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TvZ: A Summary of What's (Still) Broken - Page 24

Forum Index > SC2 General
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dcemuser
Profile Joined August 2010
United States3248 Posts
December 27 2012 01:58 GMT
#461
On December 26 2012 15:22 Zombo Joe wrote:
I think its naive to think HotS will some how fix the gameplay.

If anything it looks like it will create more problems.


The thing is that the additional units/upgrades gives them more levers to pull. There are now enough units that they can afford to nerf a unit into complete uselessness in one matchup if they had to do it to keep it balanced in the other ones.

In WoL, there just were not enough units - every nerf affected almost every matchup - so they were forced to make very tiny changes.
Armore
Profile Joined July 2012
Finland6 Posts
December 27 2012 07:33 GMT
#462
On December 27 2012 10:44 Shade_CsT wrote:
Yes Infestor is an issue, but the counter of the Infestor is the most important issue.

Why don't Terran players whine about Ghosts instead of Infestors ?
Ghost is one those units designed to counter Infestors, and they are pretty bad at it. They were OP (Snipe countered all the Z late game units), but they also were nerfed too hard by Blizzard. One of the key to balance WoL Infestors is the Ghost in my opinion.

My 2 cents. (from a mid-high master league Zerg player)
I would love to see Terran players agree with me on this point.


Terran here.

I do agree that the Ghost is quite horrible against infestors. However, I'm also quite sad about the fact that snipe got nerfed so heavily. It is true that it countered zerg tier 3, but the nerf should have been just a reduction of snipe damage against massive. I mean c'mon, what kind of a snipe is it if you cant kill a marine?

I also have to bring up the fact that snipe requires crazy micro and full attention. King MVP was able to do it of course, but I do not find snipe to be a problem among the not-so-hardcore players.
Without effort, don't expect results.
mazqo
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland368 Posts
December 27 2012 08:19 GMT
#463
On December 27 2012 10:44 Shade_CsT wrote:
Yes Infestor is an issue, but the counter of the Infestor is the most important issue.

Why don't Terran players whine about Ghosts instead of Infestors ?
Ghost is one those units designed to counter Infestors, and they are pretty bad at it. They were OP (Snipe countered all the Z late game units), but they also were nerfed too hard by Blizzard. One of the key to balance WoL Infestors is the Ghost in my opinion.

My 2 cents. (from a mid-high master league Zerg player)
I would love to see Terran players agree with me on this point.

Because siege tanks counter infestors same way as ghosts does. Snipe them from long range. Its already a bit hard to control lategame terran army vs zerg(vikings, ravens, siegetanks, bio). We dont really want one more micro intensive unit added to that. The old ghosts used to replace vikings and ravens and made that terran doesnt need to control bio+siege tanks that much in a fights, because you could focus on sniping.
graNite
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany4434 Posts
December 27 2012 08:22 GMT
#464
Also I do not think Zerg players was given enough time to learn how to deal with mass ghosts (I think transition to banelings or roaches would be great).
The fix of the ghost should have been its gas cost. The perfect amount would be 125/150 in my opinion. How often do you see a Terran player in TVP that has so much overgas... Terran just has no gas sink.
"Oink oink, bitches" - Tasteless on Pigbaby winning a map against Flash
mazqo
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland368 Posts
December 27 2012 08:25 GMT
#465
On December 27 2012 17:22 graNite wrote:
Also I do not think Zerg players was given enough time to learn how to deal with mass ghosts (I think transition to banelings or roaches would be great).
The fix of the ghost should have been its gas cost. The perfect amount would be 125/150 in my opinion. How often do you see a Terran player in TVP that has so much overgas... Terran just has no gas sink.

Well, when you made ghosts you also camped with them behind planetary fortress and there was just no way zerg could break that, and it was broken and stupid. I just wish they would have removed planetary fortress from the game instead of nerfing ghosts.
Snowbear
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Korea (South)1925 Posts
December 27 2012 08:55 GMT
#466
On December 27 2012 10:44 Shade_CsT wrote:
Yes Infestor is an issue, but the counter of the Infestor is the most important issue.

Why don't Terran players whine about Ghosts instead of Infestors ?
Ghost is one those units designed to counter Infestors, and they are pretty bad at it. They were OP (Snipe countered all the Z late game units), but they also were nerfed too hard by Blizzard. One of the key to balance WoL Infestors is the Ghost in my opinion.

My 2 cents. (from a mid-high master league Zerg player)
I would love to see Terran players agree with me on this point.


I agree, but the main reason why ghosts were nerfed, is the crosswheel snipe bug...
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
December 27 2012 08:59 GMT
#467
On December 27 2012 17:55 Snowbear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2012 10:44 Shade_CsT wrote:
Yes Infestor is an issue, but the counter of the Infestor is the most important issue.

Why don't Terran players whine about Ghosts instead of Infestors ?
Ghost is one those units designed to counter Infestors, and they are pretty bad at it. They were OP (Snipe countered all the Z late game units), but they also were nerfed too hard by Blizzard. One of the key to balance WoL Infestors is the Ghost in my opinion.

My 2 cents. (from a mid-high master league Zerg player)
I would love to see Terran players agree with me on this point.


I agree, but the main reason why ghosts were nerfed, is the crosswheel snipe bug...

which also exists for the infestor >_>#
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
chandie
Profile Joined November 2010
Norway15 Posts
December 27 2012 09:19 GMT
#468
I dont care what knowitalls on teamliquid think. I for one stopped playing the game after they broke it. I have no more fun playing and I think Terran has huge issues and have been saying it for a long time. Hopefully alot of other players stop playing and the game dies and a new one can take its place. How this balance issue has been handled is a disgrace and I think its very unprofessional. Terran got nerfed the second they won a tournament example (tanks, reapers,medivac speed,ghost).
So please just give it a breake and remove the race.
Random Hero
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
December 27 2012 09:22 GMT
#469
On December 27 2012 17:25 mazqo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2012 17:22 graNite wrote:
Also I do not think Zerg players was given enough time to learn how to deal with mass ghosts (I think transition to banelings or roaches would be great).
The fix of the ghost should have been its gas cost. The perfect amount would be 125/150 in my opinion. How often do you see a Terran player in TVP that has so much overgas... Terran just has no gas sink.

Well, when you made ghosts you also camped with them behind planetary fortress and there was just no way zerg could break that, and it was broken and stupid. I just wish they would have removed planetary fortress from the game instead of nerfing ghosts.

Mass banelings to break in and remax on whatever you want. That's the counter to mass planetary/ghost/tank.
truthUnderVeil
Profile Joined December 2012
23 Posts
December 27 2012 09:35 GMT
#470
On December 27 2012 17:25 mazqo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2012 17:22 graNite wrote:
Also I do not think Zerg players was given enough time to learn how to deal with mass ghosts (I think transition to banelings or roaches would be great).
The fix of the ghost should have been its gas cost. The perfect amount would be 125/150 in my opinion. How often do you see a Terran player in TVP that has so much overgas... Terran just has no gas sink.

Well, when you made ghosts you also camped with them behind planetary fortress and there was just no way zerg could break that, and it was broken and stupid. I just wish they would have removed planetary fortress from the game instead of nerfing ghosts.

Or zerg could try to use nydus and drops. The maps are no longer what they used to be (metalopolis and shakuras).
Besides, nobody else in the world used ghosts at a success at a pro level but MVP in a single tournament. It was immediately deemed as imba and nerfed.

Zerg uses gglords ggfestors vs every race on every map and almost always wins. It has been happening for a year already. Nobody at Blizzard nerfed it despite the huge outrage of the community. GGFestors ggLords is far more broken and stupid than snipe ever was which required at least some apm and positioning.
kaluro
Profile Joined November 2011
Netherlands760 Posts
December 27 2012 10:20 GMT
#471
On December 27 2012 18:35 truthUnderVeil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2012 17:25 mazqo wrote:
On December 27 2012 17:22 graNite wrote:
Also I do not think Zerg players was given enough time to learn how to deal with mass ghosts (I think transition to banelings or roaches would be great).
The fix of the ghost should have been its gas cost. The perfect amount would be 125/150 in my opinion. How often do you see a Terran player in TVP that has so much overgas... Terran just has no gas sink.

Well, when you made ghosts you also camped with them behind planetary fortress and there was just no way zerg could break that, and it was broken and stupid. I just wish they would have removed planetary fortress from the game instead of nerfing ghosts.

Or zerg could try to use nydus and drops. The maps are no longer what they used to be (metalopolis and shakuras).
Besides, nobody else in the world used ghosts at a success at a pro level but MVP in a single tournament. It was immediately deemed as imba and nerfed.

Zerg uses gglords ggfestors vs every race on every map and almost always wins. It has been happening for a year already. Nobody at Blizzard nerfed it despite the huge outrage of the community. GGFestors ggLords is far more broken and stupid than snipe ever was which required at least some apm and positioning.


You're making fun of yourself now. In ZvP infestor broodlord is prevalent, correct. Though there are plenty of other playstyles around; dimaga's ling/bling+overlord drops, stephano 11 min roach/ling max, double upgrade ling into mutalisk play.

In ZvT It's more ling/bling/ultralisk/infestor than anything, broodlords don't really occur except for late late game and/or versus mech.

In ZvZ I doubt many people go broodlord/infestor, since most people stick with range upgrades and thus infestor/roach/hydra. And when double melee upgrading. ultralisks are really attractive before transferring to broodlords.

Broodlords and infestor are our latest tier composition, so of course it turns out like this late late game, but don't lie to yourself by saying it's prominentely used in every matchup.


www.twitch.tv/kaluroo - 720p60fps - Remember the name! - Don't do your best, do whatever it takes.
Thrillz
Profile Joined May 2012
4313 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-27 12:18:22
December 27 2012 12:03 GMT
#472
What?!?!?!?!? Infestor/BL is super prevalent. It's what gives rise to the P word and what everyone is qq'ing about. ZvZ is the only one because it often doesn't get there,and thank god for that because that would be terrible. I remember watching a ZvZ on Daybreak that was terrible to watch with free units vs free units, along with that Miya vs Scarlett game on Atlantis. I actually thought Queen buff was someone justified because people believe ZvZ would be less volatile, but if it's like Scarlett vs Miya, then I'd much rather have micro ling/bling wars like DRG vs Effort.
iEchoic
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1776 Posts
December 27 2012 12:39 GMT
#473
On December 26 2012 22:15 WhiteSatin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 26 2012 09:36 Coffee Zombie wrote:
Apart from Infestors, the whole thing boils down to larvae. In the past, you needed larvae to defend early pushes and to shoo off the contain from Reactor Hellion Expand quickly. Zerg players didn't like it. I vividly remember the endless inanity of "making Roaches is unacceptable because it means we can't drone/tech optimally". I am serious. The damage IdrA and Artosis have done to Zerg players' mindset cannot be underestimated.

The issue is that, as we all have (to our boredom) noticed over the last half a year, the Zerg economy, if unhindered, is broken. The ability to use all your production slots on nothing but economy is way too good to exist, except for the fact that in the past you could force Zerg to use larvae for defense. This meant both sides made army, econ and teched a bit. It was fair (though understandably felt bad for Z because they were literally being damaged).

Also, the only really boring part about Reactor Hellion was that T went for it almost always. The opener itself played out entertainingly enough: both sides had high stakes (immediate, long-lasting loss of map control for Terran, severe economic damage or outright game loss for Zerg) and there was lots of action happening. Terrans were busy trying to snipe tumors, Z was busy trying to sneak them past the Hellions, players had to watch their Queens/Hellions constantly to prevent a Hellion/Speedling snipe, respectively, and so forth. The most important thing of all, though, was that it led to an actual midgame.

And from here we get to the cascade effect the Queendralisk buff had. The early game implications are clear for all to see. But the ripple effects? Dear god. First, creep spread easily goes out of control, where spreading it was an effort before. The better economy allows for a very early swell of Infestors, which helps make Zerg safe and essentially kills the midgame, from which we get into quick, fast, Infestor/T3 comp with the accompanying tech switches. The sheer scale of the change is perhaps best realized when one stops to consider that in the past a 17 minute Hive was risky and greedy. Such a far cry from our current, absurdly safe 12 minute Hive timings, isn't it? That's all because Z had to invest into a midgame to fight off the Terran midgame (which they could get to due to less creep and slower Zerg development). And damn, was that midgame ever good.

The slower Hive timings also made the late game more bearable - Terran had more time to get their infrastructure up to contend with Zerg's endgame composition. The fundamental character of it was then, and still is expensive, inflexible Terran infrastructure making very narrow anti-1-unit counters that have no other use vs. a flexible Zerg infrastructure making little but threats.

The greatest casualty of the Queendralisk patch hasn't been balance, though - a certain amount of imbalance you can work around and it is even entertaining for some. The greatest casualties have been fun (the game has become dull), the idea that the game makes any kind of sense (the kind of imbalance and it's degree make the games feel just plain stupid). I also can't tell good and bad Zergs apart anymore. In the past, great creep spread was an achievement. There were brilliant holds, good game sense, great flanks. Mutas hadn't been eclipsed so badly and so were an actual (not just stubbornly stylistic) option. Now it's the same dull monotony where it feels like the sheer, absurd, dominant power of some key units does more work than the player.


One of the best posts regarding this issue that I've seen in a while - and that also confirms my idea that the Queen buff has ruined the match up even more than the fungal damage output


Just wanted to chime in and agree that this post is fantastic. It hits the nail on the head, and summarizes what I've been thinking for quite a while now. I don't think forcefields and warpgate are limiting game mechanics as much as inject larvae is. When one race's macro mechanic is so far ahead of the other two races that they can max in 12 minutes when undamaged, all other game mechanics become a slave to that. Maps can't be too big because zerg economy is too powerful when it can't be harassed (this is mitigated by warp gate to some extent in ZvP). Zerg defense can't be too strong because it allows this macro mechanic to be exploited. Everything revolves around the most powerful ability in the game - the ability to have a powerful economy quickly.
vileEchoic -- clanvile.com
truthUnderVeil
Profile Joined December 2012
23 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-27 13:03:12
December 27 2012 13:02 GMT
#474
On December 27 2012 19:20 kaluro wrote:

In ZvT It's more ling/bling/ultralisk/infestor than anything, broodlords don't really occur except for late late game and/or versus mech.

In ZvZ I doubt many people go broodlord/infestor, since most people stick with range upgrades and thus infestor/roach/hydra. And when double melee upgrading. ultralisks are really attractive before transferring to broodlords.




I am at a frigging awe how ignorant people are. Brood lord infestor not used in TvZ? Ok!

I guess the guys who made a wiki about it on liquipedia are just weird then:

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Infestor/Corruptor/Brood_Lord_(vs._Terran)
sitromit
Profile Joined June 2011
7051 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-27 14:59:19
December 27 2012 14:57 GMT
#475
The idea that if Terran leaves Zerg's economy untouched, Terran will be at a significant disadvantage is the biggest lie perpetuated in SC2. I'll skip right to the facts, and give an actual example from a very recent game, what many Terrans cite as a nightmare scenario:

12 mins into a TvZ, Zerg is on 3 bases and has 7 Queens with their oh-so-fearsome 5 range, 80 Drones, and Creep halfway across the map. Terran has done a standard Hellion opening, killed 0 Drones, both sides have left each other untouched.

Zerg has 1-1, Spire Finished, 9 Mutalisks and 2 more Queens on their way, baneling Nest, and 52 Zerglings.. Zerg has 146 supply.

The Terran, who is supply blocked by the way, has 137, a mere 9 supply difference, which would probably be even if not for the supply block. Terran is also on 3 bases and has 72 SCVs and 4 Mules mining. 3 Medivacs, 1 Hellion, 5 Tanks, and 29 1-1 Marines.

Income? Terran is ahead by 300 minerals a minute, gas is roughly the same.

These are the facts of the game between DRG and Bomber on Metropolis. So scary that Zerg macro, right? Bomber easily denies DRG's building 4th with a drop, then gets a supply lead after a cost efficient exchange, which he maintains until he eventually wins the game.

sitromit
Profile Joined June 2011
7051 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-27 15:23:15
December 27 2012 15:22 GMT
#476
Let's look at another example, no theorycrafting here, just facts. DRG vs Yoda on Cloud Kingdom, IPL 5:

At 10:45, the first real exchange occurs. DRG attacks Yoda's 3rd with some Speedlings, which Yoda defends with Hellions. At this exact moment, here are the stats:

Terran and Zerg both on 3 bases. Terran has 60 SVCs, 6 Hellions and 22 1-1 Marines. Zerg has 69 Drones, 6 Queens and 38 Zerglings. Supplies are virtually even 106 for Terran, 105 for Zerg.

In that initial attack DRG loses 2 Zerglings and kills nothing. Both sides have killed 0 workers. At 12 minutes, here are the stats:

DRG has lost 6 units, Yoda has lost 1. Supplies 120 vs 135, Yoda is ahead. Wait, I thought Terran couldn't keep up with Zerg macro! Someone tell Yoda to stop making units, he's not supposed to be able to!
Account252508
Profile Joined February 2012
3454 Posts
December 27 2012 15:23 GMT
#477
--- Nuked ---
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
December 27 2012 15:30 GMT
#478
On December 27 2012 23:57 sitromit wrote:
after a cost efficient exchange

Love this delicate way to describe DRG blindly charging his army offcreep in the worst position ever.
sitromit
Profile Joined June 2011
7051 Posts
December 27 2012 15:33 GMT
#479
On December 28 2012 00:30 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2012 23:57 sitromit wrote:
after a cost efficient exchange

Love this delicate way to describe DRG blindly charging his army offcreep in the worst position ever.


This argument is about economy and production, not strategy. DRG made a strategic mistake, lost the game, which is normal. The thing is, people would have you believe, that Zerg can afford to trade cost inefficiently with Terran, which is clearly not the case.
KawaiiRice
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States2914 Posts
December 27 2012 15:42 GMT
#480
there are a lot more things that make zerg broken than just bl infestor... but blizzard is too blind to see any of it.
@KawaiiRiceLighT
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