the matchup is broken
+ Show Spoiler +
Blizzard recently stated that the game is essentially well-balanced at all levels of play. It’s this statement, among a handful of others between developer forum-posts and interviews, which inspired me to write this article. If they truly believe that the matchups are equal, they’re ignoring some pretty significant trends.

For starters.their own tournament sported a meager 12.5% Terran representation, none of which made it past the RO16.

I won’t belabor this point since it has been repeatedly made, although I will offer the following additional pieces of research which support my claim:

IPL5 winrates

Race winrates at major tournaments over the past 4 months

Recent Lings of Liberty thread on Team Liquid

If you take the aforementioned list of examples as indicative of the unequal TvZ pairing (as I do), then the next logical question would be: what exactly is going wrong? Well, I'm glad you asked. The reasons- or at the very least, the symptoms- behind this unequal skew can be summed up by exploring the following five themes in detail: (1) Timing Attacks, (2) “Unforgiveness”, (3) Infestors, (4) The Late Game, and (5) Attention Imbalances.


1.) Timing Attacks
+ Show Spoiler +
About five months ago, Blizzard extended the queen attack range by 66%, thereby giving Zergs a vicious new increase in defensibility. A new meta-game quickly emerged: Zergs found that by building 4-6 queens early on, they could spend nearly all of their larvae on drones while simultaneously being safe from the vast majority of Terran timing attacks. After several months of failed attempts to break this build, Terrans finally reasoned that the only solution was an equally economically-aggressive opening; the 3-OC Hellion-Banshee was born, and with it, a (temporary) equalization of win-rates between the two races.

However, while supposedly providing some equilibrium to the metagame, there remained some striking differences between these two openings which ultimately illustrated that they were not equal in strength. First and foremost, Terran remained quite vulnerable doing the 3 OC opening, whereas Zerg, with their 4-6 transfusing queens, did not. As such, Zergs quickly caught on to Terran’s greed, and punished it with nydus, ling-runbys, and assorted forms of all-ins. Within weeks, the fleeting equilibrium in win-rates shifted once again, back in favor of Zerg.

All of that is to say that timing attacks for Terran were (and are) no longer reliably effective versus Zerg. TvZ is presently the only matchup where timing attacks do not work. When a Zerg plays beyond economic greed (such as using all of the queens for creep tumors rather than saving the energy to transfuse), they become vulnerable again. However, this is a rarity in practice.

TL;DR: Zerg can punish Terran greed, but Terran cannot reliably punish Zerg greed in kind.


2.) “Unforgiveness”
+ Show Spoiler +
The term “unforgiving” has been circulating a lot recently among forums for Terran players. The general consensus is that there are simply too many common, benign mistakes— a Terran player looking away from an army for a fraction of a second, for example—that end the game in the Zerg’s favor. In general (excepting tier 3 armies, which will be covered later) a Zerg’s army can always retreat from a Terran’s army, but not visa-versa. Fungals and a speed/mobility advantage means Zerg players have more options regarding if/when to engage a Terran force. Good creep spread—a staple of any high-level Zerg player—gives the Zerg plenty of cheap forewarning of a pending Terran attack as well.

Additional examples of common game-ending Terran snafus in TvZ include:
  • Encountering a Zerg army with tanks unsieged.
  • Lowered supply depot (see zergling harass below).
  • Not scanning ahead to scout burrowed banelings.
  • Clumped-up army getting surprise-fungaled.


By contrast, the most costly mistakes a Zerg can make in the current meta-game revolve solely around infestor miscontrol. Although these can and do occur, they are less likely and common than the previously cited Terran examples.

The aforementioned article on the the rise of Zerg offers additional support to my claims above, and includes some interesting statistics on Terran versus Zerg play between Korean and Foreign players.

TL;DR: The potential for unrecoverable mishaps made by Terrans are far greater than those made by Zergs within a typical TvZ game.
[image loading]

oops!



3.) Infestors
+ Show Spoiler +
No TvZ imbalance thread would be complete without a section on infestors. Unsurprisingly, they have been a staple Zerg unit in ZvT over the past several months. Let’s look at why:
  • Infestors are strong versus all Terran compositions from the mid-game and beyond. Unlike ravens, they are helpful immediately upon finishing, especially with the pathogen glands (starting energy) upgrade, and stay viable—even increasing in value as they survive and reserve energy—throughout the game.

  • Infestors are very difficult for Terran to kill. Fungal, infested terran, and neural parasite mean that it has no natural hard counters in the Terran force. Furthermore, while cloaked banshees are good low-attention unit to provoke a high-attention response from infestors (see the Attention section below), their high cost makes them an expensive option in practice. Ghosts are a theoretical counter, but serve no other practical purpose in a Terran’s army, are very difficult to micro properly (while also splitting, sieging, and performing other Terran micro-necessities), and very susceptible to fungal. Ravens with seeker missile are another oft-suggested counter, but they require a significant up-front investment before they become viable (starports, tech labs, and worst of all, all of that precious Time spent waiting for raven energy to accrue). Finally, since fungals outrange seeker missile (even with the new patch), good infestor control can keep ravens at bay indefinitely.

TL;DR: Infestors remain a strong unit versus all Terran compositions without a reasonable counter in response.


4.) The Late Game
+ Show Spoiler +
In order to compete against Zerg production in the late game, Terran is required to spend an inordinate amount of money on infrastructure. This has been a dynamic—not necessarily a problem—of the matchup since day 1. What this means, however, is that Terran players must commit to bio or mech early on, so as not to waste a large amount of money on infrastructure that will be useless to them in the end game. I will briefly review each of these tech paths and how they become problematic in the late game for TvZ. For Zerg, I will focus on the infestor/brood lord composition, since this is generally the most common (and the most deadly) late game ZvT approach.

Bio
+ Show Spoiler +
Marines and tanks, with two engineering bays. (This composition is sometimes used without tanks as well, although the end result is similar in both scenarios). The bulk of this infrastructure is inevitably reactored barracks, which naturally produce marines. Marines, however, are soundly countered by ultralisk, broodlord, and infestor play. A lot of Terran pros have been able to capitalize on the mobility of bio to harass while the slow tier-3 Zerg army rolls across the field, but this is not a reliably effective approach, and Terran will eventually need to deal with the broodlord/infestor mass regardless. In short, while this composition allows Terran to compete with a Zerg in the mid-game, it results in a very awkward Terran position once Zerg tier 3 units have completed.

In addition, a Zerg infestor/brood army is extremely high value, meaning that when both armies are maxed out (often around 18 or 19 minutes if play has been mostly passive until then), a Terran bio force will rarely reach 8,000 or 9,000 (including both minerals and gas) whereas an infestor/brood army typically exceeds 17,000 or 18,000 in value. And in the simplest terms, army A cannot beat army B if it is less than half its value, no matter what units are involved or how good your micro is. Since Terran has already committed to bio, it has no viable options for tangling with the Infestor/Brood force.

Oh, yes, Terran can make starports and swap them onto the reactors and spam Vikings. But, infestors and corruptors comfortably counter this style of play, and it leaves a Terran vulnerable to follow-up tech switches, regardless.


Mech
+ Show Spoiler +
The mech composition is the only Terran mix that allows Terran to compete with the value of a Zerg infestor/brood army. Thors, ravens, banshees, and tanks are all very expensive per unit space, and as such, allow Terran the opportunity to build toward a value-heavy 200 unit-space army.

Mech comes with its own set of difficulties, however. Because factories, armories, and starports are extremely expensive to build, Terrans who choose mech early on struggle to invest in enough production (to produce army), enough army (to defend against mid-game Zerg aggression), and enough upgrades (to be viable in the late game).

Even when a Terran has managed to survive going mech into the late game, they are typically faced with a host of vulnerabilities. Without a cheap static defense or mobile army, ling runbys, nydus play, and drops can continually assault Terran wherever there is not an army, ultimately wearing Terran down harassment-style.


TL;DR: Terran has no comfortable late-game option TvZ. Zerg’s ability to continually build towards a “value-heavy” 200 unit-space army gives them a definitive advantage in the late game.


5.) Attention-as-Resource
+ Show Spoiler +
We can think about Starcraft as a competition of resources; each player is attempting to leverage their own set of resources to overcome their opponent’s. There are the obvious resources in SCII such as economy, army, and production. There are also the not-so-obvious (but just as critical) resources of attention and actions per minute (APM).

Attention is a close cousin to APM, but yet is distinctly different. Loosely defined, attention is the resource required to actively look at a situation in order to adequately respond. It’s a combination of situation assessment and action execution. One of the most effective aspects of harassment in any matchup is that it is usually a low-attention attack tactic (drop, ling runby, warp prism warp-in) that necessitates a high-attention response by the opponent (looking at attack, judging how much of a threat it is, examining army, deciding what to pull back if anything, pulling it back, then micro-ing the army once it has retreated to the point of attack some moments later).

As an example, mutalisk harassment is generally roughly a 1:1 ratio as far as attention goes, meaning that the Zerg needs to spend just as much attention to avoid turrets and the defending army as the Terran does to find and defend against the mutas.
However, while the muta example above is equally balanced, it is unfortunately the exception rather than the rule as Zerg has a far greater arsenal of low-risk viable options for harassment which provoke a disproportional response in required attention from Terrans. Specifically:

  • Base prevention. Most Terran players would describe a burrowed ling (or an overlord pooping creep, or general creep spread) at a desired-expansion site annoying. I would describe it additionally as attention-consuming. In the case of a ling, a Terran may move a base to an expansion site and attempt to land it, but not know for some time that the landing has been denied. This requires the Terran to
    1. examine the base,
    2. look for the source of the block (ovie? Unburrowed ling? Burrowed ling?),
    3. move a clearing unit into position
    4. come back to the base later when the unit is in position,
    5. execute a valuable scan to kill the ling, and
    6. return the unit to the pack.

    None of these actions are difficult, but they do amount to a large amount of attention, especially considering the multi-step process of the task and the minimal attention required on the part of the Zerg who placed the burrowed ling there in the first place. Waiting for creep to recede from a base creates yet another step of required attention before the delay has been fully dealt with.

  • Ling runbys. Lings are fast! They’re often a blink away from charging into your main or mineral line. It doesn’t matter how 1337 you are, if you are a Terran you know what I am talking about; Terran needs to have lowered Supply Depots to successfully rally their army without forcing attention-consuming raising/lowering of depots. This, plus the fact that Terran is the only race without cheap, zero unit space, static defense means that the Terran’s main base is almost always defenseless against a Zergling pillage-fest. Because lings can burrow and sneakily hide in various corners, it can often require multiple iterations of army retreating scenarios in order to deal with this threat fully. While a Terran is waiting for their defending army to get back to their base, they will often need to lift buildings and re-rally SCVs, all of which require attentive focus (both on the front end and on the back when the buildings are put back into place). In general, a Terran’s base requires more attention than any of the three races to rebuild and zerglings are one of the best units out there for creating just the right circumstances to necessitate this attention-consuming process (and generally making a royal mess of things).

  • Burrowed infestor harass. Burrowed infestors and roaches are the only units in the game that can move invisibly without being detected by the human eye. This makes infestor harass particularly brutal as it cannot be anticipated without ample cloak detection. More importantly, however, is that burrowed infestors in a Terran’s main have the most lopsided attention ratio of any form of harassment in Starcraft II. A few sets of infestors can move unseen from corner to corner of the Terran’s base, requiring multiple scans, turrets, and often multiple trips back home to finally rid the main of them for good. By contrast, this form of harassment requires very little attention from Zerg: they need simply to look at their infestors in order to spam infested terrans every once and awhile, then move the infestors to a new hiding spot. Other than this, there is very little that Zergs need to focus on with their harassing infestors relative to the attention it requires from the Terran to deal with them.

TL;DR: Harassment tactics from Zerg require a disproportionately larger amount of attention for Terran to deal with than Terran harassment does for a Zerg player.


Conclusions
+ Show Spoiler +
I feel it is important to state explicitly that I have nothing but the highest respect for the developers at Blizzard. Starcraft II has sustained my interest longer than any other game in my extensive game-playing career, and I have the folks at Blizzard to thank for this. They are a creative bunch who put extensive thought and planning into their game, and it’s clear they’re passionate about the result.

I honestly don’t have any significant opinions on how to modify the game to account for some of the imbalances that I have described in this article. I think the development team at Blizzard really excels at coming up with fresh solutions to balance problems. My concern lately, however, is that Blizzard isn’t paying close enough attention to what is broken at the high level of play in TvZ matchups specifically, and as such, their proposed solutions (so far) have been largely inadequate. The development of Heart of the Swarm has further enhanced my concern; they are introducing several more late-game options for Zerg (ultra burrow, blinding cloud, abduct), without giving Terran anything new to deal with them in the late game. (Only the widow mine: another unit that has low value given its unit space requirement).

This is obviously a Terran post written by a Terran-loving Terran player. It is not, however, my intention to whine or complain, and I’ve strived to make my conclusions as objective as possible. Most of my assertions have already been made by players far better and smarter than I am.

But please, feel free to disagree with me! If my language or examples seem too Terran-leaning, I welcome counter-examples. Rather than insist that points 1-5 are absolutely true for all high masters+ Terran (versus Zerg) players, I'm more trying to paint a broad picture of a general imbalance. If you feel as though I have under-represented Terran advantages in the matchup, I am open to hearing your contrasting opinions (especially if your experience is first-hand at the high level of play).

Nebbish over and out.






DaNkS
Profile Joined December 2012
United States9 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-05 02:20:52
December 05 2012 02:20 GMT
#2
this is funny cuz protoss isnt as good as terran and zerg as well i think toss needs a buff
2eZ
InfCereal
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada1759 Posts
December 05 2012 02:25 GMT
#3
On December 05 2012 11:20 DaNkS wrote:
this is funny cuz protoss isnt as good as terran and zerg as well i think toss needs a buff


Protoss is doing wonderfully against zerg compared to terran.
Cereal
kyllinghest
Profile Joined December 2011
Norway1607 Posts
December 05 2012 02:32 GMT
#4
On December 05 2012 11:20 DaNkS wrote:
this is funny cuz protoss isnt as good as terran and zerg as well i think toss needs a buff

You read fast man!

On-topic I think it was a good read, and especially the attention section is something I really agree with you on!
"NO" -Has
chadissilent
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada1187 Posts
December 05 2012 02:33 GMT
#5
The problem with TvZ is balance whine.
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
December 05 2012 02:35 GMT
#6
On December 05 2012 11:33 chadissilent wrote:
The problem with TvZ is balance whine.


Yea man, zergs never whine...
Jo Byung Se #1 fan | CJ_Rush(reborn) fan | Liquid'Jinro(ret) fan | Liquid'Taeja fan | oGsTheSuperNada fan | Iris[gm](ret) fan |
Insomni7
Profile Joined June 2011
667 Posts
December 05 2012 02:36 GMT
#7
So you assert that a plus 2 range to queens has broken the matchup but then assert that the much more dramatic changes here announced arent enough? Small changes have large effects. This has been demonstrated firsthand by this queen buff. Why can nobody just sit back and see how things go for a bit?
Never Forget.
KaiserKieran
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States615 Posts
December 05 2012 02:39 GMT
#8
I was just brainstorming and came up with the idea for Terran. If Terrans could build auto turrets, would it in turn provide a safe reliable fight against long runbies thoughts?
Great thread BTW. Lings of liberty didn't persuade me as much ad this.
Thienan567
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States670 Posts
December 05 2012 02:39 GMT
#9
On December 05 2012 11:35 GTPGlitch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2012 11:33 chadissilent wrote:
The problem with TvZ is balance whine.


Yea man, zergs never whine...


Of course they don't! With broodlordinfestor zergs don't really have a reason to complain.
Pimpmuckl
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany528 Posts
December 05 2012 02:39 GMT
#10
Hmm, you say the changes aren't fixing the game itself. Blizzard is saying so itself. I'm not getting your point here, HotS will "fix" it.

If you look at the numbers, i really think this was a good step in a right direction with Tanks 2shotting Eggs with +1 and so on.
twitter.com/pimpmuckl
Entirety
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
1423 Posts
December 05 2012 02:39 GMT
#11
Honestly, my gut feeling is that TvZ is still imbalanced... how can reducing Fungal range by 1 possibly stop all the Infestor/BL spam which seems to crush through any Terran army?

I remember when lategame PvT was considered imbalanced because of Protoss's splash damage options. At that time, I was angry at Blizzard for not addressing our concerns and I genuinely felt that Terrans could not beat Protoss lategame without a balance patch.

Now, a few months later, I realize that no patch was needed. I will admit that I was wrong. And I can be wrong again.

No matter what my gut feeling says, I want to stick with the patch for a while and play it out, see how it feels. I want to see how Code S Koreans make use of this small change, I want to see if the matchup can shift in momentum.

No one is perfect at balancing games! If Blizzard were perfect, StarCraft 2 would already have been balanced, but you have to admit that StarCraft 2's balance isn't outright unplayable... I think we should let some time pass before we cry out "Nerf Zerg" again.
IMMvp (정종현) | Fan Club: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211431
PaperPrinter
Profile Joined December 2012
33 Posts
December 05 2012 02:44 GMT
#12
The problem I have with the matchup (from a zerg perspective) is that Terran after the queen range buff is now the reactive race. Terran scouts fast third -> terran has to go fast 3 CC, terran scouts 2 base tech -> terran needs to throw down more infrastructure and prepare for a multitude of different builds including roach queen nydus all in, huge roach/baneling push, mutas, infestors, ect. Not only does Terran have to react to our opener, but they also have to react to what we build in the late game, Terran scouts BL -> needs vikings, Terran scouts ultras -> need marauders/more tanks/thors. Wasn't Zerg designed to be the reactive race?

The only way that this will be fixed is if the queen range buff is reverted, or queen health takes a nerf (they would still trade cost effectively vs hellions). Anyways, it isn't the race I fell in love with and I've been playing mostly random lately because the queen feels like too much of a crutch.
Bippzy
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1466 Posts
December 05 2012 02:46 GMT
#13
Listen, I like the points, they are good points that I myself would make, albeit in a more conservative way(for example " the raven, unlike infestor" part is worthless to me because you assume ravens play the same role as infestors or something)
i disagree with the premise that it's not enough. Simply put, if you saved this OP, waited two weeks of SC2, and nothing evidently had changed, your premise would be proven. As it stands, your post is a little bit more than fashionably late to the party, rather too late.
LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK
Lumi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1612 Posts
December 05 2012 02:47 GMT
#14
The Lings of Liberty thread is a troll, lol. It's statistics are laughable. Also, IPL5 had huge Zerg saturation going into it which makes the results pretty inevitable. And you have those exact IPL5 numbers covering a lot of the gap in your overall race winrates in the last 4 months. Should check the seeding on each of th ose to get a better feel for the whole story. Numbers have stories behidn them. Just taking whoevers graphs look like it supports what you think isn't really reflective of someone having dedication to the full, exact story involved. For every tournament you're showing that has zerg favored saturation, or win rates, or championship wins; There are tournaments that show the exact same for other races. Please make some effort to be honest with yourself, and subsequently the people you talk to, about what's going on.

Also, nothing you've said is original. You make a mistake and lose? Welcome to Starcraft 2. Every race has examples of this happening - it takes some pretty vibrantly tinted whine-goggles to think that this reality is unique to the Terran race. Seriously, the people who bring up this 'point' are desperately in need of a clue and some form of basic ability to view things outside of their bias.

Also, it looks like you have outdated writing on an Infestor which has now been nerfed, and are so committed to whining that you haven't bothered to change this. Other than to put "(still)" in your title. I'll leave it to you to figure out, in time, how significant the infestor changes are.

Timing attacks and queen complaints? We pay for those queens, and if zergs weren't shutting down your attacks with those, they would be using roaches and lings instead. It's not as if Z were just sitting around ready to be shit on by a ton of early game aggressive moves by Terran, and with a queen buff that all suddenly became impotent. Early game aggression is just universally an easy thing to scout and handle. If it wasn't, we'd all use it non-stop. But it is. Furthermore, it's not like queens stand up to stuff and say you shall not pass! There are tons of situations where Zerg is naked behind their queens, not even making a spine anymore, or a baneling nest or a roach warren.

Your attention-as-a-resource bit seems founded on the presupposition that Terran is more apm intensive than Z, and your proofs or examples seem to be numbers pulled right from your butt and delivered with confidence. That's not going to work. Do you want to hear me whine about how you can cue up 3 dropships and not look at them while I have to scramble to deal with all the chaos that causes in one unified moment for me? No, you don't, and I don't want to talk about it, because it doesn't actually matter. You need to get over these arbitrary notions for all things having to be, in every way, equal. The races are not designed that way, and the game would be boring if they were. We all have our own unique shit to deal with. Again, for all the examples you put forward in favor of one race, they can be made for the other races. Please realize this.

As for the late g ame, the infestor nerf is quite relevant, as is the seeker missile buff. You're probably into the trend of laughing at that buff, as if its meaningless, because you refuse to acknowledge or be open minded to what it does for your race. It's not just a resource buff, but through that, a buff to the speed and accessability of having seeker missile splashed into your game, sooner than ever and cheaper than ever. Seeker missile has already been getting a ton of use in recent, and to great effect. We've all seen it. So quit pretending you're fucked and nothing is improving or changing so that you can enjoy the sound of your own whining. That isn't going to help you or your community, not at all.

I'm not going to address the late game at large with you, because that would take a ton of time to do comprehensively, and I can't say that you have made the impression of someone who really understands what is going on, nor do you come off as particularly open-minded for your race. You come off as someone dead set on feeling screwed. You must rage a lot, and therefor need a lot of consolation at the racial level, so that you can bypass having to acknowledge your own mistakes.

Deal with it. /sunglasses
twitter.com/lumigaming - DongRaeGu is the One True Dong - /r/onetruedong
Dontkillme
Profile Joined November 2011
Korea (South)806 Posts
December 05 2012 02:48 GMT
#15
On December 05 2012 11:36 Insomni7 wrote:
So you assert that a plus 2 range to queens has broken the matchup but then assert that the much more dramatic changes here announced arent enough? Small changes have large effects. This has been demonstrated firsthand by this queen buff. Why can nobody just sit back and see how things go for a bit?


We have. For about a year now. Zerg winning 60% of Z v Ts. Seems like nothing needs to be done and that everything is fine. (Please note sarcasm)
Bomber & Jaedong & FlaSh & SNSD <3
Kyhol
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada2575 Posts
December 05 2012 02:48 GMT
#16
I love the points you make. I'm on board. Full speed ahead captain!
Wishing you well.
Mavvie
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Canada923 Posts
December 05 2012 02:50 GMT
#17
On December 05 2012 11:39 Entirety wrote:
Honestly, my gut feeling is that TvZ is still imbalanced... how can reducing Fungal range by 1 possibly stop all the Infestor/BL spam which seems to crush through any Terran army?

I remember when lategame PvT was considered imbalanced because of Protoss's splash damage options. At that time, I was angry at Blizzard for not addressing our concerns and I genuinely felt that Terrans could not beat Protoss lategame without a balance patch.

Now, a few months later, I realize that no patch was needed. I will admit that I was wrong. And I can be wrong again.

No matter what my gut feeling says, I want to stick with the patch for a while and play it out, see how it feels. I want to see how Code S Koreans make use of this small change, I want to see if the matchup can shift in momentum.

No one is perfect at balancing games! If Blizzard were perfect, StarCraft 2 would already have been balanced, but you have to admit that StarCraft 2's balance isn't outright unplayable... I think we should let some time pass before we cry out "Nerf Zerg" again.

Just a thought, range 8 actually makes a significant difference. Vikings have 1 range to play around with now, so either you get free shots on broodlord/infestor, or the infestors extend past the broodlords (by ~1 range) and you can snipe/EMP them to shit. Not saying it's game-changing, but it's a good help. Also, I'm under the impression that given time Terrans can deal with blord/infestor, it's the ultra/bane transition that wins the game on big maps/when Terran is good.

I can't say anything about balance (haven't played it).
Getting back into sc2 O_o
DaNkS
Profile Joined December 2012
United States9 Posts
December 05 2012 02:52 GMT
#18
LOL man idk why terran is complaining terran is sooo OP terran tier 1 units can pwn zerg and protoss tier 3 units

User was banned for this post.
2eZ
CSSolutionstv
Profile Joined November 2010
118 Posts
December 05 2012 02:54 GMT
#19
The main problem in all match ups, and the game itself, is that you can put too many units in one control group.

Being able to have a lot of units in one control group makes handling very big armies way too easy, hence making micro-intensive play like drops easy to stop at high levels of play.

Grouping unlimited units also promotes "Death ball" approaches, and losing your whole army in one fight (unless you're protoss, or zerg with a healthy economy and macro), usually means the end of the game for you.

which leads me to the next point, the unforgiveness of the game leads to stall games, where both players are just amassing a huge army for a big encounter (Zerg vs any race comes to mind), and also makes super powerfull "hero" units like the mothership.

Yeah, infestors are a big, big problem, but they're mainly to their versatility, meaning they pretty much cover all the roles a zerg army could want a caster for:

- Harass
- Pushing
- Defense
- Counters air / ground

Armor and damage types also help unbalance things further, because the bonus damage to units is way too big, making some units useless against others, and making this game too much of an "rock paper sissors" type of game, where if you choose the right unit and remain un-scouted you can win very easy.

that's the second issue, only one race can viably scout all game long, zerg has too many ways to scout with
1. Overlords (they move way too fast)
2. Creep tummors
3. Zerglings

which basically makes them the only race that knows whats going on all game long, unlike terran or protoss that have to play guessing most of the time, since sometimes scanning or getting an observer first can be way too problematic (resources wasted), and they also come kinda late).
Zenbrez
Profile Joined June 2012
Canada5973 Posts
December 05 2012 02:56 GMT
#20
I can't take PvZ winrates very seriously. The amount of wins toss gets from the immortal-sentry is stupid high (relative to losses), and the wins zerg gets from going lategame turtle unkillable-army is also ridic high (relative to losses). The rates are so skewed, that you need to pull data from game-time wins I feel
Refer to my post.
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