EPTTvZ: A Summary of What's (Still) Broken - Page 2
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
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DaNkS
United States9 Posts
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
On December 05 2012 12:00 DaNkS wrote: hahaha its funny how PVZ as zerg you can easily just 1base baneling all in and win LOL its ridiculous and if you see immortal/ling its really OP against any race man once you have that massive muta count you cant do nothing about it..... stalkers dps is to slow to mutas high dps and splash damage. the only thing is storm but mutas can fly really fast and be annoying. and 60% of the time dodge the storm and take minimal damage. Just playing devil's advocate here: 1. Are all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing? I'm doubtful, it keeps the opponent honest, so I tend to miss the point of the baneling all in complain. 2. If lings were the counter to immortals and mutalisks were unable to be dealt with by protoss, why wouldn't we see this often compared to the ubiquitous BL/infestor? I know this is a thread claiming grievances with the zerg race, but I fail to see how you contribute opinions with any support. | ||
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DaNkS
United States9 Posts
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On December 05 2012 11:39 Thienan567 wrote: Of course they don't! With broodlordinfestor zergs don't really have a reason to complain.  2010-2011 On December 05 2012 11:33 chadissilent wrote: The problem with TvZ is balance whine. as well as the people who whine about others whining. | ||
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lemonbone
Hong Kong154 Posts
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 05 2012 11:48 Dontkillme wrote: We have. For about a year now. Zerg winning 60% of Z v Ts. Seems like nothing needs to be done and that everything is fine. (Please note sarcasm) Wow you don't understand what he is saying at all. He is saying clearly a small change like 2+ range for Queens had a HUGE effect. So we should see how these small changes work, maybe they have a pretty big effect as well. The patch just came out, you haven't been waiting for about a year now for this new change. Give it time. | ||
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Nebbish
United States4 Posts
On December 05 2012 11:47 Lumi wrote: Also, nothing you've said is original. As I mentioned (did you read the article?), this post was meant to be a collection of what has already been said, not a collection of new ideas. On December 05 2012 11:47 Lumi wrote: You come off as someone dead set on feeling screwed. You must rage a lot, and therefor need a lot of consolation at the racial level, so that you can bypass having to acknowledge your own mistakes. Actually, I like imbalance in Starcraft II, especially when it's favored away from my primary race; it gives me a challenge, something to explore, and something to analyze. Although TvZ has (of course) driven me nuts at times, it's also been my favorite matchup to play for the past six months. And for the record, I gg after every game. | ||
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MisterTea
United Kingdom1047 Posts
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Insomni7
667 Posts
On December 05 2012 11:48 Dontkillme wrote: We have. For about a year now. Zerg winning 60% of Z v Ts. Seems like nothing needs to be done and that everything is fine. (Please note sarcasm) Are you serious? Did you read what I said? I said that we should see how the patch changes things before we make threads like this. And that number is silly. It only indicates that balance shifted. The only real indicator of balance is after win rates have fallen back to 50-50, seeing how many of each race qualify for the premier tournaments like GSL and OSL. | ||
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TiberiusAk
United States122 Posts
Terrans finally reasoned that the only solution was an equally economically-aggressive opening; the 3-OC Hellion-Banshee was born, and with it, a (temporary) equalization of win-rates between the two races. I agree that this is the reason the TvZ meta got stuck where it is, but new effective timings are out there to be found. Check out this recent Day9 daily for an example: http://day9.tv/d/Day9/polts-tvz-beat-the-imba/ I think Terrans are on the road to figuring out how to pressure in the early game. Of course, that means little if there's no late game solution, but I think the infestor nerfs go a long way to addressing this. There's a lot of little reasons. For instance, infested terran eggs taking two tank shots to kill instead of three means less potential friendly fire damage. Fewer infested terrans will survive to do any damage in general. Also the fungal range reduction will make infestors more likely to die in general. As a result they'll become less cost-effective, meaning either fewer infestors or fewer broodlords/ultras/banelings late game. And then there's all the units that have more chance to be effective at their jobs (e.g. vikings, ravens) because the infestors are dead or tripping over each other. Ghosts now have a range advantage on infestors as well. So...we'll see. As a spectator, I'm looking forward to seeing TvZ change. | ||
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Nebbish
United States4 Posts
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iTzSnypah
United States1738 Posts
I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge. I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. | ||
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xTrim
472 Posts
On December 05 2012 12:05 Bippzy wrote: Just playing devil's advocate here: 1. Are all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing? I'm doubtful, it keeps the opponent honest, so I tend to miss the point of the baneling all in complain. 2. If lings were the counter to immortals and mutalisks were unable to be dealt with by protoss, why wouldn't we see this often compared to the ubiquitous BL/infestor? I know this is a thread claiming grievances with the zerg race, but I fail to see how you contribute opinions with any support. 1. I don`t remember which game was in GSL, but some terran did proxy 11/11, zerg did not scout it and 3 hatch before pool... No need to say who won, right? So I don`t buy the "all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing"? Hell we`re talking about GSL player, proxying 11/11 vs a THREE HATCH BEFORE POOL, UNSCOUTED | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On December 05 2012 12:25 iTzSnypah wrote: I had a good laugh at the responses. All these low post count kids make me laugh at their overly complex replies. I don't like that the majority of Zerg tries to downplay the Queen range buff. It is huge. I believe the best way to 'fix' TvZ is to reduce Queen range to 3.5. Thus bringing back Hellion openers and slowing down the game. As much as I'm all for change, and I'm too new to the game to have played before 3 queen range, but weren't hellions the most overpowered shit in the game? You could deny Zerg's third while taking a third of your own for free, and Zerg had to invest >300 minerals defensively just to survive the first 4-6 hellions? That's like Protoss having to build 2 more cannons to defend the first few lings of Zerg, seems kind of bullshit. Like my impression was that not only did hellions deny Zerg's third base (which is OK), but they could also trade effectively for drones, every time. Just providing the counterargument, again I never played back then. | ||
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RParks42
United States77 Posts
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xTrim
472 Posts
On December 05 2012 12:31 Mavvie wrote: As much as I'm all for change, and I'm too new to the game to have played before 3 queen range, but weren't hellions the most overpowered shit in the game? You could deny Zerg's third while taking a third of your own for free, and Zerg had to invest >300 minerals defensively just to survive the first 4-6 hellions? That's like Protoss having to build 2 more cannons to defend the first few lings of Zerg, seems kind of bullshit. Like my impression was that not only did hellions deny Zerg's third base (which is OK), but they could also trade effectively for drones, every time. Just providing the counterargument, again I never played back then. Not really.. Hellions just added a little bit to the zergs attention early game: microing the spine to move forward with queen support, etc... zergs could open 4 queens, 2 for creep and semi-wall, 2 for injects... and "leapfrog" their spines... i`ve been masters forever in this game and thats what they were starting to do... also going for some quick 3 roaches and shoo the hellions.. hell, now that we are playing 1 rax FE zergs ARE making roaches! So whats the problem of making roaches back with reactor expand?? | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On December 05 2012 12:30 xTrim wrote: I'm sure you remembered how much damage was dealt before the pool finished.... right?1. I don`t remember which game was in GSL, but some terran did proxy 11/11, zerg did not scout it and 3 hatch before pool... No need to say who won, right? So I don`t buy the "all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing"? Hell we`re talking about GSL player, proxying 11/11 vs a THREE HATCH BEFORE POOL, UNSCOUTED | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On December 05 2012 12:30 xTrim wrote: 1. I don`t remember which game was in GSL, but some terran did proxy 11/11, zerg did not scout it and 3 hatch before pool... No need to say who won, right? So I don`t buy the "all-ins that work easily if not scouted a bad thing"? Hell we`re talking about GSL player, proxying 11/11 vs a THREE HATCH BEFORE POOL, UNSCOUTED I assume you mean the happy game which was horrible executed it wsn't even funny. | ||
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